Terminator 2: Schizoaffective Disorder & Normalized Criminal Behavior

Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Bernie Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinoza marriage and family therapists. We're all
licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment
purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture in all forms. Please
remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your therapist.
If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local mental
health provider. So I'm really excited today because we're going to be talking about
one of my favorite movies from as long ago as when I was a child
terminator too. Yes, we are skipping entirely over the first movie and getting
to the second one, which, in my opinions, better than the first
one. I think it is a wildly held opinion that it's one of the
few times when the sequel outpaces the original immediately. Yes, and all I
really have to know about this movie is that there is a young woman named
Sarah Connor who when she's like must have been eighteen or nineteen, gets told
that she's going to birth basically the robot apocalyptic Messiah. And then because of
that, over the years she has been subject to violence and all that stuff
while raising her son, John, who's supposed to grow up to be this
big, old, tough, old warrior person. So, as we introduced
in this movie, we're introduced to someone who is in a mental health facility.
It seems like a criminal for the criminally the probably said criminally insane back
then was ninety one. I'm sure they did. Yeah. So as we're
introduced as characters in this movie is Sarah has been in and out of the
state pretty much and John, her son is now ten and in foster care.
So today we're going to be talking about schizo effective disorder. We're also
going to be talking about all the sort of mental health treatment basically dues,
and don't we see in this movie what we would do differently? As always,
we can't not talk about what's our word, trauma. And then with
John, we're going to be talking about the way he presents in this movie,
both that someone who a child who is seeking some sort of parent and
then also someone who displays a lot of what we call on the field like
normalized criminal behavior. Yes, so right away when we're introduced to Sarah,
they say in the movie that she is diagnosed with acute schizo effective disorder,
which is a diagnosis we have never talked about on this podcast before, I
don't think, which is impressive because we've talked about a lot of diagnosis at
this point on the podcast, we have talked about a lot, and schizo
effective is one that we have all worked with quite acutely. Yes, given
our work in community mental health, Yes, absolutely, But it's also a
diagnosis that then reminded us before we started recording that we, as licensed clinical
professional counselors, would not diagnose ourselves in our office. This is one of
those diagnosis we would send off to a psychiatrist to have them diagnosed. Correct.
You need as a clinical psychologist or a psychiatrist to provide a diagnosis of
schizo effective disorder or anything on the psychotic spectrum. So really quickly, I'm
just going to do the psycho educational portion, and I'm going to talk about
the criteria of schizo effective disorder according to the DSM. So basically, someone
with schizo effective disorder has to meet the primary criteria for schizophrenia. So that
includes two or more of the following delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech like speech
that is easily disrailed or derailed or is incoherent, grossly disorganized, or catatonic
behavior, and then negative symptoms which is like negative like sad. It's negative
like absence of so their their face is flat, they don't move a lot,
their speech can be very also like drawn out on a tone yeah m
And then but schizo effective must also include at least two of the following symptoms
of a mood disorder as well, So they have to major mood episode either
a major depressive or mania that lasts for an uninterrupted period of time, and
the delusions or whose hallucinations for two or more consecutive weeks without mood symptoms sometime
during the line the life of the illness, and then mood symptoms are present
for the majority of the illness and the symptoms aren't caused by substance use.
So what I think is interesting is I think people know about schizophrenia. People
sometimes know about mood disorders with psychosis. But I don't think a lot of
people know that schi schizo effective disorder even exists. No, probably not.
I think a lot of people would, particularly students, would want to diagnose
somebody who presents with schizo effective disorder as having schizophrenia and then also having a
mood disorder without understanding that there is an entire diagnostic classification that can cover that.
But schizo effective, as you may have guessed from how Brittany described it,
is one of the ones that can be tricky through diagnosed, which is
why it requires a doctorate to do that, because it needs a careful assessment
of understanding what is causing the psychosis and is the psychosis primary or does the
psychosis only occur when the mood symptoms are active, Because you can have depression,
a major depressive disorder, or bipolar disorder with a severe specifier that also
has a with psychotic features specifier to it, and difference is that the people
who have a mood disorder or a mood disorder with psychotic features, the psychotic
features are only active when the mood disorder is severe. People who have Schizzo
effective disorder will have psychosis present all the time and also have mood disorder episodes
present, and that's the difference. And then also this population who has that
are going to likely have substance abuse issues in their history. And it's really
difficult to suss out when these things are happening and which one is which,
because people can also seek to use medications and drugs to suppress constant psychosis that
are creating really difficult struggles in their life. No, for sure, Yeah,
I mean the way I kind of think about it, which is how
we talked about before we started recording, is that getso effective is like the
psychosis is kind of the dominant thing and the mood kind of follows behind it
or is pumped up with it. And then with bipolar or depression, and
with psychosis, it's like the mood comes on and then the psychotic features come
along with that. And so I think with Sarah, it makes sense given
the world of the movie in which they don't believe what she's saying is real,
that she is psychosis forward and that she's constantly talking about these delusions about
I birthed like the robot Messiah, we are in constant danger, like the
paranoia that she exhibits and how Adam and she is about that, like they
have all these they show us in the movie, like the video where she's
like screaming at them about the death to come right. We see her so
distressed and activated and these people don't know what they don't know that she's telling
the truth. And so from a clinical perspective, we'll talk about their treatment
of her in a second, but they're the diagnostic presentation. It makes sense
why they would ascribes gets to an effective disorder to her because she's showing constant
psychoses, but yes, having mood episodes as well, but the mood episodes
are intermittent. Yeah, So realistically, speaking on that aspect of mental health,
they probably actually did their homework when they were coming up with what diagnostic
label Sarah might have with these scenes in the hospital, because I think clinically
I agree that that's probably what they would think. I was like genuinely surprised
to hear these cases kids go effective, because you're right, that is very
well thought through. Like I think technically in these kind of movies, they
would just say she's schizophrenic or she's a psychotic disorder. They would just say
something flashier and not necessarily use a genuine psychiatric term that not a lot of
people know about. Right, if you're not outside of the field, you
probably never heard these words put together before. M Yeah. Absolutely, but
she probably would be given that, given, like we said, the omnipresence
of this belief. And even in her sessions with Silverman, she's talking to
him and he's like, yeah, Sarah, I just don't believe. You
don't believe that. I think you're very smart, and you're telling me what
you think I want to hear, and I just don't believe. And we're
gonna have to keep you here for a little while longer. M Oh,
guy, I mean that interaction wasn't tremendously inappropriate. It's the things he said
to his colleagues. I think that got really inappropriate. Yeah. Absolutely,
I think his interactions with her were. Okay, Well, I feel like
we're already getting there, so might as well us talk about the mental treatment
we see in this movie. This is one of the few movies we watch
where we actually get to see mental treatment occur, and boy, howdy is
it not good. Yeah, it's terrifying. It is terrifying, and it
probably lends to some of the stigma of what people think will happen when they
get recommended for hospitalization or told they have to go that they think they're going
to go somewhere or where they're going to be treated. Like Sarah Connor was,
They're going to go to a state psychiatric hospital that's probably a prison facility
basically, and that's the way they're going to be treated. Now, I
can't speak to the way people might have been treated in nineteen ninety one.
Yeah, yeah, but I know a lot of the facilities like that in
our state closed maybe ten years after that or fifteen, okay, but a
lot of the state run mental health facilities that would have looked like that place
closed, and there were lots of allegations that they were not so great places
that were built long ago in the sixties, like Timley Park Mental Health Center,
for example. Okay, just like, yeah, just straight up prison.
That's what I keep thinking when I was watching it. This is basically
a prison um Just like the coldness of the place, the fact that the
orderlies are all carrying like billy cup clubs basically baton night sticks that they're like
also doing that very like sinister guard behavior of like whacking the nightstick all along
all the walls so people can't sleep, you know, licking her face like
that. One orderly is obviously not a good person, and it was abusing
the power of his position. Yeah, he is a villain. I mean
you see that. But you know people who had been clients in places similar
to that had been known to report, yeah, behavior like that. And
we learned from the Stanford prison experiment that human behavior that goes unchecked and falls
unto specific roles will dehumanize other humans really fast. Yeah, and it gets
really scary. But watching that get shown in such a popular movie and Oscar
winning film, I can't imagine the damage it continues to have given. The
Terminator is still so in the zite guys of people go like, no,
I don't want to go to a place like that, where they're gonna put
me in a stark white room and so people are gawking at me like a
fish in a bowl right behind a thick glass window, and that people are
going to be talking about me behind a little speaker in the wall. Yeah,
the treatment we see Sarah Gate is not great. Now Silverman is showing
a lot of mixed signals he's at best neutral with her, and we see
that he's showing off sometimes for his students or hollies that he's treated absolutely and
that's not okay. Like what he's sitting in the room with her, the
way he's asking her questions, it's almost like he's trying to write a book
with her story or build off his own or build up his own brand,
kind of like we saw in the rob Zombie Halloween that they had Loomis to
where he was writing a book and speaking about his work with Michael Myers,
which was also super unethical. I mean, I think that's a common trope
in movies. Like we were also talking about science of Lambs before we started
recording two of like there being like a main psychiatrist who seems to be just
like treating the person in their care as at best a science experiment or a
topic for a book, something that's going to be their agenda that makes them
famous, or doing something for them, because I think if nothing else,
he's never demonstrating patient centered care with her. Yeah, Like even in that
like interrogation footage that he showed to her later when she was in a more
like quote unquote Lucid state from his perspective, The fact that he's like,
tell me the dream again, and she's like, I have the same dream
every day, Like why you know, it's just I mean, the whole
environment, Like if we're just gonna talk about the quote unquote session they had,
if you even want to call the session, Like the fact that it's
in basically an interrogation room, the fact that their orderlies milling around with their
nightsticks while she's suposed to be open. I mean, I think the only
quote unquote good thing that she gets out of those is they let her smoke
cigarettes while she does it right. Yeah. But other than that, like
he doesn't come at her from a place of belief, you know, even
though she's presenting well, he does that thing. Also that I can't stand
that metal mental health professionals doing movies, which is like act like they're a
lie detectors. Yeah, like I know when you're lying, you know,
because the things that she brings up, like I know he is a history
with her, yes, but the things that she brings up are real things,
Like I'm trying to do well because I want to see my son,
you know, I have a goal in mind, Like I know we know,
because we know the world of the movie that she is bullshitting you know,
what they want to see. But I would say, like viewing her
as a client, I can't necessarily look at somebody and think you'd be like,
oh, I think you're bullshitting me, so fuck you. Yeah,
that's not a thing that we can do, you know, and then and
then having no remorse for how that's going to be upsetting her, Like obviously
her reaction is probably a trauma reaction, yes, but his whole delivery of
that I found really distasteful And I wouldn't do as a clinician because it's just
like, what what's supposed to motivate her to be engaged with treatment? If
when she's quote unquote doing well, you're still like, mmm, I don't
believe you because I think it's from of various purposes, and I'm going to
call you out as such and kind of squash you're, like what you're hoping
for and what you're working towards with your mental health treatment. It kind of
makes it so she can't win. Yeah, it's very lose lose for her.
If I'm doing well in presenting while in cooperating, they're just going to
say I'm bullshitting, and then if I'm presenting more honestly in their perspective,
then I'm still very ill and I have to stay where I am. I
think this is where the world of this story gets really tricky. Yeah,
because I find myself, having worked for a long time in a residential I'm
a little torn, and I partially disagree with you and partially agree. Okay,
Like I find myself. Yes, of course, you don't want to
take away people's motivations, and you don't want to use the things that are
meaningful to them that hadn't become motivating contributing factors to their wellness protective factors.
Right, you don't want to take those away, but you also want what
they're doing to be real and based in reality. Now, depending on what
point in their treatment and what their prognosis is would depend on how you engage
with that. What you don't do is tell people that their psychotic perceptions aren't
real. That you don't do that's not helpful, right, And that part
I agree with you on, like he's not doing a good job at all
of helping her understand Like, okay, I understand that that was that's very
real for you. I don't. I don't see them, and I don't
have any information on terminators. I don't know anything about them. And there
are ways to go to have that conversation with the psycho a person who's like
persons suffering a psychosis that is empathic, without shaming them, Like you know,
I get that that was very real for you. I'm I'm not seeing
them right now, so and I've never encountered that or heard of them.
I imagine that was really terrifying for you that you felt that way without agreeing
or disagreeing, and I agree with that. I guess I'm not thinking of
that in the context of the conversation that they have in the movie, because
my perception of that conversation is that she's been doing well for a while,
in an effort for six months, for six months, and so that's why
I think what you're bringing up a valid point. I think that's how he
should have he should be always treating her. I would say, at this
point, she is saying like, I'm not. I recognize those were delusions
and those weren't real, Like I recognize that that's not my reality. I'm
she's presenting well. Quote unquote according to the history that he's giving us yes
in the movie. And so the fact that so I'm I think you're right
on, I just feel like that's a separate point than what I'm resonating with
in terms of that specific interaction, because I think what's also hard is that
we're obviously we're only seeing like literally a day yeah in this movie, so
we don't know. Because also, like I know this was for dramatic effect
to introduce the character in this movie, Like she was like fully doing those
like cape Fear level pull ups in her room, like it's not long ago.
So like though she may be thinking that she'd been doing the weight of
the past six months, I wonder how much she's still exhibiting behaviors that might
be like, Oh, but I think the way that he that he points
all that out, the way he squashes her, I don't know. I
think his overall just the way that he engages with her is so off putting,
Like in that he does I don't feel like he treats her like a
person, Yeah, I feel like he treats her like a curiosity yeah,
and an interesting yeah curiosity. Yeah. And so I don't think he really
is thinking about how he is making her feel, which is why in that
room when he just kind of squashes on her, like I'm not getting the
feel from him that he's coming at her with compassion, and that part,
I agree with you, and I don't think he is. I think where
I'm torn is that he does know her, and he is watching her,
and as he's established, she has hurt him and assaulted him several times,
that is also true, and he knows that from giving her chances that the
second she knows she has an advantage or has a way out, that she's
gonna try to escape and she's going to think. So he knows what he's
dealing with is persistent and profoundly believed by her. So having watched her past
patterns of behavior, I can understand why he would be skeptical. I don't
agree with the way he was presenting that to her. I agree with the
limit setting and the being forthright that Sarah, I just I don't know that
I believe you, but I don't think it was compassionately delivered, and I
don't think it was delivered with any sort of moving forward. This is what
I would need to see to believe you. Because it set up, like
Hannah said, like you can't win, and we don't want that. It's
okay to limit set when you're with clients who you feel like are manipulating you,
and particularly in facilities like that, people will do that and it can
be part of the illness that they have for them to be doing that.
It will not tell you the truth necessarily if you're in a prison facility,
So being aware of limit setting that you have to do is challenging. But
he could still be operating away. He's communicating to her. He's actually on
her team. He's part of her treatment, not one of her captors.
And he does not do a good job of that. Yeah, I would
say doesn't do a good job of that at all. And I don't like
his portrayal, the portrayal that we have of someone who's supposed to be in
the field working with people who are severely mentally ill. No, Yeah,
because also too it sounds like he My assumption is maybe this is how they
set it and I just can't remember all all. Like verbatim is that he
proffered this idea of like if you can behave for six months, if you
can show a progress six months, we'll move you like he created, Like,
why does she have this expectation that she can move down to minimal security
that she could have hesitation with John like that I'm assuming was presented to her.
So I think that's the part that also feels unfair, Like I dangled
this carrot in front of you. You met me there supposedly, and then
I'm saying, oh, well because I because you're right, Ben, is
that I think what was really missing too was I'm still a little concerned about
YadA YadA YadA. Yeah, so like if you if you can give me
one more month to kind of see how things are going, and maybe we'll
adjust this or we'll adjust that. You know. It's being more clear with
her about what it because this is what I have to do with clients.
Is like when I especially when I worked with them in the field, like
you were saying, Ben, that were more like psychosis kind of stuff or
just more intensive things going on. Is where I'd have to be really careful
is being very clear about what I was still seeing concretely that made me feel
concerned, Yeah, why that was impacting my decision or assessment, and then
having to give them hope still like and asking and I think also this is
where you have to be always mindful of the power dynamic of like also asking
for they are patience with me, like and validating that the information of giving
them is upsetting potentially you know. So the way he could have done differently
is I know we talked about this, and I know this is the agreement.
I still have concerns in these areas because of what I've seen bah bah
blah blah, or like this thing that happened last week, or the fact
that you're still tearing up your room, you know, and bringing up my
past injuries, like provoking me basically, which is what she was doing.
Yeah, And so if we can have another month where this, this and
this is happening, you know, I would love to visit this conversation.
And I really appreciate you giving me more time, or I really appreciate you
being patient with me. Make them feel like they are an adult, make
them feel like they are part of the conversation and not that you were just
dominating them. Yeah, which is like we talked about. In these kind
of especially state run facilities or facilities run like this, it's so easy to
feel like hopeless and helpless and that the man has their boot on your neck.
And then then like you're saying, Ben, like then why wouldn't you
lie to them, Why wouldn't you bullshit them? Right? Wouldn't you be
trying whatever you could to get out? Because it's fucked anyway, which is
yeah, And so you have to proffer hope and and cooperation, like not
just them cooperating with you, but it being being collaborative, yes, And
I think there's more of an emphasis and ascility like that of like compliance and
obedience, and that's just fucked. Yeah. I mean that's where you know,
doing mental health treatment in a facility as a physician, where the physicians
going to ultimately have the decision on whether or not they're appropriate for lower levels
of care, probably shouldn't be the person doing the treatment, and they can
do be a person sitting and doing assessment with them, but that person probably
shouldn't be the assessor, probably shouldn't be the treating treatment rendering provider at that
point because of rapport, yeah, and because of the ability to separate out
the role of assessor from therapist. Again, in my work, I don't
have any ability whatsoever to determine whether somebody is appropriate to be at work or
not. I have the ability as a clinician to determine if somebody safe,
but I don't have any role in the assessment of fitness for duty. So
you're telling me all those movies you've watched so far where they have to go
see the therapist that the police department was not true A telling me that basic
instinct was not telling us the truth. Sometimes it's that way. Some places
do do it that way. So was basic instinct telling the truth? Hellout
you decide? I mean, no, no, no, it's a horrible
depiction of that, but and breaches of ethics all over everywhere, but it
it was. It is done that way sometimes, but it's not in Chicago,
where the people who assess people's fitness or duty are all outside vendors who
don't know these people from anybody else, so that they can have clinical independence
and not have any bias in what they're doing. And there's no way Silverman
would have that if he's also doing her treatment, which also a psychiatrist would
almost never do. So that's a big thing they got wrong. But looking
at how important it is when you're working in a difficult setting with difficult clients
particularly, it's somewhere where people don't want to be but have to. Their
top priority is always getting out and getting their life back, because it should
be, and there's nothing wrong with that. But being aware of that dynamic
in the room and the power differential and being respectful of that and respectful of
the patient or client at all times is important. And I think what we
saw in this movie is how to do it poorly, but you still see
some limit setting and telling clients the truth of your assessment, I think is
important and sometimes clinicians really do shy away from that. Is if I have
clients who have wanted to do X, Y or Z treatment and it's up
to me as a provider to provide my assessment of Look, I don't think
you're stable enough for that. I am not comfortable doing this or that direction
treatment wise with you at this time because we're not seeing stability, we're not
seeing substance abuse, being in a place where it allows you to be regulated.
We're not seeing enough X, Y or Z that I'm comfortable doing that
at this time. But here's what I would need to get it. Well,
you're giving contexts, which we're talking about right, and he doesn't.
Yeah, he's just like, I don't believe you. And then he's also
like fingerwag at her when she has an outburst off this news. You know,
it's very like circular the situation and also too just like I wonder what
you guys think too, But like showing her the videotape of her in like
distress, like playing that back for her. I know that's for the film
of it all, like exposition dumping, like yeah, and like setting the
scene. But I feel like that would be really triggering for a client unless
they wanted to do that, or unless like you had a conversation about the
clinical reasoning for like showing them an old tape. Yeah, I don't really
know what the significance of that would be or how that would be helpful,
especially especially because if it's helpful, it would only be helpful in showing that
she's not like that anymore, yeah, in this last six months. But
I don't know what the goal would be of showing someone of a video of
themselves when they're in clear distress in the way that she is. Don't know
in this context, Yeah, what use it would have had? I think
if she were denying that she did that and that were a profuse stumbling block.
That could be a useful thing to go like, you know, I
wouldn't force it on the you know, we do have security footage of what
happened the last time when you know you did get restrained and medicated, and
you know we could if you would like to see so that we can be
on the same page, I'd be happy to show you. But it wouldn't
just go and here's all your shit. Yeah, can you just you know,
zone out through the window as I make you listen to this like traumatizing
video, because yeah, I would agreed, like I would maybe do something
about the client if also I would also do it if they were in denial
of their progress, like I think, because therapy is so day to day
or week to week for people, there can be a lot of a lack
of perspective on how far they've come. So sometimes with clients I'll say,
can I read you back something you had said like six months ago to as
like a positive thing. No, it's like, yeah, see how far
you've come. I do similar stuff with clients to help and also having discussions
with them sometimes of what you said, ben of letting them. Know,
I don't think you're ready for us to do that yet. I understand that
you want to get through this and that you are working really hard, and
I don't think that you're ready for the turmoil that is going to get starred
up when we get to this place. And I want to and a part
of my job is to help make sure that you're not traumatized if I can
avoid it. And this is a part of this, is this decision.
What we're talking about right now is a part of that. Like seeing John
again, Like that's a big deal based on like the hallucinations, the delusions
that she's verbalizing and well and how John is and how he's going to her
little buddy. I mean, no mother wants to be apart from her son.
You're going to separate her from the sun again, which you know she
may be used to now and understand, but she may have a primal reaction
too. And Hannah, I am certain you have these kinds of conversations with
people even more than I do, because with trauma treatment sometimes people like,
yeah, I want to get into the trauma, and I'm like, I
want to get into the trauma with you too. But if you're not safe,
it's not going to be helpful, and we're just gonna disregulate you further.
YEP. I tell people there's no doing therapy so hard and so good
that you win therapy or you do therapy quicker. I think, I tell
people, Yeah, yeah, Like I'm like I get the inclination to like
get to it or like to push push push, Yes, because we're putting
like more of like a medical model mindset or like a hustle culture mindset onto
therapy. Yeah, capitalistic mindset onto therapy. Yeah, but like it's gonna
be it's gonna eat itself, Like it's gonna have like a net negative right,
if you're outside of your window of tolerance, it's going to be net
unhelpful. Like it's okay to get disregulated in session a song as you know
you're safe and can reregulate. But if I think you are showing a pattern
of disregulation outside of therapy, that things we talk about in therapy then become
massive disregulation points for you in your life. You're not safe and you're not
going to believe you're safe when talking about these things. And I bet Hannah
has to have that conversation with people about couples therapy far more often than I
have to have that with trauma work. Yeah, that would be accurate.
Oh, absolutely, No. I want to bring my husband or wife in
and we want to talk about this, and I want to bring my partner
in and we want to talk about this and go like about this affair in
particular, and we have to discuss what are the boundaries of how we're going
to be able to talk about something. And it might be something where I
split them up, it might be something there's just some many different ways to
help people without having to free traumatize them, and people aren't aware that that's
what can happen, nor do they understand the implications of what that can feel
like. Right, and not because they're dumb or something, but just because
it's not something that's talked about. As we've discussed many times, there's not
any mental health education in this country, and it's just not something that's talked
about very much. It is not and you know, with couples that are
having affairs, you also want to split them up because the first and foremost
question, going back to my point about is it safe, that needs to
be asked, is are you still engaging in an affair, because if the
answer to that is in any way, yes, we are not doing couples
therapy full stop, period No, absolutely absolutely, because the goal of doing
couples therapy is working on the relationship, and if one person is already outside
of the relationship ship, no work can be done. And there's nothing more
frustrating as a couple's therapist than having one person who's outside the marriage who has
no intention of coming back into it. It'll it doesn't go anywhere. It's
very frustrating and it doesn't go anywhere, and it's not helpful, and it's
really stressful as a therapist. Yep. Or are having people not tell you
the truth, as our friend Brittany has encountered before famously. Yeah, But
I would say I want to kind of go back to one thing you had
said before before Poopoo at all avere been, was that when you are when
you are talking to someone who is who, do you do believe is experiencing
active psychosis, which I guess Silverman does think that if we're gonna like live
in the world of his perspective, he doesn't believe her for a second.
Then the way he is talking about like you were saying Ben, the way
that he is dealing with her as someone who he believe us an active psychosis
is bad. It's not the way you do it. It's stupid. And
because Hannah and I were on the same it's dysregulating. Yeah. Because Hannah
and I were on the same community support teams, we actually worked with the
same clients in the field, and a lot of them had active psychosis to
like to varying degrees, not like usually managed enough that they could live in
the world independently. Yeah, And people schezo effective can yeah, exist quite
peacefully and have productive lives yep, which people don't think is true and catastrophically
false. Yeah, and most certainly can do just fine. They might have
conversations with themselves as they're walking around, but they're not going to hurt or
bother anybody. And so one thing that I'm thinking of one client in particular,
I wonder if Hannah, you know who I'm thinking of, And they
had active psychosis probably every time we saw them. Yeah, And the approach
you we took with that person, and they approach you're supposed to take,
and this is where you were going is is you do not argue with them,
or you do not try to like talk them out of it or make
them feel stupid or wrong or be like you'll just get into a power struggle
argument that's going to just regulate them, you know, like I don't like,
what are you talking about? There's nobody upstairs, Like there's nobody following
you. Like it's just it's demeaning. It's enraging on their part because that's
their world experience. And also like I'm never gonna they really are hearing and
seeing it. So it's like, what is me telling them that's not happening
going to do for them? Because that's not true for them? And so
I'm rhymed t exidently. And so what we would do, and this is
what you were saying, Ben, is we would just because they would in
this situation thinking of they would ask us a lot to like can't you hear
it? As well? So this kind of put us in this tricky spot
of like wanting us to affirm yeah, somebody all the time, just someone
I think we are thinking of the same person, Brittany, just someone who
wanted the validation that they weren't alone. Yeah, And so what we would
say a lot or what us as the team would say a lot, which
is I think the standard way you're supposed to engagees. I know that you're
hearing it, and I know that that's blank or that's scary or whatever,
like validating them because that is their experience. And I would just say,
honestly, it's like I would say, I honestly can't tell you that I'm
hearing because I'm not, And that doesn't mean that you're not hearing it,
and so you actually lean into it, which I think is and I thought
that was counterintuitive before I did this work, And so I would imagine listening,
it'd be a while that you're hearing us say, but you don't ness,
you don't pump it up, like you don't go oh man wow,
Like how many are like you know what I mean, Like you don't like
it in you don't you don't get rapidly engaged in the delusion with them,
but you don't like you're not doing them a disservice by trying to convince them
otherwise. No, unless they're open to being convinced, which they're not.
Yeah, no one is open to being convinced that their perception isn't reality,
especially when they're experiencing consistent psychosis, right, which makes Sarah a really difficult
patient. And I mean, I've sat in the classes and now one of
my buddies, twigins, I'm gonna call you out because you listen to our
show, so I know you hear this, probably appreciate this. But it
is an actor who is working on training officers in crisis intervention work with crisis
intervention team work, and they have officers who are given this training by people
who have either survived or had family members who survived, who are either actors
or community members who are in recovery from illness, who try to teach them
how to respond to people in illnesses. And they will tell them all the
same things we're saying right now, which this doctor in this movie did not
demonstrate, which is that you don't mock them. You don't have a mocking
stance even any room remotely in your mind. You don't invalidate them. You
also don't agree with them that Britney said. You don't need to affirm things
that aren't true. You don't have to agree or disagree. You can just
say, I hear you say that, that's real for you, and it's
scary or it's upsetting, and I get why that is. I'm not hearing
it right now, and I don't. I don't have the same knowledge base
you do. I have never heard of encountered a terminator before. I haven't.
I don't know anything about that. But you know, I get that
that's real for you, and that has been a life changing, scary experience.
And I don't have to agree that that's real or not. That's irrelevant
because perception is reality. So she perceived it, it's real to her,
and I as a clinician, have to understand that. And we don't see
people do that in this film at all. But this feels like a good
spot for us to take a break. Yeah, because I think one thing
that's not acknowledged at all in this movie is what trauma in that regardless,
Like the way that Sarah has become institutionalized, you know, is because of
these major events, and there seems to be no curiosity, no interest in
the impact of how she got most positions and what the impact that might have
been on her, And there's no consideration of how they are also re traumatizing
her. Yeah, all the time in this space, Like not just the
way that they are dealing with her like Silverman and the orderlies, but also
just the entire environment. I mean, that's what's so hardcore about these kind
of institutions and why a lot of them have been shut down is because the
way that they engage with patients, like you see in the movie, like
as they're walking down the hallway in the beginning, they're like dragging someone down
the hallway, like it's aggression forward. And I used to work and you
might have had this experience too, been working residential, but I worked in
a place. I've worked in two different places where we were trained to do
holds. So when someone is of control or trying to harm themselves or someone
else where, you are trained to keep them safe by holding onto their body.
And there's very specific ways. And granted I wouldn't learn this stuff to
like in the twenty tents, so way after this movie. There's ways that
I was trained to hold people to not just do the minimal amount of damage
to myself and them, like from a physical standpoint, but also there was
a lot of awareness of like how do hold re traumatize clients? And like,
for example, because I worked in a field where there was a lot
of sexual trauma. There was always a lot of emphasis on you don't put
someone in hold lying down if you can help it, because they might have
experienced like being held down and on their stomachs or on their backs, and
so it was always like if you had to put them on the ground,
sit them on the ground, and then you let two people be on the
other side of them, just like calmly holding their arms and maybe someone's wont
in their legs if need be. Granted, I mostly worked with like and
kids, so but some of them could be quite big, Like the teenagers
were definitely bigger than me a lot of the times. But the fact that
she is in this environment too, that has got to be actively retraumatizing her,
putting her in a position where there isn't us in them. There are
people that are aggressors towards her, and how could she not then respond in
a fight way back to them, you know, because they aren't they don't
seem to be viewing her at all from a trauma perspective. They're not.
Yeah, yeah, definitely not, I mean, and I think that's the
whole setting. Though the whole setting doesn't seem very trauma focused at all,
yeah, it's not. Yeah, and under no point are we considering that
Sarah would have watched her roommate and or learned of I don't think she saw.
I think she was She was told, right, she was told at
the police station that Ginger was killed, her roommate from the first movie.
I was like the roommate in the hospital, and that she was on the
list of a victim of what appeared to be a serial killer. Yeah,
several Sarah Conners were murdered the night of the in the first movie. So
also, like, that's traumatizing if nothing else being tracked down. So I
think that fact too that they weren't like connecting any of those dots, well
they know, but they know all this, Like there is video of the
guy she described, Yeah, like the guy she described as real, So
they know somebody like that because that person did go through the police station.
There is they weren't terrogetting her in the movie and they were like, this
is connected to that guy, right, So all of that they know that
she did go through a traumatic experience that was real. The part they don't
believe is that it was a robot. Sure, they don't believe a robot
from the future, a killer robot from the future, and that they sent
back a soldier who impregnated her, which is wild. Sounds like a book
I'd read. It sounds like a fan fiction you'd write about Bucky Barns.
He is part part machine, which part Britney, one of the important parts.
But the attorney Britney read right now. Yeah. The thing I think
it's important about is nobody considers what that would have been like to her to
have been in that police station watching someone come in with weapons like that that
body armor does not stop. Yeah, and watch a number of officers murdered
in front of her who were supposed to be there to keep her safe,
and her finally believing she was safe, only to have the terminator I'll be
back and drive in and then murder everyone. Would you call like thirty five
officers or something something? I mean he liked torpedoed basically the whole police department,
right, that was bad, and then going on and on and on
throughout chasing her just to even look at basic human compassion. What would that
have been like for her. She's also only twenty nine, so those things
will happen to her. When she was nineteen right, eighteen because John had
to cook for nine months, you know what I mean. Right, she
was like nineteen years old working in a fast food restaurant as a waitress.
Like I think she on roller skates. I mean it was just it was
very cute see Apron energy, diner Energy. But she was not making money
and this wasn't like an advanced point in her life. She was very developmentally
underdeveloped yet in teenage years and watching her suffer that immense amount of trauma she
would have gone through and have that be completely ignored is therapeutically irresponsible. Just
go like, oh no, she just gets so effective, we need to
medicate, or like hold on, hold on, because even though they acknowledge
with like the interrogations and stuff in this movie, they still act as if
she's making everything up right, Like they're like it's like it's like she's getting
the shit end of the stick in both ways of Like, so, you
agree that somebody was after me and that I was amongst this horrible situation,
but yet you're not treating any of the real effect that would have on me.
You're just hyper focused on the delusional narrative that have around it, as
if this didn't really happen though, Like the destruction part of it, it's
like she can't win for losing. And part of the thing they're also holding
over her as her lack of successful cooperation and identifying this guy with the detectives
or the FBI. So I wonder if some of this is old school punitive
kind of shit. It could be, but looking at it, with the
lack of motivation the system would have to cooperate with somebody that they feel is
withholding information on officers getting killed is not going to have been great in nineteen
ninety one, if ever, And that's a factor too, Yeah, which
probably does not help their compassion towards her. No, no, yeah,
so especially if they think she is a like an accomplice of that person,
which I kind of feel like that's how they treat her. Yeah, I
think of her well, they think they don't know what. I don't remember.
If they acknowledged that Kyle Reeses existed, I don't remember. I know
they like they talk to her about Reese, but I don't know if they
just labeled him like a drifter or whatever. I can't remember. They invalidate
her about about Reese in some way shape or form and like really focused on
Arnold. Yeah, but it's still like picking and choosing from the situation because
she's someone that, as I'm watching it, like, is clearly just going
through like PTSD if anything. Yes, because like we see multiple times in
the movie, I mean, she has a lot of criterias. She has
nightmares about the events in question and the events upcoming, intrusive thoughts, intrusive
thoughts, fight or flight, and freeze. We see her do a lot
of those. I think we see her do most like all three of those
throughout the movie. Yep. Yeah, dissociates. Yep, that's frankly what
he's calling her on when he's sitting with her. I don't believe she's associating,
and he could see it. You're dissociating right now. He doesn't say
that he could have handled that in a more compassionate way, like we covered,
but she is exhibiting all of the symptoms of PTSD, and to ignore
that as a possible consideration is flat irresponsible. And I wish I would say
it would probably wouldn't be done, but it would be and it has been
and happens to people all the time that we just go like oh, well,
they have all these psychotic symptoms, Like, all right, if you
considered the fact of what going through any of this might have been like for
him, absolutely, and with Sarah. The other thing I wanted to think
about is how on earth do we conceptualize that she's telling the truth, that
this is all real, and the things that she knows about and knows there
happening have been validated by the presence of an actual killer robot yeah, from
the future, trying to kill her. Why. I just can't imagine how
dysregulating you would be in a way that we do not have a diagnosis for.
To know an inherent truth that everyone does not agree with, like the
Twilight Zone effect of like I know something is true and no one else agrees
with me, no one else understands me, no one else gets it right,
Like when you're gonna be like I fucking told you, I told you
this was the truth, and you don't believe me, And every time you
ask me, I have been telling you the truth, but you keep asking
me for what the truth is and telling me that the truth isn't the truth.
But I'm telling you the truth. I don't have another truth, because
that's truth. Well, and also she's stuck in this like unfortunate position where
because she's nailing it for in her worldview, she's prevented the situations from happening.
So even now after this movie, the people in charge quote unquote can
still say like, you're you're a terrorist or something like because it still hasn't
happened. What you're saying has happened, and they'll just you know, chit
chat away all the banana stuff. Well, right, she's been preparing for
the reality she knows is coming, and because other people don't have any context
for it, they assume that all of her behaviors together weapons and rob banks
and steal and do all the things that she's done are based out of illness
instead of based out of reality. Prepping the world is going to end.
This is what's going to happen. It's going to happen on this date,
and this is what's going to be the results of it. If you believed
that, really believed that, and had evidence proving it to you, why
would you engage with normal life with people who are just going about their little
jobs and planning for what vacations they're going to take. When you're like you're
all going to die in six years. Yeah, I don't know. She
hasn't mean going back to like the episode we just recorded everything ever, well
all at once, Like her meaning is very separate from the meaning of the
day to day person. Yea, and yeah, I mean it's making me
think of another movie which we I don't think we've been talked about doing for
this podcast, which I also love. This movie is Twelve Monkeys, and
it's the same thing where Bruce Welts's character knows what's going to happen, tries
to tell people and gets thrown into a mental institution, like an old school
style one too in the nineties, So very similar, very similar, because
it's is a wild like you're saying, but it's a wild context to really
like wrap your head around. I did have a supervisor once when I was
brand new to the field who did tell me I think she believed in like
ghosts and stuff. So when she was prepping me about like clients would work
with that, like saw things, she would always belit you never know,
maybe they are seeing something. And I think about that all the time.
And I was like, all right, well that's and I mean I've encountered
clients who very much believe in spirits and ghosts, and for some clients that
I have, it's culturally appropriate to do so because it's how they explain things
within their culture. And it's across several cultures. It's not just like you
can figure out which one I'm talking about by subtext. I'm not going to
give that to you. But it's several cultures and it happens. It's common
for people to believe that they see people after death, that that spirits visit
them, or that spirits are part of their life, and or ghosts whatever,
all kinds of things. And who am I to say what's true.
It's been a phenomenon that's been reported across human existence since forever. So I
think the point of supervisors telling us those things and reminding those those is that
even though we have these fancy educations, it's important to listen to clients because
even the most fantastical story is that we hear might be the truth. Yeah.
Also, I think because you believed in ghosts, my supervisor and as
Hannah as Hannah nos, I have a deal with the spiritual world, which
is I'll crack the stirt eye open, but I ain't say no ghosts,
So I guess that means I also believe in ghosts definitely. But I was
raised Catholic, which I think what you're speaking to, Ben, that is
a culture in which you are. It is normal to believe in the spirit
world, to believe in angels, to believe in ghosts, to believe in
like Wuiji board demons off like you supposed to not do any of that stuff,
But that is I think people think like it's a far fetched thing,
that kind of stuff. Yeah, and they think we're talking about like indigenous
people or like what i've But like Catholics, Christians, a lot of a
lot of mainstream religions believe in stuff like that too. Just because it's normalized
and they made you know, CBS shows called Touched by an Angel, it
doesn't mean that it's another version of believing in the supernatural that is very normalized
and culturally handed down. Or aliens, you know, Oh yeah, I
watch enough. I watched enough episodes of ancient Aliens in a row, babe,
and I am fully convinced. I've been to a lot of I've been
to a lot of those sites. I am not convinced in the slightest that
that was not done by human hands. Oh, yes, so, and
the locals they're very much detest that viewpoint. They detest it, particularly in
Peru they were. I mean, they show you the tools, they show
you the handiwork I got, you know, some of those things that they
showed where the work is so precise, precise, Like I accept a little
more of the argument, but on a lot of those things when you actually
go to the site like I've been to. Is this you introducing? Is
this you introducing a side post podcast you're going to do about aliens? You
know, I'm more more on team that it's disrespectful to the accomplishments of ancient
civilizations in people's heritage than it is attributing to aliens, and that I don't
I don't like that. I get why they were upset with it. I
didn't ask them stupid questions, but that you could tell since that show came
out. Oh, I'm more on teams of that goofy guy, Giorgio with
his goofy hair, where they the memes somebody made of him. Why is
water clear? Because aliens are color blind? Oh? My god, because
aliens. But recognizing that, yes, these cultural values sake, Santa Ria
exists in people that are Catholic and that has some very different beliefs. Voodoo
is believed by a lot of people, and who are any of us to
tell people what's true and what's not, especially if perception is reality. And
also supernatural has existed throughout the supernatural experiences have existed throughout human history. So
for clinicians, it's important to remember that how someone interprets something is still real
to them, and it's disrespectful of us to assume that that's psychotic. Yeah,
because I think how it would more present in this movie is if I
was working with John and he told me all about this stuff. Yeah,
I would have to keep in mind like who raised him, right, you
know, and what beliefs was he raised within instead of like trying to poo
poo him as an adult and kind of be like that's silly, you know.
Also because in this situation where he might feel really tied, like defensive
of his mom because of the situations they've been put into by the government and
the state and stuff, right, which would be really hard. But I
think just want to hit like I'm sure you two and anybody else as a
clinician on here has had clients tell them some absolutely tragic, heartbreaking stories of
abuse or horrible events that have happened to them that don't even sound like they
could be real and as sure as shit were. Yeah, yeah, And
I think that's the other part where I have a problem with the way they
demonstrated the mental health sided this is that they did not at all show any
difference to just because it doesn't sound real doesn't mean it can't be. Now,
granted, there's a line. So the amount of cover up they make
sure that we are shown that governments and private companies did to cover up the
existence of terminators that there was very much proof of. That's a you know,
camer knew what he was doing when he wrote that script of goll like,
and we're going to make sure that we show corporate overload, overlords and
governments conspire to suppress people's stories of things that are scary for the general public.
But that shit's real too sometimes. Yeah. So looking at like the
number of conspiracy theories and government that are absolutely wild, but some parts of
it are true. M hmmm, Like what's the what's the study that Stranger
Things is all based on the Montauk project years or have I read some about
that? Yeah, bet your bottom dollar right when what's what's Montauk is one
word for it? What's the other one? I think it's where it took
place. Is Montauk, New York with an agent something or other or something?
But I'm googling on right now where they would actually study. They were
legit studying psychops and the impacts of pellucinogens on people. M like, those
things are real, so they don't sound real, but they were. It
was called the mont Talk Project. It's conspiracy theory of government projects conducted at
Cape Hero Camp Hero. It's not the word I'm thinking of, but no,
I was like, I ate that ship up. One thing you need
to know about me is a kid. Is if there was something about conspiracy
theory or about ghosts haunted Ohio, if you will where I'm from. I
was eating it up. I couldn't get enough of the occult section of my
local library. And I'm also scared of robots, which I think I've brought
up before. Yeah, I think you have, you have, But I
mean just kind of closing the loop on Sarah. I mean, we see
a lot of the trauma I think a really good example too of the trauma
is one of the scenes at the end where she go when she goes to
Dyson's house and she's trying to be like a big bad terminator type and she
sees his wife and his son, And I think that's re traumatizing for her
of seeing herself elf be the abuser in a situation that was so similar to
her situation, right, and she crumbled like she literally like almost when catatonic,
like hit the wall, fell down the wall and just kind of stayed
there until John and up. Yeah, the acting she did was was great
on that that that like freeze response that look did. Yeah, she's a
few of those, like when they're when they find her at the hospital initially
and she's on the ground, like she freezes there and freaks out when it
comes out of the elevator. Like it's interesting because that's the thing she's really
scared of. So when those moments with like the two one hundred is that's
when she like freaks out and and runs and freezes. Yeah, but in
every other situation where I think she feels more confident, I'm assuming because of
the skill she's acquired, then she's in a fight mode with those which makes
sense when you think about, like we've talked about before, like trauma responses
can all so be influenced by your how competent you feel like you can get
out of the situation or fight through the situation. Right, Yeah, And
so I think you see her she's a good example of how you're never just
one like because people do that as well. It's like they talk about it
like it's a personality type like I'm a I'm a fighter when I'm trying,
you know what I mean, I'm a It's like it depends you can between
them. And so that movie does a good job of showing that she's not
just one of those things. Yeah. Right, she doesn't just go into
she's not all fight, all fight, all fight. Yet she does have
more realistic responses, like when she's confronted with the things she's actually terrified of,
she doesn't respond with the way she's rehearsed it in her mind. Yeah,
but that's four million times that is real. That degree of fear.
The last time she saw the face of Arnold the two one hundred was the
scariest moment of her entire life. Yeah, and to have that again,
no matter what you've rehearsed, but particularly to encounter it in such a vulnerable
position. She rehearsed that with I will always be armed, I will always
have weapons, I will always be these things. She did not rehearse that
mentally with her being barefoot in a mental institution, wearing like the softest clothes
imaginable yea, like no coverage and unable right at that point in time,
carrying a tongue far like, what are you going to do against a robot
with a wooden stick? Yeah? I mean his name was shoes on.
Nope. And so her response to that, given that situation was incredibly well
done. And I'm glad that she had that part because Linda Hamilton struggled with
mental health herself. She was diagnosed it by polar and her forties, and
her family had struggles with it too, and mental health is very real for
her. So heart depicting it accurately I think was something she did a phenomenal
job of. All right, well we'll take another break here and then we'll
talk about John. All right, So John is I think the first thing
I noticed is he is he is a surprisingly resilient kid. Yes, like
he's actually very grounded given all the stuff going on at his age. You
know, he's very adaptable. He does roll with things. He's very empathetic,
personable, all the things that he doesn't have those responses that we've been
talking about, Like he runs away, but that's probably that seems like normal
kid behavior if nothing else even and he follows his training, Yeah, and
he follows his training, but he doesn't have he doesn't operate like like someone
with PTSD the way that Sarah does no correct which I find very interesting.
I don't think John would hit PTSD. I could see well being raised that
environment with a mom who's like, well, you're decently telling you horrible things
are going to happen, and then chaking you around a bunch and being around
people who are like heavily militarized and stuff like that, though they seem very
communal, right, But John wouldn't have had something dramatically taken from him,
except when his mom gets taken, which seems to have happened frequently. Yeah,
it's happened off and one, but other people like contesting her reality.
I don't know if PTSD would be the direction, Like it's possible, but
he definitely doesn't present with it. Yeah, well, I feel like and
even we hear him say, I just thought that this was normal behavior.
I thought this is what families were like like this, like in these places
where you have to make sure that you have weapons and you have to make
sure like somebody might be after you. And like he says that, so
he has and he just thought that that was normal, right. So the
only time that he finds out it's not normals when he's in foster care,
but he doesn't. He does seem resilient. He also seems very much independent,
like he really doesn't need anyone else, which I think makes a lot
of sense for a kid in his position. Um m hmm, yeah,
which can be something like is a product. Sometimes when I've worked with kids
who have been bounced around a lot from caregivers to caregivers, is they can
have a very um I always get these words mixed up. Is it disinhibited
or hit inhibited when you're like more ms pulled away from others. Disinhibited would
be people who engage inappropriately. So he is like, so like when I
would work with kids who had gone through a lot of like bounce around,
you know, caregivers of like that, like sometimes we would be monitoring like
do they him and are they like too far on one spectrum or the other.
But he doesn't seem like he's very like on the inhibited type either,
because he does have relationships like his friend, and then he does like he's
very loving towards those people at um that they go visit, that family they
go visit. It's kind of like South. Let they go South, which
is seems like they had a very loving relationship with him too, very familial
and um and the way he gets attached to Arnold. But I think one
thing I wanted to point out talking about John is right away you see that
he's a kid who is very savvy, very street smart, if you will,
like way more than street smart, criminal smart. Like the I remember
thinking that atm thing he doesn't think any of the movie was like some of
the coolest shit. Yeah yeah, right, like I need that machine man
money, money, money. And also that was just a good callback good
story writing, yes, because like then they brought that back later in a
in a clincher moment. So just from a storytelling perspective, like it was
very good. Um. And also I think when I used to work.
I just can't look, couldn't let that go. Sorry, it was just
okay, see there's a model one oh one of a T eight hundred.
What okay? But I think when I used to I used to work in
partial hospital programs with kids who had been in foster care a lot, kids
who had dump involved like gang violence and and just lived in like harder positions.
And I think something I had to learn really quick as someone who's raised
pretty sheltered and pretty like be quite honest like suburban white environment, um,
was how to not be so shocked not basically not like pool like a shocked
like sheltered like country girl face when kids, because I'd work with kids who
are like nine to n eleven his age who would talk about shooting a gun,
having a gun, you know, um, knowing people who have done
heinous crime, like really severe crimes and and it just being like rolling off
their back like not a big deal. And when I first heard done that
work, I'd be like, oh my God, like you know, I
could see the shock on with the other interns faces or whatever. And I
think something I had to learn really quickly and that my colleagues who had been
doing it for longer than me. Is just like it's just very normalized.
Like we were saying, like, you know, this kind of behavior,
it's it's not because this kid's antisocial or they're a little baby criminal or a
little baby psychopath or like all the horrible judgmental remarks people can make. It's
just like this is life for him. It's like it's it's just normal.
It's like going out to like play baseball, you know. And so to
treat them, to judge them as if there's something almost like bad seed,
like abnormally wrong with them because they engage in this kind of behavior is well,
it's just you know, usually racist, but like it's just very um
uninclusive, you know. And so I think he's actually a very good demonstration
of normalized criminal behavior. Um in a very young person, like he's ten
tens crazy young. He seems like he's more like twelve thirteen. Yeah he
does. He's the way he's ruding that dirt bike and stuff. Yeah,
but um to be ten. But I, like I said, I've worked
with kids as young as him that have lived more life than I had lived
by the time I was twenty thirty. Oh, more life than you live.
Now yeah, yeah, some of these kids out here and what they've
been through, it's it's unimaginable. And also like ignoring the way they've been
socialized is chronically ignored in case conceptualizations. Yeah, where people who come from
survivalist mentalities, or people who are taught how to live on the land,
or people who come from military families, people look at that and go like,
wow, that's fucked up. Their parents are training them that their parents
also live that reality, and they're training them from the standpoint of the world
they understand, which is what all parents do. And it's one of those
things. Yet again where which way is right, Well, it depends on
which context we're looking at it through. If this is somebody who might be
living a life in the country far away, like yeah, they might as
a matter of survival, need to use guns at the age of ten or
start learning how to shoot, or that's just part of the culture there,
and it doesn't mean that they're a little criminal. John's world is different because
he's being brought up amongst survivalist people and as he details and Sarah I think
details and some of her monologues like she attached to people who are these survivalist
jobs. I think that's John's words. I think he might say something like
that, But she also said, oh maybe he said it too, that
she would pick dudes like step fathers pretty much based on their ability, like
the skills they could bring to the earth. To John, Yeah, and
she wasn't really picking men who would be like good fathers for him. That's
like neither here nor there, right right, And so if you think about
that, that's the background he's been raised amongst, you know. I think
they do a good job of in a little way showing that, like the
fact that when the elevator, when the liquid terminator is piercing down on them,
she runs out of gun Amo and t like instinctively hands her another magazine
as if he was counting the shots almost and knew a suit like. She
didn't ask for it, She didn't even signal any more bolts. He does
instinctively knew she's out, she'll be out. Here's another one. And I
think that movie does a great job of those tiny moments that I think would
be very like you would see in real life with a kid like him.
Yeah, And so you just have to keep that in mind when working with
a kid. Like him that that's just part of their living situation, and
you don't have to You just don't have to treat him like he's like like
whoo, like very like like wild or poo pooing it, or just like
really othering him about that stuff. You'll get nowhere if you do. Yeah,
you can't untrain somebody the way that they've been trained, not quickly anyway.
Particularly if you get kids that come out of the cults or kids that
decide that they're going to leave a plain religion or something like that, You're
it's going to take quite a long time to let them figure out that the
rules of life are different in a different version of society. But it doesn't
mean that they have to give up all of their skills, all of their
identity, all of the things that they're good at, all their resources in
order to be good enough for the new environment. And oftentimes a lot of
pathologizing is done of one viewpoint or one way of life that it limits the
child's excess who is leaving that life voluntarily or not to have resources and things
that make them feel good about who they are, that makes them them feel
they're not good enough, and they'll likely seek to get back to a place
where they are accepted and treatment goes better when they are encouraged to share what
makes them them and not shamed for being different. Because you can definitely see
the way that his foster parents regard him is they definitely have that he's a
little criminal energy towards him, and they've very much decided what kind of person
he is already. Yeah, horrible foster parents in my opinion, ye know,
because I think you're bringing up a great point, which is when you're
thinking about a kid like John, you have to almost think of it like
culture, like a culture change. Yeah, And so what you're doing is
you are asking him to radically assimilate and then you're punishing him for not knowing
how to do that. Because I think what's different about John than even the
kids that I used to work with is the kids I used to work with
for from down the way, Like they were in the neighborhood I was working
in, so they were still had a lot of like quote unquote normal situations,
like they still be going to church or the school or whatever. You
know what I mean. John is the kid, like I think, cult's
actually a great way to think of him is like he has been separate from
society, yeah, cibilization for most of his life. And so the idea,
and I think a lot of people do this, a lot of adults
do this, which is you can just pluck them out and put him somewhere
else and then just expect them to roll with it and then judge them when
they can't. Yep. And and I think what I try to do where
we would try to do with someone like John is like you were saying,
Ben, like utilize their strengths because he is smart as shit, Like,
yeah, he is smart, he is resourceful, he's clever, and he
seems like he works on his bike, like he's very mechanically smart, like
his genius a little bit genius in a lot of ways. And so there's
so much opportunities to take a kid like him and take him to like a
mechanic shop, you know, or like have a hobby with him that you
would do with him, and really pump up his strengths to make him feel
more invested in, more invested in the society that you're asking him to assimilate
into. Because you're right, Ben, like you're going to force him to
assimilate you're going to judge him for not being able to disinherently do it,
and then you're gonna be shocked when he wants to go back to the place
in which he feels connected and empowered hour and also like smart and accepted and
accepted. Yeah, and people does all the time. I talk all the
time with adults about like we have to stop projecting our experience, our adultness
also onto other people, especially children, and then punish them for it.
And that's definitely see what the little snippets of his foster parents like, I
wouldn't be shocked of, like that's what's going on his household. Yeah,
they do not understand him. They don't want to understand him. No,
they don't. They don't. They want to see him in the way that
they've got him put in a little bit in a little pocket, and they
want to let that be simple and easy. And unfortunately that happens to kids
that have been in difficult situations that encounter mental health and police world and any
other part of the system right like be it foster care or social workers at
school. Sometimes people refuse to contextualize where these kids come from and allow it
to be a complex viewpoint, and they just decide that's who this kid is
that they're Nope, there's like all these other little criminals out here, and
you're like, well, hold on, John's story so much deeper than that.
But even the little criminal kids things that people make up, like,
it's extremely rare to find people that actually have conduct disorder, like a genuine
bad seed omen type character, right, Like, it's really rare. What's
usually much more and of an accurate viewpoint is somebody is angry, somebody is
hurting, Somebody is struggling to get their needs met and doing it in the
only ways that they know how to keep themselves safe and have their needs met,
and they don't trusting because they've watched things go bad and then sometimes they
end up turning to people who they believe will keep them safe, which can
go tragically. But for people to just assume like, no, these are
little psychopaths, like well, hold on, Well, also to the situation
like John, I would assume that he was not He was not raised by
a typical parent and they weren't Sarah Connor, and he wasn't raised with like
a parent child dynamic. So also like how frustrated his foster parents are with
him. I'm like, this is not a kid who is used to listening
to a parent, yeah in that way and just being compliant. And then
also, what is making your bed? What is cleaning after yourself? In
the world in which he was raised, Like you were saying earlier, like
about Sarah, like that stuff is meaningless to her, So of course I'm
sure it's meaningless to John. Yeah. So then you're punishing him on things
that he never even took into consideration as important. And then you're not thinking
about the fact that this is a kid who's probably not used to obeying adults
in that very traditional sense. I am sure that he was raised by I
mean, if he's Sarah's raising him to be a commander, and she's also
raising him to believe that he is this leader. Right, So also,
why would he listen to adults of him Jesus well not but adults who don't
ye, who aren't in the know. Yeah, like you guys are all
going to die. And it's like when you see people who are part of
religious cults and go like, well, I don't need to take you seriously
because you're all going to hell anyway. Sarah also has PTSD. Yeah,
so she's also raising someone out of fear and raising him to be to live
through anything. Yeah, in a very specific way, and so he hasn't
had It's kind of surprising. I don't know what you guys will think about
this, but in some ways, it's kind of prising that he doesn't have
like attachment disorder stuff. He would feel like a kid who would be diagnosed
with RADICAL with not radical, is it? Yeah, noo, I'm thinking
of RAD, which is a reactive attachment disorder, which would shorten his RAD.
I think a radical. Yeah, you're right, like he does.
I mean, I guess specially especially if he is if his caregiver has changed
that often. Yeah, but also if he learned had to learn to rely
on himself at a very early age, that might be why he is the
way he is. Maybe. I don't know, what do you think?
I mean, I think it's I used to work with a lot of kids
that would get diagnosed with RAD, and so I don't know. We talked
about this with Matilda as well, in that I think some kids just are
naturally resilient and they can kind of get out of the situation without RAD.
I would say some of the things he displays that are rad ish is how
quickly he gets attached to the Arnold character. Yeah, you know, and
that would that's something that I would see with kids with rad where they would
be like tell me they loved me within like an afternoon, yeah, and
like want to hug me and be up all on me, you know.
Um, and I was a stranger. And but I would say, I
think what feels different in the movie of it all is that this is a
heightened situation. Yeah, And so like I don't even want to share because
also he just seems I think he feels because what he does feel for me
is just like a typical kid, and that he just so very much wants
a parent who just takes care of him. Yes, and he wants it
so much to be Sarah. And if it can't be Sarah, then maybe
it can be this guy. And and not and like I said, not
in a way that feels like uncomfortable. Yeah, um. And he doesn't
seem to be like pushing people away, Like we don't see a lot of
his dynamic with his foster parents, but that's hard to judge because they also
seem like assholes. And so yeah, he could very much just be reacting
to living with a bunch of assholes. Yeah, and so we don't know
what he was like in his other foster homes. He seems very loving towards
those people that, like I said, that family that they meet to get
weapons, So he doesn't seem like a kid who is lashing out to like
or like pulling away. Yeah, because even in the situations with Sarah,
he just wants her to be his mom. And there's so many great little
moments as well. It's amazing that they just found this kid at like the
Boys and Girls club down the street from where they filmed, or in the
area, like he's a local with no acting experience, because he plays such
a good job of like being you can see in his face, like in
the moment in the car when he thinks that she's hunging him because she misses
him and she's scared for him, but really he starts to clock right away
because he's very savvy that she's checking him for wounds, because she's doing that
thing she does where she goes into that you are the top priority mode.
It's a it's an ironic sort of thing where she's so idolizing of him.
And everything is so centered around him, and yet it's in this detached way
where he's actually ironically not getting what he needs from her. Yea, even
though everything, everything she's doing is about him, because it's not really about
him as a kid, though it's about him as an adult. She's not
seeing him as a child, She's seeing him as his future self, and
so she's checking him for wounds because she wants to make sure that the future
him is safe, not him now right, And he has an emotional reactions
instantly, and he knows that he can't be emotional with her or vulnerable with
her, so he turns around. He starts to cry very quietly, and
he says he's fine, which I'm sure he's done a million times before.
He seems like a kid that is always getting his hopes up about her.
Yeah, And he feels a lot like kids I used to work with who
had parents who are struggling with addiction, where they he would be in groups
that I'd run or they'd work with me individually, and they would be like,
I don't know why my mom or dad can't stop doing drugs for me,
and this gets their heartbroken over and over again. He seems like that
kind of kid where he gets it, like intellectually what's going on, because
he even says like she's a loser, she's crazy, Like he seems to
have absorbed that information and trying to roll with it. I don't think he
believes that. I think he's trying to, which I think that's also part
of I think his resiliency, Like I think he's trying to live. Yeah,
but you can say like he wanted to he's disappointed by the guy she
would hook up with, you know what I mean, And he was disappointed
in her that he finally found a guy that he liked that wasn't nice to
him and taught him things like normal stuff, and he goes and she did
a regular nut job stuff and pushed him away. And so he is still
just like a typical kid in a lot of ways of just wanting consistency,
wanting his mom to be available to him, and wanting his mom to be
with him now yeah, not in the way not be preparing him for this
future. Yeah, And so in a lot of ways he feels very grounded
to me, and like I said, like very resilient. Yeah he is.
Then you see it with kids who come from situations where a parent is
so fixated on their potential to be some version of themselves in the future,
like you're going to be a doctor or you're going to sports. Parents are
among my least favorites. I was going to come out with that Sometimes sometimes
kids are you going to make it? Other times you're giving up a whole
lot of life in childhood and parental sanity, in your weekends, in your
mornings and everything to foster this identity that isn't acknowledging the reality of statistics.
But their kid could be an olympian. Ben goddamn it that there are thirty
professional baseball teams with twenty five players and that's it, and that's it.
But looking at the way those kids are raised, they're fostering this entire identity
and they just want their parent to view them as a kid. They want
their needs met, and their parent is looking at everything of like an investment
or a no, you're gonna you're gonna make it, and you're gonna be
a pitcher in the big leagues and you're gonna be the one pitcher that gets
that like three hundred million dollar contract, and you're gonna be able to take
care of the whole family forever you have generational wealth, and they go like,
I'm a kid right now, and like my feelings are hurt and kids
can't stop being that, but parents who are so fixated like Sarah, I
can't see it and it is damaging and it is hard to see when kids
step away from that, how much those messages still impact their sense of self
even when they step away from good or bad versions of that that It is
a challenge. And I think you see John's resiliency that he's going to keep
moving his life forward no matter what's happening. But at his core, he
still wants his mom. Yeah. I think going to what you were saying
too earlier about him being raised with a parent with PTSD, I think that's
real because in the very end of the movie, well one of the end
scenes without the dice in household and she's catatonic and she's upset, she's like
weeping. He comforts her, and that felt like something that's happened before.
Yeah, it did, and I think that is I think I think he
feels mostly like a kid who's being raised by a parent who is ill.
Yeah, and maybe Nils on the R word, but just suffering from mental
health diagnosis. And and I think with kids like that they can present very
well, which I think he does for the most part, but then they
can grow up with anxiety, you know, people pleasing kind of like hyper
vigilance kind of stuff where they if you if you raise having to take care
of a parent, that you don't just shake that as you get older.
Yeah, you know, I work with adults where I have to talk where
we have to work on like that kind of codependent kind of energy because they
were raised by a parent who needed them too much or needed them inappropriately,
And so then as an adult they have a lot of anxiety about like if
they have a partner, Like every time their partner is having a hard day,
they're like stressed. Yeah, and because there's no trust that their person
in their life can take care of themselves. So if someone in my life
that I love is having a hard time, it's my problem to have to
figure out. Yeah, Or you have to be you know, hypervisional like
I said, where you have to be hyper aware of the moods of people
at the house, which I'm sure Sarah, if nothing else, I'm sure
she's moody as shit. Yeah, and I'm sure he like as soon as
he hit the living room or wherever they were staying, I'm sure he was
taking the temperature yeah, of the room of course, which makes a kid
that's very savvy as well, Like I think absolutely, Like I think he
feels like a really savvy kid, and I think he'd be a kid that
would unfortunately either be judges like a little criminal like we said, or a
kid that wouldn't be given as much help as he needed because he has acclimated
quote unquote so well. Yeah, and then as he get older, this
stuff would pop up and then that kind of thing probably, I think the
other thing I want to talk about with John and look at but we should
probably take a break before we do that. So maybe we'll do that first,
right with someone like John. John, we talked about it a little
bit, but John chose a remarkable treat into training throughout this film particular,
I guess the reloading, but you see that the reloading things take place when
they're on the highway chase, any of the car chases in particular, Like
Sarah and John have a set cadence and rhythm that they have rehearsed and once
the danger gets validated as real. Everything Sarah ever told him was the truth.
All of this, like anger and frustration with her that he had left.
Yeah, he was compassionate and empathic towards her. He had some anger
and disappointment with her, but a lot of that like she's a loser,
like that stuff never returns for him. And well, he is tense.
I'm sure he's also just so happy to be with her whatever contexts. He's
also getting shot at. Yes, So Survivors is turning on everything she's ever
trained him for. Now he's no longer questioning any of it. Yeah,
And he's retreating full on into the identity she trained him for. And we
see his resiliencies show in ways that happen to soldiers because we forget that these
soldiers that we train, we send them for training when they're somewhere between sixteen
and nineteen years old on average. So grim it's the truth. It's the
truth. And these people sometimes then go out and get deployed to combat situations
and they have to retreat into training much the same as John does. That
the danger is real now and you're either going to live or or not.
And here are set things we have taught you to do when the danger happens,
and right now you don't have time to think about anything else, So
you dissociate away from all of your needs, all of your age appropriate things,
into a version of you that can survive, and when you have set
resources to follow, training shows up. I talk to people who get shot
at all the time, as a weekly or daily experienced people who either have
been recently shot at or have been recently in dangerous situations, and over and
over all the time they will discuss the retreat into training that happens, the
automatic movements that start to come that you have rehearsed thousands of times. And
you see John and Sarah do that with John is just loading weapons and handing
him back. He's not even thinking about the fact, like m on it,
especially when they're in that like truck and like Sarah's got him behind bulletproof
vests and like she's shooting back. Yeah whatever. I don't know, an
ice truck or whatever whatever that was, I can't remember, but I know
what you mean, like us, the swat truck. Yeah, swat truck.
That's what it was. A swat truck. Yeah. Yeah. And
even when they're being like gassed when you know Arnold's on his like mini gun
scene of like just like lighting up the entire Los Angeles PD but hurting no
one, following John's orders firing weapons that shoot two thousand rounds a minute.
It seems difficult to achieve, but looking at how well we see this ten
year old, just go like, Okay, when you're being shot at,
you take cover, you reload weapons, you hand them to mom. You
don't do anything that puts yourself at risk, but you contribute to the battle
effort. And I think that's a really important point to consider when you're talking
about the need to validate people's identities when they found strength and resources. Maybe
his mom probably has given him positive feedback and he had positive relationships with her,
developing that rapport that's mountaneously emerging when the actual situation is trained for emerges
that even if it doesn't or even if it's not real, it's going to
be part of his identity and something that made him feel connected to his attachment
figure. And if you, as a person who's working with him, tries
to take that away, he's going to push back, resistant shut you down,
and listen to a single thing you have to say, absolutely, is
anything else about John before we move on to treatment. All right, we'll
take one more break here, Hannah. Would you like to go first?
Sure, I would love to go first. So in the magical world where
Sarah and John are in my office family therapy, that's the world that we're
discussing at this point in time. And what I think would be really important
is to help re establish the parent child dynamic and and in some ways,
in a lot of ways, that's going to be teaching Sarah how to do
that. Yes, she has not raised a child. No, she has
not a mother. Yeah. I feel like for John, I think he
would already know the role. I think he would also be able to help
Sarah learn a little bit more about how she can be a mom versus a
trainer or yeah, he feels like a kid who could tell her like,
this is what I want from you, yeah as my mom? Yeah,
absolutely, and helping her understand that her role as his trainer has been so
important for such a long time for so many reasons, and really validate why
that has been something that she's experienced, but also that a part of what
John needs from her now is to be able to have a parent that where
he can be a child, where he can experience some of the I don't
know any of the things that are left for him as a child, which
might not be that much, to be perfectly honest, But I think what
would be important is helping them find a dynamic that feels more comfortable for both
of them, because I would imagine Sarah's going to be pretty uncomfortable playing a
mom role only because she hasn't had practice at it, and she hasn't really
for whatever reason. I mean, I think we know all the reasons we've
been talking about them. She won't be able to She just doesn't connect to
John in that way because she's so focused on him surviving and becoming this like
freedom fighter or person. And so I think doing and I think there's all
will be all different kinds of ways to help Sarah and John, and I
think some of them are just engaging in some natural like play of some kind,
but also maybe playing some games together where they can also learn a little
bit more about each other, because I don't think that I think Sarah has
put him in a very specific place in her mind, and I think that
because of that, there might be a lot of parts of herself that she
has not shared with him. That could be more maternal, or that could
be just sharing information about how she grew up or what her experience was like,
or really anything like that. And so there's a couple of different questionnaire
games that we play that I think would be helpful to help them get started
with just learning a little bit more about each other, but also to help
Sarah share that part of herself with John m. Yeah, because he talks
about how he wants to know more about his dad, like his bio dad,
and how he knows that there's more of the story because he catches his
mom crying. Yes, and he's interested in that that's his story too,
And you're right in that she needs to get to know him as a child.
Yeah. Like what he's wearing a Public Enemy T shirt? Does he
know what bands he likes? Yeah? He likes guns and Roses. Okay,
he likes guns and Roses. We've covered this because guns and Roses is
prominently featured in that whole chase scene as m Yeah, he also likes public
does yeah. Yeah. So a question like a question game would be something
that's asking these kinds of questions. But where it's like, what's your favorite
record, what's your favorite movie? What would you do with a million dollars?
What would you like? Very much? Just open ended, like the
curio curiosity. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because she doesn't know him as
a kid. No, that's been moot a moot point, So I think
that's a great point, Hannah. Yeah, this would be definitely. I'll
just pick it back on yours. This would definitely because I think I've talked
a lot about how I would deal with John as a clinician, as a
child therapist, and I think what you were saying, this would be in
a perfect world in which there were no repercussions from the situation legally which they
could be together and there were no like fear around that relationship. They would
be someone that I'd want to have like wrap around services where they'd be getting
a lot of therapy at once, Like yeah, Sarah would beginning own therapy
John and beginning our own therapy. She would probably be getting parent coaching,
and then I think maybe John would integrate into that care. Yeah, because
you're right, like she doesn't know how to be a mom, a typical
mom, and also I think she would need space to process that such like
the family therapy with John. Yeah, and he would need to process.
I mean, it'd be it's just like a wild dynamic. It makes me
think of clench yourself. Then it makes me think of um Daddy Butler and
Bruce Wayne and how we talked about how they would need therapy, yes,
to talk about their dnamic because they've gone they're having such a wild dynamic shift
to give a little kid what he needs, And so Sarah and John need
that too, and she needs to learn how to like unclench like Yeah,
I think I think Sarah, and I think some of the work would be
where I kind of like split them up and talk to them separately sometimes where
sometimes with Sarah we're just going to talk about how to help regulate her emotions
in the moment. I mean, again, in the magical world, she's
already getting individual therapy, and you'd probably be collaborating pretty closely, and I'd
be collaborating really closely with any other mental health providers at that time, and
so and and Honestly, I really feel like they couldn't come to me until
they had both done some work, maybe not necessarily John as heavily as Sarah
but certainly until until Sarah is able to regulate her emotions in some kind of
way. I think, just because it would be so uncomfortable talking about this
part of herself that she hasn't been able to connect to. Yeah, she
hasn't been like a vulnerable because I think what's so different in the first movie
is she's such a happy, go lucky, regular schmegular eighteen nineteen year old
and so to her to have to like go try to like reintegrate that part
of her and be vulnerable and open to him, like that dream she has
where she's like at the park with him, Yes, and she's like loving
on him. Yeah, and yeah, Like there would be a lot of
Kara once ideally, and it would it would be really interesting what she could
tell her. But I think you're right too, Like they would be somewhere
where I would give them like homework, like between this now and this now,
I want you guys to go play a basketball game together, absolutely,
or like go to a movie or like cook a meal. Like you'd give
them things to do, yeah, to build up that dynamic absolutely and not
just be like see you next week. Yeah, give them things that build
a relationship outside of sessions. Yeah, for sure, for sure, I
don't have anything else to say, all right, ben, So when I
was thinking about treatment her for them, when I was in grad school,
I wrote a paper in my existential class on Sarah Connor because I really really
like Determinator franchise in some ways. In other ways, I have some serious
issues so that we can talk about later. But the the thing I chose
existential for Sarah for is because working with her from any other standpoint doesn't make
sense to me, because she knows a reality that I can never as a
therapist reassure her isn't coming. And where my problems I just said I wasn't
going to talk about what the Terminator franchise come in is that there's literally no
reason for her to ever believe that machines a sentient AI that we couldn't even
fathom in ninety one what they can do now. Would ever stop trying to
send people back? Why would she ever believe they'd stop sending things back if
they thought about it once. It's not like they expended all their resources.
The machines could build more machines. The entire premise that they could stop this
is nonsense. It's more likely doom. It's coming for you. It's more
when than if. And working with her from a standpoint of how do you
control what you can control and work on not being in a state of constant
anxiety against everything, but be more fluid and building your capabilities to respond is
the only thing that makes sense to me. And that being said, I
think as a supervisor, I hear this case and go, wow, how
do we factor in prognosis into conceptualization Because for someone that has concretely had her
worldview proven to her that I am in danger and has never varied from then
and never not been in danger really since some day when she was eighteen when
machine tried to kill her and some dude from the future showed up and said,
come with me if you want to live. That how do you factor
in getting getting heard of leave that at any point she's not in danger when
some future a I believe that your child born to you of this dude who
said come with me if you want to live is the future of all mankind.
That's their worst enemy. And the machines don't stop, they don't sleep,
they don't rest, They will never stop coming for you. Yeah,
I mean once your mind has been blown like that, then it's then that's
that's real, like your mind can then you're open to the idea that your
mind could be blown like that again, And it can be and it will
be, as we've seen by the multiple sequels that there is literally no end
to this fight, and the story can be retold in a hundred different ways
and just rewrite itself over and over, which is where it stumbles, and
they go, this idea would be cool, but how do we make it
make sense within the timeline? Well, time travel is a really tricky thing
that nobody can ever get right narratively because it's impossible except for quantum leap,
where they tell it in vignettes and then one thing never connects to another except
that he's the common threat. That's it, and you can only temporarily possess
people to fix them with white white man powers. But looking at the reality
of how you help a client like Sarah, I think the only thing that
you can do is work with her from her standpoint and understand that you're never
going to prove to her that this isn't going to happen, and it's not
going to serve you or her to try because she knows it's it's real.
And the same thing happens when you have clients that struggle with the clinic ord
we have toward is religiosity, where they believe full on raptures coming and they're
going to be part of it, and other people aren't. It's pretty similar
mentality of how do you build up their resilience to get through the things that
are always and true, which is that your death is coming at an unspecified
time. You don't get to pick under the best circumstances, so a terminator
coming from the future to end. It is really no different than the metaphor
people constantly use of what if you get hit by a bus tomorrow, What
if an air conditioner falls on your head, What if you get struck by
a random bullet, what if you get in a car accident. The context
and the scope and the scale I recognize are different when it's you have to
keep your son alive so that the human race has a chance to survive.
But looking at these kinds of cases, it's really important that you recognize what
can be achieved so that you and the client aren't beating your heads against the
wall or they're just leaving the office feeling unserved. You have to stay within
their worldview and offer them how from what they want. And I think Sarah
is such a challenging case because all of it, all of it's real.
So it's like, how do you do counseling with somebody that's got to go
back to an abusive relationship they're not going to leave. How do you counsel
a person who's gonna be living in a war torn country you're gonna see stuff,
or an er doc trying to use police all the time, because that's
part of my world that I counsel police officers, but nurses, er docs.
You think they're not going to see horrible stuff every day? What are
you gonna do, tom No, it's okay. The word's gonna make sense
tonight. Your ship's gonna go okay. And they know that's not going to
happen. They're going to come in with somebody with a two by four sticking
out of their neck and then have to sit with the family that's screaming for
them to help and there's nothing they can do, and that's going to be
there Tuesday. Cases like that, understanding prognosis and reasonable expectations is really important
and communicating with people that you can give them a place to talk, a
place to build a relationship, and then looking at how do you make meaning
of all this? How do you make meaning of your life in this?
And how do you release yourself from the anxiety of trying to control everything and
control me? What you can is about the best thing you can do.
That's all I got. All Right, we'll take our final break here and
then be back for our final thoughts. I don't want to go first.
I'll go first. Um, I like this movie. I hadn't really watched
Terminator movies until the pandemic. I think you were stuck in a apartment with
me. Yeah, yeah, that's when I watched them, So there.
I don't know. It was fun to watch. It was kind of an
amazing portrayal of somebody who has PTSD in a lot of different ways. And
yeah, I just I enjoyed it. So I don't know if I could
promise us that I would watch it again, but I wouldn't be against watching
it again. Yeah that makes sense, that makes sense. I don't feel
like it would be a movie you would watch on your own necessarily. That
might be true, but I don't think it would be like, ooh if
someone was like, can we watch T two? Yeah, yeah, I
agree, and that someone's probably me, probably because I can go next.
It's one of my favorite movies. Yea. I don't know when to become
my favorite movie, because I remember I have a very distinct memory of being
like six when it first came out and being so upset that my father rented
this from the video store because I didn't want to watch some gross boy robot
movie. So I don't know when that tide turned for me and that I
really liked it. But yeah, I've liked it for a long time.
I think just it felt like you know when you watch something when you're young
and you're like, this is a movie, Like you're you start to recognize
cinematic beats. So like the scene in the mall and the gallery, Yeah,
when he's chasing Yeah, when he's running away John and the one terminator
Arnold comes down and he has the flower box and then the other one shows
up. I remember that my brain I was like, whoa, this is
a movie. So I think I just thought of it as like so cinematic,
and it like blew my little mind. So, yeah, this is
one. I have movies. I don't watch it a ton over and over
again, but I do everyone I remember it and then I want to watch
it. So I'm excited we're finally doing it for the podcast. But yeah,
it's definitely a rewatch for me. I love Terminator two. Hell yeah,
I love Terminator two. I always have. UM. I think the
first time I saw it was at a lock in in boy Scouts. We
almost certainly should not have been watching this movie, but because I would watch
like the TBS version of Terminator and Terminator two, and like, holy shit,
do they sanitize the crap or they did in the back then they sanitize
the crap out of it? Like you don't realize how violent, particularly the
first one is. M I've only seen the first one like three times,
which is weird given how many times I've seen the second one. Yeah,
like Bill Paxton gets his like like a fist basically like through his body,
like it's it's bad, and the terminal like carbon is the eye out and
stuff like all this, it's oh yeah, but watching like the real version,
the R rated one on the two, the two vhs with this one.
UM, the strong memories of this this movie. It's just it's so
good. The first one was good, but it's like an eighties horror movie
with lovecrafty and robots, basically other worldly things that are bigger than you.
Like that. But then seeing this movie, this one's so good. It's
just so good. It's always good. It's good every time. It's good
today. The effects are good today. And it's why I won an oscar
because the effects, the special effects were so good. They don't even look
tacky. No, they're not bad, like you're definitely the liquidy stuff looks
it looks very nineties, yeah, but it doesn't look bad, like it's
not laughable. It just looks out of the time, right right, It
looks over the time. It looks ahead of the time even and watching this
one is something that I feel like you can turn this on at any point
in time. It holds up the existential dread of knowing that people won't believe
a doomed future is coming for them, even when it's on their doorstep,
and that people will be actively building towards it. I think that dread is
something we feel now, like watching AI grow now, It's like the number
of times I think in my head when I see people talk about putting guns
on robots. Have you seen Terminatory? Did we learn nothing? Yeah?
Like, I won't even engage with like a snapchat. Just had like this
new AI function where you can talk to an AI, your AI and I
refuse. Yeah, like I do, like in permission, because we're going
to teach the robots how to think like us and then form hunter killers and
robot skeletons that no, you know, I don't know why robots wouldn't build
nanobots to just destroy us from the inside. But anyway, the reality is
that this is a fantastic film. It's going to hold up for years.
It's held up for years, it continues to do so. It's one of
Arnold's finess. It's one of the best performances by a new young actor I've
ever seen. And Linda Hamilton kills it as Sarah Connord. It's such a
switch for her to have turned from like this eighteen year old damsel in distress
to like full on warrior. And despite the problems with the sequels, we
discussed earlier that Terminator three just doesn't exist. Yeah, we don't. We
don't discuss Stricken from the record, it's been stricken. You got the one
with Sam Worthington and m Christian Bale probably deserved more. I like that movie.
M I forgot what that one was called Revelations something like that. They'll
have like revolution something some of them are. I know the remake, the
remake reboot was called Genesis. Genesis was bad, Matt Smith and M Yeah,
that one was. That one was bad. And then Salvation Terminato Salvation,
Salvation, Salvation was good, and then um, Dark Fate, Dark
Fate. I haven't seen yet because I need to either wants you to have
like a movie night, because Hannah wants to watch that one. I did
to return, but like watching so many things, like Sarah Connor Chronicles was
good at first, and it demonstrated a lot of these things that we're talking
about, where like Sarah never does let it go. She never can because
more terminators keep showing up. Are they go to bad? Who knows?
But they keep showing up. And even the one that's good and you know,
ridiculously attractive summer Glow that John falls in love with, because why not?
She never tried it. And I think that's where like the prognosis thing
comes out, is how do you ever trust that anything is what it says
it is if it's coming from the future, so it knows what you did
it you just you can't win. So the mythos like kind of stumbles on
itself when it make it overcomplicated. I really wish, honestly, it would
have just stopped with T two like we won end. Yeah, yeah,
and a little bit like kind of Star Wars of like we won the End.
But Terminator two was an absolute perfect film, and I think I would
watch it one hundred more times. I didn't even have to watch it do
this. I've seen it so many times. All right, Well, we
will sign off there as always. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram,
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