Zootopia Exposed! (Part One)

1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,436
Speaker 1: Bushkin. On a recent snowy day, I took my four

2
00:00:25,476 --> 00:00:27,356
Speaker 1: and a half year old to a movie theater on

3
00:00:27,436 --> 00:00:31,396
Speaker 1: Manhattan's Upper West Side. This was only her second time

4
00:00:31,596 --> 00:00:35,956
Speaker 1: ever at the movies. She was very excited. I bought

5
00:00:35,956 --> 00:00:40,236
Speaker 1: her a large tub of popcorn. The theater was crowded.

6
00:00:41,436 --> 00:00:44,916
Speaker 1: We were there to see Disney's Zutopia Too, a film

7
00:00:44,956 --> 00:00:48,516
Speaker 1: that is now the highest grossing animated movie of all time.

8
00:00:49,316 --> 00:00:52,716
Speaker 1: We sat enraptured for the better part of two hours,

9
00:00:52,756 --> 00:00:55,156
Speaker 1: and at the end she turned to me and said,

10
00:00:55,516 --> 00:00:59,476
Speaker 1: thank you, Daddy, And I said to her, Oh, this

11
00:00:59,716 --> 00:01:03,996
Speaker 1: wasn't for you, this was for me. I'm an assignment.

12
00:01:07,636 --> 00:01:10,916
Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History,

13
00:01:11,116 --> 00:01:15,236
Speaker 1: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. The story I'm

14
00:01:15,276 --> 00:01:18,516
Speaker 1: about to tell you is the strangest Hollywood story you

15
00:01:18,556 --> 00:01:22,316
Speaker 1: have ever heard. It makes no sense, It invites all

16
00:01:22,356 --> 00:01:25,436
Speaker 1: manner of absurd speculation. It's going to take us two

17
00:01:25,516 --> 00:01:28,356
Speaker 1: episodes to unravel it, and even then your mind will

18
00:01:28,356 --> 00:01:30,796
Speaker 1: be in such a swirl that you will almost certainly

19
00:01:30,796 --> 00:01:35,156
Speaker 1: feel compelled to seize Utopia two for yourself. And if

20
00:01:35,196 --> 00:01:37,876
Speaker 1: you've already seen it, to grab any one of your

21
00:01:37,916 --> 00:01:41,796
Speaker 1: available children and see it again. And to whisper under

22
00:01:41,796 --> 00:01:46,636
Speaker 1: your breath when you think your little companion isn't listening. WTF.

23
00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:53,356
Speaker 1: All of this started when we got a call from

24
00:01:53,436 --> 00:01:56,836
Speaker 1: Angus Fletcher saying a friend of his needed to speak

25
00:01:56,876 --> 00:02:00,156
Speaker 1: to me. It was urgent. The friend had a story

26
00:02:00,196 --> 00:02:02,676
Speaker 1: to tell, a story with so many layers. The friend

27
00:02:02,756 --> 00:02:04,876
Speaker 1: said that there was no way to do it justice

28
00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:09,556
Speaker 1: in a single episode two minimum for future reference. If

29
00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:11,916
Speaker 1: you need to get my attention, this is the way

30
00:02:11,916 --> 00:02:14,636
Speaker 1: to do it, all right, can you hear me? They

31
00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:20,356
Speaker 1: are Gary, Angus. The gang is back together right away.

32
00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:22,716
Speaker 1: I hopped on a zoom with two of them.

33
00:02:22,996 --> 00:02:24,636
Speaker 2: If you want, I mean, I can tell you how

34
00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:27,716
Speaker 2: the story started, and then Gary, you wanna go?

35
00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:29,196
Speaker 3: Okay, all right? Jump in.

36
00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:32,556
Speaker 1: If you are a longtime listener of Revisionist History, you

37
00:02:32,596 --> 00:02:35,916
Speaker 1: will know the name Angus Fletcher. He's an English professor

38
00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:40,356
Speaker 1: at Ohio State and runs their narrative project. I love Angus.

39
00:02:40,636 --> 00:02:43,636
Speaker 1: I think Angus is a genius. Angus has been featured

40
00:02:43,796 --> 00:02:47,836
Speaker 1: on more Revisionist History episodes than anyone else. Our three

41
00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,676
Speaker 1: part rewrite of the Little Mermaid in Defense of Paw

42
00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,956
Speaker 1: patrol and and this is relevant to the story I'm

43
00:02:53,996 --> 00:02:56,556
Speaker 1: about to tell you. We did a series of episodes

44
00:02:56,556 --> 00:03:00,476
Speaker 1: a few years back called Development Hell, where we interviewed

45
00:03:00,556 --> 00:03:03,836
Speaker 1: screenwriters about their best idea that never made it to

46
00:03:03,876 --> 00:03:07,076
Speaker 1: the screen, and the Angus came on to talk about

47
00:03:07,436 --> 00:03:11,036
Speaker 1: an absolutely been nana sci fi project he worked on

48
00:03:11,076 --> 00:03:15,276
Speaker 1: with a good friend of his, the Hollywood screenwriter Gary Goldman.

49
00:03:15,916 --> 00:03:18,676
Speaker 1: And during that episode I concluded that not only is

50
00:03:18,716 --> 00:03:22,756
Speaker 1: Angus a genius, but Gary is a genius too. Anyway,

51
00:03:23,476 --> 00:03:24,876
Speaker 1: back to the matter at hand.

52
00:03:25,116 --> 00:03:28,156
Speaker 2: So basically I get a phone call from Gary, and

53
00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:30,436
Speaker 2: Gary and I are old friends. We brought together in

54
00:03:30,436 --> 00:03:32,596
Speaker 2: a bunch of screenwriting projects. Gary's one of the most

55
00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:35,356
Speaker 2: famous and eminent screenwriters in Hollywood. If you love the

56
00:03:35,556 --> 00:03:37,676
Speaker 2: end to Total Recall, you can thank Gary for that.

57
00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:41,396
Speaker 1: Gary Goldman grew up in the South. He was a

58
00:03:41,396 --> 00:03:45,276
Speaker 1: protege of the novelist Walker Percy, went to Brandeis, spent

59
00:03:45,396 --> 00:03:47,716
Speaker 1: some time working in a hospital in Israel during the

60
00:03:47,756 --> 00:03:51,876
Speaker 1: Yongkpur War, ended up in Hollywood and has worked with

61
00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:58,076
Speaker 1: everyone Paul Verhoeven, James Cameron Ridley, Scott, David Fincher, Steven Spielberg.

62
00:03:58,356 --> 00:04:00,476
Speaker 2: So Gary calls me up and he goes, Angus, have

63
00:04:00,556 --> 00:04:03,236
Speaker 2: you seen Disney's latest movie?

64
00:04:03,476 --> 00:04:03,676
Speaker 4: Here?

65
00:04:03,796 --> 00:04:07,476
Speaker 1: Angus is referring to the first Zotopia film, which came

66
00:04:07,516 --> 00:04:11,316
Speaker 1: out in twenty sixteen, featuring a rabbit named Judy Hops

67
00:04:11,516 --> 00:04:14,796
Speaker 1: and a con artist fox named Nick Wilde, who live

68
00:04:14,836 --> 00:04:18,476
Speaker 1: in a world inhabited entirely by animals, and who have

69
00:04:18,516 --> 00:04:21,716
Speaker 1: to work together to solve a mystery involving the disappearance

70
00:04:21,756 --> 00:04:27,156
Speaker 1: of predators. It's very good Zutopia, a gleaming city.

71
00:04:28,876 --> 00:04:33,196
Speaker 5: Were animals of all breeds, predator and prey alike, lived

72
00:04:33,196 --> 00:04:35,356
Speaker 5: together in peace and harmony.

73
00:04:35,996 --> 00:04:39,636
Speaker 1: Zutopia did very well. It grows to zillion dollars and

74
00:04:39,676 --> 00:04:43,316
Speaker 1: won the Oscar for Best Animated Feature. Gary watched all

75
00:04:43,316 --> 00:04:44,996
Speaker 1: this success closely.

76
00:04:44,876 --> 00:04:46,556
Speaker 3: And it's a big deal. I mean, it's a big family.

77
00:04:46,556 --> 00:04:48,236
Speaker 3: But I got to send you to pictures of us

78
00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:52,276
Speaker 3: drinking champagne when Zutopia won won the Academy Award. I mean,

79
00:04:52,516 --> 00:04:56,716
Speaker 3: this is our lost daughter who knew Yah was doing great.

80
00:04:57,196 --> 00:05:00,076
Speaker 1: Why was this such a big deal for Gary? Here's

81
00:05:00,076 --> 00:05:01,436
Speaker 1: what he told Angus.

82
00:05:01,636 --> 00:05:03,196
Speaker 2: And so he tells me the story of how he

83
00:05:03,236 --> 00:05:05,796
Speaker 2: goes to the Disney, how he pitched them this idea,

84
00:05:05,916 --> 00:05:08,196
Speaker 2: how he wrote it down on a physical document which

85
00:05:08,196 --> 00:05:10,916
Speaker 2: he gave to and he goes, I think they might

86
00:05:10,956 --> 00:05:13,876
Speaker 2: have stolen my idea. I said, what's on this document?

87
00:05:14,076 --> 00:05:16,836
Speaker 2: And Gary goes to me, okay, Well, in my pitch

88
00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:21,996
Speaker 2: it says, when you grow up, quote, if you want

89
00:05:22,036 --> 00:05:25,516
Speaker 2: to be an elephant, you can be an elephant. And

90
00:05:25,556 --> 00:05:29,156
Speaker 2: in Disney's movie, it says, quote you want to be

91
00:05:29,156 --> 00:05:32,076
Speaker 2: an elephant, when you grow up, you can be an elephant.

92
00:05:32,596 --> 00:05:35,036
Speaker 2: And in Gary's pitch it says, this is going to

93
00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:37,756
Speaker 2: take place in a land where quote an animal can

94
00:05:37,796 --> 00:05:40,836
Speaker 2: be whatever it wants to be. And in Disney's movie

95
00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:42,676
Speaker 2: it says this is going to take place in the

96
00:05:42,756 --> 00:05:46,836
Speaker 2: land where quote anybody can be anything. And then I

97
00:05:46,876 --> 00:05:49,716
Speaker 2: say to Gary, what is this land? And Gary says

98
00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:54,156
Speaker 2: to me, in my pitch, it's called Zootopia, And amazingly,

99
00:05:54,836 --> 00:05:58,436
Speaker 2: in the Disney movie, it's called Zootopia.

100
00:05:58,996 --> 00:06:03,316
Speaker 1: Wait, okay, so there's so many things to to to

101
00:06:03,556 --> 00:06:07,156
Speaker 1: pick up on. Gary, take me back to the beginning

102
00:06:07,196 --> 00:06:11,676
Speaker 1: about the origins of the idea of a movie called Zutopia.

103
00:06:12,196 --> 00:06:14,116
Speaker 1: What period of time are we talking about here.

104
00:06:14,476 --> 00:06:18,796
Speaker 3: Two thousand, two thousands, Yeah, I have two sons, and

105
00:06:18,876 --> 00:06:22,596
Speaker 3: my sons were I don't know, four and six, and

106
00:06:23,036 --> 00:06:25,316
Speaker 3: you know, at that time, you start thinking about, oh,

107
00:06:25,356 --> 00:06:28,236
Speaker 3: what can I do creatively that my kids can relate to?

108
00:06:30,076 --> 00:06:35,356
Speaker 3: And so I came up under interesting, very specific circumstances

109
00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:38,036
Speaker 3: with the idea for Zutopia. And I'll tell you when

110
00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:43,196
Speaker 3: I came up with the words utopia, I was elated,

111
00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:45,796
Speaker 3: and I ran into my house and I ran upstairs

112
00:06:45,836 --> 00:06:47,076
Speaker 3: and I talked to my wife. I said, you're not

113
00:06:47,116 --> 00:06:49,076
Speaker 3: going to believe. I've got the most incredible title. I've

114
00:06:49,076 --> 00:06:52,796
Speaker 3: got the most incredible idea. It's called Zutopia. You know,

115
00:06:52,916 --> 00:06:54,596
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't think it's such a great idea,

116
00:06:54,916 --> 00:06:57,156
Speaker 3: I said, trust me, trust me, it's a really it's

117
00:06:57,156 --> 00:07:02,116
Speaker 3: a really good name. In fact, we can't say this

118
00:07:02,156 --> 00:07:05,556
Speaker 3: word in front of the kids because if we say

119
00:07:05,556 --> 00:07:07,396
Speaker 3: this word in front of the kids, they're going to

120
00:07:07,396 --> 00:07:10,876
Speaker 3: go to school and they're the parents of these kids

121
00:07:10,916 --> 00:07:13,436
Speaker 3: are in show business, and then the word is going

122
00:07:13,516 --> 00:07:16,036
Speaker 3: to get out, and it's very hard to protect a title.

123
00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:18,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we just have to keep secrecy.

124
00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:20,036
Speaker 3: Yeah, we had to keep it secret.

125
00:07:26,156 --> 00:07:29,316
Speaker 1: Fast forward nine years, Goldman's doing a project with the

126
00:07:29,356 --> 00:07:33,036
Speaker 1: comic book legend stan Lee for Disney, and he goes

127
00:07:33,036 --> 00:07:35,476
Speaker 1: to the Disney exec he's working with and he says,

128
00:07:35,556 --> 00:07:38,876
Speaker 1: I have this idea, gives them an eight page outline

129
00:07:38,876 --> 00:07:42,476
Speaker 1: of the concept. It's called Looney. It's about an animator

130
00:07:42,516 --> 00:07:46,996
Speaker 1: who creates an animal world called Zootopia. He has drawings

131
00:07:46,996 --> 00:07:49,756
Speaker 1: of the animals who are going to inhabit the Zutopia world,

132
00:07:50,156 --> 00:07:54,156
Speaker 1: Roscoe the hyena, who is cynical and obnoxious, his ssidekick

133
00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:57,716
Speaker 1: Mimi the squirrel, who is cute and curvaceous and optimistic.

134
00:07:58,316 --> 00:08:00,956
Speaker 1: Goldman thinks that this is the best idea he's ever

135
00:08:00,996 --> 00:08:03,676
Speaker 1: had for a movie, and Angus agrees.

136
00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:05,796
Speaker 2: So first of all, I just want to point out

137
00:08:05,876 --> 00:08:08,316
Speaker 2: that you have the writer of Total Recall, which is

138
00:08:08,356 --> 00:08:10,876
Speaker 2: generally considered to be one of the greatest stories of

139
00:08:10,916 --> 00:08:15,036
Speaker 2: all time, telling you that Total Recall is nothing compared

140
00:08:15,076 --> 00:08:16,156
Speaker 2: to Zutopia.

141
00:08:16,316 --> 00:08:17,716
Speaker 3: So I should give you some indication.

142
00:08:18,236 --> 00:08:20,996
Speaker 2: And you know, Gary's legitimately a story genius. Why is

143
00:08:21,076 --> 00:08:23,596
Speaker 2: Zutopia so good? Well, because what you're really trying to

144
00:08:23,636 --> 00:08:27,436
Speaker 2: do with a story is not just create a plot.

145
00:08:27,476 --> 00:08:31,116
Speaker 2: You're trying to create a world. That's why Star Wars

146
00:08:31,156 --> 00:08:35,836
Speaker 2: is so brilliant, Because the movie great, But really what

147
00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:38,356
Speaker 2: you want is you want to wander around with lightsabers

148
00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:40,916
Speaker 2: and Darth Vader and the Force and the Jedi and

149
00:08:40,996 --> 00:08:42,996
Speaker 2: Lea and all that kind of stuff, And Zutobia is

150
00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:47,316
Speaker 2: exactly the same thing. Utopia is a mythic universe. When

151
00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:51,356
Speaker 2: Gary first told me this, he sent me a basically

152
00:08:51,476 --> 00:08:53,556
Speaker 2: a Bible, which went on for, you know, hundreds and

153
00:08:53,636 --> 00:08:56,196
Speaker 2: hundreds of slides explaining to me all this sort of

154
00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:59,276
Speaker 2: like complex mythography behind Utopia. So I'm not going to

155
00:08:59,316 --> 00:09:01,036
Speaker 2: pretend to be able to kind of expound that to

156
00:09:01,076 --> 00:09:03,156
Speaker 2: you here. It was like having a conversation with like

157
00:09:03,276 --> 00:09:06,716
Speaker 2: Joseph Campbell or something. But basically the point is is

158
00:09:06,756 --> 00:09:10,836
Speaker 2: that you have an entire universe in which these animals

159
00:09:12,316 --> 00:09:17,076
Speaker 2: are there to expose the lie that you can be

160
00:09:17,316 --> 00:09:18,676
Speaker 2: whatever it is that you want to be. I mean,

161
00:09:18,716 --> 00:09:21,516
Speaker 2: that's basically. The twist is that we are all told

162
00:09:21,756 --> 00:09:24,636
Speaker 2: these fables in America growing up, which is you can

163
00:09:24,676 --> 00:09:25,596
Speaker 2: be whatever you want to be.

164
00:09:25,836 --> 00:09:28,956
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Kerry, Yeah.

165
00:09:28,996 --> 00:09:31,276
Speaker 3: Well the idea here is all of us tell our

166
00:09:31,396 --> 00:09:34,036
Speaker 3: kids pretty much, or you have to decide whether or

167
00:09:34,036 --> 00:09:35,596
Speaker 3: not to tell your kids you can be whatever you

168
00:09:35,596 --> 00:09:38,356
Speaker 3: want to do when you grow up, and there's an

169
00:09:38,436 --> 00:09:41,276
Speaker 3: enormous pressure to say it, even though we know as

170
00:09:41,356 --> 00:09:46,316
Speaker 3: adults that's not exactly true. That's really kind of magical

171
00:09:46,396 --> 00:09:50,196
Speaker 3: thinking masquerading as good advice. So do you want to

172
00:09:50,236 --> 00:09:52,956
Speaker 3: send your kids out into the world knowing nothing except

173
00:09:53,036 --> 00:09:54,636
Speaker 3: you can be whatever you want to be? And then

174
00:09:54,676 --> 00:09:56,476
Speaker 3: you just go out there and try, try, try, try, try,

175
00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:58,556
Speaker 3: and then you encounter real life and you're not prepared

176
00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:01,676
Speaker 3: for it. On the other hand, if you don't teach

177
00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:04,036
Speaker 3: your kids that, they're going to be totally out competed

178
00:10:04,636 --> 00:10:07,476
Speaker 3: like all the other kids in the class who have

179
00:10:07,516 --> 00:10:09,076
Speaker 3: been told they can be whatever they want to be.

180
00:10:10,236 --> 00:10:15,836
Speaker 3: So I wanted to basically surround this these cliches of

181
00:10:16,716 --> 00:10:21,436
Speaker 3: conventional wisdom with ridiculous any cautionary tales about animals who

182
00:10:21,476 --> 00:10:22,956
Speaker 3: are told they can do whatever they want to be

183
00:10:23,356 --> 00:10:26,396
Speaker 3: and basically encounter the constraints that all of us encounter

184
00:10:26,476 --> 00:10:27,076
Speaker 3: in life.

185
00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:30,716
Speaker 1: The world where all this took place was z utopia.

186
00:10:31,676 --> 00:10:34,156
Speaker 1: Gary takes his idea to the executive he's working with

187
00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:38,516
Speaker 1: a Disney The executive, according to Goldman, basically says, this

188
00:10:38,636 --> 00:10:41,196
Speaker 1: is interesting. Should I give it to the folks over

189
00:10:41,236 --> 00:10:41,836
Speaker 1: to animation?

190
00:10:42,196 --> 00:10:45,956
Speaker 3: I said submit it. He said, okay, and I got

191
00:10:45,956 --> 00:10:48,036
Speaker 3: my papers together and I put it in the portfolio

192
00:10:48,076 --> 00:10:51,876
Speaker 3: and I handed it to him, and then I hear

193
00:10:51,996 --> 00:10:55,716
Speaker 3: from my agent they passed, you know, that's all. They passed.

194
00:10:56,116 --> 00:10:59,476
Speaker 1: Six years go by, and then one day Gary gets

195
00:10:59,516 --> 00:11:01,276
Speaker 1: a call from one of his sons.

196
00:11:02,116 --> 00:11:04,076
Speaker 3: Both of my sons are in the cardigether and they said,

197
00:11:05,196 --> 00:11:07,556
Speaker 3: they said, Dad, we're driving down the freeway and we

198
00:11:07,596 --> 00:11:09,636
Speaker 3: see a billboard and you're not going to believe it,

199
00:11:09,676 --> 00:11:14,356
Speaker 3: but it has your looney characters on it. I said,

200
00:11:14,356 --> 00:11:15,956
Speaker 3: my looney characters. What are you talking about?

201
00:11:16,116 --> 00:11:16,196
Speaker 5: Is?

202
00:11:16,396 --> 00:11:19,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, you're you're, You're there. It's a giant

203
00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:23,596
Speaker 3: billboard and it's got your characters on it. And I said,

204
00:11:23,756 --> 00:11:26,116
Speaker 3: that's it. Said what's the name of the movie, And

205
00:11:26,156 --> 00:11:31,716
Speaker 3: he says Utopia, And he had never heard the words Utopia.

206
00:11:31,756 --> 00:11:33,476
Speaker 3: He called me up to tell me that he'd seen

207
00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:41,596
Speaker 3: my Looney characters, So I know, I was flabber guested.

208
00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:46,356
Speaker 1: Obviously, the Goldmans go and sees Utopia at the Grove

209
00:11:46,396 --> 00:11:49,916
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. They can't believe it. As far as

210
00:11:49,956 --> 00:11:55,276
Speaker 1: Gary can tell, his character Roscoe, the cynical, obnoxious hyena,

211
00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:59,596
Speaker 1: has been turned into Nick Wilde, the cynical, obnoxious fox

212
00:12:00,116 --> 00:12:04,436
Speaker 1: and his optimistic, cravacious scirrel Mimi has become the optimistic,

213
00:12:04,476 --> 00:12:09,116
Speaker 1: cravacious rabbit. Judy Hops Goldman gets one of the biggest

214
00:12:09,196 --> 00:12:12,196
Speaker 1: and baddest of law firms, Quinn Emmanuel, to represent him.

215
00:12:12,596 --> 00:12:16,236
Speaker 1: Quin Emmanuel does not usually take suits like this, but

216
00:12:16,316 --> 00:12:19,356
Speaker 1: for Gary, they make an exception. That's how compelling his

217
00:12:19,476 --> 00:12:24,876
Speaker 1: case seems. So Quinn Emmanuel files a lawsuit claiming copyright infringement.

218
00:12:25,516 --> 00:12:29,916
Speaker 1: The case goes on for seven years. Everyone who is

219
00:12:30,036 --> 00:12:33,516
Speaker 1: anyone at Disney is to post. What's Disney's defense?

220
00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:33,916
Speaker 6: Is it?

221
00:12:33,956 --> 00:12:34,676
Speaker 1: They never saw it?

222
00:12:34,916 --> 00:12:36,156
Speaker 3: Yes, never saw it, because, so.

223
00:12:36,116 --> 00:12:38,916
Speaker 1: They claim, is a series of incredible coincidences.

224
00:12:39,236 --> 00:12:42,996
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, yes, called independent independent courage.

225
00:12:42,676 --> 00:12:45,276
Speaker 2: Just like I independently created Mickey Mouse the other day.

226
00:12:45,636 --> 00:12:47,956
Speaker 3: Yeah.

227
00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:53,036
Speaker 1: And what happens. Goldman loses, He appeals, loses again, He

228
00:12:53,156 --> 00:12:56,436
Speaker 1: switches to state court, loses. The courts find that the

229
00:12:56,476 --> 00:13:00,236
Speaker 1: similarities between Gary's idea and z Utopia didn't look like

230
00:13:00,316 --> 00:13:04,356
Speaker 1: copyright infringement, and the case is dismissed before the courts

231
00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:07,556
Speaker 1: ever get to the question of whether Disney actually used

232
00:13:07,556 --> 00:13:12,316
Speaker 1: Goldman's pitch. So the Goldmans give up the fight.

233
00:13:13,316 --> 00:13:15,796
Speaker 3: Yeah.

234
00:13:16,156 --> 00:13:19,436
Speaker 1: Now, there are a million things to say here. The

235
00:13:19,476 --> 00:13:22,236
Speaker 1: first is that it isn't surprising that Goldman loses his

236
00:13:22,276 --> 00:13:26,796
Speaker 1: copyright case against Disney. It's almost impossible under current case

237
00:13:26,876 --> 00:13:29,116
Speaker 1: law for a writer to win a case like this

238
00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:33,436
Speaker 1: against the studio. In one analysis, two Los Angeles lawyers

239
00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:37,596
Speaker 1: looked at over fifty copyright infringement cases writers brought against

240
00:13:37,596 --> 00:13:43,236
Speaker 1: Hollywood studios, and in every case, the plaintiff lost. The

241
00:13:43,316 --> 00:13:46,076
Speaker 1: law basically says you have to show that your work

242
00:13:46,196 --> 00:13:49,196
Speaker 1: was copied word for a word, and of course you

243
00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,676
Speaker 1: can steal someone's idea without copying it word for word.

244
00:13:53,196 --> 00:13:55,156
Speaker 1: I could go on and on about this, but I

245
00:13:55,236 --> 00:13:59,756
Speaker 1: won't because what matters is what happens next.

246
00:14:00,236 --> 00:14:03,756
Speaker 2: Then Gary calls me up a few months ago and

247
00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:07,156
Speaker 2: he says, at Angus, have you seen the sequel to

248
00:14:07,236 --> 00:14:09,596
Speaker 2: z Utopia? And I said, no, Garret, I have not.

249
00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:11,956
Speaker 2: What happens in the sequel to Utopia?

250
00:14:12,076 --> 00:14:17,036
Speaker 1: Exactly? That's the question, what happens in the sequel to Utopia?

251
00:14:17,676 --> 00:14:20,156
Speaker 1: Everyone has a theory. Why do you think I dragged

252
00:14:20,196 --> 00:14:22,716
Speaker 1: my daughter to see z Utopia too? Because I have

253
00:14:22,756 --> 00:14:25,556
Speaker 1: a theory. Garry Goldwin has a theory. The team of

254
00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:28,636
Speaker 1: movie buffs and literary analysts we put on the case

255
00:14:28,996 --> 00:14:32,156
Speaker 1: have a theory. You will have a theory too once

256
00:14:32,196 --> 00:14:36,116
Speaker 1: you finished listening. And why does everyone have a theory,

257
00:14:36,676 --> 00:14:40,396
Speaker 1: because there is absolutely something weird going on with Utopia

258
00:14:40,436 --> 00:15:01,516
Speaker 1: too that requires a theory. That's after the break. At

259
00:15:01,556 --> 00:15:05,116
Speaker 1: what point do you hear that there's a sequel in

260
00:15:05,156 --> 00:15:05,516
Speaker 1: the works.

261
00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:08,436
Speaker 3: I mean, it takes years and years to make these movies.

262
00:15:08,556 --> 00:15:11,716
Speaker 3: I mean they were making beginning to make the sequel

263
00:15:11,756 --> 00:15:13,796
Speaker 3: while we're still involved in the lawsuit.

264
00:15:14,316 --> 00:15:16,916
Speaker 1: We're back with Angus Fletcher and Gary Goldman, and the

265
00:15:16,996 --> 00:15:20,196
Speaker 1: sensitive topic of the sequel has finally come up.

266
00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:24,356
Speaker 2: Oh truly interesting because the main character in the sequel

267
00:15:24,436 --> 00:15:27,476
Speaker 2: to Utopia is called Gary the Snake.

268
00:15:28,596 --> 00:15:34,436
Speaker 1: The sequel's central character is a snake called Gary the Snake.

269
00:15:34,916 --> 00:15:37,996
Speaker 3: And I thought, well, that's obviously they're just planning to know,

270
00:15:38,156 --> 00:15:41,316
Speaker 3: don't make it. Don't make a character a snake unless

271
00:15:41,316 --> 00:15:43,116
Speaker 3: you're planning to. I mean, so you're in.

272
00:15:43,156 --> 00:15:45,316
Speaker 1: The odd thought when you heard of this character, Gary

273
00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:46,516
Speaker 1: the Snake, as it it was.

274
00:15:47,036 --> 00:15:49,196
Speaker 3: An attack on it, as a personal attack on it.

275
00:15:50,476 --> 00:15:54,156
Speaker 1: Now, of course this could just be a coincidence. Gary

276
00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:56,716
Speaker 1: is a common name. There are lots of Gary's in

277
00:15:56,756 --> 00:15:59,476
Speaker 1: the world, so maybe it makes sense there should be

278
00:15:59,556 --> 00:16:02,756
Speaker 1: lots of snakes named Gary as well. This is essentially

279
00:16:02,796 --> 00:16:06,596
Speaker 1: what the Zutopia two screenwriter said in a publicity interview

280
00:16:06,876 --> 00:16:10,836
Speaker 1: with The New York Times. He's because I think Gary

281
00:16:10,996 --> 00:16:14,396
Speaker 1: is a hilarious name. I apologize to the Garys of

282
00:16:14,436 --> 00:16:17,836
Speaker 1: the world. But multiple times over the years, when I've

283
00:16:17,836 --> 00:16:21,836
Speaker 1: been writing a nice guy character, it's Gary. But needless

284
00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:25,436
Speaker 1: to say, the Goldman family, fresh off seven years of

285
00:16:25,516 --> 00:16:29,636
Speaker 1: legal hell, do not see things this way? Who gets

286
00:16:29,716 --> 00:16:32,516
Speaker 1: the angriest among all the Goldmans? Who gets the angriest?

287
00:16:32,756 --> 00:16:35,116
Speaker 3: Oh, well, my younger son, I can't show you, but

288
00:16:35,316 --> 00:16:37,796
Speaker 3: I'm in my office and there's a door that has

289
00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:41,476
Speaker 3: a broken hinge, which was when he punched the door

290
00:16:41,516 --> 00:16:44,596
Speaker 3: in anger after one of these rulings.

291
00:16:45,156 --> 00:16:48,596
Speaker 1: The repository of Goldman anger is in the youngest scent.

292
00:16:49,236 --> 00:16:51,356
Speaker 1: Do you know what this is? The psychological principle here

293
00:16:51,796 --> 00:16:54,916
Speaker 1: is called transactive memory. You know how in families we

294
00:16:55,076 --> 00:16:57,556
Speaker 1: store our memories in other members of our family. That's

295
00:16:57,596 --> 00:17:00,236
Speaker 1: why the family unit is so powerful. But you guys

296
00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:04,756
Speaker 1: have transactive anger. So you hear about this and you

297
00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:08,876
Speaker 1: think you have a sense of foreboding. And where do

298
00:17:08,876 --> 00:17:11,316
Speaker 1: you see? When did you go Seesar Twopia two in

299
00:17:11,316 --> 00:17:11,716
Speaker 1: the theater?

300
00:17:12,396 --> 00:17:15,396
Speaker 3: Oh? The day before it opened. I mean we tried

301
00:17:15,396 --> 00:17:17,436
Speaker 3: to you know, we tried to get tickets to screening.

302
00:17:17,556 --> 00:17:19,556
Speaker 1: They wouldn't even give you a ticket to the premiere.

303
00:17:20,636 --> 00:17:22,316
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, they don't talk to me. I mean,

304
00:17:22,356 --> 00:17:25,236
Speaker 3: I'm no, no, no, no, I didn't ask them. We're

305
00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:25,756
Speaker 3: not in touch.

306
00:17:26,156 --> 00:17:30,076
Speaker 1: The whole Goldman family, Gary, his wife Judy, their two

307
00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:33,916
Speaker 1: grown sons gather at a movie theater in Dublin, California,

308
00:17:34,196 --> 00:17:35,596
Speaker 1: just east of San Francisco.

309
00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,476
Speaker 3: So we go there for sitting and we watches this

310
00:17:38,556 --> 00:17:41,796
Speaker 3: story unfold and my wife says, he looks like you.

311
00:17:42,196 --> 00:17:44,276
Speaker 3: I said, what are you talking about? This snake looks

312
00:17:44,316 --> 00:17:46,916
Speaker 3: like me? He says yeah, she she's an artist. And

313
00:17:46,956 --> 00:17:48,996
Speaker 3: so she says, yeah, I can see how that. I

314
00:17:49,036 --> 00:17:50,676
Speaker 3: think they you know, in any case, she thinks, Garry

315
00:17:50,716 --> 00:17:51,596
Speaker 3: the snake looks like me.

316
00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:56,636
Speaker 1: Now does Gary the snake really look like Gary Goldman?

317
00:17:57,116 --> 00:18:00,876
Speaker 1: Or is this just the Goldman's being paranoid? Well, let

318
00:18:00,916 --> 00:18:05,996
Speaker 1: me describe Gary Goldman. He's seventy two, his large, expressive eyes,

319
00:18:06,556 --> 00:18:09,636
Speaker 1: a self effacing, understated manner. I mean, and you've heard

320
00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:12,396
Speaker 1: him speak, match that voice to your mental image of

321
00:18:12,436 --> 00:18:16,356
Speaker 1: your kindly uncle. And what is GARYD. Snake? Weirdly? A

322
00:18:16,556 --> 00:18:22,796
Speaker 1: nice snake, a sweetheart snake, large expressive eyes, a self effacing,

323
00:18:22,996 --> 00:18:27,316
Speaker 1: understated manner, middle aged with one fang instead of two,

324
00:18:27,356 --> 00:18:30,796
Speaker 1: conceptually defanged as the middle aged so often are.

325
00:18:32,996 --> 00:18:37,756
Speaker 4: Oh Gary, Gary D Snake and your last being snake.

326
00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:42,516
Speaker 1: Everything is going to be okay. Gary says that after

327
00:18:42,556 --> 00:18:45,036
Speaker 1: the movie came out, all kinds of people texted him

328
00:18:45,076 --> 00:18:48,876
Speaker 1: to say, Gary, the snake looks just like you. And

329
00:18:48,916 --> 00:18:50,716
Speaker 1: when I went to Caesar Twop You two with my

330
00:18:50,796 --> 00:18:54,756
Speaker 1: daughter right after I'd interviewed Gary, that was my first thought,

331
00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:58,236
Speaker 1: as well, good lord, it's the same guy.

332
00:18:59,036 --> 00:19:00,956
Speaker 3: Oh so.

333
00:19:03,116 --> 00:19:08,676
Speaker 6: Well, Gary doesn't have that cheat. So the the fang

334
00:19:08,796 --> 00:19:12,556
Speaker 6: was afore but but yeah, man, I'm so Gary. Is

335
00:19:12,636 --> 00:19:16,276
Speaker 6: this Gary the snake is sweet? His eyebrows kind of

336
00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:19,996
Speaker 6: go up a little bit, his eyes kind of drew

337
00:19:20,316 --> 00:19:20,956
Speaker 6: a little bit.

338
00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:24,116
Speaker 1: I called up Goldman's lawyer, Debra Drews.

339
00:19:25,556 --> 00:19:29,436
Speaker 6: I mean, this is gonna sound ridiculous. The snake kind

340
00:19:29,436 --> 00:19:30,556
Speaker 6: of looks Jewish.

341
00:19:30,756 --> 00:19:32,556
Speaker 1: Yes, this snake looks Jewish.

342
00:19:32,836 --> 00:19:41,996
Speaker 6: Yeah, said okay, I'm Jewish, so no, uh. Anyway, yes,

343
00:19:42,196 --> 00:19:45,116
Speaker 6: I did think the snake looked Jewish, and I thought

344
00:19:45,996 --> 00:19:48,956
Speaker 6: the way he behaved and the way he moved. Gary

345
00:19:49,076 --> 00:19:53,956
Speaker 6: Goldman's a sweet He's a sweet guy. So every once

346
00:19:53,996 --> 00:19:56,596
Speaker 6: in a while that just that Southern charm. And there's

347
00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:59,636
Speaker 6: a little you know, like when you're playing a stringed

348
00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:02,196
Speaker 6: instrument and bend the string and it gives you a

349
00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:08,596
Speaker 6: little it gives you a little twang. That's Gary, you know, charming.

350
00:20:10,596 --> 00:20:14,276
Speaker 6: So yeah, that was That was Gary the Snake. I

351
00:20:14,316 --> 00:20:16,796
Speaker 6: mean that it was clear to me, and I think

352
00:20:16,996 --> 00:20:19,516
Speaker 6: it probably is clear to the people who worked on

353
00:20:19,596 --> 00:20:20,276
Speaker 6: both films.

354
00:20:20,756 --> 00:20:24,756
Speaker 1: Just saying, Oh, by the way, a good chunk of

355
00:20:24,756 --> 00:20:28,116
Speaker 1: the movie takes place in a swampy coastal area called

356
00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:32,036
Speaker 1: marsh Market. And I'm quoting now from a review of

357
00:20:32,076 --> 00:20:36,076
Speaker 1: the movie. Marsh Market could well be the z Utopia

358
00:20:36,156 --> 00:20:40,876
Speaker 1: equivalent of New Orleans. Everybody thinks this. Here's the La

359
00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:44,476
Speaker 1: Times critic Matt Brennan interviewing the screenwriter and director of

360
00:20:44,556 --> 00:20:46,756
Speaker 1: Zutopia before the movie came out.

361
00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:49,596
Speaker 3: That you mentioned Marsh Market, and I have to say,

362
00:20:49,676 --> 00:20:50,916
Speaker 3: is a longtime New Orleanian.

363
00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:56,316
Speaker 1: I love seeing version of a Bye. Why does all

364
00:20:56,356 --> 00:21:00,436
Speaker 1: this matter because Gary Goldbman is from New Orleans, and

365
00:21:00,476 --> 00:21:04,996
Speaker 1: because Gary Goldman is Jewish. But still, I know what

366
00:21:04,996 --> 00:21:11,236
Speaker 1: you're thinking. We haven't yet crossed over into gandal. That's

367
00:21:11,276 --> 00:21:30,916
Speaker 1: after the break. Screenwriters put caricatures of real people in

368
00:21:30,996 --> 00:21:34,836
Speaker 1: movies all the time. Many people believe, for example, that

369
00:21:34,956 --> 00:21:38,596
Speaker 1: Doctor Evil in the Austin Powers movies is Lorne Michaels,

370
00:21:38,956 --> 00:21:43,076
Speaker 1: the creator of Saturday Night Live the Villanevian Fleming's James

371
00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:47,036
Speaker 1: Bond thriller Goldfinger. Rumor has it was based on the

372
00:21:47,036 --> 00:21:51,156
Speaker 1: modernist architect Erno Goldfinger, who Fleming was feuding with at

373
00:21:51,196 --> 00:21:54,836
Speaker 1: the time because Goldfinger built an incredibly ugly house down

374
00:21:54,876 --> 00:21:58,636
Speaker 1: the road from him. So what if the Walt Disney

375
00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:00,796
Speaker 1: Company wants to make a movie about a middle aged

376
00:22:00,876 --> 00:22:04,476
Speaker 1: Jewish snake named Gary from New Orleans. That's not a crime.

377
00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:08,036
Speaker 1: But now we get to the heart of the issue,

378
00:22:09,116 --> 00:22:14,196
Speaker 1: which is what is Utopia Too really about? Well, it's

379
00:22:14,236 --> 00:22:20,156
Speaker 1: a movie about intellectual property. Zutopia exists because of incredibly

380
00:22:20,196 --> 00:22:24,156
Speaker 1: sophisticated weather walls. They make it possible for animals from

381
00:22:24,156 --> 00:22:26,516
Speaker 1: all over the world to live in one place. The

382
00:22:26,556 --> 00:22:30,236
Speaker 1: walls were invented by Agnes to Snake, Gary's great grandmother,

383
00:22:30,516 --> 00:22:32,916
Speaker 1: who wanted to build a world where all animals could

384
00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:35,876
Speaker 1: live in harmony, but her pattern was stolen by the

385
00:22:35,916 --> 00:22:41,396
Speaker 1: evil Lynxes who run Utopia. Big chubby, evil Lynxes literally

386
00:22:41,636 --> 00:22:47,676
Speaker 1: corporate fatcats. Listen to how Paupert Lynxley describes his family's scheme, But.

387
00:22:47,716 --> 00:22:51,476
Speaker 5: When my great grandfather saw what her idea could be worth,

388
00:22:55,796 --> 00:22:59,036
Speaker 5: he plotted to steal her plans for himself.

389
00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:02,556
Speaker 1: The lynx has then cast all the Reptiles out of

390
00:23:02,636 --> 00:23:06,476
Speaker 1: Zutopia to keep their theft a secret, and the plot

391
00:23:06,476 --> 00:23:09,556
Speaker 1: of the movie involves the intrepid team of Judy Hops

392
00:23:09,596 --> 00:23:12,916
Speaker 1: and Nick Wilde teaming up with Gary to Snake to

393
00:23:13,076 --> 00:23:16,396
Speaker 1: get the patent back, restore the Snake family's good name,

394
00:23:16,716 --> 00:23:20,956
Speaker 1: and bring reptiles back into the city of Zutopia. The

395
00:23:20,996 --> 00:23:26,036
Speaker 1: whole plot of Zutopia, too, the entire movie is about

396
00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:29,716
Speaker 1: repairing the damage done by the theft of intellectual property

397
00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:31,836
Speaker 1: Snake on the bad guys.

398
00:23:32,156 --> 00:23:34,636
Speaker 7: I have to set things right, and when I do,

399
00:23:34,956 --> 00:23:38,396
Speaker 7: my family will finally be able to come home.

400
00:23:39,796 --> 00:23:45,116
Speaker 1: So t Rika. Just as the Walt Disney Company emerges

401
00:23:45,316 --> 00:23:48,556
Speaker 1: from a bruising seven year legal battle in which a

402
00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:52,676
Speaker 1: Jewish man from Louisiana named Gary claimed that he invented

403
00:23:52,756 --> 00:23:55,916
Speaker 1: Zutopia and had his idea stolen by the corporate fat

404
00:23:55,916 --> 00:23:59,596
Speaker 1: cats at the Walt Disney Company. The Walt Disney Company

405
00:24:00,156 --> 00:24:03,436
Speaker 1: comes out with a sequel to z Utopia in which

406
00:24:03,476 --> 00:24:07,916
Speaker 1: the central character is a Jewish snake from Louisiana named Gary,

407
00:24:08,396 --> 00:24:12,396
Speaker 1: whose family invented Zutopia and had their ideas stolen by

408
00:24:12,396 --> 00:24:16,916
Speaker 1: a bunch of corporate fact cats. This is why Gary

409
00:24:16,916 --> 00:24:23,036
Speaker 1: Goldman called Angus Fletcher, and why Angus Fletcher called me, And.

410
00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:27,836
Speaker 2: So Zootobia IWO is basically an allegory of what Disney

411
00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:31,516
Speaker 2: did to Gary in Zootopia one, but it's an allegory

412
00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:34,476
Speaker 2: that's created by Disney. So anyway, that was the point

413
00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:37,276
Speaker 2: where my mind imploded and I knew we had to

414
00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:38,596
Speaker 2: call Malcolm.

415
00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:42,796
Speaker 1: This is why I love Angus because whenever his mind implodes,

416
00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:48,996
Speaker 1: he thinks of me. The movie's over, the Goldmans walk out, right,

417
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:50,676
Speaker 1: and what do you guys do? Do you guys go

418
00:24:50,676 --> 00:24:51,596
Speaker 1: out to dinner and discuss?

419
00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:52,036
Speaker 6: What do you do?

420
00:24:52,076 --> 00:24:53,556
Speaker 1: How do you download all this information?

421
00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:58,476
Speaker 3: Well, Malcolm is I don't think we are filled with

422
00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:03,036
Speaker 3: questions and doubs. We were now in the twilight zone.

423
00:25:03,316 --> 00:25:08,156
Speaker 3: Disney has spent over three hundred million dollars producing and

424
00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:11,836
Speaker 3: marketing this movie. Yeah, and it seems to me that

425
00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:14,756
Speaker 3: it's about me and this lawsuit. Yeah, it really sucks,

426
00:25:15,316 --> 00:25:18,356
Speaker 3: and we're trying to figure out how this happened? Did

427
00:25:18,636 --> 00:25:22,236
Speaker 3: whose idea was it? Is the company behind this? Is

428
00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:24,756
Speaker 3: it an official statement of the company? Did the writer

429
00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:27,276
Speaker 3: who are carried over from the last movie, did they

430
00:25:27,316 --> 00:25:28,196
Speaker 3: have something to do with this?

431
00:25:28,916 --> 00:25:32,116
Speaker 1: If you think that all this is paranoid nonsense, then

432
00:25:32,156 --> 00:25:35,276
Speaker 1: I suggest once again you go to see ze Utopia

433
00:25:35,356 --> 00:25:38,356
Speaker 1: two for yourself and they will come a point, trust me,

434
00:25:38,716 --> 00:25:42,956
Speaker 1: when the insanity of the plot will become impossible to ignore,

435
00:25:43,196 --> 00:25:45,316
Speaker 1: and you will turn to the little person next to

436
00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:48,836
Speaker 1: you nursing their popcorn, and you will cover their ears

437
00:25:49,156 --> 00:25:51,876
Speaker 1: and say out loud, along with everyone else in the

438
00:25:51,916 --> 00:25:55,436
Speaker 1: crowded theater, wtf.

439
00:25:56,316 --> 00:26:00,476
Speaker 3: Did they sneak it past? Did the Disney legal department?

440
00:26:00,636 --> 00:26:03,596
Speaker 3: Does the Disney legal department know about it? It's a

441
00:26:03,676 --> 00:26:05,836
Speaker 3: legal If any legal knows about it, why did they

442
00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:08,156
Speaker 3: approve it? It's the Disney higher ups know about it?

443
00:26:08,276 --> 00:26:09,276
Speaker 3: Why did they approve it?

444
00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:12,796
Speaker 7: No way Disney legal department knew about this, right Angus,

445
00:26:13,276 --> 00:26:15,836
Speaker 7: No way, no way, no, this is that let's we

446
00:26:15,876 --> 00:26:19,516
Speaker 7: can we can remove that possibility. This sounds to me

447
00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:27,916
Speaker 7: so somehow, somehow, the the this Gary the Snake as

448
00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:32,996
Speaker 7: a the positive portrayal of Gary the Snake sneaks past

449
00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:37,036
Speaker 7: the Disney legal and corporate infrastructure.

450
00:26:37,476 --> 00:26:40,716
Speaker 1: This is unbelievable. This is we're now in that We're

451
00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,556
Speaker 1: now in a heist movie. They sneak the idea out

452
00:26:44,596 --> 00:26:45,636
Speaker 1: of Disney, out of Burban.

453
00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:50,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now why did the studio make a

454
00:26:50,116 --> 00:26:55,116
Speaker 3: movie that can be interpreted as reopening a case that

455
00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:58,196
Speaker 3: that was settled? They won? Yeah, and now they're going

456
00:26:58,276 --> 00:27:00,196
Speaker 3: to talk about it again? And to me, all this

457
00:27:00,276 --> 00:27:02,876
Speaker 3: does but I mean, from a personal and legal point

458
00:27:02,876 --> 00:27:04,516
Speaker 3: of view, it invites speculation.

459
00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 1: Were there clues in the original litigation that might help

460
00:27:08,756 --> 00:27:11,636
Speaker 1: us make sense of what happened? I checked with Deborah

461
00:27:11,676 --> 00:27:16,036
Speaker 1: Dru's Gary's lawyer. Are there copies in the public realm

462
00:27:16,116 --> 00:27:19,556
Speaker 1: of those depositions of all those Disney guys? Do you

463
00:27:19,596 --> 00:27:20,396
Speaker 1: have copies of them?

464
00:27:20,716 --> 00:27:23,156
Speaker 4: I have a couple of answers for you, but one

465
00:27:23,156 --> 00:27:29,796
Speaker 4: of them is that Disney was it was very scrupulous

466
00:27:30,636 --> 00:27:34,716
Speaker 4: about obtaining a protective order in which pretty much anything

467
00:27:34,716 --> 00:27:40,876
Speaker 4: that Disney said was proprietary or confidential or this trade

468
00:27:40,916 --> 00:27:44,836
Speaker 4: secret would have to be filed under seal, so not

469
00:27:44,956 --> 00:27:46,236
Speaker 4: accessible to the public.

470
00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:49,316
Speaker 1: So then I thought, well, I'll just go to the top.

471
00:27:49,876 --> 00:27:53,716
Speaker 1: I emailed the CEO of Disney himself, the redoubtable Bob Eiger,

472
00:27:54,636 --> 00:27:57,836
Speaker 1: Hi Bob, Happy New Year. I have become obsessed with

473
00:27:57,956 --> 00:28:00,716
Speaker 1: Utopia too, and the question of whether the movie is

474
00:28:00,756 --> 00:28:05,196
Speaker 1: an encoded apology to Gary Goldman, It's maybe my favorite

475
00:28:05,276 --> 00:28:08,676
Speaker 1: Hollywood story ever, and as you may know, Gary Goldman

476
00:28:08,796 --> 00:28:11,556
Speaker 1: is in interpreting the film's hidden message as an act

477
00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:15,756
Speaker 1: of graciousness on Disney's part. Would you ever consider talking

478
00:28:15,796 --> 00:28:19,036
Speaker 1: about this for my podcast, even five minutes, even if

479
00:28:19,036 --> 00:28:22,236
Speaker 1: you just want to say something brief and funny. I

480
00:28:22,316 --> 00:28:25,596
Speaker 1: just saw it with my four year old. Anyway, I

481
00:28:25,676 --> 00:28:27,796
Speaker 1: know this is a long shot, but thought you might

482
00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:31,876
Speaker 1: enjoy a little distraction from your day. M He writes back.

483
00:28:32,436 --> 00:28:34,356
Speaker 1: First of all, great to hear from you, and the

484
00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:36,796
Speaker 1: picture of you with a four year old makes me smile.

485
00:28:37,356 --> 00:28:41,156
Speaker 1: Kids are truly life changers and blessings, aren't they. Then

486
00:28:41,196 --> 00:28:45,516
Speaker 1: he goes on regarding Zutopia and Gary, I am sorry

487
00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:49,796
Speaker 1: to tell you I cannot comment. I should say Bob

488
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:52,676
Speaker 1: Eiger is an incredibly kind and gracious man, and there

489
00:28:52,716 --> 00:28:55,236
Speaker 1: is a version of this story where he is the hero,

490
00:28:55,676 --> 00:28:58,196
Speaker 1: the greatest of all heroes, the kind you can never

491
00:28:58,276 --> 00:29:02,956
Speaker 1: publicly acknowledge their courageous act. There is also a version

492
00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:07,076
Speaker 1: where he was the victim of a crime so perfect

493
00:29:07,236 --> 00:29:10,316
Speaker 1: that he can never bring the offender to justice. We

494
00:29:10,396 --> 00:29:15,876
Speaker 1: will get there, I promise. Okay, would anyone else talk?

495
00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,676
Speaker 1: I called up Hollywood big shots, moguls. No one would

496
00:29:19,716 --> 00:29:22,196
Speaker 1: go in the record, don't use this, or you can

497
00:29:22,276 --> 00:29:24,796
Speaker 1: use this, but don't use my name like this guy.

498
00:29:25,596 --> 00:29:27,676
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why they did it, to be honest

499
00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:31,716
Speaker 2: with you, Yeah, because like that's so on the nose

500
00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:34,876
Speaker 2: and it's such a bleep you if you pardon my French.

501
00:29:35,516 --> 00:29:37,076
Speaker 5: I mean, I didn't know they were that bull.

502
00:29:37,156 --> 00:29:39,676
Speaker 3: To be honest with it, I kind of laugh about it.

503
00:29:39,436 --> 00:29:40,436
Speaker 6: I think it's funny.

504
00:29:40,756 --> 00:29:42,836
Speaker 1: It's funny, but it's hysterical.

505
00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:43,676
Speaker 6: But here's the truth.

506
00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:47,036
Speaker 3: You rarely poke talent in the eye, you know what

507
00:29:47,036 --> 00:29:47,356
Speaker 3: I mean.

508
00:29:47,716 --> 00:29:50,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I don't know how the lawsuit ended, but

509
00:29:50,476 --> 00:29:51,476
Speaker 2: I would guess this is a.

510
00:29:51,476 --> 00:29:53,356
Speaker 3: Little bitterness because people don't lose.

511
00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:55,196
Speaker 6: Well, right, so.

512
00:29:56,596 --> 00:29:58,956
Speaker 5: I just find it wildly bizarrely.

513
00:29:59,076 --> 00:29:59,756
Speaker 3: It's too good.

514
00:30:00,676 --> 00:30:08,996
Speaker 1: It's too good, I kept going Mogul upon Mogul, Hi retacted.

515
00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:12,556
Speaker 1: I'm doing a very strange and hilarious story about Disney

516
00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:15,796
Speaker 1: and Zutopia too, and wanted to talk to you about it.

517
00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:20,076
Speaker 1: The Moga writes back, nice to connect. I would talk

518
00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:26,556
Speaker 1: to you about anything except Disney. I respond, I totally understand. Rejected,

519
00:30:27,076 --> 00:30:29,676
Speaker 1: but I appreciate you getting back to me. I suspect

520
00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:31,516
Speaker 1: that you will at least be amused by what we

521
00:30:31,596 --> 00:30:34,676
Speaker 1: end up doing. It's a story about how the script

522
00:30:34,756 --> 00:30:38,636
Speaker 1: for Zutopia two never should have gotten past Disney Legal.

523
00:30:39,916 --> 00:30:45,116
Speaker 1: Moga writes back, not surprised, good luck on the matter

524
00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:48,556
Speaker 1: of Gary de Snake and Zutopia two. There is nothing

525
00:30:48,676 --> 00:30:51,916
Speaker 1: but silence from the powers that be. We have been

526
00:30:51,996 --> 00:30:56,476
Speaker 1: left to our own devices, and there is nothing in

527
00:30:56,516 --> 00:30:59,236
Speaker 1: the world more exciting on a story as strange as

528
00:30:59,236 --> 00:31:04,796
Speaker 1: this than being left to our own devices. Next week,

529
00:31:04,956 --> 00:31:09,396
Speaker 1: on Revision's History Part two, we venture a bold theory

530
00:31:09,716 --> 00:31:12,556
Speaker 1: about what exactly happened behind the closed doors of the

531
00:31:12,556 --> 00:31:22,236
Speaker 1: Walt Disney Corporation. Revisionous History is produced by Nina Bird Lawrence,

532
00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:26,396
Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and Ben Adaff Haffrey. Our editor is Karen

533
00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:30,596
Speaker 1: Schakerji fact checking by Sam Russick. Our executive producer is

534
00:31:30,676 --> 00:31:34,516
Speaker 1: Jacob Smith. Engineering by Nina Bird Lawrence, original music by

535
00:31:34,556 --> 00:31:40,276
Speaker 1: Luis Kira, Sound design and mastering by Marcelo di'elivera. I'm

536
00:31:40,276 --> 00:31:40,956
Speaker 1: Malcolm Glavo