The Truth About Coming Home As An Olympic Medalist At 14 | Tom Daley

 I'm standing on the end of the board, prying my eyes out, refusing to dive into the pool. My coach says to me, Tom Daley will never be a diver for as long as he'll live. How many Olympics? Five. How many medals? Five. Five.
 14 year old in the 2008 Beijing Olympics. Olympic gold at the 2020 Olympics. Best natural talent in 20 years. Please welcome the finalist, Thomas Daly. Andy pulled me aside and said to me, do you want to go to the Olympic Games?
 Yeah, I want to go to the London 2012 Olympic Games. No, do you want to go to the Olympics in Beijing 2008? He's talking to a 12 year old at this point. I was shocked to learn that you came back from the Olympics and the bullying that you endured in school. I used to feel things very, very deeply. The bullying through what people used to say to me. Let's talk about that.
 I was falling in love, then I was told, the person that I'm falling in love with is going to be bad for me. When the day comes that you stand on the end of that diving board and you're not scared, something's gonna go wrong. The fear is what stops you making mistakes. What does a guy who thrives on pressure and the next competition do now in retirement?
 Welcome to The Person Who Believed In Me. I'm David Begnaud. We like to think the people who change our lives saw something special in us maybe right away. But Tom Daly's story is not that neat. When he was a young diver, scared and emotional on the board, his coach, Andy Banks, didn't see an Olympian. He wasn't sure Tom had the mental strength to actually handle it. But he stayed. He coached him anyway. He pushed him. And over time, that doubt turned into belief.
 Tom went on to become one of the most decorated divers in British history. And today he is here to talk about the coach who almost counted him out.
 then never stopped backing him. Welcome to the show, Tom Daly. Thank you for having me. Great to have you. I watched on the eve of this interview the documentary, which I would suggest everybody watch on the Olympic Channel, which made me feel all the emotions. I cried watching you gold medal. I cried listening to you talk about your dad. And I found it so fascinating because I knew you were coming on to talk about your coach, Andy, how the person you chose was.
 to be the person who believed in you, was not exactly the guy who believed in you in the beginning. No. Okay? No. So let us, and I have it. Oh my gosh. Voila. That's so funny. This actually was the first European senior championships that I won. Wow.
 I think I was 13 years old here. And at this point, I'd already qualified for the Olympic Games, which is kind of crazy to think, looking at this young child, to think that I'd just come back from Beijing, the World Cup, where I'd qualified for the Olympics. And yeah, there it is. And I...
 I'd just become the youngest person to win a senior European title in the diving competition, which is really surreal to think and look back on now. Because, you know, when I was there, I was like, I felt like an adult. You know, when like you're 13, you think, oh, well, I'm, you know, it's just me. I'm doing my thing. And I don't actually feel any more grown up now than I did then. I just felt like I felt like I knew everything at that point, you know. I'm from Cajun country, so South Louisiana. And we have a French phrase, joie de vie, right? A joy of life. Yeah. You have that.
 Yeah, I just was, I just love diving. Like, there's something about it that every day that I got to go to the pool, like, it just gave me life. Like, I was just so excited about every time I got to go on the board. Like, the friends that were there, like, the people, my teammates. I used to love going away and traveling, and every moment that I got to be there to be able to, it was just so much fun. And I will always look back on those years that I was diving and just treasure them forever.
 But here's the interesting thing that I know only because I watched the documentary and tried to do as much research as I could. You were terrified. I was. It made you kind of cranky. You would like go off and be on your own. They would be like, what is he doing? And it would frustrate Andy. Yes. There were so many occasions where...
 I don't know how the powers that be within the diving world actually allowed me to stay in the team. Because from the get-go, I must have shown some promise. Although, funnily enough, my younger brother was way better than me at diving when we started.
 He always says to me that one of his biggest regrets was never carrying on diving because he never knew where he would be now if he had kept on diving as well. But when I was younger, I used to get very, very scared about trying new dives because every time you try something new, you're diving into the complete unknown. You don't know...
 what it's going to feel like, what you're going to see, how you're going to land, how it's going to feel when you're spinning through the air. But I also used to get really, really homesick. I used to get terrified about going away for competitions and staying overnight. I used to cry to have to stay overnight and cry for my parents. I used to...
 threatened to jump out of windows if I was going to be left in the hotel room on my own. But, you know, at the age of like nine and 10 years old, I was traveling to Australia on my own without my parents. And I like with the jet lag and being so far away, I just, it was very, very overwhelming for like a nine-year-old kid to have to travel to the other side of the world. But at one point, like when I was like 12, I just grew out of it and it just stopped happening. But
 I remember it, like, I just, I loved being there during the day, but there was just something that would happen overnight. And, you know, like, like you say, Andy at the time was there as my coach. And, you know, he would be there and be as supportive as he possibly could, but he often would just step away when it came to the nighttime and let the chaperones and the team managers deal with me in the evening, because he wanted to be there for me as a coach. And of course, he wants to be there for me as a person as well, but he didn't want to be
 He didn't want to blur any boundaries when it came to, you know, getting in the way of that kind of stuff. You grew up in Plymouth, right? I did, yeah. And so your mother had heard about diving and thought, oh, it could be something good. And so we should have Tom try it. It's not like you came from like this history of diving, you know, Olympic medalist. So she's like, sure, we'll put him in it. They put you in it. It becomes a thing. Go back to the first memory you have of Andy. Paint that picture for me.
 So I, yeah, diving for me was very much by chance. Like I started getting involved in the water because we lived in Plymouth near the ocean. So, you know, we wanted to be able to be safe in water. Like you say, got involved in diving because we saw the diving boards, wanted to give it a go. My first coach, Sam Grevitt, was...
 saw something in me that she thought that I had a big talent and that I was doing really well in my diving and that she wanted to call Andy Banks, who was the head of the Plymouth Diving Club, over. He was a big boss. He was the one that everybody wanted to impress. And I was in this diving club and I was, at that time I was training twice a week because I was in this squad. And it was kind of almost an audition to then go up to training three or four times a week and go up into a more elite squad.
 But at this point, I was only, I think, eight or nine years old at the time. So Andy comes over and it just so happens to be a day where I am learning a new dive. And the moment that he walks in, I'm standing on the end of the board, crying my eyes out, refusing to dive into the pool, like completely distraught. And...
 My coach, Andy Banks, says to me that I will not make a diver for as long as I will live. And he thinks that Tom Daley will never be a diver for as long as he'll live.
 And I later found that out. And it's kind of crazy now to look back on that moment. And, you know, it's nice to think that I proved him wrong, but it took a lot of effort and determination to get to a point where I was able to overcome those fears for him to see that talent and then be there to believe in me, to get me to the place where I could go to an Olympic game.
 Andy also said that he saw a real God-given talent in you, but he almost didn't have the time or the patience to mess around with the child. But we have to remember, we have to remind the audience, you were only a child. How old is this when you met Andy? I met him when I was nine, maybe eight. Come on, come on, right? So, like, it is the behavior of a nine-year-old. But at any rate, he did see something that he thought could be really special.
 Yeah, I remember one of the first times that I started being coached by Andy. I think I was 11 years old or 12 years old. And it was the first time I got to compete at the Australian Youth Olympic Festival, where you had to be 14 years old to compete. But they got a special dispensation for me to compete when I was 12 years old. And this was at a time where Andy pulled me aside and said to me,
 do you want to go to the Olympic Games? And I was like, of course, like my whole dream is to go to an Olympic Games. I remember when they announced that the Olympic Games were gonna be in London in 2012. And I had drawn a picture in this book with the Olympic rings in London 2012 when I was nine years old. That was my dream, to go to the Olympics in London 2012. So I was like, yeah, I wanna go to the London 2012 Olympic Games. And he was like, no.
 do you want to go to the Olympics in Beijing 2008? And he's talking to a 12-year-old at this point. And I was like, well, I was like, Andy, that's two years away. And he was like, I have written and developed a plan for you to learn...
 all the dives, develop all the strength. And I've laid out a roadmap for you to qualify for the Olympic games at 13 years old. And you will hit the age limit by 14 and 81 days on the day of your competition. Cause you have to be 14 to compete at the Olympic games. And he said, you'll be 14 and 81 days. And if you trust me,
 And if you allow me to believe in you to get to this point, you will be able to qualify for the Olympic Games. So when did he start to believe in you? What did it look like? Right. What were some of the first memories you have of the guy who was like, this guy will never make it?
 to starting to believe in you? I remember in 2005, I was 10 years old. From when I was age eight and age nine, I was winning all of my age group national championships and by quite a considerable margin at the time. So they sent me to an international competition to compete when I was 10 years old against 14 and 15 year olds to compete against more elite divers to try and, you know,
 compete with against people that are six years older than me to try and show me that I can't win everything. But then I went to those competitions and they, it didn't happen that I would got beaten. So my coach was like, all of a sudden like, okay, like maybe this kid can actually hold his own against these divers that are, you know, 14 and 15 years old when he's nine or 10 years old. So maybe if I was to really believe in him and nurture his talent, then I
 maybe he can be the real deal. And I remember at that point, he took me under his wing and was like, okay, now I'm going to be your coach. And it was kind of from then on, really, that I just, I remember starting to train not just four times a week, it became five times a week, and then it was six times a week, and then it was before school as well as after school. And I was training, then all of a sudden, it was like four hours a day, then it was six hours a day,
 And then diving just became my life. And there were so many people along the way that were telling me that I couldn't do it. There were people that were saying that I wasn't strong enough, I wasn't flexible enough, I wasn't neat enough, I didn't have pointy enough toes, my legs weren't straight enough. But the one thing for a diver that is the most important is spatial awareness and going in vertical.
 If you go in vertical with no splash, that is what a diver needs to do. And to be consistent and to be able to see where you are in the air. Because when I'm spinning around, I have to, like a ballerina will spot a wall when they're spinning. When I'm spinning around, I'm looking for the water on every single rotation to know...
 where I am. Some divers will throw themselves off the board, close their eyes, hope for the best, and just do muscle memory repetition to get it right. And I was like, there's no way that I can rely on that. And that was what Andy taught me from the age of nine. Lots of kids just learn dives to get into a competition, but Andy was like, no, I'm going to teach you
 the way that you are going to be the most consistent diver and the most controlled diver and the most efficient diver that you can possibly be. So that's a lot of physical coaching. Did he did he do any psychological coaching?
 Yes, I was quite challenging as a younger athlete. I was an extreme perfectionist. I would get very, very upset if I didn't get to grips with something immediately. If something wasn't perfected within the first couple of tries, I would get very, very, very upset.
 And if I didn't manage to perform at my best in a competition, I would be very upset. It was something that, you know, prided myself on doing the very, very, very best that I could possibly do every time I went into a competition. And it took me a very long time to realize that doing my best in competition didn't necessarily mean the best result. It just meant trying my best in that moment. And I don't think I got...
 full perspective on what it meant to be an athlete and what it meant to be the best athlete that I could be until I was 27 and I was competing in the Tokyo 2020 Olympic Games. That was when I felt like I had full perspective on what it meant to be an athlete. But since you were...
 let's call it emotionally challenging. Yes. Right? Can you think of specific times when Andy went above and beyond? So it wasn't just about, I seem to remember from the documentary, there were these things about like, you would be at a hotel and you'd be spinning and threatening to jump and whatever. And he'd be like, okay, y'all handle it, right? But did there come a point where he seemed to step in to the degree that he could to not only address the physical Tom Daley, but the emotional too? Yeah.
 He knew how to handle me in competition better than any coach. But he was so...
 relaxed in competition and calm that it was almost concerning because, you know, I've had coaches on all like scales of what, of that, you know, but Andy was the most, you know, going into a competition, he knew what I needed to focus on in terms of a technical aspect. He knew what I needed to focus on in terms of mentally in the competition. So he would give me three things to
 like a mental thing to focus on. He would tell me a physical thing to focus on. And then he would give me an overall point. And when things would spiral, he would try and break the competition down into, instead of it being an overall competition, each dive would be its own individual competition. And like each dive does not dictate how the next dive is going to be. If the one dive goes really well, the next dive is his own thing. Just because one dive goes well, doesn't mean the next dive is going to be good.
 And if the one dive goes bad, doesn't mean the next one's going to be bad. And it doesn't mean it's going to be good either. So he was very good at teaching me how to compete. Because I think that's something that lots of athletes struggle with. They may be the best in training, but learning how to compete is a whole different thing. So we used to compete in training every day. Every day, we used to call it Titian.
 So like a competition. So every morning or every time we got in, Andy would call it, let's do Titian. So Titian was every time we got into the pool, our lineup set, which was our warmup dyes that we would do to get in, we would have to compete. And it would be a competition. And we would then keep track of like who would win overall at the end of the week. And it was, nobody won anything, but like it was just pride. And I would compete against the rest of the team. And it was always something that I...
 you know, really wanted to never let anyone else win. Are you still that competitive? Yes. Even with my kids. It's awful. I believe that. I believe that. Did he ever come up to you and say, I'm proud of you?
 Yes. Oh, and you know, Andy, when I moved to London after the London Olympics in 2014, that was, and moving away from him as a coach was like a really difficult like transition for me because I'd never known anything else. He stayed at Plymouth. He stayed in Plymouth. You moved to London.
 And I moved to London, exactly. And that was a moment where, like, when I didn't have him around for, like, that first competition, there were a couple of competitions there where I spiraled. And I didn't have that, like, rock of knowing what that was like in a competition without him. And I really struggled initially. And I remember there were many competitions after that where...
 he came up to me and said how proud he was of me. And I remember specifically after Tokyo, when we finally won the Olympic gold medal. And I remember really, really vividly he came up to me and he just was like, it's about bloody time. Because it was the fourth Olympic Games and it was like trying, like time after time of trying and trying and trying of winning an Olympic gold medal. And, you know, it was, you know, he had been there from the beginning.
 People listening or watching this might think, well, it's an Olympian, you know, probably the most popular kid in the school. I was shocked to learn that you came back from the Olympics. You're 14, 15 years old. And the bullying that you endured in school was so traumatic that your parents ended up pulling you out of the school. Yeah. What kind of bullying did you endure?
 Yeah, it was like, it was, it was really tough, because it was not just like emotional stuff. It was like physical to the point where I was like getting injured. I was, you know, in the field getting like rugby tackled to the floor. I don't like in for American orders, like American football, like tackle to the floor. I was, you know, getting things thrown at me. People threatening to break your legs?
 Yeah, like all of it. Like anything you can imagine, like would happen. And it was It happened to me. Well, not quite like that. But it happened to me because I was gay, right? And they would call me all the terrible names. Why you? You were in the Olympics.
 I think coming back and having a different kind of attention rather than just being Tom, just the school kid Tom to being the Olympian Tom and being in like what would be the equivalent of like eighth or ninth grade is something that is quite...
 challenging for people at school. And it was all, I don't know, I still look back on it now. And I'm always a bit like, what on earth happened? And how could it be allowed to go? Jealousy, maybe? I guess jealousy. But at the same time, I don't know. I just, I think kids can sometimes just be mean. And I just, I...
 Growing up was really sensitive and I cared and I really took to heart everything that people were saying. And, you know, my best friend, who's still my best friend now, Sophie, she was there throughout the whole thing. And she's been my rock, like throughout, like my outside of diving rock throughout the whole thing.
 you feel things, even things that happen to other people. Yeah, I do. And it's, which, you know, and I did at that point. And, you know, my husband might say otherwise, because- What would you say? I think he would say that I was very shut off because I think when I was younger, I used to feel things very, very deeply.
 even through school, through the bullying, through what people used to say to me, how I used to feel when I would go away from my parents, how I used to feel with my dad being around, with him being my biggest cheerleader, and the highs and the lows and the pressure and the expectation of a nation on me to go and win Olympic medals. Then losing my dad the year before the London Olympics to a brain tumor,
 And all of the things that I loved and enjoyed, like there would always be this dark side of it that got everything that I loved and enjoyed, like got taken away or something would happen to me that was bad. So in every instance of that, I felt like, or even just,
 you know, falling in love. I then realized, you know, coming to terms with the fact that I was gay and realizing that the people I love was wrong and was bad and was not normal. Like everything about me felt like everything I got close to was wrong. And I'm sitting with that. That's profound.
 Because watching the documentary, you're right. These things that were your dad dies, your biggest cheerleader, right? Dustin, Lance, Dustin Lance Black, your husband. You meet him in the States. You give him your number. You put a little wink emoji. He follows up and then, okay, let's talk about that. This blew me away. So he follows up. He flies to the UK. You throw a party for him. Y'all are going to get together. And your management says to you,
 Don't think that's a bad idea. Be careful with that guy. He's kind of an LGBTQ activist. Yeah, be careful. As if he would harm your career. Yeah, as if it was going to be really bad for my image to be associated with somebody that was an LGBT activist because people would think that I was gay.
 So then all of a sudden I was like, I was falling in love. And then I was told the person that I'm falling in love with is going to be bad for me. So it was everything that I did, that everything that I loved was then told that I was bad. Everything like the diving. I was so excited. Been to the Olympics, go back to school. Bad. Dad, biggest cheerleader. Next thing I know. Did anything go right? Anything you love go right?
 Well, you know, I'd like to think, you know, though, of course, everything, I look back now and I see, you know, with my dad, I have so many amazing memories. And with school, I have, when I moved school to Plymouth College, like I have amazing memories there. And I have amazing memories with diving on the other side of it. And then with Lance, of course, now we're married and we have kids. And so, of course, I have amazing memories, but I do have this thing where I am way more shut off. And Lance calls me his warrior monkey.
 Because I am very much, I do go into like kind of a warrior mode where I just focus on the task at hand and I just go. I would assume the kids have penetrated some of that armor. Oh, yeah. The kids will get through to me and then like the kids are just, we're all cuddle monsters when it comes to the kids. And they are just the sweetest things. But it's just externally outside of that. But where are you the most vulnerable?
 The most vulnerable with the kids and with Lance. Yeah. But outside of that, I really struggle. And I think even Lance would say to me that I'm not very vulnerable with him. Well, let me say this to you, my friend. Vulnerability is a practice. It's not a destination. Indeed. Indeed. Oh.
 Tell the audience not watching but listening what you're looking at. So I'm looking at a picture of me and my dad. And this was right after I got back from the European Championships in 2008. And funnily enough, we are walking the red carpet at the BAFTAs. So me and my dad, we always used to love going up to London for our little...
 excursions. We used to go up to London all the time for, you know, we used to, whether it was like things like the BAFTAs or we'd go to like the National Television Awards or it would be, you know, the Pride of Britain Awards. There would always be some kind of, you know, fun thing that we'd be invited to up in London that we'd go up for like day trips or there'd be media things that we'd go up for. And I got to spend so much quality time with my dad. Like there's, and I always think there's a reason for that.
 Like, I think there is a reason for the fact that I qualify for the Olympic Games at 14 years old because he didn't get to see me compete in London 2012. I also think there's a reason I won. I was the youngest person to win a world title when I was 15 years old because he never got to see me win another one. And like, so I always think there's all of these things that happened for a reason because he wasn't going to see what happened next.
 He died at the age of 40. 40, I know. He was 17. Yeah. You know, it's really kind of scary to think that he was 40 and I'm like approaching that age. I thought about that. And I'm like, that's really scary to me that, you know, like right here, I'm like three years away from being the age that he is in this photo.
 Does that thought in any way influence how you show up for your kids? Totally. I try to be there in every way I can. I'm there for all of their... We do all the weekends. It's filled with their... I mean, Phoenix does gymnastics. Robbie's doing drum lessons. I spent the whole weekend, we were just splashing around in the pool. Lance has built them a treehouse over the last few weekends. We are...
 We always spend every weekend is like with the kids. Like we always try and build as many memories as possible because, you know, life is so short. Like it's, and Lance and I both have experience of that with family, of having family members taken from us way too early. So, and at the end of the day, family and those memories is all we've got. Your dad also gave you great perspective, did he not?
 Oh, yeah. My dad was great at giving me perspective because he didn't care about the results of what I would do in competition. Oh, yeah. Say what happened when you came in. What was it? 18th or something? Are you worried about coming in 18th? Yes. It was my first national championships in 2004.
 I was nine years old and I was going to my first senior national championships in Southampton. And I was terrified because I was like, I had done a junior nationals before, but I was like, well, what if I go there and I come last place and I embarrass myself and it's gonna be terrible. And you know, I make a complete fool of myself. And he said to me, how many people are in that competition? And I was like, I don't know, maybe 18. He was like, okay, even if you come dead last and you bomb out on absolutely everything,
 you are going to be 18th best in the whole country. And I think that's pretty darn cool.
 And I was like, you know what? You're right. If I come last, dead last and come 18th, I'm going to be 18th best in the whole country. And there will only be 17 other people on the whole British Isles that will be better than me. And you know what? That is pretty darn cool. And that's why I went into that competition without any of that pressure. My parents never put any pressure on me whatsoever. They were just there to clap and cheer. They didn't even
 take the time to really understand like the diving itself. They, and they didn't care to. And I loved that because they were just there to show up and cheer. And it was, it was so nice just to have them there just to be there and support. It was pretty special. Your dad recorded so much. Yeah. Everything. In the documentary I watched, there's video of him on his deathbed. Yeah. With you holding his hand. Mm-hmm.
 And talking about the day where you had passed a driver's test and you drove back to the house and he couldn't come, he couldn't walk out, but they were able to bring him to the window. And there you are like rubbing his head. I was like, they have video of everything. Yeah. This is the kind of crazy thing when I look back on my life, like from the age of like nine, I had from the competitions that I did and from doing nationals from that competition, although I...
 was worried about coming last, I actually won the under 18 title. So from that moment, I then ended up having these like documentaries following me as like an Olympic hopeful hopeful from the age of nine. So then there's documentary footage from the age of nine, as well as the footage of my, that my dad had filmed. And so there were documentaries in the buildup to like 2008, 2008.
 10, 12. And so there's footage of everything. Like you say, even in, you know, up until like two days before my dad passed away on my 17th birthday. My dad passed away four days after I turned 17. That's right. So...
 I remember the first time I saw a picture of your dad, I was like, oh, he looks a lot like his dad. And then I saw a picture of your mom and I was like, oh, never mind. He's definitely his mom's son. Let me go to this photo. Yes.
 Dustin Lance Black, your husband, where did y'all meet? We met here in LA, actually. So you give him your number, you put that winky face behind, life happens, you guys end up getting married. It's Rio. You go, there's a big dream, we're going to get a big medal, and you...
 Yeah, Rio 2016 was the... So in London 2012, I won my first Olympic medal. It was bronze medal. I was, you know, over the moon to get my first Olympic medal. It was the year after my dad passed away. And it felt like the moment where I was like, you know what?
 So happy to have like won an Olympic medal after like the year I'd had. So then going into 2016, I'd had a really good run in. I was 22. I was at my peak age for diving is 22. Like 22 to 24 is when you're at your best. So I was going into that competition, peaking physically, mentally. Everything was going perfectly. In the prelim round, I win.
 Olympic record, like everything was just going perfectly. The next day, come in for the semifinals and it just all falls apart. And I have the worst diving day I'd had in years. Like it was, everything was falling apart. Dive after dive, it was getting worse and worse and worse and worse. And I ended up coming 18th and not making the final.
 And I remember it feeling like the whole world was falling apart. It was the worst day in my diving career. It felt like I had all of the work that I put in over those last four years was all for nothing. And I remember just like going and seeing Lance in the parking lot outside the diving pool and just like hugging him and just being like, I can't believe all of this work and all of this sacrifice that we put into this was for nothing.
 And he was like, no, this wasn't for nothing. Your story doesn't end here. Like maybe you didn't win an Olympic gold medal here because your future children are meant to see you win an Olympic gold medal.
 But Tom, 18 in Rio, what was the number your dad's even if you show up? Exactly. I know. I mean, come on. That's a bit of a God wink moment. I know. It's crazy. Like everything fell apart, but you just happened to wind up 18th. Not 17th. Not 19th. 18th. Come on. I know. I know. We should say your husband is an Academy Award winner. He is. Has an Oscar for Best Screenplay for Milk.
 For Milk, yeah. Yeah. He wrote Milk and produced Milk. So yeah, he's a pretty clever guy in his own right. Yeah. Which is kind of crazy. And you know, that's why he was saying, as a filmmaker, he was like, your story doesn't end here. This is just where Act Two begins.
 And like, you know, you need the down before the up. And like, this is where you're at rock bottom. And, you know, this is, and that's when, after that, we got married. We had Robbie and the next Olympics, I got to win an Olympic gold medal in front of Robbie. I don't know if it's just the way you tell it or who you surround yourself with, but your life has seemingly been like a movie.
 It's very surreal when I look back on it, because I was like, for me, it seemed so mundane, because I just spent day in, day out in the pool. But when I look back on it, it's been a lot of ups and downs. Why is Lance the one for you? Lance is a very complex character. I think we're both very complex characters in our own way. And I think it's very, very difficult to find somebody that understands you
 on a way that you function on a... Because we both function on a very high level in lots of different ways. So we are very opposite, but also very similar. So I know that sounds... Opposite how?
 So he's very introverted and very creative. But although I'm kind of creative in certain ways, but I'm there and he's very much like go with the flow and I'm much more regimented, structured.
 and extroverted. We very much balance each other out, but we both understand what it takes and the sacrifices needed to be at the top of our games and be the best that we can be. So it's, and we've also, you know, we've lost people close to us. We've, there's been lots of things in our life that we have like an understanding without even having to talk about it. So- And very similar how.
 similar in the way that we are at like quite a high level in our chosen fields and we achieve things at a young age in and relative to our, you know, Lance won an Oscar at, I think he was 29 when he, or 30 when he won his Oscar. So, and I was 14 when I went to my first Olympic games. So like at that, which is kind of like doing something at a young age and then experiencing, like experiencing what happens after that, because I met him,
 after the London Olympics, when I was really like on the down after the Olympics, because every time after an Olympic Games, you always come really, you crash hard because you know you've got another four years to wait and you don't know if you're going to make it to the next one. You don't know if your body's going to withstand it. You don't know if you're going to be there like with injury. You don't know if you're going to even qualify. And it just all seems so far away.
 And he had experienced the same thing with an Oscar. And it was so hard to speak to someone just having won an Olympic medal and being like, I've just won an Olympic medal, but I am so sad. I'm so down. And how do you speak to your teammates about that? How do you speak to anyone about being sad about winning an Olympic medal? And...
 he had experienced a similar thing after having won an Oscar and the pressure and the expectation that comes with that afterwards. And there's not many people that can relate to that. Normal people can't relate. Well, it's not even that. It's just like, it's hard to find someone. It was like we met at this perfect time. And we just connected on so many levels that just... And because we were so long distance for such a long time,
 It forced us to spend six weeks talking and really getting to know each other for six weeks before we got to see each other in person. You talk about the highs and lows. You seem to relish the lows because they seem to set up some of your biggest rebounds. Every time somebody tells me that I can't do something or something bad happens, it fuels me to want to do better or want to...
 I don't know if it's like a... I don't know what it is. I know everybody says that they learn from the mistakes. And I know that's true, but there's something that's really character building about things when they go wrong. You ever watched a movie about perfect people?
 Exactly. There are no perfect people. Right. The best movies are what... What did your husband win an Academy Award for? Exactly. A man who was murdered. I know. For doing something noble. Exactly. Right? Darkest period. One of the dark periods of American history. Right? So like on the side of every... Your husband says this in the movie, in the documentary. Yeah. He says, before every sunrise, there is immense darkness. Yeah. That landed with me when he said it.
 It's true. So I think that's another way that you guys kind of get each other. And we're always there for each other in those moments, which is really important because, you know, and so far those moments have lined up opposite. And we've always been able to be there in ways to be able to support one another, to uplift one another and, you know,
 We understand what it takes to be a supportive partner to allow the other person to fly. And it's, don't get me wrong, it's challenging. It's incredibly challenging to make space for both people to do what they love to the level that they need to do it. And then also balancing in kids with that and being able to make time for all of that because...
 all of a sudden our window shrinks to 8.30 to 4.00 within the school, you know, between school drop-off and school pick-up. We have to fit in what we would have been able to do from between 8.00 and 7.00 p.m. until whenever we wanted to, really. But now that window is much shorter because we do it while the kids are at school. And, you know, once the kids are home, you know, we're with them, so...
 Let's go back to the diving. Your dive takes from start to finish 1.6 seconds. Yes. And you spent about 26 years trying to perfect it. Yes.
 I know. As I watched you jump off the board, I was reminded that what terrifies me about the dive is the fear that I'm going to hit my head. Yeah. Is that just something non-divers have, or did you ever have that fear? I've hit my head twice. Really? It does happen. I mean, Greg Ligane has hit his head in the Olympics. Like, it does happen. It's rarer. Like, you hit your feet quite often, your hands. Like, you...
 It's, there's a delicate balance when it comes to diving. It is a very dangerous sport at the end of the day. You hit the water at 35 miles an hour. You have to find the right trajectory away from the board so that you can jump as high as you possibly can. The higher you can jump and the faster you can spin. The further you are away from the board, the less height you get and the harder it is to control. So you have to find that perfect distance. Wow.
 which is usually about six inches. Okay, so here's the follow-up question. You talk a lot about when you would have a misstep or a failure, you would lose confidence in yourself. Oh yeah. And you'd have to build it back up. When you hit your head, did you all of a sudden become fearful? Yeah, actually, it was the week, funnily enough, that day when Andy came and saw me crying on the end of the diving board was the week after I hit my head.
 which was why I was crying, because I was relearning the dive that I had hit my head on. So there are lots of reasons why I was crying on the diving board. But it's one of those things. Like diving is a sport where you kind of love it, but it also terrifies you every single day. How did Andy teach you to handle that fear? Yeah.
 Well, he always taught me that when the day comes that you stand on the end of that diving board and you're not scared, something's going to go wrong. Wow. Because... So lean into the fear. The fear is what stops you making mistakes. As soon as you get complacent is when you start making mistakes. Wow, what a way to look at fear. Yeah. The fear is what keeps you from making the mistakes.
 Andy said to me, there's no such thing as good luck, just good preparation. And that's something that I, so when it came to competition, he would never really say good luck. Lots of people for competition would say good luck, like, you know, go out there, go get it. But for him, it was never good luck. It was no such thing as good luck, just good preparation.
 I knew you were a decorated Olympian, but the knitting thing really became, you know, how a lot of people were introduced to you. But now, Tom, I'm thinking of knitting in a different light. I used to think, oh, it's cute. It's a way for him to relax. But now I wonder if it was like literally something that kept you from metaphorically jumping out the window.
 I genuinely think knitting was the reason why I was able to win an Olympic gold medal. Like, there was no doubt that going into the Tokyo Olympics, it was a COVID Olympic Games. We weren't allowed to socialize. We weren't allowed to do anything. We had to get tested every morning. There was so much time in that Olympic village to overthink and stress and worry about your competition that without knitting...
 I don't know what I would have done. And you now host a knitting show. I do. It's a game of wool. It's yeah, Finding Britain's Best Knitter. It's basically like a bake-off, but for knitting. What is Tom Daley, the businessman, like now post-retirement? Yeah, it's all very surreal. I started Made With Love, which is like a knitting company with yarn and kits to be able to create your own things. Because I just wanted to be able to try and...
 make knitting more accessible for more people and crochet to be for people to be able to have to find their inner calm and their mindfulness and their, you know, thing that they can just be like really in the moment. So it's been exciting, actually. And I'm in the middle of developing lots of like new yarns and new things to like, hopefully, will be out soon. So it's been really exciting, actually. It's weird now not being in the pool every day and being able to have the time to do all of those things that I've always wanted to do, but just never had the time
 What does a guy who thrives on adrenaline, pressure, and the next competition do now in retirement with that? Because you don't lose that. You're still your own being. What do you do now? The hardest thing in the world for an athlete is retirement because...
 There is nothing in the world that will ever, ever, ever compare to standing on that diving board in Olympic Games. For better or for worse, like, for example, if I go into any situation, whether it's a live TV show, whether it is a, you know, going into a really important business meeting or a pitch, whatever it is, or a podcast, there is nothing that will make me feel more nervous or more that I've got more at stake than diving in Olympic Games for an Olympic medal.
 So if I put everything into perspective when I go and do things, I'm always like, well, it's not the Olympics. So I'm always a bit like, so in a way, it helps me when I go into certain situations. But in others, I'm always like, God, like there's that piece that I'll never feel that again. And that bit, I'm always like, oh, like I'll never, I'll never feel that Olympic rush again. Who is Tom Daley without diving?
 That's a good question. I'm Papa is honestly, that is my favorite role that I've ever had. And the role that I'm most proud of beyond all of my Olympic medals is that I'm Papa. And, you know, Robbie and Phoenix, and I hope that they, you know, that was the reason why I went back to the Paris Olympic games was because Robbie, the oldest asked me to go back because he wanted to see me dive at the Olympics.
 Because in Tokyo, because of COVID, he wasn't able to be there in person. Whereas in Paris, they both got to see me dive in person. So, yeah. And trust me, they keep asking me to go back for LA. So I'm like, Robbie, I don't know if Papa can do that at 34. I have to be honest. I was watching the doc and I was like, oh, come on, Tom. Just please do Los Angeles, right? It plays on my mind every day. Every day I wake up and I'm like...
 Oh, gosh, like, could I, could I do one more? Like, there's every day I wake up and I look at the results of the diving that goes on. And I'm like, guys, I'm like, you're teasing me with these results. And I'm like, do I like, do I don't I do I don't I and I'm always like, Oh, it trust me. And it's one of those things if it was if this next Olympics was somewhere where I didn't live.
 I wouldn't even think about it. But because it's on my doorstep and I see LA 2028 all the time, like, it's... Are you giving it consideration? I don't know if I'm giving it consideration, but the fact that I've just said that, I guess I am. Like, because it's... But at the same time...
 I still consider myself very much retired, but there's always, but I feel like there's always that part of an Olympian that's like, until you go past an Olympic Games where you didn't compete, there's probably always that part of you that feels like, maybe I could. Do you still think you've got it?
 It's a good question. After Tokyo, I thought I was done because I retired for two years. And I came back a year before Paris to compete. So, I mean, I don't know. That's the thing. I wouldn't know until I tried. No, I know. But do you still feel like you've got it? I think I always feel like I could have it. Andy said Tom likes to be the master of his own destiny. He needs to know what he is doing is going to work. Yeah. I, yeah.
 If I think something's going to work and I set my mind to it, I'll make it work. I wouldn't want to go up against you if you're hell-bent on getting something. Well, no diver has done six Olympics, so. Really? Yes. Is it about proving something to the world, proving something to yourself? What is it about? What?
 I don't know. I don't know. I think it's also like, it's life, my life. It's like weird not knowing what to do without it. Did you have to do any therapy after you retired to like... No, maybe I should. No, no, no, I just ask because a lot of people find their identity in what they do.
 Yeah. I mean, I've been so like busy doing other things. Yeah. Raising kids. Yeah. Yeah. Like I, and it's just, it's just one of those things. I think I've been speaking to like my diving partner, Matty, who retired as well recently. Lots of the divers have retired and I speak to them all the time. And I'm like, do you think about it? And they were like, every day. And I said to some of the divers that have been retired for like 10 years, I'm like,
 do you think about it? And they were like, yes, all the time. And even like divers that have been retired 20 years, they're like, yeah, sometimes I look at the competition and I just think, if I was diving in that competition, I could have done that. And I'm like, yeah, but you've got to be in it to win it, you know, and you have to have done all the training. You have to have been there. You have to have like put all that effort in. If, if, if, if, if you did LA28, when would you need to start like intensely training? Oh gosh, that's a good question.
 I guess this time next year. This time next year. Okay. If. Okay. And you're in the water how much these days? I haven't been on a diving board since Paris. That was the last time I touched a diving board. Oh, wow. Diving boards are really hard to find. Does it come back just like getting on a bike again?
 I wouldn't say it comes like, I mean, I could probably go and do like some simple dives, but like, it's more the impact on your body that you have to retrain because it's the, like the constant impact on your body and your shoulders and your back and your knees and your joints. It's that it's, and you kind of like can taught your body into like the weirdest positions and.
 You know, nowadays, after 30, it hurts getting out of bed sometimes. So I don't know what it's going to be like throwing myself off a damn ear platform. So, yeah. You came out at 19. I came out at 24. And yet again, your coming out was like so many things of your childhood, which was you put out a video. And I remember watching this video being like this poor guy thinking he has to go put out a video. Yeah.
 To let the world know. It was every interview I ever did, I got asked every time, do you have a girlfriend? Do you have a girlfriend? And I never wanted to be caught in a lie. So I always just had to say, no, I don't have time for that at the moment. No, I don't have time. And, like, it was...
 it just all got, it all got like misconstrued in an interview once and then misquoted. And like, I got quoted saying I am not gay. And I, it infuriated me because then I was like, I don't want to. But if I am, who cares? Yeah, exactly. I'm not gay, but if people think I am, who cares? Yeah, exactly. So then it was like,
 All, and I just was like, I can't deal with having people think that I'm ashamed of who I am. And that was when I was like, you know what? And that was at the time when I was having all of this conflicting information with like management telling me I should do one thing and hide. And it was such a complicated time in my life. And I felt like that moment was...
 I didn't know how to come out. I didn't, it was scary to do an interview because I didn't want people to- There's no rule book on how to do it. And also like, it was scary because it was, there weren't any other athletes at the time that were like competing in the UK. Was your mom cool with it? My mom was great with it. My mom was totally- Did your dad know? I feel like my dad must have known. He didn't, I don't think he, I didn't like tell him, but I feel like he must have known.
 There's a quote from you. I always felt like I had to overachieve to disguise the part of me that I thought was considered wrong. And I very much as a gay man identified with that. I think I have long tried to overachieve, to mask.
 Yes. I think that's every queer kid's thing. It's like when they're growing up, you have to, you know, it's like that perfect little boy syndrome. Like you have to be, I was overachieved at school. I wanted to overachieve at diving to be that kid that you never...
 you know, you wanted to make up for that thing that was wrong with you. And it was almost like distracting from the fact that you were this gay kid and you were wrong with something that you felt was so inherently or told something was wrong with you. So you just tried to overachieve in other ways. So people thought, you know, but he's such a good kid. He's such a good kid. And yeah, so I feel like I used diving and I used my grades. Was it the refuge in some way? Yeah, yeah.
 I use diving in my grades as a way to, as a mask, really. I get that. I feel that. Would you want to have kids who are gay? You know what? It's, that's an interesting question. I, as gay dads, I have, you know, when it comes to the boys, it's really interesting to see how they're growing up with kids
 like in a household where there are no gender stereotypes and how like, you know, being allowed to play with whatever toys they want and being able to kind of just be free to be themselves. And it's so sweet to be able to just like let them be. And I don't know, like it's so, but I just want them to be happy. And it's like so weird for them. Like, I can't imagine what it'd be like to grow up as them with parents that, or like feeling like your parents wouldn't care who you loved
 And you could just be yourself. Like, they can just be themselves. And they know that there's going to be no judgment whatsoever. The question was kind of absurd in the sense that I made it sound like you go shopping and like, oh, would you want to buy a gay kid? You know, like, my point is, I don't know that I would want to have children who are gay. Oh, really? And before everybody's like, oh, no, that's shocking. I don't know that I would want to experience what I know I went through. And I couldn't handle watching it as a parent. Mm-hmm.
 I think it would be very different now. For sure. No doubt. Especially where I live now compared to where I grew up. I hope, and I really do hope, that the world in 10 years' time, when they are becoming adults, they do feel like they can be themselves. You know what helps ease hearts and minds about this? Looking at people like you just living life regularly and normally.
 Let me try. You know, that's the thing. Having more... Like, lots of people have asked about, like, you know...
 activism and LGBTQ activism. And I feel like everybody can be activists in their own way just by living their life. Like it's not about going, it's not always about screaming from the rooftops. It's not always about every like thing every single day. I agree. Just living your authentic life and just being you every day and just being visible is sometimes the most valuable form of activism.
 How many Olympics? Five. How many medals? Five. 26 years and it all came down to 1.6 seconds. Dead. Crazy. Happy life so far? Happy life so far. And it's only 32 years old. I know. Jesus. This was fun. Yes, very fun. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the conversation. We'll see you next time, everybody.
 I'm Tom Daley and the person who believed in me was Andy Banks.
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