Episode 282

<v Speaker 1>Sword and Scale contains adult themes and violence, and is
<v Speaker 1>not intended for all audiences. Listener discretion is advice said,
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to the defense of how as she said,
<v Speaker 1>it's all over now and it's done.
<v Speaker 2>Does a new show come in? So stick around after
<v Speaker 2>the music and you'll find out more. This is season two,
<v Speaker 2>episode two hundred and eighty two of Sword and Scale.
<v Speaker 2>So that reveals that the worst monsters.
<v Speaker 3>Are real.
<v Speaker 2>Well, I lie not about the show that's coming up.
<v Speaker 2>It is coming up, but about telling you about the
<v Speaker 2>show that's coming up. Because I'm not going to tell
<v Speaker 2>you anything. I'm going to keep it a secret this time.
<v Speaker 2>You're not going to find out a damn thing until
<v Speaker 2>it comes out. March third. In a family where chaos rains,
<v Speaker 2>it's easy to lose sight of the cracks forming beneath
<v Speaker 2>the surface. Born into a world of addiction, mental illness,
<v Speaker 2>and unspeakable secrets, one can grow so accustomed to the
<v Speaker 2>madness that it becomes invisible. Each day brings a new crisis,
<v Speaker 2>new fire to put out, and amidst the smoke and shadows,
<v Speaker 2>it's impossible to notice the creeping darkness closing in the
<v Speaker 2>familiar feels like survival until it's not. Like the proverbial
<v Speaker 2>frog sitting in a pot of water, the rising heat
<v Speaker 2>goes unnoticed. There's too much to manage, calming the parents'
<v Speaker 2>paranoid delusions, steering a sibling away from another destructive path,
<v Speaker 2>trying to hold it all together. The storms are so
<v Speaker 2>familiar that they barely register anymore, and while tending to
<v Speaker 2>each fresh disaster, something far more dangerous is below. It's
<v Speaker 2>a slow, insidious bubbling, and before there's any time to escape,
<v Speaker 2>the water has reached a dangerous boil. In two thousand
<v Speaker 2>and seven, twenty one year old Lauren Kukla found herself
<v Speaker 2>shouldering the full responsibility of her family's physical and emotional
<v Speaker 2>well being. Though she had small children of her own,
<v Speaker 2>their needs aren't what I'm talking about here. Lauren was
<v Speaker 2>not only caring for her immediate household, but also managing
<v Speaker 2>the endless conflicts between her late schizophrenic mother and her
<v Speaker 2>four older siblings, none of whom could seem to get
<v Speaker 2>their lives together for some reason. Conveniently, they all lived
<v Speaker 2>in the same area near McComb, Michigan, and Lauren was
<v Speaker 2>stuck carrying a burden far beyond her years. Though her
<v Speaker 2>siblings houses were chaotic, messy, and filled with conflict, Lauren's
<v Speaker 2>house was different. Though she was young, she and her
<v Speaker 2>family lived a white picket fence kind of life. Compared
<v Speaker 2>to her two older sisters and two older brothers. Her
<v Speaker 2>sister Elizabeth or Lizzie was on drugs and had already
<v Speaker 2>lost custody of her children, and her sister, thirty year
<v Speaker 2>old Jennifer or Jenny, the oldest of all the siblings,
<v Speaker 2>was walking that same tightrope. How Lauren turned out to
<v Speaker 2>be a normal, functioning member of society after growing up
<v Speaker 2>in a household like this is really a mystery. On Saturday,
<v Speaker 2>February third, two thousand and seven, all while trying to
<v Speaker 2>juggle her career and her young children's needs, Lauren got
<v Speaker 2>a call from Jenny. As usual, her oldest sister was
<v Speaker 2>having a meltdown and needed help.
<v Speaker 4>He had told me that she believed that Elizabeth Koukla
<v Speaker 4>or Lowry, I'm sorry, her sister and Lisa Fabric that
<v Speaker 4>they were growing up as that may be, had led
<v Speaker 4>her to believe that they were.
<v Speaker 5>Going to have her kids taken away. They were going
<v Speaker 5>to call the CPS.
<v Speaker 1>As far as I know, at that time that was
<v Speaker 1>a truthful statement, was he denied it When I went
<v Speaker 1>to her up to her place at Portant later at
<v Speaker 1>that time, I could see her saying something like that
<v Speaker 1>because she said it to me before twenty times in
<v Speaker 1>the past couple of years. She said she hates Jack,
<v Speaker 1>she wished that she would just clean up her ant and.
<v Speaker 6>Blah blah blah whatever.
<v Speaker 1>Because Lizzie got her kids taken away, she thought that
<v Speaker 1>she was fighting for them, but she wasn't fighting.
<v Speaker 5>For them because she was always doing crack and shit
<v Speaker 5>like that, so she.
<v Speaker 1>Wasn't really working at it, but she wanted anybody to
<v Speaker 1>believe that she couldn't, so now she wants I could
<v Speaker 1>see her wanning.
<v Speaker 5>Some kind of revenge or wanting Jenny to feel the
<v Speaker 5>same pain as her.
<v Speaker 2>Lizzie wasn't threatening to report Jenny to CPS because she
<v Speaker 2>was genuinely concerned about her nieces. She just hated her
<v Speaker 2>sister and wanted to see Jenny lose her kids too.
<v Speaker 5>Nice right, You could hear that she was afraid that
<v Speaker 5>her kids may be taken away. She wanted to make
<v Speaker 5>sure that they were You know, do you believe.
<v Speaker 3>She sounded an entax kids No, I didn't.
<v Speaker 5>I didn't hear.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, Jenny was an alcoholic k as is, so
<v Speaker 1>I couldn't tell the difference either way, you know what
<v Speaker 1>I mean? She wasn't stupid drunk kid by the time. Okay,
<v Speaker 1>so and she called it did know that she You
<v Speaker 1>could tell that she just wanted to make sure that
<v Speaker 1>the girls were I mean that the house was taken
<v Speaker 1>care of.
<v Speaker 5>He because she did not want to lose her because
<v Speaker 5>she was concerned.
<v Speaker 2>The whole family knew Jenny was an alcoholic, but her
<v Speaker 2>habits had gotten worse over the prior months. Finances were tight,
<v Speaker 2>and she was spending any extra money she had on
<v Speaker 2>beer and all of her free time drinking it. The kids,
<v Speaker 2>three dogs, the pet mouse, none of them were being
<v Speaker 2>cared for properly, and the trailer they lived in was
<v Speaker 2>an absolute disaster, as you can imagine. To top it
<v Speaker 2>all off, they didn't even have running water.
<v Speaker 3>How long were the pape was frozen for?
<v Speaker 1>She had said something to me on Thursday about it.
<v Speaker 6>So just a few.
<v Speaker 1>Days and everything worked, the heat worked and everything is that.
<v Speaker 1>The furnace broke the day before in Ale came.
<v Speaker 5>It fixed it that day.
<v Speaker 2>Al was Jenny's boyfriend you lived nearby and the two
<v Speaker 2>were still friends.
<v Speaker 6>They were waiting that trailer on her own with.
<v Speaker 1>For the most part, yes, there was I think there
<v Speaker 1>was one time in the spring that she had her
<v Speaker 1>gas turned off and she called me. It was after
<v Speaker 1>it was it was fall, because my mom had already
<v Speaker 1>passed away. She called me and she said, said, you
<v Speaker 1>got to call grandma. And now I'm going to go
<v Speaker 1>between between Grandma.
<v Speaker 6>Because I took it.
<v Speaker 1>Upon myself to make sure everything was, you know, taking
<v Speaker 1>care of with my mom and taking care of his grandma.
<v Speaker 1>Everybody kind of looked at me as the one people
<v Speaker 1>would help them if they needed something from Grandma. So
<v Speaker 1>she asked me, I need money for rent, any money
<v Speaker 1>to fix the car.
<v Speaker 6>I need money to get my license back, any.
<v Speaker 5>Money to you know, all this stuff.
<v Speaker 1>And I like, I think it was you got to
<v Speaker 1>get clean. You're drinking, you know when I can help you.
<v Speaker 1>And Grandma was like, I wish I didn't give her
<v Speaker 1>a lecture. I said, you have to give her lecture
<v Speaker 1>every time, althoughay, she doesn't know how you fail. Grandma,
<v Speaker 1>I said, no, this is your fault, you know, And
<v Speaker 1>I just she did have a shut off all the times,
<v Speaker 1>but not to the extent where the girls didn't have
<v Speaker 1>anywhere else to go or you know, couldn't take care.
<v Speaker 5>Of themselves and stuff. And they always had food enough
<v Speaker 5>frigs and stuff like that.
<v Speaker 2>So unfortunately, food in the fridge is not the only
<v Speaker 2>criteria CPS looks for when deciding whether a home is
<v Speaker 2>safe for children. It looked like Jenny might actually get
<v Speaker 2>a visit from a social worker, and it wouldn't be
<v Speaker 2>the first time CPS had taken her kids before, but
<v Speaker 2>she knew that if it happened again, she might not
<v Speaker 2>be able to get them back. Lauren didn't want to
<v Speaker 2>be at her family's beck and call. She knew Jenny's
<v Speaker 2>situation was largely because of her own unwillingness to get
<v Speaker 2>help for her alcoholism and whatever else was going on
<v Speaker 2>in her drama filled life. Her chief concern were her
<v Speaker 2>two nieces, Jenny's eight year old daughter Alexa apologies if
<v Speaker 2>I just activated your devices at home and five year
<v Speaker 2>old daughter Ashley. So Lauren, the family crisis manager that
<v Speaker 2>she was, gathered some friends, a guy named Russell and
<v Speaker 2>a woman named Jessica. She offered them ten bucks for
<v Speaker 2>their time and drove them over to her sister's house
<v Speaker 2>to help her clean it up.
<v Speaker 1>So then I went to Ale's house to pick her up,
<v Speaker 1>and she who's al vander Boss, which just the man
<v Speaker 1>whether where she was at. He lives in trailer park
<v Speaker 1>as well. Yeah, like they're all with them, their two
<v Speaker 1>black ladies. So I drove over there after. I asked Russell,
<v Speaker 1>I have Jessica. They wanted to make tech box. I
<v Speaker 1>asked Stacy too, but she.
<v Speaker 5>Said she didn't want to go in the house because
<v Speaker 5>she knows too dirty.
<v Speaker 3>She wanted to with that. Okay, so you picked up
<v Speaker 3>any of the two kids.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, no, I picked up Jennifer.
<v Speaker 1>I think the kids stayed there with Ale and I
<v Speaker 1>had Russell or Duska in the car with me.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So he picked up Jennifer at vander Boss.
<v Speaker 5>I think that's in the statement. I think you made
<v Speaker 5>a boss.
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure main or Voss and that she boyfriend just.
<v Speaker 6>As boyfriend still friends kind of.
<v Speaker 3>Oh, Jenny man, okay, Uh, kids kids were lost there.
<v Speaker 5>She got in the car, she was acting fine. She
<v Speaker 5>just said, you know, let's go right now, we'll get
<v Speaker 5>it's done. And I said, okay, Jenny, you know we
<v Speaker 5>have a couple of hours or whatever we've been done.
<v Speaker 5>She was, she was upset. I remember her saying something.
<v Speaker 5>She was upset because she thinks Lisa.
<v Speaker 6>And Livedsey were gonna call.
<v Speaker 3>Where did she she said?
<v Speaker 1>She said that when she was over at Elizabeth's house
<v Speaker 1>earlier that day, she was on the phone with Lisa,
<v Speaker 1>Lisa had told her something that triggered a memory.
<v Speaker 7>Of how.
<v Speaker 1>It's possible that she may have been hypnotized into being
<v Speaker 1>a bad person.
<v Speaker 3>And that like sypathized Jennifer.
<v Speaker 1>She said that she Lisa said something that triggered a
<v Speaker 1>memory of some kind into her realizing that she may
<v Speaker 1>have been hypnotized.
<v Speaker 2>During her teenage years, Jenny was probably grasping its straws,
<v Speaker 2>trying to find reasons why her life turned out as
<v Speaker 2>terribly as it did and why she couldn't seem to
<v Speaker 2>be a good parent like her little sister Lauren. See
<v Speaker 2>I wonder why being you know, hypnotized is an answer
<v Speaker 2>that takes the blame off of Jenny herself. It's one
<v Speaker 2>of the things that alcoholics do. Just trust me on that.
<v Speaker 2>Though she wasn't actually hypnotized, Jenny hadn't had an easy life. Sure,
<v Speaker 2>her situation was a result of her own decisions, but
<v Speaker 2>decisions are often influenced by past experiences, and Jenny's life
<v Speaker 2>had been rather traumatic.
<v Speaker 6>Jenny always had problems.
<v Speaker 5>She believed that she was worth us.
<v Speaker 8>She believed, I mean, she.
<v Speaker 1>Was raped and everything else from moun didn't take care
<v Speaker 1>of her, you know her like our mom, I meant
<v Speaker 1>a lot. And she probably thought, you know, for some reason,
<v Speaker 1>I'm not being taken care of because you know, my
<v Speaker 1>mom brought this horrible man into her life.
<v Speaker 6>You know what I mean.
<v Speaker 5>Like she just she just kept getting different kinds of
<v Speaker 5>thoughts about that.
<v Speaker 7>So when back to you told me the day you're
<v Speaker 7>you're a natural father was convicted of rape of Jennifer.
<v Speaker 3>And work at what age, like how old? I think
<v Speaker 3>it was a very long period of time.
<v Speaker 5>I think from like twelve to fifteen.
<v Speaker 3>Twelve to fifteen.
<v Speaker 1>She was molested from Joseph, her father's brother, Robert. He's
<v Speaker 1>actually impaired. She told me that he molested her as
<v Speaker 1>well growing up in the younger ages that the neighbor
<v Speaker 1>at the residents that I live in now, one of
<v Speaker 1>the old neighbors that live there, like their nephew or something.
<v Speaker 5>Lest year as well. She was very.
<v Speaker 1>Just I mean walking down the street kind of thing.
<v Speaker 1>She told me before my other sister I'm refer she
<v Speaker 1>was raped. She pulled into a van.
<v Speaker 9>Right.
<v Speaker 2>Even after a childhood full of abuse, Jenny managed to
<v Speaker 2>pull something of a life together. She had full custody
<v Speaker 2>of her two young daughters, had a place for them
<v Speaker 2>to live, and worked as a manager for McDonald's. She
<v Speaker 2>wasn't addicted to hard drugs like her sister Lizzie, but
<v Speaker 2>alcoholism can be more difficult to beat because it's normalized
<v Speaker 2>in society. I mean, try going out, just going out
<v Speaker 2>on the weekend. Try to do something and not be
<v Speaker 2>around alcohol. It's impossible. Plus, you know, no one gives
<v Speaker 2>you a side eye if they see you sipping on
<v Speaker 2>a can of beer. How would they know it's your
<v Speaker 2>twelfth drink. On the other hand, if you have a
<v Speaker 2>needle hanging out of your arm, like a lot of
<v Speaker 2>the residents of Portland, someone might actually call the cops
<v Speaker 2>on you. Probably not a Democrat though. Anyways, Lauren, Jenny
<v Speaker 2>and their posse of helpers arrived at the trailer and
<v Speaker 2>got to work.
<v Speaker 3>So, yes, you guys wanted to get bottles from now
<v Speaker 3>The whole time the kids weren't here.
<v Speaker 5>No, the whole time, the kids were at Al's house.
<v Speaker 1>And Jenny told me, go pick up some more beer
<v Speaker 1>from ails and bring it back before you go to
<v Speaker 1>the store.
<v Speaker 5>And we went to Ale's house and I grabbed the beers.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, and how many you guys we some before that
<v Speaker 3>I didn't have it. They didn't have any.
<v Speaker 5>She Al has said that she had some before, and
<v Speaker 5>I don't really know. And she had some at her
<v Speaker 5>house too, and she drank a couple hover cleaning for
<v Speaker 5>the first hour and a.
<v Speaker 1>Half or with that, we went to turn all the
<v Speaker 1>bottles that she had, I mean, she had some in
<v Speaker 1>her shut she had on her sanksha all the house.
<v Speaker 5>So we were trying to clear the clutter make some
<v Speaker 5>money for garbage bags like balbs. Water. The pipes were frozen,
<v Speaker 5>so we could you know, pet it up her wash forever.
<v Speaker 5>And so we went to the store. We came back
<v Speaker 5>and we just continued to clean.
<v Speaker 3>And she were still alone and came back.
<v Speaker 5>Well, like I said, we'd forgotten to bring her that beer.
<v Speaker 5>So she was really happy when we got back because
<v Speaker 5>she had her beer again. My mother serxture, you get
<v Speaker 5>something we brought her some more beer, and at that
<v Speaker 5>time we just finished up cleaning. Jessica was.
<v Speaker 1>Getting lazy, playing with the dogs or whatever. And then
<v Speaker 1>me and Russell were in the girls better finishing out.
<v Speaker 5>Vacuum and stuff.
<v Speaker 1>And then I went and did the bathroom myself and
<v Speaker 1>did the me and Russell did the back better, and
<v Speaker 1>Jenny was doing the kitchen and addish and stuff, trying.
<v Speaker 5>To get everything out of the kitchen.
<v Speaker 2>At this point, Jenny was becoming more paranoid with each beer.
<v Speaker 2>After the others left, Jenny confided in her sister that
<v Speaker 2>she feared they too would call CPS on her since
<v Speaker 2>they had seen the state of the house firsthand.
<v Speaker 1>Josica might know because I know she and he was
<v Speaker 1>afraid that Jessica was going to call the CPS because
<v Speaker 1>of something that she said, which.
<v Speaker 5>I don't know what she said. I have no idea.
<v Speaker 5>She's like, she's like, you know they're going to call there.
<v Speaker 5>You know they probably think, you know, horrible mom and
<v Speaker 5>all this stuff, and I don't.
<v Speaker 6>Jeffer was afraid was going to yah.
<v Speaker 5>She was afraid Russell and jess.
<v Speaker 6>We're going to call too.
<v Speaker 5>I said, why would they do that? One they were
<v Speaker 5>here helping, you know, and she was afraid that they
<v Speaker 5>were going to do something too.
<v Speaker 6>So I'm like, I mean, did they did either wrestle
<v Speaker 6>or just never better call CPS?
<v Speaker 3>No.
<v Speaker 5>And in fact, in the car when we were going
<v Speaker 5>to alehouse and I told her that she was afraid, she.
<v Speaker 1>Goes, she told me not to tell you guys, But
<v Speaker 1>I was like, you're not going to call the CPS, right,
<v Speaker 1>And Jessica's like, no, you know.
<v Speaker 5>I'm taking away from my mom too.
<v Speaker 1>You know.
<v Speaker 5>She's like, you know I got taken away from my
<v Speaker 5>mom too, and you know I would never do that
<v Speaker 5>to you, and you know, I want to help these kids.
<v Speaker 3>This was on the way to wils to.
<v Speaker 5>Pick up the girl.
<v Speaker 1>She was telling me this stuff, and Jenny had told
<v Speaker 1>me right before we left, like they were getting the
<v Speaker 1>car and she was like, just make sure they don't
<v Speaker 1>call her, and I think she was really fearful that
<v Speaker 1>they would have called.
<v Speaker 6>So you guys left to go with the girls. Yeah,
<v Speaker 6>and brought the girls back.
<v Speaker 1>We left to go get the girls and I helped
<v Speaker 1>them to start get ready, and all of a sudden,
<v Speaker 1>Jenny showed up. Yeah, she ran she's two streets away,
<v Speaker 1>and she got that's kind of weird to me because
<v Speaker 1>she thought we'd left the cell phone there, which I asked,
<v Speaker 1>asked her if that cell phone twice was hers, because
<v Speaker 1>I knew she lost hers.
<v Speaker 5>But I know she had a boost mobile and this
<v Speaker 5>was a motor roll up. In fact, the phone is
<v Speaker 5>in my car right now.
<v Speaker 1>But I said, you know, I don't know where that
<v Speaker 1>phone came from, and she's like, I was, like, I
<v Speaker 1>moved it, I put it on it on the end
<v Speaker 1>table like three times, Jenny, I even asked you if
<v Speaker 1>it was yours, and she's like, oh.
<v Speaker 5>Okay, yeah, but why don't she went over there?
<v Speaker 6>The phone phone right back.
<v Speaker 5>And it's possible as I didn't turn it on or anything.
<v Speaker 5>It doesn't turn on, but I'm sure it works.
<v Speaker 1>But it just seems it strikes me, as I that
<v Speaker 1>she would run all the way over there, even though
<v Speaker 1>we were taking the kids back there, you know what
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying.
<v Speaker 2>So, just to summarize all that, Lauren and the others
<v Speaker 2>left Jenny at the trailer while they went to pick
<v Speaker 2>up Jenny's two daughters, Alexa and n Ashley. Jenny must
<v Speaker 2>have been suspicious that they were conspiring against her to
<v Speaker 2>help CPS take away the kids, and literally ran several
<v Speaker 2>blocks to the house the girls were staying at under
<v Speaker 2>the guise of returning a cell phone.
<v Speaker 1>So I think that she was even fearful at that
<v Speaker 1>time that I would try to take the kids, and
<v Speaker 1>which I don't understand, but whatever. So we Jenny got
<v Speaker 1>in the back and I have the third l sitting
<v Speaker 1>station wag and she got on the back with Lexa.
<v Speaker 1>The first thing she said when she opened the back
<v Speaker 1>and I was already in the car and actually was
<v Speaker 1>in I have a like a booster seat for her.
<v Speaker 1>This was big enough for my daughter and big enough
<v Speaker 1>for her. And she's like, Lauren, why would you ask
<v Speaker 1>Lexa if she does if she even liked me.
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, I didn't say that. And I was like, Lexa,
<v Speaker 5>did you ask her?
<v Speaker 3>Now?
<v Speaker 1>Like I was being complex, like how you talk to kids,
<v Speaker 1>you know, and she's like, she's just quiet, you know,
<v Speaker 1>she didn't say anything. And then she's like, Jenny goes,
<v Speaker 1>are you lying, Lexa? And you know, not angry, not angry.
<v Speaker 6>She was more concerned for you know, why she would
<v Speaker 6>lie to her?
<v Speaker 1>And and I said, Jenny, I didn't say that, And
<v Speaker 1>I said, I talked to him earlier this week when
<v Speaker 1>they were at my house, and I said that, you know,
<v Speaker 1>mama tries her boss, you know.
<v Speaker 5>And that was the end of the conversation. And we
<v Speaker 5>drove home and the kids were just.
<v Speaker 6>Saying, what about did Lesa actually ask her?
<v Speaker 8>I don't her.
<v Speaker 5>I wasn't. I mean, I got into there was.
<v Speaker 6>Never any answer to the question because you asked her.
<v Speaker 6>She never answered question. Jenny asked her. Lexa never answered,
<v Speaker 6>never answered the question.
<v Speaker 5>But I know she was quiet, and Lexi had a
<v Speaker 5>tendency to do stuff like that, just.
<v Speaker 1>Kind of tattle or like say, you know, mix up
<v Speaker 1>the words or something, and that Jenny would get, not upset,
<v Speaker 1>but she would get like like why why do you
<v Speaker 1>have to you have to lie any kind of.
<v Speaker 5>Thing, you know. And so we drove home.
<v Speaker 1>Everything was fine, and we were you know, I had
<v Speaker 1>the radio on whatever. But she opened the door and
<v Speaker 1>she went in, and then the girls, you know, they
<v Speaker 1>went in right ahead of me.
<v Speaker 5>I don't know how we got mixed up with anyway.
<v Speaker 1>And I was like, no, stop because they weren't taking
<v Speaker 1>off their shoes and stuff. I was showing on the
<v Speaker 1>door to take off their shoes to put their colts
<v Speaker 1>and stuff, you know, and I said.
<v Speaker 6>They're like, wow, they're looking around.
<v Speaker 1>They're all excited because the house was so much cleaner
<v Speaker 1>than it was before, like literally three hundred times better, right,
<v Speaker 1>And I mean even I probably weren't used to have
<v Speaker 1>a place to hang the coats and the right, but
<v Speaker 1>they weren't used to and they yearned.
<v Speaker 5>So I don't want to cry, but they yarn so bad.
<v Speaker 1>They have that kind of home, that home when they
<v Speaker 1>ran at my house and stuff, they knew, they knew
<v Speaker 1>the difference.
<v Speaker 5>They were playing with my kids on and said Thursday night,
<v Speaker 5>they love it.
<v Speaker 3>You know.
<v Speaker 5>I was teaching her how to wash from top to
<v Speaker 5>bottom in the bath pen of thing, you know what,
<v Speaker 5>you have to rinse it all out.
<v Speaker 1>Lost. I was in there, you know, lost the night
<v Speaker 1>and brushing my teeth and stuff. I was like, you
<v Speaker 1>got to get ready for bed, you have to, you know.
<v Speaker 1>I was just thinking, to my hand, how does she
<v Speaker 1>not know this stuff at you know, almost nine years
<v Speaker 1>old and she doesn't know how to.
<v Speaker 5>Take care of her own body. Well, I mean, yeah,
<v Speaker 5>I know the frozen pipes.
<v Speaker 2>But other than that, I mean, other than the frozen pipes.
<v Speaker 2>The group had successfully gotten the trailer up to par
<v Speaker 2>Lauren thought she'd fixed the problem. Surely Jenny had no
<v Speaker 2>reason to be concerned anymore. Lauren went home that night
<v Speaker 2>to take care of her own household and planned to
<v Speaker 2>check in on Jenny and her kids the very next day,
<v Speaker 2>right after her shift at the local family restaurant. She
<v Speaker 2>expected to see Jenny lounging around, enjoying the day with
<v Speaker 2>her girls and their newly clean trailer. Lauren certainly hadn't
<v Speaker 2>pictured herself dialing nine one one. Twenty one year old
<v Speaker 2>Lauren Kukla had just cleaned up another family crisis. One
<v Speaker 2>of her sisters, Lizzie, had already lost custody of her children,
<v Speaker 2>and her oldest sister, Jennifer, was about to meet the
<v Speaker 2>same fate. That was, until Lauren rallied a group together
<v Speaker 2>to help Jennifer tidy up her house in preparation for
<v Speaker 2>a CPS visit. The next day, Sunday, February fourth, Lauren
<v Speaker 2>planned to drive over and check in on her sister,
<v Speaker 2>but she was wholly unprepared for what she'd find.
<v Speaker 3>She worked what time eleven or time I worked from ten?
<v Speaker 1>I was there at nine fifty to all the way
<v Speaker 1>to five o'clock five fifteen.
<v Speaker 2>After work, Lauren picked up her kids and drove over
<v Speaker 2>to Jenny's trailer to check in. When she got there,
<v Speaker 2>the front door was hanging open. This immediately struck Lauren
<v Speaker 2>as odd. After all, it was winter in Michigan.
<v Speaker 5>I pulled up up, you know, I called the name
<v Speaker 5>because the door was open.
<v Speaker 8>Like I said, she called her name.
<v Speaker 1>I called her name, and I was on the phone
<v Speaker 1>with my friend Jason at the time, telling them all
<v Speaker 1>about how, you know, how my sister is being annoying
<v Speaker 1>us like or whatever, you know, and how she's pissing
<v Speaker 1>me out.
<v Speaker 5>So I'm going over there right now to see if
<v Speaker 5>she can find her phone in my car or whatever.
<v Speaker 1>And he's like, I'm like, okay, hold on one second,
<v Speaker 1>because the door is open and all the lights are off.
<v Speaker 5>He's like okay. And then I call her name, and
<v Speaker 5>then he was I was like, okay, anyway, I'll you know,
<v Speaker 5>I'll call you later.
<v Speaker 6>And I'm out with him.
<v Speaker 5>And then Jenny comes to the door dress like a
<v Speaker 5>hobo and like a skirt, jeans and sweaters and whatever.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.
<v Speaker 5>I don't even know exactly what her tosks were.
<v Speaker 1>But I know, jeans and a kanke skirt wearing a bottom,
<v Speaker 1>and I was thinking that was really weird, and so
<v Speaker 1>that's not what I'm used to dress sometimes.
<v Speaker 5>When she was being stupid.
<v Speaker 2>What Lauren meant by when she was being stupid is
<v Speaker 2>that her mother used to layer odd, unmatching pieces of
<v Speaker 2>clothing during bad mental health episodes. Increasingly, Jenny was starting
<v Speaker 2>to act more and more like her mother. She would
<v Speaker 2>ramble on about nonsensical things, have bouts of extreme paranoia,
<v Speaker 2>and just you know, actor ratic. Now, Lauren could see
<v Speaker 2>a visual representation of the transformation that had been taking
<v Speaker 2>place for years as Jenny's mental health quietly declined. She
<v Speaker 2>had a khaki shirt layered over a pair of jeans,
<v Speaker 2>Her hair was disheveled, and, like Lauren said, she looked
<v Speaker 2>like a homeless person anyway.
<v Speaker 5>So I go out to the door. I left the
<v Speaker 5>kids in the car. You know, I'm playing. I'm just
<v Speaker 5>stopping at the door, saying, you know, let's go out
<v Speaker 5>to eat or whatever. I did pretty good at work.
<v Speaker 5>I was going to say, let's find.
<v Speaker 6>Your phone and do whatever we gotta do today.
<v Speaker 1>I noticed the first thing that the dogs didn't run
<v Speaker 1>up to me or run outside, or where the hell
<v Speaker 1>were the dogs.
<v Speaker 5>I know, I know the door was opened, but usually
<v Speaker 5>they're visual, you know, I don't know where they are, so.
<v Speaker 1>I didn't hear any barking, and I go, where are
<v Speaker 1>the girls, because usually they at least have a TV
<v Speaker 1>out or something at the radio on.
<v Speaker 5>I was in the door, literally in the doorway, and.
<v Speaker 6>She stood in the door, didn't actually go into yeah.
<v Speaker 5>And then she said I have a cigarett.
<v Speaker 1>And that's when I took my first step into the door,
<v Speaker 1>you know, into the actual house, asked for a cigarette,
<v Speaker 1>and then I noticed this quiet.
<v Speaker 5>I said, where it is?
<v Speaker 4>She said she.
<v Speaker 1>Stand back towards the kitchen table where we're sitting night
<v Speaker 1>before there in the corner, and she said I killed him.
<v Speaker 5>And I said no.
<v Speaker 1>She said, I'm going to the All I said was no,
<v Speaker 1>pretty much. I mean, I don't remember if I said
<v Speaker 1>anything else, but I just said no, and.
<v Speaker 5>Not not like no no, you know, like it was
<v Speaker 5>like no, you know.
<v Speaker 1>And and she said I'm going to the defensive health
<v Speaker 1>and she said it's all over now and it's done.
<v Speaker 1>And that was she wasn't looking at me. She was
<v Speaker 1>looking at the ground and it was plays faced again
<v Speaker 1>and and it was monotone voice too, and.
<v Speaker 5>It is done like that, it is done. And she goes,
<v Speaker 5>I'm going there, and she looked up and she goes,
<v Speaker 5>you have to call the police any Laura. And I said, okay,
<v Speaker 5>I said, but show me how you tried to kill yourself.
<v Speaker 1>And soon as she showed me the wrist, I had
<v Speaker 1>already backed up enough to where I was out almost
<v Speaker 1>out the door at the doorway again, and she showed
<v Speaker 1>it to me.
<v Speaker 5>And I was on the porch by that, like I
<v Speaker 5>took another stuff back.
<v Speaker 1>When I was on the porch or the deck or whatever,
<v Speaker 1>I was starting to go, okay, Jen, you stay here,
<v Speaker 1>keep calm, And that's when I.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I was like, you know, never yeah.
<v Speaker 2>Before her police interview, investigators hope that allowing Lauren to
<v Speaker 2>listen to her own nine one one call over again
<v Speaker 2>would jog her memory and help them piece together what
<v Speaker 2>was going through Jenny's mind.
<v Speaker 5>Well, like, I mean, if you.
<v Speaker 1>Could listen to it right now, I was really calm
<v Speaker 1>in the beginning because I'm still outside of the.
<v Speaker 5>Car when I called, and Jenny was like, are you calling?
<v Speaker 3>And I said.
<v Speaker 1>I wanted to say no because I didn't know. I
<v Speaker 1>was fearful for my kids in the car and for myself.
<v Speaker 1>But I was walking around to get the dressed in
<v Speaker 1>the copy.
<v Speaker 3>We're looking the driveway around the streets.
<v Speaker 1>I walked around the back of the car because I'm thinking,
<v Speaker 1>I'm looking in the car after because she showed me
<v Speaker 1>a wrist. I'm looking in the car for anything that
<v Speaker 1>I could grab out, you know. I'm saying, if she
<v Speaker 1>comes after me, I don't know.
<v Speaker 6>And then I walk up. I don't want to ring
<v Speaker 6>her hands, nothing for nothing like that.
<v Speaker 1>I think she may have been smoking a cigarette because
<v Speaker 1>I gave her one, but I gave her the letter
<v Speaker 1>to use her and she.
<v Speaker 3>Gave it back to me.
<v Speaker 1>But I'm walking around the back of the car, standing
<v Speaker 1>behind the station wage and thinking that's the safest place
<v Speaker 1>if i have to run, because I know.
<v Speaker 5>My car is locked and I have the keys in
<v Speaker 5>my pocket. So I'm staying back there, and I'm saying, yes, Jennifer,
<v Speaker 5>I'm calling you know whatever. I started on a dispatch.
<v Speaker 5>I told them, you know, I don't know what's going on.
<v Speaker 5>I know, and then they're like, man, you have you know.
<v Speaker 5>I fee tallest, and I'm thinking, you know, what is
<v Speaker 5>there to I can't. I couldn't even fathom go in
<v Speaker 5>to what am I supposed to say?
<v Speaker 8>You know?
<v Speaker 1>And I remember telling them that, yeah, she harmed herself
<v Speaker 1>and she said that she killed her kids.
<v Speaker 2>When police arrived at the scene and entered the trailer,
<v Speaker 2>they found Jenny pacing around, ready to be taken to
<v Speaker 2>the quote depths of hell. Their eyes were quickly drawn
<v Speaker 2>to the first bloody scene, three dead dogs piled up
<v Speaker 2>inside a crate. Jenny hadn't stopped there. She even stabbed
<v Speaker 2>the pet mouse inside its cage. As officers made their
<v Speaker 2>way to the back bedroom, they could see that tragically,
<v Speaker 2>Jenny was telling the truth about her kids. That year
<v Speaker 2>old Alexa laid motionless on a makeshift bed next to
<v Speaker 2>her five year old sister Ashley. Their throats had been cut.
<v Speaker 6>Jennifer, you know Mark right, he's been talking to him.
<v Speaker 6>Like I said, I'm Dave. We both worked here for
<v Speaker 6>the Sheriff's office. Okay, you want to talk to you
<v Speaker 6>about what's going on.
<v Speaker 8>Okay, before we do that, can you look at me
<v Speaker 8>while we're talking?
<v Speaker 6>Clear here at your face.
<v Speaker 3>I can see it. There you go look at me.
<v Speaker 3>There you go.
<v Speaker 8>Before we do that, hey, nineteen, I contact me.
<v Speaker 6>Okay, before we do that, we have to read you
<v Speaker 6>your rights.
<v Speaker 8>Okay.
<v Speaker 3>You know what those are. You've heard about it, you
<v Speaker 3>see my TV. All right, I'm gonna read them to you.
<v Speaker 8>Okay, seeactly is they are on the list here, all right,
<v Speaker 8>and then.
<v Speaker 6>We're done, like you just sign them okay, and then
<v Speaker 6>we can talk. We can't talk until we do that,
<v Speaker 6>right Are you cold?
<v Speaker 5>I want to talk about it?
<v Speaker 6>Are you just nervous?
<v Speaker 5>I'm wanna talk about it. I don't want to think
<v Speaker 5>about it.
<v Speaker 1>Okay.
<v Speaker 10>Let me just read your rights here, okay, like you
<v Speaker 10>have to write for your main silence first of all, Jennifer, okay,
<v Speaker 10>take any breath.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, get ahold of yourself.
<v Speaker 5>All right, so I don't know, get ahold of yourself
<v Speaker 5>right now.
<v Speaker 6>You're a set if you got right to be.
<v Speaker 3>Okay.
<v Speaker 5>We got to go through this all right, Okay.
<v Speaker 6>Do you understand all those yes?
<v Speaker 5>Okay?
<v Speaker 8>And then the last question is.
<v Speaker 6>I mean I don't want to talk about it.
<v Speaker 10>You finish a surf. I really state I have really statements.
<v Speaker 10>Oh my right, so I understand what my rights are.
<v Speaker 10>I'm willing to make a statement answer questions. I do
<v Speaker 10>not want a lawyer at this time. I understand and
<v Speaker 10>know what I'm doing. No promise is the threat's been
<v Speaker 10>made to me, no pressure or course of any kind
<v Speaker 10>of news against me. Okay, do you understand that?
<v Speaker 3>Okay?
<v Speaker 8>All that, knowing all that, you want to talk to
<v Speaker 8>us right now?
<v Speaker 5>I don't want to talk about it.
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to think about it.
<v Speaker 8>Okay, Okay, enniversity, because you want to talk to an.
<v Speaker 5>Attorney or do you I don't even want to think
<v Speaker 5>about it.
<v Speaker 11>We just want to get a couple of things straights,
<v Speaker 11>make sure we've got everything, got everything right, okay, So
<v Speaker 11>we don't want to get everything anything wrong.
<v Speaker 1>Okay.
<v Speaker 11>If you want to talk to an attorney, that's one thing.
<v Speaker 11>But if you just if you're a little nervous about it,
<v Speaker 11>maybe can work that out. You're very cooperative during the
<v Speaker 11>the friends of the name, which we really appreciate. Nurses
<v Speaker 11>were very pleased with that.
<v Speaker 5>Are you cold, well, I just don't want to talk
<v Speaker 5>about it.
<v Speaker 6>H you want a blanket?
<v Speaker 3>No, get your blanket or okay?
<v Speaker 5>So if you remember that, I love you for that one.
<v Speaker 8>Okay, sit tiny for a minute.
<v Speaker 2>In case you couldn't understand her. At the end, she said,
<v Speaker 2>erase my brain, erase my memory, and I'd love you
<v Speaker 2>for that one. We can only imagine what's in there.
<v Speaker 3>Do you understand what we're trying to do here? You know,
<v Speaker 3>like I said, if you want an attorney or something
<v Speaker 3>like that, I can understand it.
<v Speaker 11>Just try something, though. I'm just I'm just talking to you,
<v Speaker 11>not an We just want to make sure we got
<v Speaker 11>things right. We want to make sure we're going to
<v Speaker 11>understand it. We don't want to make any mistakes. That's
<v Speaker 11>why we want to talk to you.
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to of course, I don't want to
<v Speaker 3>talk you into talk.
<v Speaker 11>And if you if you want to talk to attorney,
<v Speaker 11>but if you're just a little nervous, we can wait.
<v Speaker 11>We can get you some water, you know, just just
<v Speaker 11>got your relaxed a little bit. Okay, get your blanket.
<v Speaker 3>It is cold in there. I'm even cold in there.
<v Speaker 2>It's clear that these guys were getting nervous that Jenny
<v Speaker 2>made a not to talk, so they started to employ
<v Speaker 2>a little bit of good cop, bad cop. Just before
<v Speaker 2>the one detective was able to follow through on his
<v Speaker 2>promise of some water in a blanket. The other came
<v Speaker 2>bursting back into the room.
<v Speaker 3>What do you think about that? Well, I sit and
<v Speaker 3>think about it with a little bit of water in
<v Speaker 3>a blanket. Water. Okay, we'll gonna get you some.
<v Speaker 8>Water, all right. You don't want to talk to us,
<v Speaker 8>is that right? You don't want to talk to us.
<v Speaker 6>I don't want to talk.
<v Speaker 1>About it, or you can add I can see if
<v Speaker 1>I can't answer it with I don't I can't crap.
<v Speaker 6>Okay, stay up there, answered you back.
<v Speaker 2>They took her back to her cell and planned to
<v Speaker 2>try again the next day.
<v Speaker 12>Con Man used to reiterate, Yesterday you said you didn't
<v Speaker 12>want to talk to us because you you just run
<v Speaker 12>out to us a talk. Today, you want to talk
<v Speaker 12>to us, Jennifer. Today you do want to talk to
<v Speaker 12>us without the owner presence. It doesn't matter, okay, And
<v Speaker 12>see it doesn't matter. That means you want to talk
<v Speaker 12>to us.
<v Speaker 3>Okay.
<v Speaker 6>He've been broken career. Don't want to come off truth, Jennifer.
<v Speaker 6>Do you take any of medication normally at all? Nothing? No, okay,
<v Speaker 6>nothing for any type of psychiatric or nothing for any type.
<v Speaker 3>Of the physical.
<v Speaker 5>Okay.
<v Speaker 2>Once Jennifer really starts to open up, the detectives. In
<v Speaker 2>this interview, it's clear that she absolutely needed to be
<v Speaker 2>on psychiatric medicine. It's not often that we gain access
<v Speaker 2>to police interviews of defendants suffering from severe mental illness,
<v Speaker 2>but Jennifer's case is unique. We'll get back to that later.
<v Speaker 3>Well, what do you want to know?
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.
<v Speaker 6>Well, we know when we're here, right, yeah, okay, and
<v Speaker 6>we know what happen, and you know what happened, right.
<v Speaker 3>The big question is why, And that's what I want.
<v Speaker 5>I don't know.
<v Speaker 13>I really don't fucking know. It's like the night before
<v Speaker 13>or two nights before, you got whatever. I just stay
<v Speaker 13>up all my line up there, and every time I
<v Speaker 13>close my eyes and keep having like bad dreams they're
<v Speaker 13>like dead people or whatever and blah blah blah, And
<v Speaker 13>I'm like, well, what the hell?
<v Speaker 5>This is just weird.
<v Speaker 6>So I freaking didn't.
<v Speaker 5>Even think about that.
<v Speaker 6>Does this happen to you frequently, that you dream about
<v Speaker 6>dead people or No?
<v Speaker 5>Never I watched freaking story movies. Nothing, it's just hears me, first.
<v Speaker 6>Time you've ever had that type of thing. Okay, I mean,
<v Speaker 6>help my kid.
<v Speaker 5>We were so watching sci fi here all the time.
<v Speaker 6>Okay.
<v Speaker 5>Anyway, so I was look up all night for that.
<v Speaker 5>No big deal, We'll go next day, No big deal,
<v Speaker 5>no crowns, nothing.
<v Speaker 3>Would that have been?
<v Speaker 6>What day would that have been?
<v Speaker 3>I don't remember.
<v Speaker 5>I don't even know what day it is right now.
<v Speaker 6>Today's Monday.
<v Speaker 5>When did I get here?
<v Speaker 6>Yesterday was Sunday?
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so this has been.
<v Speaker 5>A Saturday morning. Everything was fine, and then all of
<v Speaker 5>a sudden, my sister was there, My sister, Lauren. She
<v Speaker 5>doesn't want to cause good, right, she was at my house,
<v Speaker 5>and all of a sudden, it was like I just
<v Speaker 5>kept freaking hearing his voice in my head telling me
<v Speaker 5>all this she's liked. Jenny stopped talking to them. Stop
<v Speaker 5>wasn't in a voice or whatever the hell you're doing?
<v Speaker 5>Stopped doing and then.
<v Speaker 6>Talking about how you know you were listening to the
<v Speaker 6>voice I.
<v Speaker 8>Was telling her.
<v Speaker 6>What it was saying is that it was Saturday morning.
<v Speaker 5>No, if I got here Sunday, it would have been
<v Speaker 5>a Saturday afternoon.
<v Speaker 2>Now keep in mind, the average person would probably freak
<v Speaker 2>out upon hearing their sibling talking to themselves as if
<v Speaker 2>they're having a conversation. But for Lauren, this was nothing new.
<v Speaker 2>She was no stranger to brushing off the nonsensical ramblings.
<v Speaker 2>She even said to Jenny, stopped talking to those voices
<v Speaker 2>or whatever it is that you're doing. In Lauren's sane mind,
<v Speaker 2>addressing her older sister's mental illness was at the bottom
<v Speaker 2>of the list of priorities. When Jenny's pipes froze and
<v Speaker 2>the trailer descended into chaos, Lauren's first concern was the
<v Speaker 2>safe d of her nieces. Basically, she thought, Okay, Jenny
<v Speaker 2>isn't a danger to herself or them. She's made it
<v Speaker 2>this far in life. Let's just deal with the issues
<v Speaker 2>that we can fix right now, which you know makes
<v Speaker 2>a lot of sense.
<v Speaker 6>And what did you guys do? Were you guys picking
<v Speaker 6>things up around the house?
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, they make clean up my house and shit, Okay,
<v Speaker 5>so I've been, I've been. I've been drinking way.
<v Speaker 8>Too much in my house.
<v Speaker 3>With a say, what were you guys cleaning it for?
<v Speaker 13>She said, I was a first six twey call that
<v Speaker 13>was gonna lose my kids. That house was that man,
<v Speaker 13>I mean, it had to be cleaned up. So they
<v Speaker 13>came over to help me clean it up and drinking
<v Speaker 13>I was gonna My sister paid them ten bucks apiece to.
<v Speaker 5>Help me that day, and I was gonna pick her
<v Speaker 5>back the money that was broke.
<v Speaker 8>Did were you drinking when they were there?
<v Speaker 5>I had a couple of beers when they were there.
<v Speaker 3>How often are you drinking?
<v Speaker 6>Did you've been drinking a lot with me?
<v Speaker 8>And how much every day?
<v Speaker 5>Maybe out like a twelve pack a day, but I
<v Speaker 5>was cutting.
<v Speaker 13>I was trying to no between the six and a
<v Speaker 13>twelve pack bit okay, usually by natural ice, bea or whatever,
<v Speaker 13>but right shoot, they were helping him over and they
<v Speaker 13>were helped me to do that, and I just started
<v Speaker 13>freaking out. And then after they left it, when fregaging,
<v Speaker 13>I started, actually.
<v Speaker 6>Do you hear voices any drink?
<v Speaker 2>No?
<v Speaker 13>I don't think I ever had that happened to me
<v Speaker 13>ever in my entire life. It was just like somebody's
<v Speaker 13>freaking right in my fucking head. And it wasn't even
<v Speaker 13>like hearing hearing voices. I could hear it, and it
<v Speaker 13>was like I was reading it at the same time,
<v Speaker 13>if that makes any sense. It wasn't a weird shit
<v Speaker 13>go to this part of the house, on to that
<v Speaker 13>part of the house. What did this part of the
<v Speaker 13>house go to that part of the house.
<v Speaker 5>It was like all nice and.
<v Speaker 13>Sweet at first, and then freaking it started getting freaking weird,
<v Speaker 13>and then it just freaking got evil.
<v Speaker 5>It freaking it's.
<v Speaker 13>Even telling me, and then I forget started listening to it,
<v Speaker 13>I guess, because then I forget started taking the It
<v Speaker 13>started saying something about freaking people being on Saturday to
<v Speaker 13>coming and kill us and all this weird ship, and
<v Speaker 13>then freaking.
<v Speaker 5>I'd have to do this or that if I don't
<v Speaker 5>want my kids to die, to do this or that,
<v Speaker 5>and then.
<v Speaker 13>Freaking after like freaking probably about half hour hour that
<v Speaker 13>forging it finally freaking it told me to get my
<v Speaker 13>kids already and take them down the streets their friend's
<v Speaker 13>house so that they wouldn't die that night, and then
<v Speaker 13>halfway there and said take them back home because they
<v Speaker 13>already they're already killed at their house.
<v Speaker 6>And did you actually take them down the street?
<v Speaker 2>Ideah, all of what Jenny is recounting the police that
<v Speaker 2>happened after her sister Lauren left that night.
<v Speaker 5>I'm still confused. I'm still just like figuring this out.
<v Speaker 5>It was like, what the hell, man, what did I do?
<v Speaker 13>I actually freaking did that. Oh, it gets weirder, and
<v Speaker 13>this gets really weirder. Forget that all that happened, and
<v Speaker 13>then okay, I find you get back in the house, and.
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, well, what the hell you know?
<v Speaker 11>This is just fun.
<v Speaker 13>Kid's voice told me to whatever boy was told me
<v Speaker 13>to and forget not to go down there because they
<v Speaker 13>were already dead and blah blah, and then told me
<v Speaker 13>to go back to the house and I said, well,
<v Speaker 13>sack in the morning, because then you'll find out they're.
<v Speaker 5>Not dead, but don't go over there now. And then
<v Speaker 5>blah bah blah and back and forth and back and forth,
<v Speaker 5>and kept.
<v Speaker 13>Staying stuff about how people would come over there and
<v Speaker 13>kill me and I'd never know it when they finally
<v Speaker 13>broke in the house.
<v Speaker 6>And so you return to the house with the girls
<v Speaker 6>because the voice tells.
<v Speaker 5>You, and back and forth.
<v Speaker 13>And then it was like got nicer again, and it
<v Speaker 13>was like, well, you have to do this, and you
<v Speaker 13>have to do that, you know this, bigger girls to
<v Speaker 13>make them nice, yea. You gotta take care of your
<v Speaker 13>kids and blah blah blah, And then I started getting
<v Speaker 13>evil again.
<v Speaker 6>Were you gonna put the girls to bed?
<v Speaker 13>Yes?
<v Speaker 8>I did, or they sleeping on the floor so.
<v Speaker 13>We were gonna all sleep together on the bedroom because
<v Speaker 13>it was like, well, what whatever, and this voice is
<v Speaker 13>telling me all this weird shit. So we're because we
<v Speaker 13>haven't done this in years because I used to see
<v Speaker 13>about the couch. But then we were gonna freaking sleep
<v Speaker 13>on the bed, so freaking we made up the bed
<v Speaker 13>on the floor in the girl's room and freaking we
<v Speaker 13>were gonna lay out. I actually laid out in the
<v Speaker 13>middle of them. Laf Stoe was on this side of
<v Speaker 13>me and iron her I was I was rubbing her
<v Speaker 13>head and Ashto was on this tight and that was
<v Speaker 13>the same thing with her.
<v Speaker 6>And we were going to sleep like that.
<v Speaker 5>We're all like, oh, you got a lot, I have
<v Speaker 5>good dreams, well, blah blah blah.
<v Speaker 13>And it was all good like that, and then frigging
<v Speaker 13>I got up and the boys started talking to me
<v Speaker 13>again and freaking telling me, this.
<v Speaker 6>Is asleep at that point when you got up, yeah, okay.
<v Speaker 13>And frigging I actually went in for a moment. I
<v Speaker 13>hit the bush and Knight bops my neck and I
<v Speaker 13>didn't do that, And then freaking the voice is telling
<v Speaker 13>me to do this and that, and then it's telling
<v Speaker 13>me to go kill my kids before the people break
<v Speaker 13>into my house to kill them, and heard them even
<v Speaker 13>worse than what they were going, what would have happened
<v Speaker 13>or whatever, Just kill them so that it doesn't happen.
<v Speaker 5>And I wasn't gonna do that. I was just sitting
<v Speaker 5>there going and listen with the freaking thank of my
<v Speaker 5>ain't going, Oh my god, oh my god, oh agad
<v Speaker 5>if anybody go walks in here, motherfucker.
<v Speaker 2>So the voices and Jennifer's had were apparently telling her
<v Speaker 2>that if she didn't kill her kids, people would break
<v Speaker 2>into your house, take them away from her, and they'd
<v Speaker 2>suffer a fate far worse than death, whatever that is.
<v Speaker 2>At this point, she had long stopped drinking beers, hoping
<v Speaker 2>sobriety would make all of this go away, but it
<v Speaker 2>wasn't working. At first, Jennifer refused to give into the
<v Speaker 2>voices and follow through with the murders. Instead, she put
<v Speaker 2>the butcher knife she grabbed from the kitchen up to
<v Speaker 2>her own throat and considered killing herself. After deciding against that,
<v Speaker 2>she went and sat in the front room, still clutching
<v Speaker 2>the knife and waited for people to arrive. If the
<v Speaker 2>voices were right and someone did break in, she'd be
<v Speaker 2>ready to defend her family. Some time passed, and obviously
<v Speaker 2>nothing happened. The voices were gone too, so, thinking the
<v Speaker 2>whole ordeal was over, she went back and laid in
<v Speaker 2>bed with her girls, eventually falling asleep until morning.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, go back to you at seven thirty, you old
<v Speaker 3>come up, put your cold and shoes on.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.
<v Speaker 13>And then we were gonna go leave, and freaking doesn't
<v Speaker 13>where theyre like, no, freaking we can't leave.
<v Speaker 8>Whatever blow you're gonna go.
<v Speaker 13>Do you think I'll across the streets to the payphone
<v Speaker 13>to call my dad for some reason. Okay, I try
<v Speaker 13>to come pick us up because I was like, freaking
<v Speaker 13>so scared. Then we I don't even know if we
<v Speaker 13>went outside.
<v Speaker 3>I don't remember.
<v Speaker 5>Before we turned back in and freaking didn't and then
<v Speaker 5>it was like nothing was happening. And then all this done.
<v Speaker 5>I just freaking grabbed the knife and did it all right.
<v Speaker 6>When that happened, where did you get the knife from?
<v Speaker 5>I think he was in the kitchen.
<v Speaker 8>And how did the girls get.
<v Speaker 3>Back in the bedroom?
<v Speaker 8>Yeah, and they went back in the bedroom.
<v Speaker 13>And then we're scared, I know, and who who uh
<v Speaker 13>who went first, Lexa, your younger one, bigger one, the
<v Speaker 13>bigger one.
<v Speaker 5>I'm sorry, she's actually by the way. Actually, I thought,
<v Speaker 5>freaking I'm gonna swear it. I thought I was like
<v Speaker 5>telling him, I I love you. You know you'll never
<v Speaker 5>be heard. Blow, I'll what that happened to you? And
<v Speaker 5>then she's like, can't actually, and it was like okay,
<v Speaker 5>and then I walked out of the freaking bedroom. And
<v Speaker 5>so I can't even believe I said that. I don't
<v Speaker 5>believe I said it. Yeah, I don't believe that. I
<v Speaker 5>must have heard that in my fucking head.
<v Speaker 6>There's no actually run from the room.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, she was in the fleet, hiding under the kitchen table.
<v Speaker 2>This was clearly difficult for Jennifer talking about what she
<v Speaker 2>did to her own two little girls. You can hear
<v Speaker 2>in the audio that she seems to show some remorse,
<v Speaker 2>but her train of thought keeps getting redirected away from
<v Speaker 2>the worst parts of that morning.
<v Speaker 6>Did you bring Ashley back in the bedroom?
<v Speaker 3>Next to walk?
<v Speaker 9>So?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?
<v Speaker 8>Did does that where she died?
<v Speaker 6>Is that where it happened.
<v Speaker 5>That I think?
<v Speaker 9>Yeah?
<v Speaker 5>I don't take airshleep died until the better?
<v Speaker 3>Did you?
<v Speaker 6>Cause it was in the kitchen your your back to
<v Speaker 6>the bedroom.
<v Speaker 5>Yes, but she was thought she was there in the kitchen,
<v Speaker 5>but I don't think she was. I don't think she better.
<v Speaker 6>Did you actually stab her in the kitchen?
<v Speaker 1>Yes?
<v Speaker 8>And how did you stab her?
<v Speaker 6>Where would she was she on the floor, on the ground,
<v Speaker 6>on her back? Where she's standing on?
<v Speaker 3>I don't remember.
<v Speaker 6>Did you stay?
<v Speaker 5>Maybe I didn't do it in the kitchen.
<v Speaker 1>That I don't know.
<v Speaker 6>Okay, but did you you took her back to the
<v Speaker 6>better at some point? Was she fighting you?
<v Speaker 9>No?
<v Speaker 5>I don't know.
<v Speaker 3>I don't think so.
<v Speaker 5>She's probably was. I would have, man, fuck you?
<v Speaker 8>You laid her next to uh to Alexa.
<v Speaker 3>Was dead at this point?
<v Speaker 8>Yeah?
<v Speaker 6>And when you lay Ashley?
<v Speaker 8>Was she dead when you lay her next to all
<v Speaker 8>that storry? Did you play her down then.
<v Speaker 5>Lay down? And I think I made sure team was dead?
<v Speaker 3>I don't know when you say you made sure she
<v Speaker 3>what did you do?
<v Speaker 6>See?
<v Speaker 8>If there's pulp? Can you show me how can you
<v Speaker 8>put the cup down for a second?
<v Speaker 6>Show me what hand you held a knife in, and
<v Speaker 6>show me.
<v Speaker 8>How you actually what motions.
<v Speaker 9>You got it?
<v Speaker 6>I don't know.
<v Speaker 5>It's just like dead you were, I think out.
<v Speaker 6>So you're holding your hand up like this and coming
<v Speaker 6>down with a knife.
<v Speaker 8>You hold a knife like this or like like this.
<v Speaker 2>In the footage, the detective shows two different stabbing motions.
<v Speaker 2>The first one he demonstrates is an overhead downward motion,
<v Speaker 2>while the other is an underhanded swiping upwards or the
<v Speaker 2>voice is still.
<v Speaker 13>Taught to me, when you were doing this, they were
<v Speaker 13>doing this long. I wouldn't freaking leave my house. After
<v Speaker 13>I did it, I actually thought I saved them. And
<v Speaker 13>then I started looking around the house and freaking everything
<v Speaker 13>the voices told me the night before, and the voices
<v Speaker 13>are actually even telling me. I think that freaking they
<v Speaker 13>were going to drive me crazy, so I kill my kids.
<v Speaker 13>And by the morning time and I was like noo.
<v Speaker 5>At one point, I think, all right, so I don't
<v Speaker 5>remember everything.
<v Speaker 9>Sometime it was sometimes shortly after seven thirty yesterday morning
<v Speaker 9>when the girls die, right yep?
<v Speaker 8>Okay? And then and then how long did that the
<v Speaker 8>dogs die? You were cooling?
<v Speaker 1>Not long.
<v Speaker 13>I was walking around the house and then kept thinking
<v Speaker 13>about freaking weird shit about I was going to burn
<v Speaker 13>in hell now and demons were gonna come pick me
<v Speaker 13>up from the front of my house. And I'm freaking
<v Speaker 13>red car with fingers and toenails. That's freaking seats, covers
<v Speaker 13>and shit.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.
<v Speaker 5>It was fuck freaky.
<v Speaker 13>And all of a sudden it was like the dogs
<v Speaker 13>are still alive, freaking I want to be tortured, he
<v Speaker 13>does one of they drop me down into hell.
<v Speaker 5>I gotta kill the animals.
<v Speaker 3>Killed the animals? How to do that? They stuck a
<v Speaker 3>knife in it.
<v Speaker 5>And just went down and mixture, they were dead?
<v Speaker 3>Were they on the ground? Were you holding them?
<v Speaker 5>They were in a green blanket.
<v Speaker 13>But Angel, the big of them, actually got away and
<v Speaker 13>ran into the kitchen day to chase her down It
<v Speaker 13>for your pet, And I told him it was their
<v Speaker 13>own good.
<v Speaker 3>And you you put her on a blanket, threw them
<v Speaker 3>in the cage, okay. And then what are the little
<v Speaker 3>ones called the buffies?
<v Speaker 5>They were.
<v Speaker 6>Jasmine and.
<v Speaker 5>What was the other one's saying?
<v Speaker 3>And they were the offspring of Angel, that was their mindkay.
<v Speaker 5>I don't know she's she.
<v Speaker 13>Was full Pomeranian and I don't know what the dad was.
<v Speaker 13>She just got pregnant, okay. And then what about that
<v Speaker 13>mouse in the pet mouse? I had to kill the mouse?
<v Speaker 3>How did you think that broke it?
<v Speaker 5>Snack or something.
<v Speaker 3>Did you try to stab it?
<v Speaker 2>Probably Jennifer had killed every living being in her small trailer,
<v Speaker 2>her two defenseless girls, three tiny Pomeranians, two of them puppies,
<v Speaker 2>and even the pet mouse. And it wasn't just the
<v Speaker 2>dog she had to chase down to finish the job.
<v Speaker 2>Despite their youngest age, her two daughters knew exactly what
<v Speaker 2>was going to happen, and they tried to get away.
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing I can say to prepare you for this
<v Speaker 2>next part. It is absolutely heartbreaking.
<v Speaker 9>Just to go back to so I can clarify Alexa
<v Speaker 9>was killed in her bedroom? Was she killed right where
<v Speaker 9>we found her on the floor that little makeshift bent
<v Speaker 9>you as we're sleeping on, okay? And then when while
<v Speaker 9>Alexa was being killed, Ashley ran out of the room
<v Speaker 9>and she ran into the kitchen, run on the table
<v Speaker 9>and she was higher on the table and I pulled
<v Speaker 9>her out. And did you did you stay at her
<v Speaker 9>under the table at all? Did you try it like
<v Speaker 9>to take come out, come out or or how did
<v Speaker 9>you get her out rounder of the table?
<v Speaker 5>Just grabbed her round and pulled her out?
<v Speaker 9>I think you grab her am and pulled her out
<v Speaker 9>because there's a little bit of bloo under the table,
<v Speaker 9>So we're wondering did she get stay out her there
<v Speaker 9>at all?
<v Speaker 5>She got stayed in the bedroom first, and Lexa pushed
<v Speaker 5>me out and pushed her out of the way. And
<v Speaker 5>then I did to Alexa so.
<v Speaker 8>Bleeding okay, So ash he was bleeding past. Why there's
<v Speaker 8>little bit of blood on the table m hm okay.
<v Speaker 9>So then once you get Ashley, I'm gonna at the
<v Speaker 9>table and you carry your back to the bedroom mm hm.
<v Speaker 8>And you laid did she fight more? Did you? Did
<v Speaker 8>you lay her down right next to Alesa and that's
<v Speaker 8>where she died?
<v Speaker 5>Yes?
<v Speaker 8>Okay? And did she try to get back up and
<v Speaker 8>run again?
<v Speaker 3>Yes? Okay?
<v Speaker 1>All right.
<v Speaker 2>Throughout this part of the interview, Jennifer with a blanket
<v Speaker 2>over her shoulders, is using it to cover her face.
<v Speaker 2>She's hunched over in her chair, rocking back and fourth.
<v Speaker 8>Did she say anything to you, Jennifer, I know its sorry.
<v Speaker 8>Did do you call her well, we don't okay. Was
<v Speaker 8>she crying?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?
<v Speaker 8>What was she saying?
<v Speaker 6>What was she saying?
<v Speaker 5>No, no, Mama, don't do it, mom? Just scar as fuck?
<v Speaker 3>Okay?
<v Speaker 5>All right, okay?
<v Speaker 8>And how many times do you think he stabbed her?
<v Speaker 1>I have no it.
<v Speaker 3>I don't want to know.
<v Speaker 8>Okay, do you remember how many times you Stabbedshley?
<v Speaker 3>No?
<v Speaker 8>I'm sorry Alsa, No, I don't want to know that either.
<v Speaker 3>Okay.
<v Speaker 6>Do you remember when when he actually was stabbed the
<v Speaker 6>first time of viting? Throw out of the room.
<v Speaker 8>Where was she stabbed in the neck the deep wound
<v Speaker 8>or was.
<v Speaker 6>The skin on dr I don't know.
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer had used four different large kitchen knives to slay
<v Speaker 2>everyone in the trailer that morning. She ended her daughter's
<v Speaker 2>lives by stabbing them each multiple times in the neck area,
<v Speaker 2>effectively severing their windpipes as well as important arteries besides
<v Speaker 2>the neck wounds, Though there were no defensive injuries, these
<v Speaker 2>poor little girls could even begin to fight off their mother.
<v Speaker 2>All they could do was run and try to find
<v Speaker 2>a hiding spot, But even then Jennifer chased them down.
<v Speaker 8>Oh have you used narcotics in the past? Like long
<v Speaker 8>your history? Did you use any kind of drugs?
<v Speaker 5>Nothing? Long term abuse of anything?
<v Speaker 11>Well?
<v Speaker 8>What did you use?
<v Speaker 6>I smoked pot a.
<v Speaker 5>Few times, have done ASCID a few times?
<v Speaker 8>Asked how long would you do AD?
<v Speaker 5>When I was a teenager?
<v Speaker 8>Okay, But recently have you been using any kind of
<v Speaker 8>street drugs?
<v Speaker 6>Nothing whatsoever, any kind of prescription drugs? Okay?
<v Speaker 9>And have you ever seen anybody about any kind of
<v Speaker 9>problems in your head? If you talked to anybody about it,
<v Speaker 9>go see a doctor or not.
<v Speaker 5>A couple of strengths.
<v Speaker 13>When I was a kid with this, because I was
<v Speaker 13>getting arrested and stuff, my mama would stopped.
<v Speaker 6>Taking me and ship.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, does your mama have some problems my mom?
<v Speaker 5>My mom has to turn on chizophrenic, manic depressive.
<v Speaker 2>Through interview Uewing, both Jennifer and her sister Lauren, detectives
<v Speaker 2>were beginning to put the pieces together. Jennifer had been
<v Speaker 2>on a slow path to mental ruin. She had self awareness,
<v Speaker 2>and she knew she was displaying many of the same
<v Speaker 2>odd behaviors her mother had shown as her mental health declined.
<v Speaker 2>This wasn't her first rodeo. Jennifer knew how these things eroded.
<v Speaker 2>She felt herself losing grip on reality, and she had
<v Speaker 2>been desperately trying to hide it. Twenty one year old
<v Speaker 2>Lauren Kookla loved her family. Her biggest concern was making
<v Speaker 2>sure all of the children were safe, well fed, and loved.
<v Speaker 2>To make this kind of life a reality for her
<v Speaker 2>two nieces, eight year old Alexa and five year old Ashley.
<v Speaker 2>This often meant cleaning up her sister's messes. Her oldest sister, Jennifer,
<v Speaker 2>was a functioning alcoholic with constant money problems, and so
<v Speaker 2>those are the issues Lauren often helped to address. These
<v Speaker 2>surface issues paled in comparison to the turmoil happening in
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer's mind. The Kukla family was no stranger to mental illness,
<v Speaker 2>which somewhat blinded Lauren to her sister's worsening mental state.
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, Jennifer was trying to hide her
<v Speaker 2>mental illness. She often became nervous after saying what she
<v Speaker 2>perceived to be the wrong thing, which was basically anything
<v Speaker 2>that might indicate she was losing her mind. Lauren was
<v Speaker 2>so concerned with these surface level issues that Jennifer's feeble
<v Speaker 2>attempts to hide what was actually going on worked. Things
<v Speaker 2>got quietly worse until February four, two thousand and seven,
<v Speaker 2>when Jennifer murdered her two little girls. Apparently, Jennifer's paranoia
<v Speaker 2>and hallucinations reached a peak that weekend, She told psychiatrists
<v Speaker 2>that voices were telling her that if she didn't kill
<v Speaker 2>her children, they'd be kidnapped, sexually abused, tortured, murdered, and
<v Speaker 2>then eaten. In her distorted mind, Jennifer thought slitting their
<v Speaker 2>throats and ending at all quickly was an act of compassion.
<v Speaker 2>It was, from her perspective, the only way she could
<v Speaker 2>save them.
<v Speaker 3>Have you heard from the voices since and this happened?
<v Speaker 13>Is that all morning after it happened, I stayed in
<v Speaker 13>the house and I was like I couldn't leave it.
<v Speaker 13>It was like I was sitting there waiting for somebody
<v Speaker 13>to come pick me up to take me straight to house.
<v Speaker 5>And it was like, no big deal. It was like
<v Speaker 5>it was normal.
<v Speaker 8>So were you there all day?
<v Speaker 7>Then?
<v Speaker 6>Did you leave at any point?
<v Speaker 5>So go to my car to get to your buttycle?
<v Speaker 5>Right backing up, that was it was.
<v Speaker 3>Your door I left open all day.
<v Speaker 13>Why I don't know. It was like freaking I shut
<v Speaker 13>it then the freaking demons would come faster.
<v Speaker 5>So crap, mm hmmm.
<v Speaker 3>Where were you at during the day, sitting in the goat?
<v Speaker 3>I think did you go back in the bedroom at all?
<v Speaker 5>And a couple of times, but couldn't stay back there.
<v Speaker 3>What did you do?
<v Speaker 6>There's what's better? She goes, you're better with the girls.
<v Speaker 5>Oh, and I went back and the after him, and
<v Speaker 5>they had to change my clothes and freaking y'all cleaned up.
<v Speaker 5>For some fucked up reason was that your water wasn't
<v Speaker 5>running like the water like I don't want to toilet,
<v Speaker 5>you know the ok yeah, it was fun.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know. Okay, when you say you got changed,
<v Speaker 3>what were you wearing that night? And then warm?
<v Speaker 5>I don't remember dance my sister.
<v Speaker 2>So after killing her children and all of the pets,
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer stayed in the house with their dead bodies all day.
<v Speaker 2>She paced around until the voices apparently told her to
<v Speaker 2>clean it up with no running water, though, she decided
<v Speaker 2>to take the lid off the toilet tank and use
<v Speaker 2>the water in there to rinse off before replacing her
<v Speaker 2>bloodied clothes with random things scavenged from piles of laundry.
<v Speaker 2>When Lauren came upon the carnage and saw her sister
<v Speaker 2>dressed like a quote hobo, she suddenly realized what had
<v Speaker 2>been happening this whole time. At that moment, Lauren didn't
<v Speaker 2>see her sister. She saw her mother. Jennifer had become
<v Speaker 2>the splitting image of her mother, so her ashes.
<v Speaker 10>Didn't that day a day at an evening, it'd surprised
<v Speaker 10>to be the union your mom any.
<v Speaker 6>Acted similar to that. I mean, it was.
<v Speaker 1>It was surprising, but it was more interesting because when
<v Speaker 1>my mom would do I mean, she wouldn't do stuff
<v Speaker 1>exactly like that.
<v Speaker 5>She never told me.
<v Speaker 1>She would just tell me about what happening, right, I mean,
<v Speaker 1>because my mom used to say, I'm I'm a murder.
<v Speaker 7>Tell me.
<v Speaker 1>Jenny told me one time that she my mom pulled
<v Speaker 1>over the car right over on our real planking her speedway,
<v Speaker 1>and she said, I'm gonna drama center in my piss.
<v Speaker 1>You know, when she pulled, she pulled her vants down
<v Speaker 1>and she was gonna drown herself in the bed. Don't
<v Speaker 1>even My mom was moliple suicide at times, you know
<v Speaker 1>what I'm saying. Not in front of me, But Jenny said,
<v Speaker 1>you guys are lucky you never had it as bad
<v Speaker 1>as we did. I guess she chased those out of
<v Speaker 1>the backyard with a butcher knife one time, and like
<v Speaker 1>all this stuff, I don't know, I don't remember too young.
<v Speaker 1>I guess, all right, shout it out.
<v Speaker 5>I have no idea, but.
<v Speaker 1>She would tell me stuff about make Keith Richards and
<v Speaker 1>when we lost our house, how Keith Richards was gonna
<v Speaker 1>buy it and she was gonna get married to him.
<v Speaker 1>She told me about this guy who was like a
<v Speaker 1>healer and like you know, like she worked.
<v Speaker 5>He when my grandma was sick of paying for it.
<v Speaker 3>When did your your day go to prison?
<v Speaker 5>I was seven person.
<v Speaker 3>He's still in prison for that.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, three years.
<v Speaker 6>That was your natural father.
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I'm sorry, I thought she said the other day
<v Speaker 3>that he was still in person. I wish when's the
<v Speaker 3>last thing that you can take with him?
<v Speaker 5>Called me that night, Sunday night, after you heard. He
<v Speaker 5>lives right. Me and my husband are separated. Like I said,
<v Speaker 5>he lives three kindos away from my husband's mom.
<v Speaker 2>I remember, looking back at all the strange things Jennifer
<v Speaker 2>had said and done made so much more sense when
<v Speaker 2>compared to her mother's decline. But hindsight is twenty twenty.
<v Speaker 2>Let's rewind back to when Jennifer became paranoid that the
<v Speaker 2>two people who helped clean up her trailer were going
<v Speaker 2>to call CPS and turn her in.
<v Speaker 8>She said, I mean she was.
<v Speaker 1>She talked, I guess briefly to Miss Jessica Carl about
<v Speaker 1>how she she liked Dean Koum's books and.
<v Speaker 5>Stuff like that, different kinds of like horns, suspense, stuff
<v Speaker 5>like that, and she said that later, is it right,
<v Speaker 5>she said that she.
<v Speaker 1>She didn't She wishes she didn't say that because she
<v Speaker 1>got those girls probably thinks, or that guy, that girl
<v Speaker 1>probably thinks that she's not for liking those.
<v Speaker 6>Kinds of books. I mean, that's everything think.
<v Speaker 1>But because she's like tell them that, you know, I
<v Speaker 1>expect to read those type of books, you know, the
<v Speaker 1>interest pea bla, blah blah.
<v Speaker 6>And then she said.
<v Speaker 1>To me that she's starting not to remember, but starting
<v Speaker 1>to understand why she was drinking, why she would have
<v Speaker 1>had a drinking problem.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, she said, she understands why she has a drinking problem.
<v Speaker 2>For us, the people on the outside, it's not at
<v Speaker 2>all surprising that Jennifer suffered from addiction. But in Jennifer's mind,
<v Speaker 2>this all stemmed from her hypnosis as a teenager.
<v Speaker 5>But it's in some way, hello, hi, in some way
<v Speaker 5>connected to the hypnotism. What she didn't that information to me?
<v Speaker 8>She said that she told al that.
<v Speaker 1>She knew biker crews like Vigilies or you know that.
<v Speaker 1>She didn't say Vigulines, but that family looked like I've
<v Speaker 1>ever heard of that life. So by stuff like that
<v Speaker 1>that she was affiliating with them. She said that Jim Real,
<v Speaker 1>which I know is a bossed Djenko and was also
<v Speaker 1>the owner of part owner of TJ's.
<v Speaker 5>Were she worked at a golf course for a couple
<v Speaker 5>of years, senter and stuff like that.
<v Speaker 3>She said that he.
<v Speaker 1>She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if
<v Speaker 1>she if she would go there, and if she was
<v Speaker 1>actually doing the work that you know that they She
<v Speaker 1>told me she was like a bartender and a cook
<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.
<v Speaker 5>She's thinking that she was very watchington, thinking she was
<v Speaker 5>doing that kind of work when really she was doing
<v Speaker 5>something else.
<v Speaker 1>She says that that was like a lapse in her brain.
<v Speaker 1>She doesn't understand what happened at that time in her life.
<v Speaker 1>She asked me if I remembered her.
<v Speaker 3>This was all Sara Ray.
<v Speaker 5>She said, I think Lauren that I used to kill people,
<v Speaker 5>and I said I really.
<v Speaker 6>I literally wrote it off.
<v Speaker 1>As her just being either drunk or me not recognizing
<v Speaker 1>it as an issue. Like she was saying it almost
<v Speaker 1>not in a joking manner, but not to where it's like, Lauren,
<v Speaker 1>I think I used to kill people. You need to,
<v Speaker 1>you know, help me or something. You know what, I
<v Speaker 1>think she used to kill people.
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, Jenny, you know what are you where are
<v Speaker 5>you getting this one? And she's like, I don't know.
<v Speaker 5>I just she's like, I don't understand.
<v Speaker 6>I don't remember. I don't remember.
<v Speaker 1>And then she said she said, like I don't remember
<v Speaker 1>that like three times, you know, in a row. And
<v Speaker 1>then she said I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny,
<v Speaker 1>you know, and I remember growing up like she used
<v Speaker 1>to have like I know, it sounds stupid, but she
<v Speaker 1>used to do like candle things in her room and
<v Speaker 1>like she walk around on the can like you know
<v Speaker 1>what I'm saying, like weird.
<v Speaker 6>Shit like that like sands almost type yeah, like.
<v Speaker 1>The sayans er like a demonic something or other. But
<v Speaker 1>I mean she at that time, I know that she
<v Speaker 1>had had some experiences with drugs. I don't know what
<v Speaker 1>because I was nine years younger, but I know, I mean,
<v Speaker 1>my mom boss a pot in the house. She found
<v Speaker 1>plants and she threw them against the wall because they
<v Speaker 1>were all in the base of the kids. Me and
<v Speaker 1>my old my Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while.
<v Speaker 1>And then when my dad started raping the kids, like
<v Speaker 1>right before Jenny turned like ten or something, twelve, I
<v Speaker 1>don't know, he made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So
<v Speaker 1>it was almost like there, like I mean they were
<v Speaker 1>they weren't finished. There was tile on the floor, but
<v Speaker 1>it was like they were drywall and stuff like that.
<v Speaker 1>They had separate rooms, and Lizzie was in this room,
<v Speaker 1>Joey was in the middle, and then Jenny was at
<v Speaker 1>the far end, and she used to come and seek
<v Speaker 1>boys and stuff like that, and they do I mean
<v Speaker 1>Matt message, the one that Lizzie is Lizzie's fiance.
<v Speaker 5>Now, I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.
<v Speaker 6>I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom.
<v Speaker 1>Because they would tellt me to shut up, and they
<v Speaker 1>tell me not to come downstairs all the time because
<v Speaker 1>there was.
<v Speaker 5>There was stuff under this.
<v Speaker 1>I think they were trying to keep me away from
<v Speaker 1>whatever they were doing. There was stuff under the stairs.
<v Speaker 1>There was fixed spiders, there was go sweat uver, you
<v Speaker 1>know what I'm.
<v Speaker 5>Saying, and I literally I really believed that they, even.
<v Speaker 1>If they weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves,
<v Speaker 1>you know what I mean, to where they thought that
<v Speaker 1>this was real.
<v Speaker 5>You know, or at least maybe she'd lived with that.
<v Speaker 3>She used to couch like.
<v Speaker 1>She remember the time she cut slayer into her arm,
<v Speaker 1>and I was like, is that me out with a
<v Speaker 1>band and she was into heavy metal and she's like no,
<v Speaker 1>and she's like, I didn't even do that, you know.
<v Speaker 1>And I can remember Rember her, not not that time,
<v Speaker 1>but I remember her catting her legs and cutting her
<v Speaker 1>arms and stuff like that, and my mom would send
<v Speaker 1>her to the counselor.
<v Speaker 6>But because my mom was.
<v Speaker 1>Emotionally disturbed as well, and she had her own bipolar ecaust,
<v Speaker 1>her friend here or whatever, she would take them out
<v Speaker 1>because in her mind, counselors and stuff like that were bad.
<v Speaker 1>You know, police were good, always, police were good. The
<v Speaker 1>counselors were bad. Teachers were bad. They didn't know what
<v Speaker 1>they were teaching you, They didn't know what they you know,
<v Speaker 1>all this stuff. And she would say that they're gathering
<v Speaker 1>information on us. They want they want us, they want us,
<v Speaker 1>they want us. She would say that we're like Christ's bloodline.
<v Speaker 1>She knew Christ's descendants where you know, all this stuff,
<v Speaker 1>and that's what I had to go around.
<v Speaker 6>I mean, I got past it.
<v Speaker 8>I'm working.
<v Speaker 6>I mean, I worked through it.
<v Speaker 5>I understand that she had an illness, but I know
<v Speaker 5>it sounds really bad on my part. Growing up with
<v Speaker 5>my mom the way that she was, you.
<v Speaker 3>Were used to that kind.
<v Speaker 6>I was used to it, and I had never thought
<v Speaker 6>that she would hurt anybody because my mom, because you'd
<v Speaker 6>been exposed.
<v Speaker 5>Right and right, it didn't at all.
<v Speaker 1>And I mean, I've been working through that. But at
<v Speaker 1>the same time, I my foster was like, how would
<v Speaker 1>you know that that she was gonna, you know, hurt anybody?
<v Speaker 5>And She's like, she said that anything that Jenny could
<v Speaker 5>have said.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if we roll right off my back at
<v Speaker 1>the stake, that I amn't right now, so it did,
<v Speaker 1>you know what I'm saying.
<v Speaker 5>And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for
<v Speaker 5>me to get past my past with my mom. Hard
<v Speaker 5>for me to even say that.
<v Speaker 1>I can't believe what she was telling me about knowing
<v Speaker 1>Keith Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was
<v Speaker 1>my mom when I.
<v Speaker 5>Was conditioned might entell your life to believe that she
<v Speaker 5>was telling me the true. Sure, that's my mom, you know.
<v Speaker 5>So when Jenny tells me this stuff, I think.
<v Speaker 1>What if Mom, I don't I don't want to say
<v Speaker 1>that I'm I don't want to feel like you or
<v Speaker 1>you guys think that I'm crazy.
<v Speaker 5>But what if you know, maybe this is you know,
<v Speaker 5>my mom, not my mom telling her.
<v Speaker 1>This stuff, but like maybe something my mom said it
<v Speaker 1>was true. Maybe you know, we are she was special
<v Speaker 1>or Jenny is special. That's why she tried to protect
<v Speaker 1>her before, you.
<v Speaker 6>Know, And that's why my mom had to be put
<v Speaker 6>on meds.
<v Speaker 1>Was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny
<v Speaker 1>would know the same thing or be able to do
<v Speaker 1>the same thing or whatever. I don't know, you know
<v Speaker 1>what I'm saying. And I thought it was some kind
<v Speaker 1>of religious believe that they both shared or something.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.
<v Speaker 1>I can problem, but it's in some way hell of high,
<v Speaker 1>in some way connected to the hypnotism.
<v Speaker 3>What does she think hypnotizement?
<v Speaker 5>She didn't that information to me. She said that she
<v Speaker 5>told all that she knew biker crews like Virgilies or
<v Speaker 5>you know, she did that.
<v Speaker 1>She didn't say Vigeline's, but the family looked like for
<v Speaker 1>I've ever heard in her life so like stuff.
<v Speaker 5>Like that that she was affiliating with them.
<v Speaker 1>She said that Jim Reel, which I know is a
<v Speaker 1>bossed that Didjenko and was also the owner of her
<v Speaker 1>part owner of TJ's where she worked at.
<v Speaker 5>A golf course for a couple of years, you know,
<v Speaker 5>seeing her and stuff like that.
<v Speaker 4>She said that he.
<v Speaker 1>She wasn't sure if she ever really worked there, if
<v Speaker 1>she if she would go there, and if she was
<v Speaker 1>actually doing the work that you know that they She
<v Speaker 1>told me she was like a bartender and a cook
<v Speaker 1>and stuff like that, but she doesn't remember actually doing it.
<v Speaker 1>She's thinking that she was very watchington, thinking she was
<v Speaker 1>doing that kind of work when really she was doing
<v Speaker 1>something else. She said that was like a lapse in
<v Speaker 1>her brain. She doesn't understand what happened at that time
<v Speaker 1>in her life.
<v Speaker 5>She asked me if I remembered her this was all
<v Speaker 5>starry night. She she said, I think, Lauren, that I
<v Speaker 5>used to kill people, And I said I really.
<v Speaker 6>I literally wrote it off.
<v Speaker 1>As her just being either drunk or me not recognizing
<v Speaker 1>it as an issue, like she was saying it almost
<v Speaker 1>not in a joking manner.
<v Speaker 6>But.
<v Speaker 5>Not to where it's like, Lauren, I think I used
<v Speaker 5>to kill people. You need to, you know, help me
<v Speaker 5>or something. You know what she was, and I think
<v Speaker 5>she used to kill people. I'm like, Jenny, you know,
<v Speaker 5>what are you where are you getting this from? And
<v Speaker 5>she's like, I don't know. I just she's like, I
<v Speaker 5>don't understand.
<v Speaker 6>I don't remember. I don't remember.
<v Speaker 1>And then she said, she said, like I don't remember
<v Speaker 1>that like three times, you know, in a row. And
<v Speaker 1>then she said, I think I ate them. And I said, Jenny,
<v Speaker 1>you know, and I remember growing up like she used
<v Speaker 1>to have like I know it sounds stupid, but she
<v Speaker 1>used to do like candle things in her room and
<v Speaker 1>like she walk around the camp like you know what
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying, like mirrd shit like that.
<v Speaker 6>Like sands almost type yeah, like a sing as or.
<v Speaker 1>Like a demonic something or other. But I mean she
<v Speaker 1>at that time, I know that she had had some
<v Speaker 1>experiences with drugs. I don't know what because I was
<v Speaker 1>nine years younger, but I know, I mean my mom
<v Speaker 1>boss a pot in the house. She found plants and
<v Speaker 1>she threw them against the wall because they were all
<v Speaker 1>in the basement. The kids, me and my old my
<v Speaker 1>Lizzie shared room upstairs for a while. And then when
<v Speaker 1>my dad started raping the kids, like right before Jenny
<v Speaker 1>turned like ten or something, twelve, I don't know, he
<v Speaker 1>made the bedrooms downstairs for them. So it was almost
<v Speaker 1>like they're like, I mean they were they weren't finished.
<v Speaker 1>There was tile on the floor, but it was like
<v Speaker 1>they were drywall and stuff like that. They had separate rooms,
<v Speaker 1>and Lizzie was in this room, Joey was in the middle,
<v Speaker 1>and then Jenny was at the fire end. And she
<v Speaker 1>used to come and seek boys and stuff like that,
<v Speaker 1>and they do I mean Matt Vessige, the one that
<v Speaker 1>is Lizzie's fiance now.
<v Speaker 5>And like I would go downstairs and they'd be doing whatever.
<v Speaker 1>I didn't know, and I wouldn't tell my mom because
<v Speaker 1>they would tell me to shut up, and they tell
<v Speaker 1>me not to come downstairs all the time because there
<v Speaker 1>was there was stuff under I think they were trying
<v Speaker 1>to keep me away from whatever they were doing. There
<v Speaker 1>was stuff under the stairs. There was fixed spiders, there
<v Speaker 1>was go sweat up you know what I'm saying. And
<v Speaker 1>I literally I really believe that they even if they
<v Speaker 1>weren't brainwashed, that they had done something to themselves, you
<v Speaker 1>know what I mean to where they thought that this
<v Speaker 1>was real, you know, or at least maybe she'd live
<v Speaker 1>with that. She used to cut, like she remember one
<v Speaker 1>time she cut slayer into her arm and I was like,
<v Speaker 1>is that me out with a band? And she was
<v Speaker 1>into heavy metal and she's like no, and she's like,
<v Speaker 1>I didn't even do this, you know. And I can
<v Speaker 1>remember her not that time, but.
<v Speaker 6>I remember her cutting her legs and cutting her arms.
<v Speaker 5>And stuff like that, and my mom would send her
<v Speaker 5>to the counselor.
<v Speaker 1>But because my mom was emotionally disturbed as well, and
<v Speaker 1>she had her own bipolar schizophone air or whatever, she
<v Speaker 1>would take them out because in her mind, counselors and
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that were bad. You know, police were good, always,
<v Speaker 1>please were good. The counselors were bad. Teachers were bad.
<v Speaker 1>They didn't know what they were teaching you. They didn't
<v Speaker 1>know what they you know, all this stuff. And she
<v Speaker 1>would say that they're gathering information on us. They want
<v Speaker 1>they want us, they want us, they want us. She
<v Speaker 1>would say that we're like Christ's bloodline. She knew Christ's
<v Speaker 1>descendants where you know, all this stuff, and that's what
<v Speaker 1>I had to go around. I mean, I got pasted it.
<v Speaker 5>I'm working. I mean, I worked through it. I understand
<v Speaker 5>that she had an illness.
<v Speaker 1>But.
<v Speaker 5>I know it sounds really bad on my part, But
<v Speaker 5>growing up with my mom the way that she was.
<v Speaker 6>You were used to that.
<v Speaker 5>I was used to it, and I'd never thought that
<v Speaker 5>she would hurt anybody because my mom.
<v Speaker 6>Never alarmed me. Because you've been explosed right and.
<v Speaker 5>Right, it didn't at all. And I mean, I've been
<v Speaker 5>working through that. But at the same time, I mean my.
<v Speaker 1>Fast was like, how would you know that she was gonna,
<v Speaker 1>you know, hurt anybody? And She's like, she said that
<v Speaker 1>anything that Jenny could have said. I mean, if we
<v Speaker 1>grow right off my back at the state that I
<v Speaker 1>amn't right now, so it did, you know what I'm saying.
<v Speaker 5>And then she started saying, you know, it's hard for
<v Speaker 5>me to get past my past.
<v Speaker 1>With my mom for me to even say that, I
<v Speaker 1>can't believe what she was telling me about knowing Keith
<v Speaker 1>Richards and the Beatles and whatever, because that was my
<v Speaker 1>mom when I was conditioned my entire her life to
<v Speaker 1>believe that she was telling me the true.
<v Speaker 6>Sure, that's my mom, you know.
<v Speaker 5>So when Jenny tells me this stuff.
<v Speaker 1>I think, what if Mom, I don't I don't want
<v Speaker 1>to say that I'm I don't want to feel like
<v Speaker 1>you or you guys think that I'm crazy. But what
<v Speaker 1>if you know, maybe this is you know, my mom,
<v Speaker 1>not my mom telling her this stuff. But like maybe
<v Speaker 1>something my mom said it us true. Maybe you know
<v Speaker 1>we are She was special or Jenny is special. That's
<v Speaker 1>why she tried to protect her before, you know, And
<v Speaker 1>that's why my mom had to be put on METS.
<v Speaker 1>Was because she knew something and then she knew Jenny
<v Speaker 1>would know the same thing or be able to do
<v Speaker 1>the same thing or whatever.
<v Speaker 5>I don't know, you know what I'm saying. And I
<v Speaker 5>thought it was some kind of religious belief that they
<v Speaker 5>both shared or something.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know.
<v Speaker 2>Their mother's unchecked mental illness had set the stage. Jennifer's
<v Speaker 2>life was a perfect storm, and she knew.
<v Speaker 3>It well, she need to know anything else you can
<v Speaker 3>think of. It bought a soul incident, and so now
<v Speaker 3>we should have heard you.
<v Speaker 13>She lived in my mom's moth, she cycle mixture, even
<v Speaker 13>due to nobody else don't want it.
<v Speaker 5>And there it is.
<v Speaker 2>Hearing these final words is haunting her admission. I should
<v Speaker 2>have never had kids. It's not just a regret, it's
<v Speaker 2>the very moment of Jennifer's realization about the generational cycle
<v Speaker 2>of trauma and mental illness. She saw an experience the
<v Speaker 2>fallout of her own mother's struggle, lived through it, and
<v Speaker 2>yet found herself walking down a similar path, trapped by
<v Speaker 2>the very symptoms she once feared. Jennifer was raised by
<v Speaker 2>someone incapable of loving, protecting, and caring for her in
<v Speaker 2>the way every child deserves. This was a parent who
<v Speaker 2>not only failed to protect, but often directly exposed them
<v Speaker 2>to traumatic experiences. After living through that trauma, this same
<v Speaker 2>parent deterred her children from seeking mental health services. Perhaps
<v Speaker 2>Jennifer was set up to fail from the very start.
<v Speaker 2>In September of two thousand and seven, about seven months
<v Speaker 2>after the tragic murder's, thirty year old Jennifer Kukla went
<v Speaker 2>to trial for two counts of first degree murder. Three
<v Speaker 2>separate psychologists testified on her behalf, stating that she was
<v Speaker 2>legally insane at the time of the killings and therefore
<v Speaker 2>not criminally responsible. They felt she should be found guilty
<v Speaker 2>by reason of insanity and placed in a psychiatric facility.
<v Speaker 2>The jury, though, didn't buy it. They cited the feeble
<v Speaker 2>attempt at suicide, the inconsistencies in Jennifer's police interview compared
<v Speaker 2>to her psych interviews, and even witnessed testimony from her
<v Speaker 2>employer who remembered Jennifer saying she could just kill her
<v Speaker 2>kids during a conversation about being late for work because
<v Speaker 2>of them. To top it off, even if Jennifer had
<v Speaker 2>been suffering an acute psychotic episode that day, under Michigan law,
<v Speaker 2>if that episode is triggered by drinking alcohol, it's not
<v Speaker 2>a defense. The jury rendered a guilty verdict while also
<v Speaker 2>acknowledging the obvious mental illness. She was sentenced to life
<v Speaker 2>in prison without the possibility of parole, but with the
<v Speaker 2>promise that she would receive at least some mental health care.
<v Speaker 2>The police officers who responded to the gruesome scene, we'll
<v Speaker 2>never get the image out of their heads. Jennifer asked
<v Speaker 2>for her brain to be erased, and I'm sure those
<v Speaker 2>officers wish for the very same thing. They remember seeing
<v Speaker 2>the two little girls laying side by side in their
<v Speaker 2>small bedroom surrounded by their toys, their books, their artwork,
<v Speaker 2>and even photos of them smiling with their mom. One
<v Speaker 2>deputy said this, you can only imagine their lifestyle. You
<v Speaker 2>could see that they didn't have much, but what they
<v Speaker 2>did have they seemed to appreciate. They seemed like they
<v Speaker 2>were happy, cute girls. You have to try hard not
<v Speaker 2>to think about it rationally. That was an irrational act.
<v Speaker 3>You never let it go.
<v Speaker 2>All right, I'll tell you one little thing. The show
<v Speaker 2>that's coming up is called this doesn't happen to people
<v Speaker 2>like me. I know it's a very long title. Anyway,
<v Speaker 2>go find it on Apple and Spotify and subscribe.
<v Speaker 8>Do it now.
<v Speaker 2>I will say one more thing, because I know how
<v Speaker 2>you people operate. Yes, the show will be available on
<v Speaker 2>Plus commercial free of course, and it's gonna be on
<v Speaker 2>every tier as well, so no more mix ups. But
<v Speaker 2>you do help us out tremendously still by subscribing on Apple.
<v Speaker 3>And Spotify. Replicated st