The Rebel of Suan Mokkh: Rebirth, Cancer, & the Four Truths of Dhammic Socialism | Santikaro Q&A

Welcome everyone to Wednesday evening
with the Clear Mountain Monastery over
on Zoom. So uh we are very happy to have
Santi Caro joining us this evening.
Santi Caro, thanks so much for joining
us.
>> You're welcome. Thanks for inviting me.
>> It's definitely our pleasure. Um I'll
just read a quick bio. So Santi caro
upasa studied with ajam buddhadasa
during the last n years of his life
became his primary translator and
continues to share his naturalist
approach to Buddha Dhama. Ordained as a
terabiku in 1985 Santiar spent most of
his monastic life at swanmok in southern
Thailand ajam buddhuridas monastery.
During this time he led don kiam a small
monastic community for foreigners and
was active among socially engaged
Buddhists in Asia. He returned to the US
in 2000 and left monastic life in 2004
to found papala retreat then liberation
park. He continues to teach nationally
and internationally and to translate the
work of his teacher. He teaches Buddhism
and meditation with an emphasis on the
early poly sources with a special
fondness for mindfulness of breathing.
One question Santi Cararo is the um your
kind of path aligning with Ajin Buddha
Das's and your becoming a disciple of
his um and working or living with him
for so long as well and serving as his
translator. I'm I'm curious just if you
would be able to you know to prepare for
that kind of convergence in the
narrative. Um,
what was Ajin Buddha Dasa's role in Thai
Buddhism? Like for those who haven't
heard about him, how would you
characterize what part he played? Um,
cuz he was quite a unique character.
>> Well, I've tried to write about this.
Let's see what I can remember. Um first
of all he
was the major figure for a few decades
to publicly question
the um power of the bassudi ma
and commentaries.
Most of terra Buddhism I would say has
adhered more to the vudi maga than the
sutas. Of course there's a lot of
variety. Achan Buddha Dasa was the first
monk of impeccable conduct which was
important. At one point later,
a supreme patriarch who wasn't the most
ethically pure of those two hold that
position
um tried to have Ajan Buddha Dasa
arrested
and he hadn't done anything wrong
except irritate some senior monks by
translating from the Pali
passages mostly in the Angutan Niga of
how monks should not behave.
Unfortunately,
there were monks in big wealthy Bangkok
monasteries
behaving like that.
And that did not ingratuate
Ajan Buddha to them. On the other hand,
when he started out with suen mo
intentionally
flunking his poly studies, he passed the
third level, which is the first exam
with the highest scores. The next year
he flunked out intentionally
cuz the demand was you par it back not
dharma understanding
but wrote memorization from the poly
schools which he did not go to. He had a
private tutor who was the friend of one
of his uncles who'd been a monk in
Bangkok for a long time. So he left and
started swimming back on the outskirts
of this the small town where he grew up.
and he and his brother published a
journal that's still going
and this made him known to
more progressive Buddhist thinkers
and
the there was a someday
in the Thai monastic hierarchy
There's a san
ruler of the sanga or king of the sanga
and then there are day which is a camare
word meaning prince
one of them was the acting saraja
and he took a liking to aan buddhadasa
And this is not well known. A number of
things that Ajan Buddha Dasa critiqued
in the official Thai Buddhism of that
time. This was
say 32
into the World War II years.
Some of those things he discussed with
this someday and
this I wish I could remember his proper
title but he protected Ajan Buddha as
well.
One reason uh John Buddha Dasa could
raise critical questions
was
because he had support in high levels of
the SA and in the government civil
service. the minister of justice for a
long long time was a close student of
his and there were others.
Yeah, I I appreciate that back that
backstory. Um, one of the things I was
happy to learn as we were studying up
for this this interview was um, you
translate Ajam Buddha actually talking
about the Vudi Maga and saying that 95%
of it is useful but 5% should be thrown
away and I found that helpful because I
think a lot of westerners do see a lot
of have a lot of kinship or a lot of
immediate affinity with Ajam Buddha Dasa
because he had this uh you know
willingness to go against what is
perceived dogma. Um but he also had the
um yeah the wisdom to see where other
wisdom lies. You know a lot of
westerners when they read Buddha or the
vicini maga path of purification they'll
just throw out all of the commentaries.
So I was happy to see that Buddha uh
actually saw that 95% of it or so was
was useful. I I'm curious just um one
way that people might know Buddha Dasa
is through the book that I mentioned
mindfulness with breathing which you
translated and I'm curious if you could
just uh elaborate
um Ajam Buddha's way of teaching
mindfulness of breathing what ways uh
were unique to him.
Oh, unique. It's a little hard for me to
say because I'm not as well informed in
other styles.
But first of all, he
stressed the suta. Often mindfulness of
breathing is just focusing on the nose
or the puto um mantra while breathing in
and out which that stuff's fine but
that's not actually the Buddha's
teaching. In the sutas, anopacity is
presented as having 16.
And this schema appears numerous times.
And so although it probably went through
editing as the sutas were orally
transmitted and written down, there's
enough consistency
also with the Chinese version
differences but not major.
So that was important. Um, Shambala
Publications has res recently been
publishing books about what some
scholars call the ancient meditation
that was common in Southeast Asia 3 four
centuries ago and some of that's
more reminiscent of Tibetan practice.
Come on Boron
about like Kate Crosby esoteric
terravada. Yeah.
>> Yep. Yep. And some other writers.
Interesting stuff but not always well
based in the sutas I think from what
I've seen not totally somewhere else.
Ajan Buddha in many ways not just an
upana sati but dependent core rising the
fact that sunata is in the sutas
when aan buddhadasa in the 50s
spoke more and more about sunata he was
criticized by conservative monks for
teaching maha Ayana,
which is embarrassing.
These were senior monks who didn't even
know the sutras.
So I'm Anyway, back to Anapana.
In an upanana,
he actually drew on the visudi maga
quite a bit using the schema of nimita,
the signs, the visualized or imagined
signs
focusing on the nose
and the understanding
of Janna
portrayed. in the Voodooi Maga. He
himself, I believe, had rather easy
access to Janna. He had surgery without
anesthesiology,
a ruptured appendix,
and he lived with the pain for 24 hours.
They flew in to Bangkok.
Emergency operation.
No painkillers.
Um,
>> was that by choice?
>> I think so.
Some of these things I discussed with
him, but 30, 40 years ago, my memory
I've had chemo twice. Sometimes my
memory's a bit fuzzy.
But also, and this wasn't just
mindfulness with breathing, he felt this
is the Buddhist teaching.
All sincere Buddhist should be exposed
to it. Whether they want to study and
practice, that's their choice.
But for a long time, the monastic um
system,
especially the hierarchy, had acted as
gatekeepers,
deciding what lay people should and
shouldn't be taught on a top that's not
appropriate for lay people. lay people
need dana in sila and maybe a little
shaman meditation.
Ajan Buddha Dasa
didn't agree with that and felt to be a
servant of the Buddha which was the name
he took meant doing what he could to
familiarize people with the Buddha's
actual teaching. I um saw I I want
there's more questions I want to ask
about Buddha Dasa, but I also really
want to honor the just the motion you
made which I know is relevant for many
people on this call towards your own
movement through through chemo and
cancer. Um uh you know this conversation
for me perches between um something I'm
fascinated in which is the life of
Buddha Dasa and your teachings as well.
But also I want this to be you know at
the same time touching on these very
practical elements. And so to take a
brief moment and just if I can ask um
what dharmic what what would you call
the the dharma of cancer? Like how have
what have you kind of learned from it
and what how has the dharma helped you
navigate? What words would you offer to
someone on this call dealing with cancer
or who a loved one who's dealing with
some deep sickness?
Um, these are things I prefer to talk
for an hour about,
but I'll try a few highlights.
The first goround with lymphoma,
aggressive lymphoma was 15 years
and I learned gratitude. I have a
highly critical personality.
I've had my social critiques including
of the medical system.
Um, and it kept me alive.
When treatment began, the tumor was the
size of a rugby ball, not a football
big. And it treatment messed me up
pretty bad. But the chemo killed the
tumor really fast and then the whole
business was recovering from the chemo.
Anyway, I remember walking the hallways
at the Mayo Clinic with my pole of chemo
bags.
I also had a catheter hanging from it.
One of the chemo drugs was a steroid.
So, during the four or five days of
round the clock chemo, I didn't sleep
much. I did lots of walking up and down
the hallways. Lymphoma patients to the
left, leukemia patients to the right,
many of them from rural Midwest. Turns
out there's a high incidence of lymphoma
among farmers.
There's a suspected link with
pesticides.
Anyway, I saw these people in hallways
and nobody told me survival rates, but
it was probably under a third, maybe
less.
And so I alternated between
meta karuna towards my fellow inmates
and the staff. It's not easy working
on a cancer ward and people coding and
those things and just the noise and the
chemicals.
Chemo drugs
are originally derived from World War I
chemical weapons. It's nasty stuff,
but it kept me alive. I met so many
great nurses, uh, tech people, the blood
techs, the x-rays. I had so many x-rays,
PET scans,
this and that, and a lot of good docs
and so,
plus family, friends,
support. I got a ton of support from
Thailand, Europe, elsewhere, and here in
the States. So, gratitude was a huge
lesson.
And I want to put a plug in for your
book on the well-being
cascade.
I think gratitude's a great way to
generate pogo. That's a wonderful book.
I keep going back to it and the
teaching. So, gratitude was huge. I also
kept using reflections on emptiness.
When once hooked up with oxygen
monitors,
I had a colostomy bag coming out of my
abdomen. I'll skip the details. The
various tubes going in and out kept
alive by the medical industrial
complex. Insurance from my wife's
hospice agency where she worked at the
time. Without the insurance, nobody
would have paid for this and probably
would have died long ago. Anyway, um,
fascinating reflections on emptiness.
Where does where do I begin and other
and when there are these chemo bags
coming in
going to the landfill with all the other
stuff
coming from factories shipping so that's
also what Tiknadhan calls intervene so
these were important reflections s every
day. Meditation
not so good. My levels of fatigue, it
was hard to sit up. Two years ago, I was
in much better shape. So much more able
to meditate, walk a lot, practice cho
and so on.
I'm reluctant to give specific advice
for others.
I've been asked too many times.
I feel it depends on each individual.
When one is really sick, the mind may
not be clear, especially with the drugs,
the fatigue levels.
It's really important to talk with
someone to find out what their
background is and what they're able to
engage with.
Car, thank you so much for sharing such
an intimate part of your life. Um, I'm
curious. Um, are you still there?
There's a an icon instead of
>> It's a good icon.
>> That's nice.
>> All right. Still there. Great.
>> Um, yeah. No, I'm curious. It um makes
me think about in 1997 you edited a book
called Entering the Realm of Reality.
You edit it and you wrote an article for
that which is called the four noble
truths of domic socialism where you kind
of introduce this idea of social dooka
and the causes of social dooka, the
sessation of social dooka and the path
leading to the sessation social dooka
which is fascinating and we've already
you've already touched on it a bit. your
um yeah since even before you ordained
your consideration of problems in the
world you're joining Peace Corps um just
your mistrust of the medical industrial
complex all of these other larger
systemic problems and what what's kind
of fascinating one I would like you to
if you were willing to just lay out what
are those four what is uh domic
socialism what are the four noble truths
of domic socialism and how does that
interact with uh the traditional
fornable truths of just personal
suffering especially when you're
suffering yourself going through the
dooka of having cancer did one cancel
out the other did you start paying more
attention to the more traditional
fornoble truths or was the social for
noble truths there as well
>> back when That was first a talk and then
expanded into an article.
Parts of it grew out of my involvement
with the international network of
engaged Buddhists
in which Sulaki Veraka was a major
figure.
He and others
were talking about greed as a social
force, anger and hatred as social
forcees,
delusion as social forces,
and systems created like the military
despite the propaganda is to a large
extent an expression of hatred. We see
that blatantly
nowadays
often serving greed and delusions of
grander and world conquest and whatever
crazy stuff's going on in some people.
So there was this idea of structural
suffering,
the hardship, the pain that people
experience
not always because of their personal
actions.
So balancing a notion of karma which is
traditionally emphasizing
individuals which was appropriate in
agrarian v village cultures.
But so much of what we deal with is
coming out of social systems and
structures
which
are have a heavy doses of greed, hatred,
delusion.
So the perspective on duca and the
origins of duca
were just taking straightforward dharma
and saying hey it plays out collectively
socially.
Um,
nationalism
often becomes toxic because it becomes
collective egoism. Or we see certain
movements
where people work themselves up together
into delusions, resentment, rage. And if
there's truth to that
then the perspective may be the path is
not just individual. I should also
comment
that this sounds differently in Asia
than in the modern west especially
America. Our culture has been so
indoctrinated to individualism,
especially since the years of Ronald
Reagan and Bill Clinton. It's
bipartisan. It's not just one party. But
in Asia
there was still memory and experience of
family
community and more collective
understanding.
So this was being called socially
engaged Buddhism. Picknad Han and his
friends back in the 60s
coined the term engage Buddhism,
but then it got watered down. So we
stressed it means socially engaged,
not just engaging with your meditation
practice or whatever.
Ajan Buddha Dasa had coined the term
Dharmic socialism.
Unu in Burma had spoke of Buddhist
socialism.
This was going on back then when
Southeast Asia was caught between the
west and that is the capitalist west and
the Soviet block back when Soviet or
USSR and China were close allies.
And so one of the approaches for example
in Ajan Buddha Dasa was to propose and
this was a shocker. He said if you
actually read the teachings Buddhism is
a lot more socialist than capitalist.
And he was not shy about saying
capitalism is basically
institutionalized greed and selfishness
with big militaries
to get what they want and education
systems.
He called them stumptailed dog
education.
This was a theme of his for years. a dog
without a tail. So, it's incomplete.
It only teaches basic knowledge and
job skills without actually developing
character, which is the ancient Roman
idea of education
or back in the Christian middle ages. So
he proposed not to confuse the socialism
that Buddhism is close to with
the materialist socialism of Lenin Marx
and Mao. By the way, he read marks until
it was dangerous to have those books
and a student of his took them away back
in the 60s. I have friends who they
burned their herbal medicine manuals
because
herbal medicine was being characterized
as communist.
And like the word terrorist nowadays,
the poor woman in Minneapolis
who was shot, they immediately label her
a terrorist. that was happening in
Thailand by the way with CIA backing in
the 60s. So Ajin Buddha Dasa alone of
prominent monks they're well not quite
alone but most vocally proposed
Buddhism is a socialism based in dharma
a middle way between these two
materialisms
capitalism
and um
Russian or US Soviet style communism.
So that's where the socialism came
through. And as I was thinking about
this, how how can we apply the noble
eight-fold path to weakening dismantling
the systems of greed, of anger,
confusion, pride,
and such fear. The insurance industry is
institutionalized fear. We don't take
care of people.
We we make money from it by by
encouraging fear. So some kind of path
that can work together with a personal
version of path. And so I thought about
it. There would be things like right
leadership.
How does mindfulness function in groups,
communities,
um right effort or right industry?
I've got the list here. It's 12 uh the
noble 12fold social path. You have right
religion, right education, right
leadership, right organization or
government, right communication, right
culture, right sexuality or family,
right economics, right ecology, right
play, right monitoring and right sa or
solidarity. A really interesting list.
Yeah.
And
whatever I put together in that came
about through all kind sharing of
conferences of the international network
of engaged Buddhists.
We had students from the Burmese border.
That mess is still going.
We had Buddhists from the Chidagong Hill
tracks,
people from Japan, Malaysia, Indonesia,
Laos, Cambodians from the refugee camps.
Plus, I was also involved in the Asian
Cultural Forum on development, which was
interreligious
and so similar conversations with
Muslims,
Hindus, Christians,
and indigenous peoples such as the Mari.
So I was more putting together
using my
appreciation
for the the core teaching of the four
noble truths
and how can we use that to understand
what engaged Buddhists were discussing
for working for societies. ities that
are compassionate,
um, just and nonviolent.
in terms of kind of
articulating this 12-fold kind of path
um for social well-being and harmony. Um
I find that a lot of what people seem to
still really
hunger for is a sense of nourishment and
joy in their in their just daily life to
offset the kind of alarm they feel at
seeing external conditions falling
apart. um as they do in samsara.
And I I'm curious what kind of advice
would you have for people in terms of
bringing forth in their daily life uh
wholesome bright qualities to
counterbalance the the kind of negative
uh impressions that they do get when
they begin to step into the world in an
engaged way or look at a scene they see
is really quite problematic. Um, how do
you see like what what paths to pomoia
have been sustaining for you in the
midst of cancer and everything else?
I'll I'll still say
um gratitude for me. I'm fortunate to
live on a beautiful property, a small
valley with great beauty.
paying attention to the trees, the deer.
Plus, we have some horses and our baby
horse is so cute,
too.
We have cats as well.
There are plenty of ways to
access beauty.
When I was a more rigid monk, I was
prone to rigidity way before I became a
monk. So, it's not the monkhood's fault,
but I
was concerned that appreciation for
natural beauty
was somehow clinging to sense pleasures.
But then I started to realize nowhere in
the sutas
is that ever censored.
And in the terra and teddy ga
there are lines about natural beauty
nurturing dharma. So that's a plug for
wholesome beauty, wholesome fun
on a note sent um a twofold question.
One is would you categorize that at all
under the heading of muda? And and the
second and this relates to one in the
chat is someone asked did you feel the
reflections on emptiness helped the
emergence of gratitude for you? So yeah,
wondering if that natural beauty falls
for you adjacent to Muda at all. And in
terms of bringing forth gratitude, was
the reflections of emptiness a doorway
at all?
>> Mhm.
Um
yeah, for some reason I don't think of
mudas so much, so it hadn't occurred to
me. I'll think about it. Um,
I'm pretty sure the
emptiness reflections in gratitude were
mutually supportive.
I can't say which came first, but
practice is like that.
cultivating a number of things as able
and if they're wholesome they
it's mutually supportive because deep
down it's not I who practices it's
wholesome qualities
that practice mindfulness
honesty sincerity
and so forth.
>> So, just to go back a little bit to that
uh list of four noble um yeah for noble
social truths or four truths of domic
socialism. Um
I I find it very interesting and I find
your uh elaboration of it that the
pattern of uh craving on an individual
level leads to suffering just as the
pattern of craving and anger and
delusion on a societal level lead to
societal craving. And um this ties into
a question uh when I first uh saw the
elaboration. I was a little bit worried
like I think there is a way that people
can take social dooka as to be the cause
of my dooka. So like someone could say
the cause of my dooka is social
oppression. The cause of Maiduka is uh
societal de uh discrimination
and there's absolutely
uh truth to that and it seems like on
the level of personal um the problem
with that view is that it can kind of
reinforce anger
>> and the question in the chat was how
does one engage with socially engaged
Buddhism while avoiding anger? Um, yeah.
How do you avoid uh positing
my dooka onto other people and bigger
societal forces
to to for me, you learn to not separate
the two. I've heard it so many times and
it's an old trope in Buddhism. There's
the world. There's the monastery.
And for certain reasons, it's convenient
to make the distinction. But then these
become rigid. the monasteries.
Every monastery I've been in has plenty
of worldly stuff
and
transcendence
or freedom can happen anywhere. So, it's
important not to get locked in these
dichotoies.
There was a point where I realized
how often we think of suffering as my
suffering. But I started leading 10day
retreats my first the end of not even
the end of my first year as a be. So, I
had a lot of experience figuring out how
to lead retreats when my own practice
was still up and down. It still is, but
I don't worry about it anymore.
Um, the assumption is suffering means my
suffering.
What happens when we shift the interest
from my suffering to just suffering? The
first noble truth does not say I have
suffering. It says there is dooka. And
is suffering even the best translation
of dooka? Aan Buddha didn't think so.
But that's another day conversation.
But it's more suffering when it's my
suffering. So, and then as soon as
there's the shift to suffering,
as life keeps changing
our to hour,
we meet people,
have experiences, do things. The first
noble truth is about whatever suffering
happens. Too often we get into our
abstract ideas about it.
The first noble truth just pointing to
suffering keeps happening
and it's not necessary to
add the labels. My suffering, your
suffering, their suffering,
their suffering becomes pity, the near
enemy of compassion. So to just address
suffering helps us not take it so
personally and have healthier compassion
from suffering
in others. And I should say that
especially the last couple years coming
to terms
with what's gone on in Gaza
and our governments fully
supporting
that. I still think that
we cannot end other people's suffering.
I think engaged Buddhas need to be clear
about that. Ultimately to help others
with their suffering,
we need to deal with our own without
making um big separations
between the two.
But I don't actually believe that
the world or samsara
is um I don't see it happening in the
near future
that it will be without suffering. So,
how do we live with all the suffering
going on and attend to it wherever we
can? Santi car that's such a it's such a
compassionate um way of looking at
things and I don't know why I've never
thought of the lack of a I mean I guess
the lack of a pronoun owner in the four
noble truths makes intuitive sense but
I've never singled it out in that way.
Um and it echoes so well in the satipana
suta. Um you know the Buddha saying one
pays attention you know internally
externally and both and then coming to
this place of kind of clarity.
Um
we might want to move soon to a more
kind of intimate zoom format. Um but
just one question I had before ending
from the audience which I feel like is
kind of a great little thing that I
didn't want to leave. um is what have
the horses taught you?
>> Um this year be careful. Um
earlier in the year I was um different
horse issues because some over eat and
we times of deer we the pasture is a
problem. We have lots of apple trees and
if horses gorge on apples they develop
hook problems called foundering which is
very dangerous. So we were moving things
around. I was trying to move our two
gelings male partly male horses. They'd
still got enough male to be more
aggressive than the mayors.
and one of them spooked. He's a real
sweetheart of a horse, but he's a bit
excitable. He spooked and bolted. And
then the older horse, who's kind of his
uncle, not biologically, they're not
related, got excited by the other horse
and he reared up and kicked. and I was
right by him. So, he kicked my right arm
for fortunately not something. Anyway,
I'm still working on massage to uh fix
that arm. And so now the horses are
reminding me they're sweet. They're
incredibly sensitive
and lovable.
So that comes easy. Yet they're powerful
and they they frighten easily. They're
they're prey animals. They're not
predators like humans.
Yes. Santi, maybe just one last question
in this recorded session just on the
theme of animals and beings living in
fear. Um coming to Ssara and uh thinking
about one of the other ways that Lumpur
Buddha Dasa is well known amongst
Westerners in addition to his social
engagement and teachings on social
engagement is that some western
>> western Buddhists or non Buddhists will
know Buddhadasa as a protocularist.
they will have maybe heard partial
translations of him uh and will come
away that Ajam Buddha rejected uh that
there was any life before this life and
any life after this life. Um that there
is no ontological truth to ssara of
beings being born as a horse one life
and there's a human and there's a ghost
and there's a hell being and there's a
an angel or whatever it is. Um Buddha
rejected that and I did a deep you know
being able to speak and listen
understand Thai. It seems much more
nuanced than that. listen to a talk
called Chhatney, Chhatna, this life and
next life. And it seems that um he would
point out that people that are putting
too much emphasis on a belief in a you
know really an unprovable belief in a
next life. Uh he would call them kongo.
They're stupid. They're foolish to
believe that. Um but it was more of a
device. It was a pedag uh pedagogical.
Yeah. is like a teaching tool versus a
statement about truth and that he didn't
come down one way or the other saying
that actually there is no next life or a
past life and I'm curious if that was
your experience and that he might even
call someone who said emphasized and
said that it's absolutely true that
there's no next life that that person is
also kongo that's also a foolish belief
um yeah what is your take on Buddha and
belief in the ontological existence of
Ssara,
>> right? So affirming the traditional
ideas,
beliefs about rebirth, re reincarnation,
transmigration,
etc. He didn't have much energy for
affirming that nor did he need to
because it was so wellestablished
and in the vast majority of Thai
monasteries they keep promoting it. So
he didn't feel he had to reinforce what
others were already doing.
He did feel that it was um oh by the
word wait the use of the word no in
southern Thai is not as rude as it is in
the rest of the country.
For a long time I translated it as
stupid, but it's too harsh I think for
American
ears. I think I heard this from Ajan
Chayasaro
that foolish is better. So in recent
translations
I go that way. But it's part of southern
culture and part of his personality to
be bl and strong to make
an impact. And he felt it was infor
unfortunate that so many Thai Buddhists
were more interested in the future live
stuff than their dayto-day practice
which is to get things backwards.
So he was trying to challenge that.
There were periods where
I was sick and tired of the rebirth
stuff. I had studied Christianity and
some Islam in college.
I knew other religions had their
versions.
The idea that some Buddhists have that
they've got this special teaching, it's
all over the world in different forms.
Anyway,
not so much anymore, but there were
times I get annoyed.
One day
I went to see a Buddha.
5:00 p.m. was my time to go ask
questions if he was healthy and free.
Sometimes someone be would be talking
with him, so I would just sit to the
side. He knew I was there and listen.
One time a professor from one of the big
Bangkok universities, I think one of the
main two,
had all kinds of sincere questions about
rebirth and he very kindly tried to
explain it to her and she was happy. She
left. I went up to him, "What was that?"
and he just smiled. I got a number I I
was given other lessons like that where
he would just wink at me or laugh
chuckle. He didn't laugh out loudly, but
he would chuckle. Basically,
kindness and compassion in the moment
are more important than views.
>> Sentar, I feel like you've modeled that
for us today. Just um we've asked you
questions from pretty much every angle
from horses to socially engaged Buddhism
and then
>> andar
>> Buddha Buddhas samsar as well rebirth
and
>> well not sapuris
we missed the one. Should we uh should
we give you that one before we we uh we
wrap up? Sante Caro, you said you'd like
to talk about it and it's a fascinating
term.
>> Yeah. Um I feel that Buddhists
have these role models that are pretty
idealistic for most of us. Even the
monks and nuns, Buddhas, Ara,
maybe stream mentors,
but that usually gets framed by these
teachings that make it kind of
mechanistic and you you get to a stage
which I think has problems
or at least drawbacks. I forget what
joged my memory but I thought of
sapurisa in Thai sata buru and so I
started looking it up. There are
important sutas where in the graduated
training
the Buddha speaks of
someone who
shows respect for the noble ones.
Listens to the dharma of the noble ones.
The aras
has respect for sapurisa
listens to the dharma of the sapuriza.
So I always kind of thought Saparisa was
roughly equivalent to Arya, but I
searched around and it's mixed in the
sutas.
There are sutas
where the con text is mainly a group of
monks which of course many of the sutas
are but others sapa
implies lay people as well.
And so I started thinking, oh, and then
I came up I venerable Taniso translates
it as persons of charact integrity
which I quite like. It literally means
two true persons
but persons of integrity,
character,
good, decent, solid people. And I looked
around at what's going on in this
country and thought this is what I need.
And there's a suta. I think it's MN 113
where the Buddha asked the monks I'll
paraphr
I'll summarize can a person
of no integrity of poor character tell
who has integrity and who doesn't and
they said no the Buddha agreed you have
to be a person of integrity decent Y
honesty
and character
to know who has integrity and who
doesn't. Which makes sense when our
president speaks about people at a um
racist anti-semitic rally of their good
people too. That's not a Buddhist
understanding of what it means to be a
good person. So I thought that was
fascinating.
We're This is one of my perspectives on
the current situation as a country.
We're in this mess
because there aren't enough people of
integrity
and good character
running things,
companies,
universities,
government,
there are some, maybe many. And one
reason people of little or no integrity
have accumulated so much power is
because too many of us are confused
about what what what
is good character? What makes a good
person?
Being filthy rich, running an AI
company, is that what makes us good
people? It seems many people think so.
So I'm advocating
that in Buddhism we really need to
emphasize
not at the expense of four noble truths
on a top noble eight-fold path but you
can't follow the noble eight-fold path
without being a person of integrity.
It includes the sila teachings, the ma
ma, it's not ma by the way, ma and
karuna teachings, right? Speech, etc.,
etc. So I'm asking the venerables and
everyone else to really
promote understanding of what it is to
be people of integrity.
And I think this is what our sas
um this is an important task for our sas
not just meditation
or learning the sutas. Two things I
value a lot but it takes people of
integrity
to develop a mature meditation practice.
I so appreciate you singling out that
term. Um you're right. The other terms,
the different levels of enlightened
beings and um you know arans are these
almost mythological
uh figures can seem really far out of
reach but the Buddhist that term
saparisa true person um person of
integrity. The Buddha just speaks about
it in such detail like a saparisa, you
know, speaks uh in praise of themsself
only a little bit whereas they kind of
will praise another's good qualities.
They give in a way that's, you know,
respectful and uh what's valuable and
with their own hand. I mean, there's so
many ways that the Buddha frames that
term and it's so much like it's so
accessible. Um, thank you for
emphasizing it. I haven't heard it
spoken about almost ever. And I was a
little when you said that was one of the
terms you'd like to talk about in this
interview. I I' um I've just never heard
anyone else single it out like that. And
I think you're right. It's such an
accessible and meaningful words. So,
thank you Santi Caro for for that and
for this whole conversation.
And um I think we honestly we owe you
for bringing us Buddha's teachings um
and also your own. It's been a real
pleasure to dive into those and to hear
more of your conversation. We hope you
join us again and may maybe next time
you're on the West Coast, you can come
visit us at Clear Mountain. I know you
were just at Cloud Mountain last week,
so we're another mountain and we're
nearby,
>> not too far away.
>> Yeah. So,
>> I hope so. It'd be nice to visit