Aquatic Botany with Casey Williams

<v Speaker 1>Be a lot of bad words. They're normally it depends
<v Speaker 1>if I'm on one or not. Anyway, Welcome to the
<v Speaker 1>Crime Pays but body as a podcast. I'm here with
<v Speaker 1>aquatic botanist Casey Williams. Casey, are you there, guy?
<v Speaker 2>I am here.
<v Speaker 1>Okay. I had a beautiful, beautiful, fucking San Marcos, the
<v Speaker 1>first stef bomb. Beautiful fucking San Marcos, Texas. God damn it.
<v Speaker 2>All right, hopeful one hundred hundred degrees right now?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're one hundred. We're oh shit, I think we're
<v Speaker 1>going to be one hundred and one. I don't know.
<v Speaker 1>I don't know anyway. So how are you doing? Yeah? Man,
<v Speaker 1>what's what's going on today?
<v Speaker 2>Good? Not much. Finished watering all my plants for the day,
<v Speaker 2>so I'm good for at least a little tomorrow.
<v Speaker 1>Uh and uh and so what are you You were
<v Speaker 1>doing surveys? Well, you you. I spoke with you a
<v Speaker 1>few days ago and you sent me a video of
<v Speaker 1>yourself of you guys planting some stuff. And then I
<v Speaker 1>know you're doing surveys for is Zania as well. Is
<v Speaker 1>that is that correct?
<v Speaker 2>Right? Yeah? So one of the one of my main
<v Speaker 2>jobs is mapping Texas wild race, which is one of
<v Speaker 2>our federally endangered aquatic plants that we have in Texas.
<v Speaker 2>There's two Texansonia. Yeah, and it's only found in the
<v Speaker 2>same Marcus River. That's its since our global populations. So
<v Speaker 2>I'm at the global population of this species at least
<v Speaker 2>once a year and have now twenty tomes I think.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Man, the San Marcos River is absolutely intoxicatingly gorgeous.
<v Speaker 1>I hate this storges that my four year old daughter
<v Speaker 1>shit in it four days ago. She was really sad
<v Speaker 1>about it. I think she thought I'd be mad, but
<v Speaker 1>then I was like, it's like the perfect place to
<v Speaker 1>take a shit. Just don't tell me, you know, maybe
<v Speaker 1>to fishal eat it. But but got it. It is
<v Speaker 1>a beautiful it's it's so beautiful. I mean, the water
<v Speaker 1>is so clear, and that is presumably because it's all
<v Speaker 1>coming out of the aqua fer it's all coming out
<v Speaker 1>of the limestone, right right.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So it's of course Awquarford, I mean, pretty similar
<v Speaker 2>to what you see in Florida. Uh, and and so
<v Speaker 2>we have kind of the same type of plant diversity
<v Speaker 2>and and lots of endangered species because it is so
<v Speaker 2>clean and clear and it's continuously flowing and.
<v Speaker 1>So but it's I mean when it's it's literally coming out.
<v Speaker 1>I mean the base rock there is all literally tatious limestone,
<v Speaker 1>and so limestone is very porous, and it also reacts
<v Speaker 1>with a scenic rain water, and so you get basically
<v Speaker 1>these huge underground caves that are filled with water.
<v Speaker 2>Right right, And those underground caves have four or five
<v Speaker 2>truglobtic species that most of them are endangered as well,
<v Speaker 2>and then we have several species on the surface that
<v Speaker 2>are endangered.
<v Speaker 1>What was it?
<v Speaker 2>Troglodit, trugle, truglobitic, cave.
<v Speaker 1>Dwelling, troglobitic. There we go, Okay, what's what's troglodyte?
<v Speaker 2>What is that?
<v Speaker 1>Why am I getting that confused?
<v Speaker 2>Truggled trugled I know, I know, I.
<v Speaker 1>Know, Okay, I know, but I'm thinking of trog lo dyte.
<v Speaker 1>Now see, I'm going off with my own little eighty.
<v Speaker 1>I told you I was gonna be on one today,
<v Speaker 1>especially in prehistoric times, A person who lived in a cave. Okay,
<v Speaker 1>so troglodyte is a human who lives in a cave.
<v Speaker 1>Troglobitic is a cave dwelling. Uh, animal.
<v Speaker 2>I guess it would be trugled, trugled, truggled dyte. It's
<v Speaker 2>still that's a person. That's the person.
<v Speaker 1>Troglobitic hold on little bit, oh god, troglo bite. I
<v Speaker 1>don't know, man, I'm getting sorry. Okay, no, no, you're right,
<v Speaker 1>trog little bit, troglobe animal. And so okay, I just
<v Speaker 1>in case I insult someone, In case I insult someone
<v Speaker 1>or make it self deprecating joke, I need to know
<v Speaker 1>these things, okay. So anyway, and and the species. There's
<v Speaker 1>a blind catfish. There's what else do we have?
<v Speaker 2>There's a scorpion, blind salamon er, blind blind shrimp, a
<v Speaker 2>couple of blind.
<v Speaker 1>What about the scorpion, the pseudoscorpion.
<v Speaker 2>I don't that's not aquatic. So I don't really know
<v Speaker 2>much about the pseudoscorpion.
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I see what you're talking about. You only pay
<v Speaker 1>attention to the aquatic, your species. Okay, Well that's why
<v Speaker 1>I wanted. That's why I wanted. It's exactly why I
<v Speaker 1>wanted to have you on, because you are I'm so
<v Speaker 1>brained that when it comes to aquatic plants and I
<v Speaker 1>just kind of turn off. I mean, I respond to them.
<v Speaker 1>The same way I do to carricks normally, which you know,
<v Speaker 1>there's some cool carracks, right, but there's mostly I'm just like, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>I don't care. I just I just don't. There's there's
<v Speaker 1>no I've only got so much bandwidth not paying attention
<v Speaker 1>to carricks. But aquatic thing with us and yeah, yeah, yeah, no, totally,
<v Speaker 1>that's awesome. I think that's awesome you do that. That's
<v Speaker 1>why I wanted to talk to because it's like, man,
<v Speaker 1>you know, we're goude opposite, But aquatics, man, they're really cool.
<v Speaker 1>And it's when you when you go beneath that water surface,
<v Speaker 1>there's a whole other world down there of these you know,
<v Speaker 1>many lineages just even just taxonomically that that have just
<v Speaker 1>done their whole evolution in water. And then there's lineage
<v Speaker 1>there's like terrestrial lineages that have adapted to an aquatic
<v Speaker 1>lifestyle too. So how did you get what got you
<v Speaker 1>into aquatics?
<v Speaker 2>Man?
<v Speaker 1>Like, why did you pick this this field of botany?
<v Speaker 2>Well, good question, I mean I guess like most people,
<v Speaker 2>I hung out as a little kid down by the
<v Speaker 2>creek kitchen ted poles and shrimp and catfish and stuff,
<v Speaker 2>and so I always knew I wanted to do something
<v Speaker 2>with aquatics, and when it came time to to start
<v Speaker 2>looking for colleges, I chose Texas State, which has a
<v Speaker 2>great aquatic biology program. Of course, I thought I wanted
<v Speaker 2>to be a marine biologist and that I changed my
<v Speaker 2>mind on that and I decided to go with freshwater
<v Speaker 2>and I went through the quid oology program. Of course,
<v Speaker 2>just like most programs, it's more related to fish and animals,
<v Speaker 2>and I tried taking some botany classes, but they actually
<v Speaker 2>canceled their botany program when I signed up for the class,
<v Speaker 2>and so I went through the zoology route. And you know,
<v Speaker 2>then I thought, oh, I want to be a fisheres
<v Speaker 2>manager and do a deal of fish. And then I
<v Speaker 2>thought I wanted to work on an aquaculture farm. And
<v Speaker 2>I did both of those jobs, and I realized it
<v Speaker 2>really wasn't what I wanted to do. And I've always
<v Speaker 2>liked plants, and so I finally just came to a
<v Speaker 2>realization that I should add my native plant knowledge with
<v Speaker 2>what I went to school with, which is aquatics, and
<v Speaker 2>put them together. And you got aquatic plants.
<v Speaker 1>Because there's not many people that study this stuff or
<v Speaker 1>that you know, are interested in aquatics that I know.
<v Speaker 2>No, Now, most of the research on aquatic plants are
<v Speaker 2>on the invasives and how to kill them, and so
<v Speaker 2>really the native, the native aquatic botany, it gets vastly
<v Speaker 2>underrepresented both in the herbariums and the literature collections. There's
<v Speaker 2>you know, most of the collections I look at are
<v Speaker 2>the last spstimost collected fifty years ago of certain population,
<v Speaker 2>and so people just don't really pay attention, and they
<v Speaker 2>haven't really for a century. It's just kind of been
<v Speaker 2>kind of been skipped over, and most everything is all
<v Speaker 2>the money goes to trying to figure out how to
<v Speaker 2>control and manage and and combat or non native species.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So because there's would you say there's a lot
<v Speaker 1>of there's a higher number of invasives almost in the waterways.
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, aquatic invasive plants are They're quite common,
<v Speaker 2>and most of them come through their querium and the
<v Speaker 2>pine trades over the years, and uh, and they cause
<v Speaker 2>huge problems. I mean Slovenia and Texas and Louisiana basically
<v Speaker 2>can take over a lake in a couple of months
<v Speaker 2>and meaning you have no surface water at all, it's
<v Speaker 2>all plant. And so they spend a lot of time
<v Speaker 2>and effort trying to combat that because people want.
<v Speaker 1>To use the Lake Selvina. That's a fern, right, it
<v Speaker 1>is a fern. Yeah, where is it from? And do
<v Speaker 1>you know what keeps it in check habitat? Because you know,
<v Speaker 1>like most invasive they're only invasive because they don't have
<v Speaker 1>their checks and balances here because they evolved for forty
<v Speaker 1>million years in a far desperate ecosystem.
<v Speaker 2>Sure, and uh and you see that even see that
<v Speaker 2>with native aquatics. Once they once they kind of get
<v Speaker 2>into a new niche and habitat, they can become quite
<v Speaker 2>a nuisence. But uh, I guess Alvinia came from South
<v Speaker 2>America and they really they have a little bit of
<v Speaker 2>herbicide control. But what they're really trying for on that
<v Speaker 2>one is biocontrol, and they have a weevil that they use.
<v Speaker 2>I am not an expert on Slovenia biocontrol, but you know,
<v Speaker 2>I've dabbled in research and reading literature and talked to
<v Speaker 2>people over the years, but the evil seems to be
<v Speaker 2>pretty effective. And so I think that's kind of the
<v Speaker 2>route they're they're trying to go on that one.
<v Speaker 1>H And so, but a lot of this stuff is
<v Speaker 1>just brought over again, and like the aquarium as aquarium hobbyists,
<v Speaker 1>so it seems like it would be you could make
<v Speaker 1>the point for the aquarium people like, hey, you know,
<v Speaker 1>you really got me one. Be careful, don't dump shit
<v Speaker 1>in the lake when you're done with it, but also
<v Speaker 1>like show a preference for native species if you can.
<v Speaker 2>Sure. Yeah, and I mean this isn't a new problem.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think aquarium and point people get a
<v Speaker 2>bad rap for dumping and stuff. But most of these
<v Speaker 2>aquatic invasives, these are old species that have been in
<v Speaker 2>the quarium hobby from the beginning because they are tolerant
<v Speaker 2>and they were easy to keep in the aquarium and
<v Speaker 2>pond hobby. So obviously they were really popular, you know,
<v Speaker 2>in the forties and fifties, and they've been in the
<v Speaker 2>United States since about that time because they were shipped
<v Speaker 2>over so early. Yeah, I don't know, I mean, I
<v Speaker 2>guess we are getting a few new introductions. I'm not
<v Speaker 2>really up to date on what's new. I think, uh,
<v Speaker 2>some stuff from Africa and Asia are probably getting sent over.
<v Speaker 2>But but yeah, generally it's really not a new problem.
<v Speaker 2>These are species that have been here for quite a while.
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, yeah, yeah, but and so, and what are
<v Speaker 1>some of the natives that are you know, that are
<v Speaker 1>still there, because there's quite a bit of natives that
<v Speaker 1>are still thriving, right And like San Marcos River, like
<v Speaker 1>some of the major rivers of Texas, like near Pa, So.
<v Speaker 2>San Marcus is a hot spot for aquatics. I would
<v Speaker 2>say it probably has the most aquatic plant diversity west
<v Speaker 2>of the Mississippi, probably probably second only to Florida and
<v Speaker 2>North America. And I mean when I mapped it originally
<v Speaker 2>as a grad student, we vouchered everything, so every species
<v Speaker 2>we saw, and I think we had like thirty thirty
<v Speaker 2>thirty five aquatic species. About about half of those were
<v Speaker 2>non native or naturalized in the other half were native species.
<v Speaker 2>And so you have I mean, you don't really have
<v Speaker 2>anything super special on the San Marcus except for the
<v Speaker 2>wild rice. But it's just such a great habitat that
<v Speaker 2>you have a concentration of a lot of things in
<v Speaker 2>one area where normally those would not be all growing together.
<v Speaker 2>So that's really what makes it and interesting thing going
<v Speaker 2>back to Sant Marcus, which is kind of messed up,
<v Speaker 2>is that there was an aquarium company that operated on
<v Speaker 2>the same Marcus River in the forties, and they actually
<v Speaker 2>imported aquarium plants from Europe and Asia and planted them
<v Speaker 2>in the river to grow, and then they would go
<v Speaker 2>through and harvest those plants and sell them to the
<v Speaker 2>quium industry.
<v Speaker 1>That's crazy.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they didn't have to grow them. They just let
<v Speaker 2>them grow grow wild because it was perfect habitat. They
<v Speaker 2>would just go through and harvest them. And so that's
<v Speaker 2>how we get a lot of our non natives in
<v Speaker 2>the same Marcus Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think I think Patrick had told me that,
<v Speaker 1>but I mean, it's it's it's just one of those
<v Speaker 1>moments where you're like, holy shit, that's so crazy, that's
<v Speaker 1>so bad, you know, But you know whatever, I mean. People, Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>there was no ecology back then, you know, so there
<v Speaker 1>was no understanding. It was like the bottom of the
<v Speaker 1>brain stem understanding of how the biosphere works. But so, okay,
<v Speaker 1>so we've got all these most of the rivers in
<v Speaker 1>the region starting up in the northwest part of the
<v Speaker 1>state will not start they start out of state, and
<v Speaker 1>then they they run southeast to the Gulf. And so
<v Speaker 1>when they're running southeast to the Gulf, they've kind of
<v Speaker 1>they've got to go through that big lump in the center,
<v Speaker 1>which is the Edwards Plateau. It's that you know country
<v Speaker 1>Edwards Plateau uplift right with what they call the Hill country,
<v Speaker 1>which is just all this cretaceous limestone and limestone of
<v Speaker 1>course reacts with rain water and river water which is
<v Speaker 1>mildly acidic, and that dissolves the limestone and crazy all
<v Speaker 1>these cave systems. So the Edwards Plateau kind of acts,
<v Speaker 1>does it kind of act like a filter in a.
<v Speaker 2>Way for some of this stun It filters. Yeah, So
<v Speaker 2>the water is exceptionally clear and pure. It's most Edwards
<v Speaker 2>aquiver springs are you know, stable temperature sixty eight to
<v Speaker 2>seventy four year round, so that provides and that's almost tropical.
<v Speaker 2>Well we think it's cold, you know, to us when
<v Speaker 2>we get in, but generally your tropical aquarium is you know,
<v Speaker 2>around seventy to seventy five, so it's tropical temperatures and
<v Speaker 2>that allows a lot of you know, these non native
<v Speaker 2>and native plants to grow year round. But really the
<v Speaker 2>main thing is with all that limestone and dissolved limestone,
<v Speaker 2>it really gives you really high dissolved CO two and
<v Speaker 2>so that is really that's really the main thing that
<v Speaker 2>drives the photosynthesis that the plants need and allows them
<v Speaker 2>to grow and large quantities and very healthy. So it's
<v Speaker 2>really the dissolved to riving.
<v Speaker 1>They've got more access to CO two than they would
<v Speaker 1>if it was.
<v Speaker 2>Just absolutely yes. And not only is it not only
<v Speaker 2>is it just CO two high ambient CO two, but
<v Speaker 2>it's it's continually replenished.
<v Speaker 1>Because it's literally carbonate that's coming from the calcium carbonate
<v Speaker 1>rocks and the limes.
<v Speaker 2>Dire yes, yes and so, and the and the moving water,
<v Speaker 2>you know, generally an aesthetic what we call a loaded state.
<v Speaker 2>As the plants use CO two, then they would their
<v Speaker 2>bottleneck is is using up all the CO two faster
<v Speaker 2>than it can be replenished. But in a river with
<v Speaker 2>the spring carstic spring, there's no limitation on CO two.
<v Speaker 2>I'm measured I measured CO two at thirty ppt in
<v Speaker 2>the San Marcus and generally you're you're people were trying
<v Speaker 2>to strive for ten to fifteen, you know, to get
<v Speaker 2>a good photosynthesis, so.
<v Speaker 1>Like they want to they want to get it as
<v Speaker 1>high as ten.
<v Speaker 2>Or fifteen, and it's really hard. It's hard to get
<v Speaker 2>CO two dissolved into into water. And so yeah, so
<v Speaker 2>it's just the optimal condition.
<v Speaker 1>And what and what is PPT and how do you
<v Speaker 1>measure it.
<v Speaker 2>Parts per thousand? Well you can do it tautration. There's
<v Speaker 2>I use a meter, there's a p h uh, there's
<v Speaker 2>a pH temperature. Now there's a formula if you can
<v Speaker 2>use I'm missing my missing my chemistry right now.
<v Speaker 1>But okay, yeah, it's fine. But either way, the point
<v Speaker 1>is is this is a really rich environment for aquatic plants.
<v Speaker 1>They're they're happy as a pick and ship and they're
<v Speaker 1>just thriving because they've got access to all this all
<v Speaker 1>this dissolved CO two for photosynthesis.
<v Speaker 2>Right, And and the kicker is the some aquiet plants
<v Speaker 2>can actually use by carbonate and so if they have
<v Speaker 2>low CO two, they can kick over to bicarbonate utilization. Well,
<v Speaker 2>I mean the same arc as it's high and by
<v Speaker 2>carbonate too, So they're just happy as a clam both ways.
<v Speaker 1>So CO two and bicarbonate are both products of the
<v Speaker 1>weathering of limestone. Yes, damn god, that is so cool.
<v Speaker 1>So again we're seeing geology.
<v Speaker 2>Is very closely closely related to the geology of the system.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so I want to talk about Designia Texana, but
<v Speaker 1>first I want to talk about some of the common
<v Speaker 1>plants that you'll see that are aquatics, you know, like
<v Speaker 1>and a lot of these too. I noticed like Heterantherra
<v Speaker 1>dubia is that's all over eastern North America. I mean
<v Speaker 1>it goes on up at the Canada. Yeah, not many
<v Speaker 1>plants have a range like that, you know, far south Texas.
<v Speaker 2>And then also you know, actually there's there's quite a
<v Speaker 2>few Texas plants that we share with the aquatic plants
<v Speaker 2>that have really well, well, aquatic plants in general have
<v Speaker 2>really wide distributions.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, like like for terrestrial,
<v Speaker 1>for a terrestrial plant to do that, that's really kind
<v Speaker 1>of unheard up right, There's some but not really.
<v Speaker 2>Right, and we share. We share. Pontideria, I mean, Pontaderia
<v Speaker 2>will go from the coast. I mean I found the
<v Speaker 2>western population of Pontideria just north of Corpus Christie and
<v Speaker 2>they look they look very different than the Pontideria in
<v Speaker 2>the eastern US. And but that species will go from
<v Speaker 2>Corpus Christie along the Gulf all the way up to Maine.
<v Speaker 2>You grew up to Maine and there's planted area and
<v Speaker 2>the rivers up there, So that's just a huge distribution
<v Speaker 2>families Pontidia and it'll be the same family of veteran Thera.
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the order on that one.
<v Speaker 1>Oh it's conal's what the fuck?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Interesting?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Yeah, I am not. I'm so on familiar with
<v Speaker 1>with so many aquatic plants, I mean, and that's what
<v Speaker 1>makes it kind of exciting for me to go out
<v Speaker 1>to a place like San Marcos River because I'm just like,
<v Speaker 1>oh shit, I gotta I gotta like log all this
<v Speaker 1>stuff so I can learn it right right. So like
<v Speaker 1>that heteranthroidubia, So this is a yellow flower, yellow with
<v Speaker 1>the plated Yeah, with these and what's what's up with
<v Speaker 1>the filaments? The filaments look kind of inflated almost, I.
<v Speaker 2>Know, I'm not sure. I don't know if it has
<v Speaker 2>something to do with pollination. And that's the third thing
<v Speaker 2>with the aquatics, we really don't know what the natives,
<v Speaker 2>at least really all of the pollinators. I've done some
<v Speaker 2>research on like collected pollinators on waterlilies and a few
<v Speaker 2>other things, but the literature is really limited when it
<v Speaker 2>comes to pollinations like insect pollinations.
<v Speaker 1>Things panthotheria, cordatta where and I see that I saw
<v Speaker 1>that in Miami. Weird. Yeah, God damn. Some of these
<v Speaker 1>are so okay, So how do a lot of these,
<v Speaker 1>I mean these things, like, how has a lot of
<v Speaker 1>pollination done on these aquatics? There's some that bloom right
<v Speaker 1>at the service, which seems easier, right, but then there's
<v Speaker 1>some that also bloom under water.
<v Speaker 2>Right. So so you're what I would call your true
<v Speaker 2>specialized aquatics generally family hydro cat Beula hydrilla non native hudula,
<v Speaker 2>and then Ballistaria or native americana hydro ca.
<v Speaker 1>So is that like it looks like hydro charita or what? Yeah, okay, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>but I know what you mean. I just just for
<v Speaker 1>people listening so they can look it up if they
<v Speaker 1>want to do so.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that's how drilla, the frog bit family, their
<v Speaker 2>watertime family is the common name. But uh Adulla and
<v Speaker 2>then Vallisneria americana is native to you know states, and
<v Speaker 2>those pretty much have hydrophilis pollination, so they'll have either
<v Speaker 2>dioecious and adrillia. You can't have monoecious plants, but they'll
<v Speaker 2>have a stamina and a pistil pistolate flower, and the
<v Speaker 2>pistillate flower will come up to the surface and form
<v Speaker 2>like a funnel, and then the staminate flower will stay
<v Speaker 2>submerged or at least iron of the water. It'll produce
<v Speaker 2>a pollen packet, and the pollen packet slope to the
<v Speaker 2>surface and then this is.
<v Speaker 1>Blowing up pollen pack Wait wait wait wait wait wait, wait,
<v Speaker 1>hold on, we got to get pollen packets. What's going on.
<v Speaker 1>Here's what's about the palm packets.
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the physiology of the exact pollen packet.
<v Speaker 2>It's just a bundle of pollen assume.
<v Speaker 1>Analogous to like pollinia and orchids or milk weeds or something.
<v Speaker 2>I I, yeah, I don't know the origin. But they float,
<v Speaker 2>and I'm assuming it's to keep the pollen at least
<v Speaker 2>together enough in the water column so they don't just
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't just scatter all over the place, but they'll
<v Speaker 2>they'll flow to the surface. You have to have a
<v Speaker 2>little bit of water movement, and then those pollen packets
<v Speaker 2>will kind of funnel into the bissolet flower, and then
<v Speaker 2>the pacific flower, once it's pollinated, it will spiral like
<v Speaker 2>a spiral, and it will contract so that the seeds
<v Speaker 2>are held underneath the water, and then when the fruit
<v Speaker 2>is mature, it will release the seed and so that
<v Speaker 2>the seed falls you know, closer to the sediment rather
<v Speaker 2>than getting washed away. Yeah, and it's a really interesting
<v Speaker 2>I got a great photo of it occurring the other
<v Speaker 2>day in my in my plants for Valestaia.
<v Speaker 1>All this shit is fascinating to me because it's just
<v Speaker 1>I mean, again, this is a whole fucking world that
<v Speaker 1>that is so off my radar. Like I look at
<v Speaker 1>like I'm looking at a picture of a plant in
<v Speaker 1>hydro caretas right now, and I'm like, it just looks like,
<v Speaker 1>you know, an aquarium plant. I mean, it's like my
<v Speaker 1>dumb ass take on it because I don't know, you know,
<v Speaker 1>but like kind of the shiny kind of waxy leaves,
<v Speaker 1>imbricate leaves, Like it just looks like, you know, like
<v Speaker 1>if someone in like a factory on the outskirts of
<v Speaker 1>Beijing was told to like dream up like a mold
<v Speaker 1>for a plastic aquarium plant, they would say that's what
<v Speaker 1>they would look like.
<v Speaker 2>You know, Yes, they look very they look very similar.
<v Speaker 2>It's not hard to pass off a plastic aquarium plant
<v Speaker 2>because the native the actual quarium plants look very plastic
<v Speaker 2>light so familiar.
<v Speaker 1>What happens to these leaves, like when a plant evolves
<v Speaker 1>to living underwater, what happens to the leaves? Are they
<v Speaker 1>coated in a like what happens to the cuticle? Are
<v Speaker 1>they coated in a different substance? Like what's going on here?
<v Speaker 2>So we so the plants, so the true we call
<v Speaker 2>the true aquatics. Again, like there's can be submerged plants,
<v Speaker 2>they can be amphibious plants if they're If they're submerged plants,
<v Speaker 2>generally they have no cuticle, and nor do they have stomata. Ever,
<v Speaker 2>they don't need stomata, so they stay translucent.
<v Speaker 1>Ult because they're just the because they take in.
<v Speaker 2>They take it straight through the cell membrane, and so
<v Speaker 2>they'll also they'll also take up nutrients through their tissues
<v Speaker 2>instead of their roots. It's really hard for nutrients if
<v Speaker 2>you're underwater. You have to think about how dense that
<v Speaker 2>water medium is, and so it's really hard for gases
<v Speaker 2>and nutrients to move through the water. And so the
<v Speaker 2>path of least resistance for the submerged plants at least
<v Speaker 2>is to just not I mean, they still use their
<v Speaker 2>roots for nutrient uptake, but really it's easier just to
<v Speaker 2>do away with the cuticle and just take in nutrients
<v Speaker 2>and gases.
<v Speaker 1>Yeahs are kind of obsolete, am. Yeah, they're just active
<v Speaker 1>anchors because it's i mean kind of like similar to
<v Speaker 1>what tilanzi is do. It's like they just exactly absorb
<v Speaker 1>it directly, so there's no so most of them don't
<v Speaker 1>have a.
<v Speaker 2>Cuticle must as far as I know. Yeah, they'll be
<v Speaker 2>really translucent. I mean you can see, especially on amphibious plants.
<v Speaker 2>If if there's an amphibious plant that's kind of in
<v Speaker 2>an intermittent stage between emergent and submerged based on the
<v Speaker 2>water level or the life cycle, they will have boossets
<v Speaker 2>of leaves. They will have the aerial thick you know,
<v Speaker 2>normal leaves that we're familiar with, and the leaves at
<v Speaker 2>the bottom rink the water will be almost translucent. And
<v Speaker 2>this is retally different.
<v Speaker 1>We're talking about amphibious stuff, yes, like stuff that like
<v Speaker 1>pops up like like like.
<v Speaker 2>Kind of doors. The kind of dorius is a good one.
<v Speaker 2>Uh uh al.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, yeah, yeah, we should talk. We're gonna that's the
<v Speaker 1>whole fucking order we should talk about. You say Alisma Tasi,
<v Speaker 1>I say Elismetallis. It doesn't matter, Yeah, it doesn't matter who.
<v Speaker 1>Anyone who's gonna, you know, correct your landin deserves a
<v Speaker 1>kick in the nuts, and they probably will have nuts.
<v Speaker 1>It'll probably be a dude doing it, just to let
<v Speaker 1>anyone out there know, it'll probably be some fucking man anyway.
<v Speaker 1>But but elizamth Tale's is a huge order of aquatic plants.
<v Speaker 1>But getting back to the cuticle thing, you know, like
<v Speaker 1>on both ends of like the cuticle thickness spectrum, very thin,
<v Speaker 1>very thick, you have. For me, it's incredible because I'm
<v Speaker 1>used to dealing with desert plants where water is in
<v Speaker 1>short supply. It's like complete opposite of aquatics. And you've
<v Speaker 1>got plants like Aerocarpus that have, you know, the thickest,
<v Speaker 1>some of the thickest cuticle of any plant out there,
<v Speaker 1>like a thick shell of a cuticle. And then on
<v Speaker 1>the other end of the spectrum with the aquatics, you've
<v Speaker 1>got many of these plants that have any cuticle at all, which, right,
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's great, that's crazy to me. I never
<v Speaker 1>I don't know why I never thought about that.
<v Speaker 2>Well. And the aquatics thing, I mean, it very much
<v Speaker 2>is a spectrum. Who you get, you know, whatever direction
<v Speaker 2>right left more aquatic and you know, and then they're
<v Speaker 2>very clearly aquatic. But in between, I mean, you can
<v Speaker 2>have very terrestrial looking plants, they that just look they
<v Speaker 2>just love water, but they're not necessarily you know, they
<v Speaker 2>don't technically have the physiology to be aquatic, but you
<v Speaker 2>will find them growing in water, and then you at
<v Speaker 2>some point you kind of just merge into this this
<v Speaker 2>very very point pointed adaptation to specific specifically growing in water.
<v Speaker 1>Like living under the surface, Like your whole life is
<v Speaker 1>spent under, the.
<v Speaker 2>Whole life is and you cannot do you cannot do
<v Speaker 2>without it or you die.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know, it makes sense to me that if
<v Speaker 1>I'm having an aquatic botanist, then the podcast they're from
<v Speaker 1>a place Sam Marcos, because I remember the first time
<v Speaker 1>I went to San Marcos it was to look at
<v Speaker 1>the taxodium there, because you know, there's this whole thing
<v Speaker 1>I've been obsessed with where it's like these fucking Texas
<v Speaker 1>botanists of your like the old older generation. God bless them,
<v Speaker 1>you know, God, But but they've been referring to Taxodium
<v Speaker 1>mucrenadum is just a different kind of disticum for decades,
<v Speaker 1>which is insane to me because if you go, you
<v Speaker 1>can follow that population basically all the way south into
<v Speaker 1>Wahaka and it's the same species, it's the same cone size,
<v Speaker 1>no noumataphores, same habitat limestone running rivers with with limestone geology,
<v Speaker 1>et cetera. So that was why I ended up in
<v Speaker 1>San Marcos. And then when I got there, I was
<v Speaker 1>like damn oh. And I had a friend who works
<v Speaker 1>for the railroad who lives there too, so I would
<v Speaker 1>go hang out with him. He would get hammered and
<v Speaker 1>I'd drink at eight beers and we'd crash his apartment,
<v Speaker 1>shoot the shit whatever. And the next day i'd i'd
<v Speaker 1>go out and yeah, when I saw that river and
<v Speaker 1>I want to see that Zazania. And then when I
<v Speaker 1>was when I was out there, like man, this river's
<v Speaker 1>fucking beautiful. This is like crystal clear water. I was
<v Speaker 1>sitting there watching this Azania flow back and forth like
<v Speaker 1>psychedelically in this river current, and I was like, this
<v Speaker 1>is a fucking incredible spot, Like this river is one
<v Speaker 1>of the most beautiful rivers I've ever seen in my life.
<v Speaker 1>And uh yeah, and so that it makes sense. And
<v Speaker 1>then you know what you've told me about the amount
<v Speaker 1>of carbon dioxide in that river as a result of
<v Speaker 1>all that water running through the limestone geology of that,
<v Speaker 1>you know that cretaceous limestone from the Western Interior Seaway,
<v Speaker 1>that ocean that used to be running up through Central Texas.
<v Speaker 1>It's like it all comes together now. I'm like, oh,
<v Speaker 1>I see, I see why you are where you are
<v Speaker 1>and why you're doing what you're doing. It's really fucking
<v Speaker 1>cool to see. But anyway, sorry, I got got distracted.
<v Speaker 1>So moving on to we're kind of all over the place.
<v Speaker 1>I hope that's cool with you. But I want to
<v Speaker 1>talk about Cabamba because that is I was. I took
<v Speaker 1>my daughter out. We rented a kayak and we were
<v Speaker 1>going to go watch the bats in that that What
<v Speaker 1>is it a lake? It's a it's a river, but
<v Speaker 1>it's damned right.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, So it was it was Town Lake and
<v Speaker 2>some people to refer it to that, but now it's
<v Speaker 2>officially Ladybird Lake.
<v Speaker 1>But it's basically the Guadeloupe River. Damned, it would be
<v Speaker 1>the Colorado River Colorado River, yeah right, okay.
<v Speaker 2>Right, and it's it's a float through lake so it
<v Speaker 2>is damned, but it maintains significant flow from Lake Austin
<v Speaker 2>to the Lower Colorado, so it never really stops flowing.
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry to do this again with the distractions, but
<v Speaker 1>why do they call it the Colorado River when there's
<v Speaker 1>already a Colorado River that runs to the Grand Canyon.
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure. I'm not sure. If you go upstream, uh,
<v Speaker 2>San Angelo area, it will look very red because of
<v Speaker 2>the soils up there, and so that might have been
<v Speaker 2>where it was first named. But once it passes through
<v Speaker 2>the hill country, it clears up a lot, and once
<v Speaker 2>it gets down the coast it turned sandy brown. So
<v Speaker 2>I'm not really sure where that So if you look
<v Speaker 2>in the old history the Spanish, the Spanish came to
<v Speaker 2>to settle missions in this area, they misnamed a lot
<v Speaker 2>of rivers. They would think that they would be on
<v Speaker 2>the walldoopee uh and when they were really on the
<v Speaker 2>Colorado and vice versa. And that happened a lot. And
<v Speaker 2>so that's why some of the missions they call them
<v Speaker 2>the lost missions, because they thought that they settled a
<v Speaker 2>mission on a certain river, but it was really a
<v Speaker 2>different river when they wrote it down.
<v Speaker 1>That's what Colorado means. That basically means colored red, right,
<v Speaker 1>yeah and so.
<v Speaker 2>And so it is red at the further. But it
<v Speaker 2>could also could be a misnomer of maybe they didn't
<v Speaker 2>know where they were.
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, it just yeh, pointless. I just had
<v Speaker 1>never thought of that before. I mean, I've thought of
<v Speaker 1>it before, but I just it occurred to me to
<v Speaker 1>ask you, because when I think Colorado River, I think
<v Speaker 1>of what runs it through Imperial County, California, and the
<v Speaker 1>Colorado Desert, which is, you know, basically like the Northern Net.
<v Speaker 1>It's like the desert that occupies where Baja and Southern
<v Speaker 1>California meat, which is where I learned a lot of bodies. Okay, anyway,
<v Speaker 1>the point being, so we're out on this lake, We're
<v Speaker 1>waiting for the bats. You know, we're out in this flotilla.
<v Speaker 1>There's like a shit ton of people out to watch
<v Speaker 1>the bats. My daughters, Yeah, my daughter loved it. I
<v Speaker 1>was doing all that, you know, I was just basically
<v Speaker 1>pushing her around. It was like driving this daisy and
<v Speaker 1>uh and then uh, you know, kayaking around, you know,
<v Speaker 1>pushing her. I was doing most of the work. And
<v Speaker 1>then there's this this plant everywhere, which I later learned
<v Speaker 1>was cobamba that was floating everywhere, and she got obsessed
<v Speaker 1>with like collecting it and bringing it on and and
<v Speaker 1>it was I figured it was probably an invasive because
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, it's we're in Austin, We're in a big city.
<v Speaker 1>It's probably an invasive of some kind. But but no,
<v Speaker 1>I think it was the native cobamba. What was it Caroliniana?
<v Speaker 1>And so that what's up with that? I mean, that
<v Speaker 1>is like you talk about an aquatic planet, truly aquatic
<v Speaker 1>plant that has no ability to basically stand up if
<v Speaker 1>you take it out of water, right, it just fluffs over,
<v Speaker 1>and it's got you know, petioles and all this stuff,
<v Speaker 1>but they look like kind of those It kind of
<v Speaker 1>looks like that fake fossil pattern. You know, what does
<v Speaker 1>it called? I think, yeah, so what's up with cabamba?
<v Speaker 1>This is like a really common plant. And you said
<v Speaker 1>it was you had told me earlier in a previous conversation.
<v Speaker 1>It's really ubiquitous in that body of water.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah it isn't. Ladybird. Ladybird's probably I would say the
<v Speaker 2>hot spot for it in central Texas. Right now, it's
<v Speaker 2>really an East Texas, an Eastern US plant. It kind
<v Speaker 2>of peters out as you get to the west, although
<v Speaker 2>you can go out to Saint Felipe Springs in Belverde
<v Speaker 2>and West Texas and find it in that spring system.
<v Speaker 2>But so Ladybird used to have very large hydrilla problem
<v Speaker 2>and which is again the non native invasive and uh,
<v Speaker 2>they treated it, and what amazingly came back was this
<v Speaker 2>cobomba and and now and some people are kind of
<v Speaker 2>complaining about it because it makes it hard to to
<v Speaker 2>paddle and it looks you know, a lot of people
<v Speaker 2>want to call everything a weed and so referring it
<v Speaker 2>to it to as a weed. But ye, just touching
<v Speaker 2>completely my leg, my leg. Yeah, I want to get
<v Speaker 2>rid of it. Why don't Why don't we kill it?
<v Speaker 2>But I mean, it's absolutely an indicator of just how
<v Speaker 2>how healthy really Ladybird Lake is a lot of people
<v Speaker 2>don't understand that that lake is actually pretty healthy, considering
<v Speaker 2>it's completely urban, urban lake. But the water quality is
<v Speaker 2>actually pretty good and uh, and the plant just as
<v Speaker 2>an indicator of how how good the water quality is
<v Speaker 2>and the conditions and the plant itself makes the water
<v Speaker 2>quality that much better by filtering out all of the
<v Speaker 2>pollutants and stuff. And so yeah, I mean it's it's
<v Speaker 2>a unique it's a very unique situation there on that one. Flowers.
<v Speaker 2>Flowers are gorgeous.
<v Speaker 1>I imagine all the batshit too. It's got to be
<v Speaker 1>a boom probably.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, lots of nitrogen, lots of nitrogen. You know it.
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't really get a whole lot of flooding. So
<v Speaker 2>Obama doesn't have a great root system, and I would
<v Speaker 2>label it as a heavy feeder. It likes lots of
<v Speaker 2>sediment nutrients too, and it likes really fine silky soil sediment.
<v Speaker 2>And and so the fact that it's in there means
<v Speaker 2>we haven't really gotten a huge scouring event, a huge
<v Speaker 2>flood event yet in a long time. And so it's
<v Speaker 2>just kind of feeding itself and increasing by.
<v Speaker 1>So what would a big scouring and flood event do.
<v Speaker 2>It would probably rip a lot of it out, and
<v Speaker 2>we've seen that in the past.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so it's a disturbance event. It's kind of like
<v Speaker 1>a like the equivalent of a fire in a terrestrial ecosystem.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, it'll reset the system.
<v Speaker 1>See I'm learning. I'm learning all this new ship. This
<v Speaker 1>is yeah, this is good. This is why I gotta
<v Speaker 1>as long as you can tolerate me. Hopefully you got,
<v Speaker 1>you know, a little bit of tolerance for my questions.
<v Speaker 1>But this is I'm so ignorant, but I think all
<v Speaker 1>this ship is fascinting. There's so much stuff to consider.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it really is. I think for a lot
<v Speaker 1>of people that are that aren't familiar with aquatic ecosisms,
<v Speaker 1>it's similar, you know, it's like, holy shit, I never
<v Speaker 1>thought about things like this. Yeah, like a scouring event,
<v Speaker 1>the flooding event is is so important for ecosystem health.
<v Speaker 1>And how does that happen when every river is fucking
<v Speaker 1>damned too, you know, right right, And that's.
<v Speaker 2>Kind of the problem. And actually a lot of aquatic systems,
<v Speaker 2>at least in tech is you know, we think of
<v Speaker 2>Texas as a water poor state. It's really historically not.
<v Speaker 2>We have tons of rivers, we have tons of springs,
<v Speaker 2>we have the coast. It's just we're over allocating, you know,
<v Speaker 2>our aquatic resources more than what the natural system can handle.
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, the historical kind of are pretty historical ancient
<v Speaker 2>life system of these aquatic systems is for them to
<v Speaker 2>have lots of lots of water at certain times and
<v Speaker 2>then kind of go dry at other times. And so
<v Speaker 2>a lot of our Texas aquatic plants are kind of
<v Speaker 2>have a part in their life cycle where they can
<v Speaker 2>can go dormant through seed or a hard a hardened
<v Speaker 2>propagual corn or whatever, and they sit in the soil,
<v Speaker 2>and those droughts and floods are important for resetting the system,
<v Speaker 2>just like wild fire isn't a peer in a forest,
<v Speaker 2>and we just they just used droughts and floods as
<v Speaker 2>their reset.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because and sorry, what we're gonna say, keep going well.
<v Speaker 2>And so when you when you kind of normalize and
<v Speaker 2>even even that out with building a dam or keeping
<v Speaker 2>things too draw for too long or too wet for
<v Speaker 2>too long, and then you start seeing these aquatic species
<v Speaker 2>start kind of blinking out. And that's kind of what's
<v Speaker 2>been happening probably in the last one hundred fifty hundred
<v Speaker 2>years and our Texas aquatic plants.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's so you know, I've I've noticed here,
<v Speaker 1>especially in this thing, because I can't you know, I
<v Speaker 1>lived in California for twenty years and it's a spot
<v Speaker 1>where like environmental impact is taken really seriously and there's
<v Speaker 1>a lot of regulations, you know, to the point that
<v Speaker 1>you know, businesses are always complaining about there's too much
<v Speaker 1>goddamn or whatever, but here there's like none, there's basically no.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I was looking at an endangered species that
<v Speaker 1>was like in the live a construction zone, you know,
<v Speaker 1>like and just like I was like, what the fuck
<v Speaker 1>this is? Like it's it's like hilarious so much it's
<v Speaker 1>like something out of a Simpsons. It's like that Simpsons
<v Speaker 1>style of cynicism. It's like, why is this even Like yeah,
<v Speaker 1>like there's nothing protecting this rare plant, Like they could
<v Speaker 1>just get snuffed out because some slob whatever. Anyway, but
<v Speaker 1>the point is, you know, in.
<v Speaker 2>Texas you have to yell a lot. Those those who
<v Speaker 2>those who yell and are the louder voice usually usually
<v Speaker 2>when so.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, and I'm all for that, I mean, do
<v Speaker 1>it do it politely. But but the or at least here,
<v Speaker 1>do it politely, because I've noticed that people are really
<v Speaker 1>nice here. They are whether it's real and genuine or
<v Speaker 1>not or what I mean, I think in most of
<v Speaker 1>the cases it is genuine, but but still people are
<v Speaker 1>really polite, but it's you really have to like be
<v Speaker 1>aggressive about things, yes, if you want them to get
<v Speaker 1>listened to, because people will. There's there's also that tendency
<v Speaker 1>to just kind of patch you on the head. And
<v Speaker 1>now though that's nice, I just ignore you. You got
<v Speaker 1>to keep pestering and being obnoxious, politely obnoxious to fucking
<v Speaker 1>get people to listen to you. But it just blows
<v Speaker 1>my mind that a lot of this stuff is not
<v Speaker 1>it's so understudied. It's like not, I don't know. And
<v Speaker 1>there's there's so much richness here in terms of flora
<v Speaker 1>and geology. I mean, there's how many Texas endemics are
<v Speaker 1>their christ I don't even know.
<v Speaker 2>It's like, oh, I don't know. That's a question for me.
<v Speaker 2>I guess yeah.
<v Speaker 1>And there there's a spot where, you know, Texas is
<v Speaker 1>on that hundredth meridian where the continent starts drying out,
<v Speaker 1>where you go from that green on the satellite image
<v Speaker 1>and start moving west to the beige. And so that,
<v Speaker 1>I guess leads me to my next question, which is
<v Speaker 1>what's the coping mechanism that a lot of these plants,
<v Speaker 1>especially in West Texas. I would imagine where it's much drier,
<v Speaker 1>have to basically survive and go drought dormant, especially if
<v Speaker 1>you're like an obligate aquatic plant not amphibious, so.
<v Speaker 2>Believe it or not. The hotbed for put mcgeaton. Hotspot
<v Speaker 2>for put mcgeaton in Texas is the Davis Mountains. We
<v Speaker 2>have more species of put mcgeaton and Texas there than
<v Speaker 2>we do in East Texas.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so ptomaton.
<v Speaker 2>So that's the pond read genus and they're very common.
<v Speaker 2>Just as you move north and east, you get a
<v Speaker 2>lot more species than larger species than we have in Texas.
<v Speaker 2>Is uh, yes, So this is.
<v Speaker 1>A really I mean that that whole order Eliza metals
<v Speaker 1>is something to familiarize yourself with if you're listening. Is like,
<v Speaker 1>look at the go to ininaturalists. Use the explorer feature,
<v Speaker 1>hit the taxonomy chart and just go to that order
<v Speaker 1>and then hit the view children. You'll see all the
<v Speaker 1>you know what they call them, children children pages of
<v Speaker 1>that tax on page. You can go to family genus whatever.
<v Speaker 1>But a lot of a lot of Elisma tales. A
<v Speaker 1>lot of members of this order are aquatic, right, this
<v Speaker 1>is the monocod primarily aquat.
<v Speaker 2>Right, Yeah, I think it's just pretty much mostly aquatic.
<v Speaker 2>I mean, a Lisma is definitely an aquatic genus. I'd
<v Speaker 2>say it the failes and it's probably the only other
<v Speaker 2>one maybe that's as aquatic fully aquatic that I can
<v Speaker 2>think of. But anyway, so tell me about so thes
<v Speaker 2>so our other believe or are other federally endangered aquatic plant.
<v Speaker 2>Is this tiny little potomageton we call them folier or
<v Speaker 2>pucillid pond weeds, completely submerged. They don't produce a floating
<v Speaker 2>leaf for a surface leaf. And and so this is
<v Speaker 2>put mcgeton Bertold the eye subspecies Clystocarpus. It was thought
<v Speaker 2>to be uh, Crystalcarpus, but Clystocarpus has now been moved
<v Speaker 2>into us a subspecies. And so you find this subspecies
<v Speaker 2>and Perta meat and petrolia itself in these high elevation
<v Speaker 2>canyons and in the Davis Mountains. And so these are
<v Speaker 2>and these are six five five six thousand, you know,
<v Speaker 2>so feet, which in Texas is high elevation fourteen ers,
<v Speaker 2>but you know, very low nutrients they get. They have
<v Speaker 2>kind of a gravelly substrate in these streams and canyons
<v Speaker 2>that cut through the mountains, and so you'll find these
<v Speaker 2>plants and pockets in these deep shaded canyons that in
<v Speaker 2>these areas stay wet pretty much year round. They may
<v Speaker 2>go dry surface water, but they'll stay wet in the
<v Speaker 2>soil enough for seeds and razoomes to stay wet. And
<v Speaker 2>then when we get them onsoon, if we get them monsoon,
<v Speaker 2>which generally is pretty pretty rare dealer. But you know,
<v Speaker 2>last decade or so has not been right.
<v Speaker 1>And this is this is a West Texas thing. The
<v Speaker 1>monthsoon West Texas, like eastern half doesn't really doesn't get it,
<v Speaker 1>doesn't deal with this. This is in West Texas. Like
<v Speaker 1>the season of growth is not the spring. Spring is
<v Speaker 1>when it's the crispy and dusty, yes and windy as fuck.
<v Speaker 1>The season of growth in West Texas is this is
<v Speaker 1>late summer, early fall.
<v Speaker 2>Right right late summer early fall, you get monsoon, and
<v Speaker 2>so you get the right month soon duration of time,
<v Speaker 2>these these creeks will start flowing again and then uh,
<v Speaker 2>if you go and visit a month or two months later,
<v Speaker 2>you will start seeing all these puts filling in the
<v Speaker 2>creek and they're coming. They'll move upstream, move downstream because
<v Speaker 2>of birds, or move upstream with birds downstreams because of
<v Speaker 2>the flow of the water. And they'll spread out of
<v Speaker 2>these these little mother colonies I would call them, uh,
<v Speaker 2>and they'll they'll fill in the creek and you get uh,
<v Speaker 2>you'll get putting mcgon you're big, you'll get head and
<v Speaker 2>Thera limosa, you'll get the Copa rutundifolia. You'll get a
<v Speaker 2>couple of different Sagittaria species.
<v Speaker 1>So, but Copa's plantagenecy right formerly, and then what was
<v Speaker 1>the what was the potomacgeaton that we were talking about?
<v Speaker 1>Let me look this one up.
<v Speaker 2>I should be honest, BERTOLDI I B E R C.
<v Speaker 2>H arch I think t O L D I I
<v Speaker 2>something like that, erch told I. Subspecies Clustocarpus.
<v Speaker 1>Oh god, there's only okay, wait there we go, all right,
<v Speaker 1>now we got a bunch, We got quite a few.
<v Speaker 1>Well this is in Uh, this is in Europe too?
<v Speaker 1>Is it invasive over there?
<v Speaker 2>Uh? Clustocarpus shouldn't be in is not in Europe? I
<v Speaker 2>just look this species patrol. The pertoli has somewhat common,
<v Speaker 2>except it's not common in Texas. It's pretty rare. In
<v Speaker 2>text okay, so.
<v Speaker 1>This is this is for anybody listening. It just looks
<v Speaker 1>like a yeah, I mean it's got that same kind
<v Speaker 1>of like a totally aquatic look to it. No, you know,
<v Speaker 1>it just looks like linear, narrow, linear leaves, almost like
<v Speaker 1>a grass, like an underwater grass or something.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And so you identify them basically by the seed shape.
<v Speaker 2>So if it doesn't have seed, good luck they'll have Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>they'll have uh, they'll have like stipules or no stipules
<v Speaker 2>and some other little things. But I mean, honestly, I
<v Speaker 2>just collect it and send it off for genetics, but ut.
<v Speaker 1>It down to genus just good enough, you know.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Well, I mean he'll he'll get it down to species.
<v Speaker 2>He'll tell me species.
<v Speaker 1>I'm just saying this is what I do. There's definitely
<v Speaker 1>some tax i do that with They just get it
<v Speaker 1>down to genus. You know what. I don't give a
<v Speaker 1>shit what species it is. Let the nerds fight about
<v Speaker 1>that on on on at you know, I just want
<v Speaker 1>to I want to know what it does an ecosystem
<v Speaker 1>and be able to know a genus.
<v Speaker 2>But I guess, sorry, well, I mean I I want
<v Speaker 2>it down to species. I can get it down to genus.
<v Speaker 1>Well you needies.
<v Speaker 2>I'm just talking about subspecies. Yeah, yeah, but but anyway, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>and so it's just amazing to go. You know, I've
<v Speaker 2>been and you've been there, I'm sure when it's dry
<v Speaker 2>and it's very crispy, and you would never you would
<v Speaker 2>never think that there would be aquatic plants anywhere around,
<v Speaker 2>or any water standing water at all, or creeks blowing creeks,
<v Speaker 2>and then you'll go six months later and it'll just
<v Speaker 2>be the oasis of aquatic plants and it's just absolutely
<v Speaker 2>amazing when it all is timed right and everything can
<v Speaker 2>come up and flower. So yeah, it's pretty amazing.
<v Speaker 1>What do they do to deal with the drought? I mean,
<v Speaker 1>how do they go dormant? If you're an aquatic plant
<v Speaker 1>in a desert.
<v Speaker 2>So out there though only produce a drought resistant seed.
<v Speaker 2>It would be a hard coded seed and it will
<v Speaker 2>just drop into the sedtiment. Some of them will produce rhizomes.
<v Speaker 2>And like I said, the the sediment has to maintain
<v Speaker 2>some sort of moisture in it continuously, and this is
<v Speaker 2>mineral sediment, so it generally does it doesn't it doesn't
<v Speaker 2>dry out completely. If it does dry out completely, they
<v Speaker 2>probably get too desiccated and they can't recover. But again,
<v Speaker 2>it's really just about timing and dropping those dropping those
<v Speaker 2>proper goals into the sediment and just hoping that it
<v Speaker 2>stays moist enough for long enough for them to make
<v Speaker 2>it until the next one soon. And so that's generally
<v Speaker 2>the life cycle on those.
<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm, God, there was you know what is what's
<v Speaker 1>what's the kind of doorus? Berderoid? Didn't you mention that
<v Speaker 1>genus before?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, so kind of doors when you came to
<v Speaker 2>my house the other day, there should have been a
<v Speaker 2>kind of dorous. The little Econodorus was burder roy and
<v Speaker 2>then the giant kind of dooris was cornefolios.
<v Speaker 1>Is by some rare. I mean, is it like a
<v Speaker 1>South Texas It is a South Texas species.
<v Speaker 2>It's a again, it's ephemeral. We call these ephemeral, you know,
<v Speaker 2>kind of a quatic species that grow implias and and things. Again,
<v Speaker 2>when the when we get one soon or hurricane.
<v Speaker 1>It grows in a habitat that can dry out like
<v Speaker 1>an ephemeral.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, yeah, and really, I mean I think that's
<v Speaker 2>kind of my point is I've learned that really the
<v Speaker 2>coolest habitats for aquatics, and that have really interesting biodiversity
<v Speaker 2>are those that go dry and then come back when
<v Speaker 2>we get rain. And it's just amazing how much diversity,
<v Speaker 2>uh you see. And then the ecology with the birds
<v Speaker 2>and animals coming in to use the resource. That's that's
<v Speaker 2>really has fascinated me more probably than these perennial waterways
<v Speaker 2>that are just kind of always static.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we should talk about birds the role of birds
<v Speaker 1>in this too, because I you know, it seems yeah,
<v Speaker 1>it seems like you've got you know, that's such a
<v Speaker 1>huge thing. There's so many birds are obviously using a
<v Speaker 1>lot of these water ways and ponds as you know,
<v Speaker 1>stepping stones on their migratory paths, you have little oasises
<v Speaker 1>and so in doing that, and of course they can
<v Speaker 1>transport things and their plumage or their feet or whatever.
<v Speaker 1>And so what what does that do genetically with some
<v Speaker 1>of these populations. Does it make them more homogeneous?
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yeah, And that's really one reason why a lot
<v Speaker 2>of these aquatics are so widespread is because birds, you know,
<v Speaker 2>five far distances and so at some point over you know,
<v Speaker 2>undred or a thousand years, you are actually getting genetic
<v Speaker 2>mixing between really far ranging population.
<v Speaker 1>Birds are like the conduits that link all these all
<v Speaker 1>these different seemingly isolated waterways, like they're actually not that
<v Speaker 1>isolated in terms of of plant life.
<v Speaker 2>They're right when when you add birds that can fly,
<v Speaker 2>you know, hundreds of miles in a day, they're not
<v Speaker 2>isolated at all. And and some species, uh, well you
<v Speaker 2>can follow the bird, follow them on the bird route
<v Speaker 2>from Mexico into South and central Texas. They're Mexicana is
<v Speaker 2>probably one. Probably probably the water the blue water lilies
<v Speaker 2>are utilized by birds, and so you'll see those in
<v Speaker 2>the South Texas and along Mexican Mexican Gulf coast.
<v Speaker 1>What is h what's uh?
<v Speaker 2>Fuck? What?
<v Speaker 1>Wolfia is duck weed? Right, that's an aeroid.
<v Speaker 2>Oh, Wolfia is water mill that's the smallest blooming plant.
<v Speaker 2>I think. I don't know what. I don't know what
<v Speaker 2>family wolf is.
<v Speaker 1>Where is it native to?
<v Speaker 2>Probably everywhere? Probably spread gets around.
<v Speaker 1>Is it considered invasive in Texas or what?
<v Speaker 2>I don't really see Wolfia a whole lot. I see
<v Speaker 2>lots of other duck weeds, but Wolfea is so tiny
<v Speaker 2>you'd probably have to be looking for it specifically.
<v Speaker 1>And Lemna Lemna is duck weed, right, yes.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Sparadella. Sparadella is the other duck weed quote unquote yeah.
<v Speaker 1>The common names thing. I've tried to get people to
<v Speaker 1>not use common names, you know, unless it's like yeah, absolutely,
<v Speaker 1>but people a lot of people still insist. And it's like,
<v Speaker 1>why you can learn learn a genus name. It's it's
<v Speaker 1>shorter in many cases, it's yes, phanatically shorter than a
<v Speaker 1>common name, and then you learn.
<v Speaker 2>I think when you're educating yourself, I think really should
<v Speaker 2>first learn the scientific name because that's what that's going
<v Speaker 2>to be your reference, your reference name, right, and then
<v Speaker 2>if you happen to learn the common names, great.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right, exactly. Yeah, you learn the common name, especially
<v Speaker 1>the genus and the family. You always ask what family
<v Speaker 1>is in it, you know, And if you forget the
<v Speaker 1>species name, that's fine, you can, you know, save it
<v Speaker 1>on your I at look up the species name later
<v Speaker 1>just by typing in the genus. It'll bring it up.
<v Speaker 1>But like, at least memorize the genus and at least
<v Speaker 1>know what family it is, and also know the traits
<v Speaker 1>of the family, because I'll forget. I'll always forget no matter.
<v Speaker 1>I've just got too many plants in my brain. Oh yeah,
<v Speaker 1>I'll forget, fuck what was that member of Lois Sacey
<v Speaker 1>that I saw in Chile? And then I'll but I
<v Speaker 1>always remember the family, because family for me is not
<v Speaker 1>just the name. It's a set of traits like that
<v Speaker 1>come to mind and a certain look as uh that
<v Speaker 1>comes to mind when I think of a family. And
<v Speaker 1>that's why, you know, that's why like basic plant I
<v Speaker 1>d in taxonomy is so essential, you know, like I mean, if.
<v Speaker 2>I if I did not have a professor that taught
<v Speaker 2>us families, I never would have picked up I never
<v Speaker 2>would have been able to picked up a book, that
<v Speaker 2>taxonomy book. I mean, that's what I that's what I
<v Speaker 2>go on as families. Once you totally learned your families,
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's easy.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah you'll and then you'll even if you forget, you
<v Speaker 1>can you know, forget what even if you forget what
<v Speaker 1>the genus name is, you can know, Okay, that family.
<v Speaker 1>I got to look up that family, what occurs here?
<v Speaker 1>What that I see and then boom you'll see it
<v Speaker 1>in the book or on in you'll remember it.
<v Speaker 2>So you know, thank thank God for good field biology professors.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and just taxonomy, and I d I D classes.
<v Speaker 1>I just uh, it always frustrates me when people like
<v Speaker 1>are willing to throw that out they think it's like
<v Speaker 1>some elitist thing. It's like, it doesn't need to be
<v Speaker 1>like it's it's not. It's a good system. It makes sense.
<v Speaker 1>It's awesome, and it's the way that we classify life.
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't mean one thing or the other. It's just
<v Speaker 1>a good system. It's like, you know, it's just the
<v Speaker 1>it's it's a good it's a think of it like
<v Speaker 1>a machine, a tool. It's just a tool to so
<v Speaker 1>but uh yeah, So anytime I see that resistance, are
<v Speaker 1>like immediately nip it in the button. I'm like, no,
<v Speaker 1>you learn good taxonomy. It makes sense. So uh okay,
<v Speaker 1>but let's talk about like like what is it Pontadia.
<v Speaker 1>There's so many there's so many like genera that I
<v Speaker 1>want to talk about with you that I'm curious about
<v Speaker 1>that I just have no no clue, Like Pontaderia.
<v Speaker 2>What was? What was?
<v Speaker 1>There was one I saw in West Texas. I was
<v Speaker 1>I was going to a cave site where all these
<v Speaker 1>artifacts and even bodies had been pulled out. The spot
<v Speaker 1>had basically been looted because it was privately owned like
<v Speaker 1>so much like everything is in Texas. And then and
<v Speaker 1>it's some guy the owner had let you know, pay
<v Speaker 1>me fifty bucks. You can go in there and just
<v Speaker 1>take whatever you want. And so these people did this
<v Speaker 1>in the fifties. Yeah, I was insane. And this is
<v Speaker 1>like people's ancestors lived there, you know, in that region.
<v Speaker 1>People's ancestors were buried there. And so anyway, but we
<v Speaker 1>were dry, and the drive there it was like rugged
<v Speaker 1>ass West Texas cut, like we couldn't take a truck.
<v Speaker 1>We had to get a side by side and so,
<v Speaker 1>you know, just really rough limestone roads. Is this Western Presidio, Yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>you probably know it. Yeah. And so we went by
<v Speaker 1>this pond. Yeah, it was spirit I Cave. And we
<v Speaker 1>went by this pond and and I just it was
<v Speaker 1>like a I don't know if it was if it
<v Speaker 1>ever drives up or what, but there was all this
<v Speaker 1>I think it was pontaderia, but there was all this
<v Speaker 1>cool aquatic plant there, and I was blown away, What
<v Speaker 1>the fuck is this doing? This is the middle of
<v Speaker 1>the hot West Texas desert in July, and it was sagittary.
<v Speaker 1>Excuse me, Okay, longealobo.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's one. I'm I'm not You're lucky. I
<v Speaker 2>have not seen longeloba out in that far west Texas. Uh,
<v Speaker 2>it's common in the coast on the coast in South Texas,
<v Speaker 2>So that would be an interesting voucher specimen for Longeloba
<v Speaker 2>out there. Uh. Generally, I've seen sagittaria monts of edensas
<v Speaker 2>I believe out there, or Calisi calisina. I think those
<v Speaker 2>are kind of those are kind of being kind of
<v Speaker 2>lumped together in some texts. But that's the only sagittaria
<v Speaker 2>I've seen out there.
<v Speaker 1>Well, tell tell me about the genus sagittary, because this
<v Speaker 1>is like a family Elisma tas order. And then it's
<v Speaker 1>got these I mean the sagittate leaves, and it's got
<v Speaker 1>three pedaled white flowers generally right with this really strange
<v Speaker 1>like ovaries structure too. In the center of this flower
<v Speaker 1>the flowers are let me say, are they bisexual? I
<v Speaker 1>can't even is it? Is it monocious or dioecious or what?
<v Speaker 2>Uh, it would be monoecious, I believe probably what's the
<v Speaker 2>regime where the the mill part matures first andandrius probably
<v Speaker 2>that I don't know, probably look it up. But Sagittaria
<v Speaker 2>are cool for me in the field because they're super difficult.
<v Speaker 2>If they're not blooming, they're super Their leaf structure is
<v Speaker 2>super radical. We call them hydrophyllis hydrophyllis leaves or heterophilous thieves.
<v Speaker 2>So they take multiple shapes and depending on the water,
<v Speaker 2>the water depth, and what the growing conditions are. So
<v Speaker 2>is it like, is it.
<v Speaker 1>What's that called heteroblaste where it's like there's young leaves
<v Speaker 1>and adult leaves or it's just aquatic leaves, and then
<v Speaker 1>it can it can be both above above water surface leaves.
<v Speaker 2>Or what yes, both, So I've there's one. So Sagittaria
<v Speaker 2>platyphyla is really the more common in Texas, most common
<v Speaker 2>in Texas species, and it will generally grow fully aquatic.
<v Speaker 2>Uh so it we'll have, you know, the translucent that's
<v Speaker 2>what we call the rosette species. So it's a cole
<v Speaker 2>lescent no stem at least in the submersed form forms
<v Speaker 2>of rose that I know how these big strap like
<v Speaker 2>green beaves kind of kind of reverted and it can
<v Speaker 2>live like that. It's entire life and just a sexury reproduce,
<v Speaker 2>and I've seen it growing in in spring late here
<v Speaker 2>in Sant Marcus. You'll see it growing in thirty feet
<v Speaker 2>of water and it will just grow like that. And
<v Speaker 2>then if the water level becomes shallow or I guess
<v Speaker 2>a little hot or whatever that mechanism is that induces
<v Speaker 2>the leaf change, it'll put up its sagitate, you know, leaf,
<v Speaker 2>and then it'll start blooming. And that it can just
<v Speaker 2>be completely random. I've even what's weird though, is I've
<v Speaker 2>even seen them bloom underwater, which is completely pointless in
<v Speaker 2>the same in the same Marcus. And I'm assuming they're
<v Speaker 2>just getting tricked because the water is so clear and
<v Speaker 2>there's so much CO two.
<v Speaker 1>So the flowers are not adapted to underwater.
<v Speaker 2>No, No, it will not. It will not do anything
<v Speaker 2>when it blooms underwater. But but they're really really common
<v Speaker 2>and really known for having tons of different shapes of leaves,
<v Speaker 2>and so it's really hard to go through using a
<v Speaker 2>leaf shape to determine the species if you're not familiar
<v Speaker 2>with the populations. In Texas, it.
<v Speaker 1>Says most are monoecious. There's a few dioecious ones. Okay,
<v Speaker 1>it looks like this lounge of lobised on West Texas
<v Speaker 1>is monicious. It's got the female, it's got the carpols
<v Speaker 1>on like a central spike or a separate spike from
<v Speaker 1>the male. It's weird, man. I just yeah, I I
<v Speaker 1>wish I would have paid more attention to this because
<v Speaker 1>you can learn so much just by being out there
<v Speaker 1>and looking at a plant, like what you know, looking
<v Speaker 1>at Okay, is this flower bisexual? If not, then where
<v Speaker 1>are the female flowers? Is a dioecious, there's a monacious
<v Speaker 1>they're just born separately and lower what but uh, but yeah, man,
<v Speaker 1>this is I'm really glad we did this podcast.
<v Speaker 2>And the problem and that's that's kind of the problem
<v Speaker 2>with with identifying aquatic plants is and why a lot
<v Speaker 2>of botanists have just dismissed them over the years, is
<v Speaker 2>because they will go years without even blooming or seeding.
<v Speaker 2>And so if you're a botanist, generally you are concerned
<v Speaker 2>with the structure of the flower and the and the
<v Speaker 2>seed identify the species. But if they don't do that
<v Speaker 2>for multiple years, then botanists like okay, I don't know
<v Speaker 2>what that is, and they'll go on and so that's
<v Speaker 2>why they have been dismissed by most botanists because very
<v Speaker 2>rarely do they seed in some instances.
<v Speaker 1>Why why is that? Because if why are you seeding rarely?
<v Speaker 2>Well, if generally it's probably because there's too much water, uh,
<v Speaker 2>and so they can't really get they can't really get
<v Speaker 2>to the surface to bloom or there's no use want
<v Speaker 2>to put energy into blooming. When you have enough resources,
<v Speaker 2>you can just you know, butt off again and make
<v Speaker 2>a giant mother colony. So a lot of acquiet plants
<v Speaker 2>are colonial. So rahsometis are still niferous, and so they
<v Speaker 2>will produce colonies of their clone and so that's pretty common.
<v Speaker 2>And a lot of those that they're colonial, they won't
<v Speaker 2>really seed or hour very often. So that's one thing.
<v Speaker 2>Just the growing conditions. You know, if you're not quite habitat,
<v Speaker 2>things change. You have to worry about p H of
<v Speaker 2>the water. You know, you have to worry about your
<v Speaker 2>carbon dioxide. Yeah, you have to worry about your you
<v Speaker 2>have to worry about your alkalinity.
<v Speaker 1>So there can be there can be there can be
<v Speaker 1>areas where where I mean some of these ponds too,
<v Speaker 1>if it gets too standard where the CO two just
<v Speaker 1>plummets or what.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and they'll you know, they'll just abort
<v Speaker 2>their flowers and their seed and they'll just say, Okay,
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to flower this year, and they'll go dormant.
<v Speaker 1>What about dissolved oxygen? Does that ever? I mean, does
<v Speaker 1>that affect them or.
<v Speaker 2>They can't They can't. Yeah, it's it would be a
<v Speaker 2>it would be a lesser parameter.
<v Speaker 1>Because the community, right, because they can produce it.
<v Speaker 2>They can produce Yeah, And and oxygen is easier, there's
<v Speaker 2>more abundant in the environment than other gases, especially in water,
<v Speaker 2>and so yeah, I mean, when you're looking at the
<v Speaker 2>physical the mechanism, the trigger mechanism that that makes these
<v Speaker 2>plants decide whether the situation is good enough for them
<v Speaker 2>to to break their dormancy and grow and flower, it
<v Speaker 2>can be lots of different things and so and we
<v Speaker 2>don't really know. There's really not a whole lot of
<v Speaker 2>literature on what makes them what environmental parameter specific environmental
<v Speaker 2>parameter triggers them to break dormancy and grow and fower
<v Speaker 2>and and set seed. So yeah, okay, well it's a
<v Speaker 2>it's a conundrum.
<v Speaker 1>Having been to your house, I want to say I'm
<v Speaker 1>immediately impressed by how many how many natives you're growing?
<v Speaker 1>It's really fucking cool. I mean, I was like, yeah again,
<v Speaker 1>it's this is a whole new field for me. So
<v Speaker 1>I'm just like a kid in the candy store where
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, wow, there's so much to learn. I'm so stick.
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, what I like about it is that obviously,
<v Speaker 1>growing a plant is the best way to learn it,
<v Speaker 1>you know, for me. For me, it's not gardening, and
<v Speaker 1>it's not like a hobby where it's like a collector thing.
<v Speaker 1>It's like, no, I'm growing this shit to learn it
<v Speaker 1>and also to increase like the biomass like in my
<v Speaker 1>yard and property, so I have a more pleasant, humane
<v Speaker 1>place to live. If you're studying aquatic plants, it's obviously,
<v Speaker 1>you know, you live in San Marcos. You could drive
<v Speaker 1>down to the river, but that's not always the easiest
<v Speaker 1>thing to do. It's much easier to just go in
<v Speaker 1>your backyard and be like, huh, look at what this
<v Speaker 1>is doing today, look at what's pollinating this, look at
<v Speaker 1>how this is declining or thriving, et cetera. So what
<v Speaker 1>how long have you been growing stuff? And also what
<v Speaker 1>the fuck do you do about the mosquitos? You just
<v Speaker 1>got mosquitofish and everything or.
<v Speaker 2>What the mosquitofish and the dunks.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but the mosquitofish really do a lot of the work, right, Yes.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And if it rains and I'll have to
<v Speaker 2>go out and dunk it pretty good, and I'm pretty
<v Speaker 2>good about dumping the water and refilling stuff. So yeah,
<v Speaker 2>it's definitely definitely something you have to keep on top of.
<v Speaker 2>But as far as collecting and propagating, I mean, you know,
<v Speaker 2>you always as a plant nerd, we always want to
<v Speaker 2>grow stuff. And with the aquatics, Yeah, if it's not
<v Speaker 2>blooming and I don't know what it is, I have
<v Speaker 2>just grabbed it and taken it home and put it
<v Speaker 2>in a pot and be like, okay, see what you
<v Speaker 2>do and if you bloom, and then then I can
<v Speaker 2>figure out what you are. So that's kind of one
<v Speaker 2>thing that I've just done to learn about them. And
<v Speaker 2>then for my job, we do a lot of aquatic
<v Speaker 2>restoration and aquatic plants. Native aquiet plants are hard to
<v Speaker 2>find commercially, and so I just started kind of growing
<v Speaker 2>my own, our own projects.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all the natives are hard to grow, or not
<v Speaker 1>hard to grow, hard to find because so much of
<v Speaker 1>what we focus on, not we, but of what the
<v Speaker 1>dominant society that we live and focuses on. Is Is
<v Speaker 1>it an attractive horticultural plant? Like you can find the
<v Speaker 1>million crape myrtles, which I certainly will find when I
<v Speaker 1>get the hell it'll be the streets will be lined
<v Speaker 1>with crape myrtles.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>But the fucking hate it's crazy, man. Like I've like,
<v Speaker 1>I have people commenting like, why do you hate crepe myrtles?
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, really, you want your yard to look like
<v Speaker 1>the fucking parking lot outside of Ross Press for lesser
<v Speaker 1>the CVS Like, come on, man, you know, I mean,
<v Speaker 1>I say it with love. I'm not shaming anybody.
<v Speaker 2>I love.
<v Speaker 1>I love them for asking. But it's just like Jesus Christ,
<v Speaker 1>let's go, come on, let's let's go with the natives.
<v Speaker 1>There's a context, there's an ecology, there's millions of years
<v Speaker 1>evolving in place, et cetera. But you know, plants definer region.
<v Speaker 1>But but yeah, I mean, you really can't like a
<v Speaker 1>lot of these cool aquatics, like I have questions about that.
<v Speaker 1>I want to learn about uh ninfea Mexicana. That's a
<v Speaker 1>rare one supposedly, right, is it. It's like, oh, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>you can't find that in the nursery trade.
<v Speaker 2>You can't, and you well you can. It won't be
<v Speaker 2>Texas Genetics though, It'll be Florida. And I'm super excited
<v Speaker 2>because I just found a new population of that up Waco.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, James Peace was telling me about that.
<v Speaker 2>What the fuck birds? Huh? Probably, I mean it could
<v Speaker 2>have been it gives a pond, it could have been planted.
<v Speaker 2>We don't know. I'm sending Genetics off probably pretty soon
<v Speaker 2>to see. I definitely know it's not a hybrid. I'm
<v Speaker 2>pretty sure it's not a hybrid. But my geneticis guy
<v Speaker 2>can doctor Tippery at University of Whitewater.
<v Speaker 1>Regions do you look at when you're doing aquatics?
<v Speaker 2>Like, I don't know, I don't do. You'll have to
<v Speaker 2>ask system A system, system taxonomous.
<v Speaker 1>Keep going.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but he feels confident that we can differentiate on
<v Speaker 2>a certain sequence between Florida Genetics and Texas Mexico. And
<v Speaker 2>so I'm gonna send it to him and see if
<v Speaker 2>that can be done. And if it's a Texas population
<v Speaker 2>of Texas Genetics, then we've got a gold mine. That's
<v Speaker 2>one plant that again, you look in the vouchers and
<v Speaker 2>and you look on bon Nap and it has multiple
<v Speaker 2>county distribution and then you go to those locations and
<v Speaker 2>it's not there anymore. And so it's definitely what one
<v Speaker 2>that's disappeared without people really realizing that it's disappearing.
<v Speaker 1>So give everybody some context there. Nimphia is the quote
<v Speaker 1>unquote water lily is there at the base of the
<v Speaker 1>angiosperm family tree, like I think, like right above Amberella, right,
<v Speaker 1>it's like like I think, I think it's like the
<v Speaker 1>next fan. It's like yeah, like really basally, so what
<v Speaker 1>is what is the dominant Ninphaea? But they're also super
<v Speaker 1>popular among collectors and horticulture, and that of course hybrid Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>and confuses where what's native here? What evolved there? What's
<v Speaker 1>the result of natural selection in a certain place versus
<v Speaker 1>being introduced by people? So what is the dominant Nimphaea
<v Speaker 1>species that you see? And horticulture, what's one of the
<v Speaker 1>more common native ones? And why is Ninmphaya mexicana so special?
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm not sure about the horticulture trade because there
<v Speaker 2>are so many hybrids they've used. Odorata is they're really
<v Speaker 2>common or common North American species white water lily, and
<v Speaker 2>that that will go all the way up you know,
<v Speaker 2>into up the Atlantic coast almost Canada probably, And so
<v Speaker 2>they've used that for a hybrid and hybridized that with
<v Speaker 2>I guess South American and Australian species maybe. So I'm
<v Speaker 2>not sure about the horticulture aspect because they have hybridized.
<v Speaker 2>But as far as in Texas, the most common wire
<v Speaker 2>lily you'll see is not even an it's new far
<v Speaker 2>or spatter dot.
<v Speaker 1>And really is that same family.
<v Speaker 2>It's a native, yeah, and it's of the four native
<v Speaker 2>water lily species we have in Texas. It's really the
<v Speaker 2>only one that you'll see growing in rivers and ponds
<v Speaker 2>and lakes, and so it can actually take our We
<v Speaker 2>actually see it growing in a whole country stream and
<v Speaker 2>it can survive a flash flood event. It has a
<v Speaker 2>massive root system. And so that's in Texas. That's really
<v Speaker 2>the more common species then the white water lily. You'll
<v Speaker 2>see in East Texas, uh, pretty regularly. You won't see
<v Speaker 2>Ninfea elegans the blue water lily until you get down
<v Speaker 2>to Riogran Valley and some parts along the coast.
<v Speaker 1>And so again these are all natives, right, right right.
<v Speaker 2>And uh infea eligans we thought I thought was actually
<v Speaker 2>kind of rare. But it's only rare because it can
<v Speaker 2>go dormant and so when you go look for it,
<v Speaker 2>where it is might be dry, but when you get
<v Speaker 2>the right type of rain, there's there's populations of it
<v Speaker 2>all over the place.
<v Speaker 1>Mphaea, So it can go dormant and just kind of
<v Speaker 1>hide in the muck.
<v Speaker 2>Or what is it that? Oh yeah, it produces like
<v Speaker 2>a walnut. None of the other native water lilies do this.
<v Speaker 2>Probably the Australian water lilies do is their drought. They
<v Speaker 2>have to deal with drought too. But this one produces
<v Speaker 2>like a walnut size woody corn or tuber and it'll
<v Speaker 2>just sit there in the soil, you know, a foot
<v Speaker 2>six inches or twelve inches in the clay soil, and
<v Speaker 2>you know, clay with that depth probably stays holds a
<v Speaker 2>little bit moisture enough to keep it alive. And uh,
<v Speaker 2>and it'll they'll sit there for decades. Jesus, I'm just waiting.
<v Speaker 2>That's insane.
<v Speaker 1>That's fun.
<v Speaker 2>It's crazy.
<v Speaker 1>That's like I thought. You know, there's that study about
<v Speaker 1>a barrel cac this that was kept in a closet
<v Speaker 1>for like five years and when they brought it out,
<v Speaker 1>it just started growing again. Like I thought that was impressive,
<v Speaker 1>but yeah, but this is not. I mean, that's pretty wild.
<v Speaker 1>So it so personally, it can like completely dry out,
<v Speaker 1>like if that play bakes and turns into a brick,
<v Speaker 1>because they've got that verdict, you know, uh uh quality.
<v Speaker 1>It can just basically stay in there and go dorm
<v Speaker 1>it for a few decades.
<v Speaker 2>Yep, yep. And and then once it's you know, once
<v Speaker 2>you get water, and that's you're going back to the trigger.
<v Speaker 2>We don't really know what triggers them to decide that
<v Speaker 2>it's okay to come out, because if they if you
<v Speaker 2>get a little bit of rain and standing water, you know,
<v Speaker 2>and they decide to emerge, they might not have enough time.
<v Speaker 2>They may be wasting their time and losing losing their energy, right,
<v Speaker 2>And so there's gotta be some trigger. Yeah, there's gotta
<v Speaker 2>be some sort of trigger in their physiology that says, Okay,
<v Speaker 2>there's enough water, I can afford to spend my energy
<v Speaker 2>and grow my grow my leaves and come out and bloom.
<v Speaker 1>God.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's crazy, it's crazy. And and I even take
<v Speaker 2>mine now, So I'm starting to grow them because you
<v Speaker 2>don't really see them at all in cultivation. And I'll
<v Speaker 2>take mine out and actually drive them out for a
<v Speaker 2>little bit and let them go dormant and go back
<v Speaker 2>to their tuber And they seem to kind of need
<v Speaker 2>that to stay stay viable for a long period of time.
<v Speaker 1>They need a little slight recharge period.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, right, yeah, a little bit of dormancy. Do you
<v Speaker 2>do you have? Is there? Is there?
<v Speaker 1>But I don't, I just I don't want to get
<v Speaker 1>sidetracked too far here. But is there a good book
<v Speaker 1>on on aquatic plants in general, even if it's a textbook,
<v Speaker 1>and especially one? Is there one on Texas native Not?
<v Speaker 2>Really? No, not in Texas? I mean the Texas one
<v Speaker 2>I use is? Was it Aquatic Plants of the Western
<v Speaker 2>Gulf Coast by Stutson Bucker. And it's mostly golf plants,
<v Speaker 2>but it covers a lot of It covers enough species
<v Speaker 2>and families to help you really get through some of
<v Speaker 2>the inlands issues too, if you're really into taxonomy. I
<v Speaker 2>have Aquatic dicloud Leedons and monoclaud Leedings in North America
<v Speaker 2>by Don Less.
<v Speaker 1>What about just learning about the traits in different families
<v Speaker 1>and genera and you know, like dormancy mechanisms, all this
<v Speaker 1>kind of oka is there? So is there a good
<v Speaker 1>textbook I guess you could recommend.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there is Wellland Plants Biology and Ecology, Kronk and Finasy. Okay,
<v Speaker 2>the good good.
<v Speaker 1>Textbook Wetland Plants by Kronk.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Wetland Plants Biology and Ecology, Kronk and Finasy. That's
<v Speaker 2>my go to. Uh, if you're really into old, nice
<v Speaker 2>fundamental literature, there's see this book was written in nineteen
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty seven, first published, and that is the Biology
<v Speaker 2>of a quite a rescular plants a CDs skull forward
<v Speaker 2>and I use that a lot for fundamental course.
<v Speaker 1>The Wetland Plants Biology and Ecology is on libgen that
<v Speaker 1>I everybody. If you need it in PDF form, you
<v Speaker 1>don't want to pay one hundred and sixty bucks. I
<v Speaker 1>don't know what the newest edition is, but uh.
<v Speaker 2>That's probably it. It probably hasn't changed.
<v Speaker 1>Much edition, you think, so, Maybe I don't know. Maybe
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but this is again, this is so
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's it's fucking wild man. It's it's crazy
<v Speaker 1>to know, especially some of these I mean plants and
<v Speaker 1>deserts generally produce long lived seeds or have a cool
<v Speaker 1>dormancy mechanism. But especially man, I imagine if you're an
<v Speaker 1>aquatic plant, because there are little aquatic oases in arid
<v Speaker 1>regions all over the world obviously, but I mean, goddamn
<v Speaker 1>that the stress is that much more intense than a
<v Speaker 1>place where water can dry up so quick because the
<v Speaker 1>air is like a dry sponge. It's just you know, evapora,
<v Speaker 1>evaporation is just that much faster engines.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's that's really why I like going to
<v Speaker 2>Wessex's so much and looking at those plants and getting
<v Speaker 2>out to those desert areas at the right time. It's
<v Speaker 2>frustrating when when you go out there and you know,
<v Speaker 2>obviously it's been dry, there's no water, when when we
<v Speaker 2>should be having one soon. But but man, it's worth
<v Speaker 2>it when when it is wet, wet, and you have
<v Speaker 2>tons of really cool cool stuff.
<v Speaker 1>What is tell me about Marcella because that's the cool
<v Speaker 1>that clover looking fern.
<v Speaker 2>Clover fern.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what's the species out there? I bought it at
<v Speaker 1>a at a native plant sale on Alpine and I've
<v Speaker 1>kept it alive. I mean, it dried out once and
<v Speaker 1>I thought I'd totally lost it and it died, but
<v Speaker 1>then I just put it in water and it came back.
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, it'll it'll come back. So out there should
<v Speaker 2>be mollus m O l o I.
<v Speaker 1>S yeah, yeah, wooly yea yeah, and that will.
<v Speaker 2>Go well, that will go down to South Texas as well.
<v Speaker 2>I think it goes all the way into Mexico around
<v Speaker 2>here along the coast. Mostly you'll have Macropoda Marsilia macropoda.
<v Speaker 2>And then once you get once you get in which
<v Speaker 2>Macropoda is kind of a wet plant. Wet plant. It's
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't really like submerge, being submerged or staining water.
<v Speaker 2>It just likes wet soil. Macropoda macropoda. Yeah, and then
<v Speaker 2>Bastida bastida. You'll find more inland and that one will
<v Speaker 2>actually grow in water submerged and it will make a
<v Speaker 2>little floating the clover for the clover leaves will we'll
<v Speaker 2>float it.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, there's one I took from your house. Thank you
<v Speaker 1>for being cool about that, by the way, because at home,
<v Speaker 1>but you know, I'm good for it, you know, I'm
<v Speaker 1>goddamn good for it. I didn't take anything that was
<v Speaker 1>that was rare or not in a huge clob. Okay,
<v Speaker 1>so what what is the one I took from your
<v Speaker 1>house that was marcella?
<v Speaker 2>Uh, that should have that's a macropoda.
<v Speaker 1>Macropoda okay, So that it doesn't like perpetually wet feet.
<v Speaker 2>I mean it likes perpetually wet feet. It does not
<v Speaker 2>like being submerged.
<v Speaker 1>Submerged okay, cool?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So it will not grow. It will so like
<v Speaker 2>mestita will grow and grow, some will change over into
<v Speaker 2>kind of a submerged or floating leaf form. Macropoda, it
<v Speaker 2>just dies. I've I've killed it multiple times trying to
<v Speaker 2>put it in water, and it just it doesn't. It
<v Speaker 2>can't change its growth form. So it just dies. What
<v Speaker 2>is it?
<v Speaker 1>I mean?
<v Speaker 2>What is it?
<v Speaker 1>Can it completely dry out? Does it have a dormancy mechanism?
<v Speaker 2>It can't.
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, So if it dries out, you forget the water,
<v Speaker 1>because I got one just inside under lights and that'll
<v Speaker 1>be fine. If it dries out, it'll.
<v Speaker 2>Just it'll just turn brown and it'll go it'll go
<v Speaker 2>dormant on the coast. If they haven't had a lot
<v Speaker 2>of rain. You're driving, there's a couple of county roads.
<v Speaker 2>It's just acres of it, and and you'll see that
<v Speaker 2>an they'll leaves will or will kind of close up
<v Speaker 2>and shribble up and turn brown. You just see acres
<v Speaker 2>of brown fern. And then when you go back when
<v Speaker 2>it's wet, it's acres of just like this silvery gray foliage.
<v Speaker 1>Where feels that like, where does it produce spores?
<v Speaker 2>So it'll be down at the soil sometimes there at
<v Speaker 2>the soil level, or even underneath the soil, so you
<v Speaker 2>have to dig it up, and they don't go up.
<v Speaker 1>They don't.
<v Speaker 2>They don't, not really, I mean they will a little
<v Speaker 2>bit on some depending on species. Probably.
<v Speaker 1>Do they look different from the just vegetative leaves.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, that's the main identification characteristic on some of
<v Speaker 2>these is uh, the shape and if it has tubercles
<v Speaker 2>or the number of tubercoles, whatever their terminology is. But
<v Speaker 2>generally you can identify them pretty easily with just the characteristics.
<v Speaker 2>So and their distribution where they where you find them. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>that's so wid The aquatic ferns, The aquatic ferns are amazing.
<v Speaker 2>I'm I'm just now getting into ferns. James and I
<v Speaker 2>are we're kind of just now realizing coming to terms
<v Speaker 2>with their fern lack of knowledge on ferns, and and
<v Speaker 2>the aquatic ferns are absolutely amazing. And then you get
<v Speaker 2>into the desert ferns that still have to have water,
<v Speaker 2>you know, two sexually reproduce. Are they an aquatic plant?
<v Speaker 2>I mean in kind of a way they are.
<v Speaker 1>What what are you talking about or what?
<v Speaker 2>Well, just the just the desert ferns in general, like yeah, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>so but anyway, Yeah, the ferns are pretty cool roup
<v Speaker 2>of plants.
<v Speaker 1>What's your take on what's your take on azola? There's
<v Speaker 1>there's some that are really invasive, right, and then there's some.
<v Speaker 2>So now they've lumped Yeah, I believe they lumped Caroliniana
<v Speaker 2>and uh Filiculoides, which is supposed to go for Mexico
<v Speaker 2>around the Gulf, I think the Atlantic coast, So they
<v Speaker 2>lumped it. As far as I know, it seems to
<v Speaker 2>be native. There are some non native species that can
<v Speaker 2>I think have been popping up, but I don't know
<v Speaker 2>much about about those.
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, so both yeah, So the two dominant azolas
<v Speaker 1>in Texas are both native.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what's the other one?
<v Speaker 1>Uh, there's Caroliniana and Filiculoides, and then there's Microphyla and Cristata.
<v Speaker 2>Micro I think Microphila and Cristoda. Is it Cristata you
<v Speaker 2>see in the West Texas. What's the distribution?
<v Speaker 1>One of those is invasive, right or are they both invasive?
<v Speaker 2>I don't good question. So there is a record of
<v Speaker 2>a different species, not Filiculoides and not not Caroliniana at
<v Speaker 2>the soul ross and I haven't really seen a zola
<v Speaker 2>in West Texas. If we have, we haven't really looked
<v Speaker 2>at it under a microscope. We probably should do that.
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.
<v Speaker 1>It's just grows so fast. I had some that I
<v Speaker 1>kept in a little bin in Oakland and it would
<v Speaker 1>just yeah, it would just form this thick when I
<v Speaker 1>used to live in California and form this thick.
<v Speaker 2>Matt, Yeah, yeah, Well I mean they're they're they're nitrogen
<v Speaker 2>fixed fixations fixators.
<v Speaker 1>And so they've got cyano right, Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I think that, yes, Yeah, I think that's really cool.
<v Speaker 1>So where do they keep it? You know, like where
<v Speaker 1>where do they know? Because they've got to have you know,
<v Speaker 1>a low a low oxygen environment for that nitrogen enzyme
<v Speaker 1>to or that nitrogen ate enzyme to function. God, man,
<v Speaker 1>that that's that's so cool. Yeah, all those knife fixers
<v Speaker 1>are cool, like Gunnera not aquatic, but like gunnerra in
<v Speaker 1>signus or Tinctoria. You know, they keep the cynobacteria. But yeah,
<v Speaker 1>you know, plants like like gunner by the way they
<v Speaker 1>do nitrogen fixation like just you know, basically creating these
<v Speaker 1>little structures in their stems where they can harbor cyanobacteria
<v Speaker 1>that fix nitrogen for them. I've always been pretty pretty uh,
<v Speaker 1>I guess, enthralled by learning about that. But but I
<v Speaker 1>want them, you know, in talking about aquatics, I want
<v Speaker 1>to keep I want to guess, I guess I just
<v Speaker 1>want to get more of an idea of you know,
<v Speaker 1>how these plants behave in the ecosystem, the different stresses
<v Speaker 1>facing plants that are growing completely submerged, what they've got
<v Speaker 1>to deal with, Like like plants that grow. You know,
<v Speaker 1>deserts are tend to be pretty salty because of the
<v Speaker 1>high evaporation rate and the exposed rock, and so you know,
<v Speaker 1>when it rains in the desert, there's a ton of
<v Speaker 1>minerals being washed into wherever that water pulls up and
<v Speaker 1>takes them. And then you know, many places in desert,
<v Speaker 1>like even arroyos, the water evaporates so quick that it
<v Speaker 1>precipitates out whatever it was carrying. That means, I mean,
<v Speaker 1>how does some of the desert aquatics deal with the
<v Speaker 1>increased salinity levels and mineral content.
<v Speaker 2>Well, some of them are just adapted, adapted to take it.
<v Speaker 2>You know, generally on coastal plants and your your halophytes
<v Speaker 2>and which can be coastal in West Texas plants in Texas, Uh,
<v Speaker 2>sodium chloride is is the main I mean that's an
<v Speaker 2>instant killer magnesium and carbonate and allo other things. They
<v Speaker 2>in ways they need those minerals. So if the sodium
<v Speaker 2>sodium chloride doesn't get too high or too concentrated, they
<v Speaker 2>can process that and you excrete it through certain adaptive structures.
<v Speaker 2>You know. What's pretty calming that people know this, but
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, so it's it's really uh, you know, excreeting
<v Speaker 2>it going. I mean back to the dormancy. Dormancy is
<v Speaker 2>kind of a protective mechanism too.
<v Speaker 1>But sodium aide for plants that grow close to the coast,
<v Speaker 1>I mean just typical actual salt versus you know, dissolved
<v Speaker 1>more just a diverse array of dissolved solids further inland
<v Speaker 1>and desert places. I mean, what is that something you
<v Speaker 1>have to think about if you're growing desert plant or
<v Speaker 1>desert aquatics, or or monitoring them or what?
<v Speaker 2>Right? Right? Yeah, So so there's two things on this.
<v Speaker 2>If if you're growing a a halo fight, let's say
<v Speaker 2>Rupia rupuas sarusa was maritima, So I was growing some
<v Speaker 2>of that for a restoration project, and you're thinking seawater,
<v Speaker 2>but really I was just making sure it had magnesium
<v Speaker 2>and calcium carbonate in in the pool I was growing
<v Speaker 2>it in and it did perfectly fine, and it can
<v Speaker 2>grow in somewhat fresh water. And so these plants that
<v Speaker 2>we we think are need salt sodium chloride live in
<v Speaker 2>salty environments. They don't really need the sodium chloride. They
<v Speaker 2>need kind of the other dissolved solids and for their
<v Speaker 2>for their growth, and they just excreete sodium chloride as
<v Speaker 2>best they can. And the sodium chloride concentrations get too high,
<v Speaker 2>like in a drought which we've been going through in
<v Speaker 2>the coast, and that can cause permanent damage. They just
<v Speaker 2>can't handle it. HM. So that's that's one way West
<v Speaker 2>Texas plants again, they can go dormant. They've just learned
<v Speaker 2>to adapt to it.
<v Speaker 1>Distilled water is probably really bad for a lot of
<v Speaker 1>these things though, Huh.
<v Speaker 2>The steeled water is, yes, but rain water. There are
<v Speaker 2>plants that I've tried to grow, especially the Davis Mountain plants.
<v Speaker 2>I'll collect them in the Davis Mountains and bring them here,
<v Speaker 2>and they die instantly because our water has too much
<v Speaker 2>probably dissolved solids.
<v Speaker 1>No ship, what is it?
<v Speaker 2>Do you know? What? You're like? What it? It's pretty high?
<v Speaker 2>It's high. I don't I don't know exactly what it
<v Speaker 2>is out of the tap right, It's like it's probably
<v Speaker 2>it's probably not that high. I'd say it's probably three
<v Speaker 2>hundred around three fifty here. Why is that? But I
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Well, because we we get a lot of
<v Speaker 2>our water from the aquifer and then and then our
<v Speaker 2>surface water comes comes off of the Edwards Toe, which
<v Speaker 2>is all limestone. So it's just naturally hard.
<v Speaker 1>Right, Whereas mountains volcanic, primarily volcanic, they low nutrients, low
<v Speaker 1>lower fish pH.
<v Speaker 2>And so when I try and ring those here, I
<v Speaker 2>can't grow them. They just instantly die, and so they
<v Speaker 2>really need that rain. The kind of more cidic rainwater,
<v Speaker 2>and so I try that, I try and collect rain
<v Speaker 2>water to grow those, but then if it doesn't rain,
<v Speaker 2>you know, run out. And so I've never had luck.
<v Speaker 1>Can you do, like, what about we're like a reverse osmosis,
<v Speaker 1>like just like understinate filter that'll lower T to like fifteen.
<v Speaker 2>I don't, yeah, I don't that could be. That could
<v Speaker 2>definitely be an option. But I mean the Davis Mountains plants,
<v Speaker 2>you know, there's really not not a not a need
<v Speaker 2>for them restoration wise. So what's the stuff I grow
<v Speaker 2>and quantity I'm using for restoration.
<v Speaker 1>But I guess that's something to think about though. As
<v Speaker 1>the geology, I mean, volcanic rocks are, They've got other
<v Speaker 1>stuff in there, but it's primarily still They've got a
<v Speaker 1>much silica content, whereas like a limestone is all easily
<v Speaker 1>dissolved generally speaking, easily dissolvable calcium carbonate and other minerals.
<v Speaker 1>So there's been less stuff dissolved. And if you've got
<v Speaker 1>a volcanic geology, I would assume right.
<v Speaker 2>Right absolutely, And and well I'll talk about this and
<v Speaker 2>then we'll go back to the salinity. Because the seliny
<v Speaker 2>thing is actually important. I have some important first seeing
<v Speaker 2>and experience with that one. But so in the West
<v Speaker 2>Texas plants, yeah, I mean they're they're used to to
<v Speaker 2>kind of this lower pH low nutrient you know, dominant, dominant,
<v Speaker 2>dominant waters coming from rainfall flows over the landscape. It
<v Speaker 2>doesn't really pick up a whole lot of nutrients or minerals,
<v Speaker 2>so it's still pretty pretty low in teds and but
<v Speaker 2>kim behind alkalinity once it gets to the streams, and
<v Speaker 2>so that's what they need. But what's kind of happening
<v Speaker 2>I think in West Texas is just with land use
<v Speaker 2>changes and and exotic invasive hoofstock and cattle and themes,
<v Speaker 2>and this irregular monsoon season, we're kind of getting these
<v Speaker 2>nutriant pulses that come down these systems now and these
<v Speaker 2>plants can't really handle that. And what that turns over
<v Speaker 2>the what turns into is is other competing aquatic plants
<v Speaker 2>and algae that dominate these streams. And so that's what
<v Speaker 2>I've been seeing. And some of these streams is going
<v Speaker 2>out there after months soon it's all algae. There's not
<v Speaker 2>really any aquatic plants at least.
<v Speaker 1>And so what's going on is that agriculture or what
<v Speaker 1>what is it?
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just I think it's just more nutrients
<v Speaker 2>from Odd Dad and some of these some of these
<v Speaker 2>escaped hoofstock that live up there, and they you know,
<v Speaker 2>their feces concentrates on the mountains because that's where they live.
<v Speaker 2>And then when we don't get a rain for a
<v Speaker 2>long period of time, you just get more and more
<v Speaker 2>manure building up. And then when we finally do get
<v Speaker 2>a rain, you get a flush of all this nutrients
<v Speaker 2>coming down those watersheds. And these plants and these systems
<v Speaker 2>do not they can't handle nutrients. That's there's no top soil.
<v Speaker 2>There's very little top soil, very little microbial activity to
<v Speaker 2>process all that, and so it just goes straight into
<v Speaker 2>the water system and these waterways and what he gets
<v Speaker 2>algae and Assertionium. Watercress is the other aquatic plant I've
<v Speaker 2>seen the most out there. If it's kind of looks
<v Speaker 2>like an impaired system, and so there's you know, those
<v Speaker 2>two species or the algae and the watercress can easily
<v Speaker 2>outcompete any of these other native aquatics.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what is the algae like when you I've always noticed,
<v Speaker 1>especially when I was out West. If you go to
<v Speaker 1>to an area where there's a lot of cattle and
<v Speaker 1>it's really shit, there's like cattle shit everywhere. It's really
<v Speaker 1>it's a really shitty area. Literally, what is that that
<v Speaker 1>you get this like ropey green algae that just bundles up.
<v Speaker 1>It looks like not is that a cyanobacteria or an
<v Speaker 1>actual green algae?
<v Speaker 2>So it's a green algae. It'll be filaments. There's multiple
<v Speaker 2>types and you have to look at them in a microscope.
<v Speaker 2>The really easy one to identify, uh is sparrogyra, and
<v Speaker 2>it would be really bright, kind of lime green, and
<v Speaker 2>if you look at it under a microscope, the core,
<v Speaker 2>the core plast will be spiral, and so hence the
<v Speaker 2>name is sparalgyra, And that's really the most common one
<v Speaker 2>I've seen, especially in West Texas. Yeah, really quick growing species.
<v Speaker 2>But you also have Plidelphera and Photigonium and other things
<v Speaker 2>that that can grow out there.
<v Speaker 1>So so these are native algae that just thrive. They
<v Speaker 1>are they native, They just thrive when they get a
<v Speaker 1>nitrogen boost.
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, right, I mean, i mean I'm assuming they're native.
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure most filmentos algae are probably globally, we'll be
<v Speaker 2>globally distributed just because they're so common. But yeah, I
<v Speaker 2>mean they they just love that nutrient pulse and they
<v Speaker 2>can grow really fast and so and that's kind of
<v Speaker 2>a conundrum on those plants out there, is really how
<v Speaker 2>do you conserve them? I mean, if you can't, if
<v Speaker 2>you can't really grow them, it's hard to grow them
<v Speaker 2>in in a X situ situation. Really the only way
<v Speaker 2>to conserve them is in situ conservation.
<v Speaker 1>So, God, the audited thing is really bad. And I
<v Speaker 1>was up in some really like really cool conservation properties
<v Speaker 1>in West Texas down by Presidio and uh and there
<v Speaker 1>were there was auded damage everywhere there. They're eating legi gia.
<v Speaker 1>They're eating things that have never eating plants that have
<v Speaker 1>never had to worry about anything eating them right, and
<v Speaker 1>they're they're just denuding the landscape. It was cool. There
<v Speaker 1>was one property I saw where a mountain lion, Like
<v Speaker 1>we saw the mountain lion there. It was there. It
<v Speaker 1>had just killed a young odd ad and like the
<v Speaker 1>meat hadn't even attracted flies yet, like it was just fresh.
<v Speaker 1>It smelled like a butcher shop. Yeah, we came up
<v Speaker 1>on the kill and the mountain lion dipped out when
<v Speaker 1>we got there, and then you know, I'm sure it
<v Speaker 1>came back. We were in the middle of nowhere, we
<v Speaker 1>came back and or we left, and I'm sure it
<v Speaker 1>came back and devoured the thing. But the odd ad
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you'll see like three hundred of these things
<v Speaker 1>at a time, like huge herds, and people don't understand,
<v Speaker 1>you know a lot of people don't. I mean, they
<v Speaker 1>need to be called, they need to be there's nothing
<v Speaker 1>to keep them in check. They're way out of what
<v Speaker 1>they didn't evolve here. They're invasive basically. Uh, and they
<v Speaker 1>can really fuck up the ecosystem, right why right, And.
<v Speaker 2>You've and you've already kind of damaged that system those
<v Speaker 2>habitats with overgrazing, you know, with cattle and sheep over
<v Speaker 2>the last couple of years, so they're already deteriorated. And
<v Speaker 2>then and then you just have this problem and uh
<v Speaker 2>and so yeah, I mean from the aquatic standpoint. And
<v Speaker 2>then also these streams are not monitored, like you know,
<v Speaker 2>they're not monitored really by any organization. Maybe Borderlands Research
<v Speaker 2>Institute as so as West Texas entities will monitor a
<v Speaker 2>few of them, but they're not flowing most of the
<v Speaker 2>time of the year, and so they're not really major
<v Speaker 2>creeks or waterways and any as compared to others. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>and so yeah, I mean it's hard. There's no baseline
<v Speaker 2>data on the water quality, and so it's just a
<v Speaker 2>conundrum that again is happening without people really understanding that
<v Speaker 2>it's occurring.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and there's little there's few people studying it, and
<v Speaker 1>there's probably not any funds to study this. I mean
<v Speaker 1>that's the thing. If there's people studying, it's probably people
<v Speaker 1>that just love it and want to learn more on
<v Speaker 1>our collecting data and understand the importance of it. You know,
<v Speaker 1>it's like so many things in this state, it's like
<v Speaker 1>private people just doing that. You know, it's private parties
<v Speaker 1>doing a lot of the conservation because the state doesn't
<v Speaker 1>really care. Ye okay, Well, going back to going back
<v Speaker 1>to like that lake in Austin, that the Colorado River
<v Speaker 1>beneath the back bridge, I mean, what, like these these
<v Speaker 1>plants that grow there are doing an enormous amount of
<v Speaker 1>work filtering water, And I mean, how would you explain
<v Speaker 1>it to someone who who's not interested in plants, who's
<v Speaker 1>not a botanist. Doesn't understand, doesn't innately understand why biodiversity
<v Speaker 1>is important, or what ecosystem services are or why you know,
<v Speaker 1>having this living skin intact is so important that it's
<v Speaker 1>it's basically you know, it evolved there, it's doing, it's
<v Speaker 1>performing a function. It's tied into all these other things
<v Speaker 1>like what are these what are a lot of aquatic
<v Speaker 1>plants doing? What do they do to improve water quality?
<v Speaker 1>Obviously they hold they prevent erosion. What do you want
<v Speaker 1>to give a little spiel about that or a long
<v Speaker 1>spiel about that? Yeah?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So, I mean the main thing we've already discussed
<v Speaker 2>is the filtration. So they're they're very with their physiology.
<v Speaker 2>They've made it easier for themselves to uptake nutrients, and
<v Speaker 2>so an ecosystem level, that's beneficial because that means a
<v Speaker 2>lot of the nutrients can get taken up faster into
<v Speaker 2>the larger nutrient sink into the biomass.
<v Speaker 1>They're literally filters. They don't they don't have to through
<v Speaker 1>their roots. They just absorbed now every part of their.
<v Speaker 2>Tissues, yes, yeah, yeah, And then that's just the plant.
<v Speaker 2>Then you're talking about all the microbial action on the
<v Speaker 2>surface of the plant, and you know, if you actually
<v Speaker 2>measured like a cobomba plant steel, they would probably have
<v Speaker 2>several were feet of surface area. It's just finally divided
<v Speaker 2>and there's a there's some really cool literature papers on that.
<v Speaker 2>But all of that surface area provides growing habits apt
<v Speaker 2>for microbes, bacteria, and fungus. What are they Well, they're
<v Speaker 2>they're uptaking nutrients too, right, they're filtering and so that's
<v Speaker 2>probably just as important, uh and just as impactful as
<v Speaker 2>the plant actually doing it itself.
<v Speaker 1>So underwater fungi yeah, wow, do you know what?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there's a whole I don't know, I don't know,
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole if you look it up on Google,
<v Speaker 2>there's a whole kind of this new process of using
<v Speaker 2>aquatic fungi for waste sore treatment. It's pretty pretty interesting.
<v Speaker 2>So cool, yeah mhm. But yeah, and so that's that's
<v Speaker 2>one thing.
<v Speaker 1>Uhait really quick with with fungi. What's cool too, is
<v Speaker 1>that they're not just absorbed being in bioaccumulating uh you know,
<v Speaker 1>toxins and pollutants. They're actually they secrete enzymes that can
<v Speaker 1>break these things down in a lot of cases too,
<v Speaker 1>like they I mean, that's what fungi do they're they're heterotrophs.
<v Speaker 2>They break, They're actually getting they're actually getting rid of
<v Speaker 2>the plutants, not just ticking.
<v Speaker 1>Them up, right, like actually breaking them down and helping
<v Speaker 1>them degrade.
<v Speaker 2>Right? What what?
<v Speaker 1>What is the you said? People can if they want
<v Speaker 1>to learn more about this aspect of using aquatic fungi
<v Speaker 1>to break down pollutants.
<v Speaker 2>You just have to google aquatic fun fungi and wastewater treatment.
<v Speaker 2>There's there's a website. I don't remember his name. It's
<v Speaker 2>like a funk fun guy. I don't know, I don't know.
<v Speaker 1>But pellets performed by Filamentus fungi provide excellent treatment efficiency.
<v Speaker 1>Filamentus fungi simplify the harvest thing and recovery of byproduct.
<v Speaker 1>The other's something on Science Direct, like a remediation of wastewater.
<v Speaker 1>No ship, Oh this is cool.
<v Speaker 2>This is brand new stuff. I mean I just learned this.
<v Speaker 2>Somebody was talking telling me about this a year or
<v Speaker 2>two ago, so it's new research. Back in the day,
<v Speaker 2>they thought they were going to use ponted area or
<v Speaker 2>a cornea the water hyacinth for phytoremediation and wastewater treatment,
<v Speaker 2>and it became a major invasive plant, so they stopped
<v Speaker 2>that process.
<v Speaker 1>I wonder if there's ever gonna be a day when
<v Speaker 1>you can like drive by the ship plant, for instance,
<v Speaker 1>and there's gonna be those ponds will be filled with
<v Speaker 1>like a diversity of aquatic you know.
<v Speaker 2>So that's I was telling this to my so. I
<v Speaker 2>did a Native Plant Society talk the other day and
<v Speaker 2>that was one of the questions that came up. And
<v Speaker 2>in Texas, when we release the waste water treatment, it
<v Speaker 2>is clear of bacteria. It's clean, super clear, generally low
<v Speaker 2>bacteria account. I mean, it's technically plaudible when it leaves
<v Speaker 2>waste to our stretment plants. It's just high in nutrients.
<v Speaker 2>And so we release it into our streams, right and
<v Speaker 2>with the thinking that the streams are going to have
<v Speaker 2>the ecology, the functional ecology to do the rest of
<v Speaker 2>the process. Well, at the same time we're doing that,
<v Speaker 2>we're destroying our raparian and aquatic habitats in the streams
<v Speaker 2>that we're relying on to complete that process. And so
<v Speaker 2>that process is not getting completed. And so I think
<v Speaker 2>there's going to going to come a time when the
<v Speaker 2>final polishing in our wastewater is going to be a
<v Speaker 2>wetland or a sedge bed or some sort of aquatic habitat.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's kind of mind blowing that we're not there already.
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, go ahead, It would be easy, is It just
<v Speaker 2>takes some creative thought and some engineers to decide to
<v Speaker 2>do it. It's really all about engineering. But yeah, I
<v Speaker 2>mean I think that's that's really what we need to
<v Speaker 2>go to and it would be way more efficient in
<v Speaker 2>our process now.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's like it's like so many things though.
<v Speaker 1>It's I mean, we're so as a society disconnected, and
<v Speaker 1>we have so little reverence and respect for these living
<v Speaker 1>systems around us, and just ignorance of them too, that
<v Speaker 1>we're it's just not even pragmatic, you know, like our
<v Speaker 1>way of doing it, like we're we're stepping over a
<v Speaker 1>dollar to get a dime. We're making things we're doing
<v Speaker 1>such a harder. We're making things so much harder and
<v Speaker 1>putting so much more energy than need be. If we
<v Speaker 1>would just study, study the living things around us and
<v Speaker 1>understand how they can make our lives better.
<v Speaker 2>And that's what it comes from, is just this lack
<v Speaker 2>of lack of understanding. I mean, like I said, when
<v Speaker 2>I'm looking at some of this stuff. There's very little
<v Speaker 2>literature on any of it. And if it is, it's
<v Speaker 2>older literature hasn't really been replicated, and there's just just
<v Speaker 2>like a giant like hole and native aquatic plants and
<v Speaker 2>how to use them and ecology and frustration.
<v Speaker 1>Even so, yeah, I bet there's very little out there too.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, because you talk about, you know, plants doing bioremediation,
<v Speaker 1>most people think, oh, it's just the plant itself, it's
<v Speaker 1>just out there, it's just sucking up this these toxins
<v Speaker 1>quote unquote and and bioaccumulating them, and there's not you know,
<v Speaker 1>but it's actually that it's not just the plant. It's
<v Speaker 1>the plant acting is a surface for other microbes. You know,
<v Speaker 1>a plethora of microbe species that are really doing a
<v Speaker 1>lot of the hard work and that that you know,
<v Speaker 1>we just we can't see them, so no one thinks
<v Speaker 1>about it. I mean, there's there's so much ignorance on
<v Speaker 1>this this topic. Man, it's fucking crazy. It's yeah, like
<v Speaker 1>I said, it's kind of nuts that this is not
<v Speaker 1>already happening. I mean, the whole you know, the planet
<v Speaker 1>we live on is a machine for the life forms
<v Speaker 1>that live on it, and we were like disassembling it
<v Speaker 1>quite idiotically. It's you know, it's weird too though, and
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to shit on Texas too much, but
<v Speaker 1>there's there's a state. There's this being a heavily right
<v Speaker 1>wing state. There's like a there's like an like an
<v Speaker 1>antagonistic attitude towards some of this stuff, like towards science
<v Speaker 1>that I from people and you know, posisions of power
<v Speaker 1>and authority that I encounter, which is like, man, that
<v Speaker 1>shouldn't even be a political thing, like this is just
<v Speaker 1>what makes sense, Like you're you're active, you're acting against
<v Speaker 1>your own interests by turning this into a political thing
<v Speaker 1>because you don't understand it, like you think this is
<v Speaker 1>just like a tree hug or greeny thing. It's so
<v Speaker 1>shit for brain man, Like, come on, let's get past that.
<v Speaker 1>You know, you could still have all your weird, weird
<v Speaker 1>right wing views no offense to anybody, but I bet
<v Speaker 1>there's probably not that many right wingers in my arms.
<v Speaker 1>You can still have all that, but don't make it
<v Speaker 1>about this, Like, don't make this a polarizing issue, like
<v Speaker 1>this is something that everybody should be able to, you.
<v Speaker 2>Know, especially when we're talking about the things like water,
<v Speaker 2>and that's really what that's really what it comes down to.
<v Speaker 2>You and my my aspect of aquatic plants, it's really
<v Speaker 2>a water resources career fundamentally, Like I'm a water resources person,
<v Speaker 2>but the aquatic plants are the thing that I study.
<v Speaker 2>And so especially when it comes down to water resources,
<v Speaker 2>like I said, with the treatment, I mean, we're constantly
<v Speaker 2>bickering about water and having enough water and clean water,
<v Speaker 2>but yet we don't want to do the things that
<v Speaker 2>would promote that. We're increasingly hostile towards some of those things.
<v Speaker 1>And so well, if you're taking payoffs to their credit,
<v Speaker 1>if you're taking payoffs from business interests, you don't want
<v Speaker 1>to piss off your business interest.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it's generally you go, it generally goes towards
<v Speaker 2>engineering and engineering companies rather than biologists and ecologists to
<v Speaker 2>figure out the problem. It's so stupid, That's just how
<v Speaker 2>it is.
<v Speaker 1>It's so stupid. I hope we get past that. I
<v Speaker 1>mean not we I just live here or whatever, but
<v Speaker 1>you know, the people in power running things get past
<v Speaker 1>this and start thinking pragmatically. I think. And all this
<v Speaker 1>stuff starts just education in grade school teaching people about
<v Speaker 1>the living world around you. Yep, you know, I just god,
<v Speaker 1>I just this cult of idiot sya that we're we've
<v Speaker 1>been building in the United States for the last forty
<v Speaker 1>years is just so alarming and depressing, you know. Just
<v Speaker 1>but it doesn't have to be like this. It's you know,
<v Speaker 1>up to If they're not going to do it, then
<v Speaker 1>we have to we have to educate people.
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, so I said in Texas, you have to
<v Speaker 2>yell loud. If you yell loud enough, then you get
<v Speaker 2>listened to. And that's just how it is. And so,
<v Speaker 2>you know, you and myself and some of our other
<v Speaker 2>botany friends were starting to yell loud and educate people.
<v Speaker 2>And I really see the tide training, especially when it
<v Speaker 2>comes the native native plants, Texas data plants and aquatic
<v Speaker 2>wetlands and things. It's starting to become a big issue
<v Speaker 2>because we are realizing some entities, large entities are realizing
<v Speaker 2>that these are this is the focus we need to
<v Speaker 2>be turning towards. And so I see the tide turning,
<v Speaker 2>but not fast enough. I mening, not fast enough. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>the bulldozers are still still moving in So.
<v Speaker 1>I just it's the whole you know, like people like
<v Speaker 1>I always say, like, I'm not an environmentalist. I think
<v Speaker 1>that's a fucking corny word.
<v Speaker 2>I'm not.
<v Speaker 1>That's got nothing to do with the shit I'm into.
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, this is this is what I believe in,
<v Speaker 1>This is what makes sense, This is my experience in
<v Speaker 1>the world. Is all this shit is alive. I don't
<v Speaker 1>have this. I don't live in a bubble, you know,
<v Speaker 1>like like many of us do growing up where you're
<v Speaker 1>just totally ignorant. We can't afford to be ignorant of
<v Speaker 1>these things anymore. This is a fabric that we're We're interwoven.
<v Speaker 1>We're woven into you know, We're sure, whether we like
<v Speaker 1>it or not, we exist the framework of living.
<v Speaker 2>We cannot we cannot escape our are ecology in our environments.
<v Speaker 1>No, it's completely iotic to live disconnected. Yeah right, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>that's yeah. Anyway, So okay, well I want to talk
<v Speaker 1>about DESIGNAA Texana and then I'll let you go. So
<v Speaker 1>that what's up with Designa. This is the genus of
<v Speaker 1>how many species roughly that you well, how many species,
<v Speaker 1>But like there's other species of Designia that are more
<v Speaker 1>common that occur throughout the North America and they're primarily
<v Speaker 1>wetland grasses.
<v Speaker 2>Primarily welland well, I mean obviously they're all wetland grasses.
<v Speaker 2>Let's see who these There's five species, I believe, one
<v Speaker 2>in China and the restaurant North American.
<v Speaker 1>And it's known as wild rice because it's presumably edible
<v Speaker 1>and there's an ethno botanical connection to it. People harvested
<v Speaker 1>this or what.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, And so you go up to Minnesota, you know,
<v Speaker 2>Michigan around the Great Lakes, you'll get a lot of
<v Speaker 2>the wild rice where the Native Americans harvest it and
<v Speaker 2>sell it. And so most of the Azania species. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>So there's Dosania pilusterous, Szania aquatica, Zania taxana, and Cazania
<v Speaker 2>latifolia is the Chinese species. So polusterous will be the
<v Speaker 2>North American UH wild race. Szania aquatica is in Florida
<v Speaker 2>along the Gulf Coast. It does not come into Texas
<v Speaker 2>as far as I know Dozania taxana is our endemic
<v Speaker 2>federally endangered plant, and so Zany aquatica will grow submerged.
<v Speaker 2>Disania polusteris does not grow submerged. It's the emergent UH
<v Speaker 2>and Innzania taxana. The endemic here in tech is it
<v Speaker 2>will grow its dominant form is submerged as the submerged
<v Speaker 2>growth form.
<v Speaker 1>It's such a beautiful plant, man.
<v Speaker 2>It's a gorgeous plant. Yeah. It's very translucent, kind of
<v Speaker 2>lime green, leaves long and stringy. And so that one
<v Speaker 2>earlier early years, so late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds. Uh,
<v Speaker 2>we have some old newspaper clippings of them talking about
<v Speaker 2>how the river was choked full of this grass and
<v Speaker 2>the cattle would would go down to the river and
<v Speaker 2>actually wade into the river and eat the grass, and
<v Speaker 2>it was just so so dominant in the river. Was
<v Speaker 2>that all is Zania tis in them? We don't know,
<v Speaker 2>Maybe maybe not. But it originally was just lumped in
<v Speaker 2>with Hisany aquatica as a as a species of as
<v Speaker 2>zany aquatica until like nineteen thirty is collected and identified.
<v Speaker 2>Hitchclock is the is the the name on it. The
<v Speaker 2>type of specimen is in the Smithsonian, and so it was.
<v Speaker 2>It was identified as its own species around nineteen thirty.
<v Speaker 2>Shortly thereafter nineteen forties, it started becoming less and less
<v Speaker 2>the river was becoming more polluted with the growth in
<v Speaker 2>San Marcus. By nineteen sixty there was only one hundred
<v Speaker 2>individual plants. Amory was the first person to really start
<v Speaker 2>doing a study and so he sixty one hundred and
<v Speaker 2>sixty plants. And I don't know why he was calling
<v Speaker 2>a plant because it is colonial, so it grows in
<v Speaker 2>clumps and each clump has multiple individual plants. So I
<v Speaker 2>don't know if he met one hundred individual clumps and
<v Speaker 2>what size of those clumps were, we don't know. But
<v Speaker 2>but the n so, but it was on. It was
<v Speaker 2>in trouble through the night eeteen sixties. The Endangered Species
<v Speaker 2>Act started coming on. Was it passed in what seventy five,
<v Speaker 2>seventy seven, and it was one of the first plants
<v Speaker 2>on the originally original Endangered Species Act list, And at
<v Speaker 2>that time it was less than a thousand square meters,
<v Speaker 2>probably several hundred. It didn't really it stayed pretty low.
<v Speaker 2>Parks and all life started started doing monitoring on it
<v Speaker 2>and early eighties, so eighty one, and that's when we
<v Speaker 2>actually started getting yearly surveys, so we know how much.
<v Speaker 2>Eighty eighty one it was one thousand, two thousand square
<v Speaker 2>meters and they were worried it was going to go
<v Speaker 2>extinct because they said that it never bloomed. It always
<v Speaker 2>just stayed submerged, and so it was basically functionally it
<v Speaker 2>wasn't it wasn't sexually reproducing.
<v Speaker 1>So it why do you know why, because now it's flowers.
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, and we'll get into that little later. So
<v Speaker 2>that's one of the main reasons they listed it is
<v Speaker 2>because they thought that it was never blooming and it
<v Speaker 2>would just kind of if there was a flood but
<v Speaker 2>the springs went dry, it was dead. There's you can't
<v Speaker 2>conserve the rhizomes. It really doesn't. It doesn't have a dormancy.
<v Speaker 2>It's it's perennial and it can't standing water right right exactly.
<v Speaker 2>It needs and it's flowing water and needs all the
<v Speaker 2>CO two. And what's interesting is it's the CO two obligate,
<v Speaker 2>so it can't used by carbonate, which tells us that
<v Speaker 2>it probably speciated, uh around the end of the last
<v Speaker 2>ice age when CO two was really abundant with all
<v Speaker 2>the melting glacier and all the flowing water and cooler water.
<v Speaker 2>So that's probably it probably spaciated in these and cooler
<v Speaker 2>springs smelt water springs at the where the glaciers were.
<v Speaker 1>Melting sodium, so so bicarbonate and then CO two are
<v Speaker 1>two things that you get. Are they the two primary
<v Speaker 1>sources of carbon dioxide that you get coming off of
<v Speaker 1>limestone in these these.
<v Speaker 2>Limewaters dissolved Yeah, OK, yeah, so CO two would be
<v Speaker 2>the dissolved gas and by carbonate as the dissolved mineral.
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, so it probably speciated in multiple locations. It
<v Speaker 2>was probably white widespread and the last ice age is
<v Speaker 2>the theory. Uh. And then as we got warmer and
<v Speaker 2>the springs started drying up, these outlying populations kind of
<v Speaker 2>went got extirpated. And San Marcus is really the the
<v Speaker 2>as a relic location for the population. So anyway, pretty
<v Speaker 2>pretty much stayed around one thousand of two thousand square
<v Speaker 2>meters up until I guess twenty thirteen. It was getting
<v Speaker 2>out competed by elphan ear call acasia, and then they
<v Speaker 2>were really worried about cryptocriny that gets beckets water. Trumpet,
<v Speaker 2>which is one of those aquatic plants that got introduced
<v Speaker 2>into the system from the Aquarium Plant Company probably is.
<v Speaker 1>That aerid that grows on it's taro.
<v Speaker 2>Tarrow elephant ear, and it was here pretty early on.
<v Speaker 2>We have pictures late eighteen hundreds of it growing along the.
<v Speaker 1>River because it's a crop planet's edible.
<v Speaker 2>Probably, yeah, they there's a couple of theories. They thought
<v Speaker 2>it probably came over with slaves. The slaves planted it
<v Speaker 2>for their for their crop, but it could have It
<v Speaker 2>was also an early ornamental, so it could have been
<v Speaker 2>just ornamentally introduced. And so yeah, so the calucasia was
<v Speaker 2>really really taking over pretty widespread. They were worried about
<v Speaker 2>the cryptocrine. They basically dredged the river for the cryptocrine
<v Speaker 2>and got rid of that one. Uh, And then they
<v Speaker 2>were they didn't really know how to deal with the
<v Speaker 2>cal acasia because there was some hesitancy on using herbicide
<v Speaker 2>and what that would do to the system. And finally
<v Speaker 2>we got a really good restoration program and funding and
<v Speaker 2>they kind of tackled some of the coloccasion and realized
<v Speaker 2>that they could kill it using low levels of herbicide
<v Speaker 2>and that that pretty much dealt with that problem. They
<v Speaker 2>started replanting the wild rice and we went from three
<v Speaker 2>to five thousand square meters about twenty twelve to fourteen
<v Speaker 2>thousand square meters by twenty twenty. Wow, So it just
<v Speaker 2>rebounded like crazy, and then we started seeing it bloom
<v Speaker 2>when people thought that it never would. And then I
<v Speaker 2>as I started surveying it. I started surveying it in
<v Speaker 2>twenty ten as a grad student, and then with my job,
<v Speaker 2>I started serveying it in twenty thirteen, and I've surveyed
<v Speaker 2>it at least once a year since.
<v Speaker 1>And so, but the main reason that it came back
<v Speaker 1>was primarily removal of invasives.
<v Speaker 2>Removal to less than the competition. And then they did
<v Speaker 2>start planting it in areas where they removed the non natives,
<v Speaker 2>and so that moved it. So back to the why
<v Speaker 2>it didn't bloom, And the reason it didn't bloom wasn't
<v Speaker 2>because it It wasn't and it couldn't. It was just
<v Speaker 2>because it had been so restricted through recreation and competition.
<v Speaker 2>It was only only growing submerged in those deep water habitats.
<v Speaker 2>And those deep water habitats it could never bloom. It
<v Speaker 2>would never be able to get it's bloom to the surface.
<v Speaker 2>Either it was too deep or the water velocity was
<v Speaker 2>too fast that it would it would just destroy the
<v Speaker 2>bloom even if it tried.
<v Speaker 1>Was the invasive it was Cola casi And what.
<v Speaker 2>Else cryptocarny crypto that crypto. Yeah. See, my accent is
<v Speaker 2>probably getting in the way of your spelling. That gets
<v Speaker 2>water trumpet.
<v Speaker 1>Cryptom Okay, I'll just look crypt becket c.
<v Speaker 2>R y any crypto, Quorini.
<v Speaker 1>Crypto Yeah, okay, crypto cr c R y p t
<v Speaker 1>O c O r y any yeah any oh god. Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Then this is brought in by aquarium trade basically.
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, it's pretty it's a pretty tolerant species.
<v Speaker 2>So it was from Asia, I believe.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, another.
<v Speaker 2>Yep, damn. And and so anyway, the idea that it
<v Speaker 2>couldn't or wouldn't bloom was just an artifact of it
<v Speaker 2>being restricted to those areas of the river where it
<v Speaker 2>it just couldn't do so. And then once once the
<v Speaker 2>competition was removed and it was planted on the shallow
<v Speaker 2>or habitats, then we start seeing tons of blooming. And
<v Speaker 2>then I started documenting lots of seedlingks and recruitment.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's so really so it's so cool that it
<v Speaker 1>just came back. So when you germinate seed, I mean,
<v Speaker 1>how do you guys grow it?
<v Speaker 2>So I have collected some seed and just put in
<v Speaker 2>a dish and it will germinate immediately. The thing is
<v Speaker 2>with the seed that it it only lasts, it's only
<v Speaker 2>viable for a month or two, so you can't store it.
<v Speaker 2>So it has to be it has to be planted.
<v Speaker 1>And so how would these things get established. That's because
<v Speaker 1>the water in some of these places is two or
<v Speaker 1>three feet deep. Does the seeds sink well?
<v Speaker 2>It gets established? I believe it needs these lower periods
<v Speaker 2>of flow. So just like a tropical a lot of
<v Speaker 2>the tropical aquatic plants in South America they'll do their
<v Speaker 2>submersed growth form when during wet season and then they
<v Speaker 2>won't bloom until dry season when the water level is
<v Speaker 2>lower and they can they can put the flower up
<v Speaker 2>and the flower won't get destroyed by velocity, and so
<v Speaker 2>their flower they'll flower in the dry season. It's something
<v Speaker 2>kind of similar to that where other flowers pretty much
<v Speaker 2>year round. Because we have such a multi temperature, it
<v Speaker 2>really needs those low, low kind of periods where the
<v Speaker 2>seed can drop off the plant and then and then
<v Speaker 2>grow and establish, whereas if it when it flowers and
<v Speaker 2>seeds out during a high flow event, a lot of
<v Speaker 2>seed gets washed downstream before it can establish. So it's
<v Speaker 2>really it's really actually recruiting kind of in these you know,
<v Speaker 2>low flow events that get established in a low flow
<v Speaker 2>at the event.
<v Speaker 1>And bloom time is generally from now through the fall.
<v Speaker 2>I've seen it bloom anytime of the year. I've seen
<v Speaker 2>it bloom. The peak of blooming generally is late summer,
<v Speaker 2>but I've also seen it bloom. You can go out
<v Speaker 2>in June and January and find large colonies blooming. It.
<v Speaker 2>It just kind of depends on the weather and the
<v Speaker 2>life stage of the plant.
<v Speaker 1>So and but dry season is normally when is that winter.
<v Speaker 2>So you know, generally we'll see historically look at the
<v Speaker 2>spring flow, you'll see decrease discharge obviously in like July
<v Speaker 2>and August into September, and that's kind of the peak
<v Speaker 2>season of blooming for the plant. And then you'll start
<v Speaker 2>seeing spring dessert spring discharge from the springs, so cfs
<v Speaker 2>coming up in the fall. It'll kind of peak early
<v Speaker 2>early spring, and they'll start going back down through the summer.
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, lower discharge in August and September and higher
<v Speaker 2>discharge in the winter.
<v Speaker 1>So God, there was there was one spot on the river.
<v Speaker 1>I think it was behind that Aquatic Sciences building in
<v Speaker 1>Saint Marcos. So I was there last weekend where there's
<v Speaker 1>Patrick pointing out there was just water just shooting out
<v Speaker 1>of the ground. I mean not shooting, but bubbling out
<v Speaker 1>of the ground from oh, from the aquifer, probably just
<v Speaker 1>because we've gotten a bunch of rain two weeks prior
<v Speaker 1>or What was that, Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the aquifer went up that July rain we got,
<v Speaker 2>aquifer went up almost ten, which is unheard of in August.
<v Speaker 1>Jesus, that's cool.
<v Speaker 2>Well and heard of in July. That definitely got us
<v Speaker 2>through August. We're we're still in a bad drought. How
<v Speaker 2>Gelogically we're in a drought. Agriculturally, soil wise and moisture wise,
<v Speaker 2>we're okay, but hydrologically we're still in a pre bad
<v Speaker 2>drought in this part. So yeah, rivers, rivers pre low.
<v Speaker 2>It's one of seven cfs right now, This should be
<v Speaker 2>about one ninety.
<v Speaker 1>That's cubic feet per second. Then, yes, so you yep, God,
<v Speaker 1>you're like, yeah, you're tied into this whole other world.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's got to be you know. The things
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I feel like the things I think about
<v Speaker 1>to just moving through the world are so different from
<v Speaker 1>most people. Just out there. I mean, I'm I'm looking
<v Speaker 1>at the world of plants and all this, you know,
<v Speaker 1>whether it's human horticulture or what's growing up in the
<v Speaker 1>cracks in the sidewalk, et cetera. But you're thinking about
<v Speaker 1>all these things related to watersheds and river systems and.
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely and yeah is made like what what is dissolved
<v Speaker 2>in water?
<v Speaker 1>Like what is water composed of? You know, yeah, what
<v Speaker 1>is the river composed of? Yeah?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean we have you have to
<v Speaker 2>worry about all of all of that. That's why I
<v Speaker 2>like the quiet plants, because you have to worry about
<v Speaker 2>your You're combining your I'm combining my fish knowledge, which
<v Speaker 2>would have gone towards learning about fish that I could
<v Speaker 2>never find a job in fisheries management. And I'm combining
<v Speaker 2>that with with my love of plants, and so it
<v Speaker 2>just it meshes perfectly in the larger room of that
<v Speaker 2>is water resources and you know, conserving water and filtering
<v Speaker 2>water and.
<v Speaker 1>Think about the whole world. Yeah, think about this whole
<v Speaker 1>world that most people are just blind to unless they're
<v Speaker 1>going tubing out the river for the weekend, you.
<v Speaker 2>Know, sure, yeah, and then mapping. I have to also
<v Speaker 2>worry about dealing with GIS and how to use a
<v Speaker 2>tremble mapping unit and how to how to make apps.
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, what is the what we didn't even get
<v Speaker 1>into what is your official title? Like, what's your official
<v Speaker 1>career title?
<v Speaker 2>It's whatever whatever I want to call myself.
<v Speaker 1>But you're doing freelance. I mean, you're doing freelance consulting and.
<v Speaker 2>Aquatic I work for a work for I work for
<v Speaker 2>a company, So I'm I'm salaried pretty much. I generally
<v Speaker 2>I'm an aquatic ecologist, but uh, I label myself as
<v Speaker 2>aquatic plants ecologistsogis.
<v Speaker 1>Aquatic ecologists with a focus on plants, on the quantic plants. Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>working in one of the coolest river systems in North America.
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm. We haven't even talked about the restoration part,
<v Speaker 2>which was the video I showed you, But so that's
<v Speaker 2>on the comeal. And in that project, we're actually removing
<v Speaker 2>uh non native aquatic plant called h Groa. Were panting
<v Speaker 2>back native plants. And that's for another endangered that's for
<v Speaker 2>the endanger fish species that lives in the coal Meal.
<v Speaker 2>It also lives in the San Marcus. But that's the
<v Speaker 2>Fountain garter at the Ostoma anticola.
<v Speaker 1>What what h what species? Is it?
<v Speaker 2>Polysperma? And this is they see, yes very highly A
<v Speaker 2>can't square stem flowering at the.
<v Speaker 1>Nudes mint as?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so yep, and so again it was another aquatic
<v Speaker 2>plant that was introduced really early on, and and so
<v Speaker 2>on the Colemel River, which is the sister sister system
<v Speaker 2>to the San Marcus. They're pretty much both edwards aquafer
<v Speaker 2>springs spring systems very similar, although they do have some
<v Speaker 2>some differences. The difference on the Colemeal is that they
<v Speaker 2>never introduced a lot of aquatic plants to that one,
<v Speaker 2>so it only had the Hygrofla as the dominant non
<v Speaker 2>nate of so we we removed that one.
<v Speaker 1>No, it's the same thing. I mean, this is this
<v Speaker 1>is just forming monocultures. Probably it's smothering.
<v Speaker 2>Out competing, Yes, out competes everything. You remove it and
<v Speaker 2>then you plant back. You know a selection of native plants.
<v Speaker 1>Do you know anything about where I mean where is
<v Speaker 1>the native And obviously it's again it's these things are
<v Speaker 1>invasive because there's no checks and bounces, there's nothing keeping
<v Speaker 1>them in check. Whatever kept them in check back in
<v Speaker 1>their home ecosystem isn't here, and nor should it be
<v Speaker 1>here either. It's like it's not safe to introduce these
<v Speaker 1>things as a form of biocontrol. In many cases, it
<v Speaker 1>will it.
<v Speaker 2>Will get eaten by some of the more common aquatic caterpillars.
<v Speaker 2>There's another thing, as even though there were aquatic caterpillars.
<v Speaker 1>I had no idea. These are caterpillars that live.
<v Speaker 2>In the water like water, so they have they have jewels.
<v Speaker 2>The moth will lay eggs uh on a piece of
<v Speaker 2>the plant, or they'll drop eggs in the water, and
<v Speaker 2>they'll attach the plant, and the egg will hatch. Egg
<v Speaker 2>will hatch, and the caterpillar will have gills and it
<v Speaker 2>will eat eat the aquatic plant as the host plant.
<v Speaker 2>It'll stay completely submerged into all that pewbates and then
<v Speaker 2>it'll pupate, turn into the moth, and then the off
<v Speaker 2>will generally climb up along the stem out of the water,
<v Speaker 2>dry dry, so fell off and then it'll fly off.
<v Speaker 1>Jesus, But the caterpillar lives. I mean, if the caterpillar
<v Speaker 1>has gills.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yeah, they have gills, and so that's a whole
<v Speaker 2>other realm of yes, yes, if someone were generalists. So
<v Speaker 2>they'll eat pretty much any aquatic plant, which is the
<v Speaker 2>damage I've been seeing on pairponics is the pirponics genus.
<v Speaker 2>So it's a journalists and then some of them are specialists,
<v Speaker 2>so they have specific hoast plants, just like some of
<v Speaker 2>your trustural uh malves and butterflies. Yeah, so I had
<v Speaker 2>no idea, but yeah, so so that one, that one
<v Speaker 2>will get you know, we'll see damage with highgrofla by
<v Speaker 2>that one. But other than that, it's it's pretty much
<v Speaker 2>grows uncontrolled until we, you know, make the effort to
<v Speaker 2>take it out.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, got that. So like the restoration you're doing, So
<v Speaker 1>you're going out and you're removing this stuff, and what's
<v Speaker 1>the idea, just keep doing it until natives get established?
<v Speaker 1>And kind of.
<v Speaker 2>Well, we're we're growing the natives. So we're growing with
<v Speaker 2>Wigia repons, we're growing Cobamba caroliniana, and we're transplanting the
<v Speaker 2>Sagittaria pettiphila that I talked about earlier. We're we're propagating
<v Speaker 2>those and planting them back into the spots where we removed.
<v Speaker 2>And we chose those species because we know based on
<v Speaker 2>bio monitoring, that the fountain darter likes those species. They
<v Speaker 2>have high diversities of aquatic invertebrates because of their structure,
<v Speaker 2>the plants do, and so because they have high diversity
<v Speaker 2>of aquatic convertebrates, the fountain darter uses those for its
<v Speaker 2>food source.
<v Speaker 1>In the fountain darter, that's a rare fish.
<v Speaker 2>Endangered fish in danger fish?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? God, man, how many? How many endangered fish have
<v Speaker 1>there gotta be in uh in Texas?
<v Speaker 2>Man? I just a lot there are? There are a
<v Speaker 2>lot of endangered have lots of endangered muscles?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the rivers have gotten so fuck. There was a
<v Speaker 1>there's a ton of muscle diversity in eastern North America too, right,
<v Speaker 1>And muscles really got screwed when Europeans came over and
<v Speaker 1>started chopping up the land. And what what do you
<v Speaker 1>know much about that? Is there much you can tell
<v Speaker 1>me about that?
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I'm not a muscle ecologists. There are
<v Speaker 2>much better. So there are actual muscle cologists you could
<v Speaker 2>talk to that could tell you.
<v Speaker 1>Right, Ben, I meant all about it last week. But yeah,
<v Speaker 1>that's short, short, so cool. What is whosetc Americana is?
<v Speaker 1>That's basically an aquatic plant, right?
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Yeah? And so that's another one you will see
<v Speaker 2>so it's waded ranging. You'll see it in rivers lakes
<v Speaker 2>generally it's emerging it but again it has this submersed
<v Speaker 2>growth form. If you go to a fast flowing hill
<v Speaker 2>country river where there's lots of CO two or by carbonate,
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure. I'm not sure if it can used
<v Speaker 2>by carbonate. But you go to a fast flowing rift
<v Speaker 2>full and Atlanto River, you know, Santuno River, it'll it'll
<v Speaker 2>grow completely submersed and it will never emerge. And so
<v Speaker 2>it can have two different, two different growth forms. It
<v Speaker 2>can look different enough to be misidentified. Damn you would
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't really know.
<v Speaker 1>And when it doesn't emerge, like it doesn't emerge to
<v Speaker 1>flower even I mean, right, how.
<v Speaker 2>Does it hope it will stay just rhizomes it just
<v Speaker 2>sexually reproduces.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, and that's I mean again, you've got two
<v Speaker 1>completely different kinds of leaves. You've got submerged leaves and
<v Speaker 1>you've got emergent leaves.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it will do it at the end. Form
<v Speaker 2>tho is really translucent. When I first saw it, my
<v Speaker 2>first observation of that, I thought it was curly leaf
<v Speaker 2>pond read, which is a non native and of course.
<v Speaker 2>Now I look back at that and I laugh because
<v Speaker 2>they don't look anything like each other. But just I
<v Speaker 2>just I was like, what is this is curly leaf? No,
<v Speaker 2>it's not curly leaf. And then I just happened to
<v Speaker 2>see a patch of that growing next to an emergent patch,
<v Speaker 2>and they were kind of connected, and I realized, oh,
<v Speaker 2>these are this is all water willow. And so half
<v Speaker 2>of the patches growing on the edge emerging it and flowering,
<v Speaker 2>and the other half of the patches growing in super
<v Speaker 2>fast water completely submersed and probably never emerged.
<v Speaker 1>What were you about to say? It's translucent?
<v Speaker 2>What leaves? The leaves are really thin and translucent, so
<v Speaker 2>that what what's up with that?
<v Speaker 1>Why? Why is that?
<v Speaker 2>Well it goes back to right. It doesn't need it.
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have really have a cuticle, so it doesn't
<v Speaker 2>need the support or the protection.
<v Speaker 1>Right like a filmy fern, like like high Menophila, they
<v Speaker 1>just grow in really wet environments so they can be
<v Speaker 1>they can have such a thin leaf.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, doesn't have to worry about drying out forever doesn't
<v Speaker 2>probably doesn't have stomata. Yeah summer, so yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, man, I could talk to you for another hour easily.
<v Speaker 2>But I guess, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. There's just
<v Speaker 2>there's so much, uh so much to talk about, which
<v Speaker 2>is why I love it is so much in them,
<v Speaker 2>not even you know, there's more. There's more that we
<v Speaker 2>don't know than we know. So it just boggles your mind,
<v Speaker 2>like so much to learn, so much research to do.
<v Speaker 1>But these are I mean with aquatics, I mean, I
<v Speaker 1>guess things to think about. Are are just you know,
<v Speaker 1>even if you don't understand, you know, if someone doesn't
<v Speaker 1>understand why they're cool, it's it's basically the main thing
<v Speaker 1>to get across. They're performing a huge ecosystem service. They're
<v Speaker 1>cleaning water, they're absorbing, they're living water filters, not just
<v Speaker 1>through their roots but through their leaves, through the fungi
<v Speaker 1>and bacteria and other microbes that they you know, are
<v Speaker 1>they use is use them as a service area to
<v Speaker 1>grow on. I mean, it's it's a huge amount of
<v Speaker 1>biomass in these uh in these water ways. What what
<v Speaker 1>about just to I guess we could just then with this,
<v Speaker 1>what's the differ you talked about bicarbonate versus CO two.
<v Speaker 1>What that's the thing I've picked up in this conversation.
<v Speaker 1>What's going on there? There's two different forms of COEO
<v Speaker 1>of carbon that plants can use. Aquatic plants can use
<v Speaker 1>and you're dealing with the buy car. You're dealing with
<v Speaker 1>both these because you've got this limestone geology. What's the
<v Speaker 1>difference between the bicarbonate and the dissolved CO two? Are
<v Speaker 1>they the same thing? How can some some aquatic plants
<v Speaker 1>can use by carbonate others can't? What does that require?
<v Speaker 2>Good question? So there's a really good book called Aquatic Photosynthesis. Uh,
<v Speaker 2>I've tried. It's very slow reading. But I don't know
<v Speaker 2>the I don't know the physiology and the chemical pathways.
<v Speaker 2>That's that's in a book somewhere or in a paper.
<v Speaker 2>But there they can switch and we know this. And experiments.
<v Speaker 2>You can do a pH drift experiment where you put
<v Speaker 2>pieces of a plant in a solution and that there's
<v Speaker 2>a paper on this you can google and you can
<v Speaker 2>put the plant pieces of this acquire plant in the solution.
<v Speaker 2>You turn on bright lights and you constantly measure pH
<v Speaker 2>and as the plant uses CO two in the solution, Uh,
<v Speaker 2>it'll increase the pH up to a point where it's
<v Speaker 2>used all the CO two, and then if it can
<v Speaker 2>switch over to by carbonate, it will keep increasing the pH.
<v Speaker 2>And so that's how you know if it can use
<v Speaker 2>only CO two or if it can use CO two
<v Speaker 2>and by carbonate and switch over to by carbonate. But
<v Speaker 2>this carbinate is the least use is the least useful
<v Speaker 2>of the two because it requires more energy and probably
<v Speaker 2>more more physiology and chemical processes. But they can do
<v Speaker 2>it and.
<v Speaker 1>Go go ahead. It's called a pH what.
<v Speaker 2>pH drift experiment? So you can look that up and
<v Speaker 2>there's a couple of really good papers on that, and
<v Speaker 2>there's a giant black hole on what plants can do that.
<v Speaker 2>Every occasionally a new paper will come out or they
<v Speaker 2>tested a new species. Hydrilla can use CAM photosynthesis. There's
<v Speaker 2>a really cool paper on that. And so they have
<v Speaker 2>several different options.
<v Speaker 1>Was hydrilla the native one or the invasive one?
<v Speaker 2>No, hydrilla is the invasive one and it can use CAM.
<v Speaker 1>That's crazy. We can use CAM so an adaptation to
<v Speaker 1>desert climate?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, it's it's an adaptation to low CO two, right,
<v Speaker 2>So it can and those environments, which is why it's
<v Speaker 2>probably so invasive, those environments where it's just really stagnant
<v Speaker 2>and all this all the ambient CO two has been
<v Speaker 2>used up in the water. It can it converts over
<v Speaker 2>to CAM and just hangs out and says, well, I'll
<v Speaker 2>just do this process and wait until you know.
<v Speaker 1>It's wild though. Yeah, CAM evolving, crash lacing as metabolism,
<v Speaker 1>photosynthesis evolving not in response to water stress but into COE.
<v Speaker 1>That is a response to CO two stress. Low COEO two.
<v Speaker 1>That's freaking crazy too, Jesus Christ. That is yeah, that's
<v Speaker 1>so cool.
<v Speaker 2>So okay, but it is probably there's probably not the
<v Speaker 2>only plant that can do that. It's just a steadied
<v Speaker 2>one because it's been so invasive. I mean, there's probably
<v Speaker 2>other natives that can do that. We just nobody has
<v Speaker 2>done their research.
<v Speaker 1>But the important thing to know is that you know
<v Speaker 1>there's a that's an adaptation many aquatic plants have, not
<v Speaker 1>the CAM, but the the ability to use by carbonate
<v Speaker 1>once CO two runs out, Yeah, once dissolved CO two
<v Speaker 1>runs out. And you were saying, you know you could
<v Speaker 1>once you start using up CO two, it's uh, that
<v Speaker 1>would be what raising the pH.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah no, no, lowering right, lowering, okay, lowering yeah, one
<v Speaker 2>of the Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it would raise yeah, because more CO two would
<v Speaker 1>acidify the water, which is lowering it. So once you
<v Speaker 1>use up all the CO two, it would be raising
<v Speaker 1>it and then raising it. Oh god, Yeah, there's so
<v Speaker 1>much to think about. It's it's yeah, I mean that's
<v Speaker 1>the main I guess that's the main thing to take
<v Speaker 1>away too, is that CO two is is the limiting
<v Speaker 1>factor and a lot of aquatic environments for for plants
<v Speaker 1>that grow fully submerged. But if you're emergent, you don't
<v Speaker 1>have to worry about that, I suppose.
<v Speaker 2>No, right, right, And that's why I'm not as interested
<v Speaker 2>in the emergent plants per se, because those that never
<v Speaker 2>never have to worry about submersed. I mean, they're they're
<v Speaker 2>just you know, in most ways, they're just trustral plants.
<v Speaker 2>They just need a lot of water. You know. They
<v Speaker 2>have physiology to deal with an oxic sediment like an
<v Speaker 2>oxygenated rososphere, so they can pump oxygen into their root
<v Speaker 2>zone to help with the nutrient uptake and stuff. But
<v Speaker 2>they you know, they can't. They don't really change their
<v Speaker 2>leaf shape, and if they did submerse, like I said
<v Speaker 2>with the marcilia, they just die, like they can't handle
<v Speaker 2>being submersed because they can't switch, and.
<v Speaker 1>They don't have to cope with coe to stress either,
<v Speaker 1>because they could just tap into the atmosphere if you
<v Speaker 1>have emergent.
<v Speaker 2>And they don't. They don't have to worry about water
<v Speaker 2>velocity or getting enough sunlight through the water column. There's
<v Speaker 2>just a lot of things they don't have to worry about.
<v Speaker 2>Whereas the submerged and amphibious plants, you know, those are
<v Speaker 2>truly unique and specialty families.
<v Speaker 1>Can can then like what about plant like to do
<v Speaker 1>can plants like nymphea, like the water lilies, do they
<v Speaker 1>have to be rooted or can they just float? I
<v Speaker 1>mean what like what if the water gets too deep?
<v Speaker 1>I mean, will they still send up a like a
<v Speaker 1>ten foot long stalk?
<v Speaker 2>No? Right, yeah, yeah, some species can new far so
<v Speaker 2>the spader duck I was talking about earlier, it can
<v Speaker 2>just it'll just grow us submersed, like a really thin
<v Speaker 2>summersed leaf and I'll just hang out at the bottom.
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have to grow floating leaves. The the other
<v Speaker 2>nefaya species generally they'll just they'll produce a a already
<v Speaker 2>mature floating leaf, So it won't it won't when it
<v Speaker 2>comes out of the root, the the base hole corn
<v Speaker 2>or tuber. The leaf is already formed, like, it's not
<v Speaker 2>a submers leaf changes, it's already a it's already a
<v Speaker 2>floating leaf structure that it comes up to the surface.
<v Speaker 2>But new Far is the only native water lily. I'm
<v Speaker 2>not sure there's there's other new Far species, not in Texas,
<v Speaker 2>but in the eastern US. I'm sure they all can
<v Speaker 2>do it. That will just grow a submersed sleep form.
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow, So leaves that just don't even aren't meant
<v Speaker 1>to reach the surface.
<v Speaker 2>Just yeah, right, just hang out as far as rooted,
<v Speaker 2>I I mean, I can float them if I grow them,
<v Speaker 2>I'll float them in a tub or something. But I
<v Speaker 2>don't think they can do that for very long. They
<v Speaker 2>need to be rooted because they need nutrients. Because they
<v Speaker 2>don't have a submerse leave. They pretty much have to
<v Speaker 2>get their nutrients from the soil when substrate. Yeah, so
<v Speaker 2>they barely need to be rooted. But then you have
<v Speaker 2>we haven't even talked about cornwort a film.
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, that's that's super Yeah, that is like the iconic.
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, it doesn't even roots, It doesn't even have roots,
<v Speaker 2>never produces roots are films right, Oh sure, yeah, yeah, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>we have several species.
<v Speaker 1>Kind of it can be confused with kabamba, but when
<v Speaker 1>you look up close, they're much different. This has a
<v Speaker 1>whirl of leaves. Serratto film is a whirl of these
<v Speaker 1>filamentous leaves. Cabomba's got actual like you know, palmate leaves
<v Speaker 1>with a petiole. But can both of those, I mean,
<v Speaker 1>can they just root from like branch cuttings like in water.
<v Speaker 1>You know which one, Cobamba and Serato film.
<v Speaker 2>So cobamba, yes, you can take it aprical cutting, and
<v Speaker 2>maybe it'll just root from the nodes these new roots,
<v Speaker 2>like Serrata film will just grow. It never produces roots,
<v Speaker 2>so you can just take you can take pretty much
<v Speaker 2>any piece of it, even even an internodal like section,
<v Speaker 2>no ap aprical tip, and it'll it'll grow a whole
<v Speaker 2>new plant. But it won't. It'll just be steel leaves
<v Speaker 2>and steem. It won't produce. It doesn't produce roots at all.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so Serato film, So this is yeah, I remember this, Yeah,
<v Speaker 1>this is it's it's an angiosperm, but it's just out
<v Speaker 1>there on its own, lonely branch.
<v Speaker 2>It's it's very, very early on. In fact, they don't
<v Speaker 2>think the first flowering plant. I think Montsicia monicia looks
<v Speaker 2>very similar to seratafilm and was completely submersed.
<v Speaker 1>Wow.
<v Speaker 2>So and there's there's a couple of papers that came
<v Speaker 2>out twenty fourteen, twenty sixteen where they found fossil fossilized
<v Speaker 2>plants that look like sratofilm.
<v Speaker 1>So Serrato film is I mean it is. It's like
<v Speaker 1>a living fossil. I know, taxonomous hate it when you
<v Speaker 1>use that phrase, but that's kind of what it is.
<v Speaker 1>It's like a really early branching. It's not Amberella, but
<v Speaker 1>it's still it's it's down there in the family tree.
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, so what about this one? What's up with
<v Speaker 1>this genus.
<v Speaker 2>Sati film? Yeah, I mean it's so we have in Texas,
<v Speaker 2>we have one common one rare common would be demersum.
<v Speaker 2>The rare one would be sort of film, uh macrona.
<v Speaker 2>I believe only one county, only one pond that we
<v Speaker 2>know of, And I mean the demersalm is everywhere. You'll
<v Speaker 2>find it in Rivers Lakes Springs. It's super hardy and
<v Speaker 2>tolerant with lots of conditions. Yeah, but this is.
<v Speaker 1>What I mean, what are the flowers like, I don't
<v Speaker 1>know anything about it. What do the flowers look like?
<v Speaker 1>How does it? Does it spread in some places? What thea?
<v Speaker 2>Can't it can be a nuisance? For sure? Flowers are
<v Speaker 2>in the uh in the axles. I'm not sure if
<v Speaker 2>it's diecious ermos, I can't remember.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, it's almost looks like something you consider an algae,
<v Speaker 1>like it looks like a really weird Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I don't, yes, And the flowers are just tiny, little,
<v Speaker 2>tiny little buds. I mean you wouldn't really even know
<v Speaker 2>it's a flower. I mean I've confused new buds for
<v Speaker 2>the flower before. And then it will produce a giant
<v Speaker 2>freaking fruits and the fruit will have spines. And that's
<v Speaker 2>one way you can tell the species is the orientation
<v Speaker 2>and the number of spines that their fruit has.
<v Speaker 1>But there's only four species of seratophylin right.
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, there's probably probably more than.
<v Speaker 1>That, but but for unaccepted ones, yeah, common accepted, there's
<v Speaker 1>probably numerous ecotypes instead of species, and natural selections done
<v Speaker 1>its thing in different isolated places where this thing occurs.
<v Speaker 1>But is it is it all over the world or
<v Speaker 1>where is it?
<v Speaker 2>Yes? So it's one of the few plants I can
<v Speaker 2>think of that our circumpolar circumpolar distributionretty much every continent
<v Speaker 2>except Antarctica.
<v Speaker 1>Sister group to the uticots. So it's it's, man, that's
<v Speaker 1>kind of a weird. Yeah, it's like this weird, lonely
<v Speaker 1>evolutionary branch of the antio spruing family tree. It's sister
<v Speaker 1>to the entire rest of the uticots, the youdkuts. So
<v Speaker 1>it's it's not like a mono cod. It's a god
<v Speaker 1>it's fucking weird. Yeah, I've you know there, I've got
<v Speaker 1>that cool plant Gateway poster, you know, plant Gateway dot
<v Speaker 1>Com forward poster. And yes, erratiphyling is it's it's like gunnera,
<v Speaker 1>you know, it's just one of those long, like it's long, lonely,
<v Speaker 1>unbranching lines.
<v Speaker 2>That goes yeah and so.
<v Speaker 1>But this is, I mean, this is everywhere. Like you
<v Speaker 1>see this in rivers ponds where does it do? But
<v Speaker 1>it's not maybe not so much in rivers. It needs
<v Speaker 1>more standing water or what I mean.
<v Speaker 2>I've seen it in fast foalling. It'll grow in the
<v Speaker 2>same marcus. Uh. It just wraps around things and uh
<v Speaker 2>it all it can grow and as long as there's
<v Speaker 2>other ructure for it to hold on to, it'll grow
<v Speaker 2>in actually pretty fast plowing water. And like I said,
<v Speaker 2>it can be a nuisense. I know several entities that
<v Speaker 2>try to harvest it and get rid of it. It can, yes, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>I mean it is. It floats, it can shade out
<v Speaker 2>a lot of stuff under underneath it, so so that's
<v Speaker 2>a problem. But it's freaking I mean, fish love it.
<v Speaker 2>It's a great I've used it for frustration for fish
<v Speaker 2>habitat before.
<v Speaker 1>They eat it too.
<v Speaker 2>No, I mean, if it's a herbivorous fish, probably, but
<v Speaker 2>generally they're going to be in it for the cover
<v Speaker 2>because the architecture is dense but still spreading so they
<v Speaker 2>can get up underneath it and swim through it.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're gonna we got to hang out next week.
<v Speaker 1>I gotta ask you about it. All the cool Texas
<v Speaker 1>native fish too. There's so much school I'm gonna talk
<v Speaker 1>to you about. We've done. We've already done two hours
<v Speaker 1>and thirty minutes, so I guess I'll let you go.
<v Speaker 1>But man, thanks a lot. This was fucking great and
<v Speaker 1>really illuminating. And what would you recommend for people that
<v Speaker 1>want to learn about this. I mean, I think the
<v Speaker 1>best thing to do is just start growing some of
<v Speaker 1>this stuff if you can. That's what I like about
<v Speaker 1>your yard, because your yard is in a garden so much.
<v Speaker 1>Your yard is like a lab. It's like to me,
<v Speaker 1>it seems like like a lab where someone's growing these
<v Speaker 1>things so they can learn about them.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's that's exactly. That's pretty much what it is.
<v Speaker 2>I would say for people they really want to get
<v Speaker 2>into it, don't go to the nursery and buy stuff.
<v Speaker 2>Go to the pond mixed door and like, look and
<v Speaker 2>learn about that. And you're gonna find no native stuff
<v Speaker 2>in there too. But yeah, you'll find lots of native stuff,
<v Speaker 2>and you know, put it in a quarium or put
<v Speaker 2>it in a little pond, and if it's legal to
<v Speaker 2>do so. Some states don't allow that, but you know,
<v Speaker 2>learn about what's in your local waterways. Don't worry about
<v Speaker 2>what's growing at the nursery.
<v Speaker 1>You've got to worry about invasive snails or muscles that
<v Speaker 1>you know you can bring in. And then what do
<v Speaker 1>they do. They like will take over the stock.
<v Speaker 2>They'll take over your plants, will take over. Snails are
<v Speaker 2>really really well known hard uh uh vectors for parasites. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>so yeah, I have do you have to be very careful.
<v Speaker 1>What do you do in the case you get a
<v Speaker 1>bad snail infrestation and a tank or something.
<v Speaker 2>So I if I'm going to do a restoration project,
<v Speaker 2>I'll generally collect small quantities of the plant and you
<v Speaker 2>can soak them in potassium promingonate solution that will kill
<v Speaker 2>the eggs. You can also do uh, carbonated water will
<v Speaker 2>suffocate stills in their eggs if you can.
<v Speaker 1>Won't hurt the plant obviously.
<v Speaker 2>No, I won't hurt the plant. And so you do
<v Speaker 2>that and then you just culture it from there, keep
<v Speaker 2>it separated where it's a you can buy at the pool,
<v Speaker 2>the pond, the swimming pool. It's used in swimming pool
<v Speaker 2>pools to it can Yeah, you wouldn't. You wouldn't put
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't put it in your pond. You would put
<v Speaker 2>it in a bucket and then soak the plants, treat
<v Speaker 2>the plants.
<v Speaker 1>In that, and then rinse them off.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, So, I mean it's definitely things you have
<v Speaker 2>to if you're going to do restoration, you definitely need
<v Speaker 2>to be worried about. That's so there is a There
<v Speaker 2>is an instance of a restoration project in Texas buying
<v Speaker 2>plants from Florida and bringing them here and planting them
<v Speaker 2>in a wetland and then those plants happen to have
<v Speaker 2>the Florida bluefin killyfish, and that that fish got out
<v Speaker 2>into the Gualdipe River. And so now when you go
<v Speaker 2>down to the Galdipy Delta, you will find Florida bluefin killyfish.
<v Speaker 2>And they came from a wetland project where they bought
<v Speaker 2>plants from Florida that had Florida bluefin killyfish.
<v Speaker 1>Brutal are they and are they fucking up the ecosystem
<v Speaker 1>there or what are they doing?
<v Speaker 2>I mean no, not that, not that anybody knows. But
<v Speaker 2>it's just another, you know, another reason why we should
<v Speaker 2>be careful about where we buy our plane.
<v Speaker 1>Oops oop, Yeah, it seems like, especially in in with
<v Speaker 1>aquatic plants, it's really easy to move stuff like it's
<v Speaker 1>such a easy.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Snails. Snails and snails and other invasive plants are
<v Speaker 2>probably the two biggest things for sure that we have
<v Speaker 2>to worry about.
<v Speaker 1>The snails thing with the parasites is terrifying. There's some
<v Speaker 1>is that have really what what is that did they
<v Speaker 1>harbor on a meva or something?
<v Speaker 2>Uh, well, some of them are some of them are worms.
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if they're nematid worms or around worms.
<v Speaker 2>But you know, if they go through this life cycle
<v Speaker 2>of bird, you know, bird poops and water snow eats,
<v Speaker 2>bird poop gets infected with the parasite. Person steps on
<v Speaker 2>snail and gets infected with parasite.
<v Speaker 1>They can go through your skin mm hmm.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if you have a cut or something. Yeah, okay,
<v Speaker 2>so you know, just it depends on the parasite.
<v Speaker 1>It's not that domein or el bendasol. What is the
<v Speaker 1>what do you gotta take? You keep that on hand.
<v Speaker 1>You gotta go to the Mexican pharmacy, get the bendisol.
<v Speaker 2>You gotta get the iromectin. Let's use a lot nowadays
<v Speaker 2>for lots of things. But but yeah, I mean it's
<v Speaker 2>scary and San Antonio right now they're dealing with the
<v Speaker 2>apple snell and that being each education and so we're
<v Speaker 2>trying to get native plants established, but at the same
<v Speaker 2>time we have the snell coming in that's beating the plants.
<v Speaker 2>And then yeah, and it probably has parasites that so yeah,
<v Speaker 2>I mean it's it's something we need to worry about.
<v Speaker 1>El bendzol. Yeah, go to the Mexican pharmacy, get the
<v Speaker 1>al bendozol. It's like five bucks. It's probably a ripoff
<v Speaker 1>here in the US because we have a broken healthcare system,
<v Speaker 1>but uh yeah, al bendizol and I've re met them
<v Speaker 1>for the parasites. But Dan, you've got me. This has
<v Speaker 1>been great, man, Thank you so much for your time.
<v Speaker 1>You've got me. You've opened my eyes, Casey you really.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, well I think hopefully it will open a
<v Speaker 2>lot of people's eyes, your listeners that have never even
<v Speaker 2>thought about it.
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, thanks so man, thanks a lot for your time.
<v Speaker 1>And uh yeah, I don't know. I'll we got to
<v Speaker 1>figure out a way to meet up this week. I
<v Speaker 1>just yeah, just hang out with me after we hang
<v Speaker 1>up and uh after I get up, after I end
<v Speaker 1>the podcast, we can figure something out.
<v Speaker 2>So oh sounds good.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, everybody else, have a grace today. Go fuck up.
<v Speaker 2>By