Fearless: Former FBI Leader Gina L. Osborn on Power, Labels & Leadership

[SPEAKER_01]: today on Misunderstood with Rachel Yucatan.
[SPEAKER_00]: As a girl in her 20s, I was chasing spies literally across Europe and BMWs and outies and undercover and Mercedes.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were an assistant special agent in charge of the FBI.
[SPEAKER_00]: What would it like breaking into that world?
[SPEAKER_00]: I got into the FBI in 1996.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was definitely in a quote unquote a man's world.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I rose up through the ranks, I was still more often than not the only woman in the room of the high level executives.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you look at China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia, they have armies of people who are doing this all day, every day trying to get into our systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: The next major war that's gonna happen, is to take out our power, take out our water.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very, very real.
[SPEAKER_00]: I did a lot in my law enforcement career.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a $200 million contract with three law enforcement agencies, and I found that they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wound up going to the inspector general, and I was fired.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you choose that hill that you're willing to die on, sometimes that hill chooses you.
[SPEAKER_01]: There is a very specific moment that happens to women in positions of power.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the moment when competence stops being admired and starts being threatening.
[SPEAKER_01]: My guest today knows that moment very well.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gina Osborn spent nearly three decades inside some of the most male-dominated high-stakes institutions in the country.
[SPEAKER_01]: First, in a US Army counterintelligence, then rising to one of the highest leadership roles a woman can hold in the FBI.
[SPEAKER_01]: She led counterterrorism teams, cybercrime investigations, organized crime units, work where fear is real, consequences are permanent, and leadership isn't theoretical.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yet, even at that level, Gina wasn't immune to being misunderstood, because one of woman leads with certainty instead of softness when she speaks plainly instead of performing like ability, when she refuses to apologize for authority, the narrative shifts.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's no longer strong, she's too much, she's difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's labelled a mean girl in a system that rewards silence and compliance.
[SPEAKER_01]: This episode isn't about climbing the ladder, it's actually about questioning who built it, and who was never meant for it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk about what fearless leadership actually looks like, not the Instagram version, but leading while scared on popular and under scrutiny.
[SPEAKER_01]: We unpack why insecure systems punish women who don't play along,
[SPEAKER_01]: how internalized competition shows up in high pressure environments and why explaining yourself to people committed to misunderstanding you is a losing game.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gina now hosts her own podcast called Making Maverick Moves, where she challenges outdated leadership models and pushes for something more honest, more human and more effective.
[SPEAKER_01]: This conversation is for anyone who's ever been told to tone it down, anyone who's watched less capable leadership rise because it felt safer, and anyone who's ready to stop leaning in and start taking the damn seat.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is Gina Osborn, and this is Miss Understood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sheena, thank you so much for joining me today on Miss Understit.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's such a pleasure to have you here, especially with your background on the morning that the announcement of Diddy's, you know, what's happening with him has just come out.
[SPEAKER_01]: So can we actually start by talking about that?
[SPEAKER_01]: It looks like he beat the most serious charge, but he was found guilty on two of five of the charges.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you walk me through that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so the racketeering and the sex trafficking, he did not, he was not found guilty, but on the transportation across state lines for prostitution, he was.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's going to significantly decrease any sort of jail time that he was looking at.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you think there's a chance he might get out very soon?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, the judge is looking at that today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the judge has planned to make a decision on that today.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very likely because I think he's already been in jail for about a year.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know how much time he's looking at, but he may even get out and have time served and that could be the end of that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it'll be interesting to see what the sensing looks like for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: This will be very interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Needless to say, all right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have such an extensive background, which I already alluded to in my intro, but I would like to hear from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Give me an idea of how you even got into this.
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell me about your childhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: What did you want to be?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you know you would ever get into something that had to do with law enforcement, army stuff, like counter terrorism, like all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, as a young child and a teenager, I always say that I wanted to be this international woman of intrigue.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was absolutely fascinated with everything that was going on in the Cold War, so I'm gonna date myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: The CIA versus the KGB and all of these spy things, that was something that absolutely fascinated me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to work for the CIA and in my second year of college,
[SPEAKER_00]: I had run out of money.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to a community college.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know how I was going to make it to a four-year university to get my degree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was a cocktail waitress at a comedy club.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one night I was at the college.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm sitting in the library.
[SPEAKER_00]: And a young man came up and started talking to me and telling me about the Army's counterintelligence program, how I can live overseas, how I can have the condos, everything private Benjamin, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the next day I went down to the Army recruiter and I signed up and about nine months later I was eating dirt at Fort Jackson, South Carolina and basic training.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh, and did you absolutely love it and were you learning all these new things you never thought you would or where you like this is a mistake?
[SPEAKER_00]: No, well, going through the basic training, my dad was a marine and so I kind of was raised like a boy.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the biggest joke that God played on my dad was giving him two girls.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so my sister went into construction and I went into the army.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, the, the, the, the
[SPEAKER_00]: basic training wasn't that drastic for me because I kind of grew up with that, but yeah, I was very, very fortunate the way that it went because I wound up my first assignment was in Belgium, which, um, funny enough, that's where private Benjamin was assigned at the Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, and then the next three and a half years I was in Frankfurt, Germany, and I was assigned to the Specialized Team that investigated the highest profile espionage cases.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as a girl in her 20s, I was chasing spies literally across Europe and BMWs and outies and undercover in Mercedes and it was just really, really a fascinating time in history.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you are an assistant special agent in charge of the FBI, which is one of the highest positions of women can hold in that space.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would it like breaking into that world?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I was the Assistant Special Agent and Characters Cyber and Computer Forensics in the L.A. office.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, I was in the military from 87 to 92, and then I got into the FBI in 1996.
[SPEAKER_00]: And back then,
[SPEAKER_00]: about 14 percent of all of the special agents were women, so there weren't a whole lot of us out there.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, it was interesting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was definitely in quote unquote a man's world working in a male dominated field.
[SPEAKER_00]: My first assignment was working Asian organized crime and little side on here in Orange County, California on an all-male task force.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so being the only woman in the room, my definitely got used to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when I rose up
[SPEAKER_00]: even right before I retired, I was still more often than not the only woman in the room of the high level executives.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, you definitely get used to it.
[SPEAKER_01]: At what point in your career did you realize that like being good at your job wasn't necessarily enough?
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a lot of perception going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: You had to sort of perform in a different level.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, early on I had that perfectionism where I felt everything I had to do had to be 10 times better than the men or else blah, blah, blah, but as I became more experienced, I realized that all that was was in my head and I was just holding myself back.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, the things that we say in our heads, those types of stereotypes, I think that we're giving them to ourselves because the voices in our heads are the loudest.
[SPEAKER_00]: As I look back, if I put more pressure on myself, then was necessary because I was competent.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was good at what I did and I was accepted in the workplace.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: But do you think, I mean, to be accepted, I think, is pretty, you know, that's not necessarily how it always works.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like sometimes men would tend to, or other people in general men women, whatever would tend to undercut you women because they're jealous men because they just think they can do it better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you were doing these jobs that were pretty exceptional, you know, do you find that that is a normal thing that you see that that people just accept that or they give you a harder time as a woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think I think let's go back to my childhood a little bit when my parents got a divorce when I was young and my mom was left with my sister and me to take care of.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she had been a hairdresser before she got married.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so 13 years later, she's, you know, got these two young kids.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she wound up choosing to go into real estate, which was really, really risky in the 1970s because not a lot of women were doing real estate number one.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, here she, she was a commission-based situation and she wasn't getting alimone.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so my mom went out there and in her first year selling houses that were $35,000 to peace, she wound up making it into the million dollar club by selling over a million dollars in property.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I think I had a really, really great,
[SPEAKER_00]: role model.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we never really had that in our house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was funny when I was in the army and basic training.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got pulled out of bed in the middle of the night to go paint the first sergeant's office, something that happened from time to time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the other women in my platutes started talking about the glass ceiling.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was something that
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't even know about.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so really, I think that if we buy into all of these things that were supposedly told or we learn, that really slows us down.
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think maybe I had blinders on because I was so busy doing my job as great as I can, creating these really, really big cases that I didn't have the time and the energy that would put in to really doubting myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, you obviously have so many lessons that you can teach from being in those positions, which I do want to get into, but I want to go back to talking about a little bit about your experience because it's so fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: You were talking about investigating espionage at the end of the cold war, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: What were some of the biggest threats that you were tracking and how do you think the espionage tactics have changed since then?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well back then, it was before it was with the Soviet Union, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: We knew who our who our enemy was before, you know, the wall came down actually.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so, so the, and then remember, we didn't have cell phones, we didn't have all of the technology that we have today.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, those, you know, Cold War,
[SPEAKER_00]: tactics that the Soviets used, the dead drops, and all of those things, that was heavy in play in the 80s, which was actually the decade of the spy.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the biggest case that I worked while I was there, and the case agent on the case was my role model who was a woman.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was the Albert
[SPEAKER_00]: blowing the studs out of his, you know, into the sky.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, and he was back in bum holder Germany trying to sell troop deployment information where his, his, his, his people were.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a really fascinating time to follow him and we did a sting operation and got him into a hotel room.
[SPEAKER_00]: He thought that he was meeting with the Middle Eastern entity.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he sold his soul for $3,000 and wound up getting 34 years in prison.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no way.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I feel like well, this could be, this is what movies are made of.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was across the street from in his housing community.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was in an apartment across the street and they told me it was nighttime and they told me that they were going to arrest him at the gate.
[SPEAKER_00]: coming on to his, his housing complex, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm like so disappointed because I had been locked up in this apartment for a week, you know, and I was just waiting because did be able to see an actual spy get arrested as something that
[SPEAKER_00]: ah, that's all I wanted.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was looking in the distance thinking, okay, maybe I could see some lights or something or hear a siren.
[SPEAKER_00]: And instead, he pulled up in front of his house and that's where they wound up arresting him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so yeah, that was one of the two top moments of my law enforcement career to actually be able to see someone who had been, you know, committing us being nauseated arrested.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about your time in Los Angeles.
[SPEAKER_01]: What kind of cyber threats were you seeing that the public had no idea about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh gosh.
[SPEAKER_00]: So computer intrusions, national security, computer intrusions, one of the big cases that we worked was the hack of Sony Pictures in 2014 by North Korea.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was really fascinating because North Korea used psychological
[SPEAKER_00]: Sony pictures and to remind everyone what it was all about.
[SPEAKER_00]: There was a movie called the interview and I think it was Seth Rogan and James Franco and at the end of the movie I don't want to spoil it for anyone but they depicted the supreme leader of North Korea.
[SPEAKER_00]: in a very, very, very unpleasant light.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the North Koreans were not happy about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, so one day, it was like, I think the Monday before Thanksgiving and 2014, all of the Sony pictures and employees come to work around the world, and they see a skull and cross bones on their computer.
[SPEAKER_00]: Their network had been completely compromised.
[SPEAKER_00]: And all of their information on their network had been taken and about every two or three days.
[SPEAKER_00]: They were putting out different batches of things that had been on their network like emails from the top people.
[SPEAKER_00]: it's only saying not very nice things and employee information, their social security numbers, type of information.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was really fascinating to see how this computer intrusion turned into this absolute catastrophic event on U.S. oil.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it just goes to show what they're capable of.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's funny in watching just shows on Netflix.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Grey's Anatomy and the resident, they're both, you know, obviously surrounding hospitals.
[SPEAKER_01]: They both talk about the networks being hacked and somebody asking for $10 million ransom to turn on the computers again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do these things really happen as much as they're showing them?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, I think they happen more because companies don't want it to get out that these things are happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, in fact, I ran, they had attacked or tried to attack a hospital.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we would see it all the time with regard to the ransomware's, the business email compromise where, you know, they go, they identify who the financial person is and a big corporation,
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, get into the system and make it look like an email going from the CEO to the financial person saying, hey, I need you to, you know, get $10 million over here, but we have to do it right now because blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people are doing it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if they do it voluntarily,
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't get that money back, but the FBI is if you reported to the FBI within a really short amount of time, the FBI may be able to get that money back, but if it's been a couple of days, then forget about it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that happens all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I was also in charge of the Crimes Against Children Program for seven years.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that was really near and dear to my heart, because it
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a whole other world that we don't want to think about, but there are FBI agents and analysts working this day and in day out looking at this material that would just wreck all of us if we ever saw any of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they save kids every day and so that was a really great time.
[SPEAKER_01]: meaning like sex trafficking and stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So sex trafficking, but also with the child pornography, you would be surprised at how many predators are out there trying to get our children.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there were cases here and all across the country where you hear about these little girls
[SPEAKER_00]: falling in love with some predator and then the predator comes and picks him up and it's just a horrible story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we don't need to see it on to catch a predator.
[SPEAKER_01]: Remember that show?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love that show.
[SPEAKER_00]: Love that show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember the episode where the guy showed it up with his five-year-old kid?
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you see that up his- Oh my gosh.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have her pants and on my show and we talked a lot about stuff like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now he has his own network, but people like feel like they don't really believe that that stuff happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: It happens all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It happens all the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the one thing I wanted to go back to a series again, another stupid show that I'm watching that I just finished called Zero Day.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you're familiar with this.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about a cyber hack that happens, and it happens for one minute, I guess, throughout the entire all of the nation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it turns off everything from lights to transportation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So airplanes go down, cars get hit, trains hit each other, and there was like, you know, 3500 deaths within this one minute, and it happened internally.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was, you know, they thought it was Russia and it ends up being an
[SPEAKER_01]: But is that something that should keep people up at night that something like this could happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more than just somebody wanting money from, you know, turning down, you know, the software at a health care center.
[SPEAKER_01]: It could be bigger than that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, is there something that keeps you up at night still?
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if our critical infrastructure is attacked through a cyber attack, absolutely, it could happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: It has happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there are a lot of different, you know, incidents of it happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you look at China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia, I mean, it's not that they just have a few people sitting in a room doing this.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have armies of people who are doing this all day, every day, trying to get into our systems.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because really when you think of the next major war that's done happen, I mean, what's the best way to drop us to our knees is to take out our power, take out our water.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, create a kinetic attack where you're right, trains run into each other.
[SPEAKER_00]: It is very, very, very real.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I mean, I don't want to keep everybody happy tonight, but it is definitely a real threat.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And being in that department is it's something that we are very aware of and some people, a huge scheme of people are also working to keep them out.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the military, they have their cyber program, the FBI has their cyber programs.
[SPEAKER_00]: So and I was very, very fortunate to work with some of the best people in the business.
[SPEAKER_00]: These amazing,
[SPEAKER_00]: chess players, you know, what I would call them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we're very, very fortunate to have such really talented people working on our side.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, there are adversaries trying to get into our systems as we speak.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we really have to be vigilant.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what I would always tell people and I still tell people is, you're only as strong as your weakest link.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you've got an employee
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, gets an email and then they decide to click on that link, that's how you get the malicious software into your system.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we really have to be careful about, you know, who were who were interacting with make sure that they are the people who are sending us these emails, but really think twice before you click on a link because that's where it all begins.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, there's the term that the Navy SEALs use called Easy Day and looking back at your FBI career.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the most high stakes or high pressure operation you were part of and how did you find that you could lead through it and the lessons that you learned from it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, you know, you know what's funny is of all of the time that I spent 28 years in law enforcement between the military and the FBI.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say the most violence and the most
[SPEAKER_00]: chaos and crisis and change that I dealt with when I was the Chief Safety and Security Officer at L.A. Metro.
[SPEAKER_00]: I saw more violence in my first week at L.A. Metro on our system than I did in my entire 28 year career.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what I do when I'm speaking, I do keynote speaking as well as training and you know there are three things that you do when you're leading through
[SPEAKER_00]: chaos crisis and change.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is one thing that I implemented when I got to LA Metro.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing we had to do was get the water out of the boat.
[SPEAKER_00]: I came in right after the pandemic at the end of the pandemic 2022 that there had been no fair enforcement or a code of conduct enforcement on the system for two solid years.
[SPEAKER_00]: The unhoused were sheltering on the system.
[SPEAKER_00]: There were so many
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, we just had to keep our eye on the ball and get the water out of the boat.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's kind of triaging to, you know, stop the bleeding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to do that and you have to surround yourself with a great team.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's really really important because the last thing that you want to do when you're dealing with a crisis is to have somebody who is adding more crisis than chaos.
[SPEAKER_00]: into your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you want those people to be sitting in the next room while you're, you know, surrounded by your team.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and really having that vision is to what it's going to look like when you've made that change.
[SPEAKER_00]: But you really have to get the buy-in from all of the people around you to be able to make that change happen.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so those are the three things that I tell people, you know, when they're leading through a crisis.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can do it, but you can't be concerned about getting your holes fixed in the boat, painting the boat, putting accessories on your beautiful boat, get the water out of the boat first, and then that's when you can build and make things better.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talk a lot about fearless leadership, not the absence of fear, but action despite it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you talk about a time where you led when you were pretty terrified, but you got through it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh you know all the time and that's you know that's what I when I talk about making Maverick moves that Maverick move in order to get to your breakthrough success you know that's when you come up against a door and you may be afraid you may be intimidated you may be confused but you push through anyway and I kind of talk about how you know like in the FBI when we go
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so we're out there at ODARC 30.
[SPEAKER_00]: We've done our homework.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know who lives there in the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know what the house looks like.
[SPEAKER_00]: We know what we're going to do once we get into the house.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we stack up a bunch of agents get together and then we're heading towards the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is a point where there's no turning back.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have that option.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going through that door.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you don't know if the suspect is a sleep upstairs and bed or laying in weight with a gun pointed at the door.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's when you go through anyway, and that's what I tell entrepreneurs and other people who want that breakthrough success is that you have to believe in yourself enough to know that you're trained, that you know what you're doing, and what you believe that you're going to make it
[SPEAKER_00]: through.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if you get on the other side of the door and have to deal with a threat or or something that doesn't go as planned, you have that ability to pivot.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of people don't make it through that door to the breakthrough success because they stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when you presented to yourself like, okay, I don't have the option not to stop.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go through no matter what.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's when we find our breakthrough success.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to talk about women and leadership because I know you talk a lot about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: What inspired your philosophy that mean girls don't make leaders?
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that came up.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wrote an article on LinkedIn about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had just been at my friend's house in Arizona, the lady that I spoke about the case agent on the Albert Samble Lake case.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was 10 years older than I was.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was in the military during the time when we had the women army corps, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you know, she is definitely a trailblazer.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I went, she had a surgery and I went to take care of her, but then she introduced me to her other friend who was the first female parent trooper in the army.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she has dementia.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so my friend had gone to Georgia, picked her up, put her into a care facility near her and had planned to take care of her for the rest of her life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then as I was leaving this experience and really recognizing, you know what, this is what Sisterhood is all about, you know, willing to have your back and these are the women who came before me, who made sure that, you know, my road was a little bit more clear for me to walk through and then someone had reached out to me and told me about how she was getting ready to leave this agency that she's with because of this mean girl gang.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it really got me thinking about how, you know, it is a luxury for these women to have these mean girl gangs.
[SPEAKER_00]: And really, I mean, it's kind of akin to the old boys network, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The mean girl gang is based on the imposter syndrome in security and really, really poor leadership because they feel like they have to put people down in order to make themselves look better.
[SPEAKER_00]: They did not do what they did in order to make it easier for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: just so that you can tear other women down.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so I wrote that article because we really have to get back to that sisterhood because it doesn't serve anybody.
[SPEAKER_00]: All it does is take away all of the hard work and believe me, I saw a lot in my career.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my friend saw a lot in her career.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so in order to pay homage to the people who made your road a little easier, we need to be better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do your thoughts on?
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, listen, as a female working was a lot of males, I find that I always have to be very careful of my tone because people don't hear what I'm saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'll just hear my tone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whereas if it was a man talking, he would be seen as powerful and smart in all these different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I know you've run into this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, like, how can women lead unapologetically without being seen as difficult or bitchy?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, all these words that
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but is, is there evidence of all of this or is this what we're telling ourselves?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because believe me, I am a six foot blonde.
[SPEAKER_00]: I am a force to be reckoned with when I'm out there working with men.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yes, did, did I experience that, you know, back in the 80s and the 90s?
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: But what I learned was, you need to take me for who I, you know, if you have an ego problem that you can't, you are an intimidated by me, that's not my problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we just really need to look for, because we have these assumptions about, okay, this is why they're treating me in this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But is it, you know, and are we holding ourselves back, maintaining that thought process?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a badass, Rachel.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can act however you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we just have to look at those assumptions and look, okay, is there evidence about this?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or is this just their problem?
[SPEAKER_00]: And am I accommodating them or changing the way I do things just so that they can feel better?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a really good point because I think most people would be like, say the opposite almost when you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, if you take your job seriously, you know you're good at it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, just be that person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Be that bald babe.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, you know, that's their problem if they can't handle how you handle work and how you get shit done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but we also have to be collaborative and, you know, and we also have to take other people's opinions.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if if this happens all the time, then maybe we need to reflect and say, okay, maybe I need to take a different approach.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, we don't want automatically think that or put that in our brain and start thinking about it because otherwise that's just going to slow us down.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think systems of power get wrong about how leadership should look especially for women?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when I, yeah, so I think what we get wrong is thinking that our superpowers aren't enough.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'll tell you, so I got into cyber.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no.
[SPEAKER_00]: computer skills really aptitude will say I do have cyber certifications but I mean and I wound up getting into cyber because I was on the FBI's inspection staff and I raised my hand and volunteered to inspect the cyber program and then all of a sudden because I was the only one who volunteered I wound up doing all of them and then that gave me subject matter expertise on priorities and things like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But when I became the Assistant Special Agent and Charge for Cyber and Computer Forensics, I showed up and because I had learned from mostly men, I had this lead from the front mentality for leadership, but then I found, as I'm surrounded by all of these cyber geniuses, that
[SPEAKER_00]: I would lead from the front and nobody was following me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I thought, okay, well, you know, technology expertise is currency here and I have nothing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that was really when I started to lead authentically, I started to have to take inventory.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, what are my superpowers?
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm great at communication.
[SPEAKER_00]: solving problems, getting money, you know, I have all of these things, and I think a lot of us, and once I started leading with those things, that's when the squad supervisors and their agents started coming to me because I had something to offer them.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I always tell women, look at your superpowers, and instead of focusing on what you're not good at,
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, it's patients.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have no patients whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_00]: No matter how much time I spend on having more patients, I'm never going to be the most patient person in the world.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if I really focus on the things that I am good at, that's where I'm going to shine and I'm going to create my leadership behind the things that I'm really good at.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so what I tell women.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, find out what your superpowers are, get really, really good at those, and, and that's, that's going to be the basis from your leadership for your leadership.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like a lot of women get tripped up with people that are committed to just not understanding us, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not understanding where we're going to.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is it important to stop explaining ourselves to these people that are committed to misunderstanding what, who we are and what we're doing?
[SPEAKER_00]: because all it does is slow us down.
[SPEAKER_00]: All it does is slow us down.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you are constantly trying to appease other people, think of all of the energy that goes into that, and then, of course, someone's going to say something, and then you're going to get mad, and then you're going to call all your friends and say, hey, did you hear what someone's so said to me, and then you're going to be up all night, plotting that person's demise?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, think of all that energy that you just spent,
[SPEAKER_00]: when you could be working on whatever project you're working on to make your next maverick move, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think we really have to take inventory as to what are we spending our time and energy bomoning and put that aside, put it in a box.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can come back to it later, but right now, focus on where you want to find your breakthrough success and don't let anything derail you.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is something you wish more young women knew about rising through male-dominated spaces?
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, it's not about them, you know, I mean, I think we really make a lot of stuff about ourselves and and the injustice of it all, but if it's if we look at it as this is business and how do I fit into this business and how am I going to be successful in this business?
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's a great book called The Four Agreements.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've heard of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm glad to hear.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where they talk about
[SPEAKER_00]: be, you know, taking things personally is like the most selfish thing that you could possibly do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, when we do that and we all do, you know, from time to time, all that is is just that energy draw that's taking it away from us having breakthrough success.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell people about your podcast making Maverick Moves?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, making Maverick moves.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, a Maverick move is when you're afraid, but you go forward anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: And my first guest was the L.A. City Fire Chief.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I remarkably, I had interviewed her before the fires.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I talked to her in November, and I asked her, I said, so what tell me about a maverick move that you made?
[SPEAKER_00]: First female fire chief in the city of Los Angeles, remarkable individual, remarkable human.
[SPEAKER_00]: And she said, Gina, my maverick move, I'm doing it right now, because I don't have the resources to do my job.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so fast forward to the fires where she went out and really made her maverick move by calling out the mayor about how, you know, she had the, she's not getting the funding that she needs in order to be able to fight these fires.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then two days before I launched my podcast, she was fired.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I understand, you know, those are the type of people that,
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to talk to you because I want people to learn from, you know, there are consequences from making maverick moves, but sometimes, you know, when you choose that hill that you're willing to die on, sometimes that hill chooses you.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, and that's what makes...
[SPEAKER_00]: us remarkable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why I want to I bring people onto my podcast who talk about you know the maverick moves that they make and you know the things that are getting in their way and the things that they do in order to push through and I just want to inspire people and really continue my service to help people get to where they want to go.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in that same vein what would you say is one of your biggest maverick moves that you've done
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think just, you know, I did a lot in my law enforcement career, but got me fired from LA Metro was the fact that I found
[SPEAKER_00]: law enforcement there was a $200 million contract with three law enforcement agencies and I found that they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wound up going to the inspector general and I was fired after that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so yeah, so that was a hill that I was willing to die on because after I got fired, I wound up the LA Metro had this big surge in crime and
[SPEAKER_00]: stabbing and shootings it was just horrible and you know speaking out to help LA Metro get their own police department because that's something that I'd worked on for for two years before that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know that was definitely I you know I I've always talked about the hell you're willing to die on but that was the hell I was willing to die on because you know that position was really a calling for me just as much as my law enforcement career because you have writers who are dependent
[SPEAKER_00]: on the transportation system, and it being safe, as well as those front line employees, those bus operators who are getting assaulted.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, so I definitely found out what the consequences were of doing that, but I think it's made me a stronger person, and it really put me on this
[SPEAKER_00]: do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, you know, we have to understand that consequences come with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_01]: What a story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, in all your experience and all the things you kind of know that we don't know, are there?
[SPEAKER_01]: What, what threats are real right now that the average person might not be thinking about?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know we talked about cyber threats, but is there something that we don't, we're like not even aware that we should be nervous about?
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think, I had, I just had a guest on my podcast and we talked about bullying and we talked a little bit about cyber bullying.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I think, given cell phones, giving cell phones to kids is a threat.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think parents are really not looking at it from a perspective that
[SPEAKER_00]: you need to have an agreement with your kids and make them sign an agreement when you hand over the cell phone, which means they know that this cell phone does not belong to them, it belongs to the parents.
[SPEAKER_00]: They have to, there's a code of conduct on the cell phone, because so many times, I mean, you would never allow some strange person to come into your
[SPEAKER_00]: bedroom alone with them while you're home.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're doing that by allowing them to have access to all of these chat rooms and all of the social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there are so many dangers for kids, you know, not to mention the predators, but also the bullying and also, you know, trying to look so great on social media.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's one thing that, that, that
[SPEAKER_00]: parents should really be aware of that they really need a dial back on this free for all that we're having with these kids and and these electronic devices because they're really a danger to our kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's so true.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've at 13-year-olds, and like when I try to take her phone away, it's like she turns into a tear-adactal.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like she's so committed to this phone, that's the only way she can connect with anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone, I mean, she could barely get through a meal without, you know, just from having a normal conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So now I've made it this rule that we have to have a conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, as a typical 13-year-old, Kicks or Headbacks, she's like, oh my God, like I'm stabbing her by saying,
[SPEAKER_01]: have a normal conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: How was your day?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, being a terrorist to her.
[SPEAKER_01]: It is funny, but you know, she goes on, one of these games, Roblox or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she does now tell me, you know, she's interacting with people.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, oh, yeah, I know mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not another 13 year old kid.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like some person and Ghana somewhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I'm fully aware.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's made her grow up faster.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I almost thought it was a good thing when TikTok almost
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, you know, I get asked all the time by random people to be calling our senators and things being passed here in Florida about not letting kids bring phones into schools up to a certain age and I sign all these things and it never happens and no one cares.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it just seems very odd to me that people all agree that these phones are totally dangerous, but no one really does anything about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the kids, they're so used to it from when their babies that they just, they really don't see how it's terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they don't get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a very uphill battle, it's really hard.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't even know how you fix it, I really don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it is very, very scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, it is and I mean, I've unfortunately seen the really, really dark side of it where kids have committed suicide as a result of someone they fall in love with who winds up being a 40 year old man and this happens and that happens, you know, the bullying aspect of it, but yeah, we really, really, you know, I highly recommend putting monitors.
[SPEAKER_00]: checking up, making sure your kids know that you're checking on them.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I know, but by the time they're 13, it might be, you know, a big shift if we decide to start doing this now.
[SPEAKER_00]: But, you know, before you give your kid that up cell phone, make sure that they're, they're ground rules.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they understand those ground rules because, um, yeah, I mean, our kids, there, there is definitely threats, um, and having worked crimes against children for seven years.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can tell you that they're real.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and again, I had a guy on about sex trafficking and people think this is something that happens like in other countries, not ours or, you know, you go to Las Vegas and you see all the signs, but in the stalls of the bathrooms, but you kind of don't assume it has anything to do with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, no, this is you.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are your kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are, these are people that you know and it is the biggest threat no one knows it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he done that.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was, he was saying that was the scariest thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: What are you still learning about leadership even now?
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, you know, implementing your vision as a leader, it just has so many moving parts, but what I've learned as a leader is that you really have to get that buy-in and empower your people.
[SPEAKER_00]: You hear so much about micromanagement or, you know, when you're the boss, you want to done a certain way.
[SPEAKER_00]: But all that does is rob that creativity from your people.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it doesn't empower them to want to do great things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And really, when you look at the great things that are happening in this world, I can tell you, nine times at a ten, they're going to be coming from a team of people whose leader empowered them.
[SPEAKER_00]: to do these great things.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I lead and that's how, I mean, I didn't always lead that way because of course, you know, when you're a brand new leader, you're going to micromanage and you want to make sure that, you know, nothing goes wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: But even, you know, when I look back on my career, especially with the FBI, what my legacy is, my legacy were these young supervisors coming up.
[SPEAKER_00]: behind me that I allowed them to make mistakes and, you know, they wanted to do something their way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I may, you know, give them, okay, well, maybe it looks think about what happens if you do it this way, but they were intent on doing it that way and they wound up in a rabbit hole, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I'm there to help them out of the rabbit hole.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so important to, and that's how you learn, you know, you learn through mistakes.
[SPEAKER_00]: So as leaders, we have to be, you know,
[SPEAKER_00]: understanding that sometimes mistakes are going to be made.
[SPEAKER_00]: We can't create such a standard that we're going to stifle people, but if we empower our people, as leaders, that's how we're going to find our great success.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And just because our show is called misunderstood, what do you think has been the most misunderstood thing about you throughout your career or your journey?
[SPEAKER_00]: Gosh, what has been the most misunderstood?
[SPEAKER_00]: Um,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I mean, it probably goes back to what we were talking about, you know, from the beginning, leading being in the military and learning how to lead from the front and then intimidating other people, but again, you know, I think you learn that that's not my that's not my problem that's their problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I think, you know, being a great, because believe me, I've been called it all.
[SPEAKER_00]: The B word, you know, aggressive, you know, two assertive to this, to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, you know, you just have to leave it behind because that again, that's their problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not my problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: You do speaking engagements.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're a TEDx speaker.
[SPEAKER_01]: Talk a little bit about where people can can listen to some of your speeches.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, so I, you know, so go to GNL Osborn.com.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got a sizzle reel that can show you of my speaking topics.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I really enjoy speaking to women's groups to empower them to be the best-late leaders that it can be.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, I love women in cyber because they're such unicorns, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there are so few women, you know, engineers and women who are working in the cyber industry, I just spoke at this world, cyber women in cyber conference and it was just really a lot of fun
[SPEAKER_00]: to see these women because that, yeah, they're definitely unicorns and I love to see how they solve their problems and get through their days and and lead it and be successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's a lot of fun.
[SPEAKER_01]: And making fabric moves comes out every Monday, tell people where they can find your podcast.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you can find us on Apple Spotify, your favorite podcast provider.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're also on YouTube and we have our shorts on TikTok.
[SPEAKER_01]: Amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And do you have any upcoming guests that are
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, gosh, my, my bullying, my, my maverick mom who she's coming out next week, she was really intense because her son was bullied and she made the maverick move of putting out a letter to all of the parents of the kids who are bullying her son out on social media and it was a beautiful story because an MMA fight.
[SPEAKER_00]: owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: He owns a studio reaches out to her reach out to her and said, hey, I want, you know, to give your son his power back and gave him free lessons.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a really beautiful story.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I just got chills.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then I have, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, for being an orange county.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have the housewives of Orange County and Tamara Judge.
[SPEAKER_00]: She had this blue peel.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if, uh,
[SPEAKER_00]: the Broadway universe is aware of it, but I had her plastic surgeon talking about that blue peel and all of the controversy that she went through to show the world how she was healing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's really fascinating too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'll have to listen.
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I cannot wait to see, you know, one of your
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, talks coming up and hopefully I actually have a couple of people I can think I can think of off the top of my head who you should have on your show because they are making maverick moves a will.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Please send a mark my way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I will.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gina it's been a pleasure.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for listening to Ms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Understood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm your host, Rachel, you could tell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five-star rating and review.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash Ms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Understood with Rachel, you could tell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have ideas for the show or wanna reach out email us at info, Ms.
[SPEAKER_01]: Understood podcast at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's spelled M-I-S-S-Understood.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much, and I'll see you next time.