303 | CCPT Mindset (New Series): Examining the Language That Pulls Us from the Model

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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we are diving into a new series,

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and this is a series on mindset.

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But maybe not in the way that you think.

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We've talked a lot about mindset in the past,

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but this is specifically

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rewiring the way that we think.

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About

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helping

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So,

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here's,

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let me,

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let me share my heart with y'all.

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Let's start there.

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I keep hearing so many therapists

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who

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profess to be CCPT or long to be CCPT

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are working

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to become CCPT.

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Ask

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innocent and well intended questions.

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That

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are usually phrased something along the lines of.

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I want to make sure,

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or

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I want to get them to,

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or I want them to feel,

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or I want them to process.

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Something

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along the lines of those sentences.

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And it always kind of gets under my skin a little bit because I think

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that's not aligned at all.

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It's not theoretically adherent.

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We

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can't.

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Speak those things and feel those things

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and think those things without that influencing

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our work.

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And I know that you can say,

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well,

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in practice,

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we can be fully adherent and still ask a question in that way.

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I'm sure that's true.

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But what I am hoping this series will do

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is reveal the invisible

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or maybe internalized beliefs.

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That are holding us back from being fully CCPT.

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And I believe that we're going to have to tackle the under the surface language

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that's almost always about control.

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When we ask questions like that,

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controls at the root of it.

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And or the need to fix.

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And or the desire to create a specific outcome.

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And or that we

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are the savior in the scenario.

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Therapist does save your mentality if you will.

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And all of those things have to be let go

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for CCPT

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to

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really be what CCPT is meant to be.

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So that's kind of the the backstory of why we're diving into this series,

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and I hope that you're tracking with me.

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I hope you're understanding where I'm going with this.

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So each week we're going to

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tackle a phrase or a thought

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that I hear consistently.

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Someone will email me or we'll be talking about

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it in the collective or in the coaching,

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and I think we don't even realize the way that we phrase things,

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but I think that those are maybe invisible or

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internalized beliefs and they get in the way.

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So

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my,

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my argument is.

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That they might be unconscious remnants.

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Look,

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let's be real clear.

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I don't think that these are conscious.

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I don't think we're even cognizant that we're saying these things.

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So I do believe they're unconscious remnants

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of,

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of more directive mindset.

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And it therefore it's showing up in the way that we think and speak,

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even when we're trying to be fully CCPT.

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So,

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I want to make sure that

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we are thinking through our internal framework and our internal mindset.

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And if that is still centered on control

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or shaping.

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We might think that we're CCPT,

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but

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those are not congruent.

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So today we're going to talk about the phrase,

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I just want to help

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da da dot.

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I just want to help this kid

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process trauma.

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I just want to help this kid

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work through anxiety.

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I just wanna help this kid

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not be so aggressive.

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I just wanna help this kid not get kicked out of school,

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that kind of thing.

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And that's the kind of language that undermines the model,

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and I know they're innocent statements,

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but

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that is very clearly directive.

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And these are innocent phrases.

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I get it,

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but I believe that they might reflect

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directive beliefs that are subtly shaping how we're showing up in the playroom

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or maybe even just the way we're thinking about our work.

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So we're gonna kick off this series

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and the goal is

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that we will have a mindset shift

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that allows us to be CCPT.

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Not just do CCPT.

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We talk about that all the time,

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but I think this series will help us understand,

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practically speaking what that looks like.

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So,

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This is not about the techniques of CCPT.

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This is about the way that we think.

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I think often we are using

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the skills

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and the tools and the principles and the tenets and

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all of the things that we've learned of CCPT,

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but I think sometimes we still process

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in directive ways,

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and then that shows up in the language that we use.

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So,

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quick anecdotal story.

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Related aside,

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as you all called me out on saying all the time,

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you guys will send me emails and you're like related

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aside dot dot dot as you like to say,

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I'm like,

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wow,

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do I say that that much?

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I'm sure I do.

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Anyway,

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so I'm gonna start saying anecdotal story.

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Y'all are changing my language right right in front of you.

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OK,

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I'm getting back on point,

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I promise.

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It's,

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it's interesting that you can learn a lot about

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the sense that tends to dominate a person.

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By the phrases that they say.

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They,

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they've done studies on this,

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that all the random facts that I have,

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I know.

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So if you are a visual

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person,

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you are likely to say,

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let me see what I can do,

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for example.

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So you will use a visual

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reference

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in some of your common phrases because you are a visual person.

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If you are an auditory person,

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you might say something like,

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I'll let you know what I hear.

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Because that is more auditory in nature.

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If you're a kinesthetic learner,

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you will reference something about actively doing something,

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so

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I'll take care of it

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or I'll make it happen,

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or let me get my hands dirty

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or something like that.

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So

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they've done studies that you can often figure out what kind of

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bent a person has toward the way that they learn best

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by the phrases that they say.

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And I'm a visual learner and I very much use visual.

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Based references a lot.

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So I've proven it true and of one here.

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Now you're gonna think about that and say,

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oh,

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what kind of learner am I?

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and what phrases do I say?

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And then let me know if it's true.

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Studies say it is,

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but I'm just letting you know my,

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my end of one says it's also true.

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All right.

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We,

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therefore,

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let's get back to the mindset and the CCPT.

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If we are saying things like,

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well,

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I just want to help,

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that's directive.

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So there has to be something there,

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and

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that therefore is incongruent and difficult

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to fully embrace a model if we're saying

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something that would be directive in nature.

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And I,

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I get it.

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This phrase feels harmless.

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It's common,

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it

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is well intended.

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And

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let's go back to the beginning.

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However and whenever you stumbled upon CCPT or as I like to say,

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when CCPT found you.

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It resonated because you truly and genuinely want to help kids.

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We helpers

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When you choose to do this for a living,

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it's because you're wired to help.

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So this makes sense that we would say something like,

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I just wanna help.

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However,

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the CCPT model.

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Makes it very clear

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that

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we do not guide.

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We do not fix

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We don't change.

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We don't have agenda,

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we're not working to achieve something,

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and that's almost always what helping is connected to.

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And almost always,

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our desire to help

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in a CCPT context comes from our own internal discomfort,

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not the child's need.

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Almost always when we wrestle with the model when we

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wrestle with our need to intervene to help to guide,

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to direct,

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to teach,

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to

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bring something up to whatever,

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it's because we are uncomfortable we're uncomfortable with the pressure

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we're getting from parents we're uncomfortable with the process,

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we're uncomfortable with the pace,

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we're uncomfortable with what's happening in session,

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we're uncomfortable with the letters that the

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child is still getting home from school.

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There are

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pressures that make us uncomfortable.

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And then we quote,

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do something.

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That's not being CCPT.

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Yes.

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So,

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I think if we say,

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I just want to help fill in the blank,

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right?

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I want to help with whatever the scenario is.

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I think there are 3 considerations.

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The first,

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It's unconscious need for control.

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We want to do something

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to alleviate our own anxiety or our own sense

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of helplessness or our own sense of doubt,

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whatever the scenario is,

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we want to do something to alleviate that for ourselves.

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Second possibility is

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it is very outcome minded and outcome based,

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which therefore assumes

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we know what the child needs

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and therefore it's all our role to provide it.

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And then the third consideration is,

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it's an inverted focus.

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Because the child becomes the object of intervention.

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Not

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the self-directed,

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00:09:51,780 --> 00:09:53,210
self-actualizing

282
00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:54,969
leader of the process.

283
00:09:57,270 --> 00:10:00,119
I think if I am going to sum all of those three things up,

284
00:10:00,239 --> 00:10:03,369
this is how I would kind of bring that into one sentence.

285
00:10:03,859 --> 00:10:04,729
The second

286
00:10:04,940 --> 00:10:07,349
that we try to help the child feel

287
00:10:07,619 --> 00:10:08,890
or behave differently.

288
00:10:09,750 --> 00:10:12,559
We've taken over and we're not trusting their process anymore.

289
00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:15,000
And we would,

290
00:10:15,030 --> 00:10:16,260
we would never do that.

291
00:10:16,590 --> 00:10:17,979
We would never want to do that.

292
00:10:18,549 --> 00:10:21,909
But that's inevitably what happens if we think about quote helping.

293
00:10:23,330 --> 00:10:24,559
So let's reframe,

294
00:10:24,820 --> 00:10:26,039
which we've been talking about

295
00:10:26,150 --> 00:10:27,450
reframing mindset.

296
00:10:28,250 --> 00:10:29,919
Let's reframe the word help.

297
00:10:30,849 --> 00:10:32,109
So in CCPT

298
00:10:32,419 --> 00:10:35,690
help means create the conditions for growth.

299
00:10:36,859 --> 00:10:37,409
That's it.

300
00:10:38,789 --> 00:10:39,520
Not direct,

301
00:10:39,750 --> 00:10:40,340
not guide,

302
00:10:40,469 --> 00:10:40,989
not teach,

303
00:10:41,150 --> 00:10:41,700
not fix,

304
00:10:41,789 --> 00:10:42,599
not correct,

305
00:10:42,830 --> 00:10:43,479
not anything,

306
00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:45,679
it's create the conditions for growth.

307
00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:47,890
And

308
00:10:48,219 --> 00:10:50,409
the child will naturally self-actualize.

309
00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:52,520
And the way that we do that,

310
00:10:52,650 --> 00:10:53,679
we're fully present.

311
00:10:54,669 --> 00:10:55,960
Attuned and engaged

312
00:10:57,109 --> 00:10:58,830
We use reflective responses.

313
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:00,729
We

314
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,200
offer freedom and autonomy in the playroom.

315
00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:05,659
We trust

316
00:11:05,830 --> 00:11:07,520
the child will self-actualize.

317
00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:11,080
And we communicate to be with attitudes.

318
00:11:12,750 --> 00:11:14,619
Those are the conditions for growth

319
00:11:15,190 --> 00:11:16,590
that is us helping.

320
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:20,619
Because we're being CCPT.

321
00:11:21,330 --> 00:11:21,919
That's it.

322
00:11:22,130 --> 00:11:23,960
We don't insert agenda,

323
00:11:24,210 --> 00:11:24,859
we don't

324
00:11:25,250 --> 00:11:26,320
set goals,

325
00:11:26,530 --> 00:11:27,640
we don't nudge,

326
00:11:28,010 --> 00:11:29,640
we don't gently push.

327
00:11:30,609 --> 00:11:32,409
We create the conditions for growth,

328
00:11:32,489 --> 00:11:33,679
that is how we help.

329
00:11:35,510 --> 00:11:36,059
So,

330
00:11:36,270 --> 00:11:37,830
I just want to throw out a couple of examples

331
00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:42,020
of things that I've either received in emails recently or

332
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:43,710
heard in discussions.

333
00:11:45,690 --> 00:11:47,659
I just want to help him open up,

334
00:11:47,710 --> 00:11:48,369
end quote.

335
00:11:49,599 --> 00:11:51,140
These are examples that therapists have said,

336
00:11:51,210 --> 00:11:51,369
you know,

337
00:11:51,469 --> 00:11:55,320
either in consultation or supervision or things that we're processing.

338
00:11:55,650 --> 00:11:57,349
I just want to help him open up.

339
00:11:58,590 --> 00:11:59,710
This suggests

340
00:12:00,030 --> 00:12:00,429
that

341
00:12:00,549 --> 00:12:01,919
we're trying to control.

342
00:12:02,989 --> 00:12:05,059
How fast the child processes something.

343
00:12:06,409 --> 00:12:07,609
If a child hasn't opened up,

344
00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:08,570
the child's not ready,

345
00:12:08,650 --> 00:12:10,200
willing or able to open up yet.

346
00:12:10,890 --> 00:12:12,000
We can't control that.

347
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,059
Another phrase that I've heard.

348
00:12:15,729 --> 00:12:17,659
I want him or her to feel safe.

349
00:12:19,849 --> 00:12:21,390
Here's an interesting

350
00:12:21,849 --> 00:12:22,590
irony.

351
00:12:23,169 --> 00:12:25,159
We can't make a child feel safe.

352
00:12:26,419 --> 00:12:27,809
We can offer safety.

353
00:12:29,390 --> 00:12:31,179
We can create conditions

354
00:12:31,409 --> 00:12:33,159
that make a child feel safe.

355
00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:35,880
The conditions will allow for safety.

356
00:12:36,409 --> 00:12:37,880
We will offer safety,

357
00:12:38,289 --> 00:12:40,510
but we can't make a child feel safe.

358
00:12:41,090 --> 00:12:44,690
I'm helping him process his anger slash aggression slash

359
00:12:45,489 --> 00:12:46,400
whatever the

360
00:12:47,179 --> 00:12:47,880
issue is.

361
00:12:48,330 --> 00:12:49,960
I'm helping him process.

362
00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:51,849
Well,

363
00:12:51,979 --> 00:12:53,500
who's actually processing Ben?

364
00:12:54,739 --> 00:12:56,130
Guarantee you it's not the child.

365
00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:58,830
Because kids aren't rational.

366
00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:00,750
Kids aren't logical,

367
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,070
they're not intellectual.

368
00:13:02,719 --> 00:13:03,229
So

369
00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,270
if there's any quote processing that's taking place,

370
00:13:06,599 --> 00:13:07,630
it's adult led.

371
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:09,760
Not child-centered.

372
00:13:11,330 --> 00:13:12,130
And then

373
00:13:12,719 --> 00:13:14,929
I wanted him her to realize.

374
00:13:15,909 --> 00:13:16,599
And quote

375
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,299
CCPT is never about providing insight.

376
00:13:21,219 --> 00:13:21,880
It's about

377
00:13:22,090 --> 00:13:22,719
presence.

378
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:27,049
And so the challenge

379
00:13:27,330 --> 00:13:28,239
that I think we,

380
00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:29,520
we need to be mindful of.

381
00:13:31,020 --> 00:13:31,830
The phrase

382
00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:33,859
that is kind of at the heart of all this is,

383
00:13:33,950 --> 00:13:34,599
I wanna help,

384
00:13:34,669 --> 00:13:34,989
right?

385
00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:37,010
So how about if we replace,

386
00:13:37,049 --> 00:13:38,159
I want to help

387
00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:39,400
with,

388
00:13:39,729 --> 00:13:41,000
I want to be with.

389
00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:44,330
Because that's what CCPT is,

390
00:13:44,340 --> 00:13:45,289
it's being with.

391
00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:50,020
So if every time we have the urge to think,

392
00:13:50,219 --> 00:13:50,729
say,

393
00:13:50,979 --> 00:13:51,650
or

394
00:13:52,099 --> 00:13:52,729
even

395
00:13:53,380 --> 00:13:53,849
feel,

396
00:13:54,020 --> 00:13:55,169
I want to help.

397
00:13:56,210 --> 00:13:57,450
If we replace it with,

398
00:13:57,609 --> 00:13:58,880
I want to be with.

399
00:13:59,789 --> 00:14:00,960
That's fully adherent.

400
00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:03,520
So,

401
00:14:03,929 --> 00:14:05,239
food for thought questions.

402
00:14:05,690 --> 00:14:08,559
Where in your practice do you feel the urge to help

403
00:14:08,890 --> 00:14:09,770
most strongly?

404
00:14:11,219 --> 00:14:12,229
That will

405
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:16,950
give you some insight into what you're prone to feel uncomfortable with.

406
00:14:17,929 --> 00:14:20,200
When are you feeling the strongest urge to help,

407
00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:21,309
in what circumstance,

408
00:14:21,369 --> 00:14:22,640
with what kind of kid,

409
00:14:22,929 --> 00:14:24,000
what's going on,

410
00:14:24,369 --> 00:14:24,859
when

411
00:14:25,090 --> 00:14:27,239
and where are you feeling the urge to help?

412
00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:29,169
What

413
00:14:29,349 --> 00:14:30,760
internal discomfort

414
00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:31,979
is fueling it.

415
00:14:33,510 --> 00:14:35,700
Because that's 100% coming from you.

416
00:14:37,229 --> 00:14:39,330
And what would it look like to replace,

417
00:14:39,460 --> 00:14:39,809
quote,

418
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:40,729
helping

419
00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:42,609
with holding space?

420
00:14:44,630 --> 00:14:46,000
And I think I,

421
00:14:46,049 --> 00:14:49,049
I was actually talking to my pastor quite a few months ago now,

422
00:14:49,169 --> 00:14:49,510
but

423
00:14:49,929 --> 00:14:51,400
we were talking about therapy

424
00:14:51,770 --> 00:14:52,380
and

425
00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:54,340
He said

426
00:14:54,739 --> 00:14:56,440
the thing that I've found is,

427
00:14:56,890 --> 00:14:58,409
no matter what kind of therapy you're in,

428
00:14:58,510 --> 00:15:00,400
no matter who your therapist is,

429
00:15:00,809 --> 00:15:02,320
when you choose to

430
00:15:02,929 --> 00:15:03,989
change behavior,

431
00:15:04,289 --> 00:15:05,599
you have to replace

432
00:15:06,250 --> 00:15:07,929
your old behavior with a new behavior,

433
00:15:07,969 --> 00:15:09,919
you can't just stop the old behavior.

434
00:15:11,590 --> 00:15:14,340
And I've pondered that so much since that

435
00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:16,289
conversation and there was more to the conversation,

436
00:15:16,299 --> 00:15:16,659
obviously,

437
00:15:16,780 --> 00:15:17,099
but

438
00:15:17,409 --> 00:15:17,559
the,

439
00:15:17,570 --> 00:15:19,130
the phrase that has stuck with me

440
00:15:19,419 --> 00:15:20,130
was

441
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:21,729
regardless of your therapist,

442
00:15:21,820 --> 00:15:22,760
your therapy,

443
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:24,070
your theoretical model,

444
00:15:24,140 --> 00:15:24,729
whatever,

445
00:15:25,059 --> 00:15:26,729
if a person chooses to change,

446
00:15:26,739 --> 00:15:29,179
they have to replace the old behavior with a new behavior.

447
00:15:29,219 --> 00:15:31,609
They can't just eliminate the old behavior.

448
00:15:33,450 --> 00:15:34,130
And

449
00:15:34,299 --> 00:15:34,799
so,

450
00:15:34,969 --> 00:15:36,479
with that in mind,

451
00:15:37,130 --> 00:15:39,880
if we want to not say something like I want to help.

452
00:15:40,830 --> 00:15:43,109
We have to replace it with something else.

453
00:15:44,109 --> 00:15:45,390
So instead of saying,

454
00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:47,429
I want to help him calm down.

455
00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:51,159
I want him to learn how to self-regulate.

456
00:15:51,570 --> 00:15:53,020
I want to help him

457
00:15:53,489 --> 00:15:55,020
build an emotional vocabulary.

458
00:15:56,460 --> 00:15:57,940
We could replace it with.

459
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:00,469
I'll sit in the pocket

460
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:02,349
while he moves through this feeling.

461
00:16:04,580 --> 00:16:05,359
I'll be with him.

462
00:16:06,349 --> 00:16:07,359
I'll sit right here.

463
00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:08,549
I'll stay with him

464
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,309
while he moves through this.

465
00:16:12,289 --> 00:16:12,960
Or

466
00:16:13,890 --> 00:16:15,239
Instead of,

467
00:16:15,650 --> 00:16:17,559
how can I help her feel more confident?

468
00:16:18,289 --> 00:16:20,320
How can I help her feel less anxious?

469
00:16:20,849 --> 00:16:22,119
How can I help her,

470
00:16:22,570 --> 00:16:23,760
whatever the scenario is.

471
00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:27,380
I'll reflect her feelings

472
00:16:27,650 --> 00:16:29,039
and I'll trust her process.

473
00:16:29,950 --> 00:16:30,919
That's the replacement.

474
00:16:32,030 --> 00:16:32,659
See how,

475
00:16:32,729 --> 00:16:33,530
how can I help?

476
00:16:33,570 --> 00:16:34,280
I want to help.

477
00:16:34,330 --> 00:16:35,280
I need to help.

478
00:16:35,369 --> 00:16:36,320
I should help.

479
00:16:37,739 --> 00:16:38,809
All of a sudden,

480
00:16:39,140 --> 00:16:41,010
there's directive nature there.

481
00:16:42,219 --> 00:16:44,340
We have to replace it with something else,

482
00:16:44,630 --> 00:16:46,020
and wanting to help is not wrong.

483
00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:46,390
Let's,

484
00:16:46,469 --> 00:16:47,940
let's be real clear on that.

485
00:16:48,309 --> 00:16:49,549
We're all wired to help.

486
00:16:50,359 --> 00:16:51,250
And there's

487
00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:54,359
admirable qualities of someone that wants to help.

488
00:16:55,479 --> 00:16:58,690
But in CCPT we have to redefine what that word means.

489
00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:02,570
So start noticing where this phrase is creeping into your thinking.

490
00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:05,300
Recognize it,

491
00:17:05,719 --> 00:17:06,589
admit it.

492
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,189
Offer replacement languages and phrases instead.

493
00:17:11,188 --> 00:17:15,019
There are ways to be aware of this and therefore make adjustments,

494
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:17,828
and that's the goal because our mindset shifts

495
00:17:18,167 --> 00:17:19,698
are often just one

496
00:17:19,909 --> 00:17:21,198
aha moment at a time.

497
00:17:22,239 --> 00:17:22,409
We,

498
00:17:22,489 --> 00:17:24,638
we were made aware of something that we weren't before

499
00:17:24,968 --> 00:17:26,198
and we're able to

500
00:17:26,448 --> 00:17:26,958
shift

501
00:17:27,128 --> 00:17:28,019
the way that we think

502
00:17:28,529 --> 00:17:29,568
and that's the goal of the series,

503
00:17:29,649 --> 00:17:30,918
that's the goal of this episode.

504
00:17:31,328 --> 00:17:33,558
So I hope that that encourages you.

505
00:17:33,688 --> 00:17:37,168
I hope that if you are one that you can

506
00:17:37,168 --> 00:17:39,389
hear yourself in some of the phrases that I've said

507
00:17:39,798 --> 00:17:41,078
that you don't feel guilty,

508
00:17:41,369 --> 00:17:45,168
but you recognize it as an opportunity to be more intentional about the words

509
00:17:45,168 --> 00:17:48,568
and the phrases that you're saying and therefore the things that you're thinking.

510
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:49,910
Because

511
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:51,119
out of the heart,

512
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:52,229
the mouth speaks.

513
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,829
So we need to be really aware of what might be unconsciously

514
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:58,310
in there that's more directive than we think.

515
00:17:59,150 --> 00:18:00,459
In the next episode,

516
00:18:00,540 --> 00:18:01,849
we will unpack

517
00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:04,849
another common mindset related to this,

518
00:18:05,339 --> 00:18:07,369
that we can make a child feel something.

519
00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:08,790
So it was,

520
00:18:08,829 --> 00:18:11,270
I want to help this week and next week it'll be,

521
00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:12,979
I want to make the child feel something.

522
00:18:13,589 --> 00:18:13,869
All right,

523
00:18:14,069 --> 00:18:14,589
love y'all.

524
00:18:14,790 --> 00:18:16,780
I'm really grateful to spend time with you each week.

525
00:18:16,829 --> 00:18:17,650
We'll talk again soon.

526
00:18:17,869 --> 00:18:18,069
Bye.

527
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:22,030
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

528
00:18:22,189 --> 00:18:23,189
Brenna Hicks.

529
00:18:23,310 --> 00:18:25,300
For more episodes and resources,

530
00:18:25,390 --> 00:18:30,130
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.