Trouble on the Horizon for UK-based researchers

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Physics World. Hello, and welcome to the Physics

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World Stories podcast. I'm Andrew Glester. And in

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this episode, we're gonna be hearing about how

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political wranglings between the UK and the European

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Union have been affecting

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UK science.

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We'll hear from someone who has been advising

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the government on their science and research strategy.

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And we'll hear from 2 researchers whose work

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has been significantly affected

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by this political

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situation.

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Way back in June 2016,

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the UK voted

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to leave the European Union

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in a move which has been tagged as

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Brexit.

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To say it's been divisive before and after

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the vote is something of an understatement.

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The vote itself was very close. Just 52%

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against 48%

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voting to leave the collaboration

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that is the European Union.

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With the politicians

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supporting Brexit claiming that they would be able

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to take back control,

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It wasn't exactly clear to many people what

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Brexit meant. We were simply told that Brexit

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means Brexit. This idea of taking back control

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though and this idea of collaboration

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is something that's key to science and and

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UK

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research as we'll find in this podcast.

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Horizon Europe is the European Union's research and

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innovation funding program due to run until 2027.

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It has a budget of €95,500,000,000

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just under that in dollars,

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and as it currently stands, just under £83,000,000,000.

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That money is divided among the EU's 27

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member states

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and 14

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associate nations.

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Horizon Europe officially began in 2021

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and at the end of that year, it

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was agreed that the UK would become an

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associate member as part of the trade deal

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between the UK

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and the European Union. But that agreement has

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become somewhat embroiled

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in the negotiations about how trade works in

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Northern Ireland, something quite different and far removed

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from science research.

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As we'll hear, as the politicians argue and

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debate,

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scientists are left in something of a limbo

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with the finances

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also on hold.

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But first, I wanted to get a sense

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of how these political wranglings

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have been affecting

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scientists themselves.

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Here's Rachel Armstrong.

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I'm professor of regenerative architecture at KAU Leuven,

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which is based in Belgium. It's one of

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the biggest but the oldest university there.

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And,

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what I do is I

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am

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teaching architecture students about the future of the

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built environment, thinking about next generation

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sustainability.

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And in order to do that,

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I participate

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in

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European projects,

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so often as a coordinator

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where I'm working in very ambitious

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multi

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disciplinary

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teams

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that include physicists, engineers,

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biologists,

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urbanists,

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ICT specialists,

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companies,

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and NGOs.

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So it's it's it's a it's a mix

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of

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inputs, and I think the

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amazing thing of being part of a

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European Union

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project,

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which is absolutely priceless,

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is intercultural

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exchange.

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So that people coming from different backgrounds,

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using

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different languages,

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different perspectives, different

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mythologies,

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different

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ambitions in terms of,

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you know, their their own contributions,

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is incredibly

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enriching

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just from a very

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personal perspective.

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And so it's

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really a very healthy diverse network

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where I think we find a lot of

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complementarity.

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And

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even when we write unsuccessful

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bids,

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the learning that goes on in the very

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process of doing that is

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incredibly,

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personally,

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develop you know, the the personal development that

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that goes into that is,

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you know,

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beyond anything that I can get out of

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doing an online course in something or writing

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something on my own. So I feel incredibly

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lucky to be participating in this in this

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kind of work.

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And I think that,

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in terms of,

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the the partnerships,

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and,

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the knowledge

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that can be transferred,

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out of these conversations,

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is really where we need to be in

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terms of facing the big challenges that we

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we we find ourselves right in the middle

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of right now. Before we get into that,

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can you just tell me a bit more

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about your research?

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So the built environment

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contributes 40%

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to total global,

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carbon emissions,

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which comprises,

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embodied carbon which is in the building

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and then

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the building operation so that using energy,

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using resources

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in order to conduct the activities

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of daily life.

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And at the moment the built environment

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works on a paradigm that's been set by

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modern industrial

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development

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which is resource consumptive.

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It imagines

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that innovation

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can be conducted

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without any limits on energy consumption

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so that

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energy in some ways becomes the solution to

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every problem that we have from climbing a

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set of stairs

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to cooling our food

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to

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moving around

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a space

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so that

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so that there's a very particular kind of

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innovation that we have become habituated to

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and that these paradigms

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are really holding us in a situation of

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more of the same but trying to

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mitigate some of the damage

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by

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being a little bit more thoughtful about when

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and how we

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use things, which often means that the weakest

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and poorest members of society

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end up as being the ones that go

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without

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rather than the

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people that have become wealthy,

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from these exploitative systems.

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So the ambition that we have in the

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built environment

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is really how are we going to change

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the fundamental paradigms

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that

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that support our

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urban existence

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so that

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we can be

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almost

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unconsciously

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aware of better resource use,

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smarter relationships

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with the

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obligatory

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need for us to consume things. We're living

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creatures,

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we're not closed systems,

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we have a metabolism

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and we do need to consume

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but we need

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apparatuses

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and devices that help our activities of daily

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living to do so in a way that

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is enlivening for our environment

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and not fundamentally

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destructive.

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So in order to create that change we

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need ambitious

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groups of thinkers coming from multiple

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disciplines

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that can simultaneously

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think about the science that's underpinning

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the emerging technologies that can help us do

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this.

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So can we have more biologically

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compatible

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and

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discursive

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forms of technology

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that help us negotiate

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resource circularity

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rather than demand

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certain kinds of resources.

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But we also

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need the social and cultural interfaces

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that help us relate

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to and understand how to use these technologies

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and how we can

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develop an economics

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that the distribution

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of resource

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that comes from the incorporation of these new

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technologies

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and the social systems that emerge from them

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to actually make a fairer society

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so that we're not leaving

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poor and marginalised

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people

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at

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the

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at the very edges

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of what might be considered to be a

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good livable

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existence on a planet that is incredibly stressed

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and undergoing multiple environmental

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catastrophes.

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I didn't want this podcast to be entirely

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about the political situation, so I hope you

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don't mind that we're just sharing some of

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the important and interesting research. But also, this

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podcast is about the impact of Brexit.

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Here's Rachel again. Well, in 2016,

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I was actually at a

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a workshop

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at the Robert Rauschenberg,

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Foundation working with a team of wonderful,

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thinkers and creative artists,

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thinking about our responses to climate change. It

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was called the Rising Waters CONFAB

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and it was led by an artist called

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Buster Simpson. And whilst I was out there

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I was hearing,

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I mean I wasn't aware of the Brexit

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referendum because

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I'd paid almost

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no attention to politics until that point. Because

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effectively, you know, I'd grown up in a

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society where, yes, there was the Thatcher years

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and,

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yes, we had a Labour government then followed

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by another Conservative

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government. But on the whole, it felt like

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there were

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swings and balances

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in place. That if we had too much

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of looking after the economy,

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then another movement came along that started to

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look after people.

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So I

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felt fairly

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comfortable

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about the political situation in the UK.

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That changed in 2016 and I remember being

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asked by the Director

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of

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the,

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Robert Rauschenberg Foundation, are you not worried

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about this Brexit referendum?

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And I completely dismissed it. I said, oh,

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don't be silly. You know, it's it's,

296
00:10:25,014 --> 00:10:27,095
it's a a a group of right wingers

297
00:10:27,095 --> 00:10:28,929
that are making a lot fuss about the

298
00:10:28,929 --> 00:10:31,730
European Union. The majority of people in the

299
00:10:31,730 --> 00:10:34,070
UK are not right that right wing.

300
00:10:34,449 --> 00:10:34,850
And,

301
00:10:35,329 --> 00:10:37,589
I'm you know, when there's the referendum,

302
00:10:38,449 --> 00:10:40,610
I'm sure that most people will want to

303
00:10:40,610 --> 00:10:43,190
be a part of a European community.

304
00:10:43,995 --> 00:10:46,634
By this time I'd already started the living

305
00:10:46,634 --> 00:10:48,735
architecture project which was the first,

306
00:10:49,995 --> 00:10:52,315
EU project that I coordinated. I've been part

307
00:10:52,315 --> 00:10:54,475
of other projects before then. This is the

308
00:10:54,475 --> 00:10:55,615
first that I coordinated.

309
00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:59,360
And as I returned to the UK and

310
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,259
the implications

311
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,019
of this Brexit

312
00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:04,019
started to unfold,

313
00:11:04,399 --> 00:11:06,179
and I realized that the,

314
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,539
the second referendum wasn't coming

315
00:11:10,144 --> 00:11:10,644
and

316
00:11:11,024 --> 00:11:11,524
that

317
00:11:11,904 --> 00:11:12,725
the hostilities

318
00:11:15,665 --> 00:11:16,485
about the nationalistic

319
00:11:16,865 --> 00:11:17,365
hostilities

320
00:11:17,665 --> 00:11:19,745
that were being enacted you know in the

321
00:11:19,745 --> 00:11:20,245
media,

322
00:11:20,945 --> 00:11:21,684
in conversations,

323
00:11:23,665 --> 00:11:24,325
you know

324
00:11:24,669 --> 00:11:28,029
things that had had really been dealt with

325
00:11:28,029 --> 00:11:30,610
and suppressed socially. You know, Britain was multicultural

326
00:11:30,830 --> 00:11:32,910
and and and and didn't really like this

327
00:11:32,910 --> 00:11:34,049
kind of white nationalism.

328
00:11:34,990 --> 00:11:37,389
But now it started to to to show

329
00:11:37,389 --> 00:11:39,615
its its its kind of ugly face and

330
00:11:39,615 --> 00:11:41,855
seem to be given space to grow. So,

331
00:11:42,095 --> 00:11:43,475
figures like Nigel Farage,

332
00:11:44,174 --> 00:11:45,955
were incredibly divisive.

333
00:11:46,575 --> 00:11:46,975
And,

334
00:11:47,455 --> 00:11:50,174
the irritation that I felt, you know, with

335
00:11:50,174 --> 00:11:53,360
the promotion of these extreme points of views

336
00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,279
is as if this was part of a

337
00:11:55,279 --> 00:11:56,259
normal conversation

338
00:11:56,879 --> 00:11:59,600
really started to jar. And the government didn't

339
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,360
seem to be putting any of this back

340
00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,279
in its box. And by the time that

341
00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:04,420
we reached 2019,

342
00:12:05,304 --> 00:12:07,725
I had made a firm decision

343
00:12:08,105 --> 00:12:09,404
that the incredible

344
00:12:09,785 --> 00:12:11,165
experiences and relationships

345
00:12:11,545 --> 00:12:13,865
and the future of my own research and

346
00:12:13,865 --> 00:12:14,845
personal development

347
00:12:15,304 --> 00:12:18,504
was now at stake because the government seemed

348
00:12:18,504 --> 00:12:19,725
to be playing games

349
00:12:21,079 --> 00:12:23,579
with what Brexit actually meant

350
00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,679
and that made it impossible for me to

351
00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,679
plan. I didn't know if we were going

352
00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:30,919
to be an associated country, whether we weren't

353
00:12:30,919 --> 00:12:32,839
going to have any part at all in

354
00:12:32,839 --> 00:12:34,620
the Horizon Europe projects

355
00:12:36,075 --> 00:12:39,674
or what my status as an international researcher

356
00:12:39,674 --> 00:12:41,995
was going to be. And I also wanted

357
00:12:41,995 --> 00:12:42,654
to protect

358
00:12:43,195 --> 00:12:44,975
the teams of people that

359
00:12:45,514 --> 00:12:48,014
I'd already started to work with on this

360
00:12:48,554 --> 00:12:49,695
journey as a coordinator.

361
00:12:50,730 --> 00:12:53,289
So 20 2019 was a tipping point for

362
00:12:53,289 --> 00:12:53,789
me,

363
00:12:54,330 --> 00:12:57,370
where the government took a turn where it

364
00:12:57,370 --> 00:12:58,730
looked like we were going to go for

365
00:12:58,730 --> 00:12:59,470
the hardest

366
00:12:59,769 --> 00:13:00,269
possible

367
00:13:00,649 --> 00:13:01,149
imaginable

368
00:13:01,610 --> 00:13:04,024
Brexit. We still didn't really know what that

369
00:13:04,024 --> 00:13:04,524
meant

370
00:13:04,985 --> 00:13:05,384
and,

371
00:13:05,945 --> 00:13:06,924
I just thought

372
00:13:07,304 --> 00:13:10,184
I really can't risk this. I can't risk

373
00:13:10,184 --> 00:13:12,045
the damage to,

374
00:13:12,745 --> 00:13:14,205
my career, my relationships

375
00:13:14,860 --> 00:13:15,919
and also to

376
00:13:16,540 --> 00:13:17,279
the the future

377
00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:20,059
of the work that I wanted to be

378
00:13:20,059 --> 00:13:20,960
able to

379
00:13:21,419 --> 00:13:21,919
develop

380
00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:23,120
because

381
00:13:24,460 --> 00:13:27,355
having then worked, you know, we pretty much

382
00:13:27,355 --> 00:13:31,375
completed the living architecture project in 2019 then

383
00:13:32,394 --> 00:13:34,875
and there were opportunities to roll on some

384
00:13:34,875 --> 00:13:37,355
of these developments and the living architecture project

385
00:13:37,355 --> 00:13:39,350
just to put it in the context of

386
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:40,810
the work I was doing,

387
00:13:41,750 --> 00:13:44,470
was a platform that was really looking to

388
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:46,330
take us off fossil fuel dependency,

389
00:13:47,029 --> 00:13:48,889
working on a lower energy

390
00:13:49,509 --> 00:13:50,009
understanding

391
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:51,610
of a household,

392
00:13:53,035 --> 00:13:55,215
installing a circular economy

393
00:13:55,675 --> 00:13:57,375
through a series of bio

394
00:13:58,955 --> 00:13:59,455
reactors,

395
00:13:59,835 --> 00:14:01,695
so microbial fuel cells

396
00:14:03,274 --> 00:14:04,095
and photobioreactors

397
00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:06,539
using microorganisms

398
00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:08,379
to harvest energy

399
00:14:08,839 --> 00:14:09,339
from

400
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:10,220
light

401
00:14:10,759 --> 00:14:12,379
and household waste

402
00:14:13,079 --> 00:14:15,879
and reuse that in creative ways as if

403
00:14:15,879 --> 00:14:17,980
it's being transformed through the soil

404
00:14:18,625 --> 00:14:19,764
back in the household.

405
00:14:20,144 --> 00:14:21,904
And so the developments in this, I mean,

406
00:14:21,904 --> 00:14:23,745
it was a challenge to get through the

407
00:14:23,745 --> 00:14:25,204
project. It was ambitious.

408
00:14:25,904 --> 00:14:28,404
It did require us to work through some

409
00:14:29,584 --> 00:14:30,084
logical

410
00:14:30,464 --> 00:14:30,964
and

411
00:14:31,424 --> 00:14:34,449
practical knots, but we got there and I

412
00:14:34,449 --> 00:14:35,429
think in 2019

413
00:14:35,889 --> 00:14:37,990
we really felt like we were an integrated

414
00:14:38,049 --> 00:14:38,549
team.

415
00:14:39,649 --> 00:14:41,569
So so this was very important to me

416
00:14:41,569 --> 00:14:44,230
to in order to be able to address

417
00:14:44,289 --> 00:14:46,549
the big challenges that we were facing

418
00:14:47,764 --> 00:14:50,004
that I needed a research platform that would

419
00:14:50,004 --> 00:14:52,184
enable this and wouldn't become protectionist

420
00:14:52,565 --> 00:14:54,345
and and kind of constrain

421
00:14:55,205 --> 00:14:58,024
British researchers only to working with British

422
00:14:59,125 --> 00:14:59,625
partners

423
00:14:59,925 --> 00:15:00,425
or

424
00:15:01,190 --> 00:15:03,769
to be on the receiving end of invitations

425
00:15:04,070 --> 00:15:07,049
from European partners that were then the coordinators

426
00:15:07,669 --> 00:15:10,490
putting together their vision of

427
00:15:11,350 --> 00:15:13,929
the future of our societies

428
00:15:14,309 --> 00:15:15,830
and you know how we were going to

429
00:15:15,830 --> 00:15:16,330
tackle

430
00:15:16,684 --> 00:15:18,924
things like climate change so that we we

431
00:15:18,924 --> 00:15:19,825
would be followers

432
00:15:20,365 --> 00:15:22,924
and and not visionaries in this, you know,

433
00:15:22,924 --> 00:15:24,384
in in the most incredible,

434
00:15:25,964 --> 00:15:27,804
research fund, I think, in in in the

435
00:15:27,804 --> 00:15:30,865
world. There is there is no other fund

436
00:15:31,610 --> 00:15:33,470
that that we have access to,

437
00:15:34,009 --> 00:15:37,309
like the European Union's Horizon Europe Programme.

438
00:15:37,690 --> 00:15:39,450
And I wanted to be part of that

439
00:15:39,450 --> 00:15:41,470
that much that, yes, I decided,

440
00:15:42,089 --> 00:15:44,029
to look for a a job abroad.

441
00:15:44,794 --> 00:15:47,274
And very fortunately, I landed 1 at at

442
00:15:47,274 --> 00:15:49,754
Kai Uleven. I I have I have have

443
00:15:49,754 --> 00:15:53,294
have absolutely no regrets in doing that. And,

444
00:15:54,235 --> 00:15:55,995
yeah, I I and and and I'm here

445
00:15:55,995 --> 00:15:57,879
to help my my British collaborators

446
00:15:58,259 --> 00:16:00,660
as well. We'll come back to Rachel on

447
00:16:00,660 --> 00:16:02,360
both the desire and difficulties

448
00:16:02,740 --> 00:16:04,440
of involving the UK scientists

449
00:16:04,820 --> 00:16:05,960
later in the podcast.

450
00:16:06,419 --> 00:16:08,500
It's safe to say that Brexit has been

451
00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:10,534
politically damaging to individuals

452
00:16:11,154 --> 00:16:12,294
not least to consecutive

453
00:16:12,995 --> 00:16:13,815
prime ministers.

454
00:16:14,514 --> 00:16:15,975
The conservative prime minister

455
00:16:16,355 --> 00:16:19,394
David Cameron who announced that the referendum on

456
00:16:19,394 --> 00:16:21,634
Brexit would take place and was still prime

457
00:16:21,634 --> 00:16:24,914
minister when the results came in resigned on

458
00:16:24,914 --> 00:16:26,569
the back of those results.

459
00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:27,850
His successor

460
00:16:28,230 --> 00:16:29,289
also the conservative

461
00:16:29,750 --> 00:16:32,789
Theresa May resigned after not being able to

462
00:16:32,789 --> 00:16:35,289
get a Brexit deal through parliament.

463
00:16:35,909 --> 00:16:38,809
She was replaced by another conservative prime minister

464
00:16:39,284 --> 00:16:40,184
Boris Johnson

465
00:16:40,565 --> 00:16:43,605
whose tenure as prime minister ended recently after

466
00:16:43,605 --> 00:16:44,825
a series of scandals.

467
00:16:45,204 --> 00:16:48,084
He had promised an oven ready deal for

468
00:16:48,084 --> 00:16:48,584
Brexit

469
00:16:48,964 --> 00:16:51,059
which would just need to be ratified.

470
00:16:52,019 --> 00:16:54,740
The fact that that wasn't quite true is

471
00:16:54,740 --> 00:16:57,700
where these difficulties for Horizon Europe and UK

472
00:16:57,700 --> 00:16:58,200
scientists

473
00:16:58,740 --> 00:17:02,100
are centered. From University College London, here's professor

474
00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:04,599
Graham Reid, who's been advising the government

475
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:06,680
on their UK science policy.

476
00:17:07,634 --> 00:17:10,515
I'm professor of science and research policy at

477
00:17:10,515 --> 00:17:11,015
UCL,

478
00:17:11,955 --> 00:17:14,855
and I've taken an interest in

479
00:17:15,315 --> 00:17:17,414
the the impact of Brexit

480
00:17:17,955 --> 00:17:19,654
on research and innovation

481
00:17:20,609 --> 00:17:21,089
since,

482
00:17:21,410 --> 00:17:22,549
before the,

483
00:17:23,009 --> 00:17:26,369
referendum on, EU membership, in fact. And,

484
00:17:27,170 --> 00:17:28,390
so I've been,

485
00:17:29,250 --> 00:17:31,410
I I've worked as an adviser to the

486
00:17:31,410 --> 00:17:34,535
House of Lords Science and Technology Committee during

487
00:17:34,535 --> 00:17:35,674
a couple of inquiries

488
00:17:35,975 --> 00:17:37,275
on Brexit. And,

489
00:17:38,375 --> 00:17:41,414
together with sir Adrian Smith, I wrote a

490
00:17:41,414 --> 00:17:42,715
report for the

491
00:17:43,095 --> 00:17:44,955
science minister of the day

492
00:17:45,335 --> 00:17:46,715
about what the UK

493
00:17:47,259 --> 00:17:49,900
should do in the event that we do

494
00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:53,179
not associate with Horizon Europe. So this has

495
00:17:53,179 --> 00:17:54,720
been a a long standing,

496
00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:57,519
point of interest for me.

497
00:18:00,075 --> 00:18:02,795
Professor Graham Reed studied physics at Robert Gordon

498
00:18:02,795 --> 00:18:03,295
University

499
00:18:03,835 --> 00:18:06,234
and then began his career at the National

500
00:18:06,234 --> 00:18:07,295
Engineering Laboratory,

501
00:18:07,674 --> 00:18:09,694
where he worked for almost 10 years.

502
00:18:10,075 --> 00:18:12,234
I wondered how it worked when you're advising

503
00:18:12,234 --> 00:18:14,519
the government and the House of Lords. Yeah.

504
00:18:14,519 --> 00:18:16,599
So with the House of Lords, I was

505
00:18:16,599 --> 00:18:19,740
asked by the the House of Lords committee

506
00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:20,859
to,

507
00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:22,619
help them

508
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:23,580
develop

509
00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:25,259
an inquiry

510
00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:26,059
into

511
00:18:26,934 --> 00:18:29,515
the UK's relationship with the EU

512
00:18:29,894 --> 00:18:30,715
on science.

513
00:18:31,815 --> 00:18:33,115
So I

514
00:18:33,414 --> 00:18:36,795
I I if you watch these parliamentary committees

515
00:18:36,855 --> 00:18:39,434
on television, you see a sort of horseshoe

516
00:18:39,575 --> 00:18:42,910
shaped table with committee members around it, and

517
00:18:42,910 --> 00:18:44,910
then some poor soul at the end of

518
00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:46,930
the horseshoe who's being grilled.

519
00:18:48,109 --> 00:18:48,609
Well,

520
00:18:48,990 --> 00:18:52,109
I sat along with the committee on that

521
00:18:52,109 --> 00:18:55,170
horseshoe table, but I was there to advise

522
00:18:55,950 --> 00:18:57,970
the chairman and the committee members

523
00:18:58,484 --> 00:19:01,444
on which witnesses should be called to give

524
00:19:01,444 --> 00:19:01,944
evidence

525
00:19:02,404 --> 00:19:04,484
and what sort of questions they should be

526
00:19:04,484 --> 00:19:06,644
asked and how to make sense of the

527
00:19:06,644 --> 00:19:08,664
sort of material that was coming in.

528
00:19:09,125 --> 00:19:10,805
So at no time was I a member

529
00:19:10,805 --> 00:19:12,164
of the house of lords, but I did

530
00:19:12,164 --> 00:19:13,625
get you know, it was a marvelous

531
00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:14,990
insight

532
00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:18,250
into the back office of parliament. Tell me

533
00:19:18,250 --> 00:19:19,849
a bit about your insight then. What did

534
00:19:19,849 --> 00:19:20,670
you find out?

535
00:19:21,450 --> 00:19:22,910
That committee decided

536
00:19:23,690 --> 00:19:25,309
before the inquiry began

537
00:19:25,849 --> 00:19:28,190
that it was not going to be

538
00:19:28,724 --> 00:19:31,464
partisan on the question. It wanted to discover

539
00:19:31,525 --> 00:19:32,265
the evidence,

540
00:19:33,605 --> 00:19:35,865
rather than try to reach a view

541
00:19:36,484 --> 00:19:39,045
on whether or not the UK should associate

542
00:19:39,045 --> 00:19:41,970
with Horizon Europe. There was lots of debate

543
00:19:41,970 --> 00:19:43,990
about that, there were loads of opinions

544
00:19:44,850 --> 00:19:46,150
bashing about the place,

545
00:19:46,769 --> 00:19:49,670
but it was actually quite light on evidence.

546
00:19:50,609 --> 00:19:52,230
And so they they

547
00:19:52,865 --> 00:19:53,365
scrutinized

548
00:19:54,545 --> 00:19:55,765
both quantitative

549
00:19:56,225 --> 00:19:56,965
and qualitative

550
00:19:57,345 --> 00:19:57,845
evidence

551
00:19:58,305 --> 00:20:01,445
about what the UK's relationship with the EU

552
00:20:01,585 --> 00:20:03,525
actually is on science.

553
00:20:05,029 --> 00:20:06,169
And that proved

554
00:20:06,630 --> 00:20:07,529
more complicated

555
00:20:08,149 --> 00:20:09,609
than I had imagined.

556
00:20:11,029 --> 00:20:13,029
The thing that well, there were two things

557
00:20:13,029 --> 00:20:14,889
that impressed me about that experience.

558
00:20:15,349 --> 00:20:17,690
The first was the level of expertise

559
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:18,889
on the committee,

560
00:20:19,444 --> 00:20:21,144
which was frankly awesome.

561
00:20:22,404 --> 00:20:23,144
There were

562
00:20:23,605 --> 00:20:24,744
highly distinguished

563
00:20:25,365 --> 00:20:25,865
people

564
00:20:26,404 --> 00:20:28,744
with a mixture of career backgrounds,

565
00:20:29,285 --> 00:20:30,345
some of them academic,

566
00:20:30,724 --> 00:20:31,865
some of them industrial,

567
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:33,450
some of them financial,

568
00:20:34,150 --> 00:20:36,250
but a huge body of expertise.

569
00:20:37,750 --> 00:20:39,990
And the other thing that struck me about

570
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:42,710
that committee was that I I spent months

571
00:20:42,710 --> 00:20:44,410
working with them on this inquiry.

572
00:20:45,590 --> 00:20:47,750
And I would say for for most of

573
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:50,045
them, to this day, I don't know where

574
00:20:50,045 --> 00:20:52,365
they stand on the EU because they just

575
00:20:52,365 --> 00:20:54,224
left that outside the door.

576
00:20:55,724 --> 00:20:57,505
They they stuck to

577
00:20:57,884 --> 00:20:58,384
rigorous

578
00:20:59,325 --> 00:21:01,345
evidence gathering and appraisal,

579
00:21:02,205 --> 00:21:05,210
and I was I was really taken by

580
00:21:05,210 --> 00:21:06,809
how much they were able to leave the

581
00:21:06,809 --> 00:21:08,890
politics outside the door when they did the

582
00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:09,390
inquiry.

583
00:21:09,849 --> 00:21:12,329
In my conversations around this topic, I found

584
00:21:12,329 --> 00:21:15,049
that that's certainly not true for everybody. And

585
00:21:15,049 --> 00:21:17,210
I asked professor Graham Reid what his perception

586
00:21:17,210 --> 00:21:19,664
is of this relationship. The the first thing

587
00:21:19,664 --> 00:21:20,965
I'd have to say is that

588
00:21:21,424 --> 00:21:23,205
any discussion about this

589
00:21:23,745 --> 00:21:25,125
tends to provoke

590
00:21:25,424 --> 00:21:27,525
quite strong emotional responses.

591
00:21:28,945 --> 00:21:30,005
It's very difficult

592
00:21:30,465 --> 00:21:31,924
to have a dispassionate

593
00:21:32,705 --> 00:21:34,884
objective discussion about something

594
00:21:35,389 --> 00:21:37,970
that is so emotional in nature.

595
00:21:39,710 --> 00:21:43,009
Almost all the language that's used is pejorative,

596
00:21:45,630 --> 00:21:48,130
whether whether it's meant to be or not.

597
00:21:50,445 --> 00:21:51,105
And the

598
00:21:51,805 --> 00:21:53,025
academic community

599
00:21:54,845 --> 00:21:56,545
have, from the outset,

600
00:21:57,244 --> 00:21:57,744
been

601
00:21:58,045 --> 00:21:59,025
almost unanimous

602
00:22:00,045 --> 00:22:02,865
in their desire for the UK to remain

603
00:22:03,779 --> 00:22:04,840
an EU member.

604
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:07,640
And after the UK left,

605
00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:10,119
the they be they became unanimous

606
00:22:11,059 --> 00:22:13,960
in a desire for the UK to associate

607
00:22:14,019 --> 00:22:15,320
with Horizon Europe.

608
00:22:16,434 --> 00:22:17,815
And that's a mixture

609
00:22:18,595 --> 00:22:19,095
of,

610
00:22:20,835 --> 00:22:21,335
pragmatic

611
00:22:22,275 --> 00:22:23,335
career experience

612
00:22:23,955 --> 00:22:25,654
in partnerships with European,

613
00:22:26,515 --> 00:22:27,734
scientific institutions,

614
00:22:28,799 --> 00:22:29,299
and

615
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,180
there's personal political dispositions

616
00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:34,900
about the UK's relationship with the EU.

617
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,019
So I and I've said to people before,

618
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,640
it's pretty difficult to get a bunch of

619
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,420
academics to agree on anything.

620
00:22:43,734 --> 00:22:45,815
And and here is a topic where you

621
00:22:45,815 --> 00:22:49,095
will find more or less universal agreement that

622
00:22:49,095 --> 00:22:51,174
has been sustained over a period of 6

623
00:22:51,174 --> 00:22:51,674
years.

624
00:22:52,054 --> 00:22:54,634
So it's quite it's got that distinctive characteristic

625
00:22:54,855 --> 00:22:57,815
of pulling the whole academic community together into

626
00:22:57,815 --> 00:22:58,474
one place.

627
00:22:58,980 --> 00:23:00,900
It suggests to me if the whole of

628
00:23:00,900 --> 00:23:02,440
the academic community

629
00:23:02,740 --> 00:23:04,339
pretty much thinks it's the right thing to

630
00:23:04,339 --> 00:23:06,740
do, the likelihood is it's the right thing

631
00:23:06,740 --> 00:23:07,480
to do.

632
00:23:07,940 --> 00:23:10,900
Well, it's it's it's the right thing to

633
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:12,039
do from the perspective

634
00:23:12,615 --> 00:23:14,615
of the academic community, but that's not the

635
00:23:14,615 --> 00:23:16,394
only perspective on the decision.

636
00:23:17,255 --> 00:23:19,275
And therein lies the problem.

637
00:23:19,734 --> 00:23:20,234
Horizon

638
00:23:20,615 --> 00:23:21,115
Europe

639
00:23:21,494 --> 00:23:22,394
is different

640
00:23:23,494 --> 00:23:24,554
to the previous

641
00:23:25,255 --> 00:23:27,595
European programs, and our relationship

642
00:23:28,529 --> 00:23:29,269
is different

643
00:23:29,970 --> 00:23:31,590
with to to with Europe.

644
00:23:32,049 --> 00:23:32,549
So

645
00:23:33,009 --> 00:23:35,250
under the terms of the deal that was

646
00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:36,710
struck in 2019

647
00:23:37,970 --> 00:23:39,830
when we left the European Union,

648
00:23:41,954 --> 00:23:44,454
any participation in Horizon Europe

649
00:23:45,315 --> 00:23:45,815
would

650
00:23:46,275 --> 00:23:46,755
be,

651
00:23:47,234 --> 00:23:49,794
on sort of 1 pound going into Europe

652
00:23:49,794 --> 00:23:52,194
and 1 pound coming back out again. So

653
00:23:52,194 --> 00:23:54,355
the UK would not make a profit or

654
00:23:54,355 --> 00:23:56,214
a loss from our participation.

655
00:23:58,079 --> 00:23:59,779
So the cost of participation

656
00:24:01,519 --> 00:24:02,980
would be paid for

657
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:04,819
by the UK government.

658
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,500
And for the first time ever,

659
00:24:09,274 --> 00:24:11,375
that cost would be tensioned

660
00:24:11,835 --> 00:24:14,174
against other ways of spending the money.

661
00:24:15,914 --> 00:24:17,375
So for 40 years,

662
00:24:18,075 --> 00:24:21,355
participation in framework programs and things was more

663
00:24:21,355 --> 00:24:22,654
or less free money.

664
00:24:23,109 --> 00:24:25,429
You know, you you joined, and the money

665
00:24:25,429 --> 00:24:27,750
just flowed back out again because it was

666
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:30,329
paid for as part of the UK's subscription

667
00:24:31,269 --> 00:24:32,169
to the EU.

668
00:24:32,710 --> 00:24:35,609
It was all covered in our annual subscription

669
00:24:35,750 --> 00:24:36,250
bill.

670
00:24:38,154 --> 00:24:38,654
Now

671
00:24:39,115 --> 00:24:40,494
if we were to associate,

672
00:24:41,115 --> 00:24:43,294
the cost would have to be paid for

673
00:24:43,514 --> 00:24:45,214
in a discrete package.

674
00:24:45,835 --> 00:24:47,774
So you would be asking ministers

675
00:24:48,154 --> 00:24:49,855
to send a check to Brussels

676
00:24:51,179 --> 00:24:51,679
for

677
00:24:52,539 --> 00:24:53,759
about £2,000,000

678
00:24:55,179 --> 00:24:55,759
a year,

679
00:24:57,019 --> 00:24:59,579
which is money that can't then be spent

680
00:24:59,579 --> 00:25:00,639
on something else.

681
00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:04,539
So the so the politics of this has

682
00:25:04,539 --> 00:25:05,599
changed profoundly

683
00:25:06,365 --> 00:25:08,465
in a way that's not always recognized

684
00:25:08,924 --> 00:25:11,184
in the discussion about Horizon Europe.

685
00:25:12,125 --> 00:25:14,224
Okay. So that's interesting. So, essentially,

686
00:25:15,404 --> 00:25:17,565
the the act of Brexit and the deal

687
00:25:17,565 --> 00:25:18,865
that happened means

688
00:25:19,244 --> 00:25:21,244
that we're not arguing about the same thing

689
00:25:21,244 --> 00:25:23,599
anymore, and we're not going to go back

690
00:25:23,599 --> 00:25:26,079
on that, really. That's not gonna happen anytime

691
00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:26,579
soon.

692
00:25:27,599 --> 00:25:29,839
So what's what can we do then? What

693
00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:32,240
is there a replacement? About about a year

694
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:32,740
ago,

695
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,460
the the government

696
00:25:36,625 --> 00:25:37,125
committed

697
00:25:38,464 --> 00:25:38,964
to,

698
00:25:40,144 --> 00:25:42,085
a very large sum of money,

699
00:25:43,265 --> 00:25:45,125
which would be made available

700
00:25:45,664 --> 00:25:46,164
for

701
00:25:46,944 --> 00:25:48,005
UK alternatives

702
00:25:48,625 --> 00:25:49,924
to Horizon Europe

703
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,580
in the event that we do not associate.

704
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,720
When I say a large amount of money,

705
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:58,340
you know, it's it's about

706
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,380
£2,000,000

707
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,140
a year.

708
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,680
So this is this is a lot of

709
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:04,180
money.

710
00:26:06,765 --> 00:26:07,505
That money

711
00:26:07,964 --> 00:26:10,224
can either be used to pay for association,

712
00:26:10,525 --> 00:26:12,285
in which case we send the money to

713
00:26:12,285 --> 00:26:14,444
Brussels, and then it comes back to us

714
00:26:14,444 --> 00:26:16,865
through our participation in European programs.

715
00:26:17,884 --> 00:26:18,384
Or,

716
00:26:18,759 --> 00:26:19,500
and it's an

717
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:20,339
or,

718
00:26:20,679 --> 00:26:22,619
that same money can be used

719
00:26:23,079 --> 00:26:25,640
for some program that is run out of

720
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:26,299
the UK

721
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:27,900
for

722
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:29,579
international collaboration.

723
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,779
And that decision

724
00:26:33,674 --> 00:26:35,455
as to whether or not we

725
00:26:35,835 --> 00:26:37,934
go into to to Horizon

726
00:26:38,634 --> 00:26:39,134
or

727
00:26:39,914 --> 00:26:41,535
do a domestic alternative,

728
00:26:42,394 --> 00:26:44,634
that decision hasn't yet been reached, but it

729
00:26:44,634 --> 00:26:46,710
is it there are signs that it's coming

730
00:26:46,710 --> 00:26:48,309
to a head. In any direction? Do you

731
00:26:48,470 --> 00:26:50,009
can you give me a stare on that?

732
00:26:50,230 --> 00:26:52,549
Right. So yeah. I mean, that's there's there's

733
00:26:52,549 --> 00:26:53,450
your key question.

734
00:26:54,549 --> 00:26:56,089
And, you know, I think

735
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:58,549
if if I was to guess at the

736
00:26:58,549 --> 00:27:00,630
direction, then my guess would be out of

737
00:27:00,630 --> 00:27:03,424
date by the time this podcast was posted,

738
00:27:04,365 --> 00:27:07,005
because it keeps flip flopping around. But let

739
00:27:07,005 --> 00:27:08,704
me give you some of the component

740
00:27:09,005 --> 00:27:10,605
parts of this, some of the some of

741
00:27:10,605 --> 00:27:11,345
the politics.

742
00:27:14,210 --> 00:27:15,829
When we left the EU,

743
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:17,430
part of the agreement

744
00:27:18,450 --> 00:27:21,009
was that the UK would associate with Horizon

745
00:27:21,009 --> 00:27:23,329
Europe. That was actually baked into the deal

746
00:27:23,329 --> 00:27:24,390
we did with Brussels.

747
00:27:25,410 --> 00:27:27,170
But there were lots of other things that

748
00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:29,349
were baked into that deal as well,

749
00:27:30,055 --> 00:27:32,634
including some arrangements for Northern Ireland.

750
00:27:34,615 --> 00:27:35,115
Now

751
00:27:36,615 --> 00:27:39,994
Brussels argues that we have broken the deal

752
00:27:40,055 --> 00:27:41,275
on Northern Ireland,

753
00:27:42,630 --> 00:27:45,349
and we argue that Brussels has broken the

754
00:27:45,349 --> 00:27:46,730
deal on Horizon Europe.

755
00:27:48,309 --> 00:27:50,390
So each is accusing the other of breaking

756
00:27:50,390 --> 00:27:51,930
the deal on a different bid.

757
00:27:53,670 --> 00:27:55,450
There are formal proceedings

758
00:27:55,910 --> 00:27:56,410
underway,

759
00:27:57,585 --> 00:27:58,325
at the moment

760
00:27:58,865 --> 00:27:59,845
where, you know,

761
00:28:00,865 --> 00:28:02,325
Brussels is sort of,

762
00:28:03,345 --> 00:28:06,625
taking proceedings against the UK on Northern Ireland,

763
00:28:06,625 --> 00:28:07,765
and we are taking proceedings

764
00:28:08,304 --> 00:28:12,019
against Brussels on on horizon Europe. So, you

765
00:28:12,152 --> 00:28:13,285
know, it's

766
00:28:14,050 --> 00:28:18,799
you know, this relationship is quite delicate. Prime

767
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:20,259
minister Liz Choss,

768
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,585
and business secretary Jacob Rees Mogg, who, of

769
00:28:24,585 --> 00:28:26,845
course, is now the secretary of state responsible

770
00:28:26,984 --> 00:28:28,204
for the science budget.

771
00:28:28,984 --> 00:28:31,964
You know, they've both got had quite clearly

772
00:28:32,105 --> 00:28:34,744
expressed views on Europe, and they will be

773
00:28:34,744 --> 00:28:35,964
key decision makers.

774
00:28:37,649 --> 00:28:40,529
So you can you can deduce from that

775
00:28:40,529 --> 00:28:41,349
what you will,

776
00:28:44,609 --> 00:28:46,869
with with the trust government

777
00:28:47,329 --> 00:28:48,309
taking shape,

778
00:28:50,210 --> 00:28:51,589
I won't be surprised

779
00:28:52,585 --> 00:28:54,744
if this gets brought to our head. It's

780
00:28:54,744 --> 00:28:55,565
been lingering

781
00:28:56,105 --> 00:28:57,485
for far too long.

782
00:28:58,265 --> 00:28:59,805
It needs to be resolved.

783
00:29:00,424 --> 00:29:02,825
We're in the worst of all possible positions

784
00:29:02,825 --> 00:29:04,605
at the moment, where we're neither

785
00:29:04,985 --> 00:29:06,684
in EU programs,

786
00:29:07,539 --> 00:29:10,200
nor are we spending the available money

787
00:29:10,740 --> 00:29:12,119
on a domestic alternative.

788
00:29:12,420 --> 00:29:13,859
The money is just sitting there in a

789
00:29:13,859 --> 00:29:16,180
treasury bank account where it's doing no use

790
00:29:16,180 --> 00:29:18,920
for anyone. So Jacob Briesmog is a slightly,

791
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:22,305
a person who divides opinion, should we say.

792
00:29:22,785 --> 00:29:25,924
People have differing views on him. He is,

793
00:29:26,545 --> 00:29:28,485
as I understand it, minister for

794
00:29:29,025 --> 00:29:30,164
business, energy,

795
00:29:30,705 --> 00:29:33,664
and industrial strategy. How does the science budget

796
00:29:33,664 --> 00:29:36,750
fit into into that? The science budget,

797
00:29:38,009 --> 00:29:41,230
like any other block of public spending,

798
00:29:42,730 --> 00:29:43,230
is

799
00:29:43,609 --> 00:29:44,509
it's it's

800
00:29:44,890 --> 00:29:45,390
size

801
00:29:46,170 --> 00:29:48,109
is determined by the Treasury,

802
00:29:49,085 --> 00:29:49,904
and its administration

803
00:29:51,404 --> 00:29:54,065
is determined by a government department.

804
00:29:55,805 --> 00:29:58,384
And in and for many years,

805
00:29:59,164 --> 00:30:01,345
the science budget has been,

806
00:30:02,125 --> 00:30:02,944
the responsibility

807
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:05,779
of the business department.

808
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,640
The business department has taken on lots of

809
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,480
different shapes, and there's been you know, the

810
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,240
names have changed and all the rest of

811
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,179
it, but actually the that budget

812
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,019
sits in the business department,

813
00:30:16,375 --> 00:30:18,474
and they then hand it over to UKRI

814
00:30:19,095 --> 00:30:19,914
and to,

815
00:30:20,775 --> 00:30:23,095
the to of the the the to to

816
00:30:23,095 --> 00:30:23,595
other

817
00:30:23,894 --> 00:30:24,394
institutions.

818
00:30:26,454 --> 00:30:28,394
But the secretary of state

819
00:30:29,390 --> 00:30:32,529
who's responsible for the science budget is now

820
00:30:32,829 --> 00:30:35,230
Jacob Rees Mogg as of a day or

821
00:30:35,230 --> 00:30:35,970
2 ago.

822
00:30:36,669 --> 00:30:38,669
So he's a big player in this. He

823
00:30:38,669 --> 00:30:39,069
will,

824
00:30:39,630 --> 00:30:41,730
I imagine he will, have

825
00:30:42,214 --> 00:30:44,555
a junior minister, the science minister,

826
00:30:45,095 --> 00:30:47,734
who will have a closer day to day

827
00:30:47,734 --> 00:30:48,234
oversight.

828
00:30:48,535 --> 00:30:50,154
But at cabinet level,

829
00:30:50,615 --> 00:30:52,795
at that key decision making level,

830
00:30:53,335 --> 00:30:55,755
it will be, the secretary of state.

831
00:30:56,330 --> 00:30:57,230
And something

832
00:30:57,609 --> 00:30:59,309
like Horizon Association

833
00:31:00,330 --> 00:31:01,070
is sufficiently

834
00:31:01,609 --> 00:31:02,109
complicated

835
00:31:02,650 --> 00:31:04,029
and high profile

836
00:31:04,490 --> 00:31:05,390
and expensive

837
00:31:06,730 --> 00:31:09,930
for it to, I think, be decided at

838
00:31:09,930 --> 00:31:10,910
cabinet level.

839
00:31:11,695 --> 00:31:13,695
In the Physics World Magazine this month and

840
00:31:13,695 --> 00:31:16,515
online, you'll find an article by Michael Allen

841
00:31:16,815 --> 00:31:20,174
entitled UK Science Dips Below the Horizon. And

842
00:31:20,174 --> 00:31:22,255
you can find much more about this topic

843
00:31:22,255 --> 00:31:25,154
there, including learning that Lord John Krebs

844
00:31:25,599 --> 00:31:27,759
who co authored a report in early August

845
00:31:27,759 --> 00:31:30,179
from the House of Lords Science Technology Committee

846
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:32,819
said that the lack of clear strategy

847
00:31:33,119 --> 00:31:35,759
to realize the government's ambition to make the

848
00:31:35,759 --> 00:31:37,779
UK a technology and science

849
00:31:38,085 --> 00:31:38,904
global superpower

850
00:31:39,525 --> 00:31:41,204
felt a little like setting off on a

851
00:31:41,204 --> 00:31:43,704
marathon with your shoelaces tied together,

852
00:31:44,005 --> 00:31:46,565
and cautioned that the danger was that the

853
00:31:46,565 --> 00:31:48,825
UK would become a bureaucracy superpower

854
00:31:49,444 --> 00:31:52,470
rather than a science superpower. Let's get back

855
00:31:52,470 --> 00:31:55,269
to some actual science, shall we? Here's Karen

856
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:55,769
Kirby.

857
00:31:56,309 --> 00:31:58,809
I lead the proton therapy

858
00:31:59,109 --> 00:32:01,669
research work in Manchester between the University of

859
00:32:01,669 --> 00:32:04,945
Manchester and the Christie NHS Foundation Trust. The

860
00:32:04,945 --> 00:32:07,265
role was set up in 2015 when I

861
00:32:07,265 --> 00:32:07,765
joined,

862
00:32:08,705 --> 00:32:11,984
the group. And the idea was, the NHS

863
00:32:11,984 --> 00:32:12,725
had invested

864
00:32:13,184 --> 00:32:14,005
over 250,000,000

865
00:32:14,865 --> 00:32:17,765
in proton therapy. NHS doesn't fund research.

866
00:32:18,099 --> 00:32:20,500
And therefore, my job was to build up

867
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:22,599
a research capability in Manchester

868
00:32:23,299 --> 00:32:25,559
in the clinical proton therapy center,

869
00:32:26,659 --> 00:32:28,440
to, you know, develop a research

870
00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:31,379
activity, which would basically keep the NHS at

871
00:32:31,379 --> 00:32:32,359
the cutting edge.

872
00:32:32,794 --> 00:32:35,194
Proton therapy is a type of radiotherapy. It's

873
00:32:35,194 --> 00:32:36,095
part of the toolbox.

874
00:32:36,634 --> 00:32:39,595
And it the way it goes the way

875
00:32:39,595 --> 00:32:42,815
protons stop in matter means that they deposit

876
00:32:43,914 --> 00:32:45,694
less damage as they go in,

877
00:32:46,079 --> 00:32:48,159
and then they come to a stop with

878
00:32:48,159 --> 00:32:50,079
something called the Bragg peak. So, the idea

879
00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:51,599
is, so you put most of the damage

880
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:53,380
into the tumor, which you want to kill,

881
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,759
and you put less damage into the surrounding

882
00:32:55,759 --> 00:32:56,579
healthy tissue,

883
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:58,799
which you don't want to damage because that

884
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:01,275
causes side effects in patients. Is it just

885
00:33:01,434 --> 00:33:03,615
people in Manchester who are doing this research?

886
00:33:03,994 --> 00:33:05,994
Effectively, we act as a national center. So

887
00:33:05,994 --> 00:33:08,394
we were really lucky. So the NHS so

888
00:33:08,394 --> 00:33:10,555
3 of the rooms are used as clinical

889
00:33:10,555 --> 00:33:13,275
gantries and treat patients every day. And the

890
00:33:13,275 --> 00:33:14,974
4th room, the Christie Charity,

891
00:33:16,170 --> 00:33:18,350
raised money in the northwest predominantly.

892
00:33:19,049 --> 00:33:20,890
And so we have a wonderful research room,

893
00:33:20,890 --> 00:33:23,130
so we can emulate the clinical beam in

894
00:33:23,130 --> 00:33:24,730
the research room, but we don't use it

895
00:33:24,730 --> 00:33:26,910
to treat patients. But we can effectively,

896
00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:29,865
do research work on clinical beam. So we

897
00:33:29,865 --> 00:33:31,865
can do biology, we can do physics, we

898
00:33:31,865 --> 00:33:34,265
can do engineering. And the whole idea is

899
00:33:34,265 --> 00:33:36,424
that that research then feeds into a pipeline

900
00:33:36,424 --> 00:33:37,565
that goes into the clinic,

901
00:33:38,505 --> 00:33:40,125
so that we can benefit patients.

902
00:33:40,904 --> 00:33:43,829
We have, a sister center in London, which

903
00:33:43,829 --> 00:33:45,289
opened last December.

904
00:33:47,109 --> 00:33:47,609
And

905
00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:50,950
so we work with people in London. They

906
00:33:50,950 --> 00:33:53,049
don't have they have a,

907
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:54,410
a gantry

908
00:33:55,269 --> 00:33:57,109
like the one that's used to treat patients.

909
00:33:57,109 --> 00:33:59,414
We have a bespoke research room.

910
00:34:00,195 --> 00:34:01,875
They do this as well, obviously. Could you

911
00:34:01,875 --> 00:34:02,914
tell me a bit about,

912
00:34:03,634 --> 00:34:05,634
the sort of patients who might be benefiting

913
00:34:05,634 --> 00:34:07,475
from this? So one of the,

914
00:34:07,955 --> 00:34:08,454
major,

915
00:34:09,315 --> 00:34:11,255
reasons for proton therapies for pediatrics

916
00:34:11,619 --> 00:34:13,539
and teenage and young adult adults. So that's

917
00:34:13,539 --> 00:34:15,539
from naught all the way up to 25,

918
00:34:15,539 --> 00:34:16,039
26.

919
00:34:16,659 --> 00:34:19,940
And that's because because protons put in less

920
00:34:19,940 --> 00:34:22,900
damage into the surrounding healthy tissue, obviously, any

921
00:34:22,900 --> 00:34:24,440
type of radiation can,

922
00:34:25,025 --> 00:34:27,684
lead to secondary cancers later in life.

923
00:34:28,864 --> 00:34:30,864
If you put less damage in, you there's

924
00:34:30,864 --> 00:34:32,485
less chance of secondary malignancies.

925
00:34:33,344 --> 00:34:34,085
And therefore,

926
00:34:34,465 --> 00:34:36,864
if you're so for example, if you're treated

927
00:34:36,864 --> 00:34:38,485
and you're 70, the

928
00:34:39,090 --> 00:34:41,650
secondary cancers 30 years later on is less

929
00:34:41,650 --> 00:34:43,829
of a concern to you. If you're 10,

930
00:34:44,289 --> 00:34:46,690
secondary cancers when you're 40 is big concern.

931
00:34:46,690 --> 00:34:47,190
So

932
00:34:47,650 --> 00:34:49,829
a lot of the work is on, pediatric

933
00:34:49,890 --> 00:34:52,275
and teenage and young adults, but also we're

934
00:34:52,275 --> 00:34:54,994
treating really difficult to treat tumors that lie

935
00:34:54,994 --> 00:34:56,375
close to critical organs.

936
00:34:56,675 --> 00:34:58,835
So for example, those are the brain and

937
00:34:58,835 --> 00:34:59,335
spine

938
00:34:59,795 --> 00:35:02,355
because the way protons stop is they have

939
00:35:02,355 --> 00:35:03,014
a sharp,

940
00:35:03,714 --> 00:35:04,214
end.

941
00:35:04,670 --> 00:35:07,070
So x rays go straight through the bodies.

942
00:35:07,070 --> 00:35:09,329
Protons actually stop at the tumor.

943
00:35:10,430 --> 00:35:13,550
And therefore, you can treat closer to critical

944
00:35:13,550 --> 00:35:16,050
organs. Has Brexit changed this at all?

945
00:35:16,349 --> 00:35:18,944
Yeah. Brexit's changed it quite a bit. So

946
00:35:19,005 --> 00:35:21,905
one of the things is that across Europe,

947
00:35:21,964 --> 00:35:24,525
I think something like 2,000,000,000 has been sent

948
00:35:24,684 --> 00:35:26,925
spent on proton therapy. So most countries in

949
00:35:26,925 --> 00:35:29,164
Europe have a proton therapy center or a

950
00:35:29,164 --> 00:35:30,829
number of them. And,

951
00:35:31,450 --> 00:35:33,710
one of the projects that I lead is,

952
00:35:34,090 --> 00:35:36,730
a project to integrate research in proton therapy

953
00:35:36,730 --> 00:35:37,869
centers across Europe.

954
00:35:38,890 --> 00:35:41,610
And that's been really useful. We've all worked

955
00:35:41,610 --> 00:35:42,110
together.

956
00:35:43,244 --> 00:35:46,625
And my whole career, I've had European projects

957
00:35:46,924 --> 00:35:50,125
where I've worked with colleagues across Europe. And

958
00:35:50,125 --> 00:35:51,664
by pooling your resources

959
00:35:52,364 --> 00:35:53,984
and by pooling your expertise,

960
00:35:54,844 --> 00:35:57,019
you know, the sum is greater than the

961
00:35:57,019 --> 00:35:57,519
constituent

962
00:35:57,820 --> 00:36:00,300
parts. And it's been one of those things.

963
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:03,420
So something like proton therapy, it's not just

964
00:36:03,420 --> 00:36:03,920
physicists,

965
00:36:04,780 --> 00:36:07,920
it's physicists, it's engineers, it's clinicians, it's biologists,

966
00:36:07,980 --> 00:36:08,299
it's health economists. So you need a big

967
00:36:08,299 --> 00:36:09,119
multidisciplinary team of people, all different sorts of

968
00:36:11,295 --> 00:36:13,474
all different sorts of aspects because it's, you

969
00:36:14,175 --> 00:36:14,734
know, it's a multidisciplinary question. And if we're

970
00:36:14,734 --> 00:36:16,295
going to make sure that we keep the

971
00:36:16,295 --> 00:36:17,474
technology right at the cutting edge,

972
00:36:18,335 --> 00:36:20,574
so, you know, we're delivering the best cures

973
00:36:20,574 --> 00:36:21,234
for patients.

974
00:36:21,694 --> 00:36:23,799
You need all of those edge. So, you

975
00:36:23,799 --> 00:36:26,039
know, we're delivering the best cures for patients.

976
00:36:26,039 --> 00:36:28,380
You need all of those streams of expertise

977
00:36:28,519 --> 00:36:29,579
coming into it.

978
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,599
Also, if you're treating rarer cancers, you get

979
00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:35,019
less, you know, no one country gets

980
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,559
that many cases. So you want to pull

981
00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:40,465
the resources there. And it's it's just a

982
00:36:40,465 --> 00:36:42,885
very good way of working together. But Brexit

983
00:36:43,264 --> 00:36:45,824
makes that impossible? Or It doesn't make it

984
00:36:45,824 --> 00:36:48,005
impossible. But for example, I,

985
00:36:48,625 --> 00:36:50,945
I've led a number of projects in my

986
00:36:50,945 --> 00:36:52,885
time, and I quite like leading projects.

987
00:36:53,699 --> 00:36:55,139
Suppose if I'm going to be a little

988
00:36:55,139 --> 00:36:56,900
bit arrogant, I think I'm quite good at

989
00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:57,639
doing it.

990
00:36:58,420 --> 00:37:01,539
And pulling those projects together and looking and

991
00:37:01,539 --> 00:37:04,039
building networks of people, bringing that together

992
00:37:04,739 --> 00:37:06,739
is something I've done before. We can't do

993
00:37:06,739 --> 00:37:07,219
that.

994
00:37:07,539 --> 00:37:09,994
Well, we can do it, but we can't

995
00:37:09,994 --> 00:37:12,235
be the leaders of the project. So you

996
00:37:12,235 --> 00:37:13,615
can put in all the work.

997
00:37:14,075 --> 00:37:14,575
Mhmm.

998
00:37:14,954 --> 00:37:16,394
And then you hand it over to someone

999
00:37:16,394 --> 00:37:18,715
else. You know, you're always looking at projects

1000
00:37:18,715 --> 00:37:21,119
at the moment. You can be an associate

1001
00:37:21,179 --> 00:37:23,679
partner. There is a route in through,

1002
00:37:25,019 --> 00:37:26,000
Innovate UK.

1003
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:27,820
We can you get some of the money

1004
00:37:27,820 --> 00:37:29,500
back from the government, but you, you then

1005
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:30,940
have to wait to make sure that you're

1006
00:37:30,940 --> 00:37:32,079
on the right list.

1007
00:37:32,619 --> 00:37:34,945
You know, it's it's not the way it

1008
00:37:34,945 --> 00:37:36,804
was done before. And you're always

1009
00:37:37,344 --> 00:37:39,344
you're sort of you're a bit of an

1010
00:37:39,344 --> 00:37:41,744
also run. Like, I'm in a fortunate position

1011
00:37:41,744 --> 00:37:43,425
that people want to work with us, but

1012
00:37:43,425 --> 00:37:45,744
I do know of other people who have

1013
00:37:45,744 --> 00:37:46,244
said,

1014
00:37:46,860 --> 00:37:49,340
actually people are, you know, European partners are

1015
00:37:49,340 --> 00:37:51,099
basically saying, oh, it's too much bother to

1016
00:37:51,099 --> 00:37:53,019
work with the UK. It hasn't happened to

1017
00:37:53,019 --> 00:37:54,720
me, but I have heard of cases.

1018
00:37:55,099 --> 00:37:58,380
So it just makes instead of being able

1019
00:37:58,380 --> 00:37:58,880
to

1020
00:37:59,414 --> 00:38:01,974
effectively look at all of the funding calls

1021
00:38:01,974 --> 00:38:04,775
and, you know, equate Horizon Europe along with

1022
00:38:04,775 --> 00:38:06,454
everything else, and it may be the right

1023
00:38:06,454 --> 00:38:07,434
way of doing things.

1024
00:38:08,215 --> 00:38:10,215
We're now in a position where we're sort

1025
00:38:10,215 --> 00:38:11,355
of second class citizens.

1026
00:38:11,739 --> 00:38:14,300
And, you know, you're hoping someone will invite

1027
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,019
you into your proposal, or you basically say,

1028
00:38:17,019 --> 00:38:18,860
look, I'll do all the work and then

1029
00:38:18,860 --> 00:38:20,640
I'll hand it over to someone else,

1030
00:38:21,099 --> 00:38:21,599
which,

1031
00:38:21,900 --> 00:38:24,780
you know, effectively means it's led from another

1032
00:38:24,780 --> 00:38:27,280
country, all the work isn't seen.

1033
00:38:28,434 --> 00:38:30,755
It's very altruistic, but you can imagine when

1034
00:38:30,755 --> 00:38:32,054
universities look at,

1035
00:38:32,675 --> 00:38:34,675
adding up the pennies and, you know, what

1036
00:38:34,675 --> 00:38:36,835
you've actually done, you'll be they'll say, well,

1037
00:38:36,835 --> 00:38:38,755
you didn't really lead it because it's down

1038
00:38:38,755 --> 00:38:41,210
to somebody else. So, you know, and what

1039
00:38:41,210 --> 00:38:42,889
do I advise other staff to do? Do

1040
00:38:42,889 --> 00:38:44,409
I advise my younger staff that,

1041
00:38:45,769 --> 00:38:46,969
you know, the way to do is to

1042
00:38:46,969 --> 00:38:50,329
lead a a European project? Probably not. They're

1043
00:38:50,329 --> 00:38:52,889
much better going for something else because their

1044
00:38:52,889 --> 00:38:55,125
career progression will also depend on things like

1045
00:38:55,125 --> 00:38:57,204
that. Kind of second class citizen thing, is

1046
00:38:57,204 --> 00:38:58,025
that really

1047
00:38:58,485 --> 00:39:00,005
as a result of the kind of the

1048
00:39:00,005 --> 00:39:02,105
bureaucracy that's been involved around

1049
00:39:02,565 --> 00:39:05,045
Brexit and and what's been happening politically, or

1050
00:39:05,045 --> 00:39:07,545
is it actually just where we are anyway?

1051
00:39:08,510 --> 00:39:09,730
I think pre

1052
00:39:10,109 --> 00:39:10,609
Brexit,

1053
00:39:11,309 --> 00:39:12,530
we were very much

1054
00:39:13,389 --> 00:39:15,469
part of Europe. You know, science has always

1055
00:39:15,469 --> 00:39:16,190
been and I've

1056
00:39:16,829 --> 00:39:19,170
to be honest, personally, I feel more European

1057
00:39:19,230 --> 00:39:20,369
than I feel British.

1058
00:39:21,384 --> 00:39:23,704
And I've apologized for my country more times

1059
00:39:23,704 --> 00:39:25,244
than I've ever done in the past

1060
00:39:25,864 --> 00:39:26,605
3 years.

1061
00:39:28,264 --> 00:39:29,804
It's a change. And

1062
00:39:30,264 --> 00:39:30,764
we're

1063
00:39:31,384 --> 00:39:33,964
I talk to people about European projects

1064
00:39:34,329 --> 00:39:36,569
and you and they basically said, well, are

1065
00:39:36,569 --> 00:39:37,630
you going to sign?

1066
00:39:37,929 --> 00:39:39,690
You know, is the UK government going to

1067
00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:42,190
sign? And the answer is, I don't know.

1068
00:39:43,210 --> 00:39:44,969
But you're getting to the point now of

1069
00:39:44,969 --> 00:39:46,809
saying, I think you ought to make the

1070
00:39:46,809 --> 00:39:48,349
assumption that they won't

1071
00:39:49,385 --> 00:39:49,885
because,

1072
00:39:50,425 --> 00:39:52,664
you know, we haven't heard anything. We were

1073
00:39:52,664 --> 00:39:53,724
promised they would.

1074
00:39:55,464 --> 00:39:57,085
And everything is

1075
00:39:57,625 --> 00:39:59,324
so unsure at the moment.

1076
00:39:59,945 --> 00:40:02,505
You know, it's probably better if you assume

1077
00:40:02,505 --> 00:40:03,885
that they we won't

1078
00:40:04,289 --> 00:40:06,130
rather than assuming that we will, if we

1079
00:40:06,130 --> 00:40:08,469
will, if we do, it would be fantastic.

1080
00:40:08,690 --> 00:40:10,230
But I think it's that uncertainty.

1081
00:40:11,250 --> 00:40:11,750
And

1082
00:40:12,369 --> 00:40:14,289
I am sure we are further down the

1083
00:40:14,289 --> 00:40:14,789
list.

1084
00:40:15,410 --> 00:40:17,684
We're being used a bit as if the

1085
00:40:17,684 --> 00:40:19,684
horizon Europe is being used a little bit

1086
00:40:19,684 --> 00:40:20,184
politically.

1087
00:40:21,765 --> 00:40:24,105
And it's unfortunate, but, you know,

1088
00:40:24,965 --> 00:40:27,445
you look at COVID and did all the

1089
00:40:27,445 --> 00:40:31,045
breakthroughs in COVID come from just British funded

1090
00:40:31,045 --> 00:40:33,869
science, or was this collaboration across Europe and

1091
00:40:33,869 --> 00:40:35,409
things like that? Nope.

1092
00:40:36,269 --> 00:40:38,829
I think people have forgotten that. I think

1093
00:40:38,829 --> 00:40:41,069
a lot of the breakthroughs that have come

1094
00:40:41,069 --> 00:40:43,489
forward in the past 40 years

1095
00:40:45,215 --> 00:40:47,054
are helped by being part of Europe. You

1096
00:40:47,054 --> 00:40:49,635
know, we've worked together with our European colleagues.

1097
00:40:49,775 --> 00:40:51,474
British science is very strong.

1098
00:40:58,109 --> 00:41:01,069
Before Brexit, the UK's arrangement was that when

1099
00:41:01,069 --> 00:41:04,269
they put money into Horizon, they actually ended

1100
00:41:04,269 --> 00:41:07,630
up getting more back. With Brexit wiping out

1101
00:41:07,630 --> 00:41:10,244
that positive position for the UK, I asked

1102
00:41:10,405 --> 00:41:12,885
professor Graham Reid what the pros and cons

1103
00:41:12,885 --> 00:41:16,005
are for the two routes facing the government

1104
00:41:16,005 --> 00:41:18,985
now. If you do it through the EU,

1105
00:41:20,485 --> 00:41:20,985
then

1106
00:41:21,365 --> 00:41:22,345
you're building

1107
00:41:22,885 --> 00:41:23,385
on

1108
00:41:23,750 --> 00:41:24,650
40 years

1109
00:41:25,269 --> 00:41:26,409
of collaborations

1110
00:41:26,710 --> 00:41:27,530
and partnerships.

1111
00:41:29,429 --> 00:41:31,609
So you've got a 40 year investment

1112
00:41:31,909 --> 00:41:34,389
in these partnerships, and and and doing it

1113
00:41:34,389 --> 00:41:36,710
through Europe means that you you take that

1114
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:39,484
40 year history and you add another layer.

1115
00:41:41,545 --> 00:41:43,724
The other advantage of doing it through Europe

1116
00:41:43,864 --> 00:41:45,884
is that the EU

1117
00:41:46,424 --> 00:41:48,525
the I mean, the what what is horizon?

1118
00:41:48,904 --> 00:41:50,364
Horizon is a protocol,

1119
00:41:52,180 --> 00:41:53,400
which means that

1120
00:41:54,099 --> 00:41:56,199
if you want to set up a project,

1121
00:41:57,140 --> 00:42:00,500
lots of the deal is already done. You

1122
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:01,960
don't start from scratch.

1123
00:42:02,739 --> 00:42:05,059
You actually lift a rule book off the

1124
00:42:05,059 --> 00:42:05,559
shelf

1125
00:42:05,954 --> 00:42:08,135
that has got lots of the deal done,

1126
00:42:08,195 --> 00:42:11,414
and then you customize it around the interest

1127
00:42:11,474 --> 00:42:14,295
of your individual project and individual partners.

1128
00:42:14,914 --> 00:42:15,974
So it's relatively

1129
00:42:16,275 --> 00:42:16,775
easy

1130
00:42:17,555 --> 00:42:18,855
to form an international

1131
00:42:19,155 --> 00:42:19,655
collaboration.

1132
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,639
You've got lots of networks of people that

1133
00:42:24,639 --> 00:42:25,859
have been working together,

1134
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:28,980
and,

1135
00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:31,519
so off you go. And I think that

1136
00:42:31,519 --> 00:42:32,739
that's, you know,

1137
00:42:33,119 --> 00:42:34,500
there are some very elegant

1138
00:42:36,105 --> 00:42:38,765
funding instruments within the horizon portfolio.

1139
00:42:39,224 --> 00:42:41,465
There are other funding instruments that don't work

1140
00:42:41,465 --> 00:42:42,925
terribly well for the UK.

1141
00:42:44,585 --> 00:42:46,824
And that takes us to the disadvantage because

1142
00:42:46,824 --> 00:42:47,405
the disadvantage

1143
00:42:47,704 --> 00:42:49,900
is that this is this is a an

1144
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:52,239
arrangement that is a a compromise

1145
00:42:52,619 --> 00:42:53,920
between 27

1146
00:42:54,300 --> 00:42:55,440
EU member states.

1147
00:42:57,099 --> 00:42:58,480
And it's it's

1148
00:42:58,780 --> 00:42:59,280
designed

1149
00:42:59,659 --> 00:43:01,920
around the interests of the EU.

1150
00:43:03,574 --> 00:43:05,594
So if you look at a UK alternative,

1151
00:43:07,014 --> 00:43:09,514
then the advantage is that we can optimize

1152
00:43:09,654 --> 00:43:11,434
it around UK interests,

1153
00:43:12,454 --> 00:43:13,755
rather than have compromises

1154
00:43:14,054 --> 00:43:15,034
at every time.

1155
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:18,139
We can make it global,

1156
00:43:18,679 --> 00:43:22,119
so it's it's, it's geographic emphasis and all

1157
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:24,219
the sort of partnerships that we build

1158
00:43:24,679 --> 00:43:26,679
can be you you start with a map

1159
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:27,500
of the world

1160
00:43:29,094 --> 00:43:31,914
rather than having a sort of EU plus

1161
00:43:32,215 --> 00:43:34,855
people from other places. The the the starting

1162
00:43:34,855 --> 00:43:36,155
point is is different.

1163
00:43:39,094 --> 00:43:42,329
And that optimizing around UK interests is a

1164
00:43:42,329 --> 00:43:44,650
big deal because we we really can make

1165
00:43:44,650 --> 00:43:46,430
this work for the UK.

1166
00:43:47,289 --> 00:43:47,789
However,

1167
00:43:50,170 --> 00:43:50,650
it's

1168
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:52,750
it means starting from scratch.

1169
00:43:53,289 --> 00:43:54,590
We don't have anything.

1170
00:43:56,234 --> 00:43:59,275
So and starting from scratch with something of

1171
00:43:59,275 --> 00:44:01,835
this scale is not trivial. I mean, this

1172
00:44:01,835 --> 00:44:04,094
is a big thing to start from scratch.

1173
00:44:04,714 --> 00:44:06,734
So it's going to require

1174
00:44:07,594 --> 00:44:08,974
a period of transition

1175
00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:11,199
that will cost money.

1176
00:44:11,579 --> 00:44:14,159
You know, you cannot switch out of horizon

1177
00:44:14,699 --> 00:44:15,679
into a standalone

1178
00:44:15,980 --> 00:44:16,480
scheme

1179
00:44:17,099 --> 00:44:18,719
just with a click of fingers.

1180
00:44:19,179 --> 00:44:21,099
This is going to be an expensive and

1181
00:44:21,099 --> 00:44:22,480
time consuming thing,

1182
00:44:22,954 --> 00:44:25,054
and that is a significant disadvantage

1183
00:44:26,074 --> 00:44:28,635
balanced against the advantage of having something that

1184
00:44:28,635 --> 00:44:31,614
would be optimized around the the UK interest.

1185
00:44:31,914 --> 00:44:33,934
That idea of a global superpower

1186
00:44:34,394 --> 00:44:37,359
would surely include the European Union, And the

1187
00:44:37,359 --> 00:44:40,659
hope would be that collaborations between UK scientists

1188
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:42,019
and EU scientists

1189
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:43,219
would continue

1190
00:44:43,679 --> 00:44:46,260
in a productive way the way they have

1191
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,219
until Brexit.

1192
00:44:47,679 --> 00:44:50,295
I asked professor Rachel Armstrong how now she's

1193
00:44:50,295 --> 00:44:51,994
based in the EU in Belgium,

1194
00:44:52,375 --> 00:44:53,194
she views

1195
00:44:53,655 --> 00:44:54,795
her UK colleagues.

1196
00:44:55,414 --> 00:44:58,934
I'm committed to using UK researchers, but it

1197
00:44:58,934 --> 00:45:00,315
puts you in a weak position

1198
00:45:00,855 --> 00:45:01,755
as a coordinator

1199
00:45:02,214 --> 00:45:04,234
because you're having to

1200
00:45:07,150 --> 00:45:09,550
shore up your consortium so that if the

1201
00:45:09,550 --> 00:45:11,489
UK government does something stupid

1202
00:45:12,030 --> 00:45:12,530
like

1203
00:45:14,110 --> 00:45:15,570
invokes article 16,

1204
00:45:17,630 --> 00:45:19,730
then you're still able to complete your project.

1205
00:45:20,275 --> 00:45:22,295
So that is that is a concern.

1206
00:45:22,675 --> 00:45:23,974
The other thing that,

1207
00:45:24,755 --> 00:45:27,175
you know, I've been in discussion with the,

1208
00:45:28,594 --> 00:45:29,574
let's say the

1209
00:45:29,875 --> 00:45:30,375
coordination

1210
00:45:30,675 --> 00:45:31,175
administration,

1211
00:45:32,434 --> 00:45:35,219
in the European partners and in my own

1212
00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:35,880
institution,

1213
00:45:36,659 --> 00:45:37,639
is the irritation

1214
00:45:38,739 --> 00:45:39,639
that is felt

1215
00:45:40,099 --> 00:45:42,039
from the games that are being played

1216
00:45:42,420 --> 00:45:44,739
that, you know, deadlines are being extended. So

1217
00:45:44,739 --> 00:45:46,599
for example with the ERC

1218
00:45:47,380 --> 00:45:47,880
application

1219
00:45:48,675 --> 00:45:49,414
there were

1220
00:45:49,715 --> 00:45:52,855
weeks weeks of delay before people were notified

1221
00:45:52,994 --> 00:45:54,535
of of of their results,

1222
00:45:55,315 --> 00:45:56,454
because of the,

1223
00:45:57,074 --> 00:45:59,574
politics that were that were, you know,

1224
00:46:00,275 --> 00:46:01,735
you know, a foot,

1225
00:46:02,070 --> 00:46:03,910
between the UK and the and and and

1226
00:46:03,910 --> 00:46:04,650
the EU.

1227
00:46:04,950 --> 00:46:06,329
Excuse my brief interruption.

1228
00:46:06,789 --> 00:46:09,110
But in June of this year, the European

1229
00:46:09,110 --> 00:46:11,050
Research Council, the ERC,

1230
00:46:11,670 --> 00:46:13,450
confirmed that a 143

1231
00:46:15,030 --> 00:46:16,410
UK based researchers

1232
00:46:16,994 --> 00:46:19,474
would lose their grumps from the ERC unless

1233
00:46:19,474 --> 00:46:20,295
they relocated

1234
00:46:20,994 --> 00:46:21,734
to a country

1235
00:46:22,034 --> 00:46:23,414
in the European Union.

1236
00:46:23,954 --> 00:46:25,255
This is very destabilizing

1237
00:46:25,714 --> 00:46:26,614
for university

1238
00:46:26,994 --> 00:46:27,494
relationships,

1239
00:46:28,034 --> 00:46:29,574
and it really makes,

1240
00:46:30,194 --> 00:46:30,694
you

1241
00:46:31,190 --> 00:46:32,809
not want to involve,

1242
00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:37,369
British partners because unlike, let's say, Norwegian partners

1243
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:39,190
which have a stable, you know, so they

1244
00:46:39,190 --> 00:46:40,090
have an associated

1245
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:43,364
relationship with the program, no problem with that.

1246
00:46:43,445 --> 00:46:45,684
You know that they're associated. You know that

1247
00:46:45,684 --> 00:46:47,704
they know their rules for engagement.

1248
00:46:48,085 --> 00:46:49,144
But with the UK,

1249
00:46:49,684 --> 00:46:52,585
there's still a huge amount of uncertainty and

1250
00:46:52,644 --> 00:46:54,965
quite frankly anything could happen. So if I

1251
00:46:54,965 --> 00:46:57,525
didn't come from the UK and if I

1252
00:46:57,525 --> 00:46:58,409
didn't have

1253
00:46:58,969 --> 00:47:02,589
established great relationships with my, British colleagues,

1254
00:47:03,049 --> 00:47:05,210
then I I I I'll be honest with

1255
00:47:05,210 --> 00:47:06,670
you. I would be reluctant

1256
00:47:07,049 --> 00:47:08,670
to think about British partners

1257
00:47:09,130 --> 00:47:11,849
even if they were the best in the

1258
00:47:11,849 --> 00:47:13,389
world. I'll be thinking

1259
00:47:13,704 --> 00:47:15,804
second or third best will be good enough

1260
00:47:15,864 --> 00:47:17,704
because I know that I can manage this

1261
00:47:17,704 --> 00:47:19,304
project. I know that I can get to

1262
00:47:19,304 --> 00:47:20,844
the end of it without

1263
00:47:21,224 --> 00:47:22,924
some great administrative

1264
00:47:23,224 --> 00:47:23,724
disaster.

1265
00:47:24,344 --> 00:47:27,385
The uncertainty of that relationship between the UK

1266
00:47:27,385 --> 00:47:30,000
and the EU in terms of Horizon Europe

1267
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,739
and science research more widely is clearly

1268
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:35,539
a source of great concern for the scientists.

1269
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,440
And it will obviously affect their research. For

1270
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,260
Karen Kirby's work and for many other scientists,

1271
00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:43,300
that research

1272
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:45,594
is key for people's lives.

1273
00:47:45,894 --> 00:47:48,074
How will that impact patients today?

1274
00:47:48,614 --> 00:47:49,994
Probably not at all.

1275
00:47:50,295 --> 00:47:53,014
How will that impact patients in 5 years

1276
00:47:53,014 --> 00:47:54,934
time? You know, we may not have done

1277
00:47:54,934 --> 00:47:56,775
some of the clinical trials that we would

1278
00:47:56,775 --> 00:47:57,994
do otherwise.

1279
00:47:58,299 --> 00:48:00,299
We may not have done some of the

1280
00:48:00,299 --> 00:48:00,799
studies

1281
00:48:01,260 --> 00:48:04,299
of how things like proton interact with drug

1282
00:48:04,299 --> 00:48:04,799
combinations.

1283
00:48:05,339 --> 00:48:07,519
There will be discoveries that aren't made.

1284
00:48:09,179 --> 00:48:10,480
And, you know, ultimately,

1285
00:48:11,675 --> 00:48:12,894
if we stop now,

1286
00:48:13,275 --> 00:48:14,894
and no research is done,

1287
00:48:15,434 --> 00:48:15,934
then,

1288
00:48:17,034 --> 00:48:18,815
across the board, it's, it's,

1289
00:48:19,594 --> 00:48:21,675
there will be there will be things that

1290
00:48:21,675 --> 00:48:23,434
we would have discovered that we won't have

1291
00:48:23,434 --> 00:48:23,934
discovered.

1292
00:48:25,710 --> 00:48:28,510
And so it, you know, it's not it's

1293
00:48:28,510 --> 00:48:29,250
not tomorrow.

1294
00:48:30,429 --> 00:48:32,110
But for example, some of the work that

1295
00:48:32,110 --> 00:48:33,469
we're doing at the moment is on a

1296
00:48:33,469 --> 00:48:34,210
new modality

1297
00:48:34,909 --> 00:48:37,949
modality where we actually, the NHS Center for

1298
00:48:37,949 --> 00:48:40,804
Protons is brilliant, and we deliver the dose

1299
00:48:40,804 --> 00:48:43,545
at ultra high dose rates. That's in less

1300
00:48:43,764 --> 00:48:44,264
than,

1301
00:48:45,284 --> 00:48:46,344
less than a second.

1302
00:48:47,844 --> 00:48:49,924
What that appears to do, although we've still

1303
00:48:49,924 --> 00:48:51,125
got quite a lot of work to do

1304
00:48:51,125 --> 00:48:53,444
on it, is to put even less damage

1305
00:48:53,444 --> 00:48:54,664
into the healthy tissue

1306
00:48:55,269 --> 00:48:56,650
and still kill the tumor.

1307
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:59,269
Now that means that you can start to

1308
00:48:59,269 --> 00:49:01,750
be it's a it's this sort of paradigm

1309
00:49:01,750 --> 00:49:03,210
change that you could move into

1310
00:49:03,590 --> 00:49:04,090
where

1311
00:49:04,390 --> 00:49:04,890
effectively

1312
00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:07,585
you could treat even more tumors because there

1313
00:49:07,585 --> 00:49:09,684
are still tumors that you can't treat with

1314
00:49:09,905 --> 00:49:12,304
protons, just because although you could put enough

1315
00:49:12,304 --> 00:49:14,065
dose into the tumor, it's what would happen

1316
00:49:14,065 --> 00:49:16,565
to the healthy tissue that tumor might recur.

1317
00:49:17,505 --> 00:49:20,065
But, an area like that, if it's not

1318
00:49:20,065 --> 00:49:22,385
funded, because we've got to understand it's not

1319
00:49:22,385 --> 00:49:24,940
safe to use with patients at the moment

1320
00:49:24,940 --> 00:49:26,800
because we don't know enough about it.

1321
00:49:27,660 --> 00:49:28,160
There

1322
00:49:28,700 --> 00:49:28,940
I should

1323
00:49:29,980 --> 00:49:30,480
yeah.

1324
00:49:30,940 --> 00:49:32,700
There have been some clinical trials where it's

1325
00:49:32,700 --> 00:49:33,760
been used palliatively

1326
00:49:34,220 --> 00:49:35,280
very, very carefully.

1327
00:49:36,434 --> 00:49:39,315
In terms of on in extremities, it was

1328
00:49:39,315 --> 00:49:40,114
used in,

1329
00:49:40,515 --> 00:49:42,855
arms and legs for painful bone metastases

1330
00:49:43,715 --> 00:49:45,795
to reduce the pain. But if you were

1331
00:49:45,795 --> 00:49:46,855
going to use it,

1332
00:49:47,875 --> 00:49:48,375
radically,

1333
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:50,550
you want to know a bit more about

1334
00:49:50,550 --> 00:49:51,590
it. We need to do a bit more

1335
00:49:51,590 --> 00:49:52,090
research.

1336
00:49:52,710 --> 00:49:54,710
If there was none of the, at the

1337
00:49:54,710 --> 00:49:58,010
moment where we're getting some funding for that.

1338
00:49:58,150 --> 00:50:00,490
And, but if that funding stopped,

1339
00:50:02,315 --> 00:50:04,394
you can't do research without some money. You've

1340
00:50:04,394 --> 00:50:06,175
got no people, no infrastructure.

1341
00:50:07,275 --> 00:50:09,454
Running a research room costs money,

1342
00:50:11,275 --> 00:50:13,595
especially at the moment, cost of electricity running

1343
00:50:13,595 --> 00:50:15,295
the cycle transfer on cheap.

1344
00:50:16,989 --> 00:50:17,489
So

1345
00:50:17,869 --> 00:50:19,489
it's things like that. So it's

1346
00:50:20,029 --> 00:50:22,269
all the infrastructure, and it goes across the

1347
00:50:22,269 --> 00:50:22,769
board.

1348
00:50:23,389 --> 00:50:25,010
There is so much research

1349
00:50:25,869 --> 00:50:26,769
going on.

1350
00:50:29,005 --> 00:50:31,484
And it's it's not just the money, it's

1351
00:50:31,484 --> 00:50:33,484
the contacts. You know, if we don't have

1352
00:50:33,484 --> 00:50:34,704
our colleagues in Europe,

1353
00:50:35,164 --> 00:50:37,164
we don't link in with them, we're then

1354
00:50:37,405 --> 00:50:39,484
we haven't got those synergies that come from

1355
00:50:39,484 --> 00:50:42,364
working with people who've got similar equipment to

1356
00:50:42,364 --> 00:50:42,864
us.

1357
00:50:44,190 --> 00:50:44,589
But,

1358
00:50:45,869 --> 00:50:46,429
you know, we

1359
00:50:47,869 --> 00:50:50,829
by working together, you effectively reduce the cost

1360
00:50:50,829 --> 00:50:51,889
to get more benefits.

1361
00:50:52,670 --> 00:50:55,489
In an ideal world, what would happen now?

1362
00:50:55,869 --> 00:50:58,130
Oh, the government would sign the agreement.

1363
00:50:58,485 --> 00:51:00,485
Like, ideal world, if I can have whatever

1364
00:51:00,485 --> 00:51:03,204
I want, the government we'd we'd reverse that

1365
00:51:03,204 --> 00:51:06,005
result on Brexit. But I I suppose that's

1366
00:51:06,005 --> 00:51:08,184
naive, and that that's not going to happen.

1367
00:51:08,565 --> 00:51:10,105
But in an ideal world,

1368
00:51:10,805 --> 00:51:13,660
what could help is the government sign in

1369
00:51:13,660 --> 00:51:16,619
the agreement so that the UK enters Horizon

1370
00:51:16,619 --> 00:51:18,780
Europe in the same way as any other

1371
00:51:18,780 --> 00:51:19,760
European partner.

1372
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:23,360
It means, you know, that would and that's

1373
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:25,599
that's what we believed would happen.

1374
00:51:26,484 --> 00:51:27,704
That's what we were told.

1375
00:51:28,085 --> 00:51:29,864
So, you know, that would be

1376
00:51:31,445 --> 00:51:33,224
that would help. The uncertainty

1377
00:51:33,525 --> 00:51:36,664
about how this relationship might work post Brexit,

1378
00:51:37,045 --> 00:51:37,784
the uncertainty

1379
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:39,720
about what the UK's

1380
00:51:40,260 --> 00:51:43,220
new funding model looks like is, as I

1381
00:51:43,220 --> 00:51:45,460
say, at the root of quite a lot

1382
00:51:45,460 --> 00:51:46,599
of this concern

1383
00:51:47,220 --> 00:51:49,720
amongst the UK science research community.

1384
00:51:50,099 --> 00:51:52,119
I put that to professor Graham Reid.

1385
00:51:52,864 --> 00:51:53,844
I absolutely

1386
00:51:54,144 --> 00:51:55,684
recognize the apprehension

1387
00:51:56,304 --> 00:51:57,764
because what you're comparing

1388
00:51:58,464 --> 00:52:02,484
is a well understood and familiar European program

1389
00:52:03,264 --> 00:52:04,324
with an unknown

1390
00:52:04,704 --> 00:52:05,684
UK alternative.

1391
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:08,680
So if you're if you're comparing the familiar

1392
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,519
with the unknown, in that case, you know,

1393
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:13,019
the natural human reaction is to be apprehensive

1394
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,019
and and and be and skeptical.

1395
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:17,240
So that doesn't surprise me at all, I

1396
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:18,619
think that that's an entirely

1397
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:19,820
rational,

1398
00:52:20,599 --> 00:52:21,099
response.

1399
00:52:23,215 --> 00:52:25,234
I think I would take issue

1400
00:52:25,614 --> 00:52:28,175
with claims that the government doesn't do what

1401
00:52:28,175 --> 00:52:29,474
it says it will do

1402
00:52:30,014 --> 00:52:30,815
in science.

1403
00:52:33,215 --> 00:52:33,715
The

1404
00:52:35,210 --> 00:52:36,029
the government

1405
00:52:36,650 --> 00:52:38,489
first of all, we have a we've got

1406
00:52:38,489 --> 00:52:40,349
a pretty high level of transparency

1407
00:52:41,609 --> 00:52:43,789
in the way that the finances

1408
00:52:44,409 --> 00:52:44,909
are

1409
00:52:45,449 --> 00:52:47,389
announced at top level.

1410
00:52:48,494 --> 00:52:51,394
So the size of the science budget

1411
00:52:52,335 --> 00:52:53,155
and its,

1412
00:52:54,335 --> 00:52:56,174
the way in which the the the pace

1413
00:52:56,174 --> 00:52:57,855
at which the money is going to be

1414
00:52:57,855 --> 00:52:58,355
released,

1415
00:53:00,110 --> 00:53:01,250
and its distribution

1416
00:53:01,550 --> 00:53:03,170
among funding agencies

1417
00:53:04,190 --> 00:53:06,210
is all in the public domain.

1418
00:53:07,630 --> 00:53:08,929
It's all scrutinized

1419
00:53:09,309 --> 00:53:10,130
by parliament.

1420
00:53:11,309 --> 00:53:12,369
It's all scrutinized

1421
00:53:12,670 --> 00:53:13,570
by the media.

1422
00:53:16,315 --> 00:53:18,635
And, actually, you know, some people complain that

1423
00:53:18,635 --> 00:53:19,934
there's too much documentation

1424
00:53:20,235 --> 00:53:20,894
and scrutiny.

1425
00:53:21,994 --> 00:53:23,355
So I'd say that,

1426
00:53:24,074 --> 00:53:24,574
that

1427
00:53:25,355 --> 00:53:28,015
the the the the track record

1428
00:53:29,010 --> 00:53:31,670
of spending the money that is announced

1429
00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:34,150
is actually pretty good.

1430
00:53:36,130 --> 00:53:37,570
I mean, the you know, there there's, you

1431
00:53:37,570 --> 00:53:39,809
know, there's a bit of fast footwork on

1432
00:53:39,809 --> 00:53:42,449
sort of reannouncing things three times and all

1433
00:53:42,449 --> 00:53:44,534
that sort of thing. But, actually, if you

1434
00:53:44,534 --> 00:53:47,014
look at the formal documents rather than the

1435
00:53:47,014 --> 00:53:49,835
spin, I think the track record's pretty good.

1436
00:53:50,295 --> 00:53:51,594
What worries me

1437
00:53:52,454 --> 00:53:54,155
and worries me quite a lot

1438
00:53:55,094 --> 00:53:55,835
is that

1439
00:53:56,295 --> 00:53:57,034
if we

1440
00:53:57,690 --> 00:53:58,190
continue

1441
00:53:59,210 --> 00:54:00,829
to sit in this,

1442
00:54:02,170 --> 00:54:05,449
halfway house where we're not associating with Horizon

1443
00:54:05,449 --> 00:54:07,849
Europe and we're not going ahead with plan

1444
00:54:07,849 --> 00:54:08,349
b,

1445
00:54:08,889 --> 00:54:11,150
then we have 1,000,000,000 of pounds

1446
00:54:11,825 --> 00:54:12,805
that has been allocated

1447
00:54:13,105 --> 00:54:15,265
to science, but is not being spent on

1448
00:54:15,265 --> 00:54:15,765
science.

1449
00:54:16,704 --> 00:54:17,204
And

1450
00:54:17,825 --> 00:54:19,125
no reasonable

1451
00:54:19,664 --> 00:54:20,724
finance ministry

1452
00:54:21,265 --> 00:54:24,545
will allow huge amounts of public money to

1453
00:54:24,545 --> 00:54:26,485
just sit there being unused.

1454
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:28,760
And I do worry

1455
00:54:29,140 --> 00:54:30,760
that there will come a point,

1456
00:54:31,699 --> 00:54:33,780
possibly as soon as next March at the

1457
00:54:33,780 --> 00:54:36,199
end of the financial year, when the treasury

1458
00:54:36,260 --> 00:54:37,780
will say, well hang on a minute, we

1459
00:54:37,780 --> 00:54:40,599
we gave you 1,000,000,000 of pounds in 2021,

1460
00:54:41,605 --> 00:54:44,244
You're still faffing about deciding whether you want

1461
00:54:44,244 --> 00:54:45,925
to be in Europe or not. We're just

1462
00:54:45,925 --> 00:54:47,525
gonna have the money back and we'll spend

1463
00:54:47,525 --> 00:54:49,364
it on something to do with the cost

1464
00:54:49,364 --> 00:54:50,265
of living crisis.

1465
00:54:50,724 --> 00:54:53,525
In researching this podcast, I read about and

1466
00:54:53,525 --> 00:54:54,824
heard from scientists

1467
00:54:55,125 --> 00:54:57,849
from EU countries who'd come to the UK

1468
00:54:57,849 --> 00:54:58,909
before Brexit,

1469
00:54:59,610 --> 00:55:02,250
many years before it was even considered a

1470
00:55:02,250 --> 00:55:02,750
possibility,

1471
00:55:03,130 --> 00:55:05,309
who had felt compelled to leave

1472
00:55:05,769 --> 00:55:06,590
as a result

1473
00:55:07,050 --> 00:55:07,949
of that referendum.

1474
00:55:08,804 --> 00:55:11,444
It's certainly true that the opinion of the

1475
00:55:11,444 --> 00:55:13,464
scientists and the academic community

1476
00:55:13,925 --> 00:55:15,944
is not the only argument

1477
00:55:16,484 --> 00:55:17,944
in this story,

1478
00:55:18,644 --> 00:55:20,025
but it seems a shame

1479
00:55:20,405 --> 00:55:21,559
to say the least

1480
00:55:21,860 --> 00:55:22,760
that a nearly

1481
00:55:23,140 --> 00:55:24,119
if not entirely

1482
00:55:24,579 --> 00:55:25,079
unanimous

1483
00:55:25,460 --> 00:55:27,719
voice calling for associate status

1484
00:55:28,019 --> 00:55:28,760
in horizon

1485
00:55:29,219 --> 00:55:30,200
could be ignored

1486
00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:33,239
for the sake of political wranglings

1487
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:34,840
over trade agreements

1488
00:55:35,140 --> 00:55:37,525
and the like. I imagine that's why it's

1489
00:55:37,525 --> 00:55:39,785
such a key bargaining tip though.

1490
00:55:40,164 --> 00:55:41,465
I'm glad I'm not a politician

1491
00:55:41,765 --> 00:55:43,605
and I'm really glad that I'm not a

1492
00:55:43,605 --> 00:55:44,105
politician

1493
00:55:44,405 --> 00:55:47,465
who's got themselves into this particular situation.

1494
00:55:48,619 --> 00:55:50,460
It is my hope along with the vast

1495
00:55:50,460 --> 00:55:50,960
majority

1496
00:55:51,420 --> 00:55:52,880
of the academic community

1497
00:55:53,500 --> 00:55:54,480
that the political

1498
00:55:54,860 --> 00:55:56,400
arguments and discussions

1499
00:55:56,940 --> 00:55:57,760
will end

1500
00:55:58,140 --> 00:56:00,640
with the UK having associate membership

1501
00:56:01,099 --> 00:56:02,320
of the Horizon

1502
00:56:02,860 --> 00:56:04,079
Europe Fund.

1503
00:56:05,015 --> 00:56:07,835
Thank you very much to professors Karen Kirby,

1504
00:56:08,295 --> 00:56:10,614
Rachel Armstrong, and Graham Reed for talking to

1505
00:56:10,614 --> 00:56:12,775
me for this episode of the Physics World

1506
00:56:12,775 --> 00:56:15,175
Stories podcast, and we'll be back next month

1507
00:56:15,175 --> 00:56:16,775
when I'm hoping we'll have a bit more

1508
00:56:16,775 --> 00:56:17,914
fun exploring

1509
00:56:18,295 --> 00:56:19,755
something to do with physics

1510
00:56:20,319 --> 00:56:21,059
and sport.

1511
00:56:21,359 --> 00:56:23,219
And thank you very much for listening.

1512
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:29,619
Physics world.