Episode 17: Denise Fenzi Interview, Part 1

Everybody, welcome to the Canine Connection podcast.
I'm here today with Denise Fenzi. Unfortunately,
Lori couldn't join us. She had an emergency.
But I am super excited that Denise is giving
us her time. I have lots and lots of questions
I want to ask her. And the first thing I want
to know is her journey to start the Fenzi. dog
sports Academy, because I think if you look at
somebody just on the surface, she has this successful
school. She has a ranch. She's a well -known
personality on Facebook. And these things don't
just happen overnight out of nowhere. So Denise,
tell me, cause I want to know about your journey
to start the school and everything you're doing
now. So, um, I actually started many businesses
before I got to FDSA with varying levels of success.
Some of them were pretty, let's say, tragic,
partly because I am I'm a super optimistic person
and I trust people very Pollyanna in many ways.
And so that means I do a lot of things. I love
doing things with other people. I get involved
and sometimes that works out and sometimes it
doesn't. Somewhere. Yeah. Tragic. But FDSA. I
started the school after somebody else asked
me to teach a class at their online platform.
And it was, in my opinion, shockingly successful.
So that was what, 13 years ago, 14 years ago.
I, one, didn't know how well it would actually
work. Like, how well can you teach a class? So
that was that was the thing. Who's even going
to find me, you know? And I would have continued
working for that organization, except it was
agility focused. And people couldn't find me
there. So unless they changed the name, which
I actually suggested to her, I go, look, if you
change the name, I'll do all the obedience stuff.
I'll even like run an obedience school for you
with other people and such. But she was an agility
person, so she didn't do that. And I just felt
that there was going to be a lot of power in
online learning after I experienced it. I was
so impressed by how well people did that I decided
to give it a shot. And it was new back then.
So that's that was a thing. And I wanted to come
in and cover a lot of territory at once. So I
think I started out with five or six instructors,
opened it up and just wanted it to be very broad.
And I will say it's gone way beyond my wildest
dreams, like in terms of impact and attraction
to people and success. So it's it's been a pretty
cool thing. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Just how
big it is. I don't and I look around. There really
aren't that many online schools and certainly
not that cover so many different topics. Right.
You cover pretty much like all sports just about.
Yeah. My experience is that there are a lot of
individual contributors out there who offer their
own whatever, you know, their own classes, their
own thing, which is super, especially since COVID.
As we know, there was a lot of pivoting. And
if you didn't pivot, you died as a dog trainer
because you really couldn't make it. So you had
to figure something out. And a lot of people
did figure out the online space at that time.
But no, there's not a lot of generic schools
kind of that do what we do. My husband's perspective
is that the school is successful because for
a very, very long time, I've sort of had a single
-minded focus. on making the dog training sport
community a little kinder towards dogs. And that's
really been a driving thing in everything I've
done. It's been a driving thing in my teaching.
It's been a driver in my competing, in my private
lessons when I was doing that, in my seminars,
and then eventually in my online school. It's
really not wavered that much. My goal is to help
people find ways. to get the results they want,
especially in dog sports, being as kind as they
can possibly be to their dog. So he thinks that
that sort of single -minded focus is a big part
of success. I really don't know. I'm just happy
that things are where they're at. I'm super proud
of the school. You should be. I think it is a
big reason the school is super successful because
I think that It's where people have a place to
go that want to work with their dog in that way.
And those places aren't always around. And now
so and there's a place to go regardless of what
sport you're in. And in certain sports, that's
really hard to find. Yeah, well, when I started
the school 13 years ago. It I would like, you
know, obedience is sort of my. kind of first
love and first competition sport. I mean, I've
been doing it for 45 years. And back then, the
only options you had were tracking, AKC tracking,
AKC obedience, confirmation. I was before agility.
So you really didn't have a lot of options. And
so obedience is the direction I went. But I genuinely
love obedience. But I can say that back when
I was competing, it's very, very likely that
I was the only person. at any given dog show
that was training with, when I say positive reinforcement,
I mean without additional corrections. I'm not
saying, there's no such thing as force free,
so I don't even talk about that. But what I'm
saying is it was really important to me that
I not be pulling on my dog or pushing or using
a you have to do it sort of approach. And there
were plenty of other people doing things there
that I didn't have a problem with. I didn't think
they were being unkind, but they were not doing
what I was doing. And if somebody wanted to do
what I was doing, their options were almost zero
if they could not figure it out for themselves.
It just didn't exist. Now, things are way better
now. I know they are. When I go to fun matches,
which is rare, but if I do, I see people doing
like toy play. Nobody was playing with toys when
I started. They were using food. And that came,
I'm in the area where Judy Howard was, and she
really brought food to obedience on the West
Coast. We all thought she was cheating. It was
like, oh, she's using food. Of course her dogs
are doing it, but you know, the rest of us wanted
to win too. So, and she seemed to be winning
and she wasn't doing it in the ring. So she was
above board, right? So that really is when I
started to see food take hold. And I saw toys
starting to take hold after I showed up. I'm
not saying I brought toys. I'm just saying that
until I was around and until agility, people
started coming back to obedience. So they started
in obedience. They went over to agility and some
of them came back and they brought some of those
toy skills with them. When I was teaching heavily
seminars like 17, 18 years ago, the number one
thing people didn't understand and wanted me
to teach them was. How do you use toys in obedience?
And I thought that was the oddest thing. I'm
like, well, you know, where you'd use food, use
a toy. And that eight hours later, I'd be in
a seminar and I'd realize it's actually not quite
that simple. But that was a big change. And so
now it's not unusual to see these things around
training, you know, more food, more enthusiasm,
more personal play, more toy play. And there's
still plenty of, you know, degrees of corrections,
but. at least on the West Coast, I think there
is at least a desire to have a dog that's buying
in. And that wasn't necessarily true, especially
when I started with my dogs so many years ago.
It didn't even cross my mind that I didn't care
how the dog felt. I mean, I really didn't. I
remember pulling dogs out from under the table
to train them. So that's not exactly buying in,
but it didn't matter to me. That's not why I
was there. I was a kid. And my whole mind was
so different. And now I'm like, I won't even
do it. There's no way I'm going to train a dog
who doesn't want to do it. It just would mean
nothing to me. I would have no value in there
if it wasn't my partner and my friend. What caused
it? What created that change? What triggered
that? Well, the first dog I trained him with
positive methods and then I proofed him with...
corrections. And that was I was 25. I'm 56 now.
So I don't know what the math comes out. But
anyway, and he was also my first Belgian. And
the shift was not intentional. It was just that
I wanted to start working with him. And the tradition
then is you didn't train until they were six
months of age. And so what was I going to do
with him between two months and six months? Right.
So I thought, OK, well, I'll start training him
in six months. But in the meantime, I'll just
do these obedience tricks. Right. Like. healing
and stay in fronts and finishes and recalls and
retrieving and oh sendaways and he was just a
very bright dog and i had as i recall he was
hold on a sec hey i know you're playing but no
um i think it was 26 months he was a champion
udt so he learned very fast he had a high end
trial he was pretty easy to work with so by six
months of age that dog knew a lot of stuff and
i was doing it with the ball so then at six months
i was going to get out the choke chain and start
training him. But that seemed a little silly
because he was doing well. So I didn't. So seven
months, eight months. Now, by the time he was
10 months old, I felt like he knew everything
through utility in my backyard. Right. So kind
of the classic high and trial in your backyard
dog, you know. And then I took him to a training
class and I was all I could not wait to show
off my amazing dog. But my amazing dog wasn't
there that day. My amazing dog. was so overwhelmed
by the environment and so excited. And then my
brain kicked in and said, OK, because I didn't
understand what I was looking at. So then it
was like, well, it's time for the corrections
because he knows this. So now I have to make
him do it. So that's when with that dog, I started
using some corrections. But really, it was all
pretty light handed because he knew it. And it
was just OK, you have to do it when we're in
public or whatever his issue was, like when there's
other dogs around or whatever. And that kind
of went like you'd expect. It kind of worked
and it kind of didn't. It's like they're not
dumb. Like, OK, so when you're correct, if you're
correcting me, then I probably shouldn't do those
things. But when you're not correcting me, I'll
still do those things. OK, so life went on and
then I I used to work for the federal government.
I actually have my master's degree in public
administration and I had planned to do that as
my my work, my job. And then dogs are my entertainment,
my hobby for fun. And that was fine until I had
a child and I had a really difficult child and
I just could not figure out how I was going to
put him in daycare and go to work. It was just
not going to work. He was like, he needed constant
attention. He was a really challenging boy. And
so I ended up not going back to work, but then
that left me home with a toddler and I'm like
the worst day at home mom. I mean, it's not that
I'm a bad mom. I just, my attention span is very
short. And I'm not a child person. Now, don't
get me wrong. I love my kids and all. But like
when I see a mama and a baby, I have no particular
need to go see them. I just don't. Now, I'm the
same. I spent a lot more time looking at puppies
and dogs than I do looking at human children.
And so I loved my own children. But, you know,
this was also the Internet was just starting.
So everything was there was no like cell phone.
Your life was, you know, I was in the house alone.
My husband was working in Texas and we lived
in California. So he was flying back and forth.
It was grim. And I was really struggling with
that and desperately wanted to get back to my
dog stuff. And I had bought a dog when I had
a human child, which I don't really recommend,
but whatever. So I had this lovely, lovely, drivey,
drivey dog. So much fun. And I just worked it
out where I would go to the IGP club and I got
some private lessons there. And somebody else
said, well, you know, will you help me with my,
it wasn't me personally, it was his dogs. And
I think I got $50 a day to board and train his
dogs, but I didn't care because it was enough
that it paid for a babysitter so that I could
go and train dogs, my own dogs a few days a week
and just frankly be around adults. And somehow
I never went back to work and my husband stayed
at work. And so I called myself a stay at home
mom for years and years and years, even though
I was doing more and more lessons, starting to
do more stuff myself than people were inviting
me to teach seminars. And next thing you know,
I guess I was a dog trainer. And, you know, it
just it just sort of happened. It transitioned.
And what happened is I had this dog, Soja. She
was just such a little. powerhouse, such a fun,
fun dog. There was just no place for the corrections.
It just didn't make sense. She had the focus
that the other dog didn't have. And so where
was I going to start with these corrections?
So I got an IGP -3 on her without corrections.
And there was, you know, at some point it started
to become, can I do this? Like the contest of
it became really interesting. And there was also
the way I was seeing training at that club was
so hard to watch, so compulsive. My God, I mean,
it was just terrible, the things they were doing.
And as I watched that, I was thinking, they need
to know that you don't have to. abuse your dog.
Like I wasn't having a problem with corrections
per se, but they were strangling dogs. Like it
wasn't, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen
in an AKC environment. It was just terrible.
It's like field work. And that was before e -collars.
So it wasn't even e -collars, but the brutality
was really hard for me. And I just, I didn't
want that. So I think I was working away from
that as much as I was working for positive. And
then my dog kind of looked happy and their dogs
didn't look too happy. And so they started to
notice and I like being different. I'm a little
bit contrary just by nature. And then I got,
you know, so I did get an IGP -3 on that UDT
dog, Justin. And then I bought a working line
dog that was Soja. But with her, I just, there
was just no place to use corrections. She's just
such a hardworking dog, such a cool dog. And
I took her in the AKC ring with no preparation,
you know, two 199s, just high and short, right
off the bat, just. Such a good, successful little
dog. And ended up giving her to her co -owner
to do agility with because they just felt she'd
be happier there. And so she took her and I had
one of her puppies. That was Rekha, who I should
tell this story at some point. But anyway, you
saw her at the NOI in Long Beach. And all this
time I was doing everything myself more and more
positively because it was interesting and I wasn't
finding places to correct. It just wasn't coming
up. But I was still using corrections with my
students and because it was easier. It's just
it was easier to to tell somebody to correct
when the dog does it wrong. And it wasn't like
I was hard handed. I was actually quite soft.
But there were still corrections in there. And
it didn't that part didn't really change until
I did a lot of seminars. And one day I was just
like. I never even get to the dogs. Like there
are so many issues with the people and, and the
way they're handling and their food placement
and their choice of reinforcement and the choice
of environments and where they're standing and
they're causing all their problems. And so I
was just like, I mean, a really simple Zen, could
you play somewhere else? They, a simple example,
you do a recall and your back is against the
wall. And so the dog doesn't come all the way
in because of the pressure of the wall. And so
then they correct their dog in. So now their
dog stands further back. Like that is such an,
to me, that's such an obvious and easy fix. Like
don't do your recall against the wall. And now
the dog comes in very nice. Now slowly back up
to the wall. Right. So, and that was all I did.
I felt like just dog after dog was your dog heels
wide because you walk into your dog. Your dog
heels close because you walk the other direction.
Your dog lags because your shoulder is back.
Your dog forges because you're wrapping your,
it just went on and on. I just remember kind
of being in one seminar and just thinking, I
never get around to correcting the dogs in seminars.
I'm just fixing these things that people don't
see. They don't think about. And that's kind
of when I went home and thought, what happens
if I train my clients the way I train my own
dogs? And it's really hard. All I can say is
it's really hard because I'm not training their
dogs. I'm training them to train their dogs.
And they are all over the map, right, in terms
of their skill level. But my creativity went
through the roof because all of a sudden I had
to solve problems that I knew how to solve very
easily with a correction. I had to figure out
how to communicate. to the person, first of all,
where it came from, because now it mattered where
it came from, because now we're going to have
to get out of that. And then I had to think of
answers to problems like dogs doing a sendaway
spinning on the way out. Like, oh, wow, what
do I do about that? Like, I just remember it
always. And your brain just kind of goes on steroids.
You know, it's like amazing when you have to
solve a problem, especially when you're in front
of people. I don't know the problems, the solutions
come to me, or at least. It may not be the solution,
but a possibility. So we try it. And then maybe
it works and maybe it doesn't. But you're on
a path. And, you know, the nice thing about being
a competition dog trainer, you have the same
students for years. So that means you have the
opportunity to see. Like in a seminar, there's
no responsibility. You come in, you do your thing,
you lead. You can make a mess or you can make
things better. But you're not around to see where
it all goes. But when you have clients and you
see them over and over again, you really have
an opportunity. to try out a lot of paths. And
I think you learn a lot about not only what works
and what doesn't work, but what are the ramifications.
So if you apply this solution, what happens to
the whole big picture? And then after a while,
I'm doing fine. I didn't find that I needed the
corrections. And after a while, the kind of clients
I tended to get, I am in an area with a lot of
high power trainers. And so I got either very
low drive dogs because nobody knows what to do
to motivate them or very high drive dogs because
nobody knows what to do to calm them down. So
I kind of got the extremes and I got a lot of
people that the other trainers didn't want. So
the other trainers got really good dogs and wanted
that. And they themselves were very successful
and their clients were very successful. And I
was learning on dogs that, you know, the owners
were often really lovely people, but they were
not talented. And I remember the first time I
got a dog, it was a golden bread for work with
an otch handler. And I was literally just blown
away. I'm like, my God, this is so easy. It's
cheating. Like it was just, it was so easy. Everything
you did worked. And that was the experience I
had with my own dog, like Soja. It was like,
wow, this is so easy. She wants to do it. She's
easy to motivate. She's in the game. And that's
how I feel about the border collie I have now.
It's like he's in his way. But some things are
just so easy. I'm like, damn, you show him five
times and he's got it. And I don't have to worry
about rate of reinforcement. This is fun. But
that's kind of how I crossed over. It wasn't
like one day I was, one day I wasn't. And even
with my own dogs. I can't even really say for
sure. Like with hindsight, I really could not
say for sure. Did I use corrections on this dog
or that dog? I don't really remember because
it wasn't, it wasn't like it is now, you know,
now there's a wall. So you're either goodness
and light and positive reinforcement, or you're
the evil devil and you're a balance trainer,
right? So we didn't do that so much back then.
It wasn't, there wasn't that hard divide. So
it didn't matter that much if a person who was
mostly positive reinforcement corrected a dog.
It wasn't like the, you know, the heavens were
going to fall in like it is now. I think a huge
point was when you started to realize that, you
know, that you weren't at the seminars, that
you weren't really working with the dogs, that
it was all the handlers, right? I think if you
realize that most of these, like why you don't
need to correct a dog that's not coming close
enough because of the wall, because. If you just
change your handling, the problem's resolved,
right? Then you don't need the correction. If
you fix your handling, if you do better training,
then you end up not needing to do corrections
because you're giving the dogs good information.
You're setting the dogs up to succeed. And then
all of a sudden it's like, oh, look, they're
doing it. Problem went away. And there are absolutely
issues. that are not that simple. Because what
I've learned since then, and what I'm really
fascinated by now, dogs have a personality, they
have a temperament, and they have opinions. So
I struggle with Zen coming in close and up in
front. And it's not because of pressure. It's
because of conflict. When he's holding an object,
he owns things. He has so much possession. And
he doesn't mind sitting there with me, but he
knows I want to take it. And it's a constant,
like nine times out of 10, when he comes in,
I don't take things from him. And then he can
do it. But every time I take something, it's
like money out of the bank. And I can give it
right back. But he knows I'm going to take it.
And the poor little dog, it took me months even
to get him to give me a toy. And he wanted me
to throw it, but he couldn't give it to me. He
could put it on the ground. We found some middle
ground. So he would put it on the ground and
then he would back away and then he could deal
with it. that's kind of an area that really interests
me now is understanding that, you know, inside
of them, they have things that are wired in there
too. And how do you work with those things? How
do you avoid the conflict, which then causes
the things you don't want to see instead of fighting
about it? Cause it's, it's frustrating when the
dog comes into front and you reach and the dog
turns their head away and you're like, you know
what? It's just your ball and I'm just going
to throw it again. And you know that, but then
that's the information right there. I know he
wants me to throw it again. And yet the, The
inability to just let me have it is so powerful.
It's a conflict in him because it's like, I want
you to throw, but I can't give you this. And
that's, you know, if, if you see it that way,
then it's like, well, what do I need to do to
one, make him trust me that I'm not going to
do it very often. And to find ways to reduce
that feeling that he's having that pressure that
he's having. And that is sort of endlessly fascinating
because. There are so many things that dogs bring
to the table that make it challenging for them
to do the things we want them to do. It could
be as simple as attention span, you know, like
my little terrier. He's just he's just got a
very short attention span. And it's not that
he's not trying. It's just that his brain gets
pulled 100 different directions. And I'm just
one little itty bitty corner and becoming more
sensitive to that and recognizing how hard it
is for him has. It's kind of helped me really
get to acceptance, whether I end up competing
with the dog or not, because now I can accept
it. It's not that big a deal to me anymore. If
a given dog isn't going to make it, as long as
I can make that dog happy, I'm kind of okay with
it. I'd be sad if I didn't have any dogs, because
I love to train. I want dogs to want to train.
But a lot of that driver to do a certain thing,
a certain way, has really gone down. And I think
it's made my life a little bit... easier, but
I so love having two dogs that love, love, love
to work. There's nothing they would rather do
than something with me, which is pretty cool.
Yeah, that is really nice. I mean, I think they
are all, they are all different. I mean, when
I look at Zaina, when I, when I take them swimming
and I throw them bumpers, it's like her personality,
it's like they're, that's who she is in work.
It's like, she breaks and breaks and breaks.
It's so hard. Her impulse control is terrible.
It's so hard for her to sit. And then like, she's
swimming for her bumper, but she's looking at
the other dog and the other dog. And she's like
all over the map. Right. And like, that's, and
she's swimming back and she's like, what's he
doing? I'm like, couldn't you just come back,
just come back. And I'm like, this is who she
is when I train her. And this is why like. She
tries her little heart out and that's all I can
ask of her. Right. And I can accept that she
cannot compete many, like she's not as consistent
as my other dogs, but she's still doing her very
best. And that's okay. Like I have, you know,
I have to recognize like this is. the essence
of who she is the essence of who she is I want
to I almost said as a person but that's how I
look at it you know the thing she does in life
that's exactly what she does in work and I'm
not gonna change that I mean I and I'm not gonna
try I just do the best I can with what she presents
like she wants to work she just you know has
her own little flair You know, Crystal, you know,
Crystal, because I know you were on her podcast
recently, Crystal Wing. We were just talking
about a dog. She's talking about a lab. And we
were talking about a dog who's prone to very
frantic behavior. And the dog simply can't sit
still. It's got two seconds in it. And so she
started making the cues all running. Run around
a cone. Get on a platform. Eat a cookie. Run
around a cone. It was sandwiching every expectation,
one position change, run around the cone. And
she said it was so effective with this dog because
movement, mindless movement, running, it's not
like you can go around a cone the wrong way.
Like you either went around the cone or you didn't,
right? So it's not. And she said it was amazing
how fast the dog's ability to sit still increased
on the platform as a result of this kind of super
high speed, high intensity training. And I was
listening to her and I said, you know, I love
training dogs like that because you think really
hard, like your brain is on fire because you
just need to be on top of it. But it's also very
hard for most people because you have to be eight
steps ahead of the dog and it forces you. But
I loved, as we were talking about it, I loved
how she worked with what the dog was because
trying to get the dog not to move, you can physically
stop the dog from moving, but you can't stop
the brain. And if you can't stop the brain, it's
not actually going to work. Like you have to
figure out how to get the brain to engage. And
I do not know of a way that you can force the
brain to do your bidding, right? You just can't.
And it was just fun to brainstorm that kind of
a dog who was actually sounds like what you have.
So could be a fantastic worker, so much talent.
But man, that attention span, you better keep
things going. You better have a plan because
that dog was like all over. Yeah. And and she
likes all her ducks in a row with training, which
is pretty, pretty interesting. Like she's so
complicated because she's so many opposite things.
She's just so complex. But and if all the ducks
aren't in a row or if I take one half step out
of line, she starts yelling at me. Like that
is not how it goes. She's done it to me in the
ring. It's hilarious. She's like. This is not
how this goes. It's all wrong. You're not doing
it right. And I'm like, okay. You're part of
the bargain. You're a team. That's right. And
she had to tell you how to do it. For sure. And
that's what she does. Some dogs want to know
what is expected of them. They need that clarity.
Yes. Like somebody asked me today, like, what's
your percentage of how many straight recalls
do you do with a dog versus a drop on recall?
I said, well, that's completely dog dependent
because with Zaina, I never do a straight recall.
That makes her crazy because she goes, make up
your mind. It's either a straight recall or it's
a drop on recall. And that dog is going to, she's
nine years old. She has never once anticipated
a drop. And all I do is drop her. Now take another
dog. If I dropped another dog all the time, well,
they would be anticipating constantly. So, you
know, every dog is so, but that's what I love
about dog training. Not just my dogs, but students'
dogs. when they are challenging and you just
have to figure out like what in the world is
this you know what is this dog thinking what's
this dog's personality like what makes this dog
tick how does this dog process everything I think
that's the super fascinating thing about dog
training yeah it's it's many lifetimes and just
when I think I worked it out I mean just when
I think I have figured out how to solve this
problem And then the next dog comes up with the
problem. I'm like, oh, this is perfect. And you
know what? No, it's a different dog. It's a different
presentation. And that's not going to work this
time. It's amazing. It is a very humbling thing,
training dogs. Because, I mean, I went through
a phase where I did know everything. The problem
is it didn't hold up. So now I don't know everything
anymore, which is so sad. It was really comforting
to know that I could solve all the problems.
I knew everything. I knew, I knew all of your
problems and then I actually had to solve problems.
I'm like, Oh, in theory, it looked really good.
Like that makes me laugh. Cause you know, you're
on social media and somebody, you know, you,
you say whatever your dog and they go, well,
you just, and they like, this is what I did and
you just whatever. And I'm like, God, that's
so amazing. That worked for your two dogs. What
about the other like 300 million dogs in this
country? Are you sure? But my dogs have been
so different. I mean, I had and so challenging,
like such polar extremes. I mean, I remember
Zayden, he was completely not wired right. I
didn't even know for the first two years of his
life. I just was like, God, this is like the
hardest dog in the world to train. But each.
And then Zeal was terrified. Oh, my God. So many.
They were so they've all been so challenging.
But I don't know. Yeah. So I never got to the
point where I think before I got Zayden, I thought
I actually for a minute there, I thought I knew
what I was doing. I was very confident for like
a minute. Yeah. And then I started training him
and I was like, I know what I'm doing. I'm this
puppy is going to be amazing. And he's like.
I had him for like three months and I'm in my
backyard and I sit on my rock wall and I go,
this dog doesn't know a single thing. I have
been trying to teach him for three months. Like
this is going horribly wrong. And yeah. And from
that day forward, I never again did I think I
knew what I was doing. Now I'm just like. Every
dog is going to be a challenge and it's just
a constant learning process. But that's why I
love it because I feel like I know if it was
easy, I'd be out. I would have been out decades
ago. Because you're done. You did it. I would
have been bored. I would have just been totally
bored. Yeah. No, the challenge is awesome. It's
so hard and it's just endlessly fascinating,
like endlessly fascinating to me. What I find
interesting, though, is people I mean, look,
we all get frustrated. That's normal. I get frustrated
with myself when I can't figure something out
because I know my dog's trying. I'm like, I just
can't figure this out. And sometimes I'll get
frustrated. But like sometimes people get really
upset. And I'm and I'm like, yeah, but that's
what part of training like whoever told you this
was easy, that this was supposed to be just.
You know, I think people get very frustrated
when things very quickly. And I think they get
frustrated with the dogs. I think people have
a fear that it will never get better. So, you
know, the first time you watch a dog walk through
the broad jump and my my brain immediately says,
holy shit, I never want to see that again. He's
going to do it in the ring and we're never going
to get a CDX or whatever. Like it's it's very
easy to go there. Now, as a coach, I watch people
go through that and I'm like, what are you talking
about? But when I'm in, when I'm the person who's
watching my dog walk through the bra jump, I've
been there. I mean, I have so been there. And
I think when I get upset in training, it's because
I don't know if I can solve a specific problem,
but I don't know. I've been around long enough.
I just don't get that upset anymore. And also
if I do get upset, I stop training because I
just know not to train upset. It never, it never
ends up a good thing. So stop the training. And
I think. You probably have this too. I have a
little bit of an obsessive thing. So my dog's
position changes are not perfect. Now, perfect,
I have a definition in my head, which has nothing
to do with scoring because they don't score on
what I'm looking for. I don't want any foot to
move. I want your front feet to plant and your
rear moves and nothing else moves. So that would
be my mental model. It's not about getting a
perfect score. And I have been working on this
for four years with this dog. And I still don't
have it. I think I'm closer, but the obsession
is about, can I get it? And so I'm not, it's
not like I can't get position changes and I can
very likely get full point position changes right
now if he's not in an arousal spike, but I care
about it because I want to know how to do it.
And that's the thing that's kind of. got me and
it's like why do I care why don't I just walk
away it's good enough but then I'm like that
works for one day and then I'm like I wonder
if I tried I'm the same way I like love figuring
things out like I remember with zeal um he that
poor dog like life it the planet was just really
hard for him and he got to a certain point in
his training where or competition where when
he was on, he was like 199 and above. I mean,
he was a machine, but he would just randomly
implode and it would always be on one exercise.
And it was never the same exercise in one weekend
and in a tournament that would knock you out.
So I was talking to a behaviorist that I had
worked with. And and I said, you know, I think
this is just the best he can be. And I'm OK with
that. And she's like, I think this is like beyond.
Yeah, he's already working so far beyond his
ability that his natural ability that that's
you're never going to get any better than that.
And I was like, OK, like I completely accept
that. Like I can accept that he's doing the very
best he can. But I never stopped trying to figure
out. could I make it even better for myself?
Like not because it even mattered. Like I had
accepted that he was who he was and that was
more than good enough. I, but I just still wanted
to figure out, like, can I make him more comfortable?
Can I make him more like, what could I do? And
I'm glad I'm like that because the fact that
I continued doing that, that's when I eventually
like, um, I don't know, like came up with strategies
that really helped him that I use with a ton
of students now. Right. So I think that obsessive,
you know, desire, like, can I figure this out?
Like, can I solve this problem? That's our own
personal journey, but it also ends up, I think,
helping us tremendously as instructors. Absolutely.
Because that's, they benefit. I think what starts
to happen, Let's say you have 10 solutions to
a specific issue, but you start to learn that
these three solutions generally work on the higher
energy dog. This one over here works on the lower.
Like you start making patterns in your head and
it makes you much better at predicting because
you can say to yourself, I've seen this type
of a dog before and this is what worked with
that type. Rarely do I find that there are solutions
to problems. I find that there are different
solutions. to problems depending on where those,
where's the, where's the source of the problem?
You know, is it the dog is afraid or who knows
what, but I think when you've seen enough dogs,
whether you've seen them in seminars or online
or whatever, man, I mean, eventually, and you're
probably in the same boat, you in some way worked
with thousands, you work with thousands of dogs
eventually, and you start noticing the patterns
and you go, all right, well, this pattern, this
is what's worked for me in the past. What's harder,
I find, is to solve my own problems. I find it
much easier to solve other people's. With my
own, I really have to stop and tell myself to
look at it as an instructor. So watch the video.
Don't watch yourself training your dog. Watch
it as if you were watching a client. And my God,
that is so impactful. It works a high percentage
of the time. I'll think of something I hadn't
thought of or that should have been obvious to
me that I should know. But it's harder to see
it in your own sometimes than I think than in
other people's. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, some exactly.
That's so funny that you said that more recently.
I'm like, oh, my God, just step back and pretend
this was your student. Like, what would you tell
them? Because a few months ago I was I can't
remember what I was struggling with. And so Lori,
who had learned a lot from me. was like well
why don't you try that and i'm like oh my god
i tell students to do that all the time why didn't
i think to do that for myself i was like what's
wrong with me there's really something to being
too close to a problem it's like it just your
analytical brain has more trouble and your emotional
brain kind of clouds things but i'm definitely
much more successful if i am looking at it as
an outsider and leaving my personal baggage behind
because it's almost immediate it's almost like
oh my god your rate of reinforcement too low
you've been doing this too long like i can just
instantly like boom boom boom boom like why why
can't i do that like in real time i think i think
a big part of it for sure with my students like
i am able like i remind myself all the time that
like just be a detective like don't be emotional
just be a detective right like gather data and
then look at the data and solve the problem.
Because it's exactly what you said. The dog makes
a mistake. Oh God, they're going to do this in
the ring or I'm never going to, you know, this
is going to be terrible. And students for sure.
I mean, they go down a rabbit hole and then I
feel like I have to talk them off the ledge.
And I'm like, it's really not that bad. You know,
we'll figure it out. But I will say, I also think
that's why the online school is so successful.
When you first asked me, I don't remember if
it was a webinar or a class. And in my head,
I'm like, how in the world am I going to actually
teach people? Like, I don't even understand how
this is going to work, like on a computer online.
And after a while, I was like, oh, this is fascinating.
I'm like, these online students are learning
more quickly. than my in -person students. Yes.
And I'm convinced it's because they have to record
their sessions. Then they have to look at them
when they edit them. And I think that is like
the most powerful information for them. About
a year after I started the school, it was a bit
of an epiphany. I just realized how far ahead
my online students were compared to my in -person.
students. And boy, did I stop and think about
that. I mean, there's a lot of dynamic in there,
but I thought about that. And one of the things,
when you record your work, well, there's a lot
of benefits, but one is it makes people feel
nervous. Now, sadly, I'm past that. But for a
long time, I got nervous when I turned on a video
camera because I was being watched by my video
camera. But that really helped with that transition
to the ring because this is how you feel nervous.
And now I'm taking a gold spot again this term.
And I took one last term. But what would happen
is when I was doing the video, I'm seeing it
from the point of view of the instructor instead
of being there with my dog. And then I'm seeing
all the problems. Like I'm like, I know what
she's going to say because I'm a dog trainer.
But when I'm by myself and the video camera is
not watching me and I'm not going to turn that
over to an instructor to get feedback, I don't
see things in the same way. The other thing is
when I give, I mean, we all have different styles.
When I was teaching classes, my feedback was
timestamped. So I would say at seven seconds,
I want you to look at your hand position. Then
I want you to look at what you did at 18 seconds.
And I want you to notice how your dog responded.
So I was very into the timestamping. When I'm
working with somebody in person, what you did
at seven seconds is you don't remember. You don't
know what your hand was doing. It's gone. It's
off your chart. So I can talk about what you're
doing right. I can talk about what you're doing
wrong, but you can't watch it with me. And I
think the students would go back and they'd be
like, oh, that's so obvious. That's so obvious
that, or, you know, walk in a straight line.
Now look at those lines on the ground and look
where you started and look where you ended up.
And they're just like, God, you're right. If
you tell somebody that in real time, they don't
mean to, but their first reaction is to be defensive.
It didn't happen. I didn't do that. Right. And
they don't say that, but you can kind of feel
that little bit of unsureness with some people,
a little bit of defensiveness. In a video, the
video doesn't lie and you're not in the situation
and you're not trying to figure out what to do
with your dog while you're talking to me and
you're not hot and cranky and whatever. You're
sitting in your house watching a video together
and going, I see it. I see it. And suddenly I
can almost feel the student being like, I can't
wait to get outside and do this better, which
is really different than when you're sitting
there with a dog who at this point might be totally
tired and done. So I felt that my students were.
Oh, and the other thing is I can explain the
why. Online, it's not that I don't do it in person,
but you don't remember it. It's just you can
only hold so much. When I write out lectures,
I know that they're in their reading brain. So
they're reading for a while and they're trying
to understand. And now they're in their working
brain. But if they forget, they go back to the
reading brain. And I took a couple of herding
lessons online with my puppy. And I also took
an in -person lesson. And I loved the in -person
because I loved the connection with a person.
but I don't remember anything. And I videotaped
and it wasn't good enough to go back and watch
it. When I did a lesson where I submitted a video
and then she reviewed it and she got out a whiteboard
and she was showing me sheep and all this. Oh
my God. When I went to my next lesson, I sat
down, I reviewed everything she said. I made
sure I had an exact plan in my head before I
walked out on that field. And it was one of my
best sessions because I was so structured, but
I was fresh and my dog was fresh. And I was still
in the car reviewing what I was supposed to do,
exactly what I was supposed to look like. I can't
do that when I'm standing with an instructor
in real time. At this point, my dog's exhausted.
He's already done several runs. So many things
are going on. And I'm also feeling like she's
watching me. I'm trying to respond to her. I'm
trying to watch my dog. I'm trying to watch my
sheep. So going forward, I think I'm going to
really do 95 % of my lessons online. I mean,
I'll do seminars when I have a chance and such.
But I just felt like, wow, this works for me.
And I know people are individuals and they need
different things. But I was like so happy. And
the other thing that happened is she said, I
know you didn't ask me about this, but there's
this other thing you need to know about. So she
told me about something because I didn't edit
my video. I just sent her like six minutes straight.
And I said, comment on all of it, anything you
want. So she saw something I didn't even know
enough to know that I had a problem. Like I'm
just too new. I think that can be really valuable.
Like you can get feedback on, I call it the spaces
in between. So you might not know that when you're
setting up, you disconnect from your dog and
you get your stuff. But in a video, I can point
out to you, hey, I want you to notice your dog's
expression when you walked away there because
you left your dog hanging and your dog didn't
know what to do. And you lost a lot of power
there. When I do that in person, I find it's
a lot harder. It's not that I can tell them,
but they don't. They don't see their dog's expression.
They don't see what happened for those 15 seconds
when they had their back to their dog. In real
time, I put a stop to that, right? But so they
don't get the impact of the failure. So I've
actually, I would say it's been very surprising
to me that I have found it to be more effective
than, I mean, the ideal is both because in person,
sometimes you just want to put your hands on
someone and just move their body. I mean, I do
that. That's why we have like camp. So I can
do that. But big picture, I love what I get.
And I've talked to people who teach seminars
and go to things and they say, I can tell the
FDSA students, I can, I can identify them. I
can tell from their handling. I can tell by the
things they do, the way they interact with their
dog. And I love that. And they see, you know,
it's, it's a notable difference. It's really
cool. They clearly are well, they're well -trained.
They understand they're paying attention. That's
pretty cool. Yeah, I think them seeing it. I've
been doing my homework reviews with video so
I can go see right here and have my little cursor.
And very quickly, I find after even just a few
weeks. they start seeing those things themselves.
And I think that's huge. And then sometimes they're
not, they're like, well, I can't see it yet in
real time, but that's okay. Like that's a huge
step, even just seeing it yourself. Now you're
really close to seeing it in real time. And that's
something people really struggle with. is reading
their dogs in general, but reading them and reading
them in real time and reading, because if you're
not, then more often than not, you don't even
know why the dog did what it just did, because
you're not reading what's going on. You're just
like, the dog did not do the behavior I asked
it to. Well, but why? Right. What happened five
seconds earlier? And on video, you can go back
and look at what happened five seconds earlier.
Right. And in real time, it's easy to forget
because you get wound up in the problem. So what
I tell people, like kind of regardless, videotape
your work. I just find it so powerful to go back
and look at even if you're doing all the review
yourself. And I don't watch all my videos. It
depends. But I usually I'll set it times five,
my video, whatever I did that day, and I'll watch
it. Because at times I was like, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Whoa, wait, wait, wait. What was that?
Right. And then I turn it down and I watch it
again because sometimes I've seen the most stunning
things. Like I had no idea. Like my dog's creeping
on his sit stay. I had no idea how much he was
moving. And then I had the video camera on him
once and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Because he does such tiny little steps that you
can't even see it in real time. Hey everybody.
So big surprise. I was not watching the time
and Denise and I talked for a very long time.
So we decided to split this into two episodes.
So we're going to stop this episode here and,
uh, but stay tuned. We will have the second part
out next week. All right. Thank you everybody
for listening. Thank you so much to Denise for.
giving us all her time and we'll see you guys
next week.