Smoke Signals with Olivia Woodward

00:00:00
Speaker 1: On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef and best start changing it with the Bell Cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie, I have a proposition for a road trip. But there's a twist. Okay, it's the saddest road trip of all time. You know what? That sounds okay to me. I'm in if we went on a road trip, but in the process of the road trip, we faced not just one of our demons, but literally all of our demons and came out on the other side better people. But it's gonna be pretty, it's gonna be it's gonna be a ride. It's gonna be a painful ride, and I'm gonna throw your canteen into a ditch. I'm in, all right, let's do it. I mean, honestly, it'll be worth it. It'll be where that I love it. It sounds like we'll spend some quality time together. We're going to learn a thing or two about a thing or two, that's for sure. Wow, beautiful, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Caitlin Toronte. My name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens. Today is no exception, No episode is any exception except maybe the Human Centipede episode. I would say that was maybe an exception, although that might have been our most feminist episode. Well, it's also the most feminist movie we've ever covered, so it wasn't hard. Like, what did we even say besides perfect movie? End of episode? I think that that's all we said. I think it was a one minute episode. But yes, that that is what the podcast is about. But Caitlin, what the heck hell hockey sticks are? Is? Um? The Bechdel Test, Well, Jamie, I'll tell you. It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Becktel, sometimes called the Becktel Wallace Test, where in our version of the test requires that two people of a marginalized gender have names, talk to each other about something other than a man, and hopefully that's a narratively meaningful conversation. We have an interesting we have an interesting movie in that regard, to we have an interesting movie in every single regard. Today, I'm very, very excited to cover Smoke Signals. Same and that We've got an amazing guest here with us for that discussion. She's a content writer for a tribe called Geek. She's a citizen of Cato Nation. It's Olivia Woodward. Hello. I am so excited to be here now, I mean now we have councy Olivia Woodword. My name is Olivia, and it is so good to see y'all. It is so good. Thank you for being here. This is like a dream. I've been a big fan of the podcast for a very long time, so I'm so excited to be here. And this is like also one of my favorite movies. So awesome, very excited, good, amazing. Tell us about your relationship and your history with Smoke Signals. Yeah, so this is like a classic Native American movie. Everyone in my generation older, I'm not quite sure about younger, but definitely older. All of us have seen this movie. This is like the Native movie, maybe for like the U. S Natives. I can't really speak for indigenous people in Canada, but I know for us we quote I quote it with my best friend all the time. Very quotable movie. Yeah. So this came out in and I was a child. Um, So I don't think I saw this in theaters. I think it was one of those where once it came out on VHS, we all got together at like the community center and watched it as it grew because it was one of the first mainstream Native movies that we all got to see that was made by Native people starring Native people. So and then it just becomes like a yearly movie that you watched, right. Yeah. So Smoke Signals is recognized as the first future length film, written, directed, and produced by Native Americans that reached a wide audience both in the US and abroad. So it's like a very significant film in that regard. Jamie, what is your history with Smoke Signals? Um? I had seen portions of this movie before in high school, I believe. And then also I think I've seen like it's one of those movies that I feel like it's on a lot. We talked about movies like this all the time, like it's it's on TV a lot. I see. I watched it in high school because I had an English teacher that we did a big unit on Sherman Alexei's writing, which I think, I mean was I think for me certainly the only Indigenous writer that we've studied in all of school. Sounds about right right typical American education. Well, you're lucky because we did not discuss any Native authors for I wand so that's may mean, that's really cool to hear that you got that in your school. I think sometimes it's up to the teachers on what they taught, and that was just something we never got in our curriculum. I very I mean in Sherman Alexei complicated figure, um, which we don't have the purview for really in this episode, but like I want to acknowledge that. But yeah, in high school, we definitely read The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fist Fight in Heaven, which includes the short story that this movie is adapted on, and we watched it in class and I remember really liking it. But I haven't like revisited the movie in many years, and um, I'm so glad that we're revisiting this movie. It is such a It's like, there's so many reasons to applaud the director, Chris Hair for the tone that this movie strikes. But for a movie that tackles a lot, it still is such a fun road movie and like you're saying, Caitlin, it's so quotable and it's so rewatchable, and um, yeah, I had a great time watching the movie, and I'm excited to talk about it. What's your history with smoke signals? I didn't have one. This is my first time seeing it. I'm really excited to talk about it. I wasn't expecting it to be as funny as it is. And it's also extremely like you said, Jamie, like strikes this really interesting tone where it's like very moving, very compelling. There's, you know, moments of intense drama, but there's also a lot of comedy, and it's it's just a really interesting fun story. So, um, I guess with that in mind, should we just do the recap and go from there. Let's jump in. Gotta close your eyes though when you do it right, Thomas. Yes, I will be emulating Thomas throughout the recap. Um Okay. So we're on the kurd Aline Indian Reservation in Idaho. It's July n a k a. The bi centennial. A couple Maddie and John, builds the fire is throwing a huge party at their house on the reservation. Then we get voiceover from Thomas builds the fire, who tells us that in the middle of the night after this party, a fire tore through the house, killing the narrator's mother and father, but he was saved. He was a baby at the time who was thrown from a window, and a man named Arnold Joseph played by Gary Farmer catches him and delivers him into the arms of baby Thomas's grandmother. In the aftermath of the fire, we meet Arnold Joseph's family, his wife Arlene, and his infant son, Victor. Arnold mourns the tragedy of this fire by cutting his hair and turning to alcohol abuse, and then one day he gets in his truck and leaves his family forever. We then cut to Thomas played by Evan Adams and Victor played by Adam Beach are now young men. Thomas is He's a sweet guy. He's a bit of an odd ball. He always wears a suit. He has a propensity for telling stories and tall tales. Victor, on the other hand, has a bit of a prickly, cynical attitude. They don't really get along with each other, nor did they as kids. Because we flash back to Thomas and Victor as like twelve year olds, we see a flashback or Thomas tells Victor that he heard his dad, Arnold, had moved to Phoenix, Arizona, after Arnold left his family. Back in the present, or at least um, Victor's mother gets a call from a woman named Susie Song saying that Arnold had passed away and that someone should come to Phoenix to get his stuff. So Victor's trying to figure out how to do this, what exactly to do, and Thomas offers to help him. He has some money saved up and can help Victor get to Phoenix, but Thomas wants to go with him, and he is also like bankrolling the trip to right, Yes, he has a jar of a huge jar of what looks like some like singles, maybe some like five dollar bills, but it's mostly coins. I love Thomas so much that honestly, that could get you a couple of tickets. That's a house face the house. Yeah, yes, uh so Thomas wants to go on this trip. Victor clearly does not want this, but then Victor's mom, Arlene encourages Victor to go with Thomas, basically saying that it's okay to accept help from others. That's what a community does for each other. And she also makes Victor promised that if he does go that he will come back. So then Victor goes to Thomas and says that he will accept his help and that Thomas can come with him. So they set off, first getting a ride to the bus station from a couple of friends who drive their car and reverse the whole time, which is never explained. Okay, it's just kind of okay, I'm not from a reservation, but I have friends and cousins who live on a reservation, and that's kind of a commentary on how there are no real, like functioning cars. Okay, you make deal with what you got. It's like they're basically the quintessential res car. So that's kind of what where that came from? Got it? So they get this ride and then they get on a bus where they interact with a few people, including a gymnast woman from Mississippi and then a couple of racist white men. Throughout the movie, we're also getting flashbacks of different things Victor and his father, Victor and Thomas as kids. Thomas also tells various stories along the way, often about Arnold, how he was a hippie. How he took Thomas to Denny's. Uh. We also see a flashback of Arlene begging Arnold to quit drinking, and that's when Arnold takes off and leaves his family for good. We see young Victor be absolutely devastated by this, and he takes out some of this kind of emotional turmoil on young Thomas. So that's part of their kind of rocky relationship. Yeah. Back in the present, Victor and Thomas finally arrive in Phoenix and walked to Victor's dad's trailer, where they meet Susie Song played by Irene Bdard, who is Arnold's neighbor who had called Victor's mom. So then Susie gives Victor his father's ashes. Victor's like in a rush to leave, but kind of at the insistence of Thomas, they end up staying and hanging out with Susie for a bit. Thomas tells Susie some stories, such as one story about a feast where Victor's mom fed a hundred people even though she only had fifty pieces of fry bread. That's my favorite story. That's the one I will be like and she and You're like you know that's where the story is going, but the way he tells it, it's just so like so cinematic almost, he really sells it, and I am my favorite part of every story Thomas tells us when they cut two whoever he's telling this story to right after he finishes, like this huge climax, and then it like cuts to Susie and she's like, yeah, that was a pretty good story. Yeah. I love when he's telling the story to the two women in the car that only goes backwards and they're like, Okay, what do we what do we think was that a good enough story to like deserve giving you a ride? And the one friend is like, I think it was a great example of the oral tradition. And then they're like all crack up laughing. It's it's so funny. Okay. So then so Thomas is telling stories. We also get some flashbacks where we see Susie and Arnold becoming friends. We see Arnold talking about his past and his family talking about Victor. Meanwhile, Victor is questioning the nature of the relationship that Arnold had with Susie. She said that they like kept each other's secrets. Victor seems resentful that she was close with Arnold, while like Victor, hadn't seen him for years and years. Victors also reluctant to deal with his dad's stuff a k a. Deal with the past um. Susie then reveals that Arnold told her about the fire on that fourth of July, and that it was Arnold who had accidentally started it while he was drunk, and also that he went back into the house to save his infant son, Victor. The Victor thought it was always his mom who had saved him, and Susie also says that Arnold had wanted to go home and return to his family. He never, you know, meant to die in Phoenix, but that's simply what happened. So then Victor finally goes through his father's things, He cuts his hair with a knife that he had found, and then he and Thomas leave early the next morning in Arnold's truck, without telling Susie goodbye or anything like that. Emotions are running high in this car ride, Victor and Thomas started arguing. Victor is saying that Thomas holds Arnold in such high regard even though he was a drunk, abusive liar, and Thomas is saying no, no, no, he was more than that, and you just need to grow up. And yeah, your dad left your mom, but you left your mom also, and your worse because you still live in the same house with her. And then your heart just goes like, oh my own, you're right. But he's so naive and yet so wise. So as they're yelling at each other, they nearly collide with a car on the road that had already crashed. This drunk white man is belligerent. He's trying to blame the accident on Victor and Thomas. Another woman in another car is badly injured, and even though the close this town is twenty miles away, Victor sets off on foot to try to get some help. He's running, he's reflecting on the past. We're getting a lot of images from the fire and just his past. He collapses in exhaustion. He has a vision of his father helping him up, and then we cut to the hospital where Victor is recovering. It seems like they might be in trouble with the law, because this drunk guy is still insisting that the accident was Victor's fault. But then they're released and Victor and Thomas head back to the reservation. When they arrive, they split Arnold's ashes and discuss their plans for laying the ashes to rest. Victor returns to his mother. Thomas returns to his grandmother. There's voice over about from Thomas about how do we forgive our fathers? And then we see Victor pouring out Arnold's ashes in a river, and I think that's is that the last thing we see? That's where that's where I stopped the recap. But I didn't put a period, and I was like, did I mean to write more? And then and then Thomas, you know, there's there's these Thomas interludes, um, and it ends on and Thomas, you know, I would expect no less from him. He really puts a beautiful bow on the story. Yes, I am in love with Thomas. And that's the movie is the movie. So let's take a quick break and then we will come right back to discuss and back, Um, where do we want to begin? Olivia? Does anything jump out to you right away as wanting to start somewhere? Sure? Um, so I guess my well, Okay, the question the first thing I wrote on here to ask both of y'all is which of Thomas's stories was y'all's favorite. M hmmm, this might just be I did love the fry bread like ouran splitting the friebride in half, that might be my favorite. But I also because I'm such a Denny's head and he tells the story about Arnold taking him to Denny's like three different times, I want to say, I love that story, Jamie. You and I just went to Denny's together the utterly yesterday or two days ago, two days ago. Yeah, we loved it. And I yeah, I really liked the Denny's story, partially because it seemed like it was thomas favorite story. Also, um, but I also this isn't thomas story, But I really loved Arnold's story about the basketball game against the Jesuits. Yes, just like the way that the actor like sells the story and the way I don't know, I mean, there's so many things that this movie does so like seamlessly and beautifully that like in the hands of a less capable director, could have seemed so corny or clunky. But like the way that the timeline of this movie is constantly shifting, but it's never confusing, and it's always very fluid and the way that the stories are illustrated in this, like you can tell that there's stories as they're being acted out, and like it's acted out in this like big mythic way, in the way that the rest of the movie isn't. And I just yeah, I just like I love how this movie is crafted. But I really like the basketball story as well. What's your what's your favorite? Olivia? Oh, definitely classic And I don't lie. Me and my my friend will text each other that sometimes, like actually, so that's just the classic among us. Yeah. I always appreciate the way they portrayed the storytelling in this movie because so I grew up with my tribe. I didn't grew up on a reservation. I grew up was known as an urban Indian um because I grew up in the city. But I was so very connected to my tribe growing up. And storytelling is an essential part of our culture, how we passed down our mythologies, our religions are ceremony and in movies that have native characters that are not by native people, the way the native character tells the story is like always stoic and like straight faced, But that is not how we tell stories. That would be boring. We wouldn't do that for thousands of years, right, So I really appreciated how how cinematic all of them were when they were telling those stories, especially the dad. And a part that stuck out to me quite a bit that, of course, like made me think of a million different things, is it's like a flashback and Arnold is talking to young Victor in the car and he kind of goes on a little drunken speech because he's definitely drinking and driving, which is not great. But the part that really stuck out to me a lot is it's the speed tree. He's imagining. It's such a good day. I'm a magician. I can make this disappear. And that's it's that monologue. Also a lot of monologues in this movie too, uh, And the part that really stuck out to me was making the Catholics disappear and going into this movie, you know, when I was younger, it was just a fun movie that had characters that look like my friends and family. But as an adult, I can really see how generational trauma affected my parents and affect my grandparents. And that's like kind of what Monold was, Um, you know, he don't want to be a drunk. But I would assume that he his community was directly affected by residential schools and boarding schools. So I feel like it's kind of a hard thing for me as an adult watching this is hard to ignore, like that it's a big reason why Arnold is the way he is. But yeah, that the speech of the car. That's also another one of my favorite parts of the movie. Yeah, okay, so wait, so you said a bunch things and I want to address a bunch of things there. I have kind of like two general thoughts about the movie. One is that this is such a great example of a movie that depending on the viewer. So, for example, if it's a native viewer, this movie gives them the opportunity to see themselves, their culture, their family dynamics represented on screen in a respectful and meaningful way. If it's a viewer who is I would say probably you're just like average non native person. Gives that viewer an opportunity to see a culture on screen that they might not know that much about, that they probably have some preconceived notions about because of other media that relies on stereotypes and tropes, many of which are harmful and it gives those viewers a chance to learn about a culture from filmmakers who are from that culture. So it's like such a regardless of who is seeing this, it's such a beautiful film. Yeah, it's it's really fun for me because growing up, I only the only other people I knew who saw this film was Native people, and I never pressured by non Native friends to watch it because I just assume they wouldn't get it. But now as I get older, I don't want to say forcing them, but to have a greater you know, to kind of understand me a little bit more. And I'm very passionate about movies and media in general, so to understand me more is to watch Snow singles. So I have been having close non Native friends watch it. So it's really interesting to see the reaction because I guess my worry with this film is that it's not relatable to non Native So it's really nice to hear that it is relatable. And well, that's my other general thought, which is it's it's just a story about two young men who are dealing with very relatable things. They're dealing with generational trauma in vastly different ways. They are learning from each other. They are reconciling their relationship along the way, and it's one of those stories that, yeah, I feel like Hollywood executives would be like, this is too specific. This is about a culture that won't resonate with your average American. Therefore people won't see it, and we can't make money from a story like this. But it's such a universal story about such universal things like friendship and reconciling your past and your present and learning lessons and dealing with family stuff. Both characters have a compelling arc about things that are, like again, very universal and relatable. So even though it centers characters from a specific culture, one that shouldn't matter, and two, it's still such a relatable thing that they're dealing with. The anyone can enjoy this movie. I loved one thing that really stuck out to me with and you'll start to sense a heavy Thomas bias because I just really love and as I was watching it, I remember feeling the same way in high school. You know, like when you haven't seen a movie in a long time, you're like, oh, I was just as like, oh, he's the best in high school. Um, but I really like how again, this movie just like does so much with such a like deft writing touch that would have felt clunky in the hands of a less capable writer director. Um. But the way that Thomas is referencing quite a bit existing media that portrays his culture that is made by white people and is way off the mark. I mean, they're talking about that in the movie constantly. And also it's clear that Thomas is still influenced by that media because there's just so much of it. And I thought, like the conversation that Thomas and Victor have on the bus where Thomas is kind of rattling off all these different depictions of Indigenous people in in like American movies, and he's kind of making fun of it, but but Victors like, oh, you've probably seen Dances with Wolves two hundred times and he's kind of bullshitting. But then Thomas Thomas is like, well, and it just like the movie very like seamlessly addresses how poorly Indigenous people have been represented in the past, and like how little there was in terms of any representation that Indigenous people were included in or didn't center around a white savior or and then and then you know John Wayne's Teeth classic I love that it starts out with them just like improving that song on the bus, and then it cuts to like diagetic on Diagetic music. I never remember which ones which, but it's basically like a song on the soundtrack of this movie about John Wayne's teeth. And I was like, this is comedy gold number one. Just okay. So I don't want to assume anything, but have y'all been to a pow wow before? I have not? Okay, So what they are doing in that moment is, um, what's called like a song. So pow wows their drum groups, and so okay, maybe real quick, I don't want to assume too much of my audience, but a powow is a gathering of native people of all different drives, usually in all the event, and it includes dancing and vendors and socializing. It's really fun. Also there's ceremony involved. We will honor people, will welcome people into the circle, and so there's always drum groups. Um, I know in the South. So also I'm a native from the South and some of the things we do are different than natives from the North. And I feel like to say that because I don't want to make it assume I know everything about all natives. They're over five tribes alone in the US. So, but in the South powells have a southern drum and a northern drum and some drum groups. In order to warm up, we'll do songs and those are like the funny songs and the joke songs. So that way MA can warm up. So that's basically what they're doing. So again, a really fun thing for me watching this movie because I'm like, oh, that, that's really funny. I've already seen that all the time. I love seeing the movie and it's fun to watch it translate to non native people who have never even been to a pow wow and don't even have the context for that. I can still enjoy it the same way. That's so cool. I didn't Yeah, I didn't know any of that. I would love to go to a pow wow. Are non native people welcome? Oh? Yeah, non data people are very much invited to pow wows, like there are certain rules, kind of follow what everyone else does, um and all. It depends again, like where you are, But in general, native non natives are very much welcomed. At power is one of the few Native things that non Natives are always welcomed at and it's also great if you, you know, spend your money there, right, non Natives are very much invited. Um, yeah, and I know there are. There's a really large Native community in um California as well. Um, so I can feel some information I would love on the powers that happened there. But yeah, powers are super fun. That's why, like it's not really cool to be like, let's have a power when you're talking about like a sales meeting, because it's a real especial thing that we do. But back to the conversation on the bus, it's a really fun conversation because again in two Oh my God, we recognize too that they are criticizing dances with Wolves, but natives at the time, like my parents age and my aunt's age, Dances with Wolves was a huge deal because they used actual Native actors. So that's part of the reason why Thomas watches Dances with Wolves so much because at the time that's kind of like all we had and the nights are really interesting. Time in Native cinema is kind of like, um, it's kind of like considered, I guess the renaissance of Native films because while Smoke Signals is probably the most famous. We also got Um Dance Me Outside, which is really well known within the Native community, and Powow Highway. And what I love about all of those movies is that they're funny. You know. Even starting when Natives did participate in entertainment, and I'm gonna go way back to like vog Bowl time, we were always stereotyped as like the noble savage and that's kind of what we got stuck with for centuries basically. And then in the nineties, filmmakers were able to get funding and start showing different parts of being Native and yes, we all do tend to have a shared trauma and a shared history, but we're also really how we get through it. So that was also really exciting too about the nineties and then I feel like there were some movies in between now, but now two we have TV shows like Rutherford Falls and Reservation Dogs, so it feels like we're going back into another Native media renaissance. That is very exciting. Yeah, definitely, hope. So a few thoughts. When Victor is asking Thomas, like you haven't seen Dances with Wolves one two hundred times and He's like, maybe you and Titanic. First of all, exactly saw that coming from five miles away, like they should have seen that. Damn Iceberg, the Iceberg, Right, Okay, we absolutely suck um. What you were just talking about, Olivia in terms of um and I think we've talked about this before on the podcast, especially on I want to say it was a Matreon episode on What We Do in the Shadows, where especially from like studios or anyone who is funding stories by marginalized people, they're always like, well, you're gonna want to do this tragedy porn, right, because that's the only story you have to tell, right, And obviously that's not the case. And you know, there's so many filmmakers who want to explore many different tones and genres and stories and and and I just remember commenting on how I loved that What We Do in the Shadows was a movie by indigenous filmmakers that is just them being silly vampires. So so for for Smoke Signals, it feels even though it's like a lot of aspects of indigenous culture are referenced and are a huge part of the movie, and pretty serious heavy topics are examined, it's not the tragedy porn that a white Hollywood exec would insist indigenous filmmakers to make. So yeah, I feel like it's it's just like another It's it's like something that is so obvious, but whenever it comes to like Mr. Hollywood stuff, it kind of goes back to that discussion where it's like a movie can be culturally specific and really funny and not a tragedy porn, which this movie is like a perfect case study of. One thing that I really love too that was very relatable is the conversation that Victor and Thomas have and Victor trying to teach Thomas how to be a real Indian Um is very relatable, especially as someone who grew up within the city around a lot of non native people. One thing I grew up a lot with is when people saw it. So first off, I grew up in Texas, which if you are brown with dark features, you're Mexican, right, So I grew up not being visually recognized as Native. And then it doesn't happen much anymore. But growing up, when I would tell people as Native, they would be like, well, you don't look Native, and I'm like, what does that mean? Um? So their conversation was fun for me because the elders and that the powers. They would joke and be like, well, you have to look serious all the time. We're serious folk, and then they're like off laughing somewhere about cakes or whatever. But yeah, so I like that a lot because that's something. You know, Native people look different across the continent. So I thought that was a really interesting exploration. Uh, Like, that's something I would want to talk about, is like, what does the native person even look like? What is There's no right way to be natives. There are serious natives, they're silly natives kinds of natives. So I really enjoyed that conversation as well because I feel like it kind of also tells the audience you don't know what a Native looks like, and that's okay. You just have to believe when they tell you I am you know, I'm Native and this is my history. So yeah, yeah, part of that was Victor being like, yeah, you have to look really serious and mean. You have to look mean or else white people won't respect you. And your hair is done up in all these braids you have to take, you know, let your hair loose, and he's like, you know, he's like kind of rattling off different things, and Thomas clearly takes it to heart for a little while because then you see and he's because he's also like, you have to take off that suit. Um. So then in the next scene, what are you talking about? His suit is very cute, his braids are beautiful, but he like he like takes off all that stuff. And I think he only looks like that for one scene because in the next scene he's like back in the suit, he's back in his braids because he's like, wait a minute, I can present anyway. I want myself like also real quick. Since we're kind of talking about the braids, I'm pretty sure the actor who plays Thomas, I'm pretty sure that's his real hair. Um. But Adam Beach, who plays Victor, I don't think that's a wig, especially when off when he cut it. Okay, the wig, Okay, I'm glad to talk because the wig in the last and it's it's hard because it's like that's where a lot of the really really serious moments in the movie are and he's wearing this goofy wig like it's like a party city. They it was a wild it was a wild wig. I usually have a good eye for wigs, not to brag, but I mean, yes, true historically have a good eye for wigs. I wasn't I wasn't thinking wig for most of the movie. But maybe that was just a better wig. But the whatever the end the third act, wig flop. I don't know, because they did him so dirty. I don't know, I know why they did that. He was like, I mean, the acting in this movie is incredible, and to be undercut by a bad wig is just not nice, especially during the emotional like peak of the movie too, just when you forgive the sins of your father and you're wearing that wig like a Karen wig. He's got a bomb um. I was actually wondering if you would speak to the significance of hair, because it gets referenced in the movie, because there's the part at the beginning where it's mentioned that Arnold mourned the fire by cutting off his hair, never growing it back. That we have the scene where Victor's telling Thomas to take his hair out of his braids because quote, an Indian man ain't nothing without his hair, and then when Victor is like really finally like coming face to face with his past, and he's going through his father's belongings and kind of reconciling all that. He almost seems to like ceremoniously cut off his hair. So yeah, just if you could speak to the significance of that, of course. Yeah, I actually wrote down notes on that um so hair. And again I can't speak for every nation, but one thing that a lot of nations do share is relationship to our hair. It's considered kind of an extension of your I mean caticl it is, it's like an sension of your skin. So it's another way of kind of feeling the world around you. So the different hairstyles can mean different things, but in general, whenever someone in your family dies or someone close to you dies, you you cut your hair um to kind of help with the morning process. So it's kind of like because the hair is kind of like an extra sensor to the world, and so whenever you're sad, it's becomes more sensitive almost, so you cut it kind of help process everything. And then with the new growth is also helping like you not only move on, never really move on to my one's death, but to kind of like branch into your new life with your new hair. It's like a very symbolic thing. Yeah. Yeah, and within most indigenous nations and tribes, hair is not does not equate gender like at all. Maybe certain styles might, but having long hair does not equal feminine or masculine really, which was a very weird thing for me growing up, um whatever, Like all these non native boys would grow up their hairs and being like rebellious and I'm like, okay, well you're barely washing it. So I don't know really saying anything, but because with native boys, native boys, native men take usually take really good care of here, the same way you know most women are expected to. Um. But yeah, So one thing I noticed too in the movie is that Arnold basically never lets his hair grow back out, um, And I think that symbolizes his continuing morning and also his continued guilt. Right. Yeah, that's kind of the symbolism of the hair, is that it's basically an extension of us. I was wondering that about Arnold because that I think that either it's Thomas's narration or Victor points it out that his that his dad never grew his hair back and that being a significant that's thank you for for sharing that, and and and then it's like that. I guess that is that screenwriting is at the end of the second act. But when when Victor finally cuts his hair and kind of that simbolizes that he's accepted his dad's death to some extent. I mean, I think someone here has a master's agree in this right. I would never mention it, but I do have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. I wasn't really examining the movie through a structural point of view, but yeah, that does feel around the end of the second act. Yeah, yeah, before we move on to the second act, I just or past that. I do just want to recognize the anties and the car. They're so iconic and again adding to how funny we are. Yes, um, oh my gosh, I just I love them so much. I just wanted to give them more attention real quick before. I mean, they deserve all the show. Let's let's talk about that, because I wish that I was one of the only Because also, this movie is so like economical in the way it tells the story, like it's a tight ninety minutes. But I was I was kind of hoping that they would come back again. I was bummed. I mean, although it's like the story reaches such a perfect full circle where you see them return home, you see Victor give Arnold ashes to our lean, you see um Grandma reunite with Thomas. I love how much they look alike. I just I love them. But I was just hoping that we would see the two women in the car again and get one more radio station shoutout because I loved the radio station sequences are so funny. There's so many fun motifs. Yeah, the traffic slash weather report on KRAS radio. Loved that. Love that, like fry bread is a motif in the movie. Love that. Denny's is a motif in the movie. Love that, Just like Thomas telling a story to anyone who will listen, and sometimes to people who don't want to listen, and then always Victor saying, you're full of ship. That's not what happened. They're Also, this movie is like just chock full of well known Native actors and well known Native people. So the radio host is named Alex Trudel, and he's like a really well known poet in the Native community, so it's always really fun hearing him. And then almost all the actors have gone on to do both Native Native projects and all native projects. The Father Arnold. He is a reoccurring character in Reservation Dogs, and he is so funny. Adam Beach is probably the more well known name from this movie. I think the most recent big project he was in that I can think of right now was Suicide Squad from a few years ago. Yeah. I was about to say he's like Mr Superhero. Yeah. Um. Michael gray Eyes has a very short cameo. He's one of the basketball players in the first movie. One of the dreamiest people ever. He has done several movies and right now he is a lead in Rutherfruit Falls. So it's just really it fun. But like if I haven't watched this movie actually a couple of years, so watching it again and I'm like, oh, they're in this now, They're in this now. And the mom Tattoo Cardinal, she again has done so many projects. She's very well known. So these are all like very seasoned actors now, and so it's just really exciting to back then. This is probably one of their first roles and they have really all like blown up in the industry, you know. So it's really and this was Chris Ayre's first feature that he directed and co produced. I want to just pull a quote from him that he said at a screening of another of his films entitled Skins, where he said, quote, the only thing you get in making period pieces about Indians is guilt. I'm interested in doing what non Indian filmmakers can't do, which is portray contemporary Indians. And that's something that he seems to be very out like passionate about, and he talks about this a lot. Because I also watched a YouTube video ever heard of it from the a f I entitled A Conversation with Chris Ayer Native American Identity in the Movies, in which he talks about the representation of Native people in film, how historically it has been extremely harmful and stereotypical. He talks about how he approaches representation in his own filmmaking. He talks about how to represent Native characters responsibly, especially if you're a non Native person wanting to include Native people in your stories. So it's really interesting. Um, it's like an hour long. We can link it in the description, But I love how passionate he is about his storytelling and his his filmmaking and representation and he just seems like a really cool dude. Yeah. I actually, whenever I was on this episode, I had a memory comeback. I've actually met him really cool. Yeah, uh, many many years ago. When I was in high school, I attended a summer camp at high School Indian Nations University in Lawrence, Kansas, and he was one of the speakers one of the days. And Um, I was fairly shy as a fourteen year old, but I still got the gump shin to go up and talk to him. I didn't know what to ask him. He was really nice, he was pretty chill. But what I do remember is him like not being very impressed by me because I was like, how do you make a movie? And he was like, just do it, figure it out, kid. I was like, alright. He was Also I was naming big name actors and completely forgot Disney Princess Irene Ballard, who voice Poka Hottest. Yes, of course a movie you have yet to scale in, uh in the purview of this show. But I knew, I mean as a child who saw Pocahona's quite a bit. You know her voice right away and she's I mean, every performance in this movie is really good. Um, but she's like, I honestly was, I forgot how what a short amount of time she's in the movie, especially because she's like on the poster, she's like the center part of the poster. She's framed like she's the protagonist. Um right, which is I mean? But but like, her performances is so good and just I don't know, the performances are great. To put a button on the on the Chris Air stuff, I was, um, I'm very excited to watch that talk and also like, I mean, he's still very much like a working director. He was like thirty when he made this movie, and he's made like ten movies since. And I was excited to learn more about his career. And I wonder, Um, I mean, I want him to get access to like bigger budgets and projects if that's the sort of stuff that he wants to be doing. I don't really know what, you know, where he wants to stick. But I would love to see a huge budget Chris Air movie that would give him a Marvel movie or whatever he wants. I feel like Marvel movies waste good directors. I don't really I wouldn't wish that time on him, but if he wants it, then he should happen. Sure, let's take another quick break and we'll come back for a more discussion, and we're back. I wanted to talk about the I mean, one of the this movie does play into a joke we make on the show a lot, which is that ultimately every movie is about fathers and sons. Literally, at the end, I heard your voice say that. I was like, that's right. It's every movie me on the face of the planet is about a father and a son. And that is just a rule of movies that we cannot break. But in this I mean, in the case of this movie, this happens to be a really really good movie about fathers and sons. And so I wasn't mad, But I just like, there's so many smaller themes um some of them culturally specific, some of them universal. But I I don't think I've seen a movie in a long time, at least that explores something as complicated as grieving someone who hurt you as thoughtfully as this movie does. And it's not to say that like the way that Victor and Thomas grieve and process are correct. There's obviously no correct way to grieve, but all of the nuances, especially the way that information is introduced in this movie, where you know very early on that Arnold is holding something like holding onto a lot of rama, and so it's like this kind of back and forth of like you're like, oh, you know, you really feel for this character. He's clearly in a lot of pain, but then you see him physically abuse his family and you're like, well, fuck this guy, and then you get more information. Like I thought that the way the movie is paced and written, and the way that Victor and Thomas sort of approach, like there's just so much going on, like and how how am I going to process this and acknowledge and make space for my own abuse and healing which you can never make okay, but can you get to a point where you can forgive? For some people that's going to be yes, for some people that's going to be nope. But I just like, I don't know. I was I was crying a lot even through the wig. I was crying, crying, crying, just watching two very specific characters try to make their peace with such a complicated paternal figure his death, especially because I mean, I think one of the things we always make fun of all these movies being about fathers and sons, is that there's such an oversimplification of like complex family dynamics in a lot of these movies where it will be like a dad is a crappy dad, and so he has to become Santa Claus in order to redeem himself. And I yes, I am specifically referring to the Santa Claus because that's always comes back, always another famous Denny's motif in American cinema, it's an American institution, American institute. But with this one, I think it's just like you said, Jamie, It's just it's handled in such a way that it just feels like a compelling story and not another like trophy movie where like, oh my god, I'm a son or I'm a father and I need to figure this out in the like least nuanced way possible. So like those are the movies that that I make fun of, this one it explores things meaningfully, It examines the character's emotions. I'd like that you see these two extremely different approaches to grief and reconciliation that Victor and Thomas have, where like Thomas is um, yeah, it does seem to hold Arnold up on a on a pedestal, and because he sees him as his savior, he owes his life to him, so he hit a lot of his views towards him are informed by that, but he also recognizes like, yeah, this guy left his family, whereas Victor is just like pretty straightforward. Victor is a no bullshit guy, Like stories are fake. You're like every time someone tells Victor a story, he's like, shut up, that's your shit. Um, And yeah, he's just he's harboring a lot of resentment in a way that like I could certainly identify with. And it's you know, very understandable and like we said, there's no right or wrong way to grieve or to forgive. And I think a lot of what really resonated with me at least was the voice over at the end, and I wish I had written it down, But it's when Thomas is saying, like, how do we forgive our fathers? Do we forgive them for doing this or doing the exact opposite of that, And it's just like a lot of he's just listing off different behaviors and and uh and ends with a question to like it, it doesn't tell you that there's one right way for this to happen. I felt very like strongly connected to like Thomas's instinct to want to I also sort of like interpreted Thomas's behavior of like sometimes it is easier to remember someone who who hurt you and hurt people around you as this like heightened mythic superhero, which Thomas clearly wants superhero figures in his life. He's constantly talking about superheroes. He has that whole speech before Victor Chuck's is Canteen into the grass about like, you know, we don't have a Superman, we don't have a Batman, we don't have a wonder Woman. And so just seeing him, you know, in some ways I felt like elevated Arnold to this superhero that existed in his life. Well it's like he does. But then you find out at the end he knows, like he's aware that Arnold was not a superhero. But I don't know, sometimes you've got to tell yourself stories to get through the day, and that's a huge part of grieving. And and the fact that they managed to make this funny and like interesting to watch is just so wild. Yeah, if I could also like provide a little historical context to you. I know, I kind of brought up in green schools, but there are two things in play that I think can kind of help because another stereotype growing up was that me and my family were a bunch of drunk Indians, right, which is kind of shown in the movie whenever they have parties. That was actually seeing that hits really hard for me, is Victor as a young kid around all of these drunk adults. For me, that's one of the harder scenes to watch because that was something that happened, and I don't think a lot of people understand how that generation got there. Um, So just to provide like old context. Boarding schools, I'm sure most of our audience knows were instituted by the US government to assimilate Native people, but one of the driving forces of doing that was through religion. So what they did is not only assimilate these kids and you know, taking kids from their homes. It's already in like the eighteen sixties. That's like when the first boarding school opened, and then within a couple of decades they were all over the country. The use of religion and boarding schools I think ended around the sixties, and that is because is Over those centuries, the U. S Government, along with other state governments, made it illegal for Native Americans to practice their religion at all. Um. You could be arrested, you can be tried, and we put in prison. So not only do we have these generations that didn't grow up with their culture, we have the generations that were forced to not speak their culture. And then you have the generation after that grew up without culture and identity. Um, and that's very traumatizing. I am very lucky because my mom did not My mom and my nana did not grow up with that. My nana didn't go my mom's mom didn't go to boarding school, but my grandpa did, and my nana's aunts went to boarding school, and so I grew up with those stories. But when you have no when your culture has been stripped, when religion has been stripped, when your whole way of life has been stripped, then you're put into these desolate areas of the country where you have no previous religious ties to the land. What else are you gonna do? You're also they were provided too, with virtually no food. So while the fried bred story is fun, we have fry bread because the government essentially gave Natives flower and water to survive off of. So even fry bred still has like a tinge of kind of sadness to it. So of course there's going to be generations of people that without that identity, what are they turned to? And a lot of them turned to alcohol. People always say that Natives have a gene for alcoholism and that that we're prone to it, and I disagree. I think that when you have all of that stripped away from you, it's hard to not turn to anything else. Um, So I just wanted to kind of provide that because y'all are right, the story of the father's son is so relatable, and this is just an extra layer on top of that of how they ended up here, right, And like similar to a discussion we have a lot on the podcast about how oftentimes, like, for example, when men write two female characters in competition and they hate each other and their petty because that's what they've observed, but they don't explore at all why that might be, or why women might feel as though they need to compete with each other. It's just like all of that context is something that they either don't understand or can't see or anything like that. The same way that, yes, there is the stereotype of the drunk Indian in media, and that's just been put on film and put a TV and stuff without any exploration of, Okay, well, why might a Native person be abusing substances? Could it be all the trauma you put them through? Perhaps that that's very helpful context. Thank you for providing that. And yeah, and and that just speaks to when you have a native filmmaker who is the one like handling the characters and handling the culture, it's obviously going to be presented in a way that's way more informed and responsible than someone who doesn't understand all the context and all the nuances of everything. And it's obviously why this movie is so interesting and compelling and thought provoking and kind of speaking to that. And and like with that context, I feel like it's even more. It makes me appreciate even more that the movie, again like very seamlessly gives you a range of experiences with how people are dealing with alcohol abuse. Where in the case of Arnold, I mean you can argue, I mean, obviously his abuse of alcohol resulted in a lot of tragedy, but I do like that you get to see you learned by the end that he was clean and sober. I like that, Um, And that also kind of brings up we haven't really talked that much about Arlene outside of the fried Bred story of quite yet, but how when Arlene sees explicitly how much they're abusing alcohol is traumatizing and negatively affecting Victor when he's throwing the bottles at the truck and he's very you know, triggered and upset. That that is like her you know, lightbulb moment of like it has to end now, like we can't do this or we're going to like destroy our relationship with our son. And to see that moment and to see that be a moment that ultimately bonds her and Victor, I thought was like really really powerful. And Yeah, if anyone grew up with an alcoholic parent, it's a moment that you're like, oh, where was that. That's it's very cathartic too. And also, you know, Victor is basically raised by his mom from childhood until adulthood. UM, Thomas is raised by his grandma, and that is very reflective of how it actually does happen in the Native community. A lot of times it is the women that take care of the community, not to like shoot on them in but have you ever heard our podcast before? There are many Native bit of my life that I love and appreciate, but they would even agree that it is almost always Native women, Native aunties and grandmas and moms that take care of the community and that really helped keep us together. So it's a very cathartic moment. Yeah, when Arlene was like, we can't do this anymore. Um. And also to you know, the night before they asked him who his favorite Indian is and he said note one, and you know, so there was a very like I really appreciated that scene because I feel like it kind of had some resolution even though we're only halfway through the movie at that point. You know, it kind of created a resolution a little bit for Victor, right, And then when you get that part when Thomas is arguing with Victor and saying like, yeah, I I realized that your dad left your mom, but so did you, and you did the worst version of it because you still live in the same house with her, but you're just not there emotionally. And I hope that Victor takes that to heart and when he goes back home, he like really puts in some effort with with his mom, and like it's implied that it does happen. They have that moment. I think another thing that I wanted to talk about was the various references to the characters kind of calling attention to how they are overlooked in American history, how they are mistreated by white people, how they are perceived as unwelcome foreigners on their own land. A few examples of this would be when the two women in the reverse car, they like drop them off of the bus station and then like, do you have your passports because you're leaving the res and going to a whole different country, and they're like, what are you talking about. We're still in the United States. And then the woman is like, yeah, that's as foreign as it gets, Like I hope you got your vaccinations. And there's mention of them celebrating that Fourth of July party to celebrate white people's independence. There's the two white men on the bus who steal their seats and displace them, And I mean, what is that but a very small scale allegory for like the displacement and colonization of Native people in the US. There's also that speech, right that's in the middle of a Thomas monologue, um, that same Canteen scene where he's just kind of like referencing the anxiety of being displaced. He like mentions Aumbus and Custer, and then kind of ended by saying like, even if we, you know, like set up on the moon, Neil Armstrong would come along and like kick us out, and and and the way that it just like factors into conversation in this very matter of fact way, um, I thought was like so effective and good for sure. Yeah, well, because they are like major differences between Native world and white world, and that's how it feels. It's as very strong feeling that I think one of the bigger examples for me personally is that in my nation, women are expected to be leaders and you're expected to like hold leadership positions and you're expected through a lot of expectations. And then outside of that, right, h So outside of that is the patriarchy and not saying there isn't like sexism within the Native community that is influenced almost exclusively though by white people and Christianity and all of that. That's not something that inherently came from us, So, yeah, it's a it's a big difference in growing up. It was always a little weird having to go between the two different worlds because it's really what it feels like. Yeah, yeah, I just I thought all that was very effective, just like the characters touching on it and reminding anyone who's watching who's probably not familiar with the way that white culture has affected and continues to affect indigenous people. Those parts of the movie um very effectively done. Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? We haven't really talked about Susie. Yes, Yeah, I love Susie. I did too, I really like, I mean, and I do, like selfishly I wish that she was in the movie more, but I also understand why she appears when she does and why. And I also like I didn't really remember because I think I got like gas lit by the poster where I'm like, oh, I think she's in the rest of the movie, when like that's not the case, and I was sort of like, oh, is this going to be a forced love story? I kind of forget, I don't really remember, and I really like that it does not go that way where Susie appears. I think almost exactly halfway through the movie, she's Arnold's friend, another person like Arnold was a vaguely paternal figure to a lot of people, including his own son Um. But but it this seems like and and there are a few bizarre asides where you know, she says, like, your dad was a good looking guy. He gave me the eye a little bit, and it's like, but it but it wasn't like that. It would like ever and I think the movie makes that very clear. But like he became this just like I don't know, like I I always am really drawn to and I feel like it's never presented as a a tonic friendship between a man and a woman, but like two lonely people who become friends because of their shared loneliness, even if they don't have, you know, a ton in common like they do. I mean, they had some shared culture and they were alone. And like just the way that that friendship is characterized and fleshed out, and like how much it really clearly meant to Susie and how much she really wanted to get across how Arnold had grown in his final years to his son in an attempt to kind of like at least, I don't even know if it's like it's helping grieve, but like grieve with all the facts. I guess, which makes sense because Victor, like the whole movie, wants facts, but then when he's confronted with facts, he's like, I don't know, you know, like it's just which just such a yeah, You're like, did I say I want it back? So I don't, because for me, it's the conflict of like, yeah, I'm glad he's sober. I'm glad he's sobered up, but he never went back. But it's like if he had gone back too soon, he still would have been an absent father. So I think that's also what makes Thomas's monologue at the end so point in it's like, basically, he did so much wrong it's hard to know what would have been the right move. But and I also kind of feel the victor at the end. Every time I watched the ending of the movie, my feeling is towards Arnold is different every time. Um, sometimes I'm more forgiving and then sometimes I'm more angry than i am forgiving, And I think that kind of speaks to the effectiveness of how they portray Arnold and all the different viewpoints we get on him through Victor and Thomas and even Arnold himself and how he views himself because of the conversation between the two of them about what's the worst thing you've ever done? Okay, sure, coming in hot there, I think that she's like it was one of the first times we ever hung out. Yeah, yeah, I know. I feel I feel similarly conflicted about Arnold, because I mean, obviously nothing excuses abuse, but Arnold clearly loved his son. He was a victim of his circumstances of you know, living in the cycle of poverty on a reservation, you know, again, the generational trauma. The it's also implied that he was and I can't because it was a story Thomas was telling, so I don't know, like how inflated any of the details were, But it is implied that he spent some time in jail also, like, which is a whole other trauma to have to deal with later in life. Yeah. The other thing about Susie is that, And I think it's just because I've been so conditioned by movies to assume that if you get attractive young people in the same square mall, they will kiss. So I was like, Oh, for sure, either Thomas or Victor are gonna kiss Susie before they leave, and that never happens, which I also found very refreshing. Susie's alone Wolf Baby, She's I love, I mean, I love where they leave her story to where like she's you know, it's not her movie, but you do get to see like she ends by burning down Arnold's trailer and kind of this symbolic gesture, and then she moves on and it's like she's on her She's on a whole personal journey of grieving this very complicated person as well. I just I love that the movie like takes that moment to let you know where she lands, because they feel like a lesser movie would be like, Okay, this character has served her purpose, so let's, you know, move along. I also like this is such a small all thing, and again I feel like just a demonstration of like how many scraps um were forced to look for in uh women characters. But we immediately find out what she does for a living, and we immediately find out background facts about her like Victors, like Okay, so where are you from? Like how did you grow up? What do you do? Like just stuff you usually don't find out about women in movies. Ever, Um, you find out that she was a nurse, but now she works in health care administration. She travels a lot. It's exciting, but it's lonely. She grew up in New York, which is already like five hundred times more than you learn about some women who are the protagonist of a movie. Like I just was like wow, and and like such a beautiful performance from Irene Bedard, and I just love Susie And I know, like I self like we were saying, I selfishly wish she was in it longer, but but I feel like the time that she is in the movie is so respectful of who she is and like gives you a full picture of who she is. And so I wasn't ultimately like I don't know, like piste off or extremely bothered that she wasn't in it more. I would have liked it. But but if like the time she's on screen is he's really really thoughtfully. I think same applies to Thomas's grandmother and who's I don't think we ever learned her first name, but um, and and Arlene as well her yeah, and Victor's mom Arlene where we don't get all that much screen time with them, but when we do, the storytelling and the character development is so effective and economical that you, you know, you understand these characters, you feel their struggle. Yeah, you're just you're compelled by their presence on screen. So so it ultimately is a movie about fathers and sons. However, it's unlike many movies about fathers and sons. The women who are in the movie are fully realized characters that have kind of a whole range of viewpoints and generations and like, there's a lot of variety in the women that we see, and then there are moments that are about mothers and sons and grandmothers and sons. And even if it's not the thrust of the movie, I appreciate that it's there. Indeed, I just wish there was more. Yeah, that's kind of kind of my only critique. I do. I agree. I wish we had gotten more time with Susie. I also wish for not wish. I think that the story could have still been effective even without her being like and he used to eye me like, I don't know that has every time I watched that, I'm just like I could do with that, especially with the I know we're not talking about the Sherman Alexei stuff, but I was like, yeah, ye, should we talk about the Sherman Alexey? I mean maybe just to mention that I think it was in I'm guessing in light of me too. He was accused of sexual harassment by multiple women, many people. Yeah, it's very disappointing because I have read several of his books and they were very relatable and very important to me. So it's very disappointing whatever stuff like that happens. So just why you know, Uh, But yeah, back to Susie, Um, I just wish we would have had more of her. I also liked the way the conversation ran, because again it's kind of how conversations with a lot of elders girl like who are you, where you're from, who's your family? Blah blah blah. Not quite what's the worst thing you've ever done? But I liked the familiarity in their interaction and whatever she did interact with Thomas and Victor. I think in the beginning maybe it was like maybe a little flirtatious, you could argue that, but it also felt like, um, cousins at one point like they had become so familiar because they have a shared relative between the three of them essentially, So I liked that feeling of it as well. So well, I do wish we had more of her. I think her time in the film was very effective. I'm very memorable too, for sure. Yeah. Does anyone have any other thoughts they'd like to share. I'm just so happy that you guys watched this film, and hopefully after this episode more people will go watch it and support native films and TV shows. We're coming out, you know. Hell yeah, And this movie is streaming on Showtime right now. So if you're running your damn mouth about Yellow Jackets, you gotta watch Smoke Signals because I'm not watching Yellow Jackets. I'm tired. Yes, please check out this movie. If you've listened to the episode and you haven't already seen it, give it a watch. Other indigenous filmmakers and creators check out their stuff, check out their their media and their art. And yeah, this is Smoviie pass the Becktel test. It definitely passes the Bechtel test. But do do does it that? My question is, do we ever find out what the names of the women in the car are Oh, that's a good question, because their names IMDb. But you're right, I don't remember if anybody says their names to them. I think that they so that caveat, and I'm always like, oh, well, that usually means is it. Is it a character who is only on screen for like five seconds and they say like two words kind of thing. They have a full extended scene and are like significant enough. I'm willing to give it a pass. I'm just saying, it's not hard to say someone's name. Um, sure, Yeah, I think on IMDb, is it Lucy and Velma? So those are those characters names acording to IMDb, yet don't I don't think they're said aloud in the film, but they are given names in the script presumably, so I would say that counts. And they have a whole conversation about drinking cokes and and they're just vibing. They're vibing in the car. It's really fun. I feel it. It also passes the ALT task absolutely. Shout out to the ALT test. Shout out to Ali Noddy And as far as our nipple scale goes zero to five nipples. Based on an examination of the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I would say, even though this is a story focused on male characters and their relationship, like the core narrative is about like a reconciliation between different male characters, that's okay for a movie to be about that if if you do it well, and you do it like and if you examine that thoughtfully. So even though women are not necessary the driving force of the story doesn't really bother me in this or a movie like this, where it's well written and in a well crafted story, That's what I like to see more movies driven by Native women. It's not the job of one movie to do everything, obviously, but definitely would like to see more and more of that as well. Certainly. Um, even so, I think that this movie is just really compelling and that it is, like I said, a movie that either lets some people see themselves represented on screen in a very meaningful and thoughtful way, and for other people it's a chance to let them learn about a culture that they might not already be familiar with. So yeah, I think it's fantastic, And I'll give the movie. I'll give it four nipples, and I will give one two Susie Song. I will give one two Thomas's grandma, I will give one to Arlene, and I'll split the last one between our friends Velma and Lucy. In the car driving backwards, Um, I will go. I'll go for as well. I mean, I just this movie is so wonderful for such a wide variety of reasons. We were having a conversation last night about like movies that are very very watchable and rewatchable, and this movie is so watchable and manages to tackle so much and if you are not familiar with a lot of Native culture, not to say that it's um, you know, it's obviously very regionally specific, but I feel like there's a lot that non nat To viewers can learn. Well, there's like it's just there's there's just so many good things going on in this movie. And it's also really fucking fun in spite of a lot of the heavier themes. The performances rock. I love Thomas, I love Susie. I mean, did I text I texted you that Thomas aka the actor Evan Adams is like a dead ringer for a guy I used to date, and so I like the second I saw him on screen, I was like, I have a crush on him already and he hasn't said a single word anyway. Sorry to interrupt to talk about my heterosexual crush boring, but that said, Evan Adams is uh my head or a sexual crush. So any ways, uh kaylie, I mean I think we've we've we've covered it. I mean, I'll dock get a nipple because I do think that there was a little more space to include Susie a little more. Uh, wouldn't I killed the movie to include the names of the women driving backward in the car, little things like that, And I think there was room for for women a little more in this movie. But the story that is told is so beautiful and does include women pretty significantly, And it's just I don't know, just like a very you know, it's hard to selve me on a movie that's ultimately about fathers and sons, but this is this movie is like undeniable because it tackles the topic so thoughtfully and it's such an emotional journey. Um. And I think that there is a lot to be said for the men feeling their feelings and processing emotions in movies. You don't get a lot of movies that are about men processing their emotions towards each other, like without beating each other. Well, I guess young Victor does. They were kids, but then they grow and then they have this beautiful emotional And I also appreciate that at the end it's not implied that they're going to be best friends. Now. I always feel like it's kind of like goofy when it's like two people who are they're not going to like hang out every day, but they're good. They've they're like they've made their peace with each other. They'll always have love for each other, even though it's not like we're not going to chill every day. Though, you know, like I played basketball together all the time. Thomas has to go do Thomas things. He's busy, especially trying on suits. He has more suities to wear. I'll go for nipples and I'm gonna, yeah, give one to each of the women driving backwards. I'm gonna give one to Susie and I'm gonna give one to Thomas Olivia. How about you? So I also agree with the four nipples. I think I only dock a nipple because while the women are portrayed in a very nuanced way, in circular way, Um, you know in real life women talk to each um and not only famously. I have to see it to believe it. But uh, not only joy which Susie had more time, but I think there would have also been room to see Grandma and Arlene talk to each other, definitely, just because to me it feels more realistic either talking about their kids, are talking about aren't or just gossiping like that's That's the only reason why I want to give it a full five nipple maybe, like you know what, I'm wouna do a four and a half because this is also a nostalgic movie for me, it holds a very easier place in my heart. Um So I'm gonna do four and a half. I'm gonna give to to Grandma because we love the grandma's in our community. I'm gonna give one to Arlene because she work in real hard, and then one to Victor, one to Thomas, and then the half to Victor. Love it. I don't think you can Victor any Yeah, Victor was, he was hurting. Thanks for helping him out. Also, so as you can tell, I don't have the same accent they do because I grew up on that reservation. But super quick story. Uh, a year and a half ago, I auditioned for a radio play that wanted to do that type of accents. So you know how like whatever you try to do an accent, you have a phrase that you do a Victor and I was just going around my house Victor Victor. I love the every time they would say a sentence and then say ain't it And it's a little kind of like vocal filler. Also shout out to my favorite joke of the whole movie where Victor comes into cash's check from his mom. Thomas is, it's like in a like a store, a market. Thomas was there and he says, Oh, I'm so sorry to hear about your dad, And Victor is like, how did you hear about that? And he's like, I heard it on the wind, I felt it in the sunlight, I heard it in the trees. And also your mom wasn't here crying about it. Also my favorite joke to um well, Olivia, thank you so much for join us and being here to talk about this movie. It was such a delight. Where can people check you out on social media if there's anything else you'd like to plug plug away? Absolutely, thank you for having me on this is so much fun. Um. As you can tell, I love this movie, so I'm always willing to talk about it. Um. You can follow me on all socials, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok um. Here's your name is the same across all three. It is at Live Native ninety three. That is L I V and A t I V E nine three. Um. And I also am a content writer for a tribe called geek website. I recommend checking out. They have partnered with Red Planet, which also produces like common Indigenous comic books. So we just had like a really fun, fun meeting about a week ago just discuss our goals. So I recommend checking that out if you want to know about Native maybea and comic books and movies and all that fun stuff. So yeah, tried call dot com incredible. I supposed to shout out one more fun fact that we didn't I did. I didn't find a moment to touch on. But Evan Adams, who plays Thomas, he's a doctor now he's but he still does bit parts in movies. But he went to medical school in two thousand and two, so like a couple years. Because I was like, why haven't I seen him in more we talked about all of the actors who really blew up. And it's not for any lack of any I mean, he just became a doctor and as often he is the chief Medical Officer of the First Nation's Health Authority in British Columbia, so he's like an s TR doctor, so shouts out even he contains multitudes. Wow, yeah, that makes me feel not great about my accomplishments. I'm not a doctor yet, but no. Seriously, um, Olivia, thank you so much for being here. Come back any time, and you can follow us on social media at spectel Cast on Twitter and Instagram. You can go to our Matreon gets you two episodes a month. You get access to the back catalog of all the episodes and that could be found at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast, and you can get our merch at the public dot com slash the Becktel Cast if you're so inclined. And with that, let's get in the pickup truck and go home to mommy room room Zoom zoom, by bye.