Death in Apartment 603: Gavin Fish on Ellen Greenberg’s Mysterious Case

[SPEAKER_01]: I just walked the right fireplace.
[SPEAKER_00]: She emptied on the floor with blood everywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, on the cabinets, blood on the countertop, blood on the floor, blood all over her.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ellen Greenberg, she was a 27-year-old.
[SPEAKER_01]: First-grade teacher, was engaged to a guy named Sam.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sam was a catchman.
[SPEAKER_00]: He came from a relationally wealthy Philadelphia family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Extended family had a political power in the area.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sam leads to go to the gym, comes back, and finds her body.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't see anything, she doesn't know there's nothing broken, she's bleep, Ellie.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know where she's bleeding from.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think her head ended up being 20 stab wounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: 10 to the back of her head, 10 to the chest and abdomen.
[SPEAKER_01]: At first, she was ruled a homicide and then something happened and it was changed.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a meeting between two people from the medical examiner's office.
[SPEAKER_00]: Somebody from the DA's office, 10 people from the Philadelphia Police Department.
[SPEAKER_00]: Me changed the matter.
[SPEAKER_00]: Beth from all I said, he seems to have.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was never a person of suspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that true?
[SPEAKER_00]: There is no report that indicates whether there was or was not blood on San Goldberg.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are several things that are inexplicably held by the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her journal or clothing, the knife that was in Ellen's chest was never tested for fingerprints never tested for DNA, a freaking hate corruption, and anytime somebody was obviously murdered and somebody is able to make it go away that bothersome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to Misunderstood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host Rachel Yucatel.
[SPEAKER_01]: So today we are going to discuss the Ellen Greenberg case.
[SPEAKER_01]: This case is a highly controversial and mysterious death that is attracted significant public interest and debate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me tell you the background on this story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Allen Greenberg was a 27-year-old first-grade teacher from Philadelphia who was found dead in her apartment on January 26, 2011, her fiancé at the time Sam Goldberg discovered her body after he returned home and found the apartment door locked from the inside.
[SPEAKER_01]: He forced his way in and found Allen in the kitchen dead from multiple stab wounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: The initial cause of death was ruled as a homicide by the medical examiner due to the nature of the injuries.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ellen had 20 stab wounds, including 10 to the back of her neck and head.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other 10 were in her abdomen and chest.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, this ruling was later changed to suicide by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office, which has led to ongoing controversy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Several factors contribute to the case's complexity and the ongoing debate over whether her death was truly a suicide or a homicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first one is about the wounds and the autopsy findings, Ellen's body had 20 stab wounds, as I mentioned, including some to the back of her head and neck, which is unusual obviously for a suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Additionally, there were signs of hesitation wounds, which are typically associated with suicide attempts, but are uncommon in cases of suicide by stabbing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number two is there was no signs of forced entry.
[SPEAKER_01]: The apartment door was locked from the inside, and there were no signs of forced entries suggesting that no one else had entered the apartment.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number three, the defense wounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some experts have argued the wounds on Ellen's hands and four arms could be interpreted as defense wounds indicating she may have tried to fend off an attacker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number four is her mental health.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ellen was reportedly experiencing anxiety and had been prescribed medication which some have argued could have influenced her mental state.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, those close to her have stated she was absolutely not suicidal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number five, the crime scene investigation itself, critics of the suicide ruling have pointed out to what they perceive as flaws in the crime scene investigation and the subsequent handling of evidence.
[SPEAKER_01]: Number six, legal and family action, Ellen's family has strongly contested the suicide ruling arguing that it was a homicide and have sought to have had the case reopened.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have commissioned independent experts who have also questioned the suicide ruling.
[SPEAKER_01]: The case has been subject of several lawsuits and ongoing legal battles.
[SPEAKER_01]: adding to the complexity, Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro, who was the state's top prosecutor during critical moments in the case, has faced pressure to re-examine the case, but has so far not intervened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also, you may know his name because he was the number one VP pick that people were floating for Kamala Harris.
[SPEAKER_01]: The case remains unsolved right now with many people, including legal experts, forensic pathologists, and the public, divided on what truly happened to Alan Greenberg.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Philadelphia District Attorney's Office has refused to reclassify the case as a homicide and adds of now, it remains classified as suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: The case continues to be a subject of investigation media coverage and public intrigue.
[SPEAKER_01]: So today we have on Gavin Fish, he knows this case inside and out, get ready for my interview
[SPEAKER_01]: Gavin Fish.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for joining me today.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that name, Gavin Fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: I never loved it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's one of those names.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like no one can just say Gavin.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have to say Gavin Fish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gotta say the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gotta say the whole name.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great name.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, thank you for joining me.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is the fascinating story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's so many things misunderstood about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm just, I, I need to pick your brain so much, but before we get into it, I want to know, how did you, you were like the guy that knows everything about this case backwards forwards up down, whatever, how did you get involved with this case?
[SPEAKER_01]: What draw drew you to it?
[SPEAKER_01]: How did you get to know the family just start from the beginning back then how you got involved?
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a beginning youtuber and I had an email come in from a viewer saying,
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, if you like this case that you're covering now, you should check out Ellen Greenberg's case.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's all it took.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh, what is it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Ellen Greenberg, I will take a look.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I ended up doing was just being sucked into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there had been a lawsuit that had been filed that I had a whole bunch of documents.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I purchased those from the Philly courts, spent the next several months just studying them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was completely hooked on the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: So and did you get involved right at the beginning when it happened I mean we don't really remember because none of us were paying attention back then but was it a big case back then as it is now.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, no, it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't get involved until about four years ago, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been going for 13 and a half years.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this past January was the 13th anniversary of Alan's murder.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, no, that the Greenberg's worked and worked and worked trying to just get anybody to take them seriously, your pay attention for years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And nobody would.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So let's just break down what the case is for people that might be joining us right now that I have no idea what we're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want you to explain it but for for a little bit of background, Ellen Greenberg, she was a 27 year old first grade teacher.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that right?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: living in Philadelphia was engaged to a guy named Sam.
[SPEAKER_01]: They lived together one snowy night day, whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her fiance leaves to go to the gym and comes back and finds her body.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was ended up being 20 stab wounds, 10 to the back of her head, 10 to the chest and abdomen.
[SPEAKER_01]: At first it was ruled a homicide and then something happened and it was changed and it was ruled a suicide and this is where it all goes crazy am I correct so far
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, I think it was pretty crazy the very first night.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this January 26th, 2011.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the middle of a nori stir, like you said, huge storm.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the first responders just really want to be there.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what I think happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the, yeah, his story, the story that they got from Sam Goldberg, who was Elang Greenberg's fan say, was, hey,
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, nothing to see here, I was just down in the gym and I come back and the door was locked from the inside.
[SPEAKER_00]: I couldn't get in, tried my darkest to get in and I finally broke in and I found my fiance on the floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: He calls 911 and during the 911 call, he goes, oh my goodness, there is a giant knife stuck in a heart that I haven't seen for the last five minutes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's like this really terrible,
[SPEAKER_00]: acting job.
[SPEAKER_00]: Guy deserves a rassy for it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is the worst.
[SPEAKER_00]: From there, you know, first responders came.
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of the EMSs were like, yeah, we got a murder here.
[SPEAKER_00]: The police took a look at it and were like, I think this might be a suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they treated the crime scene like it was a suicide until the following day when the medical examiner looked at Ellen's body and said there's not just a stab wound to her chest she's been stabbed in the back of her head and neck this is homicide right following that the police
[SPEAKER_00]: did a multi-month campaign publicly in the media in Philadelphia to disprove what the medical examiner was saying.
[SPEAKER_00]: They in the media had this campaign saying, no, this is a suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: Until finally, there was a meeting between the medical examiner, two people from the medical examiner's office, somebody from the DA's office.
[SPEAKER_00]: At least two people as many as 10 people from the
[SPEAKER_00]: Philadelphia police department and they convinced the medical examiner that this was a suicide me changed the matter of death from all I said to suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so I want to talk about that because obviously this is why everyone's, you know, so curious about it because of the way she was stabbed.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's say technically that it was a suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: How does one, I mean, I guess if you have your head, she was found in the kitchen for people that don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So for, and I believe she was cutting up fruit or something is that what they were saying that she was cutting something.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so technically, could it be, let's say that we were on the side of, okay, let's, it is a suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: Could she have put her head down and stabbed herself.
[SPEAKER_01]: like how do you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because even if you have a suicide wish, I would think the pain of stabbing yourself that many times, it's almost like you can't physically do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So explain that to me how it could be possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I can't explain in a believable way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, almost a perfect avatar of Ellen Greenberg.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same height, same weight, same interests as far as like yoga and, you know, fitness and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she was a very good avatar and she and I went through the process of trying to figure it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: How could Ellen do this if?
[SPEAKER_00]: if she wanted to.
[SPEAKER_00]: We couldn't figure out a way that she could.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I have a friend who is a quadruple board certified forensic pathologist.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's a medical examiner.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I talk to him about it, he talks in probabilities, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's like, is it possible?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've seen some stuff Gavin.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess it might be possible.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what is the probability here?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what
[SPEAKER_01]: And not only that there was one of the stabs that severed her cord or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Correct?
[SPEAKER_01]: There was one that was,
[SPEAKER_00]: And it passed this layer called the dura, which is kind of a, it's a membrane that holds fluids and stuff like that in it protects the nervous system and so forth at the bottom of the brainstem.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was discovered to have been punctured and any expert that I've talked to that
[SPEAKER_00]: She wouldn't have been able to continue and we have to assume that if she committed suicide, we have to assume she continued because the knife was in her chest.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and then later on, another pathologist who looked at it who worked for Philadelphia said that she didn't see any vital reaction, which means there wasn't a pulse in her body.
[SPEAKER_00]: There wasn't a blood pressure that would cause it to bleed.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the reasons that she said, one of the reasons that could be is because her heart may have already stopped by them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, all right, here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a bunch of questions about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, what was what did her family and friends and even Sam say was her frame of mind.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, she's in she's the first grade teacher, was she unstable.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, was she upset was she suicidal to people have, you know, knowledge of her of her wanting to commit suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Ellen, Ellen was not depressed.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was seeing a therapist at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the therapist said she was anxious.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was experiencing anxiety.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was no depression.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the weeks previous to her death, had reached out to a couple of people.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had reached out to some of her friends.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she just said that work was just very stressful right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she just wanted to get away from work.
[SPEAKER_00]: She called her parents and said, I'd like to move home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And work is just so stressful.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to just give it up and I want to move home.
[SPEAKER_00]: And our parents were kind of like,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you've got something good going here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's get you a therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you got issues, let's get a therapist.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's help you work your way through this.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she had just started seeing the therapist.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm not diminishing the stress level of being a toddler's teacher for toddlers basically, but I mean, how stressful could that be that you want to give up your job and move home.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious if you really dealt into it if there was more that she was anxious about and it maybe was manifesting as she was anxious about work, but could have been in her relationship or in her mentally and general.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've spent a lot of time thinking about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ellen's body, well, in the autopsy report, it says there are 11 bruises on Ellen's body.
[SPEAKER_00]: That is bull crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not 11 bruises on alms body.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are dozens of bruises on alms body.
[SPEAKER_00]: They're everywhere, including her neck.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's hemorrhaging in her neck.
[SPEAKER_00]: Some of these bruises were old.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were like a week old, 10 days old.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think the evidence points to Ellen being in a very abusive relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as a lay person, just kind of
[SPEAKER_00]: working my way through this, not being a psychologist or a psychiatrist here, I think it seems reasonable that somebody who is going through this kind of abuse would, would buy somebody that they love, right, they're engaged to, right, with maybe she just wasn't able to verbalize it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and so maybe she believed it was work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it was, uh, but in my opinion, she was in a very abusive relationship, a very abusive environment.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was looking for a way out.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was saying that work was, was very difficult.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I only did.
[SPEAKER_00]: She talked to her parents about leaving.
[SPEAKER_00]: She talked to her cousin about leaving.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hey, can I move in with you?
[SPEAKER_00]: She had a cousin who lived in Philadelphia.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the cousin asked, well, are you coming to live with me or are you in Sam coming to live with me?
[SPEAKER_00]: And at that
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's really interesting you bring that up because there's this movie that just came out that's gotten a lot of hype recently called I think it's at it ends with us the Blake lively domestic violence movie.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen it yet?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't seen it yet, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I did and you know, it was interesting because it really does show how you get sucked in and she was engaged to the sky and he starts to abuse her but she was making excuses and even as a viewer watching, you're like, well, did that happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it an accident and how, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: She would justify it and make excuses because she didn't really know if it was abused.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, because no one wants to believe that that can happen to them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also, as a woman who has been engaged, you know, before a couple of times, you know what that's like when you feel like that's final.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like how am I going to get out of this, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like because now everybody assumes that you're going to have to go to the, you're going to get married.
[SPEAKER_01]: to think about how you cancel the wedding, how you tell people that this is no longer a relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: So social pressure has to be immense, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just, again, we're talking about probable things now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And by the way, Sam was like on paper, Sam was a catchman.
[SPEAKER_00]: He came from like a well-to-do Philadelphia family, the generationally wealthy.
[SPEAKER_00]: His parents were well-thought of, his extended family had political power in the area.
[SPEAKER_00]: Josh and Sandy wanted nothing more than for their daughter to fall in love with a nice Jewish boy and have that traditional, you know, Jewish wedding and the whole thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there was, there was so much pressure.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine that
[SPEAKER_00]: that she just didn't know how to deal with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, me too, I can't imagine that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, there maybe there is a probable thing that it wasn't him and it was someone else abusing her at work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know because she's talking verbalizing that she's upset with work and she doesn't want to be there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we don't know where the bruises came from, but to go back to what you were talking about with the bruises, they were not just from the night that she was either murdered or committed suicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's evidence that the bruises were there for weeks or days before, correct?
[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: The medical examiner described it as multiple stages of resolution.
[SPEAKER_00]: So resolution meaning the healing process.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess people could say that that was could be self-inflicted as well, but that's a whole other, you know, I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it could be, but you know, when Sam Goldberg was interviewed, he didn't say anything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so I want to get into his interview because I find that's fascinating that he so I read he was never a person of suspect is that true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, first of all, we've all seen date line and the ID network is like the most popular network.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the ID network.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's always the spouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean, so why and that's the first person that they have to clear.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to get into the fact that
[SPEAKER_01]: we know now that that people are saying there's rumors that his family is connected somehow with the police or with higher ups that maybe got them out of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But just in the first night where you are like, wait a minute, what's happening here?
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to get his statement.
[SPEAKER_01]: Did they bring him down to the police station?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did they even question him as a suspect?
[SPEAKER_00]: There are conflicting stories in the city of Philadelphia has done a very good job over the
[SPEAKER_00]: They just, in the last couple of months, I think the Greenberg's lawyers have something like 5,000 pages of new police documents.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I first started looking into this, I was told, oh, he was led away in handcuffs and he was interviewed at the station.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was by a very good source.
[SPEAKER_00]: But with the new docs that had been coming out, it doesn't appear that that was the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: It appeared that he was questioned.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was not in the, he's not technically in the presence of a lawyer when he was questioned, though.
[SPEAKER_00]: two members of his family who are both powerful on each more of their, but then a few days later, he was brought back to the station and he was represented by men in Brian Monagol.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brian Monagol, represented Bill Cosby, represented Catholic Cardinals, you know, rappers, celebrities, he is one of the most
[SPEAKER_00]: well thought of defense attorneys in the nation and certainly one of the most expensive and in that interview the police weren't allowed to ask Sam very much.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just tell us the story and Sam repeated the story and that was it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and what's interesting about that is if you are completely innocent, you want to find out who did this or you think you know because of what you saw that it's a suicide, why would you hire a very powerful criminal defense attorney.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that's the suspicious to me in general.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't want to be grudge anybody exercising their constitutional rights, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if my, if one of my children was being looked at by the police, you'd better believe that I would have a lawyer present for that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I take your points, pre-suspicious.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't a lawyer, it was Brian Freakin' McMontagal.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the lawyer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, to me Sam has always been the number one suspect, but police disagree with me at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so now let's go into why he seems like the number one suspect.
[SPEAKER_01]: There are a ton of reasons you could detest to them more than me, but the first one to me seems to be the fact that he's already lied about how he got into the apartment, whether or not he was alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: That whole thing seems very suspicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Sam, what happened?
[SPEAKER_00]: The official story according to the reports is that Sam said he went down to the gym to work out.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had their apartment on the sixth floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: The gym was on the first floor.
[SPEAKER_00]: And sure, if when you look at surveillance or the security footage,
[SPEAKER_00]: He appears and he goes down into the gym and he's in there for some time and then he comes up and then we see him coming back down to the lobby several times going back and forth and the story was that He was looking for help getting into the apartment because it was latched from the inside with a swing bar lock kind of like those hotel style locks In fact, I think this building was probably a hotel before it was condos
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the kind of locking mechanism there was.
[SPEAKER_00]: In the report from the Emmys investigator, he says that Goldberg told him that he opened it up in the presence of one of the staff members of the condo complex, or are the apartment complex.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was one of the reasons why the medical
[SPEAKER_00]: Then that proves that Ellen was alone because out on their balcony, which is really like a six inch balcony, it's decorative.
[SPEAKER_00]: Really, it's not a real balcony.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are no footprints in the snow.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nobody's coming in to the right or meant from elsewhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: But so Sam is my number one suspect one because he was alone when he supposedly broke down that door to the locking mechanism was not broken off of the door and I've done several tests to try to figure out how he could have done that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's, that's what I was going to ask you next because I've had an apartment that has that kind of lock that you're talking about.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, those are like impossible to get through number one, unless for some reason the amount of force you pushed into it breaks the actual lock off the wall.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it comes off completely.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't sever the, that thing that comes out in between.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm talking about right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what did the lock look like when people were looking at it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the lock, there are two pieces to it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: There's the part on the door, which is kind of like this post that hangs out, and there's a, actually hand.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what I've been testing with all this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lock that mounts to the door and then on the door jam, there's this swing bar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they go together like that and you're right, when the door opens, it just it latches.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if his story was correct and he broke the door open, then it has to have broken either off of the door jam or off of the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the lock.
[SPEAKER_00]: or both, I guess it could be right.
[SPEAKER_00]: But while the pictures show that it was like, it was forced somehow, it was still attached to both the door and the door jam.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess the conclusion I came to is just that the story that he broke open the door is incorrect.
[SPEAKER_00]: It could not have happened that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but what do you mean by it shows that it was forced like the the screws were Yeah, a couple a couple of screws were kind of coming out a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was it was off of the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was still attached to the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there were there were still screws that were that still had a bite into that door.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if I was a lawyer, I would be thinking, well, shouldn't we call the company that makes this kind of lock?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the reason why they have those locks is so you are secure and know like 25 year old boy can just take his shoulder and knock down that door.
[SPEAKER_01]: That seems incredibly crazy to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's suspicious, obviously.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I think it's this I think the 911 call is suspicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought it was sort of odd that the that the 911 dispatcher who was quite calm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess they always are was like, sir, you need to calm down for us to be able to give you help.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't think he was that over.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she should have had a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, oh, I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm looking at my dead fiance on the ground covered in blood, I'm going to be a little excited.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be like panting and freaking out and not knowing what to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's like apologizing to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just thought that sounded ridiculous.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, um, so I also thought, yeah, he wasn't, you know, he wasn't like breathing heavily enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just thought the whole thing wasn't incredibly crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, in my opinion, I don't even think Sam was in the room when he was talking in 911.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even think he was any weird Alan.
[SPEAKER_00]: He described her positioning to the 911 operator and the positioning was not what police found when they got there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that's another piece of weird evidence that the positioning was different than what he said.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they had talked about blood that was, I guess, dried on her face, correct?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there was let's see what I think it was the left side.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's there's a trail of blood from like her the tip of her nose all the way to her ear, but when they found her she was leaned up against the cabinet so her her head was in the normal like the way my head is now right so if
[SPEAKER_00]: If her head had always been that way, then the blood would have drip down her mouth and chin.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wouldn't have gotten me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So at some point, she was, she was supying, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: She was on her back.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so it's an indication that her body had been moved.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, now this would seem obvious to me that he would just say, listen, I sat her up when I was trying to look at her or, I don't know, he could answer that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also the question would be,
[SPEAKER_01]: wasn't he covered in blood if he tried to give her CPR or if he touched earth, eventually he says on the 911 call.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there's a knife in her chest.
[SPEAKER_01]: You would think that he went to give her mouth to mouth or whatever he was doing, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So was there not a drop of blood on him?
[SPEAKER_00]: The police did not have, well, according to everything that I've seen so far, there is no report that indicates whether there was or was not blood on San
[SPEAKER_01]: That's insane.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now there was another thing that people were are have been done.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's blood everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: On the cabinets, blood on the countertop, blood on the floor, blood all over Ellen.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't like a dexter.
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't like this gory scene, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Most of most of the blood.
[SPEAKER_00]: that she lost, it went internal, I was in her chest cavity.
[SPEAKER_00]: If she hadn't died from, you know, her heart stopping because the knife was in it, she would have browned to death.
[SPEAKER_00]: All her entire chest cavity was just full of blood.
[SPEAKER_00]: She wouldn't have been able to get out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I also think is very upsetting for the parents and then for the for the case in general is that she it was found out that she did have a journal the parents have not been able to see this journal, which I'm assuming means their lawyers or anyone that they need to really see what was her state of mind up until then have not been able to see it now I saw recently in the last week that they were saying the medical examiner or the is the group that has the journal.
[SPEAKER_01]: and they have not, you know, released that to anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would think that that has a ton of evidence pointing one way or the other.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are your thoughts on that on your own?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there are several things that are
[SPEAKER_00]: that are inexplicably held by the police, her journal or clothing or the medical examiner's office.
[SPEAKER_00]: Her journal, her clothing, a couple of personal items are still in the custody of the police, which begs the question.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh, in the state of Pennsylvania, as in every state in the nation, suicide is not a crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, helping somebody to commit suicide is often a crime, but if you were to kill yourself, that is not a crime.
[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, they have no reason to hold anything, because there's...
[SPEAKER_00]: There's officially no crime, but in the state of Pennsylvania, what CA just has the worst laws when it comes to public records, especially exempting the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very difficult to get any type of record out of the police or get anything out of the police.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what they hide behind is this exemption that they can exempt from public disclosure anything related to a criminal investigation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so you can't have it both ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're holding it back because it's a criminal investigation, but you're also saying there's no crime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's been, so I would imagine there might be some in that journal where Ellen maybe was telling other people she was telling her parents or cousin or friends work really sucks, but in her journal where she's telling herself things is a possible that she is telling herself that, yeah, you've got to get out of this relationship and you're getting abused, you got to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: What I also think is really crazy that is that Sam, the fiance, has not made more of, you know, that he hasn't come forward enough to be like, let me explain what I saw.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me explain how a setting this was to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me, you know, because now all we see is that he's never spoken, that he just moved on quite quickly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And within, I think it was three or four years.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was married to someone else.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now has two children or something and lives in New York.
[SPEAKER_01]: city and you know I think it's it's odd that he hasn't made a statement.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that begs the question to me was there and so again probable cause I'm you know what I'm making this up but there is you know there could have been something where they got into an argument he was already seeing this other woman there was you know there was something that was going on because I do think it's odd that if you're Beyonce dies in such a tragic way
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm someone who has been through something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had my fiance killed when I was engaged.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you, I mean, moving on that quick in such a way is, is hard, you know, and so, and if you do do it, there are reasons that you do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: I just would like to know when he met this woman, I would like to know what this woman thinks.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would think that he would be more public about losing this woman who was supposed to be the love of his life, you know?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I guess there are a couple of things that kind of point toward what Sam thinks about these things because you're right, he's never made a statement that publicly he's made his two police statements that I know of and that's that's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number one is in a in a very threatening and intimidating letter that I received from his parents lawyer, the lawyer said that they've
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I don't think there's anything respectful about anything that they've done, but that's what they're claiming, hey, out of respect for Ellen, we are remaining silent, not all these things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number two, Sam's wife who I don't think we need to name here because I think she's in is she's probably innocent and all of this right.
[SPEAKER_00]: kind of person in New York City and she had an article written about her and kind of this mom publication about her, her kids in her daily life and what life is like and she mentioned Sam and that article about, you know, being the support, her support and the love of her life and all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: As soon as Ellen's case started getting a lot of attention, then
[SPEAKER_00]: people started finding where he was and who he's married to, which I don't condone, you know, don't go stock people, don't go docks people like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: That came down immediately.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, yeah, that article was removed from the internet.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I think that I think Sam is pretty content.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the evidence indicates to me that Sam is content just having no light
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, which to me is also odd because if there's nothing fishy there, you would want and and the fact that he knows people think that it could be him so you would you would think he would want to talk about it and say how upset he is by the allegations because it was someone he loved and it was so devastating to witness the end of her life like that I mean that would seem very normal and empathetic to me and make him more human instead it seems like he's just he's living another life and wants nothing to do with it and usually your advice to not say anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: If there could be things you're implicated in, you know what I mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to get to the reason why we all think this has been brought up recently.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there was a light shown on it again when Josh Shapiro was up for possibly being the vice president nominee or whatever recently.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's see and then he wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And people were kind of curious why everyone thought he was a number one pick and then there was some reasons that he wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: some reason, there were a few that came out that you saw in mainstream media, but then kind of behind the scenes you heard it might have been because this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: He, at the time, was the acting, he was the attorney general at the time, correct?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see, when Ellen died, no, he was a member of the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: If I could correctly, I don't know the timeline here of when he was elected and so forth, but eventually the case made it to the Attorney General's office and when it did make it to the Attorney General's office, he was the Attorney General.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he ended up, and it went to the Attorney General's office to look at whether or not it was a homicide or suicide correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of weird how this happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the greenbergs had an attorney that was helping them to try to get justice for Ellen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was eventually elected as the Philadelphia District Attorney.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once he was elected as the DA, he could not look at the case anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: He had a conflict of interest.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he, as required by law, referred it to the AG's office where Josh Shapiro was at the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's the now-argoverner.
[SPEAKER_00]: but yeah, that's how it got there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And basically, they were supposed to look at it and see, has this a homicide or is this a suicide?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because Ellen's parents were kind of pressuring them to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he, he, in fact, said he agreed with the suicide ruling.
[SPEAKER_00]: His office,
[SPEAKER_01]: So to this day, have we ever heard from Josh himself on this or just his office?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's made a comment.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just his office.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and his, see, the thing about Josh Shapiro,
[SPEAKER_00]: Josh Shapiro's connection to this case was made by a viewer of mine who anonymously ticked me off saying, you know, Josh Shapiro has known Sam Goldberg's family for 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: He went to school with her with his cousin and and so I started doing some research on that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when I finally published the results of my research that I think I published it on a Tuesday,
[SPEAKER_00]: through one local news reporter, an awesome reporter, Annie McCormick, released a statement saying, there is no conflict of interest here, but because there's an appearance of a conflict, we're going to go ahead and kick the case out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's how that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my goodness.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so all right, in recent news, we have found out that the Supreme Court has has ruled that they will take a look at this case again.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that correct?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's correct.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now what does that actually mean for the parents that it must be ecstatic over this?
[SPEAKER_00]: They're pretty excited for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't think that they would get this far.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is what's happening in the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are three things happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing is that the Attorney General kicked the case out.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is now in the Chester County DA's office.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Chester County DA is supposedly investigating to see if they believe that this is on the side.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's number one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Number two is the Josh and Sandy Greenberg file the lawsuit against the medical examiner's office.
[SPEAKER_00]: Asking the court to force the medical examiner's office to change the manner of death from suicide to either homicide or undetermined.
[SPEAKER_00]: that mechanism is called man-damous, and it is a very high bar to reach, but courts do have that power.
[SPEAKER_00]: They can say in cases where an official acted egregiously or arbitrarily they can force that official to act properly.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when they filed that lawsuit, the city of Philadelphia appealed to the appellate court saying, we don't think Josh and Sandy have standing to even bring this
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what they're claim.
[SPEAKER_00]: Josh and Sandy weren't injured here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Ellen was injured.
[SPEAKER_01]: Josh and Sandy had no injury in that comment sense that if if somebody's dead, they would have to have someone represent them.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the appellate court in a two to one decision says, we agree with the city.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have standing.
[SPEAKER_00]: However, and it was like, it was like a 33 page opinion.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first half of page was they don't have standing.
[SPEAKER_00]: But now let me tell
[SPEAKER_00]: take a look at this is kind of what it said.
[SPEAKER_00]: So Josh and Sandy appealed that loss to the state Supreme Court and the state's screams decided to take a look at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what's the timeline with this now?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think written briefs from Josh and Sandy side are due in the
[SPEAKER_00]: I have not seen on the docket any deadline for the city's briefs to be filed.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I would imagine this is at least a year, maybe a year and a half before this actually gets to a decision.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the decision would be whether or not it can go to trial or what would the decision actually be the decision would be whether or not Josh and Sandy have standing to bring the case.
[SPEAKER_00]: If they do, then it goes all the way back down to the court where they started.
[SPEAKER_00]: and they're at the very beginning of that case.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then it would just grind its way through that meaning then they can file something against Sam if they want to accuse him then they could file something against the city or the state or whatever for not taking the seriously what could they file?
[SPEAKER_01]: What can you pay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there would be, what it would do is it would, it would go back to, hey, we want mandamus and declaratory relief here.
[SPEAKER_00]: We want you, Mr. Judge, to force Dr. Osborn to say this was not a suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all it will do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then now the third thing that the green birds are doing, kind of in series, now this is they have another lawsuit where they are alleging that the city and the medical examiner's office,
[SPEAKER_00]: endeavor to cover up a murder.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that one is going through the courts right now and what they're hoping is if they can, if they can have success there, then it might reset the statute of limitations where they can bring a civil complaint against somebody who they think may have taken their daughter's life.
[SPEAKER_00]: It also might reset the statute of limitations for wrongful
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the statute of limitations?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the statute and Pennsylvania is two years.
[SPEAKER_00]: It might be three years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it reverses itself and it says it's now a homicide, then can't the police department get involved again.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they can bring him in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if there's enough evidence, they can arrest him, correct?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: If indeed he becomes their suspect, that's what could happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: If, see, officially, well, not officially.
[SPEAKER_00]: Officially, if a medical examiner says this is a suicide, the police can say, well, he can kick rocks.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this is a homicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to invest it as a homicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's going to get an homicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: They could do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But,
[SPEAKER_00]: When you get to court, the defense attorneys would be like, how can you even be saying this is a homicide?
[SPEAKER_00]: The medical examiner's office says it's suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: So effectively, when the medical examiner's office makes that ruling, the case is done.
[SPEAKER_00]: No prosecutors are going to take it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if that now is called a homicide, then maybe the police will go, okay, we've got a suspect here, and then maybe prosecutors would say, I think that I can, I think I'm prosecuted this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know I asked you this off here before, but as a parent, if something happened to my child, I would be going all over the place trying to get.
[SPEAKER_01]: an understanding of what happened forget in the court in the court of public opinion and anything I would just need to know so I'm curious and I know you're friendly with the parents have they gone to the medical examiner and said you have to explain this to me I don't get it I need to understand why you rule that it was a suicide have they gone to Sam who was going to be their son-in-law and said you have to explain to me how this happened and why we shouldn't think that it's you have
[SPEAKER_00]: So I can't speak for them, but there are a couple of things on the record that I could say.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did go and meet with a chief medical examiner, a guy named Sam Gullino.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was the assistant medical examiner, Marlon Osborne's boss.
[SPEAKER_00]: It had been sometime between Ellen's death and the time that they talked with Dr. Galino.
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Galino did talk to them and said that he was going to open up the case and see if Dr. Osborn came to the wrong conclusion.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now what he said under deposition recently was, as soon as Josh and Sandy filed their first lawsuit, he stopped.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, nope, they filed a lawsuit.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I think that's, I think that's crap, personally.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as far as talking with Sam, Josh and Sandy have said publicly that in the year or so after Ellen's death,
[SPEAKER_00]: Sam would call and they would have chats and they would be polite and they would be gracious and Sam would tell them about the things that he's doing and then at the end of every conversation they would say, you know, Sam, we know Ellen wasn't murdered and then there would be an awkward silence and the phone call would end, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So no, they have to mine all as they have not,
[SPEAKER_01]: You mean they would say we know she didn't commit suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do you think is going to happen with this journal?
[SPEAKER_01]: Do they need to file papers to be able to get the journal back?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, can't their lawyer say that they need this journal to be able to have a case?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: Josh and Sandy's lawyers have gotten farther or further than anybody else has ever done, anywhere in the nation that I can find on this kind of case.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Josh and Sandy hear from lawyers all the time, you're wasting your time and money.
[SPEAKER_00]: But here they are about to go to the State Supreme Court on a very important precedent setting case.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think they're pleased with what they've done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Their attorneys, guiding Joe Padraza and his partner, William Trask, these guys are very good.
[SPEAKER_00]: They got a judge, when was that?
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that was last maybe September, October, to agree in this latest lawsuit to discovery.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is how they've gotten all these all this stuff lately.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would imagine that the Joan Will are trying to get other stuff that they're trying to get.
[SPEAKER_00]: For example, one of the things that they
[SPEAKER_00]: earned the right through a judge to get was the knife that was in Ellen's chest was never tested for fingerprints never tested for DNA never tested for any of that and a judge signed off on getting that done right so it's just one step at a time that they're grinding their way through this but I would imagine I'll probably eventually get that journal.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's shocking to hear that the knife was never tested.
[SPEAKER_01]: I also read that there was an issue where a couple days later, the police allowed somebody who is very influential in Sam's family.
[SPEAKER_01]: remind me was he a lawyer I forget but anyways the judge and the uncle of the judge okay so the judge came into the house which I can tell the same situation with his son which was the cousin or whatever and they took two computers they took they said they didn't take a purse but there was things that they were accused of taking and the excuse was they took two computers because Sam needed his computer they didn't know which computer was what and then they ended up giving it to the police.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm curious that the police tested it to see if anything was removed off of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, just so curious about why they were allowed to do certain things yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: The parents weren't allowed to go in and get the journal.
[SPEAKER_01]: And by the way, when was the journal taken?
[SPEAKER_00]: It was, well, that's a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: It probably would have been taken on the 28th or 29th.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what happened here is that the timeline's pretty important.
[SPEAKER_00]: The 26th is when Ellen died.
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, the 27th is when Ellen's autopsy was performed and Marlon Osborne goes you go homicide here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the police are scrambling going, uh, we need to get a search warrant because we've released the crime scene.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they get a search warrant.
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't get to back to the apartment until the 28th.
[SPEAKER_00]: Meanwhile on the 27th,
[SPEAKER_00]: Sam Goldberg's family calls the apartment and says we need to get access to the apartment to get a suit for Sam to wear to the funeral.
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember, everybody involved in this is Jewish Ellen was going to have her funeral quick.
[SPEAKER_00]: according to their custom.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's like, we need a suit.
[SPEAKER_00]: We need to get back into the into the apartment for a suit, which, by the way, is again, crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: These are wealth, go buy a suit.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, but so the, the apartment manager calls the police and says, hey, can I let them in?
[SPEAKER_00]: And the police say, yeah, there's no crime there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she asks, well, what do we do as far, like it's still bloody and everything in there?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the police gave her
[SPEAKER_00]: the number for a professional crime scene clean up company.
[SPEAKER_00]: She provides that number to San Goldberg's family who have to pay for it, and they get that place clean, liquidy split, that day.
[SPEAKER_00]: Professional crime scene clean up was in their cleaning.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: Once it's clean, they go in, they grab Sam's suit, they also grab Ellen's phone, two of Ellen's laptops, her purse, a bunch of other stuff,
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the following day, please come in with the search where and go, what happened here?
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything's clean in here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you guys told us we could clean it up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then where are her digital?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, where's her computer?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where's her phone?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Judge Swartzman has them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the next day, they have to go to Judge Swartzman's and get that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they didn't have any of that stuff for the first, well, it was the third day that they finally got her out and stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I guess vacation I searched it.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no indication they searched anything on our laptop or phone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so those are the questions going forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like what was searched on the phone was there or will there be in the future?
[SPEAKER_01]: And if so, was there anything that was deleted or gotten rid of in general, especially on her phone?
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, the same thing with her journal.
[SPEAKER_01]: When did the police take it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did
[SPEAKER_01]: Sam's family or anyone get to see it before to see if there was anything incriminating on it and then they decided to give it up when they saw that there wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Those would be the questions that I had.
[SPEAKER_01]: And also when did they get the knife?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, listen, if you're going to stab somebody, you probably are smart enough to, you know, use
[SPEAKER_01]: gloves or whatever, but he lived in the apartment, so his fingerprints on it are not uncommon or DNA on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, again, I'm not in forensics.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking, um, so all that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a kitchen knife.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was like a cut co, you know, just kitchen knife.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it was, it'd stand a reason that his DNA and his fingerprints would be on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I would be more suspicious if they're not on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: that's the whole point because if it's been completely, that's why I asked if he had blood on him because the only reason you clean up blood is because you don't want anyone to think that you were around it but he should have had blood on him.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I walked into my house and my fiance was on the floor dead and bloody I would run over to them and be like, you know, where you still, you know,
[SPEAKER_01]: to shake them and touch them whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't stand back and say, oh, I don't want anything to do with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: The last thing that I want to bring up that we haven't talked about yet is 911 was not Sam's first call.
[SPEAKER_01]: The first call was to this judge guy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sort of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was to his cousin came in, came in Schwartzman, who is also a lawyer and Judge Schwartzman's son.
[SPEAKER_00]: uh the he called came in he talked to him for a little while and then there were a couple of calls that he missed from Judge Schwartzman.
[SPEAKER_00]: He then took a call from Judge Schwartzman and then it was only after that call that he called 911.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now according to the letter that I got from the attorney that they they they they didn't like my reporting and so I got a letter from the attorney
[SPEAKER_00]: They admit that Sam, that they spoke to Sam, but it was not, but he was still outside the apartment.
[SPEAKER_00]: He was locked out of the apartment when they taught.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they said that they were on the phone with him when he broke down the door and saw Ellen there and then said, you need to call 911.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that sounds even more suspicious.
[SPEAKER_01]: What does he calling lawyers for?
[SPEAKER_01]: If he doesn't, if he just is trying to get in his apartment and it's what, and it's fiance could be in the shower or sleep.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what are you calling your cousin?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a nor-easter.
[SPEAKER_00]: They live across the city.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you asking them to help you get into your apartment?
[SPEAKER_00]: Come on.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just doesn't hold water to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole we heard Sam scream out, cry out, when he saw Ellen on the floor and told him to call 911.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I mean, when we look at the lock evidence, when we look at the evidence of her body being moved, they're being kind of a clean up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, I don't buy that explanation at all.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think it was really unwise of them to even say that in the letter.
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought that was the worst loyering.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now that this case is getting a lot of attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's been on news nation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's been everywhere, but people are really taking an interest in it and want to bring it to light.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there any way that it can move forward that if somebody with a lot of power says, wait a minute, especially in Philadelphia, Josh Shapiro, or you know, anyone says, wait a minute, we really have to look at this more closely.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm interested in it, even somebody in the police department, or do we now have to go through this Supreme Court to listen to what
[SPEAKER_00]: No, wow, that is a good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody asks the right questions in this case.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a really good question.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there is something that can be done right now by somebody who has power.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is the Chester County DA.
[SPEAKER_00]: The Chester County DA has the file, has the entire file.
[SPEAKER_01]: And should be, somebody could reopen this if they so choose.
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to wait for the Supreme Court to make a ruling a year from now.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they could do that right now, but what happened was when the case was referred out of the AG's office and referred back down to DA, Crasner and Philadelphia law required him to to kick it somewhere else, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He still had the conflict of interest.
[SPEAKER_00]: He chosen anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: He could have chosen like Claryon County or, you know, eerie county or any, he could have chosen
[SPEAKER_00]: His next door neighbor, who was a DNA named Deb Ryan, who was running for a judgeship.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had political ambitions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So she, it was referred to a person with political ambitions who was raised in the same area, went to the same synagogue as Sam Goldberg's family.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's so many connections to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was elected as a commonwealth judge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brian, I can't remember his name right now, but ever since he's taken office, there's just been crickets out of the Chester County's dea's office.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, there it sits just languishing until somebody powerful enough can get him to do something.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully, all the new, you know, attention to this case will not go away.
[SPEAKER_01]: People will still keep asking questions and put pressure on someone that has some influence to reopen this case.
[SPEAKER_01]: That would be amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anything else that I'm missing that that we should talk about before I let you go now.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think we covered it pretty well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that you come back when there is more to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyone that has more questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell them how they can go and find out you're covering this every week, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: You, you talk.
[SPEAKER_00]: I cover it a lot, man.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, you can find me on my website, Gavinfish.com or on YouTube at Gavinfish.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just very easy to find me everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you read your DMs?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if people have questions, if people have suggestions, where can they reach you?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go to my website, Gavinfish.com, there's a contact page there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can, you can even reach out to me anonymously.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's actually anonymous.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is how a lot of this stuff has kind of moved along.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had viewers that anonymously reach out to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, if you're on Twitter, you're on Instagram, you can DM me and I take a look at all that too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and I hope at some point this pressure is going to make some people that are associated with this have to make a statement, whether it be Sam, whether it be Josh Shapiro.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm really interested how they can come up with this idea that suicide is the right answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just seems far-fetched.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it is the answer, you would think that they would want to be more transparent about it and say, but guys, this is why we came up with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: reasoning and let me explain it to you so you really get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?
[SPEAKER_01]: It just seems like that would be the way that they would handle it as opposed to just being silent because all that does in the absence of some acknowledgment people just come up with a bunch of other ideas, you know, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another quick question, are you covering any other cases that we should be following with you?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, yes, there are several cases in the bear of the same kind of hallmarks that Ellen's case have I hate corruption, I just a freaking hate corruption and anytime somebody was obviously murdered and somebody is able to make it go away that bothers me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a case in Minnesota right now where a young man like
[SPEAKER_00]: had oil poured on him and he was lit a flame.
[SPEAKER_00]: He died by being burned to death.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they called it a suicide.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the crime scene photos seemed to indicate that there was foul play there.
[SPEAKER_00]: So his name is David Elmquist.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a case in New York State where a young woman who was a heroin addict and she was a sex worker was murdered and shoved into a garbage can and frozen solid in the New York winter.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Emmy's office called it an overdose, though she had no metabolites of any drug in her system.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are, there are a lot of cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go to my website, there are so many cases that I care about, I'd love to talk to them sometime.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to take a look at that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure we're going to have you back on to talk about a couple of these.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_01]: We'll stay in touch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.
[SPEAKER_00]: I look forward to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening to Ms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Understood.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.