365: A Deep Wide Receiver Class

00:00:02
Speaker 1: This is the Lab podcast with your host JJ zacher Resa J J. Zacher reson.

00:00:11
Speaker 2: What's up everyone.

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Speaker 3: It's JJ Zachares and the editor in chief at fandle and at number five dot com. And this is episode three hundred and sixty five of the Late Round podcast with many shows that are part of the FanDuel podcast network. Thanks for tuning in. This is a really interesting wide receiver draft class. We have a handful of really good prospects and we have a ton of pretty good prospects who have upside since. Having a good understanding of this rookie group of wide receivers this year is so important to your fantasy teams. I wanted to bring on a special guest, not that the other guests haven't been special on this show earlier this offseason, but today's guest is someone who has a much different approach to the game than I do. And to me, anytime you can find someone who's smart but thinks differently than you do, it makes for a really good conversation. That guest for today's show is Football Guys Sigmund Bloom Sig is a friend of mine and a fellow Yinzer and he has such a unique perspective on football and fantasy football. We chatted about his process for scouting wide receivers, how this class stacks up to recent draft classes, some of his favorite and least favorite players from this group, and so much more. Naturally, I was wearing a pit T shirt, my alma mater, so we even have a little yinser talk here and there throughout the conversation. I know that you guys will enjoy it as much as I did. Now before jumping in, I wanted to send you guys another reminder to check out Racing dot FanDuel dot com. With nearly all the sports world on hold, horse racing is still live and Fandal is doing its part to continue to bring sports fans excitement by offering users a chance to bet on horse racing. User existing Fandel DFS Loggin credentials to gain access to tutorials to learn more about the sport, including understanding how the odds work, the various types of bets, and most importantly, how to win your bets. Watch all of the races live across over three hundred tracks, and fill the void left in your sport orts fandom today. For more details, check out Racing dot Fandel dot com or download the fandel app.

00:02:06
Speaker 2: Eligibility restrictions apply.

00:02:08
Speaker 3: Now sit back, relax, and learn from the great Sigmund Bloom. All right, so let's kick things off by talking about how you Sigmund Bloom prospect for fantasy purposes because you send a tweet out on April seventh that said, and I quote Tyler Johnson will have his champions because of production, but he is pedestrian and NFL wide receiver athleticism terms, and his only plus skill is adjusting slash winning at the catch point, which translates to a limited contributor on Sundays. So I want to ask you how much does data and production matter with your process, if at all. Obviously you know I'm coming from the perspective of someone who looks at data a lot whenever he's looking at this stuff. So I think having a different perspective, or maybe even coming with a completely different angles, is a really good start for this kind of discussion.

00:02:57
Speaker 4: Yes, and I think you're wearing a perfect shirt for this discussion too, because I was wrong about Tyler Boyd, yeah, who was also hyper productive at PITT. We didn't see Tyler Johnson's testing numbers, but they weren't going to be outstanding. I mean, he doesn't look like an elite athlete even in college terms when you watch him. But like Tyler Boyd, he had Tyler Boyd had back at Pitt like all I caught old man game like. He just had these ways to win at the catch point and ways to create separation that weren't based necessarily on physical gifts or even wonderfully refined technique. But Tyler Boyd ended up translating. Now he had a second round grade. And we know we're gonna take any piece of data. If you just used draft position, that's probably going to be about as good as any system or any metric anybody can come up with, because it distills out the NFL and all the works they put into it. But the bottom line is this, and this is where we can get off to a fun discussion. It is that all not not all college production is created equal. And you ask me at the beginning about my process basically, and what I'm trying to do is separate out those reps those plays at the college level that will translate, versus those reps and plays at the college level that are based more on an inferior level of competition, because what we should always be thinking about no matter what position we're watching. But wide receiver is the most fun position to do this with because they're out on an island, so you can really isolate traits, you can isolate skills, you can isolate parts of the game. And what you need to be thinking about while you're watching them is NFL cornerbacks are going to be longer, stronger, faster, better, They're going to create new challenges. And of course these players are going to evolve and they're going to get physically more mature. Their games are going to become more mature. However, I do think that development is at the NFL level is overstated, and especially now I don't know what the new CBA guidelines are on practice time and things like that. Ryan Riddle a long time ago told us that if players get better, it's because of their teammates coaching them about more than coaches. Coaches are more concerned about fitting into the system and your roles and your responsibilities then teaching you how to become a better football player. Anyway, So when you watch Tyler Johnson, I mean you do see him win at the catch point. You do see him sometimes make just the ideal perfect play on the ball in the air, but not in this way where you watch certain players and you just think because of their catcher T Higgins or someone like that, where you're like, how could you stop?

00:05:42
Speaker 1: How can you stop that? How can you stop that? Catch?

00:05:44
Speaker 4: Ratings, cogentration. Tyler Johnsons just make those plays. But when you think about Tyler Johnson against a typical NFL corner, I just don't see how he's going to create separation. I think the other thing we need to think about JJ is how the game is changing, right, And we saw it last year. It was all about separation. Yeah, and a lot of those receivers that went a bit higher than we expected, guys like Deontay Johnson or Michel Hardman or Terry McLaurin, their calling card is separation. And that was not Tyler Johnson's calling card. So I just don't know how much of his production is going to translate to Sundays.

00:06:23
Speaker 3: I think the separation point is very very interesting, especially last year where you had a pretty flat class in terms of there weren't these obvious, obvious studs in the class. If you look back, the guys who did end up failing or or you know, are not on the right trajectory. Jj R, Sega, Whiteside, Nikhil Harry guys who did have those types of issues and they did dominate physically at the college level. So I think that's a good point about how we're sort of looking at these guys moving forward in today's NFL. And the other thing too, just to be clear, you know, Tyler Johnson, it's impossible for guy with his type of production to not pop in a prospect model if you're doing it all analytically. But a huge input in my model is draft capital because again, like you just mentioned, you're looking at how a team feels, and obviously, you know, one team can really skew that data. I kind of feel that way about like Andy Isabella last year. I feel like the Cardinals were like the only team that we're willing to take him in the second round, and that really skews things. But you know, generally speaking, it's a good input to have, and it's a very predictive input to have. So if Tyler Johnson ends up going in the fifth or the sixth round, because a lot of people feel the way that you feel, you know, I'm obviously coming at it more from a data angle. But if that's the case, I'm not gonna like Tyler Johnson anymore. Like it's not like I'm sitting here saying Tyler Johnson is, you know, the wide receiver two in this class, knowing the way that a lot of smart people are feeling about him. So I think that's all very very good information for people to sort of chew on and think about, and hopefully it'll help them as we get through these questions to kind of see where your thought process is. So let's talk about this class in a little bit more detail on the whole. Do you think that this class is a very very good receiving class number one? But are we looking at a situation where this class could be as good as the famous now twenty fourteen class.

00:08:17
Speaker 1: In a best case scenario? Although I think that I anchored.

00:08:21
Speaker 4: Some people yesterday because I was a Blue one hundred, should be out like in a couple of days, hopefully tomorrow, maybe early next week. After going over this class and looking at it closer, there are a lot more players in that top ten to fifteen where you have pieces of an NFL game, but you don't have an integrated game so that they could end up reaching their ceiling, very significant ceilings. You know, the number eight or ten or twelve receiver this year has a much higher ceiling than the typical number eight or ten or twelve receiver. But you mentioned guys like Arthega, Whites and Harry where they had again like incomplete games and some of those things that they provide can never really be of value consistently to a team if they don't have skills and some of the little things that some of the parts of the craft that allow those things to matter. And some of those receivers in the second tier, you know le Viscous, Jnald and Brandon Ayuk and Jalen Rager, these are guys with a wide golf between their ceiling and their floor in the NFL. So that was a little bit disappointing. But if enough of those guys hit, and here's what we pray for, JJ Wright is and you know, even Andy Isabella who you brought up, hopefully ends up proving this out. If the draft is an efficient process, the team that likes the player the most, or one of the teams that likes the player the most, will draft him. And they'll have a good plan for how they can use what that playerlayer does in their offensive scheme, and a role that fits that player, and a plan to develop that player, and hopefully assumption of rational coaching, right, assumption of rational player development. So if these guys end up in the right spot where the team is seeing them accurately and saying, Okay, we know he can do this, we know that these are some things he needs to learn, or these are some traits that we can harness, because that's the thing. It isn't like when we don't see a player do something that he can't, we can't. I think Matt Walden makes this point a lot that you shouldn't assume can't, won't with can't, or doesn't with can't. So we can look for isolated instances, whether it be exhibiting physical.

00:10:39
Speaker 1: Traits or otherwise.

00:10:41
Speaker 4: Showing things, you know, even something simple JJ, I'm sure your model takes account of this in some ways. You know, a player getting better every year in college, you know, stare stepping up in terms of production and efficiency and market share and things like that.

00:10:55
Speaker 1: So we can assume that.

00:10:56
Speaker 4: But I think outside of the top three four where you put Justin Jefferson, because Justin Jefferson's and when you watch him, you can pretty well see what he's going to be in the NFL. A lot of the names in that same range, it's more difficult. So it looks exciting, it's wait and see, but it's a lot more players that on Saturday get you to stand up out of your chair and say wow, but it's not going to be easy to do that on Sunday.

00:11:24
Speaker 3: Well, let's talk about your top guys then. So the consensus right now is Jerry Judy CD Lamb is the top two.

00:11:30
Speaker 2: They kind of are back and forth.

00:11:32
Speaker 3: I'd say the fantasy community probably sides with Lamb a little bit more, just because we're more metrics and production focused. But do you agree that those are the top two guys? And of those two, which one do you prefer?

00:11:44
Speaker 1: Yes, they're the top two guys and they're not.

00:11:46
Speaker 4: I mean, look, we don't have an AJ Green, Julio Jones, Calvin Johnson, Larry Gerald type another pit moment for you. Yes, it had quite the run of receivers back in the oughts.

00:11:58
Speaker 2: They had, they had quite the run of NFL player. I know, they couldn't do anything with.

00:12:02
Speaker 4: The coaching right, so we don't have that true alpha, you know, Hall of Fame ceiling type player. But Judy and Lamb are both wonderful, wonderful. If there wasn't so many offensive tackles in this class, which is such a scarce position, they would both probably be top six, top eight picks because it's so easy to see how they can help offenses. And in the case of Judy, I have Lamb a little head of Judy because I think with Judy, I see Judy as a player like DeAndre Hopkins, without quite the same breathtaking play at the catch point.

00:12:42
Speaker 1: But like Hopkins, you know, Judy isn't a burner.

00:12:45
Speaker 4: He's not massive, he's not so you know, quick and elusive, but he puts it all together. What's really fun about watching Jerry Judy is he always has a precise plan, he executes it exactly on time, and he makes his opponent look silly. He makes it look like there ain't no way when I get to my route stem that you're gonna be able to anticipate what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna be open. So he looks like a perfect fit in a timing based passing offense and an offense. You know, he's got to the Raiders a lot, and that makes a lot of sense for the Raids. Now, if Derek Car's not the quarterback in a year or too, it'll probably be Marcus Mariota, which actually Mariota's kind of robotic, so a timing based offense makes more sense for him to Ceedee Lamb is fun because he can affect the game in all kinds of ways. I compare him to a World War One fighter pilot. When he's going through traffic with the ball. You know, he he finds paths through traffic.

00:13:36
Speaker 2: It makes no sense, It makes no sense.

00:13:39
Speaker 4: Yes, he's so much fun to watch after the catch, and this can be exciting on screens and slants and players where he plays where he gets to be creative, but he can win in the air. He's kind of an unorthodox route runner, but.

00:13:52
Speaker 1: He knows how to create separation. He knows.

00:13:56
Speaker 4: I think that he's one of those players where Oklahoma's offense didn't ask him to run a lot of the classic route tree, but you see him JJ. Since we're gonna get talk wide receivers the whole show. What I like to watch is and you're a little bit younger than me, so you might remember the Gold Age. It's funny that we're all bored now or everybody's looking for things to fill up the sports hole, right. Well, the early days of ESPN, before they had a lot of content that was with you know whatever, Major League Baseball, NBA and so on, they would show things like the World's Strongest Man competition. Oh yeah, yeah, and the lumberjack competitions. Lumberjack competitions are awesome, and then the lumberjack competition. I always remember the log rolling, and I think of wide receiver versus cornerback, like the log rolling where you're simultaneously manipulating the log, turning it into velocity and a rotation, watching your opponent's feet and if you can just get them ever so slightly off balance, you can dump them into the water. And that's what I want to see when we talk about that's what I want to see receivers, and I want to see them really because it's the same thing if you watch edge rushers and offensive tackles. Just as Muskaita did a tremendous terminology when he called it creator versus preventor, right and it's this squaring off and what you really want to see that's going to translate to the NFL is the wide receiver approaching his craft like that like I am in it, and I'm going to anticipate the way you're going to react to what I do in a way that I'm going to beat you, not just using brute you know, strength or or agility or speed, but getting into the head of your opponent. And that's why we love those brash like Jeffreyokuda, like the brash corners who take the opposite approach and say, I'm going to frustrate you, So Lamb can do that. Judy is the king of that in this class. But I also see with Ceedee Lamb, like Jerry Judy, another thing that I like to look for JJ is intent, right, like every move has intent, every move like in some ways you want a player to have a quieter body because there's so much more under control. And one other thing I like about Ceedee Lamb is he changes speeds in his routes. And I think that's something that's very underrated because we look at forty time and we think top speed is important, but I think changing speeds within your routes, because that was a big problem I had with OURTHEGA white side. And I'm not declared victory, but I was much lower on ourthago white side than others. And Chase Claypole's another guy that I think if he stays a wide receiver, that's gonna have a problem with this. If all of your routes, if all of your route stems are the same speed, and you're the same speed through your break, then NFL corners are going to be able to handle you pretty well.

00:16:44
Speaker 1: Jerry Judy's a little bit of that.

00:16:46
Speaker 4: But I think I think Jerry Judy's ability to sell his route stem is going to help him so much. Ceedee Lamb. You can see you can watch him in a route and he has an extra gear or a moment that he lulls the corner back and then explodes past. So I think his game is NFL ready, even though we don't think of Oklahoma wide receivers as NFL ready wide receivers.

00:17:05
Speaker 3: Right, So Lamb is your one then amongst the two. Yeah, Okay, So let's talk about one of the more polarizing prospects, and at least for fantasy purposes in this class.

00:17:16
Speaker 2: That's Henry Ruggs, Jerry Judy's teammate. The lack of.

00:17:19
Speaker 3: Production for analytical folks is a pretty big concern, but his film does suggest that he can be an impact player. I'm curious where you land on him and for fantasy purposes, is here wide receiver three? You know, because I think that there's a debate and an argument and a discussion that can be had that he's one of those guys who could make a much bigger impact just for a real NFL team than what you might see in the fantasy stat sheets, sort of like a Deshaun Jackson.

00:17:49
Speaker 1: Right, And I think it's fair to compare to Shawn Jackson.

00:17:51
Speaker 4: I know Matt Walden compared him to Santana Moss and makes the point that we don't know what Santana Moss would have done in this NFL. And you know, with more three and wide receiver four wide receiver sets. You know, this is again going back to separation. This is why separation is so important in today's NFL. It's a way for offensive coordinators to make it a little easier for quarterbacks. As you know, we're losing that golden generational quarterbacks and having to get more quarterbacks to step up.

00:18:14
Speaker 1: So Ruggs, I.

00:18:15
Speaker 4: Think your model and incorporating draft position is going to really allow the balancing of well the low market share. But look again, you have to look at the offense. You have to look at the fact that he's playing with two future NFL one that's going to get drafted at roughly the same part of the draft as him, another that's going to go very high next year. So that's part of it. And then you just see the NFL application. So with Henry Ruggs, he's not just speed. And I've seen the thing brought up about receivers that run under three for you know, their track record under four to three, their track record has been poor, and that might be fair, although I don't think a lot of those guys have gone in the first round. Again, the NFL is kind of telling you how much skill there is to go with these trains. What I like about Rugs is that he is somewhat physical at the catch point. You know, he can be physical and creative. Releases are another thing. And this is something I'm gonna mention Matt Waldman like seventeen times during the show, But releases are something that's either. And here's the thing. Ruggs has some skill at getting releases against press coverage, but because he's so fast, he probably won't see it as often. And this is also something Alabama did that he very rarely had someone lined up right on him.

00:19:31
Speaker 1: So he's not Tyreek Hill. First of all, Let's just throw that Tyreek Hill.

00:19:35
Speaker 4: Tyreek Hill's got that dog in him, you know, And I mean that's just something that's I mean, he's like that Steve Smith kind of quality. It's just not something that you see always. But I think that Ruggs is an exciting player. When you think of slants and crossing patterns, what you really want to do is you want to get Rugs the ball in his hand when he's moving. And if he can you can get him the ball when he's moving across the formation and a crossing pattern or in a quick slant, then he's going to be a problem. And of course he has the speed to take the top off the defense, but he's still you know, I have him below Denzel Mims right now. I love Denzel Mims. I always fall for players like Denzel Mims. And then we're going to see where these guys land because I always think of wide receivers in fantasy terms as a quarterback to wide receiver combination, so that's something that could change things too. But I don't have Rugs number three, but I have him number four, and I think when a team is willing to take him in the top three, maybe even this the first receiver off the board, we have to pay attention to that.

00:20:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, one thing that you mentioned is the historical comps analytically for Ruggs, a guy who can run a sub for three that then goes in the first round. And I think that that's one of the very very important things to think about, especially for the audience listening to this, who might skew more data more analytical, or for other analysts and people who are pushing sort of the anti Rugs agenda based on his numbers. I totally get where that's coming from, because my model doesn't like Rugs right now. My model will be fine with Rugs once he's a top fifteen pick, right but right now it doesn't love Henry Ruggs. But I will say, you know, if you look at history, our sample sizes, I mean, if you want to talk data, our sample sizes.

00:21:13
Speaker 2: Are very, very small.

00:21:15
Speaker 3: Of wide receivers with his type of production who then go in the first round. All of those receivers didn't really pan out. The best one is probably Ted Gin, So all those receivers didn't pan out. But if you're going to think about this in a numbers driven way, then you have to think about that from start to finish, and you have to understand the sample size involved here. And if you're only talking nine other wide receivers in my prospect model, for instance, that have a negative stat score who then get drafted in the first round, that's not that many wide receivers really base a strong, strong conclusion off of. So the way I'm basically what I'm saying is that from my perspective, I'm thinking about Rugs in a very open minded way where I don't think it's necessary to take a really strong stance and say that he's going to bust, not only because I think he can have a really big impact in the real NFL, not necessarily fantasy, but also the fact that you know, we're in a different era, we're seeing different types of wide receiver succeed and we know that historically that the sample sizes are pretty small for a guy like Rugs. So outside of Judy and Lamb, do you see anyone with sort of alpha potential, whether we're talking about a bigger bodied guy like a Julio type size, or whether we're talking about someone who could just be a wide receiver one in fantasy football for multiple years.

00:22:30
Speaker 1: Probably not.

00:22:31
Speaker 4: I mean, okay, so I'll hedge a little bit justin Jefferson if he can play a Julian Edelman kind of role.

00:22:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, Cooper Cup type.

00:22:43
Speaker 4: Cooper Cup right, he could be one hundred catch guy, one hundred catch, eleven hundred yards, ten touchdown kind of guy. That's a wide receiver one put T Higgins or Denzel Mims with Aaron Rodgers. Now he's got a DeVante Adams. What I'm trying to say is a quarterback who's willing to take advantage of these players catch radius, their ability to be fast enough to get downfield and then finish the play.

00:23:11
Speaker 1: Uh, they could.

00:23:13
Speaker 4: Again, the right quarterback, the right offense, Leviscus Chanault is really interesting.

00:23:18
Speaker 1: He gotta stay healthy. I mean that's one of those.

00:23:20
Speaker 4: Things too, Like I don't know how you account for that. And I think we're gonna see draft capital somewhat reflect it. I think if he you know, if he had stayed healthy throughout his college career, he would easily be a first round pick. He might be anyway, that's a tough thing to account for.

00:23:37
Speaker 1: You know. They're just those players that.

00:23:38
Speaker 4: Can be incomplete when they come out of college, but then they do take make that step, take that leap. But I think, I think not I hear j j Ari. I'll do big picture hot take for you. Here are we going to have a lot of wide receiver ones in fantasy football period going forward?

00:23:57
Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying.

00:23:58
Speaker 1: I did.

00:23:58
Speaker 3: I did a podcast or this offseason called the death of the elite wide receiver because we're starting to see that more. It's literally, I mean last year was just Michael Thomas, and we're seeing that dwindle more and more as seasons go on.

00:24:10
Speaker 2: So I'm totally totally with you at that take.

00:24:12
Speaker 4: So there's a larger take care. I think Rich Reebar, who is who I know. We both have teamed very highly, and I'm sure most of the people listening to this this team highly also shares this view. I remember ritorial little story about the old days, you know, back in like the mid aughts, insomuch as there was robust fantasy football debate when you said running back by committee is coming, people didn't really believe it because this was back in the days of the stud running back theory. As far as drafting went. This is why we have PPR fantasy football as the default, because every draft twenty of the first twenty four picks were running backs and it was just boring. And then teams started fragmenting and segmenting out the job of running back and you had different running backs, you know, some of the teams that led the way of New England, for instance, different running backs who were best at their job. And of course there's leveling out the idea of you don't want to telegraph the play based on the running back that's on the field. And I think the teams are doing this, and you brought up Cooper Cupp in the Rams. That's a good example of you have different wide receivers who have different hot zones in their skills set, and depending on the matchup that week, one of those guys can be the guy for that week, and other weeks they might just be a decoy or cancel out that shutdown corner. So that guy's not going to mess up your offensive game plan. I think more and more teams are going to this kind of pattern where in any given week, we're gonna have the typical wide receiver on scores, you know, ten catches for one hundred and seventy yards in a touchdown or something like that. But over the course of the year, it's going to level out, and I think this class kind of reflects that they're going to fit in well. So that's the big picture, and what it means is we're going to come back around to taking running backs and you know, you're Travis Kelce and George Kittle early in drafts and maybe kicking wide receiver down round or two.

00:26:04
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely.

00:26:05
Speaker 3: And speaking of rich one of the things that that him and I have discussed actually this offseason, one of the things that I messaged him recently was I just feel like this wide receiver class is filled with a bunch of wide receiver tubes.

00:26:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that's that's that's what you know.

00:26:17
Speaker 3: Obviously, Judy and lamb Uh separate themselves a bit, but I think that's that's really what we're looking at.

00:26:23
Speaker 2: You know, you you mentioned Laviiskas.

00:26:25
Speaker 3: Chanault I think he's just a very very intriguing prospect because of his size, He's he's he's essentially a running back playing wide receiver in a way. And that's sort of the vibes that we got in a way with AJ Brown last year. And we've obviously seen AJ Brown shoot up dynasty rankings. I actually just took him as a wide receiver one in a in a dynasty startup, you know, because he has that that bigger body build. We see him with the crazy yards after the catchability. Personally, I saw AJ Brown as a better prospect than Leaviskas Chanault. But where do you lan, could could Laviskus Shanlt be this year's AJ Brown?

00:27:03
Speaker 4: Maybe not this year, maybe you know, in three or four years he can get Here's the thing, the main difference I'm gonna draw between the two of them. Yes, they're both big bullies, and Channel is even a bigger bully at the catch point than AJ Brown is. But if you go back and you watch AJ Brown at Old Miss, he was a very refined receiver. Again, when I talk about quiet body intent, all of your movements are meant to fluster your opponent, to create separation. The other thing about one of the things about AJ Brown, And just as a quick aside, again, since we're talking wide receiver scouting one of the big holes, and I'm including myself in this. It's interesting because we spend a lot of time and again I'll give credit to Matt Waldman for creating the dichotomy like ten or fifteen years ago between play inside of structure and outside of structure for a quarterback. Right, And we know and we watch and we can even greatly break out plays that show some quarterbacks are going to translate better outside of structure and some aren't. Because we understand again, plays with instructure in college are going to be plentiful in the NFL. The defense is out to break your structure. They're out to disrupt everything. You know, this is really important. It's why when you watch, if you watch offensive linemen and scout them, watch their recovery ability, watch what they do when they're initially beat, because that's going to happen a lot more in the NFL than it happened in college. Right, So, when you watched AJ Brown, some of his play outside of structure and some of his ability to be really instinctive to find open spaces and to otherwise help out his quarterback. I thought he should have been the pick for New England, my lord. He was a perfect New England receiver. He was a perfect New England receiver. I have no idea why they took carry over, so Brown was much more of a finished product. But the thing about Chanlt is you just see him. It reminds me jj of like the classic power forwards that just are going to back you down in the lane and you're not going to be able to stop them. You know, he's so imposing, he's and he understands how imposing he is, and he uses that and he goes up and gets the ball, and he he knows the respect that his speed gets. He's another one of these guys you have to watch looking between twenty nineteen when he was probably playing twenty eighteen. But he's his speed gets respect and he knows how to that to create some space. And I just think the thing is he's gonna have to land on a team that is willing to manufacture touches for him or just call his number on plays and then let the big man do his things. So he's really exciting and he could be a player. Look if someone wants to take him like fourth, fifth, sixth in a dinasty rookie draft. I'm not going to talk them out of it because I can see watching him, especially in twenty eighteen, and just being smitten, you know, just having like your eyes pop out of your head like a cartoon character and be like, I want that on my fantasy team. But there's you know, there's still a few more steps between here and there before his full potential can be unlocked.

00:30:03
Speaker 3: So you mentioned Denzel Mims. You like Denzel Mims. He's shooting up draft boards after a strong combine. Do you think he's worthy of a first rounder? And I guess you could make you know, I guess you could talk first rounder in both the real NFL draft and dynasty draft.

00:30:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, but but what type of impact do you think that he can make in fantasy?

00:30:19
Speaker 4: He can make a big impact, and I think that's your that's your Green Bay Packers number two wide receiver. I wouldn't be surprised if they move up for him. I just he looks so much of a Aaron Rodgers outside receiver. Mims and I have a type that I fall for. It all goes back comes back to Brandon Marshall, uh and and Mims you know what, I what you and uh, you know another guy that you might think of when you watch mems, maybe somebody like al Sean Jeffery, you know, before his body.

00:30:48
Speaker 1: Got used up. Because it's those guys that are big gliders.

00:30:53
Speaker 4: You know, you're not necessarily gonna see twinkle toes to create separation and routes, but their speed sneaks up on cornerbacks and surprises them. It's kind of like they're those guys that are big, but they're still when you're even you're leaving. And he is excellent at being an attacker in general. Right again, reminds me of Brandon Marshall, you know, attacking the ball when it's in the air, attacking, being the aggressor when he has the ball in his hands after the catch. And I love little things, man, when the ball's in the air. I love it when receivers are jostling and using their arms to create functional space to make the catch, because that's something again that's much much bigger. And also at the stem, I mean, I like seeing college wide receivers that already know how to put their hands on their opponent in a way that helps them do their job, but also.

00:31:48
Speaker 1: Won't get the flag.

00:31:49
Speaker 4: Yeah you know, so I think that now he's not going to be someone who creates immediate separation. But and yeah, I want to see his speed is build up speed. This is one of those things too. Or this individual data points from the combine can be a bit deceptive because Matt Waldman was talking about like the I think it's called the flying twenty, like the last twenty. You know, Denzel Mims great forty time is because of that last twenty, that first twenty. He might not, he might blend in a little bit. So, but I just I get really excited and Channel has some of these same qualities. I just get really excited when I see a receiver who is the aggressor and taking the game to his opponent in all aspects of the game.

00:32:30
Speaker 3: Another wide out that's sort of been all over the place from an evaluation standpoint this offseason is Brian Edwards. And I know it sounds random to just bring him up on a show and we're only you know, this is one of the last questions that we're talking about in terms of an individual wide receiver perspective. But I'm just really intrigued by him as a prospect because you have a really interesting production profile number one, but then he has his foot injury. He also played with Deebo Samuel at South Carolina, so you have that.

00:32:58
Speaker 2: But then if you look at what.

00:32:59
Speaker 3: He did at South Carolina, especially this past year, a lot of what he was getting into that offense was very screen pass driven. I think he was like fourth in college football and screen passes and he had one of the fewest deep ball rates in all of college football. So I guess my question is where do you land with a guy like Brian Edwards. And then when you see them these wide receivers used in particular ways, I think that you can even make you know, you can even talk about more of the hybrid types like a Curtis Samuel when he was at Ohio State, where they're being used in these very specific ways, and it doesn't tell you that this guy can't do something. You just have more question marks as to whether he.

00:33:37
Speaker 2: Can or can't do those things.

00:33:39
Speaker 3: So how do you sort of look at all of that and evaluate those players?

00:33:42
Speaker 1: Right? Right?

00:33:43
Speaker 4: It's it injects more uncertainty. Like Jay Jones is an example of the amount of production he had in college was unreal, but he was used in a way that really was not befitting the athletic gifts he showed to the combine and then he kind of fell through the cracks and we'll see what happens with him.

00:34:03
Speaker 1: Edwards is.

00:34:05
Speaker 4: I think he's a little bit more refined than the Chanal Brandon Ayuk, the big those big receivers, but he's built bulkier. He's not sluggish, but he's got this bulky built, so you know, he's not gonna like sink.

00:34:22
Speaker 1: His hips and snap off routes, and.

00:34:25
Speaker 4: He's not quite as dominant after the catch or at the catch point as those guys. He's not quite that that guy who's gonna constantly win those fifty to fifty balls. He is another one, though, where his speed sneaks up on his opponent. I really love watching him when he does like an out and up where he just does like a pretty you know, not an exaggerated break, but just he flips his hips to the outside and then back up the field, and it's very difficult for cornerbacks to stay with him. But he's a pretty linear guy in terms of the way he moved. You know, I love what NFL next Gen stats right, how they showed the takeoffs. He seems like a more linear guy to me, So I think that he may. So he's a lower ceiling, higher floor version of those guys. And I think how we're going to sort out these guys. We could throw Michael Pittman in this conversation to how Jalen Rager if you like him.

00:35:24
Speaker 1: T Higgins already.

00:35:24
Speaker 4: Mentioned how we're going to sort these guys out. I think is going to be a little more based on the landing spot, on early career opportunity and maybe draft position if somebody reaches for someone or if they fall, although we got to be careful, like with DK Metcalf falling to the late second that wasn't really that that meaningful last year. So Edwards is a little more of a high floor, low ceiling member of that group. But you're right to say, I'm not quite sure what it looks like when he's used in an NFL offense.

00:35:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, So we're not gonna be able to talk about every wide receiver in this class on today's show. I wish we could, but it's there's a lot of a lot of them, a lot of good ones. I can't remember there being a class with so many guys at the combine.

00:36:03
Speaker 2: By the way, Yeah seven years, there's so many wide receivers of the combine.

00:36:08
Speaker 3: But let's just let's just hear some takes of some of your favorites and then maybe maybe on the flip side, any any wide receivers that you think might be overvalued right now?

00:36:16
Speaker 4: Yeah, so a few of the players I think that are being overlooked. One is Van Jefferson because he's another one where his game is pro ready, his footwork, his paths on his routes, his timing, his ability to change speeds to great separation. It kind of reminds me a little bit of Rashard Higgins, which I mean, he might not be a big impactful receiver in terms of fantasy, but he's going to help right away and in the right spot, he could be very productive and a name that I want to put out there on the positive side. Now, and there's character issues, and usually at this time we're getting all kinds of delving into players pass and they can put statements out there and you know, teams can say what they're working with them. But a guy who I had a lot of problems that raised character issues with his team Jeff Thomas from Miami. But if you want somebody who can separate deep, you want somebody who can have the quickness and speak because you know, and it's great because you're r in the picture. Because a lot of people don't know that Pitt Penn State back in the eighties, it's one of the most vicious rivalries. I mean to the point where, like you know how it is man Western Pennsylvania, like you're part Remember if you were a pit guy on Pitt Penn State Day, your family members are friends that were Penn State people were not your friends and not your family. Because I look at kJ Hamler. So on the flip side, I look at kJ Hamler and I look at Jeff Thomas, and I know Thomas has character issues and teams are gonna maybe even be more wary of that this year than typical drafts. But strictly what happens between the sidelines, Thomas can offer everything that Hamdler can and maybe more because here's a all the way back to the original point. Right you watch kJ Hamler. First of all, what drops drops are a big problem with Hamdler, But it's a drops are a smaller part of a larger problem, which is he's just kind of a finesse player. He's quick, he's springy, he accelerates, you know when he faces someone like he did in that Michigan game that I'm.

00:38:20
Speaker 1: Sure a lot of people have watched.

00:38:21
Speaker 4: When kJ Hamler faces somebody who's a clunky mover, he knows how to dump him in the water on the log roll. But he's not going to face as many guys like that in the NFL. And when you watch kJ Hamler at the catchpoint, he just shrinks away from it, you know, when there's anybody around him, it's it's like it just throws him off. It's just static on the television screen. And he's not able to finish those plays. He doesn't break a lot of tackles, and he's going to have to be used in a very specific way in the NFL to be productive. And you may see maybe like a Philip Dorset kind of career path for him. Not Dorset, it was a first round pick. Another player I already mentioned Chase Claypool, but I'll say if you move Chase Claypool to tight end got like Evan Ingram, right, So you know what where? How is he going to be used another player? I think that I want to just draw a little bit of attention to, but I know other people doing it is quintessiphis out of Wisconsin because again the models are going to reject him because of that forty time. But when you watch him play, he's so good at selling his routes and changing speeds and getting a cornerback in reactive mode and understanding how because he's going to react to what I do, I know how to dek him into thinking I'm going to do this when I'm really going to do something else. And he's so he's so formidable at the catch point. Now he doesn't have a dominant physical trait. So you know, I'll be interested to see if a team takes a chance on him after that forty time and if what are team's going to Uh so you know some of these Well, another thing that's really great about this stuff, JJ is you know the receivers well going into the draft, then it's meaningful when a team takes that receiver. You know, you understand how they scout receivers based on who they take as Cephas is one of those guys.

00:40:11
Speaker 2: Sig man, Thanks so much for hopping on and chatting. It's always great to hear your voice.

00:40:14
Speaker 3: For those of you who aren't following Sig on Twitter, you can find him at Sigmund Bloom and all of his workover on footballguys dot com. You can catch me on Twitter too at Late Round QB, and make sure you're subscribed to the Late Round podcast, which you can find pretty much anywhere podcasts can be found. Thanks for listening everyone, I'll talk to you later in the week.