Escaping a Polygamous Cult: Pamela Jones on the Rules That Trapped Her — and the Escape That Set Her Free

[SPEAKER_01]: Today, on Misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel, I was born into a very nefarious cult, the LeBarian clan, or LeBarian was considered the Mormon Manson.
[SPEAKER_01]: I lived in the way of his murders as a little girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: My father had trained me and taught me that my body belonged to, whoever my husband was gonna be.
[SPEAKER_01]: I only existed for one purpose and one purpose only and that was for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: He always told me, if I can keep you pregnant, that will buy me two years.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you know whether or not you want to escape the marriage for escape the cult?
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's ever left the cult and got away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone did leave, that it could be in danger of the blood atonement, which is they could be murdered.
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew I was leaving, and I thought if they find out I'm leaving, it's gonna be over, they'll take my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: They had me so convinced that God would kill me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have it out with God, and I just thought, okay, Lord, if you're going to take my life, then take my life now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pamela Jones was born into a polygamous Mormon cult in Mexico, a closed world where obedience was everything and choice did not exist.
[SPEAKER_02]: Girls were raised to be silent, compliant, and fearful.
[SPEAKER_02]: taught that their value was tied to submission and survival depended on not questioning authority.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pamela was married at just 15 years old.
[SPEAKER_02]: She went on to have nine children inside a system that did not educate women, didn't encourage independence and didn't prepare anyone for life outside its walls.
[SPEAKER_02]: Fear wasn't an emotion.
[SPEAKER_02]: For years, she wanted to leave but didn't know how, no money, no education, no road map.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then at 34 years old Pamela made a decision that would change everything.
[SPEAKER_02]: She escaped with her children, two cars, two tanks of gas and no guarantee of safety crossing the Mexican border and starting over from nothing.
[SPEAKER_02]: She landed in Minnesota with less than a fifth grade education, no work history, and the kind of poverty most people never fully recovered from.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what happened next is the part of this story that demands your attention.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pamela went from cleaning houses to founding a cleaning company that built a multimillion dollar empire, employing dozens of women raising nine children and becoming a grandmother to 31 grandchildren.
[SPEAKER_02]: This isn't just a survival story, it's a story about reclaiming autonomy after a lifetime of control and proving that the life you're told you're destined for doesn't have to be the one you live.
[SPEAKER_02]: Welcome, Pamela Jones.
[SPEAKER_02]: Pamela, it's so good to have you here today on Miss Andres to thank you so much for joining us all the way from Minnesota.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you for having me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been so much looking forward to this.
[SPEAKER_02]: Me too.
[SPEAKER_02]: We too.
[SPEAKER_02]: So in researching your story and your book.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've got to say your life is incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that your book gets picked up and they make a movie out of that as anyone been in talks with you about that yet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's actually we are in some talks with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But everything's under wrap when we don't want to talk too much about until it's we got a sign deal of some sort.
[SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, and just for the sake of not, you know, not taking things out of the universe, you know, like you just don't ever want to talk about it until it's real.
[SPEAKER_02]: Because in that world, so many things are just talk until you sign on the dial line.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I hope for you and for listeners and viewers out there that it is made into some sort of documentary TV show movie, whatever it is because it's so incredible and unbelievable that you deserve the platform to share
[SPEAKER_02]: So I think I do wish you all the best and not.
[SPEAKER_02]: Before we get into your book, and which is essentially your memoir, it's out now by the way, it's called The Dirt Beneath the Door.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to get give people that don't know about the book, don't know about your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to start at the beginning.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want to talk about your childhood before
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, we know where your story starts, you know, like when I've started researching you and essentially starts at age 15 in a lot of things that they start to talk about.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I want to hear about the family you're born into, where you are born, and how you got into this lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was born into the lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_01]: My mother was married to a polygamous man.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was his third wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was my father's 11th child out of 57 biological children.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're little, you don't know anything different.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it felt normal to me, of course.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't remember ever thinking that it wasn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: And tell obviously, I got older.
[SPEAKER_01]: But um,
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there was just a lot of sisters we, you know, my family was always moving around because of different choices that they made and the way the religion was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So lots of times I spent a lot of time with my half siblings, like there'd be a big huge bed out in the garage and there'd be several of us sisters all snuggled up on the bed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I felt like I had a lot of fun with a lot of different family members, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: But how does it, how does it work?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it like what we see in the TV show, Sister Wives?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is it like there's a husband, he moves from house to house, then each wife has their kids in one house, like how is it all organized?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, ideally, it should go that way, but it was never that way for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I always tell a lot of people that are now interested in my story that if it would have been anything like the Sister Wives, or any of the shows I've seen on TV, I would have been a dream come true.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's almost like someone watching what is that show?
[SPEAKER_01]: Julia Roberts is in pretty women.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they depicting that that story is the life of a hooker.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of how I compare the story of Sister Wives during the other story out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's nothing like that at all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mom never really had a night.
[SPEAKER_01]: My father really never came to stay at our home.
[SPEAKER_01]: But obviously she had 13 children.
[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore they figured it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he just kind of made his rounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: How he did to keep them pregnant and having his children.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I was really an interesting childhood.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was born into a very nefarious cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, uh, I believe on record, it's one of the most, uh, nefarious of, uh, of all the Mormon sects that are out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Meaning what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Explain what that means.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, um, uh, I don't know how much you know the story, but, um, it's the LeBaron clan.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, Irville LeBaron was considered the Mormon Manson.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he became a very murderous man, and he started an implemented ritual that was called the blood atonement where they would murder members of the church to tone for their sins.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the teachings that evidently Joseph Smith got some kind of revelation way back on the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was the only one that was ever heard of in history that implemented the practice.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I lived in the way of his murders as a little girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never met the man, but he ended up getting excommunicated from the church because there was some big fight going on amongst the brothers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So there was five brothers that moved into Mexico back in 1940s somewhat.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know the exact date and they started this church and my father got converted and then he married into the church as well and then I was born into it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So wasn't
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all you knew as a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all I knew as a child.
[SPEAKER_02]: And as a child, you know, we grow up who are not in culture would say in with Cinderella being played and you think, you know, you want to find a prince and the king and you're the princess and you want to have a happily ever after.
[SPEAKER_02]: What was your childhood like, what did you guys think was life about?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, for me, I was supposed to have as many children as I could, so I could get into heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my little Cinderella stories I wanted to marry had some prints that I could have all these beautiful babies with, and preferably in a perfect world, he would not be an old gross old man and married to a bunch of other women.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was my secret.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't dare tell that to anybody because
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that, well, I'd have been considered some wrong, but I was just thinking if I could marry a man that wasn't married, and he was a handsome man, that would be my fairy tale.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, how does that work?
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you, but how does that work with, like, as you're growing up, you kind of have feelings for other people, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: So, when you're 12, 13, like my daughter's 13, she's just kind of getting it figured out if she wants a boyfriend, you know, that kind of thing, I know you had your first child
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got married at 15, but the way the cult worked is once you become a young lady.
[SPEAKER_01]: So once I started sprouting boobies and, you know, developing, then I started being marketable.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my father started marketing me in a certain way, whereas he would prance me around and then a lot of the men in the cult would come around, bring my father give, see if he'd get clout in the church.
[SPEAKER_01]: he'd get like recognized and honored because he had these beautiful daughters.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the time we became young ladies, I would notice all these old girls men coming around and also my dad had out these men, you know, being so respectful to him and calling on him at church all the time to do all these great things and then
[SPEAKER_01]: donating whatever property, depending on whatever it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So as a little girl, like you're asking at the age 12, 13, I mean, that's kind of how it started and then we had moved into Mexico.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so all of my prospects, most of them were little Hispanics, and I'm,
[SPEAKER_01]: six foot feet tall, big, just did blondie, anybody that could possibly even be a prospect for me was like right up to my armpit, so I just felt like that ugly duckling, so they weren't potential, you know, prospects and besides my father was racist, and
[SPEAKER_01]: He definitely trained us and taught us not to marry outside of, you know, the cult or the religion or whatever it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was never an option.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to answer your question, my little fairy tell it was, it was just tarnished from the time your bear.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I was barely developing and noticing and
[SPEAKER_01]: that, you know, that I'm becoming a young lady and now there's all these men around.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we suffer such hunger and poverty that my mom would get all these, you know, gifts, food gifts and they wired the house and we were able to have electricity and it's because she had beautiful daughters.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you start feeling like you're a commodity.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it was almost like, you know, there's currency and then there's having beautiful daughters in the cult and that was something that I became
[SPEAKER_01]: like a currency, the sound so weird when I say it now, but it was the way it was.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I can understand that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you didn't have any crush when you were younger and you didn't have a love that you had to be ripped away from when they organized a wedding for you to somebody else.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, my first little so-called love, he was 10 years older than me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would have been 13.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was barely sprouting.
[SPEAKER_01]: The booth fairy had only come and pumped a couple of little pumps when I met you.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was 10 years older than me, and which is a big difference.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't married.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was my first little crush, but my father broke that apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the idea didn't find out to probably 40 years later what that was all about.
[SPEAKER_01]: There were some rumors that he was doing things with his father's wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: He should not be doing so my dad thought, no way you're not going to get my daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was my first little crush.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I met the father and my children.
[SPEAKER_02]: So how was he introduced to you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Is that was at a choice for me, your father?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, the church would have these so-called conferences is something that Mormons do all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the whole church, the church had several different colonies throughout.
[SPEAKER_01]: The United States and throughout Mexico, so they would gather twice a year and everybody would come, we lived in Baja California, Mexico, so they would all come down and I met him there at one of the conferences doing whatever they were doing, they'd play some games and they'd have dances and do different things, and he was like a typical pot smoker, a long thick, leshes beautiful hair, and he's half Hispanic.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had on back in those days they were those, um,
[SPEAKER_01]: What were they called ditto jeans?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you remember them back in the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ditto bell bottom jeans and the silk shirts that were in buttoned.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was considered a full-fledged bad boy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, me being the little innocent girl that I was, I was all Twitter-painted.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't some old man you weren't attracted to.
[SPEAKER_02]: This was a guy you could be with.
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank goodness, yeah, there was plenty of old men, but in the religion that I am from, you're able to choose who you want to marry.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, the fathers have a lot of influence over you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But for whatever reason, for me, it slipped through the fingers, and I was able to marry this man and be his first wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: so was he wealthy enough that he could impress your father and no father no he he was not wealthy so there was a lot of problems there okay got it and you got it his father was one of the original five brothers and there was some some battle in the thore the in church whatever back then so
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, my mom was really unhappy about that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get a pretty penny for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was determined.
[SPEAKER_01]: And by reading through my story, you find out why I had chosen to marry him and to marry so quickly, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's because of my father's alcoholism and his abuse.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're leaving a home of abuse and going to a place where you would find some love and affection.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I chose the father and my kids or I chose who to be married to, the number one thing that I chose by chose them is because I noticed that his family did not go hungry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was looking for someone that would be able to feed me, believe it or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I thought if I marry into this family I'll never go hungry.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's why I chose that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and then he was really good to kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought he really loved kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: So being that my father was so abusive, I just thought if I can find someone that's kind to kids and that will feed me then I got, you know, the very tell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So and how old was he when you were 15?
[SPEAKER_02]: He was 21.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So not a terrible age difference.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you marry you marry this guy and how does it work in your religion?
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't have sex till you get married or what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't have sex to your married, but if he would have had his way, we would have done it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was trying to get to heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: So in my story, you find out that you find out that he puts his arm around me and I'm still 14 and my father
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought that I would be, you know, from the perspective of where I am now and where I've been for a long time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know my father never was going to kill me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But as a little girl, you believe they will.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have to tell that truth as as the little girl that I was.
[SPEAKER_01]: So at 15 or 14.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when this guy puts his arm around my waist and I'm in trouble, he gives me a beating of my life, like lashing, a terrible beating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe that he's going to take my life.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wow.
[SPEAKER_01]: So because of that, I decide the only way out is to get married.
[SPEAKER_01]: So therefore on that day, I decided, okay, I'm going to get married.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was the best thing I could choose for what was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't married.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was younger.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's very handsome, very kind man.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I thought I was going to walk off in the sunset, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course I knew he would have another wife at some point, but that was just so he could get to heaven, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never thought he would be the womanizer he became, but you know, at the time.
[SPEAKER_02]: I was hooked.
[SPEAKER_02]: Can you talk about the beliefs a little bit so that people don't understand cults in general or groups like this?
[SPEAKER_02]: So women are told that they're made to feel like they're a commodity.
[SPEAKER_02]: However, they cannot be promiscuous.
[SPEAKER_02]: Were there people who were promiscuous before that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they were.
[SPEAKER_01]: And would they get in trouble?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they would.
[SPEAKER_01]: They would get severe and troubled here, all kinds of beatings, they would be taken away, the girls would run away.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was a few girls that were quite rebellious back in that time, but because I was so afraid of my father, I never dared.
[SPEAKER_01]: As far as I knew none of my sisters had.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had like four sisters who had gotten married before me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But my father was just super strict.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the religion was, it's not like those fundamentalist churches you hear all through you, Tau, where all these sister wives love each other and they have one big, beautiful, celestial family.
[SPEAKER_01]: The best way to describe it was just a bunch of people living monogamy.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this man just had all these individual marriages, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow, where they kind of try to keep everything straight, they pin the women against each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: My father never truly provided or supported my mother.
[SPEAKER_01]: My mother had two jobs and she was on a welfare and she provided for the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the religion itself is kind of different than the way my father chose to live it.
[SPEAKER_01]: The religion itself is a man's to get married and then hit their to practice the love Sarah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So his wives find him new wives and support him and they become this one, so they'll be a beautiful family, have all these children, and they go to have them, but that is not how my father lived it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And being that we lived in the time of the Mormon Manson, which his name is Irville LeBaron, there was so much secrecy and so much fear and hiding and murders.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to add that to the equation, my father's an alcoholic, I'm a little girl, I don't understand all this stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I remember when I would hear people talk about the religion, and I just thought no one had taken the time to ever teach me or show me why we were doing what we were doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: it was just what we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was being groomed to grow up and bless some other family and give them as many children and wives as I could and that's all I knew.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the meantime, we needed to stay away from herbal labyrinth.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So was there a honeymoon phase?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was there a romantic phase?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, ultimately you have nine children with the same man, correct?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, for sure I had a honeymoon, I guess.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I didn't know anything about sex as you could imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, there's no TV, there's no way, you know, this is back in the late 70s, early 80s.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's, you know, nowadays you just watch a callgate commercial and you can kind of figure out the gist of a section in counter.
[SPEAKER_01]: but back then you know there wasn't you know there wasn't this familiar earlier about this and then of course my mother never talked about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I happened to fall upon a magazine that talked about a honeymoon night and when I heard that you were going to be cupping something you're going to be looking something else and moving I threw the thing across the room and I thought I will never do any of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not going to go to hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a virtuous woman and I was just tormented.
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, curiosity got the best to me and I went and picked it back up and I read it again.
[SPEAKER_01]: But now thinking, you know, not now today, but you know quite a few years later, it was quite explicit, but it literally innocent me.
[SPEAKER_01]: The way I understood it was something that I saw the chickens do, so I was prepared for that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought,
[SPEAKER_01]: Finally, I convinced myself, you know, he can do anything he wants, you know, because after all, my father had trained me and taught me that my body belonged to whoever my husband was going to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: It did not belong to me and for sure, in the heck, belonged to nobody but him.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, the cult and the church taught that a woman was never to ever even
[SPEAKER_01]: have pleasure or experiment with anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I truly never even saw my bottom for I don't know how long because I was so afraid to go to hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking about it now, I laughed, but back then it was just so black and white and it was just this little girl is just my whole story is about just trying
[SPEAKER_01]: to be good enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, good enough for God and good enough for my dad and then good enough for my husband.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you follow my journey and you see how I learn and figure that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: But religion itself was a very oppressive religion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And women were to be seen not heard.
[SPEAKER_01]: I only existed to serve him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I left my mom's body and they said, it's a girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a whole list of what I couldn't do and all the privileges that were taken from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when then my ex-husband left his mother's body, he had his list and they said, boy, he had his list of all his privileges and he would eventually own me and my body.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's one thing to grow up and feel like sex is taboo.
[SPEAKER_02]: And then it's another thing that you're now married and your body is for this man, so sex is on the table now.
[SPEAKER_02]: How do you like disassociate?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because they're too opposing view.
[SPEAKER_02]: So now it's like to be sexual with a man when you grow up thinking sex is taboo.
[SPEAKER_02]: It must have been very difficult to get through to ever enjoy, but also to feel good about your performance.
[SPEAKER_02]: I go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the problem was is that like you said, I, I was so trained that it was so bad and so evil and then all of a sudden you say I do and now you're to engage and I was so scared I didn't understand it and my mother was very private so she never talked to me about it nor did my sisters.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whenever I think about that little girl, maybe that's why I'm really open about the stuff with my granddaughters, my daughters, and any woman I can talk to, but it's like understanding your body and embracing the loving, the woman that you are, and it took me a long time before I could ever even begin to even fathom any of that, because it was such a training that caused such rejection, like you're in your body, you're feeling certain things, but that's of the devil, and so how would
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went on a year for years trying to figure that out, and then my ex-husband, of course, they use polygamy or other women and all of this against you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're forever battling and trying to be good enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember when I finally had the courage to ask him, you know, I just thought, you know, I know you'll have otherwise, but you know, I just wanted him to tell me that if it wasn't for the religion, he would be content with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he told me, oh, no, I would never be content with you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my journey was trying to figure out and learn that me just the way that I was was good enough.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was quite the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when it comes to the intimate part truly, it was a nightmare.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can say I was married to him for 19 years and there was no pleasure, no joy whatsoever.
[SPEAKER_01]: My kids are going to listen to this, and I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that I got such beautiful children from the act, but there was none because by the time you figured out, first I thought I would be, I was possessed by a demon.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I ever thought I felt the norgas and coming on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God, that was the spirit of the devil, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So you're fighting against that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was such a crazy situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: But looking back, he would say, oh, you and your problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I mean, I don't know how deep your show goes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'll try to be candid on how I say these things.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anything that the body does when you're in the act of that kind of stuff, if my body responded in any which way and it can be just going from maybe
[SPEAKER_01]: without saying that, so that's going on, something's wrong with you, and he would tell me something's wrong with you, and you and your problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I really thought that I had a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, because I was a central woman, and
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever it was that I was born with and he just wanted to destroy that.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wanted to snuff it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wanted to say it wasn't so and he loved me but he didn't understand me and I sure couldn't help him because I didn't understand myself at all either.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my father had trained me since I was very young that my body belonged to him and I only existed for one purpose and one purpose only and that was for him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you throw a bunch of other women in there, then you're sitting on the shelf.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then at that point, when I started to figure things out, why I'm two-ding, what is the word?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to share this girl with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if he has a child.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just has all these other women, and I just felt like it was tonnishing me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: the way I protected myself is you'll never have my heart, you'll never have this body.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I kept it to myself, which I thought was genius of me because it saved me for a lot of wonderful things that were to come after my escape.
[SPEAKER_01]: But on the other hand, it showed me that I loved him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was loyal to him, but he never had.
[SPEAKER_01]: I tell his to my children, I said, you're daddy, never had this girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had the one that made you your mom, yeah, he had her, but he's never had this woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like the journey to discovering myself and healing was amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no idea that I was on that journey when I escaped.
[SPEAKER_01]: The cold obviously I was escaping to survive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if that would be murdered at some point because of the blood atonement and the belief of the cold.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Wait.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I want to get into that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you have nine children with this with your the father of your kids.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're married.
[SPEAKER_02]: You don't leave till you're 35 right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You finally escape at 35.
[SPEAKER_02]: But in between there.
[SPEAKER_02]: So we thought it might be a love story.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're figuring out your body.
[SPEAKER_02]: It just gets worse and worse.
[SPEAKER_02]: And how do you know whether you are not you want to escape the marriage or escape the cult like at what point did you have the decision of like wait this whole thing is terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, the way I like to tell people, I regardless of where we're born, regardless what happens to us.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a knowing, we all are born with this innate knowing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of just knew that there was something more out there, but I didn't understand, because I'd look around nothing in my life made sense to what I was feeling.
[SPEAKER_01]: As I'm growing, getting older, and I'm watching, and I'm learning, and I'm having the children, and I'm trying to live the celestial marriage.
[SPEAKER_01]: I deliver to his babies.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got him these why I helped him get these wives, and I had a great relationship with them.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's so much to the story and I was really devoted to the belief and trying to get us all in to heaven.
[SPEAKER_01]: But internally, there was a knowing that something was wrong and I tried to put that off, but as time went on, I couldn't deny it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I started asking the questions as to why was thinking certain things are feeling certain.
[SPEAKER_01]: Things that I remember I'd look at at the stars is so cliche now when I think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: there was some darn cartoon that came out and they would sing that song somewhere out there beneath the pill moon light or whatever that song is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would hear that song or my head and I just knew that there was something out there coming my way but I never imagined it would be divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never imagine that I would be able to escape or get away, but internally I'm starting to get stronger and stronger and I'm throwing away all these parts of this belief, like these are silly things, but oh, if you eat garlic that will keep the evil spirits away or whatever the hell they thought.
[SPEAKER_02]: But what made you know that they were silly?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like were you able to see TV now or read things?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, you finally had some knowledge and understanding or what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no TV because we weren't have TV and not only that, um, they didn't allow me to mingle with my family anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was solely stuck in science camp and in his cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, I had gone to school and tell, well, I went up to fifth grade in San Diego, California.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had been to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had seen another world.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had seen TV back when I lived with my mom and California.
[SPEAKER_01]: I watched TV all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I knew of that world so it's like I was and I had gone to school so I was educated So I felt like that itself was what planted the season there was a whole new other world out there and I loved the United States and I teach test to Mexico So I always felt like I was a misfit So I think I was there was a longing I started checking into that more like it was some things that were happening around me per se it was more of an internal thing that went on
[SPEAKER_01]: And now I've seen my children growing and they're going on, you know, in the colony trying to build friendships.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's just so many things that are causing us to reevaluate the belief because there was no way they could sustain this belief that I only existed for his purpose and he's never there.
[SPEAKER_02]: But within that, well, first of all, did you love it when he was never there?
[SPEAKER_02]: Were you fine?
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I wasn't, I missed him all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I did.
[SPEAKER_01]: I I actually loved the darn guy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got I don't got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And his best is a little girl could.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, after what my father had put me through, he was a walk in the park.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew that he was victim to the belief as much as I was.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just happened to be male.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not like he was this horrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't terrible to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just obviously was not the right guy for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was not terrible to me, but the religion and the belief was terrible, but he wasn't terrible to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was good to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe it or not, it was his favorite.
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds stupid to say that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was his favorite, but hex, hex.
[SPEAKER_01]: I worked hard to be his favorite, but either way, it didn't matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was his first wife, but it wasn't worth the loud in your religion.
[SPEAKER_01]: It happened, but it was definitely something frowned on, especially because, you know, they taught that if a woman left a man, God would take away her kids and she would go straight to hell.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, juice.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Take me back to the moment where you started to make the plan and you said, okay, I'm not going to be murdered if I leave or show me how it worked for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, as times were getting harder and harder, he's marrying hard women, women that come with a lot of baggage with a lot of filth, and I kept thinking, I didn't sign up for this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am not going to be in this situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: One thing is when you're doing it for the Lord, then when this man is sleeping with women before they're married, and there were things that were happening that I decided no longer.
[SPEAKER_01]: The price was too high to pay.
[SPEAKER_01]: This was not the truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was the first thing that happened, but I stayed because of their kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I got, you know, I don't want to break up the family.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're just scared.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I go.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I had no education.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had no where you making money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't make money.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a stay home mom full-time, though the time that I was I would teach like Spanish, I'm sorry, I teach English to the little kindergarten Spanish children, give a couple of bucks or I teach dance or I was making cheese and I would do little things constantly to make money and no matter what I would do he would come in and destroy it because every time I got made a little money I got independent.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then you've come and get rid of whatever it was I was doing, but he had a big family.
[SPEAKER_01]: He couldn't be there every day.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what did I see on one day out of every seven or six days?
[SPEAKER_02]: But explain that to me because again, there's no comparison to sister wives.
[SPEAKER_02]: But like, what the hell are these guys thinking?
[SPEAKER_02]: How do they support
[SPEAKER_02]: all these kids, mouths, women, homes.
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't get it.
[SPEAKER_02]: What is what did that guy do for a living?
[SPEAKER_01]: So in Mexico, you're in a colony.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody's living like this.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's a community.
[SPEAKER_01]: First of all, second of all, they have big farms and ranchers.
[SPEAKER_01]: They make really good money.
[SPEAKER_01]: My ex-husband was wealthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: for Mexico.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the United States probably apples to apples.
[SPEAKER_01]: The numbers wouldn't sound right, but for what numbers can do in Mexico, the money can do in Mexico and lock can get done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he was wealthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I believe back then he had live on like $35,000 a year and I thought he was
[SPEAKER_01]: way wealthy back then.
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is like what 35 years ago or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he wouldn't give you any money, but he would pay the rent or the food.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was no rent.
[SPEAKER_01]: We owned our homes.
[SPEAKER_01]: So and we had gardens.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had goats.
[SPEAKER_01]: We had whatever with gardens.
[SPEAKER_01]: He bought when grocery shopping for the few things we didn't have.
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't believe in doctors.
[SPEAKER_01]: So everything was natural, garlic, and momma, packs, whatever the hell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have your children not in a hospital?
[SPEAKER_01]: I had, so I had nine children.
[SPEAKER_01]: My first child was placenta, previa, emergency c section.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was 16.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was rushed into the hospital and had him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then my fourth child was born in the hospital.
[SPEAKER_01]: The rest were born at home.
[SPEAKER_01]: with no drugs.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, haven't six now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were born at home and he became a midway if himself and then I became a midway because my father was a midway.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I delivered a lot of my his children and that was just the belief of the cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, everybody was like all organic and healthy and they had like the storehouse and they had
[SPEAKER_01]: You know all these different ways that everybody blessed everybody and they they made good money and actually if you ever were to go down there now They're multi millionaires like below your mind the wealth that's in that town.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like nothing you've ever seen People still in this cult there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes thousands
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thousands and thousands.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: We're going to go back to the child worth for a second.
[SPEAKER_02]: And you had a lot of problems as well, correct?
[UNKNOWN]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did you have eight miscarriages?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did I read that?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I did have.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was pregnant at total of 17 times and I'd had seven miscarriages.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then my oldest daughter, which is my third child, I was 20, will just shy of 20 when I gave birth to her and she was a twin.
[SPEAKER_01]: So during giving birth to her, the other parts was just the percent and the bag, whatever was left from the other pregnancy.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it wasn't a miscarriage, but definitely there was something going on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, they didn't believe in doctors, and I was always left alone and you're out on this third-world country with outhouses, and I'm surprised we got through it as well as we did.
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't believe in doctors.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, if the kids broke their arm or whatever, they do the typical move by fingers, how many fingers, blah, blah, blah, all you're fine, you're fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it was constantly, and the belief, and it's in my book, I talk about the belief, was that, you know, if God decreed you to get hurt, you would, and so they put everything on God.
[SPEAKER_01]: So if anybody died, got hurt or anything, it was God's will, and there was a lot of death in that,
[SPEAKER_01]: group, a lot of death.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you can imagine there's horror stories about people getting electrocuted and drowning and building a sandcastle, these kids aren't at caves and just all kinds of things that you wouldn't think that would happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's because they're superior than any other human on earth and if God wants them to live, then he'll protect them and they can do that nine-year-olds driving trucks running over children all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just the
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know anything different at the time, but to answer your question, as I'm brawling and getting smarter and getting stronger and realizing that there's something more than this, then I decide that I want to leave, but I don't know how to put it together, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just so oppressed and I have no support.
[SPEAKER_01]: No one's ever left the cult and got away.
[SPEAKER_01]: And all that's about to pass.
[SPEAKER_01]: And no one before you, you had never heard of this happening where we were.
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if someone did leave, the threat was that it could be in danger of the blood atonement, which is they could be murdered.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they hang that over our head all the time talking about this blood atonement, and you're so afraid of that, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And anyways, so the way I got the strength to leave is my second son, he was 16, and he's going to get his braces on, and we're at my house.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we're talking and I see a puddle of water accumulating on this cement floor which has mud in it by the time you lived in the middle of a dirt hole so there's mud everywhere.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways and I see like this puddle and I realize he's crying so I get real close to him and I put him in my arms and I say son
[SPEAKER_01]: it's going to be okay though the numb your mouth you won't feel it when they pull your teeth whatever I'm telling about these braces and he says no mom it's you I can't handle seeing you this anymore and what seeing you this way anymore and when he said that then something and strongly
[SPEAKER_01]: changed in me and also I realized by staying that my children were suffering and that if I stayed my five beautiful daughters would be just like him, I'm sorry, just like me and my four sons would be just like him and that was a prize I was not willing to pay and that's when I finally had the strength to leave and it took my children to actually wake me up to that because when I came to me I would suffer anything for the kids and I can't think and now you just have to suffer
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, what do you think they saw in you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, were you sitting around crying all day?
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it sounds like you're the strongest fucking woman and I know, I mean, and that's incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: These stories you're telling me, just for giving birth to all these children and all these things that could have gone wrong and did go wrong and doing it a lot by yourself.
[SPEAKER_02]: And first thing other people, I'm quite frankly shocked you didn't become a midwife on the outside and that's what you do for living or go become a doctor.
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, that's incredible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, by deliver 25 babies on my own and then I wanted to get educated because then I realized the risk, you know, God can do so much, but we need to be Educating responsible and I wanted to have something in my arsenal of knowledge in case
[SPEAKER_01]: A baby was coming tangled or breached first or whatever all the things that happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I come to my then husband and say I want to go get educated and he absolutely said there's no way.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so inside I thought then I won't deliver babies because I'm not going to deliver child without this this full knowledge and experience.
[SPEAKER_01]: and have a baby die and then I have to live with that guilt.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not willing to do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I stopped delivering babies.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never picked it back up, which I'm glad I didn't because it would have been quite a different life for me than what I did do ended up creating such success.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the time you don't, you don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the belief then was that women were there for men and men only and then when I finally and you're gonna, I think you'll think this is interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was so brainwashed that I would die, the day I tried to leave him, that I decided I'd take that risk.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I started my planning and I was
[SPEAKER_01]: I took the check out of his checkbook that he didn't know is missing and I wrote it out to gas up the vehicles that I had.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I found some credit cards that I had my name on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never got a credit card in my life, but he owned me so he could pull things out in my name.
[SPEAKER_01]: And and I found out he had him and I found out how much money was on inside grabbed those credit cards.
[SPEAKER_01]: one had four hundred dollars, one had a thousand two hundred.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I'd be able to live a couple of years on that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I was in heaven, like, oh my gosh, we got the money, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And his belief was to starve a woman out.
[SPEAKER_01]: His father taught all his sons that if you can train a horse, you can have a wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: and you need to keep her wanting for everything.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anything I possibly could need, he can't be wanting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just enough to keep me alive, but wanting.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if he could have limited my air to limits, he would have.
[SPEAKER_01]: He limited my water, my food, my shelter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything was so limited and I had to keep coming to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: and say, I need more, I mean, I have eight kids and whatever was going on and he'd give me, you know, if I needed, you know, I don't know, five little subred, he'd give me three, you know, whatever it was, right, you had to make do with what you had.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had to make do with what I had and he made sure it was never enough and it was not because he was poor.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was wealthy.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was to keep me in control and that was how he was trained.
[SPEAKER_01]: But little did he know is that them,
[SPEAKER_01]: the more and more he tried to control and take from me the strong or I got and he couldn't hold me down.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just started, you know, using my creativity and it felt so funny and it truly is almost everything I touched with Trent and Gold.
[SPEAKER_01]: He brought me this old cow her name was Betsy and I sometimes I'm embarrassed when I tell these stories because they sound like they're way back on the little house on the prairie days.
[SPEAKER_01]: but they bring me this cow her name is Betsy and she would give me five gowns a milk in the morning and five gowns a milk in the evening and I would milk her right and then I'd make cheese and sell cheese and she freaking a dorn me and I just loved her and I got there and I'd be milking her and I'd be crying you know the heartache you know whatever the story was going on in my life where I couldn't see my mom and I missed her.
[SPEAKER_01]: was tired of going without her.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was exhausted and I had no help, I didn't have water, didn't have a washing machine, whatever I was going through and I'd be milking her crying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think she felt that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So she just gave me her all and I would take that milk, make cheese, butter, or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm pretty soon I'd make money and then he'd get mad and he'd take her from me.
[SPEAKER_01]: As time went go on no matter what I had, it would just produce and I was able to provide and supplement for my children and then for his kids as well.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was so much fun and I could say.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, of course, like I said, he took her from me because she was so great.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he gave him to his brother.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that would happen all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: You'd wake up one day and also in your house, wasn't yours.
[SPEAKER_01]: He traded one of his brothers for something else.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I ended up in the sheep pen.
[SPEAKER_01]: As he traded our home for something and they gave him a sheep pen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that became my first home after that.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, so he took her from me and she died three days later.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just honestly believe she died of a broken high, I believe she missed me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really do, but anyways, some people get puppies, some get cats, I guess I had a cow, but it's very cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: Very cool.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's so how she died.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's, it's 40 years ago.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but still, I mean, I still think about my dogs from when I'm younger and it breaks my heart to this day.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so I want to talk about that moment of
[SPEAKER_02]: telling the kids leaving the house, going across the border, how did that happen?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I decided I'm leaving, and my children are not American citizens.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am, and one of my daughters was born in Utah, but the rest aren't, and my oldest son has gone to the United States to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's in Denver, Colorado.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what way it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: The boys, the children grow up, you know, get old enough, and they ship them up to the United States.
[SPEAKER_01]: They start working and providing for their family.
[SPEAKER_02]: So they don't have to stay it within the community.
[SPEAKER_02]: They go live real lives.
[SPEAKER_01]: They go off to United States and they start making money.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just the boys, just the boys.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my son had left home and he's like, I think he's 17.
[SPEAKER_01]: Gonna be 18.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he left home already.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm brokenhearted to lose my boy anyway, so I decide to leave and I start my planning so this is so cute So I realized his technique is to keep me pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you can keep me pregnant, he always told me if I can keep you pregnant That will buy me two years
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to be pregnant for nine months and you're breastfeeding, you have a new baby and before you start thinking for yourself, I'm wanting to, you know, you're stronger and you become difficult, you're pregnant again.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he'd carry around this little notebook and his pocket or he would keep encode according to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: All of his wife's,
[SPEAKER_01]: menstrual cycles and there was codes and there was dates like he knew when everybody was ovulating when everything was going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I felt like, okay, if I'm going to get away, I need to make sure I don't get pregnant and he was not going to allow me to go on any kind of rhythm or even abstinence.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wouldn't allow it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had to keep his wife's pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got the courage and bought some spermicide.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's so far dude.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think about it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I got rebellious and I was on the United States doing something and I talked to a girlfriend and she told me about some kind of suppository that's a spermicide and I went and bought like seven boxes of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I think about it now, how much sex I think I was going to have.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyways.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to be prepared according to me, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he never found this in your home, or any help?
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I brought a home.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would have never expected that I would have done something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Definitely.
[SPEAKER_02]: Would it take a long time for you to get pregnant, or he just has to have sex with you once and you would get pregnant?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so, I did pregnant so easy.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't never knew how he figured it out later.
[SPEAKER_01]: I put it together.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had this book.
[SPEAKER_01]: He charted it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He could keep it so straight.
[SPEAKER_01]: So some people asked, how do you have sex with this many women and have all these babies and figured it out?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they were keeping it all charted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would save himself for the ones that needs to get pregnant, if that makes sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he didn't do the full,
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it's not full Montes, full of every scrap, he wouldn't complete his act on every way.
[SPEAKER_01]: He saved himself.
[SPEAKER_01]: My God.
[SPEAKER_01]: He saved his seed for the woman that had to get pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's how he was able to figure it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Some people think, oh, they're just having all the sex.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, they weren't really.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were keeping track of all these women's cycles.
[SPEAKER_01]: And back then, they didn't have an app.
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, where you could just punch the stuff in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had to do it in a way that he keep track.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember mine was like a weird looking kind of starish thing that was my cycle.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could see it through the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't that clever.
[SPEAKER_01]: It'd be an R, which is my nickname arena.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it'd be somewhere in star and then I noticed that the star started showing up right after my period.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think how, well, you know, the dates and times, you know, within the 10 days, there it was.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think, and what is he doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: And sure enough,
[SPEAKER_02]: So, okay, and you said he was coming to the house once a week or so, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, did you know, did you know to leave right after he left the house because then you had seven days before he realized you were gone or how did you plan this?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, so I told him I needed a vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was trying to date another woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had just had some stuff with his brother's wife, which is really interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Later, I found out that they had been sleeping together before marriage, but at the time,
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't supporting him.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was his first wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was causing him a lot of trouble.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I told him, hey, let me go get a vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just need a vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to get out here for a little while.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I come home, I'll get in check and do everything you're asking me for.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he thought he'd let me have this vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't going to finance it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I wouldn't be gone for very long.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I, she said, if you can figure it out, you can go.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he didn't know that I was planning to escape to get away.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did have his permission,
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had figured all the little things I needed to figure out.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had started the process to get my notes where you were going.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he knew I was going to Utah.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's where he would do his pine harvest.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would go up there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had one of his sisters, I ended up raising.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was married and lived up there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I was able to go see her according to him.
[SPEAKER_02]: And I was still part of this cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, they were.
[SPEAKER_01]: Group.
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you call it?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: I call it a cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: They call it the gods people.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what they call it anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, so yeah, I just went on over on this vacation and I knew I was leaving and I thought if they find out I'm leaving it's gonna be over and they'll take my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what did it mean to you to leave?
[SPEAKER_02]: First of all, did you go with all of your kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: I did.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: And to leave didn't mean that you just were gonna announce you're not coming back or you had to like disappear.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I knew he feared the law in the United States.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the only thing I could see is if I could get across that border, then I would be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I was an American citizen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew he feared the law of the land and he, they do a lot of cricket stuff down there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I knew that if I threatened anything that I knew about that kind of stuff, he would be too afraid to do anything.
[SPEAKER_01]: to me, but I had to get across that border.
[SPEAKER_01]: So the hardest thing for me was on the escape was to get across that border.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never knew at what point he would find out that I had gone and then send, you know, I didn't know who he would send after me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Send the men of the church, send his brothers, you know, and he told me he would plaster, wanted posters of me all over,
[SPEAKER_01]: at the border and claiming that I kidnapped his children and he held his brain washing stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: So to paint the picture for you, I finally decide I'm leaving.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to fix the kids' papers and I can't get them fixed.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I decided, okay, just go.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go to the American Council in Huades.
[SPEAKER_01]: and see if they have the kids' papers.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was the first thing I was going to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we had no food because he had gotten mad and went in and took all my food out of the house.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we had obviously turned up some carrots in the garden, so I had goats that I can milk, so it's not like we were starving, but still.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so bone thin and still breastfeeding my baby at the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that morning I get up and I tell the kids we're going on vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they don't know what's going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now if you talk to my daughters or then they see they they kind of saw something, but at the time they didn't I didn't tell them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just get in the pin with forage band and my son has a Toyota truck and he's following behind me and I take at that point and I only had eight of the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: and we're leaving.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know what I was doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just stepped on the gas and they had me so convinced that God would kill me that when I went to leave my house and this something used to make me emotional.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always it's always like a little checker, check, what do you call it like a check mark to see how far I've come when I can tell the story and realize it doesn't pain me.
[SPEAKER_01]: but I was so brainwashed that I would die and I really believed that I would.
[SPEAKER_01]: That some point either God would kill me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so many people had died in the cult for so many weird reasons.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it would cost him nothing to have a car accident and take all my children and I believe that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just thought, okay, Lord, that day, which I think is kind of funny, I grab my baby, I put her on my hip, I always say I spotless my house.
[SPEAKER_01]: If anybody knows me, I'm just a perfectionist, so my cupboards, my everything was spotless.
[SPEAKER_01]: I cleaned up my beautiful home, and I thought, if I'm dying today, I'm gonna leave this place with the clear, clean house and clear conscience.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had done everything I could have.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have it out with God and I really did, I remember the moon was out and I look up at him wherever you think God is at that time and I just tell him, hey, you know, I'm leaving.
[SPEAKER_01]: And until I see you, until I meet you,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to keep going and we'll talk about this when I do, and if you're going to take my life, then take my life now, like I told him, take my life now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't care, but I was not going to stay and raise my kids there.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I stick my foot out the screen door on to outside and look around and nothing happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm scared.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I go a little further and nothing happens and then the door closes and I'm breathing and I'm fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know God can do things strike you by lightning, that's what they tell me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I would just say, when we meet, we'll talk about this, but until you kill me, I'm going to keep going.
[SPEAKER_01]: done in the car and this is is is harrowing as it sounds to get away and what is so funny Rachel is that I did die that day but I didn't understand what kind of death it was is that silent meek obedient fearful hungry scared little girl did die and in her place was me
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never imagined that that's what I feared it and I think this happens to a lot of this.
[SPEAKER_01]: We fear our greatness.
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the time, in my little mind, it's not why I fear they'll do the blood at home and they'll take my life all die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what I thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the truth was that I was afraid of the great woman that I could be.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had never seen what she could do.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that I'd be able to take on these nine kids and raise and support and carry the
[SPEAKER_01]: the burden of a parenthood and healing all by myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: All I could focus on was getting over that threshold without being struck by lightning.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I was open my eyes, I was still alive.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got in the car.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just kept going.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now looking back and it happened almost immediately, immediately.
[SPEAKER_01]: I realized that that little girl did die that day.
[SPEAKER_01]: In a way that in her place was me.
[SPEAKER_01]: even as scary as it was, and this, I had no education.
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's the time to think, what was she thinking?
[SPEAKER_01]: Logically, there was no logic.
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no way I could have pre-organized or planned anything that happened in my whole life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I tell this story to people, when I was in the cult, they would take away everything they could from you.
[SPEAKER_01]: But from me, I'll say.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they never could mess with my imagination.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could imagine anything I wanted.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could imagine that I was the princess of so and so or whatever a little girl's think or as I got older, you know, all the things that I could imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had a great imagination.
[SPEAKER_01]: And in my wildest imagination, Rachel, I never could have imagined the life that I live.
[SPEAKER_01]: never could have ever even fathom that this would be me, internally and externally, anything about the woman that I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so people asked me, well, how did you start to heal from all of that false teaching and brainwashing?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I was overwhelmed, so I did what I imagined any woman does.
[SPEAKER_01]: I first decided to establish truth.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I looked down between my legs and I said, yeah, I have a who I am a woman.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, we got that covered.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's next?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just kept on going and anything that didn't align with who I was as a woman, like this doesn't feel good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to be burnt toast because my hair is not going to grow.
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, I hate the smell of garlic.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not whatever these little things.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then it would get into bigger beliefs and teachings and my body belongs to a man and then I would think, okay, why do I have all these desires?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do I have a heart?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do I have passion?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do I dream?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do I do all the things that I do if it all belongs to a man and then I started putting it together.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what really helped me to undo all the doing that I had been through was looking and learning about who I was and what aligned with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_02]: So at what point did you know that you were out that it was over?
[SPEAKER_02]: Like did he contact you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Was he able to find you, did he send people after you?
[SPEAKER_02]: Or did you never hear from him again?
[SPEAKER_01]: So, nope, I got across the border.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went into the United States and then, of course, he found a way to get a hold of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he thought I was just on a little vacation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, up until Easter Sunday that I was at a park with family members that were there in Utah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And his brother was there and he got a phone call.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, he brought me the phone over and he says, David, wants to talk to you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, I got on the phone and I told him it was over.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then he just told me don't do anything stupid.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be there in a few weeks, whatever, and I said, nope, it's over, I'm done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So according to the belief, you have to go six months with, which is so silly.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyways, you have to go six months without thinking of another man, or dating another man, and your husband's supposed to win you back.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he had six months to win me back, and he never did.
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He never did.
[SPEAKER_01]: You never let him or he never did because, you know, he just he just never he couldn't convince me he never realized how smart I was.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think he had any idea who I was and I remember one of his techniques was he's going to build me this new house and he was going to take me on this honeymoon and all the stuff he's telling me and I'm smiling.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said I was married to you for 19 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I earned that and you never gave it to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're sure not going to give it to me now and I don't want it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he never tried to grab the kids and go, were you living at his sister's house at this time?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I ended up renting my own place.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in Utah for three weeks and rented my own place and started cleaning houses and my son started working.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I had my own place and he was just so naive.
[SPEAKER_01]: He never thought he never in a million years thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't know who I was or what I was capable of.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had no idea.
[SPEAKER_01]: He just thought that I was spiritual and he would come to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I remember one day he just told me this big old story about how, you know, I've mistreated you and he was trying to get me to come back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I told him like you, your sister-in-law ended up with my husband because he'd married his sister-in-law and I said, and your cousin ended up with my husband but I said, and that's great and I said, but in the process I found me, and I ended up with me so I went.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I just thought, it's not for negotiation or discussion or nothing that I couldn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I found myself and I would never go back and I think it shocked the heck out of him.
[SPEAKER_02]: right and then how does that work in the future like can he could was he able to see his kids where were they did he bring them back to Mexico like how did that work.
[SPEAKER_01]: He could have seen the kids anytime he wanted to but he didn't know how to see the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: The only way he knew how to see the kids is if he had something to do with me and if he wasn't having something to do with me, he had no use for the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had, I don't know, at the time he had probably 25 kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how many for sure I could do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not like he wanted to grab them all and bring them back because it was no.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he wasn't a take care of none of his life's wanted him and they sure in the hell didn't want me back, they were glad to get rid of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: They'd have, you know, a little more time for themselves.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I was his favorite.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, it's kidding you.
[SPEAKER_02]: But you think that other people watching you disappear, leave, make it out alive with nine others.
[SPEAKER_02]: Did other women or people start to leave the cult?
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly what happened.
[SPEAKER_01]: So after I was gone for probably nine months or so, and then obviously starting my business, and people women, especially realizing that it wasn't true, that God did not strike me with lightning or...
[SPEAKER_01]: I was able to start making my own money and provide for my family, women started leaving right and left and I would get phone calls all the time and I have to help several women start businesses since they've come to the United States and said I feel like I said a pretty good example because I ended up living through it and not only living but thriving and so all this
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I like to tell the story that my husband told me the husband that I'm with now.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would talk about this horse that he had and that he would bring it into the crown.
[SPEAKER_01]: He'd put up this rope and then the horse would stand as pen.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as time would go on, he would take the rope off and the horse wouldn't even know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Just he'd take it to the pen.
[SPEAKER_01]: The horse never left.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was so used to that rope.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of how I feel the cult was is that there was this invisible rope.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when someone like me broke through and said, you can get through.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there really is nothing that's going to stop you.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no invisible block or whatever it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think once I went and showed that, then women left, right, and left.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, every single one of his brothers have gotten divorced most of them and lost all their wives after all.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you ultimately ended up in Minnesota.
[SPEAKER_02]: Why Minnesota by the way?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I'm in prior league.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but why?
[SPEAKER_01]: Why, so my oldest son was here in prior lake.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_01]: In Minnesota and they were building homes with some families that were up here and then my second son was leaving and coming this way and I just thought I don't want to be without my children and so I just followed behind them and it was quite the story.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I left in February of 2021 and came to Minnesota and had a
[SPEAKER_01]: what they call it, Jackknife, accident, I was pulling the you haul and it was quite the story but we made it here and then I started my business when I was here.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, did you start your, did you, you did the cleaning service while you were in Utah, though?
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had a few clients in Utah, but it wasn't a business that was just a few people that knew me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was, you got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what?
[SPEAKER_02]: Because so, but for time frame, I want people to realize, so you escaped in 2000, right?
[SPEAKER_02]: Correct.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you're saying you relocated to Minnesota just five years ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, tell me where you have 2001.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have the one?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, excuse me.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think it's the 21.
[SPEAKER_01]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: No.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK.
[SPEAKER_02]: So it's been 25 years.
[SPEAKER_02]: that you have been out and living in Minnesota.
[SPEAKER_02]: I want people to hear this though.
[SPEAKER_02]: You relocated to Minnesota with no work history, essentially.
[SPEAKER_02]: No financial literacy, no formal education.
[SPEAKER_02]: You had to learn how to function independently, how to make decisions without permission, and you had to figure out what freedom even meant.
[SPEAKER_02]: While having kids,
[SPEAKER_02]: and providing for all of them.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's an incredible story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And what when doing research about you, this highlighted this, at the time that you escaped, you had signed your name only nine times once on each of your children's birth certificates.
[SPEAKER_02]: I find that fascinating.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got the chills like I tell the story when when a woman's expecting how do we see it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, if she doesn't find out the gender, she's like, oh, if I have a little girl and I'll have two daughters and one son or whatever the story is.
[SPEAKER_01]: And she pictures the pink this and whatever she's going to do and then the doctors and the little back she's in a tape with her when the, you know, she pictures everything she's going to do to have this baby.
[SPEAKER_01]: However, that plays out when I was pregnant.
[SPEAKER_01]: On top of picturing a new boy or girl, whatever I was going to have, I was sit out in the church because I wasn't allowed to have a pencil or a paper because women were not to be educated.
[SPEAKER_01]: My ex-husband hated the fact that I was ever curious or wanted to read.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, why are you doing that?
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: You're my wife.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just need to have kids serve me.
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need all that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I would sit out on the dirt and I would practice signing my name in the sand, handwriting the way I'd remembered it from 5th grade or wherever I was taught, how to handwriting back then they taught it and I'd practice Pamela Jones.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was part of my preparation for when the child was born, because I had to sign their birth certificate.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was such an emotional and hard thing to do, because I was so scared, because it was so legal and so final, and I had to sign my name on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's people that would just do their thumb print, and they would put an X on there.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just a step above that, and the cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I had escaped the cult, I had only signed my name nine times in my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: where is now I sign my name, hundreds and thousands of times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible.
[SPEAKER_02]: All right, tell people really briefly, okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: So you started cleaning homes out of necessity.
[SPEAKER_02]: Now you founded a company that you've built with your children.
[SPEAKER_02]: Your daughters are all of them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, not all my daughters, one of my daughters, my oldest daughter, she works in AI, has this wonderful company that she put together.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's a little entrepreneur, she's always working, creating, and she's been wonderful, quite the inspiration.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have four of my daughters, work with me and one of my sons, and then I have 45 employees.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do the hard stuff, like the stuff that they don't like, the scarier stuff, but they really just make sure it runs smoothly.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I mentioned before, I'm a perfectionist.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really strict with anything I put my name on with training, the quality.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that's a gift that I was born with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then for someone who's still doing the cleaning yourself, or are you managing it now?
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I don't do anything when it comes to gleaming.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I haven't gleamed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't gleamed it in probably 15 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't run the company.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have a beautiful warehouse.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a huge laundry mat.
[SPEAKER_01]: I put in there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a thing that you can imagine.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, amazing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so beautiful.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm whenever I take people in tour and they thought, I just thought it was a you know a Ziploc bag with a couple scrub brushes and a plunger and whatever they're telling it's like, are you kidding me?
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a big laundry mat and I have like, I think 18 vehicles in my fleet and what?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a huge, it's a huge operation and the kids are just there.
[SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to franchise its other cities?
[SPEAKER_02]: There's a
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's for right now it's just here we will be opening up two more locations than franchises but it's on the kids now I've already I have already lived my dream and and I've raised all my kids my babies 27 they're all married my eldest son is 40 going to be 44 and so they kind of you know I felt like I've lived my dreams I'm obviously stepping into this era of my life where I've just turned 60 unfortunately I'm getting all
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I just turned 60 and obviously dropped my memoir.
[SPEAKER_01]: I love inspiring people through my story.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like the number one thing that is the secret last to my story is the success internally and externally of the woman that you see before you today.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like that's what makes this so amazing is that I have every reason to have felt yet I succeeded.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not saying that I am anything greater than anybody else, but I think that we all have that internal desire or guiding that helps us
[SPEAKER_01]: answer whatever it is that we want to do and I love telling women and I can tell you Rachel like I am so about shining the light on the things that unite us and I'm so not for anything that you know I don't know a few of experience but I've seen it a lot where we're just so marketed to market by this market that is you know get it go to this event and buy this and buy this and brands and
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the size is that we are our weight, you know, whatever we do with our face, our health, our work, our marriage is, I mean, we're just so marketed to what is the norm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like a lot of times we're pinned against each other.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, look at your neighbor.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's 10 pounds lighter than you.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's on the newest, I don't know, the vibrating plate.
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I gotta get me one of those.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or this one over here on her, whatever her marriage or her children are in this school or whatever is going on.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like the light has always been shined on these things that we're trying to live up to or accomplish.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like there's so many more things that we haven't common.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like if we would just shine the light on those things that we haven't common in, I say, join arms.
[SPEAKER_01]: My kids get after me because I evidently arm sound like guns or whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, no, you know, you're armed.
[SPEAKER_01]: You join your arm with another woman and say, hey,
[SPEAKER_01]: I may have never lived your story, but I get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, raising your kids on your own, I mean, and the fear that you have, and people say, oh, but I only have two kids, you have nine, and I say, look, when you are on your knees or if you're a praying girl, or you are stressed out or worried for your child, you are a max.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you sit there and say, well, I only have two kids, so I only gonna put two children's worths of food,
[SPEAKER_01]: fear or worry in this little situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, you're not your Max, your Max and my Max is the same.
[SPEAKER_01]: Regardless of what it's causing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that we are, there's more about us that unite is that it ever has separated us.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I am so in a time where I just think, it doesn't matter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I came from a culture.
[SPEAKER_01]: I came from whatever, I almost guarantee you.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we turn the camera around or however you do this, and you were sharing your story,
[SPEAKER_01]: There would be so many pieces of your story that I could relate to, even though I've never had anything to do with your story, obviously, or your mind, that we have in common, as mothers, as women, as entrepreneurs, as living in the day and age that we live, and I am just so about putting those things aside and focusing on the things that we have in common, and we have so much in common, and
[SPEAKER_01]: and I think we can do so much more joining together and allowing everybody to have the story and the other day I was in a big book club doing a presentation and one of the ladies there I don't know what mood she was in or whatever and she just says why have nothing to say that it's nothing in that book that I have anything in common with.
[SPEAKER_01]: And leave it to me, I said, you're a woman, you're a mother, have you ever been scared?
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever felt like you were misunderstood?
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're just kind of cute because that's a name of your show.
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever just felt like people didn't really see you for who you were?
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you ever feel like you didn't get the job that you deserved?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I started pointing out these things and she goes, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, I said,
[SPEAKER_01]: Those things are in my story too.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just maybe a different package, but it's still the same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, I never thought of it that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, we have a lot in common.
[SPEAKER_02]: It is true that when you share your story and you get vulnerable, that's the way to connect with people.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, so many people have to judge other people.
[SPEAKER_02]: Right now especially and you know if people just share their story and things that made them vulnerable Is how I think more people would connect because you are right a lot of these stories have universal themes in them So the things that they've gone through might be completely different, but the themes are all very similar and the feeling So I totally appreciate what you're saying just a few more questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have 31 grandchildren right now
[SPEAKER_02]: nine children.
[SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like they've all, a lot of them have, have, are, are coupled up now, and maybe Mary, not Mary.
[SPEAKER_02]: What are their thoughts on religion and how are they, your kids teaching the air kids?
[SPEAKER_02]: Did any of your kids want to stay in a club?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do they, are they completely religion free now at this time?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so all my children are married and as we mentioned, I have 31 grandchildren and in my group of children I have, there was a little while we had an atheist but not anymore, but there's all kinds of different walks and faith and I just love as a mom showing up and learning about my children in a different light and I think how did one little girl have nine different people so different.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I love that because I learn a new thing about my children and what sometimes when I'm teasing I'll say you know I had nine beautiful babies and I blink my eyes and I won't go put these dog on nice strangers who are you and get out of my house just easy to write but the truth is is they all I think through my example I don't know for sure that I'm putting words in their mouth maybe but
[SPEAKER_01]: Through my example of finding my own way, I encouraged and I set the presidents for them to do the same, and I support them in their journey as they have been figuring it out, and they definitely all are faith bound.
[SPEAKER_01]: They have their faith that have some Jewish children.
[SPEAKER_01]: and then I have just non-denominational people that don't even go to church, but they're outspiritual in their own way and they're raising their families the best they can as I believe everyone in America most of us are doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they have nothing to do with the colony or their father and that's due to their father's choice, not the kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they have just decided that they're going to do what works best for them, and they have big families as you can imagine with so many the numbers of how many grandchildren I have.
[SPEAKER_01]: But the one thing is that they all are on to Panoirs, which I just am just so blown away that if people would have known that this little
[SPEAKER_01]: It literally, according to what people would say about me back in the day, was able to come to America and build this successful business and then write her memoir when I wasn't supposed to even be able to write and tell my story and stand on stage and be vulnerable and my children are just so proud of me.
[SPEAKER_01]: my four sons have not read my book they can't handle it the pain in my story and I keep to them some but I'm okay and we know how it turns out says no mom it makes me so mad I said okay until you're ready but all of my daughters have you know you know joined forces with me when it comes to all of that and we started this little
[SPEAKER_01]: This little group, so we kind of do some videos we've done, like I think, only 10 of them, and it's called Raised By Fire, and it just showcases all the stories that the girls have to tell about being raised by this interesting mother that I was, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know if you ever saw the movie, I can't remember the name of it, but it's Loretta Linde, and it's her life, and she's learned to play the guitar, and she's got the wash machine going, and she's kicking the wash machine, and the kids crying, and she's playing the guitar.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of how I did my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I was kicking the washing machine, making the washing machine work, going out, getting my clients, raising the kids and trying to write my story and being able to put myself out there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's been interesting that it is someone asked me about it and I said, well, it's like putting your legs up in the strips for the whole world to look in.
[SPEAKER_01]: I said, I don't have anything to hide anymore, but it's a, so I feel super vulnerable.
[SPEAKER_01]: But on the other hand, I just feel like if I don't share my story,
[SPEAKER_01]: And if this little girl, even though I'm not little, nothing little about me, I'm a tall, six-foot big girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: But if this girl could actually step into her passions and what I feel that I was here or my purpose and I love doing it, which is sharing my story and inspiring other women and being supportive.
[SPEAKER_01]: And this movement that we can do these hard things and change the future for our granddaughters and our great granddaughters, if we don't do it, who's gonna do it?
[SPEAKER_01]: We know the government's not gonna do it.
[SPEAKER_01]: and it's on us and each one of us matter and we don't have to do it alone.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just feel like that is my passion and my desire, like whatever I can do to help that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I tell people, I want you to stop right now, look 20 years in the future and look at your daughter if you have a daughter or your granddaughter if you get blessed to have granddaughters as well and say, you know, grandma, great grandma, you know, you
[SPEAKER_01]: What was I going to do or I did the best or what are you going to tell her and I said at the end of the day I would hope that we would do at least one thing and I feel like you're sure that this is something that you do You put these stories out there and and even though maybe a lot of the stories You're not telling your daughter to watch per se, but it's your way maybe I'm not putting words in your mouth But changing the world a slight bit where people can be heard
[SPEAKER_01]: And the truth can come out and then you can help offset whatever this world is doing to make this world that much better.
[SPEAKER_01]: And nothing else to show your daughters that they too can stand up and be heard or share these stories.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not trying to say that's what you're doing.
[SPEAKER_02]: I just know what thank you for noticing because I do feel like, you know, I like to put it on a platform.
[SPEAKER_02]: or use this platform to highlight stories of people who have gone through things or have been misunderstood or their narrative has been written for them for so long and they are taking the reins back and you are obviously an example of that.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it's so great to have someone like you on the show.
[SPEAKER_02]: Two more questions.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, where's David now?
[SPEAKER_02]: He
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so if I burned it, no, he probably did some say odds and then burned it.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, he's still in Mexico, he recently has married a 20-year-old and he's 66 years old, but she was not from the cult.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's from one of the, as Chiapas, one of the published communities.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think some of the members, older members of the cult now have gone into the poverty parts of Mexico.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to say they're buying women, but they are bringing money and finances to their parents and return they get that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he has a younger wife and she's just had a little baby farm, and I think he has like, I think 60 children.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's married to his brothers wife, still.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I saw him back and up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe a year ago when I write song he's just the shell of a man my children were devastated I said look at he was a victim to that cult tune.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what the church that cult did to him It's just a shell of a man.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where he's at and no I never see him at all Okay, well good.
[SPEAKER_01]: You are married now.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, this man is American
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so I married to Rick Brown.
[SPEAKER_01]: I met him in my cateau.
[SPEAKER_01]: We met off of the harmony.
[SPEAKER_01]: We believe it or not.
[SPEAKER_01]: No way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I pulled up on the side of his vehicle back then, just back in 2011, I don't know if you remember if you ever wore him, but they were wearing low rider jeans.
[SPEAKER_01]: You remember everybody's butt.
[SPEAKER_01]: She's grossing it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, of course, I'm wearing those.
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, I'm wearing the thong, because you know, I'm seeing all, but whatever.
[SPEAKER_01]: So after driving for an hour I show up in the parking lot and our vehicles are side by side but opposites and we're talking, he's a beautiful man and gorgeous smile and then I finally think I'll shoot, I'm going to have to get out of this car, I'm at the shake, oh my good, he's back into my pants.
[SPEAKER_01]: and get into his vehicle and you know he's going to check your ass out, you know, even if I was in my 40s.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I look at him and I said, well, do you want to write with me or should I write with you?
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, oh, no, come right with me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've done.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then I just bit the bull and I said, well, do you want to check out my ass before I get in your car?
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, no, just give the car.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's so embarrassed.
[SPEAKER_01]: He looked away and I shimmyed all my goodies back in my pants and here we are about 14 years later and has been quite a ride and he's just a beautiful man and has been a great support.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's really good friends with my son.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a little bit my ex.
[SPEAKER_01]: We are a little bit younger than me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my son and him are like 15 years apart.
[SPEAKER_01]: their best friends and I had to lay him straight one day I said you can't go talk about how hot your wife is to her son you can't do that you can't guide talk to my boy about me and that was hard he had to learn a few things but he's been amazing yeah he's got two children and seven grand kisses well
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a lot of extra time on our hands, but and he's he was did you have any knowledge about what the cult life was or you had to explain all of this down well if I would have put on my profile nine kids and escaped a cult
[SPEAKER_01]: I would have never got a date so I think this goes along with your misunderstood story is was so I showed up there And on the profile they asked me how many kids under the age of 18?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I only had three at the time So I answered that correctly.
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I met him, you know, I didn't think anything would happen And he invited me over to his house The second date and I told him look If you're looking for a cookie or whatever that is I said I'm not your girl
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he told me hey my father raised me right so that got my interest I went and spent we spent eight hours He introduced me to the sun we visited whatever and we weren't dating so then I went home in a few weeks later He invited me again and again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I told him look at I know you consider this a third day Whatever I said if you're looking for whatever that is
[SPEAKER_01]: little bit of that kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it sounds fun and all but I'm not your girl.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, he says, now I'm a gentleman and my father raised me right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that really helped us meet trust and get to know him.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so that kind of how it happened, we ended up deciding to be together.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've been together.
[SPEAKER_01]: We got engaged and married in 2013.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we've been together every sense, and it's just been a lot of fun, but when you ask me about the kids, I told them right from being, I had something to tell him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he says, was it bad?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think later he says he thought I had cancer and I wasn't going to tell him when I said, no, it's actually really good, but I don't know how you'll receive it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says, no worries, when you're ready, tell me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I waited until he got to know me, and he knew I had the three kids, and I had a successful
[SPEAKER_01]: So we dated for a little while and then before I got anything intimate or too serious I said I have four sons and he says you have four sons So you don't have three, you know, I had to do whatever and I said no, I do I have the five daughters too.
[SPEAKER_01]: He says nine and I said yes
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he just quiet for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, I was in his arms and he's like, you know, the more the merrier.
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, after I'm beating you, the more the merrier.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he, you know, I've heard him say it, but it's just been such a blessing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's, he says there's people that do children and definitely I must have been one of them, but,
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying prideful, but I'm just so excited and grateful for the opportunity to get to know myself, but on the top of that, to be able to be the parent that I have been to my children and I feel like I have so much free time.
[SPEAKER_01]: any of those rides or if you do bungee jump you know anything that's so scary that's how I think of it like the most scariest thing I ever did was raise my kids when there were teenagers it was so hard you're trying to keep them from you know having sex before marriage which that didn't work but at least there was no babies and
[SPEAKER_01]: and just drugs and alcohol and then the pain from the cold and then they were targeted because we had all left the cold so everybody was after my kids and all these different little things it was so much work but now I feel like I put in the time and obviously trying to heal myself.
[SPEAKER_01]: They ended up being outstanding members of their community, other church, they're great parents.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear it all the time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I, if I could share my little pictures with you and show you, I had my sixth yearth birthday, and I had a few friends there, and it was just a beautiful emotional, and even people that are close to me, they just thought, I've just never seen your family's family.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know you had these kids, but I've never seen them.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my sister, Vera, I was there.
[SPEAKER_01]: She says, sis, I know you have the nine kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen your kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've just never seen this big beautiful family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're really close.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have each other's back.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, we have hard days.
[SPEAKER_01]: And somebody's someone's mad as someone.
[SPEAKER_01]: Someone borrowed something and returned to broke it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And whatever happens, that's all normal stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: So the holidays are coming up.
[SPEAKER_02]: You've got between you and your husband.
[SPEAKER_02]: I tell me if I'm getting the storm.
[SPEAKER_02]: You have 11 kids then between the days.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: 38 grandkids then between the two of you.
[SPEAKER_02]: So what do you do for the holidays?
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you guys just say okay, no presence?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, so this year we're doing a little bit different.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got myself a assistant.
[SPEAKER_01]: I got smarter this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I got myself a assistant.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I always had an assistant who was my daughter, but now I have another one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they do all my shopping.
[SPEAKER_01]: So what I do is all my children come to my house.
[SPEAKER_01]: They come in the morning.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have bagels, coffee, whatever whoever wants to come see grandma in the morning, they can.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we start the presence.
[SPEAKER_01]: I buy a gifts for all my grandchildren, but I don't buy gifts for my kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not too hard then they do a Christmas exchange amongst themselves and then I make a traditional Mexican meal that it's I feel like it I try to explain this like can you imagine having things giving without a turkey even if you don't like turkey you still cook turkey because it's like it
[SPEAKER_01]: That's kind of how it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I prepare, I make homemade flour tortillas.
[SPEAKER_01]: I big, my husband does the cooking.
[SPEAKER_01]: He does this big old thing of hamburger and potatoes.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's huge.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we make all kinds of salsa and lettuce and cheese and sour cream.
[SPEAKER_01]: And everything you think of in the kids just put together their own burritos.
[SPEAKER_01]: I make big pans of Spanish rice and smash means just really good food.
[SPEAKER_01]: it's the talk of the town.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I work hard and I remind them where we've come from at least once a year and I cook for the whole family.
[SPEAKER_01]: We all get together and I'll help.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then different once of the teenage kids play different games and pianos and we do a video show and that's actually an amazing holiday.
[SPEAKER_01]: When it's over, my house is cleaner than it was when it started.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can imagine what kind of mom I am.
[SPEAKER_01]: But they all help out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now my grandkids, I hear that one of my grand sons is going to be getting engaged during this holiday.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I feel like it's just getting bigger and bigger.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know there's something to be said about being a good grandma and loving grandma.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I just wish I had more energy because I'm really close to my grandkids.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, I deal with the best I can and try to remember it all and I'm always on Grandmother duty.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't babysit, but you know, I just took someone out yesterday.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was birthday and I'm trying to remember and I have this list and I'll take them off and then end up at the bottom and it just never ends.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_01]: But at the end of the day, I asked for it and I wanted it and I feel like like I said earlier when your heart is full, it's full.
[SPEAKER_01]: I guarantee your heart right now.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how many children.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I heard you say daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I know you have a daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a daughter.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I imagine that your heart right now is that the max capacity it can be with love and so is mine.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: No, I totally get that.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I can totally imagine what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it seems like a lot with the numbers, but the love is there.
[SPEAKER_02]: And it just as you get older, you know, I sometimes call my daughter with three dogs, like one of the dog's names, or you know, like actually makes up to me.
[SPEAKER_02]: So, that's the question I actually have for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you talk to your parents or they still alive?
[SPEAKER_01]: So my father and my mother have both passed away and I believe by the time my father and you'll read that in my book and I don't want to spoil it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But by the time my father passed away I was able to actually truly be free.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the biggest question I get when anybody reads my book is that how was I able to forgive my father and
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's a beautiful story, but you'll have to read about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, my father passed away in 2010, so we got to see you where they happy, where they proud, where they angry.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, my mom was victim of the cult so she was in her own turmoil and she lived in Cancun and my father.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he was happy.
[SPEAKER_01]: He didn't come around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really didn't see him a whole lot as you can imagine with the large family that he had.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really never saw them.
[SPEAKER_01]: I imagine it's just a different dynamic.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more of the cult in the religion and that's all they know.
[SPEAKER_01]: but my mom for sure was super proud of me and I sometimes is my biggest heartache is I just wish she was here now and she could see me, you know, using my voice that I hated so bad that I tell people that when I first left the call that I had to learn to use my voice and I was so taught not to speak to strangers or gentiles or anybody and I was soft spoken.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went, the first thing I did is drive through a drive through and try to order a hamburger and it took me at least five times.
[SPEAKER_01]: I tell everybody I felt like a hundred, but five times to drive through a drive through to be able to finally order my burger and use my voice because I was so scared and I'd get there, can I have a hamburger?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they'd come back and say, would you like lettuce or whatever, say, and I just get stern and then I drive out of the line
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was little I'd heard the song to all beef patty special sauce, lettuce cheese pickles onions on a sesame seed bun.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just wanted to say can you give me the song you know, but there wasn't that easy and it took me a lot and then they wanted to know if I wanted to
[SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't use my voice.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was so scared to talk and I didn't know how and had someone told me then that that exercise was going to be the beginning of me using my voice and be able to share my story with the whole world and stand on stages and with such confidence I was just in Jane Fondas.
[SPEAKER_01]: home that she grew up in over a New York speaking, and I couldn't believe this little girl that can order a burger is here telling the whole world all the ins and outs about my story and how I was able to get where I met.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's an incredible story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Again, for people that want to read the whole memoir, it's called The Dirt Beneath the Door.
[SPEAKER_02]: We've only been talking for an hour and a half.
[SPEAKER_02]: You see how much there is to the story.
[SPEAKER_02]: And we've only got to certain points of it.
[SPEAKER_02]: So there's so much in the book.
[SPEAKER_02]: If people want to know more about you or where to buy the book or where to hear you speak, tell our listeners where they can find you.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find me on www.Hamlespeaks.live, that's my website, and you can see all of my stuff is there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can even take a little sneak peek at my daughters and some of the fun stuff we're doing there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Also you can go on Amazon, find the book, because the dirt beneath our door.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm an issue surgeon, find it there.
[SPEAKER_01]: You can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and maybe
[SPEAKER_01]: whatever.
[SPEAKER_02]: It's been an honor to have met you.
[SPEAKER_02]: You're an incredible woman.
[SPEAKER_02]: I can't wait to see like there's so much ahead in your life.
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean you're so young still.
[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm so incredibly happy for you that you found this man that you have this love story with and good luck getting through the holidays with all your kids and your grandkids.
[SPEAKER_02]: But I expect nothing less than, you know, just the best time I've been enjoying everything that life is bringing to you and enjoying this new world for you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much.
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, it was a great time.
[SPEAKER_02]: That yeah, it was amazing to have you on and for our listeners to hear your story.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for listening to Ms.
[SPEAKER_02]: Understood.
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Rachel, you could tell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Please be sure to subscribe to the show and give us a five-star rating and review.
[SPEAKER_02]: You can support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash Ms.
[SPEAKER_02]: Understood with Rachel, you could tell.
[SPEAKER_02]: Do you have ideas for the show or want to reach out email us at info, Ms.
[SPEAKER_02]: Understood podcast at gmail.com.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's spelled MISS understood.
[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much and I'll see you next time.