Invention of the Stethoscope

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production of I Heart Radio. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Wilson. One of the most basic tools of the medical profession is a stethoscope. Yep, nursing also, yeah, well the medical profession would include nurses. I feel like we've had people argue with us about that. I mean, it's all medicine. I'm not calling anybody a doctor. If you have been to a doctor or a nurse at any point in your life, and I hope you do get the health care you need, you have probably had some experience with a stethoscope, and I wanted to peek at how they developed, just as a random Hey where'd that come from? And then I accidentally landed on another French medicine episode. I swear that was not my goal. There are just so many there are. There was like this cluster of time where France was doing a lot of interesting things in in medicine. And that's because to talk about the stethoscope, we have to talk first about its inventor, reneet Field. He has sent lank and then we're going to discuss how his original design which didn't look like what we think of when we think of a stethoscope, now changed in the hands of physicians who wanted to improve on that original. Yeah, when we say change, when I when I was looking for a picture to go with this on our social media, there are pictures of some of his actual stethoscopes. They are not recognizable as a stethoscope unless you are maybe a medical historian that knows what it looked like at that point. Yeah, there are some in museums, uh. And there have even been some cute staged photos throughout the years of people using them to show how they worked. But they, yeah, they don't look like what you would walk into a doctor's office and see today. So Lani was born on February seventeen eighty one in Campaire, on the far way side of France in Brittany. His father, Teo fiel Marie Link, was a civil servant and this family wasn't especially comfortable. Part of that was because Teo field Marie was pretty careless with the finances. Renee's mother, Michelle Felicete Gudstone, died of tuberculosis when Renee was five, and he, along with his brother, went to live with the Abbe Lanek, who was his granduncle. He never was described as particularly hardy. As a child, he had a lot of fevers. He was described as physically weak, and it's believed that he had asthma in his early years. Lannik was an artistic child. He wrote poetry and he learned to play the flute. He would actually play the flute throughout his life, and some people draw a line between that in his original invention. You'll see why when we talk about what it looked like. Uh, he may have actually gone into a less scientific field than medicine, given his proclivity towards the arts. Had he not moved to Not at the twelve to live with another uncle. This one was Dr Guillaume Flancis Lank and in his new home it seems that Renee really flourished academically. He had already studied Latin and Greek with his other uncle, and in his new home he added English and German to the list of languages that he spoke. Uncle Guillaume was dean of the Faculty de Medicin at the University of Nantes, and soon Renee was assisting him at the Hotel Dieu, treating wounded from conflicts between revolutionaries and counter revolutionaries in the area. At fourteen, Renee Laonik was assisting his uncle and he was learning to dress wounds and look after patients, and just four years later, in sevente he was appointed to a post as third class surgeon at the known military hospital before transferring to the Hospice de la Frater. But that second post was also short because in eighteen hundred Lantik moved to Paris to study the section with expert anonomist Guillaume de p at Ecul Practique. Lantic also studied with other luminaries of French medicine at the time, as medical knowledge expanded rapidly. While still a medical student working hard enough to gain top honors, he also started publishing papers on a variety of medical topics that started in eighteen o two. Before completing his medical degree. He had the distinction of being the first person in medicine to lecture on melanoma, which he did in eighteen o four. Also in eighteen o four, he wrote his thesis propos depocrat Relatives a Lamedic and Platique that's Proposals on the Doctrine of Hippocrates relative to practical medicine. So he was talking about all of the work of Hippocrates and how it applied to medicine in his contemporary time. And he graduated from medical school as a result of completing that, and he was invited to join the faculty of the Society of the School of Medicine in Paris. His melanoma lecture that he had given while still a student was published in eighteen o six. At this point it really seemed like his career was on the rise. He already built a reputation through his writing. He had made the discovery that tubercal lesions, which are the nodules that form in the tissues of patients with tuberculosis, he discovered that those lesions could form anywhere in the body, not just in the lungs. Previously to this work, that was what people thought that it was only in the lungs. This actually tied to his work on melanoma because he actually had discovered the distinction between lesions from melanoma and lesions from consumption. Because he had studied with some of the greatest medical experts of the time and had written extensively about his studies and tuberculosis as well as peritonitis and a minorrhea. He was recognized for a high level of expertise in the field, and that was in spite of his young age. His life was soon to have some difficulties though. In a short span of time, Lenk had a falling out with his mentor Deo and his goal like his mother, died from tuberculosis. The issue with Dup was rooted in his melanoma paper. His mentor had also worked on similar research and felt that he had not been properly credited in laon X work. That was particularly insulting too, because his student was credited with having discovered melanoma with no mention of de Potan's work at all. The two men actually thought about this for several years, and the stress of this and the loss of his uncle caused laon X medical issues to flare up to the point where he had to take a break from his work and take a leave of absence, and during that time he visited Brittany where he was born, to relax and recover. When he felt better, renee Leonek returned to Paris to try to pick up where he had left off his private practice of medicine. Went pretty well. He had lots of patience, and he became part owner and editor of Journal de Medicine, which was not surprising considering how much medical writing had been part of his career. What he was hoping was that he would also get a job in a leadership position on a Parisian hospital staff. That didn't happen, though. In eighteen o eight he founded attny Medical that's Medical Athenaeum, which was also eventually absorbed in the academic society of Paris. This was a time when Lanek, who had always been a devout Roman Catholic, really recommitted to his religion, and that led to his appointment as the personal physician of Cardinal Joseph Fish. That religious devotion was the reason he found his aspirations at a hospital job a little bit out of reach, because while France was very Catholic, the academic community actually found Lanek too conservative, and they thought he was a bit out of step with his contemporaries, even though he was making a lot of significant discoveries. During the War of eighteen twelve, while still working for Cardinal Fish, Lane headed up the care of wounded soldiers in Paris's salth Petriere Hospital. All the hospital's wounded soldiers were given beds in words that Lanek led, and two years later his position with the Cardinal ended was the French ambassador to the Vatican and more importantly, Napoleon's half brother. So when Napoleon fell, he was exiled. Land X job was gone at that point. In eighteen sixteen, Laonex finally got that position that had always eluded him, an appointment as a hospital physician. He was hired at Neck Hospital as head of hospital service, and that same year he also created the medical apparatus that would change medicine. That new position at the hospital was not entirely a joyous appointment, however, it had opened up because one of laon X mentors and his close friend, Gaspar Laurent Bail, had died of tuberculosis. We're about to talk about the moment of inspiration that led to the first stath scope, but first we're going to take a moment of our own responsive break. The story of the stethoscope's actual moment of invention has taken on a few inconsistencies, as we frequently see when it comes to historically significant events, but these actually aren't too wildly varied. They mostly just involved the timing of this inspiration. That inspiration was Lank witnessing two children playing in the courtyard of Lularufe Palace. So he's said to have seen these two kids using a long piece of wood to send signals to each other. They would scratch the end of the solid piece with a pin. One child was doing the scratching while the other one listened on the other end, listening for the sound to travel through the wood. So in some versions of this story he sees this happening and then a lot of time passes before he tries to put it into use. But in others, he was walking on the way to see a patient when he saw these two kids doing this. Either way, though, the kids and their wooden sound conveyance are credited with inspiring Land. When the doctor himself wrote about it, though he did not mention these kids, he did mention the pen scratching a would beam. Yes, he wrote it quote, I recalled a well known acoustic phenomenon. If you place your ear against one end of a would beam, the scratch of a pin at the other end is distinctly audible. It occurred to me that this physical property might serve a useful purpose in the case I was dealing with. I then tightly rolled a sheet of paper, one end of which I placed over the precordium chest and my ear to the other. I was surprised and elated to be able to hear the beating of her heart with far greater clearness than I ever had with direct application of my ear. I immediately saw that this might become an indispensable method for studying not only the beating of the heart, but all movements able of producing sound in the chest cavity or jumping ahead just a bit, though, because the case at hand was also a source of inspiration, and this is often described as lanex solving a problem of embarrassments as much as one of medical met In September of eighteen sixteen, the doctor was called to see a young woman who had quote general symptoms of a diseased heart. He wanted to listen to her chest to be clear asqultation, which is listening to the sound of a patient's heart, lungs, or other organs. That was not a new idea. In eighteen sixteen, Hippocrates had made references to internal sounds as a means of diagnosis, and doctors who preceded Lanek had theorized that some sort of mechanism might eventually be developed that would enable physicians to listen to their patient's bodily sounds. But more specifically leading up to this particular moment and influencing leon x idea was the work of Viennese doctor Leopold Aumbruger. He had used an idea that he had seen in his youth his father tapping a barrel to see how full it was, and applied that concept to medical exam do nations. He determined that a human chest that was filled with fluid would sound dull when you tapped it, whereas a healthy human chest cavity would have resonance when tapped. And this percussive diagnosis method was something that had been written about in the eighteenth century and translated into French by Napoleon's doctor Jean Nicola, who was also one of Latin teachers in eighteen o eight. Aside from tapping on a patient's chest, the other method for collecting information for diagnosis of chest ailments was immediate ascultation, which meant that the doctor would put their head directly onto the patient's chest and listen. But in this particular case, Lanik was reluctant because of the patient's age and sex. He did not want to put his head up against her chest. And this is when he recalled the idea that we just quoted. Because he recognized he could actually hear better with his rolled up sheet of paper than with his ear alone. Started him down a path of experimenting to further develop this idea, and that came to be called mediate ascultation. Yeah, we're going to talk about percussion again a bit towards the end of the episode, but they were kind of tied up together as this, like, listen to the sounds the body makes and you will figure things out. So he did as Tracy said, start experimenting and created multiple versions, and his refined versions, which he worked on for several years, still did not ever really look like the stethoscopes were familiar with today. Remember, for one thing, things like rubber tubing were just not around yet. Lane focused on creating his stethoscopes out of wood. He had experimented with other materials, but he found a hollow wooden tube to produce the best sound. Sometimes people attribute this back to his work playing the flute and how he made that connection. But it's not entirely clear, but he created a chest piece that fitted at one end and further improved his ability to hear. And then he made his stethoscope into two pieces that could be unscrewed for ease of carrying, and then they could be quickly screwed back together so that a doctor could use them for diagnosis. In eighteen eighteen, Renee Lanek gave a presentation about his stethoscope at the Paris Academy of Sciences. In eighteen nineteen, he published a two volume book about his work, was Mediate Ascultation or Treatise on Diagnosis of Lung and Heart Diseases. He described his stethoscope in its This was twenty five centimeters long and three and a half centimeters in diameter, and the name for the stethoscope didn't come into print until eighteen twenty. Before that, he just called his device lu Celand, which if you see some pictures of it, it just it looks like a cylinder. Does not see how any fancy adornments. There's no like ear trumpet kind of shape to it just looks like a cylinder. Eventually, though he went with the root of stethos, which was the Greek word for chest. Yeah, you'll see that second part of the word. The scope attributed to like a jillion diff rent words to create this portmanteau, everything from Greek words to French words to um, you know some that just go well, let's scope because it's a scope, which is pretty funny. Uh uh. He also included in that that work, his two volume book, extensive research that he had done using this invention. He treated a lot of patients with pneumonia and he used this stethoscope in assessing their conditions. When any of his patients died, he performed autopsies, and he found that the conclusions he had been able to reach using his new instrument were corroborated by what he found. Lane stethoscope was quickly recognized as invaluable for diagnosis, and as his book was translated, starting in eighty one in London, doctors from around the European continent soon we're eager to learn how to use it, and a lot of them traveled to Paris to hear lectures from Leonek himself. After this, Lanek continued his medical career Ino he was made the chair and Professor of Medicine at the College of France, and the year after became the Professor of Medicine at Opdachart. He was a member of the French Academy of Medicine. Also, he quickly garnered such a reputation for really excellent lectures that the lecture halls were frequently packed with doctors that wished to hear him speak. Lane kept a log of everyone who attended his lectures and kept an almost ridiculously busy schedule of hospital rounds, lectures and consultations. Yeah, there's a you will occasionally find some papers that talk about how you can trace laan X through these logs that he kept of doctors that attended his lectures, and then how his information and his knowledge of pulmonary disease in particular kind of propagated throughout the world over time. At this point he was in his forties and Laonek kindly settled into his now successful career, and he actually got married to a widow named Jacquette guilgu and the new leweds wanted to start a family that was unfortunately not to be there. One pregnancy ended in a miscarriage and Soon after that loss, which he took quite hard, his health began to decline. He was actually in a little bit of denial about this for a while. He had not realized, despite all of his work and research in tuberculosis, how very contagious it was. There had been discussion of tuberculosis as a contagious disease even before his time, but there were also theories that it could be hereditary. There were some theories that it could even be a type of cancer, so it wasn't necessarily uh universally recognized as a contagious disease. The term tuberculosis didn't even exist yet. That wouldn't happen until the following decade, when it was coined by German Dr Johann Shaunlin. But over time he had all the tell tale symptoms of tuberculosis. He was finally diagnosed by his nephew, married at Lane, using a stethoscope to listen to the much beloved doctor. Although Renee Lanek once again traveled to Brittany in the spring of eighteen six hoping that his health would improve, that did not achieve the desired result. He was able to finish a revised edition of his book on Mediate Escortation that was published that year. It had specific details of certain sounds and what they might indicate. This work laid the groundwork for knowledge of pulmonary diseases. Lanek died not long after it was completed, That was on August. Lan x work continues to be part of modern medicine. He was the first to describe micronodular cirrosis of the liver, which is still known as lan X cirrhosis, and his extensive writing on pulmonary classifications is still used. He advanced the medical community's understanding of pneumonia, emphysema, and other conditions. There's a coda to this part of the story, though, in terms of how Lanik was viewed, just a decade after he died. In an eighteen thirty eight English language translation of his Treatise on the Diseases of the Chest and on Mediate Aescultation, the translator included some interesting discussion about Lanox writings about himself. The translator's note states in the first paragraph quote, the original treatise will remain an imperishable monument of the genius and industry of its author, and the discovery of which it treats will entitle him to a distinguished rank among the benefactors of mankind. As a standard work on the pathology and diagnosis of the diseases of the chest, it is not only without an equal, but may be considered as almost perfect in its kind. But then, a couple of paragraphs down, after continuing to mention the importance of escultation, the same translator rights quote. At the same time, it would be exacting too much from the weakness of humanity to expect that the author of mediate ascultation should in no case have yielded to the enthusiasm naturally inspired aired by the consciousness of so great a discovery. And if in a few passages of his book he should be found to somewhat exaggerate the actual or relative importance of his method, or even sometimes to appear rather as the partisan than the historian of the stethoscope, i am sure that a fault so venal and in such a man ought not to be visited by heavy censure. Especially this says that the translator thinks that laon X is puffing up the importance of his invention, but that it's also okay, because he really was pretty great, and he did advance medicine with his work. It's a fascinating way to frame all this, and it seems like maybe he's trying to pre address critics of laon X, since he also mentions that some people claim to have tried the stethoscope and found it unhelpful. Just a glimpse into this perception of this device while it was still in its infancy after lan x death. Yeah, he a lot of doctors were super into it, but there were something were like I tried to listen, I didn't get anything. So it's just kind of an interesting thing to know that there was a little bit of controversy as much as as it does sound in a lot of ways like the medical community pretty quickly picked it up. But you may be wondering what came of this invention because it obviously took a number of additional turns as it developed into the tool that we see commonly in use today. And we're going to talk about some of those turns after we first hear from the sponsors that keep stuff you missed in history class going. Several other physicians contributed to the development of the stethoscope. The first change to it actually appeared in the last year of lan X life. That was the work of Pierre Dave Pierri, who was born thirteen years after Lanek on December and he started studying medicine when he was just fifteen, and at the age of nineteen he became ed chirogien militaire in the Napoleonic Wars when he was drafted while he still a medical student. In that role, he traveled to Spain and he got a very hands on education at a military hospital in Barcelona. Like Laonek, he studied medicine with men such as Clarvissard and Bail. Once he got back to Paris and in eighteen sixteen he completed the thesis that earned him his medical degree that was titled on the danger of reading medical text books by the laity. He started working at Lakatomie de Medicine in eight and he was considered to be a gifted teacher. From there he climbed the ladder in Paris's medical facilities and became the chair of medicine at in eighteen thirty seven. Pierre specialized in percussion as a clinician, and that, as we mentioned earlier, is exactly what it sounds like tapping parts of the body to gain an understanding of the structures and the organs within, and Lanak had actually used his cylindrical stethoscope for percussion as well. He used it as a tapping tool. But the success of the stethoscopes used in oscultation had to eclipse the practice of percussion, and Pierre wanted to both replicate lane success and reputation and gain his own renown while also reiterating the usefulness of percussion as a diagnostic tool. Perhaps the most charming thing about his story is that he was a poet as well as a physician, and he wrote about his work in percussion and his contribution to the stethoscope in a poem titled Lamb or God's Soul. In Nature and the poem, he described praying to God to be able to contribute to the development of medicine as Lanek had, and how he was inspired when he came aware of the sound he heard when he scratched his own chest. Immediately he began to experiment in this area, eventually developing a method of placing a small plate between the patient's skin and the doctor's finger to both control the way the sound was heard and to reduce the discomfort to the patient of being tapped in this one spot repeatedly. Soon he integrated this plate with a stethoscope. An example of Pierre's version of the tool was included as an illustration in that same English language translation on Lanox work that we referred to just a bit ago, and it describes Pierres stethoscope this way quote. This stethoscope is constructed exactly on the same principles as that of Lank, but with several modifications intended to render it lighter, smaller, and more portable. In it, the central bore and conical cavity of the pectoral extremity are preserved of the original dimensions, but the body of the instrument is greatly reduced in size, and the proper width is given to the articular extremity by screwing a thin ivory cap to the slender body of the instrument. The pleximeter is attached to the stethoscope merely with a view to render the former conveniently portable. So in case that's not clear, it was a smaller version of the stethoscope, but one end of it expanded out in a wide, shallow conical shape with the plate that was the plex seminar over the widest part of the cone. The flat plate would be placed against the torso of the patient, and then the doctor would tap it with a finger or a small hammer. Today, physicians will usually use their hand instead of a plate for this. Lanek actually attended Puri's talk at the Royal Academy of Medicine when he introduced these ideas. Although Pierre's book on the subject didn't come out until well after Renee Lanek had died, Perry had included the inventor of the stethoscope in the dedication. You know, Uh, it's unclear. Uh, you know what lanox response was. He was was the end of his life, so he probably did not have a lot of energy to write at length about it. The first binaural stethoscope, meaning that it had separate earpieces for each year, was the work of Dr Nathan B. Marsh. You actually see a few different people credited with this um because many people were trying to improve it at the same time. Marsh was born in the late eighteen teens in Newark, New Jersey, and moved when he was still quite a small boy with his family to Cincinnati, Ohio. There is a Marsh stethoscope in the collection of the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History. It's not a fully intact model. The earpieces and their connector tubes are missing, but this one has three ebony bells of differing sizes that you can screw off and on. Marsh received the first patent for a binalstethoscope. That was US patent in eighteen fifty one, but the following year a version was invented by New York doctor George P. Cammon. Cammon, who was born in eighteen o four, had actually traveled to Paris for postgraduate work in the late eighteen twenties, and he had studied with some of land ex colleagues, and his work in New York with the city's poor population at the Northern Dispensary, which was a free clinic that opened in eighteen thirty. He wanted to improve his diagnostic tools so that he could get as much information as possible in cases where he just had limited time with the patients. Yeah. I saw one one write up theorizing that some of it too. Because New York had a large immigrant population, he had to be able to do diagnostics in ways that did not count on everyone speaking the same language. I don't know if that's true or not. That was a theorization. As a result of that desire, though, to just improve his ability to work with his patients, he built on models that he had already seen that had two ear pieces, although in some cases those two ear piece versions were designed so that two physicians could listen to a person's chest at one time. There were also other doctors working on binural stethoscopes, but there have been problems making a model that was practical for continual daily use. Camen tested various materials and designs, and he finally came up with a design very similar to modern instruments. If you see a picture of it. In Cammon's version, there were two stiff metal tubes with ivory ear pieces, and the ends opposite The ear pieces on those metal tubes connected to two flexible too tubes with tightly wound silk coverings. Those flexible tubes connected into a hollow ball which connected to the bell section which was held to the patient's chest. That hollow ball was said to um amplify the sound. Canon's device was manufactured for wide distribution, but he didn't patent it because he thought it should be available to all physicians. In the eighteen nineties, the fernendoscope was introduced by two Italian doctors, Eugenio Batsy and Aurelio Bianchie. This design, which the inventors claimed was superior to the stethoscope, had a rigid diaphragm disc and a removable outer disc, and then a rod that extended from one side of the larger disc and held a smaller rubber disc the side opposite that had two metal tubes extending from its center that could be fitted with rubber tubes that ran up to earpieces. That was a departure from the canon style that at that point had been adopted by physicians around the world, and while it was produced for several decades, eventually fell out of favor. It is an odd looking thing to me if you see it, It's like the little rod that extends with a smaller piece looks so tiny compared to the larger disc it comes from. I'm like, why why would you put such a teeny piece up against the patient? But what do I know. Also in the nineties, Massachusetts doctor Robert Bowles invented a diaphragm chess piece, which was a departure from the bell shape that had been the most common design, and it was very simple to apply that because if it's it's large surface area to the patient's chest. In the Bulls design was incorporated with the bell design into one chest piece by Boston's Howard Sprague to respond for the demand for an instrument that had both options. So in the Sprague version, instead of that bell, it created a shape that looks like a cone with a diaphragm over the widest part. This came to be known as the Sprague Bowls stethoscope and it was very popular for the next two decades. In the forties, Sprague, who was a cardiologist, once again revisited the design at the at the Scope, this time with collaborator Maurice Rappaport. Together they came up with a chess piece that was two sided. One side was optimal for listening to the cardiovascular system, while the other was best for respiratory assessments. This is attempt to separate out the best of both worlds approach of the Sprague Bowls model, and it worked. But when the two tubes that led from the double sided chess piece to the airpieces rubbed together, it created so much interference that could be really frustrating the doctors. Can you imagine, like I'm trying to listen to your loan function, what is that scraping noise? It's actually my instrument. The next step in stethoscope evolution came from Dr. David Littman, who was a Harvard Medical School professor and a cardiologist. And Littman addressed those issues with the Sprague and Rappaport version of the stethoscope by creating a one sided chess piece. So unlike there's what you had to flip side to side, his was just one sided, and it had a diaphragm that had a dial that could be tuned for different purposes. This nineteen sixties version remains the design for standard stethoscopes today. Littman founded a company called Cardio Sonics to manufacture his device. That company was eventually acquired by three M. Today, of course, there are all kinds of specialized stethoscopes, stethoscopes with Bluetooth connectivity, and even plans you can download online if you want to print your own stethoscope with a three D printer, among other developments. They're all still based on that Littman design and that has roots that easily trace back to Ladeck stethoscopes. Who knew? I, Um, it's it's I love reading about how it was really all because he was he didn't want to touch his patient directly. Honestly, they're a little newer than I would have thought, because I think things like ear trumpets are a little older than this. There's at least like written, and it's like it just seems like somebody would have stuck their ear trumpet onto somebody's you know, chest man. No, they were just sticking their ear up against their chest. Um. We can talk somewhere about that in the behind the scenes. Yeah. But in the meantime, I have a listener mail, which is from our listener Angie, about one of our episodes that's a little less lighthearted. It is the Mildred Fish Harneck episode. Sure, it's hi, Tracy and Holly. I just got done listening to the Mildred Fish Harneck episode. I adore your podcast, and I listened to it while I jog after work. This episode must have made me look crazy to passers by, because I was openly sobbing like the ugly cry kinding while still jogging and listening um boy, I know that feeling, because I did that a few times while I was prepping it. Uh. Mildred's story touched me deeply and more than I thought it could. I am a graduate of the University of Wisconsin Madison, and it made my heart swell to learn how brave and true Mildred was. UH. U W Madison places a strong emphasis on using your education to help others. This is called the Wisconsin idea, and I cannot help but think that moral compass was cemented in Mildred's heart during her college years. I also studied German languages as an undergrad at u W, where we learned not just the language, but also about the White Rose resistance group and others who stood up for what was right and paid with their lives. Uh. One of my professors in the German department grew up in East Germany, and she described living through the horrifying experiences of East German informants. It was a dystopia where anyone would inform on anyone else. Children reported, parents, wives reported husbands. You literally could not trust yourself to speak your thoughts, even in your own room, because you never knew if your own home was bugged. It was and still is to this day. I believe the most widespread and organized state surveillance effort in the world. Even then, though there were people like my professor who met with other resistors instead of for what was right, even in small ways. She later found out she had a lengthy file with the police. After reunification, East Germany ceased to be and those files were made public. Uh, she asked if we could potentially do a show on East German resistance, you might Uh, we do definitely have one from the archives on the White Rose. And then she also sent us some beautiful, beautiful pictures. I'm sorry I made you cry, but I'm glad that Mildred's story is getting more widespread, um, you know, discussion in general. There's also a new book about her. A couple of people have written to us about so there's plenty to cover if you wanna to read and learn about her. She was quite amazing. Thank you for writing to us, Angie. If you would like to write to us, you can do so at History Podcast at iHeart radio dot com. You can also find us on social media as Missed in History and subscribing as easy as pie. You can do that on the I heart radio app or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.