318. Dealing with uncertainty in your 20s

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Hey, it's Gemma and I have something really special to share with you. I'm hosting my first ever virtual live video podcast. Not a pre recorded episode, not a highlight reel, but a real time, face to face moment where we get to connect, laugh, and kind of just reflect together no matter where you are in the world. Plus, I'm hosting a VIP after party for my inner circle. I will be answering your questions and getting to talk to you guys even more. It's happening August twelfth at seven pm Pacific time, or August thirteenth at twelve pm. If you live in my hometown of Sydney, you can grab your ticket now at pave dot Live. I cannot wait to see you there.

00:00:45
Speaker 2: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through some of the big life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean for our psychology.

00:01:03
Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in the world, it is so great to have you here back for another episode as we of course break down the Psychology of your twenties today to just jump straight to the chase. We are talking about perhaps one of the most defining parts of our twenties, the overwhelming uncertainty of just being in this decade. If this decade had one word to describe it, one theme to trump them all, it would be uncertainty. We are lost in this very weird haze of not really knowing who we are, not really knowing what the future holds, what's going to happen with our jobs, with our friends, with our finances, with our love lives, and even once you think you have some part of it figured out, another part of your life suddenly crumbles and you're kind of just left feeling as lost as you were before. So I got this dam from a listener the other day that I wanted to share, which really inspired me to talk about this because going back through the archives, I realized we have never sat down and done a full episode dedicated to this feeling, despite it being I would say universal. This is what her DM said, Hi, Gemma, I'm in my twenties like I'm sure most of your listeners are, so there must be others who relate to this feeling. My dilemma is that everyone tells me to just try something, and that it doesn't matter what path I'm taking in my twenties, as long as I'm moving forward. What really paralyzes me, though, is not knowing whether the path I choose to take will make me happy or at least happier than any other path. When I visualize my future, it just feels like a big, ominous gray cloud, and I can't help but feel like if I just knew one part of the story, I could decide once and for all what direction to take. How do I deal with my fear of uncertainty? It's the biggest thing holding me back. I just knew, like instantly upon reading this, how many of us, and I can include myself in this group, can relate to that feeling, the feeling that our futures are not necessarily exciting but actually really scary and really ominous. And a lot of that fear of the unknown really fuels in decision, and it fuels not making decisions that are important to make at this stage in our life, which of course fuels later dissatisfaction. But I think when you understand why we feel such uncertainty to begin with, why it is human nature to turn away from the unknown, but also how we can shift our feelings about uncertainty so that it feels less scary. That is, when this sensation has less control of you, you know you're no longer fighting a losing battle against it. Uncertainty can become perhaps your sign that you're going in the right direction. It can be a sign of growth. It can be a sign that you are trying new things and you're expanding as a person. So you welcome it. You welcome the sensation rather than running away from it. If that sounds kind of implausible and out of reach, let me explain how exactly we can get to that point. If you want to get to that place, we're going to have to make uncertainty feel like an asset and we need to have a better strategy for coping with this feeling. And so that is exactly what we are going to talk about today. How we can celebrate rather than fear the unknown, How we can integrate this feeling into our life plan, see it as a sign, but also some of the origins of why we feel this way, not just in our twenties, but as a species. All of that and more and so much psychology. So stay with us. My fear of uncertainty. I think definitely shifted when I realized that uncertainty is the opposite of boredom and predictability. If I knew exactly how my life was going to turn out, if I knew what was around every single corner, the name of every single friend, I would meet, my entire resume until the time I retire, Yes, I would feel less uncertain, But what would the point of being alive even be? I think the newness of life, the experiences, the surprises, they are really what makes this whole thing worthwhile. In a sense, you can't have surprises, you can't have unexpected joy, you can't learn, you can't have excitement and anticipation without uncertainty. It is a core ingredient in so many otherwise really amazing and pleasurable experiences. And That's what I'm personally learning to appreciate and focus on when I do have those very natural moments of being paralyzed by all that I don't know yet, I'm kind of jumping the gun here. Yes, uncertainty may have its upsides, we definitely can think about it differently, But why do we even experience it to begin with? And what makes it so freaking uncomfortable. That's really what we have to nail down first. Like I said in the beginning, uncertainty in our twenties are basically two peas in a pod for a variety of reasons. Firstly, I want you to give yourself some grace. You are doing everything for the first time ever. Basically you are basically an adult toddler or an adult child who yes, can read hopefully and can write, and is hopefully potty trained and all those things. But you are now experiencing the next level of situations, the next level of learning, experiences that are emotionally complex and not straightforward. And as you're experiencing that, you also are without the same safety net that you relied upon when you were younger. And you're without the reassurance and the security of teachers and parents and a school system and a side or system that hopefully isn't going to let you fall through the cracks. You're on your own. An uncertainty therefore feels a lot more alarming because you feel like you're the one who is going to hold the burden experience the full burden of any poor decision or any poor outcome you made. It's all on you at this point. Another element of this is that because you are an adult toddler, you haven't had enough life experience yet to know that things will eventually work out for you, even if they don't the first time, even if they are not working out right now, people in their forties and their fifties and later, they know that the breakup isn't the end of the world because they've experienced them and survived before. They know making a major mistake or losing a friend or losing a job isn't the end of the world because they have evidence from previous life experience to tell them that. But you, you don't have those same data points. You don't have that same catalog of examples that tell you everything is going to be okay. Uncertainty for you, and uncertainty for a lot of us in our twenties doesn't have a conclusion the way that it has for people who are older. Then, of course, just to add even more fuel to the fire, there's the fact that you're kind of living between milestones, and this decade is definitely one of perpetual transition. You know you're no longer a teenager, but you know you don't really feel like an adult. Yet you're not at that financial level, you're not settled in a career, you're not settled in a relationship the way that you expect adults to be. What are you really? It's what psychologists call a liminal space, The in between and liminal emotional spaces are by nature, by definition disorientating because they don't come with a clear script, and of course there's no accurate way, and there's no one who's going to be our but to tell you like, Okay, you're doing you're doing well, you're doing fine, you are being you are successful. Earlier in life, this is something I talk to people about all the time. Earlier in life, your entire days, weeks, months, are set up in a structure that will tell you if you are doing well. There are clear benchmarks for life performance, things like grades, things like passing to the next year level, things like a whole cohort of people in the same situation at the same time and the same age as you, with whom you can mark your progress against, and they're probably all in the same environment. Like at school. You don't have that anymore. You don't have that same framework to look around and think, okay, I'm doing okay or I'm not doing okay, and these are the areas I can improve, or these are the areas that I'm excelling. You don't have that anymore, and it might seem really arbitrary, but those social structures and those environmental structures and that context actually provides a great deal of and a great sense of calm and stability. So you have during this decade almost suddenly lost a lot of what previously allowed to just stay grounded, security, structure, direction, and of course, finally, what may feel like a curse but certainly isn't, is the fact that as a generation, we have more choices than ever we really do. And it's a beautiful thing and everyone tells us we're very privileged. We also know that that creates a real paradox of choice that can be quite stifling. You know, it is amazing that when we're in our twenties, like eighty percent of the doors are open to us. Definitely, there are some things that we probably can't do anymore. You know. Unfortunately, you're probably not going to become an Olympic gymnast if you haven't been training since you were a trial. But in general, you know, you were at the start line of pretty much everything else. All the doors are open. Do you know how utterly terrifying that actually is? We probably do it because you're experiencing it, but it certainly does feel like with each decision you make, the more doors you seem to close, with no certainty around whether you might actually want to go back through that door later, and no certainty around what might happen next, Closing those doors seems a lot more scary than it does fulfilling, so you do nothing. You're paralyzed by choice and the endless pro cons list that we know as decision paralysis. That's really the twenty something explanation for uncertainty. There's also a more human explanation as to why uncertainty in any capacity, not just when it comes to the big ticket items of our twenties, is so uncomfortable for us as a species. To firstly, really state the obvious. Our brains they are wired to seek out stability and clarity, because when if something is known and familiar, there are of course less opportunities for danger and threats. Now, the part of our brain that controls this primal urge, there's true specific regions actually it's the prefrontal cortex, so right up here at the front, and the limbic system, which is really deep inside our brain. It's part of what we call the old brain. A series of studies done in the early two thousands basically found that when we are exposed to ambiguous things like an ambiguous image or ambiguous scenery, the limbic system, particularly the amygdala, light up. Even when these participants were in a laboratory setting where there is no immediate danger, your brain is always going to respond over cautiously and over zealously to something it doesn't understand, such as the unknowns of the future. But that feeling is also something that we can't suppress. It's automatic and for good reason. You know, we want that part of us that assesses danger to not be reliant on our judgment and to be able to act quick. And you know, the reason that we have such an aversion to uncertainty is primarily rooted in the fact that we needed to in order to survive. When you face an unknown you know, your brain will immediately seek out as much information as it can, real or imagined to fill the gaps. Our brain is wired to do this. You might know this by another term, which is catastrophizing. Your brain is trying to figure out what's every possible thing that's going to happen here. It's going to simulate outcomes, it's going to generate predictions. The problem is it actually has no idea what's going to happen. So it serves up all these situations, some of them completely impossible, some of them may be more likely. We can't always discern or tell the difference between what is more likely and what is less likely. We are just receiving information from this very old, ancient part of our brain, and we're experiencing it as it comes. We're experiencing all the fear as it comes without being able to interrupt that and say, wait, how do I why do I think this? How do I know this is going to happen? Oh wait, I actually don't. So this brings me to a next point. A lot of our anxiety and our fears don't actually emerge from necessarily something having gone wrong in actuality, but from the question of what if, what if this happens? What if this even worst thing happens, What if the worst thing happens. This is because our brain will stay in this loop of providing us with potential outcomes until it has some kind of resolution or closure. It doesn't want to switch off the alarm system until the reason for the alarm has been given meaning or it's identified what the problem was. And like I said in the past, that was useful. Now it's just plain old annoying. It's annoying, and your uncertainty is meant to feel that way. It's meant to feel annoying and awful and frustrating, because again, it wants to keep you alert. It wants to grab your attention like a big shiny billboard or a big red stop sign. It wants you to be looking straight at it. It wants you to be directing it's focused on to the thing you don't understand and that you're unsure about, so that you can provide it with a sense of closure. The thing is, if you give your anxiety and your fear of the unknown and answer, if you give yourself a reason for the uncertainty, more specifically, you give it a purpose, it will actually go away. We are going to discuss that more in a second, which is bear with me, but it's also important as well. Before we move on to understand that how you experience uncertainty in your twenties is not the same as how everyone else is going to experience this feeling, so you can't beat yourself up if you feel like you are struggling with it more than others. Psychologists in the early nineties identified what they called an intolerance for uncertainty spectrum. Basically, they found that where you sit in terms of your tolerance or intolerance for uncertainty will determine how much information you think you need before you make a decision. They discovered this spectrum almost by accident. They were actually trying to determine what personality traits caused anxiety, and in that research, what they kept realizing that was that a number of their participants all reported this same experience, this sense that they weren't necessarily scared about what was going to happen. They just really wanted to know what was going to happen. And these same people were the ones who would read ahead in books even if they were excited by the plotline. They would read spoilers in the papers of movies that they were really eager to see even though they knew it was going to kind of ruin the enjoyment. They would also at times make more impulsive decisions in their relationships when they felt something was fading or feeling off, not because they necessarily wanted the relationship to end, but because to them, and it's kept coming up over and over again, a known bad outcome was better than an unknown good outcome. These same individuals were also, surprise, surprise, more likely to have a diagnosis of generalized anxiety disorder. Most people in society and in our world will score in the middle of this spectrum for an intolerance for uncertainty, But people who score higher, probably like you and I, tend to spend a lot more time ruminating on the future than being in the present moment, and they just can't help it. Someone with a high intolerance for uncertainty, they might make lists repeatedly, They plan out conversations in their head. They look at food menus well before they're going to a restaurant, just to make sure that they know that there's something they're going to like and they know what they're going to order. They triple check driving routes, do all these things basically to calm this sense that if I don't know well, then something's going to go wrong, this cloud ahead of me. It can only be dangerous if this is you your twenties unnaturally, and I'm sorry to say it, they are going to feel a lot more stressful and they're going to feel harder than someone who can naturally go with the flow, because you are constantly being bombarded with unknowns and it's not you, it's this decade. I promise you. I'm going to give you some good news and some solutions in just a second. But I do want to talk about what can happen if we let uncertainty force us into a corner or force us into a place of an action. Because uncertainty is so uncomfortable, it can be a very powerful maladaptive motivator, i e. Something that motivates us to do things that are actually against our interests. And it's really important that we are aware of that so that when we pause and are choosing whether to act, whether or not to act, we can carefully examine whether this isn't our best interest or just because we are scared of an outcome that is no more or less likely than any other outcome. The ways this shows up in our twenties could be a very long list, but I'm going to keep it brief, and I want to scare you. I'm just going to touch on two of the big consequences of letting this feeling rule your life. Firstly, you accept what you don't deserve, and also less than what you're capable of and less than what you've actually worked for. It's like what I said before, a known bad outcome over an unknown good outcome is what you prefer, and how that might look like is accepting the first grad offer because you're scared of not getting another even though you don't really want the job. Accepting the first person who I don't know starts talking to you on hinge because you're scared that no one else will talk to you, and you're scared of what it will mean to be single after a certain age. You choose the first apartment you see, the first car you try out. You go to the same places on the same trips over and over again, because an uncertain outcome, even if there is chance that it could be amazing, you don't want to take that risk. Bear in mind, I have no judgment on this, I have done this myself. All of that is basically anecdotal. All that is basically my lived experience, because I am someone who's this in the same boat with you. The second consequence of a failure to embrace uncertainty in our twenties is that we actually don't act at all. We don't choose any job, we don't choose any partner, because what if it's not the right one. You know, In the first scenario, we chose the first thing, and this scenario, we don't choose anything at all. It probably won't surprise you that perfectionism and the fear of uncertainty are actually, in fact sisters. They are, They're incredibly aligned. In fact, I personally think that perfectionism is basically just the fear of uncertainty with a different name. It's like a subgenre of the feeling. Perfectionism often disguises itself as ambition or high standards or great expectations for yourself, but underneath, it's usually just fear. It's just a fear of the unknown, the fear of what failure might bring, the fear of making the wrong move. It is actually less about doing things perfectly and more about trying to eliminate the possibility of regret. That's what makes it a close relative of uncertainty. They both come from a deep discomfort with not knowing how things will turn out. Think of perfectionism in this case as kind of like an emotional armor. If I just plan enough, if I delayed the decision long enough, if I do everything just right, then maybe maybe I can avoid disappointment. But what you're really doing is just trying to outrun uncertainty. A twenty twenty two study actually looked at a group of students to determine whether the perfectionism meant people were less quick to act when it came to making a decision. They asked these students to complete a questionnaire which would essentially rank each student based on perfectionist tendencies, so the most perfectionists down to the least perfectionists, And then they asked those students to consider a bunch of would you rather questions? So would you rather I don't know this or that? Would you rather X or y? There was about I think fifty of them fifty scenarios, and they measured how long it took them to complete these entire range of scenarios. The top twenty five percent of perfectionists took the same amount of time combined to complete the exercise as the remaining seventy five percent of students. They took so much longer because they were sat there considering, wanting to make the perfect choice. The thing is, opportunities don't always wait for us to make up our minds. Big decisions aren't always going to let you delay them. They will find the next person, or they will disappear. A big part of our twenties is being able to say yes to that thing that feels really scary. Yes, I'm going to try. Yes, I don't know what's going to happen, let me just do it anyways. But when you are battling the fear of all fears, the fear of the unknown, it's going to be a lot harder for you. Finally, I'm here to give you some good news. This is actually something you can change, and it's something that many people have proven to themselves that they are able to overcome. So I want to explain exactly how you can do this, including something you could literally do in the next five minutes if you wanted to, that will allow you to better act on your dreams, on the opportunities, on the desires of our twenties. So we're going to talk about all of that and so much more. Are this short break. Hey, it's Gemma and I have something really special to share. I'm hosting my first ever virtual live video podcast. Not a pre recorded episode, not a highlight reel, but a real time, face to face moment where we get to connect, laugh, reflect, and honestly just kind of being it together. No matter where you are in the world, if you've ever hit play on an episode of the Psychology of Your Twenties or Mantra and thought I really wish I could just talk to Gena about this right now, this is your chance. We're diving into the messy, beautiful chaos of your twenties, your thirties, of life and beyond, and yes, you get to be right there with me. There's a live chat so we can talk in real time, and afterwards, I'm hosting a private VIP party, my inner circle, we would call it, where I'll be answering your questions and getting even more personal. It's happening August twe well at seven pm Pacific time, or August thirteenth at twelve pm if you're on Sydney or Australia, so mark your calendar, Tell your friends, grab your ticket now at pave dot Live. I can't wait to see you there. Okay, so we are back talking about uncertainty in our twenties, and luckily for us, we are actually not the first generation to feel this way, nor will we be the last. And that's good news because it means that there are a lot of people who have come up with some really amazing approaches to this feeling that helped get them through this period of discomfort and which will hopefully help you as well. The biggest thing we can do for our uncertainty in our twenties, and I've been hinting at this for the entire episode, is to basically assign it a purpose, because that satisfies our deeper desire for a reason, a meeting, and kind of just a sense of why why is this happening? The purpose you assigned to your uncertainty, it could be that you see this as a learning opportunity. It could be that you view uncertainty as a right of passage. It could be that uncertainty is a sign that you're opening yourself up to new things which are scary. It could be a call to surrender and just to accept life as it is. It could be a real spiritual thing. It could be that uncertainty just makes for a really good story, and you value a good story and you can't have one with that uncertainty. Whatever it is, whatever makes uncertainty feel meaningful to you, hone in on that. Anytime you feel overwhelmed by the feeling, remind yourself, Okay, but this has a purpose. This has a meaning for me. I personally think of uncertainty as a sign that I am about to really grow as a person, and, for lack of a better word, I'm about to level up. Every time I have ever felt scared, lost, uncertain it has always been the beginning of something just over the horizon that I haven't been able to see yet. Like it always signals to me that something really big is about to come that way. Now now that I know that's its purpose, I actually almost get excited when I'm feeling that way. I feel like I get kind of giddy. I'm like ready to be surprised, and I really feel like I'm in preparation mode for whatever is about to happen next. The reason this worked is because when we assign a role to our uncertainty, this actually gives us a cognitive framework through which we can accept it, through which we can just let it exist and actually focus on what we need to focus on. We give the annoying voice a job. It's like when a toddler. I don't know if you've been around kids a lot, but when like a toddler or a child is being really annoying, so you tell them they have to rearrange all the pens, or they have to divide up all their dolls or pick up something like rise. I don't know, you give them a job so you can get to work, Like you give the annoying voice somewhere someone else to talk to you, or something else to do. The second way to really confront your uncertainty is also to look for stories of people who didn't have it all figured out or who dealt with supreme uncertainty and came out the other side, rather than just looking for people who seem like a natural A to B success story. The natural success stories are all we seem to see these days. So you would think that most people who you admire have never struggled the way that you do and that you have. That's false. It's hugely it's a big myth. When you start collecting these stories, you will find that almost every single person who has made something of themselves has an uncertainty story DOCI. For example, that's one I've recently added to my list. The Woman of the Hour. She posted a YouTube video back in twenty twenty, only like five years ago, about how she got fired from her job, and in it, she's like, tomorrow, I'm just gonna doorknock at a bunch of studios and just see if they will give me an internship. She just want a grammy. Five years ago, she was completely unsure of where she was going to end up, and she ended up in the right place because she leant into it. The founder of Spanks, She's another one on my list. She used to selle machines like daor to door. Now she runs a billion dollar industry. Stephen King, He's another one. His like draft for his book Carrie, which is now a cult classic, a favorite of so many. He literally threw that manuscript in the trash after it was rejected thirty times, and that book is a cultural icon. I even think of my mom, like my mom is the one that often comes to mind for me. You know, she was kicked out of university because she got such poorly bad grades they basically expelled her. And and then she took a year after travel. She didn't really know what she wanted to do. She came back, she did something different, and she graduated with the top jop and now she's like this incredibly powerful, successful girl boss. All these people and you have something very important in common. In their journey to success and to wherever they ended up. There were moments when they had absolutely no idea what was next, and they just had to bet on themselves, and they just had to trust that they were capable. And once you start searching for these stories, you will see them everywhere. You will see them constantly, until one day you'll have your own version of this story, your own version of how you overcame uncertainty, how in hindsight, the path was actually so clear the entire time. Another small thing you can do, and it's going to sound so minuscule and silly you might be tempted to skip it. Please don't. I want you to make a playlist that you feel represents yourself and play it whenever you feel uncomfortable or confused as a way to really just bring yourself back and center yourself. Even if it doesn't necessarily help you feel less uncertain, it can just help you with the general feelings of discomfort and strangeness that you may be having, and just as like a fun thing to do, a fun thing to do to remind yourself of who you are, of who you want to be, of what your core values are. All through music. These songs reflect how you see yourself back at you, and that is a very special, familiar, beautiful feeling. There's actually this brilliant twenty fourteen paper from a researcher in Texas that talks about how music contributes to the formation of our identity and can help us trust ourselves more because it acts as a touchstone when we feel challenged. It represents all the times we have previously overcome challenge, all the times we've previously experienced joy, and the music we choose really does reflect our values and says something about how we see ourselves. And so when you're kind of externally lost and don't really know who you are and can't really find your way back, music is this like beautiful anchor you know, I have a playlist like this. The playlist is called if Jemma was a playlist, and I was listening to it literally the other day, and it has songs from twenty sixteen all the way up to last week. And it's really a beautiful way to see how I've transformed, to be able to categorically see different chapters in my life and what was happening during them, like and the music brings back all those memories and also just to see how far I've come. And so it's something you can literally take five minutes to do for yourself right now. It's a fun exercise. I promise you it will help you ground yourself during this like crazy chaotic period. On a much larger scale, the biggest antidote for uncertainty is really this, just try something, Try anything, Choose something that interests you to get good at, and when that thing stops serving you, choose something else. We have to let go of this idea that every decision you make in life has to naturally flow into the next and the next and the next, and that you have to have some step by step plan that you can follow for your life. Your life is not a recipe. You're not making a cake, you're not cooking sowder. Like it's a series of experiments that take you to different places that you didn't even know you were going to get to. And when you give yourself permission to just try, you really break this cycle of needing to know, You break this cycle of needing to have all the answers, and you move as well from that rumination spiral of am I doing the right thing? Is this the best choice? To just knowing that if you're taking action and if you're doing something, you are making the right choice. Even imperfect action, even the wrong choice, is still a better choice than not doing anything at all. And it also gives you data, It gives you experience, it gives you stories. A question to really ask yourself as well. If you're kind of thinking, okay, that's great, but which direction should I choose? Especially if you're someone who has a lot of hobbies and interests and passions and ambitions, the question to ask yourself is just what would make me most disappointed if I didn't do this? What would I be most regretful around not doing in twenty years time? This mentally makes you kind of compute how much you have to lose by not acting, rather than getting you stuck in this spiral of how much you have to lose by acting. It reminds me of this quote You could take a million detours to your destination and still get there faster than someone who never got in the car. And that's the idea I really want to leave you with today. Uncertainty in our twenties is inevitable, but it's actually a really profound sign that you're expanding and you are growing, and you're reaching new spaces you haven't yet experienced. That's a good thing, like congratulations. If you're feeling uncertain, that is such a beautiful sign. And I wish I could give you all the applause for just trying and pushing yourself into new places and spaces. I know it feels uncomfortable, but I promise you that this discomfort has a purpose that you cannot yet see. Lean into it, assign it a purpose while you're waiting, and just act. Do anything, even if it's small things. I think that that's a great solution for avoiding a worse discomfort of looking back at your life and realizing that you never did anything because you were scared of the unknown, When the unknown is something that we always have to exist side by side with and the only way to escape the unknown is to create a known, is to create a reality that you do really enjoy and that works for you. And the other way you can do that is through action. So that's a rather simple message, but also deeply complex message. If you think about it. To end the episode with, I just hope that it brings you a sense of comfort that you're not the only one going through it, and then I totally know it's going to work out for you. It's totally going to work out for you. I know that I can give you that promise right now. So thank you so much for listening. If you have made it this far, let's leave a little emoji in the comments below that represents how you're feeling about your life, how uncertainty feels in your body right now, just so I know if you've made it this far. If you're one of the loyal listeners, make sure that you are following along or subscribed wherever you're listening on YouTube, on Spotify, Apple, whatever, one and give us a five star review if you feel called to do so. It really does help the show grow and reach new audiences. New fantastic, wonderful, twenty somethings and older also make sure you're following us on Instagram at that Psychology podcast. If you want to be part of future episodes, if you want to DM me episode suggestions, if you have questions dilemmas, you may even be able to be featured in an episode just like this one. So follow me over there, and until next time, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself, especially in the face of uncertainty. We will talk very very soon.