#125 - Liz Rose wrote “Girl Crush” + “Crazy Girl” + won a Grammy with Taylor Swift

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Speaker 1: I welcome to episodes, and I'm here with Liz Rose. And You've been a bit of a unicorn for this because I really have an approached you or Hillary Lindsay or Lori McKenna, and you three are collectively known as love junkies because I don't know, it's like you have someone that you really look up to. Yeah, I don't want to buy all three of you. It's like I don't want to bother them. And then you and I were at the softball game this past weekend and he said, hey, I'd like to do it, Bobby cast and I said, I will call you Monday, and we call Monday, and then two days later you're here. So I'm really happy that you came in. I'm a I'm a genuine fan. Well, I'm a fan of yours. It's like because it's so it's so different on my side because I look at these things that I go, why doesn't he ask me? Does he not like me? What did I do? What's what's the deal? Why didn't he ask me? So when I saw you, I was like, I want to do that because I know you and you're so approachable and you're so sweet. So I thought I'll just say it. He'll either say he'll make an excuse or will go yeah, And for me, I go, I just don't want to bother list. He's writing songs, she's gotta publish. I don't want to bother her. So maybe this is how my whole life has been with the girls Mike. Maybe it's they really want me to ask him out and I haven't, and maybe I just should do it constant absolutely. I mean it's a little bitty word like I was like, do say no, yeah? But they do yeah? Well do you say that? I was thinking a minute ago that I was thinking about subjects of songs because you were coming in and I was thinking what we're gonna talk about? And I was thinking about subjects of songs, and I was thinking to myself, I think that would be a really cool series to talk to people who have been the subjects of songs, because I've never even thought about that, nor have I ever heard that. Because what came to my mind was, Hey, there to Lilah, and I'd like to talk to Delilah, you know, from playing White Teeth. Hey there to Lilah. What's it like new? This whole song gets up about her? And it's massive. I've had a couple of songs written about me from a couple of different artists, and for me, that story really hasn't permeated. But it's weird. Carly Pearce is what I guess triggered it all. She was at the CMT Awards and she won for New Video and she was talking about the guy that broke her heart, and I'm going, this guy has been just dragged through the mud over and over again. Not only is the song playing over and I like Carly, but Carly keeps going, thanks for breaking my heart. That's gotta be a weird thing to be the subject of a song. Huh yeah, I don't think any I don't know if anybody's ever written a song about me. I don't know. But if you're in a room and you're going and someone's you're working with an artist, okay, and they they are like, I want to write this song about this person. Do you delicately like tiptoe around specific things you know you dive in. I mean, there are things you don't say if you know, But if if uh out you got to, you got you have to write the truth. And if they want to write about it. Then they've got to tell the whole truth, and um, you know, and then if you don't want anybody to you know, then you have to just go I'll just make out of a song, you know. But um, that's my favorite thing to do. I mean, I you know, I like to go where you got a boyfriend? Are you getting along you know? Or is your heartbroken? Let's talk about it because that's I think that's where the heart comes from, is digging in and making people tell you the truth. So let me give you an example of a bit on the other side of that. So I wrote the first book that came out a couple of years ago, and I was writing about my ex girlfriends and some relationships that I had, and I told the exact story, but I renamed them. I named them Betty Boop named so I gave the who they are they do. But I didn't want people to go to because they didn't ask for it. They didn't ask me to write about them. And so that for me was a very delicate thing. Does that ever pop up in your mind like this person didn't ask for it, but but we're making a run at them. Well, remember I wrote with Taylor Swift for years, so you know, she didn't care. She just let them have it, you know, whoever it was. But I don't know, you know, I have um I've made that those songs that record a couple of years ago, and one of the songs on there is called ex Husbands, And so when we wrote it, it was, um, you know, I just we just fell into it and I just kind of told the stories. And then later I got a couple of messages saying, you know which one of these guys am I from X's and I just kind of had to say, well, you know, it was just it was just made up. You know, you're a little bit of all of you and all of it. Um, that was a little awkward, yeah, I think, but that's what we do. I know, I know I was thinking about it before you got here. But I think that would be a pretty fascinating series if I could talk to people who had songs written about them and how it's kind of got to become a thing in their life, like they're just known as that person now, especially if they didn't have any notoriety to begin with. That. Yeah, that's a little um, that's a little unfair, but you know, I mean the Carly Pier situation. That guy works in town still? Oh see yeah, oh yeah. I mean Jillian Jacqueline, didn't you write her last song? It wasn't hate me, it's about you know, Jillian's that's about her boyfriend before this guy. And I'm just going, I like to talk to these dudes. Yeah. And do you think people find out that somebody's not in love with them anymore when they hear a new song that's about what I'm I feel like I'm made encounter, you know, it's like, oh, where did that song come from? Oh? Was my co writer? Yeah? Yeah, it was that. It was actually his story. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I mean, you know, we just make these things up. When you came to the door, I had cried Pretty in my head, which you know, which is Liz's last song, Carry Underwood, Cry Pretty, And it really wasn't gonna sing it to you when you walked up to the door, but it was when you were coming in, I was going, oh you sure, cry pretty. It just stays in my head. A pretty I mean, what about this one here? And she's amazing, She's so amazing, and um, I just you know, Hillary and Laurie and and Hillary is so close to her, So it was just it was just it was a gift. I mean, it was just, it was a gift. I know that you have a lot of rights and a lot of rooms, and it's tough to remember specific rights and what happens in the room. But do you remember sitting with Carry for this one? Yeah? I mean some, Yeah, Yeah, we we were I think we wrote a couple of songs. And um, I just remember how um I had never met her and written with her, and it was just so amazing to watch her and Hillary and and the way they work and and um, what a great writer Carrie is. Yeah, she's she's she's fantastic. She knew exactly what she wanted to say. It was really, it was really. I was just blown away whenever they say, hey, we're gonna write for Carry, because Carry had been off the map for a bit, I'm assuming she because I don't know the timeline when this song was written. Was it written before she went away? Yeah, so it was written. It was written on Yeah, it was written. Yes, it was written before she went away. While she was gone, It was written before she went away. Okay, so you're writing with Carrie and you know it's probably for the next project. But at the time of the right, you don't know if it's gonna make it on the record, much less be a single. Right, No, you don't know. You don't know that, you don't plan it. I was just um, I was just so excited to be in her, in a room with her, you know, and be part of that. And uh, you know, I I you just don't think about that. We write so many songs and you just hope that this sticks, you know, you hope, well, you know, she's she's a great writer, and she writes a lot. So you know, you just write the best song you can and write what's in the room, and write what what every that he wants to write, and you just wait it out. And we were, we were, we were, we were blown away. It's got to be kind of a lottery ticket that far back. Because what I've learned from having a lot of friends and a writers and just from you know, peeling around a bit writing myself, is that the longer you're write, the more you like the stuff you just recently wrote. Uh you know, I I could say that if I played a lot, and if I was you know, but for me. I'm doing so many things that I'm so busy and I write so much that I really write the song and then move on. And so it's a great, big, wonderful surprise when somebody cuts a song. I'm like, what you know, it's like, um, the new Kinney thing that's coming out. I have a song on there that I wrote years ago, really years ago. So how does that end up making its way all the way back around? Because he heard it when we wrote it. I wrote it with Travis metto Is. It's called Better Boat, and uh, Kenny had it on hold years years ago. I mean, I can't even I can't even tell you eight seven six, I don't know years ago, which which is the mark of a great song that will hang in there like that? And Kenny loved it. It just never worked for the projects as he would do records, and he's so amazing that he hung onto it and it happened to absolutely work for this project. So I just saw the track listing yesterday. It was like, whenever you see the track listing, that's kind of right, like it's it's a bit permanent. Once they announced it's on, and I don't go looking for it either. I usually have to get a text from somebody that says, have you seen this? So then I go, okay, you know, like I don't watch the charts and I don't look for things like that because I just you know, I don't give me the good news the good news, or give me the bad news later, or just don't give it to me at all comes out and I'm not on there. You don't play an instrument, which is a bit rare for songwriters in talent, even even a bit. I'm learning, I'm I'm learning guitar, I'm practicing. Yeah. You having an orthodox way of getting into music, which is you didn't start writing until your thirties. Yeah, thirty almost forty. So what was that story? How did you kind of get immersed into songwriting? Then? I my kids went to school, we were here, I wanted a job. A publisher hired me as a song plugger. I didn't know what that was. I met somebody to party, so a song plug or someone who just pitch a song, pitches songs. Yeah, and he liked my personality and he hired me, and um, I did that for a little while and kind of started my own publishing company, not knowing what I was doing. So you're plugging songs and that means you're going to places going this is this artist or this writer. He's like to pitch this song to you. Did you have any big songs? Do you remember plugging? Did you have any big successes? Do you remember John Barry? Changed my mind? Now that was mine? Um, Jason Bloom wrote it, and not a j I'm the worst names. I'm sorry a j um, but um, to this day, Jason will put it in a book or tell me. You know you changed my life because you've got that song cut. I was like, really, and now I know how that feels? You know? Um that? Uh? Were you super good at it? Is that why you thought I can do this? I? Well, I was lucky as an independent plugger that some big songwriters like Kent Blazie and Will Robinson and Jason Bloom let me have their catalog, which helped me get indoors because nobody knew me, so I would use their name. I've got a new Kent Blazie song, would you have a meeting with me? So that's how I got to know everybody, and I think I was pretty good at it. Um, I'm trying to think of other songs, Uh, Faith Hill, I Love the Way You Love Me. I was part of that. Come on, that's a massive one. Yeah. And and it was with another guy you know, was working at that company, and we went over and pitched it. So I say that I was part of it, you know, because I was there, and I can't you know. And then there's just songs here and there. They must feel like that. It comes to you so naturally that you want to stay. You not only want to stay in the business, but you want to take the next step off. Yeah, but I don't think about the next step. I fall on the next step. I mean, it's kind of like I was pitching songs. I was worshiping songwriters, you know. I love songwriters and artists, and and I had this, you know, some I ended up open starting a publishing company, King Lizard, and started one of the writers there. Um Kim McClain asked me if I want to write a song, you know, she was like, you should try start writing a song. Sometimes. We started writing we Gotta you know, Tricia cut and did you feel it was pretty easy? No? I didn't think it was easy. I knew how hard it was. I was and I really attributed it to I got like he to write with a professional writer. I didn't. I got to I got to skip a lot of steps that songwriters have to go through, you know, I didn't. Um. I was lucky that I got to write with great writers from day one, you know. And and because I was around him, so uh, we got a couple of cuts. That company closed, it sold, Jody Williams was buying it. He heard some of her songs. He was going to sign her as a writer. He called me and said, I've heard some of these songs and I think you're a songwriter. And I was like, no, I'm not. He goes, yeah, you're a songwriter and I was like, no not, and he was like, yeah, I want your songs. I want to sign you to a publishing deal. And I was like, this is crazy. If if people find out, they're going to think this is just it was. I was really scared. I mean, I was writing under the name of Gracie Sheridan, but I just didn't think that song if if the labels heard it, they would go, oh, now, Liz Rose is going to be a songwriter. You know how that is? I mean, I know Bart Butler went through it too. I mean, we just you're you're known to them as one thing. And then and I sure never pitched my own songs. That's why I was. I was. I was a really good song plugger. I could have pitched my own songs, but I was so scared that people would think I was such a fraud. So I so I gave all my publishing to Jody and signed a deal and he made me be a songwriter. Wow. Well, we're gonna talk about you getting into songwriting. First, I want to talk about sleep number for just one second. If you've been listening to this podcast or even to the radio show, then you know how much my sleep number bed has improved my quality asleep. And now I'm not actually gonna talk to you about the bed right here. I'm gonna talk to you about something called the dual temp individual layer, and it is quite innovative, smart, effortless cooler or warmer you decide, you just sad the dual temper layer to either side of the bed and sleep up to thirty cooler or warmer. The dual temper layer can be added to any mattress brand. It doesn't have to be a sleep number bed select from multiple temperatures boop with a touch of a button, just like that. 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I just I just thought, Okay, there's a little bit extra money each month, I'll do this. UM. So that's kind of how I I never looked at the big picture because I knew the big picture was not great. I mean, I've worked with songwriters, UM, but I didn't care. I was I had a publishing company, I was writing songs, and I had this thing over here, and I mean I just kept moving. I just keep going. I was on a flight once, I think it was from maybe Texas to Nashville, and I was getting off the flight. This is about five years ago, and that person I was saying, Hey, do you know what that was behind you us? I did not. She was that's the one who wrote all the songs with Taylor Swift. And I said, oh, I didn't. I didn't know that. And so I saw you then and I thought, you know, how about that? That's cool. I didn't. I didn't at that time. I didn't know any songwriters. I didn't really got into the world. You end up having friends that make their living by creating and either putting it out themselves or giving it to other people. And so now I remember back to that flight and first of all, going, why is the woman who wrote all the songs with Taylor Swift flying Southwest. That's what I was thinking, because I love Southwest. I love Southwest and people give it a hard time. But do you feel like that's been phase maybe two of your identity, the Taylor Swell because and now I didn't I know you as Liz rose from as a writer, more from the love Junkies than I do the Taylor Swift stuff. But I wonder where that falls into your phases in your in the creative part of your life. It's funny because, um, my first phase was songs about rain, and I was getting Lian Womac cuts and Tricia Yearwood cuts, and um, I had a certain thing that I did that everybody really really loved, which is why Taylor started writing with me. What was that and just the I don't know. I think it was the pictures, the descriptive if if I. Um, I learned how to do it and I and I and I was pretty good at it, just writing those pictures. And so I think that she heard and then she heard me sing a couple of those songs and asked me to write. So, um, my first phase was really songs about rain. You know, I felt like I was everybody thought I was oh man, she's cool. She's right with Pat McLoughlin, and they're writing, you know, songs like that. And then the Taylor thing happened, and UM, it was no different. I just you know, it was like my second or third RTE on Tuesdays or Wednesdays, I can't remember. So I just did it. This this girl showed up. She came in with a melody and an idea, and she was exciting and excited, and it was an hour and a half, two hours, and I just kept doing it, never really thinking about that. But when it really blew up, I was. I can remember people going, why are you writing with a fourteen year old? And I said, well, because she comes in and it's easy and it's fun. You know, I love listening to her stories. So I caught Once it blew up, you know, everybody was like, wow, I can't believe you were so smart to do that. I just did it because I like doing it. So that was a phase because suddenly I was the person that wrote songs for sixteen year old girls, and um, I had to go through a lot of um explaining to people that that was not me, it was Taylor and so um, and it was really easy to kind of lean back during those years, you know. Um, and then I kind of had to like really hit it to to get that to to go okay, but I can do this and I can. Yeah, and so crazy Girl winning a c M that year, um, kind of that that helped a lot. And then girl crushed for me. Um. And and perception wise it didn't go, oh, the Taylor Swift thing is off. It's just like it just added to it, you know, Um that the Taylor Swift years will always be part huge part, you know of what I did. And do you know if she called me right now, I'd go, you know, um, But do you feel like the Taylor stuff that you try to get a bit away from that? Now? Is it the first thing brought up everywhere? Because again I don't only know you as Taylor the Taylor writer. I know you as the the Love Jockeys writer. Well, I don't try and get away from it because I'm really proud of it. It's it's a huge part of my life and my career and I and a lot I had a career before, but my career is you know, it will always be connected to having those Taylor songs. And I'm really proud of them and I and I never you know, I just I'm so lucky, you know, um, and we wrote such great songs. Um. So I don't try and get away from it. What I do. What I do try and do and I don't always is that I continue to get people that want to interview me and want and they start talking and then they don't want to talk about anything but Taylor. And I'm like, that was kind of ten years ago. And I'm not going to give you information on Taylor. I don't have any. They're digging for Taylor and they're trying to make like this is not what we're doing, but they try and make their story. You know, they're they're whatever they're doing is is that they can you know, highlight Taylor's name in it. You know what I'm saying. Well, to be fair, I think people just want clicks the same way the songs want plays. And if they're chasing a click, the kind of story, what's the best headline to put in there? But and I just wondered that about you. If so many people are coming to you to get the clickbait stuff to go, it's not even click bit like it's interesting, you know, the fact that you know, Taylor Swift was playing Tim McGraw that the first time Amy met her at our radio station. Like, you wrote that with Taylor, right? Did you get right? Timarat together? I mean, when you sit down and write a song about an artist again, we're talking about writing about personal people, about people that had to be weird to get that to Tim right? You know, is it so long ago? No, I can, It's funny. I she was just sincere. She said, I don't want to write a song called when you think Tim McGraw. And I thought, okay, I mean, you know, if you don't cut it, nobody, nobody's gonna cut it. But okay, you want to write it. It's your song, these are your songs. Let's just do it. And I just didn't overthink it, you know. That's that's what I did with her. I just didn't overthink it. I felt like she was writing her songs and I let her and that's why it worked between us. And so I thought, god, that's nervy, you know, it's like okay, um, and then she, you know, saying it to Tim McGraw's crazy. I remember seeing that words show I think you sing it. That is that cool for you. Yeah, I was just so proud of her. I was. I was always like a proud mom with her, you know anything, you know, just because she always reinvented the wheel, as she still does. I'm gonna get over to a crazy girl just a second, Uh, Tim McGraw, picture to burn to drop some my guitar, Fearless White Horse, want to gramm me for that one? You belong with me all too well. Then you come into my life as one of the power three, this group that gets together. All three of you individually are super strong. But it's like the Avengers, right like that, the Avengers of songwriting. And so I think when you and I first met was girl crush whenever, because I'll thank you very much for everything you did again in the same way that you're saying you just showed up. I just thought the song was good, and I thought people weren't giving a fair shot. I didn't know there was this magical message that people would love and or there was nothing except I think this is a good song. I thought people were getting pissed for no reason whatsoever. I think I agree with that. So there was I didn't go, oh, I'm about to shake it up with this at all. There wasn't three Steps Ahead. But I heard this song and this is how it really happened. As I was in New York and it was right before the album came out. I was with a little Big Town and I was talking to Kimberly and Karen, which is always the case. I was talking to those two and I said, hey, I know Dave Drink is about to go number one and the record is not out yet. That come out the next day, I said, this Girl Crush song is awesome. I'm gonna play it tomorrow. It wasn't a single in anyway. Yeah, no, they said maybe the fourth I think, which means never, which they may be telling that to everybody on every song. And so I played it and I saw the action of people and my people. It was all like, wow, what a great song. And it's shot that morning to number two on iTunes, and again I went, oh wow, Like people really are showing me what they like. And that's what I try to try to follow what my people tell me they like. I try to predict trends, but I also try to watch my people and see what they're liking and try to give them, you know, it's some when people know our internet, what we want to see based on what we've seen. I mean, isn't that how it was supposed to be? In that how radio ship? Because started? I mean, I don't really understand your business. And I think that's why I don't understand the podcast. Yeah, and I play it and then I play it some more. What my company does is they do read they go people are complaining they really weren't to me, but so they tested it. They didn't research on me and the song together, and so they put it in all. What they do is they put it on this on this computer, right, and they say, okay, listen to the people, put headphones on, and they tell us your reaction. And I'm talking about the song and like three different breaks on the earth through three days. And you can have a knob and you turn the knob down if you don't like it, you turn it up if you do like it. And so the researchers all over the place, and but it consistently at the end was up after I kind of told the story, and so they're like, hey, you know, you do you you know which was They've been able to tell me that a lot over the years. I've messed up a lot, but pretty good batting average, and I said, I really believe in this song. Well then Emily Are from the Washington Post called me and said, hey, I'm but you know what's happening. She was listening to the show and Kimberly and Karen were in, just those two, and I was like, why isn't we playing this song? He was pissing me off? And so she heard that segment. Did the story in the Washington Post interviewed me for it. I asked her, don't put me up front, because I don't want this story to be about me, and she started with a DJ like Iowa or something in the story and boom, controversy like crazy, and it's the greatest thing. If there's nothing illegal, it's the controversy is the greatest. It is. So you gotta tell me. When this song first starts, you know, I'm playing it a little bit. You know that You're like, I wonder what's happening here? Right? Did you think there was some life maybe earlier than they had said. Yeah, we were really we were excited and what was weird was that that that happened and you were playing it and then a couple of people called to do articles on the record, but they wanted to just they just wanted to talk about girl Crush, and so we were like, okay, well we wrote a cool song, and like you know, Shane mcinally was texting and going, oh my god, this song and we had other writers and and that's the other thing. When you when your peers start texting you and talking about telling you how great your song is, you go okay. So we just thought we had a cool song that would never be a single. Um, but we were happy with the cut. We were blown away with the cut. You know, we didn't uh you know, it was we just couldn't believe what a great job they did on it. So when the controversy thing came up, we were like, what, well, we never even we never even had time to think like that. So it kind of it was that was kind of a moment where we thought, okay, it's over. Was there ever a point, yeah, where you're like, oh, this is is so not good, it's going to kill anything? Really? Yes, yeah, we all we all got on the phone. We were like and I think we even got on the phone with Karen and we were like panicked. You know because you think. Yeah, when they finally decided to make it a single, we were like, yeah, this is so cool. And then it was like, okay, it's gonna be one of those that dies in the fifties and yeah that was you know, good try. But so it was amazing to see what it did and it gave up oh and a bit. It was me being obnoxious, but mostly with me believing that the song was fantastic. It was perfect, even a perfect storm for me, because again there was I don't have this you know, amazing uh song predicting machine. To me, I miss some, but I always like to take out and you know, take risks on songs that I love and artists that I love. But as that song, it, it did almost die in the forties because no one will play it, no one would touch it, and it just kept getting researched. It kept getting this this razy research. It's never accurate, but it's still used and they just kept testing it and then it just started to trickle. But what was happening whilt people were buying it. And this is before the streaming really took over. People were buying it like crazy. So any station that wasn't really playing it. There was a story of consumption. So the label could go, you go, hey, look at look at your area, because we can see based on regions, who's streaming, who's buying what. Yeah, it's broken down to that. You go, oh, well, let me look in your town, right, And they could go to these markets and go, well, in Austin texts, it's the number one downloaded song, how are you not playing it? So that was really the story of how that song went from the forties to get him back on the map. And it's just so amazing, and it goes back to it takes a village, right, so amazing how many people worked on that song. And if I remember, because I mean I felt like a good few months of my life was in and around that song. And I even tried to get away from it. And I remember telling Karen and Camberly like, don't don't talk about me anymore about the song because you have other radio companies go oh, if it's if Bobby was inn on this song, Earlly, I don't want any to do with it. So I said, hey, you don't feel like you owe me anything, just you don't even know me right now, So going and push the song, and as it started to climb, you know, top fifteen, top ten, it was such a monster that it was undeniable. It was such a monster. And then they were in and I said, hey, what's that? Did you guys write this as before I write with Karen? Is that what happened? Yeah? Yeah, we wrote it that morning. Um uh, it was early and Laurie said, hey, I got a song idea I want to write. I want to write girl crush. And I was like, no, we're not writing girl crush. It sounds that sounds like we'd really had to think of. We don't have very much time. Laura's going, no, no, no, no, I mean it's like you know that hashtag we see girl crush. I mean, come on, we could write it would be really cool. And and as I'm telling her, no, Laurie, that sounds like we don't have time to really because it does sound like an idea that you really got to think about. And really I didn't want to write a guy song, you know. And so in the meantime, Hillary came in and Laurie said, and I know you've heard this story, LORI said, Hillary, I want to write a song called girl Crush, And Hillary literally sat down with the guitar and saying the first four lines of the song, and we both jumped on the couch and went, yes, let's write that. That's exactly where. And I can remember we were talking so fast and and it's about the girl and she wants you know, she's got a crush on the girl, but not really because she wants the guy and she can't have the guy. So she's talking about what, you know, wanting to be that girl, and we're I mean it. It happened so fast that I can remember we were just throwing things back and forth to get it written, and we wrote it in probably hour and a half two hours, which is crazy fast for a song. So you gotta tell me about this love Junkie, because I know you three, but I don't really know about how you guys started and where when the name happened? Like, were you three just randomly friends and wrote together? Did you decide you gonna be the wrong? LORI and I had written for years and and I had never written with Hillary? Um is that right? Had I? I may have written with Hillary a couple of times, but they were trying to get Laurie and Hillary together and get more dates with me and Hillary. So somebody and I think it was Scott and Daniel and I think it was all the publishers got together and said, what if we put Hillary and Lorie and Liz together. Let's put them together right for a day. So we got together and that day we wrote Sober and we wrote Savior Sin Sober and Savior Sin from a Little Big Town. And I think we were talking about um a line in the song, and we were going, oh, we're just you know, we're just a bunch of love junkies. And I was like, that's our name, love junkies. We're gonna be the love chunkies, you know. And so we just started um talking about that and we're gonna write We're gonna do this all the time. And then we started this because we had two days straight that we were writing together. And then we decided that they would come and stay with me and we'd slumber party and right for three days like a camp. Yeah, because Hillary's in town, Lori's in Boston, and you're here, and so I guess lord Lorie has to come to town. Do you guys ever go Because a lot of my friends go up to Lorie's place in Boston right at her house. Does did the Love Jackie's ever convene at Lori's or do you have your own same place? We've talked about it, but Hillary has a you know, a baby, she's got a little one, so and and Lorie has a lot of them. So um, it's just it just works better at my house and and we just you know, it's worked so far, so we just decided not to mess with it back And just one final thought on on Girl Crushes that as it was all happening and I'm watching things start to bubble good And depending on what you think is bad, I think controversies awesome. If no one's getting hurt, Like I love controversy, you might think that I do. It's as long as long as no one's getting hurt there's something illegal happening. Yeah, I love the controversy. So I'm staring at it, going this may actually lift. This song is is people knowing about it and then buying it, and they kimberly caring to come in and give me, give me a Girl Crush hat. And I thought, well, this is cool where they have And then I saw christ Apleton wearing the hat it is kids. The kids, yeah, And I thought, okay, now it's artists cool, so it's gonna be cool for everybody else. Got drips down, you know, the artists go, this is cool, and then we would look at it old the artists is cool, and then it drips down to our people. So I thought when christ Apleton was wearing that hadn't a picture, I thought, Okay, they got it. At least they've got a real shot and making this a big old hit. Now that that's that was cool, that this town really I got behind it. I do have a plaque over there too, that girl crush when whenever it hit half a million and then it's hit way beyond that then, but I don't I don't have any plaques. I have five total, and in the room I have Kelsey's number one, because you know Kelsey and my relationship earlier. We we took it on our first tour. You know, I I love me like you mean. It was kind of a girl crushed project to me too. I just thought it was there and so I kept and then Scottie mccriss five more minutes. He didn't have a record deal, and so before the song was even released to started playing it, it got him a record deal, then it became a number one. So I think I have three plaques in here. I think I have christ Jansen somewhere else. But yeah, that's one of the songs that I really am proud that I could just be a part of. And what's so amazing is that all of that is based on you being a champion of a song. It's not you know what I mean. I mean that's pretty amazing. I feel like, you know, I miss but I don't ever miss in my heart, if that makes sense, Like I missed because I just think, well, maybe it just wasn't the right time for this, but I love it. I will not also, on that same note, go to go to bat for a song that I wanna be like, this is my song, I need you to do me a favor. I can't do it. I feel like no one brought me in to be the music guy either. So the music thing is just a passion. Yeah, I'm brought in to be the guy that talks about interesting things, be funny, you know, talk about the news. No one had any interest in me breaking music ever, and so that I'm able to do it, it's just a bonus. I never wanted to program radio stations. I never wanted to some of these other big platforms to say, hey, come run the whole platform. You know, there's like to streaming, but I don't. I don't ever want to program. I want to be able to create and then also and push what you support right right, It's like it's almost like song plugging. It's like pitching songs. It's it was always hard to pitch a song you didn't like, you know, because you can't sit there and look at somebody oat this is a great song. And they're genuous to yourself, like, yeah, it feels kind of dirty. You let me talk about bombas for one second. Now. This is cool because how often do you think about your socks if you're like I used to be, Probably not that much. But there are socks that are really awesome. They're called bombas b O M B A Y s. Bombas are what I think, at least when I look at my sock drawer, the most comfortable sock that I have. They're made from premium cotton. They stay warm in the winter, cool in the summer, and every pair comes in with a built in blister tab an innovative art support and stay up technology, which is important to especially if you're moving around. There's a seamless toe and you get that seam in your toes and you can't separate your toes. Many colors, patterns, linked styles. 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I mean the Taylor stuff was so good and it was I got so lucky, and you know, we when you're sitting at the Grammys and you know, you win a Grammy and you went, you know, you're like going, okay, well that was fun. That was over. Um, you know, and it's hard to it's it's it's hard. It's hard to get a hit, and then it's hard to get a nomination because there's so many great songs, you know. So suddenly this five year old song was a hit. I mean this one here. Yeah that it took that long, huh yeah. And we uh we wrote it for Lee. I thought were writing it for Lee. Bryce, me and Lee. I wrote with Lee and I thought we were writing it for Lee, and then um, his song comes out. Um crazy helped me. It's another crazy song. Uh oh brain sorry. Um. So I was like, well, he's never gonna cut that. But this new band, Eli young band wanted it, and and Lee was holding onto it, and then I think they kept asking and he finally was like, yeah, cool, y'all go cut it. And you know, we had no idea. We had absolutely no idea. I would never ask you to name a name, nor am I here. But here's the situation. You have a song crazy girl esque and the artist comes along and you're like, I just this song is too good. Oh no, I would never do that. I don't do that. Do people that I don't know? But I don't do that. I look, A cut is a miracle. And I can remember writers that were not very happy about this band called the Dixie Chicks when they started cutting songs in town. And I saw how that happened, and just how, you know, I just I was I was working for people that were like, you know, yeah, spanned, these girls called the Dixie Chicks have my song on, you know, hold, and I don't know. And so I kind of learned from that. I learned from watching other writers, you know, because you write a song and sometimes you think, well, a lot of writers think that it should go to the top and first, and pluggers think that, and publishers think that, and that's the right way to think. I can't afford to think that way. And I if they're if they're talking like that, I let them go do it. But I don't cast songs as a writer. I just I write it and I send it out into the world, and whatever happens happens. I mean half the time I don't even know song has been cut. Is that rights? It's sometimes you just get a song produced and it's like, hey, we cut your song. Yeah I don't. I mean it's crazy and and and as a publisher, I don't always know all our songs that are getting cut. They have to tell me. Um one was playing the other night and somebody said, what do you think about your so and so cut? And I was like, oh, is that ours? I'm just busy. I'm busy. I have a life, and you know, I'm I'm trying to keep up with all our writers and luckily they're all getting cut. So it's you know, and stuff that's not out or it just came out last week. But so, um, a song you're talking about specifically, I do you want to tell us? Or no, I can't remember what it was. It's interesting cause you have a publishing company and I wouldn't have known what that was until recently. So you pay writers to write songs, hoping that those songs will make you more money than what you're paying the writers. It's a business. So what who writes for you? And how many writers you have? I have Emily Shackleton, who just wrote who wrote every little Thing with Carly and Buzzby? Um? I had, and she's been with me seven years since we started. So that's your song. I'm talking about Carly in that song? Is that your every little thing? Yeaheah? I mean that's about the dude dudes in town somewhere. Yes, yeah, I don't even know. I don't know who he is. No, no, no, I don't, I don't. Um. Let's see Phil Barton, the fabulous Phil Barton and what we wrote a kids song together? What's my favorite song? When when I grow up? Bucking me? What it's crazy about that song is I wrote probably a third of that in my sleep, and I still have the voice, Mamma. I woke up and I was like, because I want to I want to do a kid's record. I want to inspire kids. I want to be inspirational, motivational. And I took my phone out. I don't know how to write. I mean really, I just they just say things and write things down, but I don't know how to write. And I took my phone out and I went boop and I had to record, and I was like, I want to be a fire man. And I hit it and I sent Eric Passley a text. I said, Eric, who's a friend of mine, dear friend, so would you would you write this song with me? I'm doing a kids record. I was like, yeah, he goes. I want to bring this guy along. So who is that? He goes? You will love him. He's like from another country in Australia. She said. He used to do Thomas to Tank songs on Thomas the Tank Tour. That's all right, so me him and Phil Barton wrote when I grew up and I play, I still we play. I'm so jealous. I make Phil play at every show he does. And people send me tweets all the time They're like, this dude's playing your song. I was like, that dude wrote the song with me. I know, I sing along and we oh, it's so much fun. I love that song so much and feels great. He's fantastic and he gets a lot of Canadian cut. He gets a ton of Canadian cuts, a ton of Canadian singles. Is that just an area that he's kind of weighted in and he knows the people to work with to get that like cornered that market. You know, it's yeah, but it's really amazing. They just he just he's like me, he says yes, and he got on this Canadian thing where he said yes. And every time an artist comes to town, if you know, Phil has to write at eight o'clock at night or a Saturday or Sunday, he's there and so, um, you know that's why that's working for him. Um. So he's doing great. He's been with us forever. Um Emily Phil, Emily Phil Cameron Bedell who's fantastic and fairly new but doing really well. He got a couple of cuts, I think a couple of weeks ago. Um, just you know, new acts and which is and you just kind of have to wait and see if it's going to come out and what's gonna happen. Um My praying with Seth Ennis. Seth has a new songing out. So but how what's you guys a relationship where his publisher we're a covid or with Warner chapell Um. Seth is our boy. Yeah, because you're like, hey, you should listen to set And I had Seth actually for the first time this last weekend. He was playing outfield for I've never been him before. I don't know Seth. No, I don't, I don't know, I don't know anybody. He is the nicest kid in the whole. I mean, I don't know Seth do we haven't. I have to ask Mike if I know. Having come talk about call your mama because it is. Um that song is killer, so great. You have all these writers that write for you and has that a lucrative business? I hope? So? Yeah? Okay, Um, I mean we're new, we're new. We're doing okay though. Everybody you know. Seth has a new song out, and and Phil's doing really well, and and Emily's doing really well. And um, what are Jeff Middleton? Do you know Jeff Middleton? He was in the Dirt Drifters? Do you remember the Dirt Okay? Well, Jeff wrote with us for a while, and um, he's not with us anymore, but we're very close to him. We're very good friends. He has a new Jason L. Dean single, Is that right? Yeah? So that's ours? So what yours? You have? Drown's Whiskey? That's your song? Oh? You get me printing money with that one? Hey? Look, I mean it's just like turn the money machine on folks. That's a good one. And UM, so we had Jeff Middleton's we have his catalog. Um we have a Dutch um female producer named Fimke who is amazing. Um, I don't even want to use you anymore, cutting you off on purpose. So anybody she didn't say, it's because I stopped. You wrote God Made Girls with ray Lynn and someone who I really likes, Nicole Gallagan, like she's just I'm like ray Lyn too. But as a right Nichol has done this before. Um something that when Weird Al parodies you, because I was looking at some of the Weird Al period parody one of the Tailor song, that's the story that kind of feature of your flay behind it. Thank you when you didn't know the song. I think I got an email that he was going to do it. So he didn't ask you because I think he did. I'm sure he did. I'm sure I got something. They just nobody tells me. I do remember this. It was a long time ago. It was I'm a big weird Alf fan because when I was a kid, I was listening to all the Weird Al and that was a big inspiration for me. I do a lot of some parodies. But as I was going through it was like, oh, weird, al did I did the list song? I thought that, But you don't do you't make any money off that? I don't know. You don't know. You don't know. I don't I don't pay attention to that. I just have a good business manager. Yeah, I have a great business manager. I have a great business manager. Isn't it crazy? I mean, you know, it comes in and I put it into the publishing company, so you know that's I just I just keep going. Can I, you know, go to Nordstrom a couple of times a month? You know, I just wait until he tell me, Now, how do you feel about the female stuff happening right now? Uh? As in, I don't know, I asked, that's that's so broad, because I just wanted to see where you go. I think I don't I Well, first of all, I'm older, so I'm realistic, and I've been through a lot. I've been through a lot in my life, and so I'm probably a little bit you know, put on your big girl pants. Girl. Um, I do like some of the things that are changing and happening. And then when you go to the music business side. Um, I think there's some great females out there. I think that female we can't get away with following each other. Females can't get away with copying what's hot. They have to be a better than the boys and they have to be more uh uh, what's the word different? Whatever? You know? Um, you can't put out a bunch of females that are alike that follow each other. It just doesn't work. And I don't know why. Is it a bit unfair that all the dudes sound the same? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's unfair. It just means you have to be better. It means you have to invent yourself and and you have to you have to follow your own path. Taylor followed her own path. You know, everybody thought it was gonna be like lean rhyme, So it wasn't. She followed her own path. Marin follows her own path, Casey follows her own path. Um, you know, little Big Town sticks to their path. Carrie has her lane, Miranda has her lane. I mean, I think you have to do that. And UM, I don't think it's anything that that you can I don't think it's fair unfair. You either strike accord with someone and they go, Okay, you know we can make this, we can give this a shot, or you just don't. I mean, I don't know. You know. I work with a couple of female artists and it's frustrating, but you just I just I. I came back with our songs have to be better. The music has to be better, and when it's better, you'll get your shot. I don't think it's fair that it can't be equally as good to get the same results. Now, I don't think just in music. I'm talking about the world, right, it's right. Right now, you're talking about a culture problem from the beginning, where a man and a woman are doing the same job and a man is making a dollar and one's making seventy cents, and that's not fair. And it's what's happening right now. All things are equal, it's it's going to the mail, right. But it's always been that way, and that doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it right. So looking at it, you go, I understand why, which is what you're saying, Like, this is the environment that I'm in and how I'm going to work in it. I look at it and go, well, maybe I can help change the culture for three, seven eleven years from now. I'll tell you something to happen without saying a name, because it's a it's a really dicey thing for me to have to have stepped out in publicly said Okay, I'm gonna try to help change the culture of females. And I think that's fantastic. Well, it comes with a lot of people upset behind the scenes too. So there was a there's a female artist. Um, it's no one I've dated. I just want to say that question. But someone I know and as female artist, sent a song to one of whatever whatever gatekeeper is, you know, someone who runs one of the big either radio companies or streaming platforms or satellite. They are all these different different entities. They're like five of them, right, there's like a gatekeeper with each of them. And so she sent one of I saw him to the one of the gatekeepers and she said, hey, are you going to do do this song? What do you think about it? And he goes, oh, you're a female, don't just have Bobby play it? And I have the text message because she's screenshot and sent it to me and she said, hey, listen, I think what you're doing is awesome, but now people are whole ding it against us in other areas. So it makes me not want to do anything like That's that's the problem for me, is like I'm trying to help, but then I see sometimes my what I try to do actually affects things in a negative way. Yeah, but you gotta just keep doing what you're doing. That's just one person, but it's a big one. It's a big person. It's someone that you would go, oh my god, like that's who's running this thing, and it would really refresh everybody. And it's almost to the point where I would just go and post it online and be like here it is. But then I'm trying to get in the programming race horse business, Like I'm not trying to outprogram people. So that's frustrating when I see that happening to female artists just because they're female, and that's crazy, and it makes me not want to do as much because I don't want to hurt anybody. Yeah, but you gotta stick. I mean, you're doing stuff for guys too, you know, So I don't have to be as obnoxious though, because I can just go here's a good song with females have to go, here's a good song and you need to pay extra attention to it and not be a douche. But you male pds who are scared too. It's just that. So did you play the song? She sent it to him. I've never heard the song. It's a new song that she's like, Hey, she sent it to this guy, this head whatever to listen to to give feedback. I still have never heard the song, but she wanted to. She's awesome. I mean, she's okay. I'm no, no no, no, you don't have to. I'm just saying she just she did that and then she didn't even she just showed it to you and said, look what happened. Listen to this story. So my ex girlfriend is Lindsay, right, and we broke up because everyone was like, hey, we're not gonna play her. She's dating Bobby. We can't have her be a success because it raises his profile. Isn't it crazy that it's wrong with these people? So our relationship ends six months ago, right, we're still friends. Um, it's a little sensitive at times with us because we never were planning to break up, never wanted to do. Nothing bad happened between us, but we can't date. We've absolutely put a line that we're never gonna date again. That's just how it goes because she needs her she wants her career. But that that's why we stopped dating. So but isn't that absurd that she has to do that, that you have to do that? Level one absolutely, Level two I talked to I talked to her once a week or so still, and so she called me and she said, hey, am I gonna say a namous but she goes. They asked if we were still dating, and I was like, why would they even care? First of all, they shouldn't care to begin with. Secondly, they cared if we're she wasn't. They don't know if we were secretly dating, so they can punish you again. It's just not fair because the dude wouldn't have to go Guys don't have to go through it. It's amazing what guys get away with. And I think dating Lindsay showed me from a bit more the inside what what the female struggle is. And I'm very thankful for that relationship, if anything, for that part of it, because I was able to see through her day to day that it's a whole different ballgame for females. Yeah, it's it's I've had people ask me, um, I mean when when you're working with a female arts the first thing they say, as well, we got too many girls over here or you know, and you go, Okay, well this one's gonna be different and better and that's cool, you know. And and I've have people ask me that asked me, you know what, uh what job do you think? What? What is? What have men kept you from doing in this business? And honestly, I can say nothing that I know of, you know, because I never looked at it as male or female. The things that you know, the jobs I did, I just did them, you know. Um, but I see the struggle for female producers. Um, even less than songwriters are the number of female producers. Yeah, well it's going to change. It's it's it's changing. I think it's I really think it's going to change. And don't you think of it. I just go to the culture all the time that it's a lot of times it's little girls not being told that these are options for you and not assumed that the young girls are wanting to get into music business. Same thing with astronauts. I was reading a story about how you know, you go to Walmart and the boys section and all these NASSA shirts, they're none of the girls sections. That's culture. That's what we're seeing. And even though someone's not going specifically to you, going hey, you can be an astronaut, it's also not being put in front of you equally as it is. Yeah, that's true. So that's always mine. Like I'll try to affect the culture because I'm not gonna affect tomorrow. I can't, you know, I don't think any of us can really affect tomorrow. No, no, but but you know, I think so much is happening now that you know it. Maybe my grandkids won't it won't be as hard, and it won't be I mean, we've seen it get better until the world ends, I mean, and it could be in the nex hundred years for sure. I mean it's changed dramatically, but it you know, it takes one person like you in your job. If if one person does it in each job, you know, um, it'll start changing. If you don't, if you don't, go, well, there's nothing I can do about it, you know, but you're doing something, you know, so I I guess that's I don't know. I think it's just hiring more girls make sure they get paid properly like the boys. It's also a common sense thing. My staff. I have eight people on my staff for them or emails. I wished seven of them more emails. There's so much smarter. It worked better, no offense. I'm just saying all that aside, all the equality equality like that. By the way, they'll just go. They'll do any job. By the way, they don't. They never go. Well, that's not my job. Well, so in my radio studio, I have your your record Swimming Alone. That so tell me because again you I have never heard you defining yourself as if just a pure listen to listen to me be an artist. Yeah, because I'm not. So you created this record, So tell me about this. Well, I over over the last maybe four years. I started four years ago. I started coming up with these titles, and when I would try to think about writing them, I couldn't do it with co writers. I couldn't do it and write them to be pitched. And the first one I came up with was Swimming Alone. And and any time I would think about writing it, I would like. I would like, I've got to write that's my life. I gotta write my story. And uh, my my daughter Caitlin Rose, who's a singer songwriter, said let's let's write that. You need to write that that's your story because my mom used to say that they couldn't find me when I was two and I was out in the backyard swimming alone. And then when Mother's Day, I was living in Dallas and none of my kids was like one thirty and none of my kids would call me yet, and so I was just out in the pool, floating around by myself. And when my daughter Caitlyn called, I was complaining. I was like, nobody called me. I just out there swimming alone. She becaues, Mom, you need to write that song. Go ahead and write that song. So that's what started it. And then I had these you know, these I kind of dug into my my life. I had never done that writing songs. I had already always written somebody else's story. Um, so it was really fun to write yellow Room and that can't call you what you have to like? I see you getting at emotional over there, Well it's about my dad. I thought you were swatting a fly at first, that's about my dad, so still personal. Huh, I still hear it, it's still it feels fresh. Yeah, because I don't listen to these. I don't listen to these very often. Um so, but that was you know, those those are my life, that all those songs are my life. I wrote that with Natalie Himby and Caitlin Smith and Lorie helped me finish Swimming Alone, and my brother was on it, so it was fun. It was fun to just dig through and write them. And then you know, I have five brothers and sisters and and my mom, so then I had to go play it for them and and see what they had to say about it, and uh and and unknowingly, the first song I wrote for it was Sacred Ground with the love Junkies. Swimming Alone. Feel a bit more vulnerable putting out a record yourself, Yeah, it was, but I didn't. I didn't you know. First of all that mc mcinally said I want to produce this. A second of all that that people like Jody Williams and and and and Mac and and my kids said go ahead and write it. And then I was going to have Lori and Natalie and Hillary and all of them sing it, and Mac went, uh, these are your songs. You don't have to be the best singer of the world go singing songs. So that was kind of that was scary. Um. And then I just didn't I didn't really go for the you know, I just really kind of did it for myself. And I do it, you know, I have it at shows sometimes. And I felt really good. It felt really good, and I felt like I wrote everything I wanted to write and probably will never do it again because I I got who knows, who knows, but I got to write all the songs I wanted to write. It was fun and tell the stories. Plugger Publisher, number one writer, Grammy Winner. And I was too scared to invite you up. I thought, you say no, and I'm so and and and just all honesty. We're booked out for a long time in this show, right, I mean people where we had to beg people at first to do this. Now it's I'm proud of it because people are going, hey, can I get in, and we're like seven weeks out. We're like, yes, we'll get you on December of two. You know, so you literally asked me on Saturday and you're here on Wednesday now, Like, even if you don't know, that's the amount of respect and admiration that I have for what you do. I love you how kind you've been to me when you didn't have to be. I'm trouble sometimes, you know, and so yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you, I love you well, thank you, and and tell tell the whole world that's the Hello. May I should get set up here sometime, you should? You know. Seth also has a Top twenty with UM with hooked set Yeah, Seth will set Seth Road. It isn't that crazy? Like why don't you buy that money machine? Is it print all the time? And I'll tell you. I mean, I have to say this that my most proudest moment of anything I've ever done will be this year at the bm My Awards to get on stage to Whatnot and watch Emily Shackleton get her first being my award. That's what you do it for. That's why I'm you know, that's probably why I was a writer. That's why I'm a publisher. So that's going to be pretty amazing. Well, I think we've said all the things we've done an hour we did awesome I could sit here with you, like for two days and talk. It's interesting episode from Liz Rose. Have a really inspirational story, and I like your method you just and maybe because I adhere to the similar method just put one ft in front of the other. Well, I love that. I love just just go. It's the falling up mentality. And sometimes things are gonna work right. But you know what, when it doesn't work a rout, you're gonna learn a lot from why it didn't work right, and then you can put that into the basket and when it does work right. So yeah, I admire that. Liz Rose. Thank you, Liz, Thank you, Bobby