Theo Epstein on NEVER TOLD Game 7 story, building Cubs World Series roster | Ross & Rizzo

All right, ladies and gentlemen, David Ross, Anthony Rizzo, Theo Epstein.
We are now official with what do you call this?
The Slave?
Welcome back to another episode of Level Reunion.
Me and my partner David Ross are joined by three
time World Series champion, the greatest executive in baseball to
ever do it, the Goat, theo Epstein, THEO.
Welcome to the show.
Thanks for I thought take it easy on the intro.
Yeah, well we can't, bro, we can't. This is fun
for us, man, We've been we've been looking forward to
this for a long time. Man, this is we appreciate
you doing this obviously, we love you to death, but
uh yeah, we can't. We've been telling these stories and
like to get you here at the end has been
really It's gonna be really fun.
And we just got off the golf course. We're here
at Tamarack Country Club here in Greenwich, Connecticut. Had a
great match, well not great match. THEO and I were
on the team. ROSSI and Theo's good friend TiO waxed
us on the course.
Rossy needed a morale boost. He's doing bluetoo ads and stuff. Yeah, yeah,
I did work with Progo about himself.
So Rossy's been unemployed for too long now, so fact
golf came is off the chart.
So that's right, that's right.
Take us through.
Your journey, right, you break this curse with the Red Sox.
You are twenty eight years old, You get that job,
you have such an experience there, and then you come
to Chicago. What in twenty eleven to twelve, right, that
was your first year. Took the job in October twenty eleven,
and all the experience you brought from the Red.
Sox coming to there, and how did it all unfold?
Yeah, that's a big question really. You know, when I
was getting towards the end of my time with the
Red Sox, I was just asking myself questions like, you know,
what do you want to do with the rest of
my career? What's important to me? What did I enjoy
most about my time with the Red Sox? And what
really resonated was, you know, I love I love being
a dam everything about it because I'm like super competitive,
so I love the competition and I love being part
of a team. So I love being you know in
that front office, you get where as close upstairs as
you guys are downstairs. And also feeling connected to you guys,
the team and the clubhouse.
So I knew I.
Wanted to keep doing that. But ultimately the part that
really resonated the most of me was getting the sacrificing
with my guys shoulders shoulder and feeling like I played
a small part in something that really mattered to a
ton of people. Obviously, the four World championship in Boston,
not having one in eighty six years, it just it
moved so many people, and to play a small part
and bringing joy to people just made me feel so good,
made me feel part of something bigger than myself. And
looking around baseball was like where else could you ever
get that feeling again? Like where is there a mission
that big that's still out there? So obviously Chicago, not
having won in over one hundred years, was the place
that was crying out. There's so many parallels between the
Cubs and the Red Sox and that season when that
job became available, and the way everything happened at the
end of our season in and the Cubs came after me.
I was just doing like a self inventory. And I've
always had this rule that after about ten years, someplace
you should look for something else to go do, both
for your own benefit to expand your horizons, challenge yourself
kind to start fresh, but also for the benefit of
the organizationency you don't get stale, they don't get stale.
They can get fresh eyes in there. And it'd been
ten years with the Red Sox. It was just time.
And when the Cubs came after me, I thought, Wow,
here's a chance to take all the lessons I learned
in Boston through. As you said, twenty eight when I
got that job. So I got so many things wrong,
but I learned so much along the way. I was
kind of making it up as I went along. There
hadn't ever led anything in my life, not even like
a lemonade stand, no business school classes or anything. Kind
of figured out how to lead, figured out how to manage,
figure out how to bring people together. I thought, this
is such a perfect opportunity for the Cubs. They're they
haven't won in over one hundred years. As Jack Brickhouse said, Hey,
anybody can have a bad century, right, That's where they
were at. I was like the worst team in the division,
oldest team in the division, worst farm system. So it
was like a mandate to come in a blank slate
to build something. God chanced to do it with great people.
It was clear Tom was an awesome owner. I say, man,
what a perfect opportunity to take the things I've learned
along the way and apply and build something from scratch
and kind of challenge myself and then the payoff if
you win is just as rewarding and just as resonant
as what you had in Boston. So it was kind
of a perfect fit for me.
I got to play in Boston and you brought me
there in eight and then thirteen winning and you mentioned
how many similarities there are between the two organizations. What
did you bring from Boston to Chicago that was important
to you Because a lot of guys have said a
lot of nice things about hy Treel Trump treated families,
you know, how the things were organized and everybody felt
so important. And that's what I felt the first time
I got to Boston, be in some other places. What
did you feel like was important to bring to Chicago
that you had learned in Boston And what did you
want to leave behind that maybe you like could have
done differently.
Yeah, that was a big one. Is I felt like
over over time in Boston we'd grown into being like
a first class, kind of gold standard type organization along
with a couple others out there in baseball. And a
big part of it was how you treat players, how
you treat their families, how you operate. I had. I
had learned a lesson myself from from Craig Shipley, from
a player along the way back before I became a
game with the Padres, about always telling the truth the players,
always being totally upfront and honest. And I felt like
we kind of applied that as a as a front
office in Boston and started to get a good reputation
for how to treat people and handle players and build teams,
and so I wanted to take that with us, but
it was it was really important in some other baseball things,
Like I wanted to commit like I had, you know,
we'd build some teams around some core principles, like controlling
the strike zone on both sides of the ball, Like
I knew when when we got to Chicago, like, hey,
we're gonna we're gonna try to be a disciplined team
that dominates the strike zone as an offense, and we're
gonna got pictures who have good stuff, but pound the zone.
It's certain like core, big, big baseball principles. But one
thing that we didn't want to do and that felt
was important not to do, was just show up in Chicago.
Were just like, you know, kind of like outside reputation
because it was a big deal when I came in.
People were expecting like, oh, this guy's going to come
in with all the answers, and Chicago's different than Boston.
So I didn't want to just roll out the same
playbook that we had in Boston in Chicago and expect
it to work. For one thing, it would have been
like super arrogant. It would have not shown like an
awareness of the uniqueness of the market and the fan
base that every situation is different. So like the first
thing we did when I got to Chicago we held
organizational wide meetings with like every scout, every coach, everyone
in baseball operations, every analyst in mesa. We spent like
four days getting together and together like deciding what's the
Cub's way going to be, how do we want to
play baseball, how do we want to teach baseball. We
spent a day on hitting and like hitting philosophy and
what we want to emphasize how we want to teach it,
like at every level, including the big leagues, day on pitching,
a day on defense and base running, and then day
on like makeup, like what kind of players we wanted
and what do we want to stand for? What kind
of values and it you know, yes, I like gave
a big speech and talked about the vision and talked
about controlling the strike zone and like set that vision
of what we're trying to become, like five year plan,
become the best organization baseball, win in a World Series
all that, But how we're going to get there That
was going to come from like the collective wisdom of
everyone in the room. And it wasn't going to be
the same playbook in Boston. So we kept everyone that
we inherited in Chicago for at least a year, and
you know, to give everyone a chance to be part
of what we were building. And then also to get
the institutional knowledge. And you know, you don't want to
just get rid of people when you show up somewhere new.
And there were some great people who knew a ton
about how to win and how to develop players, and
also about Chicago and what works in Chicago and what doesn't.
So coming out of those meetings, we had, you know,
like a three hundred page manual we ended up writing
up called The Cubs Away. That was a big part
of the blue print, and it was going to be
unique and different than what we did in Boston because
different market, different fan bases, and different challenges that we face.
Well, I look back a little bit, and you're talking
about like in a day and age right now, that's
just kind of side note, Like you put a lot
of emphasis on the character of the play, Like you
brought in a lot of good character guys. Did that
come from your time in baseball learning?
Yeah, that came learning from a lot of great people
and then my own personal evolution. You know, I was
lucky enough to have a great mentor in San Diego,
Kevin Towers, who was unfortunately we lost him, you know,
many years ago now, but he was like hot young
GM at the time, and he had a scouting background
and he understood people incredibly well, and so he well
he saw that like a hole in my resume and
not having played professionally, was like maybe I didn't have
the scouting side down. So he taught me how to scout,
took me out all around southern California, and I seeing
guys with the draft taught me at a scout. But
even more importantly, he'd bring me down to the clubhouse
with him and like teach me how players really think
and what really goes on behind the scenes, and like
what really matters in the clubhouse. So that was that
was huge for me to get that understanding. But like
even so because my background was like just as much
in analytics and numbers and like kind of being out
front on that side of the game. When I first
got to the Red Sox, you know, I did really
emphasize analytics, and it was so easy back then to
get a competitive advantage just by using like some really
basic modeling and basic analytics. I mean, my first off
season with the Red Sox, we signed David Ortiz for
one point two five million dollars one years.
Well, that's good.
He turned he turned into big poppy and didn't see
that one coming.
That was good.
And then your molar for like two years, two million years,
Bill Miller, two years, two million year. It was just
if you if you had a basic understanding of like
how the numbers could help you project the guy's performance
going forward, it was like shooting fish in a barrel.
So my default at the time was like, yes, I
cared about who players are as people, I cared about character,
and I put teams together. But in the end, like
I was, I was going to come back to the
numbers and something had to make sense by the numbers.
And then over time just being in clubhouses and seeing
which teams overachieved, which teams underachieved, which teams came through
when it mattered most, which teams were like torn apart
from the inside. And we had it all from in
my time at Boston, from coming back down oh three,
to the Yankees to the fried Chicken and beer fiasco
in twenty eleven, I saw like every side of it,
and I just came to realize that, you know, the
human being, the character, the person, beyond just what the
spreadsheet projects for future performance really matters. I know it's cliche, like, yeah,
you know, chemistry, If chemistry were so important, then you
would just build a team based on great guys and no,
obviously talent matters, but how the pieces fit together. I mean,
I get frustrated when people say, like it doesn't you know,
chemistry doesn't really matter. You know, ultimately it's just it's
just a talent that wins out. Because I ask them, like.
And winning, they always say winning creates winning.
Yeah. People look at winning teams and then their reductiveness
that oh they can yeah because you won. But you
know some And I hear it from everybody in all
lines of work, and I ask them like, Okay, what
do you do for a living? Okay, you work at
an investment firm. Okay, well, when you show up to
the office each day, or you work as a teacher,
you work as a general whatever it is, when you
show up to work each day. Does it matter to
you if you understand, like the mission of what you
guys are there for, what you're trying to accomplish, what
the big picture vision is. Does it matter to you
if you feel like you're connected to it and you're
making a difference. Does it matter to you how you
feel about your colleagues, you know, whether whether you respect
them and they respect you, whether you admire them they
admire you, whether they take the time to get to
know you and understand what makes you tick, Whether you
guys create a real connection so that when things aren't
going well, you can be there for each other, or
do you not care and it doesn't matter what's going
on around you and you just do your own thing, Like,
oh no, it really matters. I need to feel connected
to my colleagues. I need to feel like part of
something that matters well, Like same thing with baseball times
one hundred, because you're playing one hundred and sixty two
games and one hundred and eighty three games. It's a
game built on failure. No one can do it by themselves.
And like you guys know better than anyone. I learned
this from you guys. Is you know the huge part
of a winning team is the connection that players feel
towards each other before the shit hits the fan. You
have to take the time to build those relationships, get
to know each other, have that bond, have that fraternal connection,
really care and be there for each other. So when
shit starts to go off the rails, whether it's an
OH for twenty and you need someone to like not
a coach, but you need a player to be there
with you after the game. Have a couple of beers,
watch video, go take swings, go take naked swings. Whever
you doing a good out of it, you know or
or you know you're you're you know, things just aren't
going your way. You're not getting playing time. All of
a sudden, we have three catchers.
Whatever.
Maybe you have to you have to put the investment
in each other. You have to have the right character.
Guys like you and you and many others we were
lucky to have on the twenty sixteen Cups looking out
for the team, bringing people, bringing guys back into the group,
making sure that someone's always there for them, because like
those relationships and ultimately the chemistry that comes from that matters,
And like that's a huge part of the secret sauce
is if you can get to a point where the
players on that team and the people in the organization,
because it's more than just the player to feel connected,
feel that they know what the big mission is, and
then all of a sudden, they start feeling like they're
part of something bigger than themselves. That's goal. That's when
you overachieve, that's when you do great things. That's when
that's when ultimately, I think teams really win. And like
we all felt that way as kids, Like when you're
playing Little League, most important thing in the world to you, right,
you're there for each other, your teammates. But then as
you grow up and you become like the real world
hits you have to start looking out for you know,
a family that you may have. You look out for
your income. Your agent's telling you, hey, there's some stuff.
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So the question next is like, why did you go
get Anthony Rismel both you guys?
Guy before before that though that what you just explained
is the epitome of our team. And now we've done
a bunch of these and interviewed a ton of guys.
The stories there we all loved each other, we all
cared about each other, and I date back to being
drafted by the Red Sox, and seven I had Las
Gudierras who scouted me and came to our house. Still,
whenever I talked to my parents' house, sitting at that table,
my mom was just talking about the other day, likes
sitting right there, coming in and interviewing my parents and
really doing the background work of coaches and what kind
of guy is Anthony? Because if you look at video
of me from like my perfect game days when we
were talking about this, I was.
Terrible, and I was like, what did you see in me?
Like you should be fired for drafting me.
I was.
I look at myself back then. I was so bad.
But you and j Mac and everyone.
It's a huge part of it, the human side, starting
with the draft, and especially if you're taking a high
school guy, because college does a good job of like
weeding out the guys who just don't have it up
here or in here. They're not gonna usually perform in college,
but in high school you don't know, because you're a
big fish in a little pond, and things tend to
come easier in high school for for for really good players.
So we had this rule where like if as a scout,
if you're gonna expect us to draft a high school guy,
you better write like a Russian novel about this.
And really you have to know makes sense, like you
have to find that.
You have to find like three Well, first of all,
you can't show up draft here and get to know him.
You have to get to know him from like the
time he's a freshman, and you have to talk to
the girlfriends, the ex girlfriends, the teammates, talk to his friends,
talk to his enemies, talk to the teachers, talk to
like the equipment guys. How does he treat them when
no one's looking? And then you have to list like
three examples of how a player of times a player
faced adversity on the field and how he responded, three
examples of a time a player faced adversity off the
field and how he responded.
Just because we're going to invest how you didn't run
a limit, h stand.
But if you're going to get to a point where
you're expecting to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars or
you know, in a round higher than yourself millions of
dollars of mister Henry or mister Ricketts money, like we
have to know not just your skills on the field,
but who you are as a person. So when adversity strikes,
and for you it struck your first year of professional
baseball when you got sick, and how and how how
that person is going to respond. So we felt like
if we were drafting a high school guy, we needed
to know not just you know, who he was as
a person, but even projecting that human being out tenure,
how's he going to act as a twenty seven in
the prime year old in the prime of his career.
So yeah, that's that's a really big part of it.
Yeah, coming well, coming into the Red Sox organization, what
you said brought you brought there to Chicago, the Red
Sox were first class. The whole minor leagues was first class.
They taught me so much respect about the game and
the minor league. I never was a big league camp.
It was just the minor leagues and it was first
class all the way through. So when I did get
over to Chicago, I remember talking to you and you
said to me, hey, like, let me know how we
can get better every way possible, and the cliche when
we first got there, everyone in the organization, oh, well,
this is what we've always done right right, Otis Otis
rest in Peace was strolling out baseballs and shopping carts,
and I'm like, Otis, I go my first big league
camp and I'm just talking to them. Hey, I go,
you think we could get you think we get the
buckets like everyone else has now in the big leagues. He' said, Oh, no,
it's how we've always done it. And I go, Otis,
we haven't won in one hundred.
That's a coincidence. Yeah, it was. It was a big,
big time culture change. But I feel like everyone got
on board right, Like we learned some of the great
things that were already in place in the organization, and
everyone was open minded. The fact that you know, we'd
won in Boston was helpful because people were like, oh,
let's get on board.
But you know, how do you address that though? Like
first day walking in, you're just hey, guys, I'm here.
We're going to do this three hundred page met the
Cubs way Like it was.
It was that that those org meetings, you know, where
I think people were kind of like a little bit
on edd like is this guy just going to come
in and clean house? Is he going to come in
like tell us this is how it's done, and so
I kind of like overdid it on the collaborative side,
making sure every voice was heard, everyone was listening to.
I do believe like empathy is a really powerful tool
in leadership, both in the front office and making sure
people you know, know that you know where they're coming from,
what their hopes and dreams are, what their aspirations are.
Take the time to get to know them, what they're
trying to accomplish, how to put them in a position
to do well. And with players too, Like another lesson
learned along the way from players is we Gary DiSarcina,
who we were like the best. We brought in with
the Red Sox when he was done playing, and we
remember one day is in the office and we were like, oh,
let's go look at your old scouting reports I view
as a player, and he kept looking through the scouting
reports and be like, God, they never told me this.
He's like, you know, had trouble going away, play bad,
two strike approach, whatever. And he's like, man, if they
would have told me this, I would have gotten in
the big league so much quicker. So then we're like, well,
there shouldn't be any secrets, Like why should we be right,
writing evaluations of players not so that's where the remember
individual player development plans and in the leagues, that's where
that came from. Is okay, we're gonna it's our responsibility
to write up for every player in the organization, what
are your straints, what are your weaknesses, and what's a
plan to turn your weaknesses in the strengths like physically,
mentally and fundamentally, So there's no secrets. And then the
player starts. You know, first of all, you develop trust
because you're working together to develop the player. And then
he starts to take charge of his own development, starts
running those meetings and anyway, So that was that's the
culture that you want to create.
And the trust, yeah, trust is. Trust is huge, transparent,
trust is it comes organic.
And that's a big part of being being a GM
or running a baseball organization is like you have to
foster trust with like yourself and the players yourself, and
the manager yourself, and the owner yourself, and the fans
and then all the different constituencies to each other because
when it breaks down, you have, especially in a place
like Boston or Chicago, you just complete toxicity coure and
like your weakest link is going to be exposed in
those markets and then it just becomes chaos. And I've
lived through it, so like going out of your way
to like show that empathy, make sure it's genuine, like
connect people, bring them along, and then you start to
have a culture that like takes over, whereas people like
each other, people trust each other, people know they're in
it together. Like we've both sat on opposite sides of
the table, like contract negotiations, you and I know, out
GM we were like open exchange of like hey, I
don't think you're doing this right way, Like hey I
don't think you're looking at the right way. Let's hash
it out, and like you're not always going to be
on the same side of the table.
But those are so healthy because it's all out in
the open.
And if you learn to do it like directly and
with accountability and with honesty and with trust, like that's
what creates the culture because then people see that, go
our leaders are being honest, they're admitting when they're wrong,
they're being accountable, they're being vulnerable, and then like the
culture of the entire organization starts getting lifted. Whereas if
your leaders are out like when times are tough, like
blaming everybody else or when things are going well, taking
all the credit, like you won't have a corrupt organization
in no time flat. So that's what we were trying
to bring to Chicago. And I thought that the one
great thing be going for is in addition to Tom
and the Ricketts family and like everyone there being so
open and like wanting to change and wanting to win,
and like a loving fan base, like giving us energy
to propelsis we all knew why we were there. You said,
I remember when we traded for you, and I called
you first of all, was like, I told you we
were going to get you back.
You know.
And then someone I don't remember who told me it was.
I believe it was someone in the Boston media when
you traded me. I came back in twenty eleven as
a Padres with the Padres to Boston, and someone in
the Boston media said that was really hard for THEO
and he said he's going to get you back, and
I've never heard him say about a player.
And I get stuck with me because then you traded
for me again.
Yeah, And I was like, and when we were on
the phone, I said, I told you I was going
to get you back and then and you said, like
this is unbelievable, like I want to be part of this.
We're here to win a World Series like first time
in over one hundred years, and you knew that when
we signed you are you coming one mission?
And well, you said you sent us a video. You
had a hype video like before anybody was sending hype videos.
And I got this video, Uh, DVD back, you're right
and put it in and it's like this whole like
it was talking about the day games had Carrie Wood,
it was talking about what the ballparky hell is footage,
and then the video at the end ended with now batting.
It had the World Series on the board, now batting,
David Ross your number up and like and it just
gonna be chills thinking about it that we ended up
freaking doing it. But it's like you had that vision
and the fact that, like you know, they talk about
manifestation and stuff like you your vision and setting the
the process has to go through. But like you, we
all knew what our goal was. And when I signed
in Chicago, it's like, no, there's one goal here. You're
going to get Johnny Lester and like it's time, it's
time to go.
But that wasn't like any great alchemy I came up with.
It was obvious what we were there for. And I
thought the sixteen team, and starting with fifteen for sure,
and even towards the end of fourteen started to come together.
But I didn't have to sit up there and give
some bullshit speeches about what we were trying to accomplish,
Like we all knew what we were there. Why were
you sacrificing? Why are you putting in the hours? Like
why were we going through this grind? It's obvious because
like this group of players that were putting together, that's
coming up through the farm system together. You were the
first one up, and then the other guys came, and
the free agents that we brought in, and the big
money guys and the veterans and know how to lead,
like we're all here for one purpose, and everyone bought
in and that brought us together quickly and in a
way where like we can overcome a lot together. So
we had that go.
Mission when you got there, though we were well, I
was bad, but it was I mean, we're ving. There's
no disrespect to anyone previous. It was just a different time.
But I remember you telling me we were still doing
scouting reports on paper, right triple it.
Yeah, like the carbon paper every teams were having like
like crazy proprietary software system. Our scouting reports are like
on red, green and white paper on Yeah.
I just remember hearing that, and we go from that.
To the the best facility in Mesa to redoing Wrigley.
But when you when you're talking to mister Ricketts in
the family, is this like a hey, I'm gonna this
is my vision.
It's going to take six years, is going to take
eight years? Is it to take three years? Or you
don't put a time limit on the On.
The baseball well, first of all is you know Tom
and his family and then the business side, like they
all did an unbelievable job on on the facilities and wrigglely.
Feels it all happened the same time.
So it was it was a ton of synergy. But
on the baseball side, yeah, I mean kind of it's
kind of cliche, but like laid it out as a
five year plan. One of the reasons I I felt
comfortable coming to the Cubs. I had this dinner with
Tom before and we made everything official. I was like,
I need to know if this guy's like genuine, if
he kind of gets it, and then if he's if
he's pretty like loyal, supportive and patient, and if he
if if if you know, I thought that he wanted
me to come in and like you, I think Prince
Fielder and uh pooh Hols were like the two big
free agents that first offseason. Like if you think you
think I'm coming in to like sign Poohols or Prince
Fielder and like put lipstick on a pig and think
we can compete right away, Like this is not the
place for me. But he was like totally supportive about
doing it the right way. And Paige, so yeah, kind
of laid out a five year plan. We're gonna every
season sacred, but when our long term interests conflict with
our short term interests, we're gonna err on the side
of our long term interest every time. It's probably gonna
mean we have like a few deadlines in a row,
We're trading your favorite player. We're gonna, you know, ask
our fans, be opening up front. He's a big market.
Rebuilding doesn't usually happen, so it was pretty that was
part of the plans. It's like, be honest, be transparent.
Ask our fans like fall the draft, follow our prospects,
follow our minor league system so that they're part of
the journey. And when these guys start coming up here,
you know, things will things will turn around. And remember
telling the fans of Cubs convention because like you know
how that is, you're on the hot seat and they
want to win. Like yesterday, I was like just asking
for patients, hold me accountable, like, you know, if we
don't we don't hit on our first round picks, if
we don't hit on these trades, like you should hold
me accountable. Luckily, for the most part we did. Yeah,
it was a five year plan and uh you know, luckily,
like five years after the day I was tired, we
were playing a World Series game. Every we feel so
I got they got that. Thank god that television man.
Walk us through. So some important trade. Twenty fourteen was
a big trade deadline year for for you.
Like that was the last year that we really remember.
That was because there were a couple of big ones
leading up to that. But thirteen thirteen, yeah, that was
thirty time. We got to fourteen. I remember because we
like we we were all stick and tired of like
trading our best players every trade deadline. But that was
the year we had a chance to like package a
couple of guys together samarjat Addie and Jason Hamill bring aison.
And I remember I think I came out of the club.
I remember, like yesterday I told you it was like,
this is it, Like I remember talking to you because
we we had the relationship and this was.
They were so good.
Seriously, they're like the trades is real fish that story.
But I like you came in and it was like
this is it and we felt it too because we
were getting better in twelve when I called up, we stunk.
Uh Dempster trade was amazing. Thank you Ryan Dempster for
saying that, Hendrick.
Thanks thank thirteen.
So pissed. I was in Atlanta and we haven't heard
we were getting in so yeah, yeah, nofense Paul mahon
but we got like Paul mahoma. Yeah, it was like
you were.
Like we had damn yeah it damp came to me.
He goes, sometimes it's better to be the hammer than
the now. I remember that death was in the office
and at the old he was playing Golden Tea were
trying to trade him, like, come on, Damp, you won't
go to.
That's why I did.
Ryan Dempster's the best there ever is but love you.
And then thirteen Area and Trophy and I'm sure there's
a few others along the way for all all while
we have amazing guys that you're kind of bringing in
as well with Dajesus well jesus Is Ryan Sweeney was
like just really good dudes that were there.
We missed plenty of dudes on the way too, but yeah,
it was starting to come again.
And then the drafts KB, Schwarber, Hobby, how more half.
Hobby and Faris for us, but they came up through
the system with that group.
So just on that contras international, yeah.
But on that point like making those for him, Yeah,
the now I lost my train thought.
Go well, I remember going into twenty fifteen at the
Cubs convention. I was, you know, a young player. I
was coming off my first All Star game, not about
me and I would it was like riding this high.
We just we get Joe Madden, which we'll talk about
getting him, and we signed John Lester.
We get you, and I knew how important he works.
We just met and.
I'm in some school doing something for Cubs charities, and
I liked pop off to the media saying, yeah, we're
gonna win the division this year, like we're gonna do it,
like almost staking a claim before we were even qualified
to do it. But I just believed it.
That's why it was hard and fourteen because you guys
are grinding for so long and it's slowly starting to turn.
I felt bad about trading forty percent of our rotation again,
but I knew that was the last piece, like we
needed another you know, going dynamic infield or with things
that he could do defensively and the bad potential there.
But that's why Cam was like, hey, this is it,
Like if we do our jobs right, this is the
last time we're gonna have to trade. And then it
was obvious by the time we got to fifteen, like
we knew within the organization, within the clubhouse that we
were good and that it was time to the outside
world didn't know. That's why like fifteen with the Cubs
and three with the Red Sox are two of my
favorite years. Like the year before, yeah, we were in
the World Series because it was like our little secret,
like we knew how good we were in fifteen, but
we were in like third place most of the year.
It was it was building. You can see the young
players developing, you can see like the leadership ability starting
to come out, and we knew we were good. We
ended up having that unbelievable run in the playoffs. The
Pittsburgh game is huge, the Cardinals series, But for that
fifteen season, it felt like we knew in the world.
Didn't like we were like a rock band that was
blown up big, but we're still playing like the small clubs.
And then by the time we got the sixteen it's
like the stadium tour. Okay, now it's time. Yeah, it's all.
It's a great but a great way to look at it.
That fifteen team was special.
That was a space. Yeah. We talked about that a lot,
like when do we know we were good? Yeah, you know,
it's kind of when that that San Francisco series everybody's
talked about tell us about going out and getting Joe Madden.
Yeah, so that was that was uh, you know going
into fifteen.
Yeah, and you had a history with interviewing him in
Boston and got the Yeah.
So this is this is after Ricky's first year. So
it's it's off season twenty fourteen. Ten years before that,
we had a managerial opening in Boston after the three
season after Grady Little, and we ran an interview process
and the two finalists for the job were Terry Francona
and Joe Madden. And so have like long interview with Joe.
Loved him, like thought he was like the most unique
baseball mind, like dynamic, creative, three too change, oh yeah,
you know three. But I felt like it was like
just too much, a bridge too far, like the glasses,
like the zaniness about I'm like, if this goes wrong,
the first couple in Boston were fucked and just following
and Tito was the right guy from the job because
he had already managed and Tito, Tito was a hot
shot managerial prospect. You got a chance with the Phillies
and like it didn't go great the first time, but
just like we've talked about, all the lessons that you
learned you can go through the first time just makes
you better your second time. And like that that's really
how you how do you prepare for being like an
elite major league manager by doing it and learning how
to do the job and so Tito was sitting there
and he ended up being the right pick for that job.
But I always had Joe kind of the back of
my mind. And then it was just like dumb luck
that when Andrew Friedman left to go to the Dodgers,
Joe had a clause in his contract made he get
exercised out and become a free agent. So it was
a tough situation because Ricky had just been there a year.
As one of those times where like you can't do
right by everybody. We were kind of in a situation
where we had to either be loyal to Ricky or
be loyal to the Cubs organization, all the fans, like
everything we've been building, and so yeah, your first loyalty
is to the organization. So he ended up making that
move and going hard after Joe.
When he was a perfect fit for our group. Like
he was just like such a like took all the
pressures of the city and the media, and you know,
he just took all that off a young group's play,
even with Oro and he let us, you know, the
veterans and the young guy Joe.
He was the person guy at the perfect time, and
we had struggled a little bit to find like that
right fit with in the major league clubhouse. Like the
morale turned round first in the organization in the minor
leagues and it's got you were a part of that
and you came up kind of quick. But like we
we were, we were we were good, really good, like
the top minor league system, and like we knew we
were good, and our players knew they were good, and
like it started to mean something to be a Cub
and like we said, like that's cub.
You know, and you like McDonald.
So morale was really going going well in the organization,
but we couldn't finish off that last piece. And like
in the major league clubhouse, and it's hard because you've
got veterans who are coming in thinking they're getting traded
at the deadline. You got guys on one year of
free agent contracts, no one sure if they're like going
to be part of it and see it all the
way through to the end. And it was hard. And
you know, we went through our ups and downs in
in in that clubhouse with their chemistry and the way
everyone felt about each other. And then Joe is just
the finishing piece because we knew we had we were
gonna have a really good team. But we're gonna have
a really good young team. And I think one of
Joe's superpowers is his ability to take young players in
the big leagues and what's normally like a three year
adjustment period he can turn into like a six week
adjustment period because he he's just so disarming. He makes
guys feel comfortable. All they have to do is be themselves.
If you think you look hot, wear it. It's like, yes,
that's kind of like a funny little dressing. But it's
a big deal deal because now all of a sudden,
guys came up from minor leagues instead of like trying
to be seen but not heard, just trying to fit in,
Like I'm supposed to put a suit on him in
the big leie, I don't know what to do with
someone better it might yell at me. Joe and with
your guys's help, created this culture where like, no, the
way you fit in is by like play hard, play
your ass off, but be yourself and have fun and
just fucking let it all hang out. Ended up, we
had the youngest group of position players ever to win
a World Seria. Like, think about what we have. We
had like guys twenties.
Yeah, yeah, you're all under twenty six.
Yeah, like rookie catcher playing a lot, Rocky shortstop, Rickie
second base, like all around the field. And I give
Joe a ton of credit for that, especially like his
first couple of years. It's such a culture shock, the
change that he becomes almost this like cult leader figure,
where like everything that he says, everyone buys into and
it completely changes the dynamic. The first few years it
was like, guys, you know, run through a wall for
Joe and do anything. It was a huge part of
what we accomplished.
I know I was going to ask earlier there's a
little bit of a narrative that I had heard and
clarify this, but you wanted to draft a ton of
position players and by your pitching, who kind of ended
what you know, when you go out and get a lester.
We're talking about him next. But yeah, that was that
like a theory going into like the big picture playing
a lot.
That was a strategic approach, mainly because it sort of
makes good good sense if you look at the numbers,
just the injury rates with pictures, but also rebuilding in
a big market. We knew we didn't have like forever,
like you've got to hit on your first round picks,
and and like you can't afford too many misses, or
like someone else is going to be going to be
coming in and running it. In Chicago, it's not like
a small market where you might have a decade to rebuild,
like we had to do it right away. So if
you look at the hit rates with the first round
picks and higher first round picks, position players much much
greater certainty than with pitchers. And obviously position players stay
a lot healthier. And at the time it was, it
was it was real tough to break in young pitching
into the big leaes. Now I think it's flipped with
the way modern pitching has evolved. Now I think it's
almost easier to break in young pitching. It's really hard
for young bats, Like.
Now you need like throw if you throw a hundred
and you could throw strikes.
Here exactly tracked. But back then that was the end
of the era. It was harder to break in young pitching.
So it's like, you know what, let's let's look for
position players where we know their talent, we know they're
going to stay healthy, we know what they bring to
the table, and we know their personalities and their character
because position players also impact your culture way more than
pictures do. So like big part of the reason why
we drafted Schwarber is just like who he is as
a person and as a leader. Chris Bryant like no
risk whatsoever with him, and his personality is like too
good to be true, like all American kids like showing
up and and if you know, we had chances to
draft pictures. There were some good pictures available at those times.
Ever, when I was, we were there, ever picked a
picture we tried, we d it was twelve.
Do you remember your first draft pick?
Twelve was Amara, thirteen was Bryant, fourteen was Schwarber, fifteen
was hot.
Wow about those names, huh? Who had?
Yeah? And then sixteen came around. Even that first round
pick in Schwarber's year. We actually saved money on Schwarbur
because he wasn't supposed to go up high where he did,
so we saved the money and we use that money
on two high school pictures, Dylan Cease and Justin Steele
heard draft and then sixteen Nico Yeah, Nico was was
No Nico was seventeen. After that, Yeah, seventeen or eighteen.
But anyway, nail did well the first round picks on great.
We didn't do so great deeper in the draft, but
can't can't nail them all. But no, it was good.
But a big part of drafting the position players was
we only have one chance to do this. Get the
certainty they can affect the culture, and then like, we're
going to be good, So let's let's use our chips
to trade for some now pitching and then if if
we have a free agent bullet to fire, let's bring
in some pitching that's ready to win and knows how
to do it. And that's where John Lesner perfect guy
at the perfect time, because we'd we'd hit on Hendrix
with a small trade, we hit on Areata with another
another deadline deal.
That's when I knew there's gonna be good. We faced
him and we almost do that no hitter in Boston
and I played that guy.
Oh it was yeah.
I mean he was the nastiest stuff.
He always had like the elite stuff, but he was
just he was kind of out of his comfort zone
in Baltimore. There he wasn't himself, he wasn't comfortable, and
we got him it was just like our whole plan
was tell him, like, hey, we just want you to
be yourself, like here's what we see. And he showed
up and he said like, guys, can I please be myself?
Were like, yes, that's why you're here, and he was.
He was up so quickly. But then so we had
those two.
Guys and then handled back. You know.
Yeah, but Lester was a huge part of it because
we needed we needed like another a leader on the
pitching staff, meaning someone who'd won before, and we needed
we needed some like grit and something, yeah the resume
and you bring in Lester and Lackey and like now
it's not now now you're young guys are going to
like get tough and you and gonna get toughened up
in a hurricane. It's like these days it's just not
there's not as much like of the veteran toughness, like
tougher up the young players and the bailies. But back then,
the veteran players weren't afraid to like tell the young guys, yes,
be yourself, but like this is the standard we're holding
you to, and like this is.
How you win.
And you guys, you know, the guys who we brought
in who'd won, like Lester and Lackey and you, like,
they weren't shy, and that really helped take the.
Call told Johnny told the story about you going like this, Yeah,
when he signed, can you give me a swee on
the road, you just kept drinking your beer going to.
Five and answers the question how many beers I need
to have to give David Ross a multi yr contract?
So the answer was about stabbing. Yeah, that was but
we knew, we knew, you know, one of the things
comes with Don Lester is like he's got to have
a catcher that is his and that he believes in.
And we had already had our eye on you because
we needed a couple more leaders in the room who
who were thoughtful and intentional about winning and creating the
right time. Right we're trying to transition from just like
young and talented but losing culture to like winning and
winning now.
And you're traded for Maggie that offseason too.
I was going to say that, making, in my opinion,
the most underrated trades. And when I was there in
the franchise, because he brought that edge, he was able
to communicate really well with the Latin players as well.
He spoke great or good, very good broken English. He
still speaks very good broken English. But he's a great dude.
Because you got Joe and a bunch of like twenty
year old players running around and like penguins and the
zoo and stuff, and we were great at having fun,
but we also needed that like the tough bildt in
that edge and accountability about what we're trying to accomplish
because it was time to go, like we weren't mess
around anymore. And so you guys and all the players
we mentioned like really brought that head.
So you feel good fifteen going into the offseason. You
really we had a heartbro heart broken heart David Dania Murphys.
I never forget I've don'e say, but great dude player
with them good teammates.
We're gonna let you go out and you get you know, Heyward,
you get Lacky, you get Zoe, Like I mean, like
now you got some dudes that have been around and
like really big contracts. But and obviously those guys were
big part, but like a real one that we don't
talk about, like the Dexter walk us through the Dexter,
bringing dex back like that, that's you kind of rigal.
Were like done with them, right, like go to your thing,
and he was still there and yeah, come March, you.
Stayed in touch.
We traded, we traded for him and going into his
contract year and we're like, because there were you know,
Dex had a weird reputation in Denver, like obviously it
turned out not to be fair at all, but like
his reputation was kind of tracker coming out of Denver
because people hadn't taken the time to get to know him,
and he had some maturing that took place along the way.
But he came. We were like, hey, this guy's super talented.
He's a great fit. We see some things with his defense,
like play him a little deeper that a little help
played super shell, super fallow like underrated bat gets on bass,
has some pop re would be really good for him.
And we brought him in like contract year, he's going
to like be all into it and put up big numbers.
And he came and what a revelation like awesome guy,
unbelievable teammate, glue guy, like happy putting smiles on people's
faces all the time. But it was almost like when
you when you trade for someone, you bring him in
and they you you sort of have him pegged at
a certain level and then they outperform. Its like ship
Dex is gonna He's gonna get like a deal deal here,
and so you know, we you know, we had targeted
like Jay, we needed a right fielder, and it was
we would just assume, like Dex is going to get
like more years and we're comfortable with and we had
assumed he was gone. But like because of the relationships,
you know, we had Dex and I had I know,
he became super tight with you guys right away, huge
part of the team. But I stayed in touch with him,
was on you know, it gets backed up like honesty
and accountability. I was like, hey, I think you played
so well. It's going to price out a little bit,
but just stay in touch. His agent, Casey Close, is
a great guy. Might hey, Casey, just stay in touch
if I could help Dex in any way, like you know,
get on the phone with the GM and talking about
what kind of teammate he was, whatever, like you know,
let me know what you need. And it became clear
like it was just one of those offseasons. We hadn't
lined up for him. So I remember talking Lady was
about to sign with Baltimore, but by that time we
had acquired Sobris traded Starlin to kind of free up
the spot and free up some of the money we
obviously had signed Jay Hay And then you know, it's
my job as a GM, Like, you know, you have
a super talented team. I thought part of my job
is think through every way a team that's talented enough
on paper to go win ninety five to one hundred wins,
think of every way everything that could come up that
could get in the way of that happening. What what
are like the six things that could happen where we're
not We're not like deep enough, we don't have enough
to see. Well, that's that's what you got to do,
because like it's it's such a pet peeve where like
you have a bad year and you had a lot
of injuries. At the end of the year, like, well,
you know we had those injuries. It was a bad yea.
You know you're gonna have injuries, right, You're gonna have
injuries every year, So you have to build depth. So
we're like, look, Deck's on a one year deal. If
chance that he would come back. Is a total no
brainer because now all of a sudden, you know you
can have decks and center day plays. Right, You've got
now Solaire and Schwarber and we can rotate and get
get guys enough at baths. But if someone goes down,
now we're totally covering. And sure enough first week of
the season Swarbur ends up going down. But dex Is
just it was like too good to be true to
get him back on one year, and it was like
it was meant to be.
Like the icing on the cake honestly to already an
amazing offseason of bringing in.
Lackey, yeah, Jay Hay and Zobras, and he left money
on the table to come back, and he wanted to
be part of it. You know, he had such a
good time. That's where you get rewarded for the culture,
great culture as you guys created in the clubhouse, like
first of all words spreads in the big players talk
all the time. You get to be known as a
place where people want to play, and that's huge. And
then guys like we have there no trade to come
here or want you know, destination and free agency or
a guy who gets kind of like hosed in the
market will come back, right, Like Deck's on a one
year deal and he just wanted to be part of
it because he was a big part of the building.
He wanted to see it through. So just all all
different ingredients of what was set up a magical year
for us in sixteen where we were on a mission.
So I think it's important too, like bringing in Decks.
You can't just bring in a guy where Decks maybe
had a little history in Colorado to a team that doesn't.
Have established guys already.
Yeah, that will welcome him, right because I remember, like
in with the Yankees, we bring in you bring in
a polarizing figure like Juan Soto to a massive clubhouse
ready that you have Carlo Stanton and Aaron Judge, Garrett Cole,
a lot of clouded guys there, and you bring in
another superstar.
It doesn't always work.
First of all, reputations aren't always accurate. A lot of
guys spend time like cultivating the reputation as a teammate,
and it's not always the right ways. You got to
talk to guys who are in the clubhouse with them,
who really know what a player is all about. Secondly,
like how a guy behaves or in one market might
not translate to another. And how a guy acts at
like twenty four isn't how he's going to act that
at twenty years. Guys change or human beings like it's
you know you, you go a long way, like seeing
what guys bring to the table instead of saying, like
being worried about what they might not do. That's not perfect. Sure,
that's a great example. He ended up being the best teammate.
It's not about me, but we'll like I had firsthand
experience to that. You trade. I got released in Cincinnati
for a bad reputation. You bring me in to Boston
and eight and one of the yeah, mid season and
one of the two things you were were honest with me.
I had a three offers and you said, we'll call
you up before September so you can be a free agent.
And then at the end of the year, we went
all the way to the Championship Series, the Raise, and
you called me in the office said, hey, Rossie, I
just want you to be transparent with you. We loved
having you here. We're gonna try to bring Tech back,
but if not, we'll be in touch. And your reputation
in Cincinnati was not that great. We loved you here,
but I just wanted to know what people are saying
about you, so you you know what's you know it
it was. It was a little bit of a selfish
part and you I needed that. I needed that, and
that that changed my whole career. Like from that point,
I was just like, I'm never gonna have anybody say
that about me again. And then I got such a
good reputation at the back end in my career.
Your reputation at that time because you had kind of
lost a little bit of playing time. Yeah, it was
a tough situation. It was like, oh, this guy, he's
not someone you want as a backup, because the backup
has to be like all in it front the pitching staff,
unselfish on it for the team, and like he's worrying
about that bats a little bit. But you were a
good fit. We brought you in anyway with their catcher,
and then you were so impressive, awesome teammate. And then
I remember in those the postseason advanced meetings you were
you just kind of blew me away because like he's
the new guy and you got tech and the whole
coaching staff and all the advanced guy. Kevin Cash was
there too.
Yeah.
I mean three probably three future managers sitting right there
with the three catchers. But you were you. You weren't
afraid to speak up, and you spoke like directly, and
everything had like a lot of substance. I'm like, man,
this guy like sees the whole game. He's not afraid,
and he like understands how to win and as a teammate,
and then also like the game within the game. So
it was the day after we got eliminated. I remember
I was, we were down in the club that clean,
so I was I was gonna leave and I and
I saw you. I'm like, he probably needs to hear
this because you been such a good teammate for us. Okay,
just so you.
Know, career changing for me, like career change, and it's
in my book. Like again it's not about me, but
like that was legit and and look at my I
go to Atlanta after that for four years, go back
to Boston win and then but my reputation after that
was like you know because of that, because I was
like yeah, yeah, but I was intentional because I was
like nobody's I didn't want that to be I didn't
feel that way about myself, But you're right, you do
get caught up in your own ship.
But you have to kind of own it too.
You have to own now.
Now, look what you can own. You can own being
the guy who like understands how a winning team works.
And you were the guy that we turned to who
wasn't an everyday player, who could like understand the pulse
of the team, understand who needed to, you know, have
their ass kicked, who needed who needed a lot on
the back, who needed to like make sure you take
them out to dinner.
You just you know, I just want to get him
because that was that was what I've already told you
all this. But you know how important that.
Yeah, no, no, it's good and you earned it again
with the kind of teammate. So but you know, all
this stuff that we're talking about, like it all goes
back to relationships, honest conversations and like doing yeah, and
building trust and doing things the right way, and like again,
like how laughable is it that sometimes people think all
that matters is you know what a projection says on
a spreadsheet or a model predicts. Because it's all this
stuff that goes into like winning teams and then building
winning organizations. You know, the organization has to withstand a
ton of adversity at the highest levels in a big
market like that, it's got to be pressure tested. And
it's like the people and the relationships and the trust
that ultimately pressure tested.
So the adversity we went through Shoreber going down, right,
like we get dexts, you've got depth, like.
That was a huge adversity. I mean we faced a
little bit versus We did that with Shober going down.
We played like shit at the end of the first half.
In twenty sixteen, you guys, we came out of that
and no problem, but by and large it was a
season out as much diversity as you typically, right, we
face our adversity in each of the postseason series. I
mean the San Francisco Game four, you know, all of
a sudden, you're you're not more shows, right, is not
more his change up, but change us? And like, all
of a sudden, now we're you took him deep up
besides you, but uh down three runs, you know, going
into ninth then and you're like, god, we're facing Johnny Quato.
Even you're at home, even you're even even like the
umpire was but like the umpire matchup, who's gonna behind
the plate, wasn't. I remember like melting in my seat,
like we're not gonna We're not going out in the
first round with this team this way. And then you all,
you know everything that happened in that that ninth then
is Chris Bryant, you know, gets hit, you get the walk,
it just gets gets the double. Then Wilson and Hobby
you get this, and you just saw like this, you
saw the resilience and the characters team just like blossom
on the big stage against the three time defending champs
in their ballpark on the road. It's like I remember
being so fired up after that game. Legendary flight home too,
but being so fired up because it was like, Okay,
we're not we didn't have a great regular season, like
we're here to fucking compete, and then we faced adversity
in the Dodger Series. We didn't hit, we didn't hit
at all, and like we were in kind of like
a death spire.
Well we know we would turn that around, the.
Whole thing around, and then we get to you know,
drop the hammer with like a perfectly played game in
Game six at home.
With.
Approach like one inventor approach. Our whole team took against Kershaw, you.
Know deep like rookie just getting calling, even like.
Dex and KD with the opposite field knocks early like
saying like no, we're not in it to try to
take you deep, We're in it to like beat you
and this is what we're gonna do to win. It
was and then we fit obviously the adversity in Cleveland.
So what you guys is built like the pressure tested
bonds that you had, and like that, the brotherhood in
the clubhouse and what we built as an organization stood
up to the adversity.
That's why you see all the camaraderie, right, and we
get through, we go through the shore diversity, we go
through that end of the first half adversity. We're still
very confident. We're still all talking about how we're gonna win,
how like it's already happened. And you get to the
trade deadline, and it's the biggest boost any team you
can of our caliber get is you go out and
get a roll. This Chapman for us, and he's the
best reliever on the market. He's the Cuban missile. He's
throwing one hundred. He's this polarizing figure. That move alone
for us inside was like, all right, boys, this is it.
This is like look what we did. Look what they're
doing ownership and THEO here you go, believe in USAT
on the ass, go get them.
Yeah, that's a big one that I think is just
trad design acquisitions in general, Like from the outside looking
in and then or if you take just a purely
analytical look at baseball, you don't understand the impact that
it has in the clubhouse because like these guys have
done all their off season work, grind it all spring training,
put the nuts on the line the whole season, and
then they look at the front office like, you guys
have one fucking job. One job like get us.
That is how we look at the during the season.
And trust me, we can feel one job like get
us what we need. And like I've been through years
where like you just can't get it because you're you're
asking to be paid like five x the prices and
you just can't do it, and you feel like like
you just let everybody down. So take it very personally
as an organization, like we need, we need to deliver
with these guys we're not gonna always mortgage the future,
and we can't get caught up. But we have to
do our job and give these guys what they need
because it gives you that set, that boost of of energy,
and then you feel connected, like hey, they have connect
The sacrifice was worth it. It has it has an
amplifying effect. Certainly that was That was a deal that
I would have mocked it if someone else did it
because from from it from a purely analytical standpoint, because
it didn't make sense. Because Glbra Torres was, of course
really good prospect. Like I thought at the time, I
kind of comped him to like Martine Prado. He's gonna hit,
he's gonna he's not gonna play short he's probably gonna
play second base. He's gonna control the strike zone, he's
gonna hit for a high average. Hes gonna have a
good career. I didn't see the power necessarily come in
at Yankee Stadium. Obviously, he elevated the ball really well
on the opposite field, so he had a couple of
big home run seasons. Jakc had a really good career.
But for us, like we we had Addie, we had
Hobby up the middle, we had strategically signed Eloymans and
Glebra Torres above slot in the internet national market a
couple of years sooner, saying like, hey, if we need
to finish off this team, we're gonna have some really
good no Way prospects that we can trade and finish
it off. And so we tried hard to get Andrew
Miller because he was under control. He wasn't just a
rental whereas Chap he was a rental. Cash was smart,
like they wouldn't trade us Andrew Miller. We didn't ment
up at all. By the way, everyone was asking for
Schwarbur too at the time because he was on the
d L no Way. They were all trying to like
Bui low on Schwarb's things like god, there's no yeah,
And that was a tough one, was like we can't
after this guy's literally given.
His leg.
Leg Yeah, but it was so it didn't make sense,
and like you've got a lot of the analystsying like, hey,
this deal doesn't make sense. But at the same time,
like again, it's more than the numbers, like it was
a mission. We were all in it together. We also
knew that like our pen had done a great job.
We had gotten run on in the Rule five draft
years before. May was doing a great job as a
set up guy. But both guys were like Strop he
was feeling it. His his his body was getting a
little bit beat up. Rondome. Rondome was starting to throw
some show some like chinks in the armor a little bit.
We're like, is this the pen that's going to get
us like outs nineteen through twenty seven in the postseason games,
when he is like probably not. Like if we have
a week link, that's it. And if you look at
it in the postseason, like dominant closers, especially ones you
can throw multiple innings, are disproportionately valuable in the postseason
compared to the regular season. He was a guy Kaffy
just throws one inning and sometimes you have three lead. Yeah, sure,
you rest in the postseason, you get those extra days,
Like he's gonna throw a greater percentage of your innings.
He's gonna like Game five of the world, that's why
you get a third he has he's the most important
player in that game. There were a lot of important
players in that game, but like what he came came
into a jam gets you eight outs, like knocks down
the game. So it was an overpay on paper, but
like for what we were building. Remember at the time,
it telling the media like look if not now when
like we have everything to this point, we know what
we need. It's the same thing with No Mar you know,
different circumstances, but the No Mark had been through it,
you know four with the No Mark trades, Like we
had a fatal flaw with that team. It was our defense.
So we ended up trading No Mar for two guys
are written like a buck eighty at the time, but
they were great defenders, Orlando and Doug mn Kavid, And
it was like that was our fatal flaw. We got
to fix it. We were anticipating our bullpen being our
fatal flaw, and Tappy was the guy to get even
an overpay situation. Thank got it worked out and then
but also we did some like some more nuanced deals,
like Mike Montgomery was a guy we also got a
ends up getting the ends up getting the last out
of the World Series. He was the guy we got
for the future. But we're like, you know what, now
he throws a curveball. Now he's throwing ninety six, Like
he'll be pretty good out of the pen for us.
So it's it's an organization wide effort, but there's I'm
not saying you have to always get exactly what the
team is looking for. I try not to travel with
the team leading up to the deadline because you guys
are just we need this, we need that, and you
can kind of get caught up in it. But there's
a there's a price to pay if you don't reinforce
a good team. Psychological cost I think is kind of underappreciated.
Since we overpaid for Glabor I got for Chappy. It's
ten years later. Do you think we can give I
told Glabor this when I put it, I think he
deserves a ring. It's because we don't get Chatty.
I loved it.
He's like, Bro, He's like, really, you think I've deserved
He's like, yeah.
Bro, without you, we don't get Chappy if THEO doesn't trace.
He's a great dude, and I'm pumped. He's of their
career that he's had, and he's been.
In a lot of he's had a good one. One
of the ones. The funny story we've got going around,
I need your perspective on We talked about the Seattle game,
right Ryan Mattis come in pitching. Uh you stir up
the whole pitching staff that nobody Yeah, yeah, the whole rotation.
And then uh, Joe said, you went on a walk.
Obviously he didn't have a great start. It's not about him.
But we start coming back talking about diversity and things
we overcame, and and Lester walks it off with the
with the squeeze bunt, but walk us through your whole
process and that because I know Joe said you had
to go on a walk. You're so mad at Yeah.
Yeah, I was mad at myself for sometimes you can
outthink yourself and like you're balancing different interests in the
organization and ultimately, as the GM, you have to make
the final call. And I talked about part of the
GM's job is like anticipate everything they can get in
the way of you guys having the season that you
should have and then try to try to reinforce it.
So I was always kind of about running out of pitching,
like we're gonna run out of pitching. So the year
before we got like Trevor k Hill off the scrap
Heap sent him to the minor league, Real built in
and he came out through some big annings for us,
even pitched some good endings in the posts. You're always looking, yeah,
you're always looking for a guy like that that you
can like get for nothing, send a triple A like
fange of scenery. And then if some guy goes down
after the trade deadline, like if you have a couple
of pictures to get hurt after the trade deadline, if
you haven't built up a ton of depth, you're in trouble.
So Madis was a guy really talented left hand or
form of first round pick with the Orioles, was kind
of down on his luck. We brought him in on
a minor league deal. Our guys tweaked a few things.
He worked hard, he was throwing the crap out of
ball triple A. We're like, this guy could be almost
like a left handed version of Ko for us, where
he comes up if we have an injury after the
trade deadline September call ups, like he can be a
third lefty if a couple of guys get hurt. But
he had an out in his minor league deal. This
is in July. I think it was like the third
week of July or so, and so the only way
he was starting and the only way that we could
get him to prevent him from using his out was
if we called him up to the big leaues. But
we didn't have a spot. And then like we had
this idea, Well, if we just give all our start,
we're rolling. So if we just give our starters an
extra day's rest, just bump everybody one day, which in
the big picture is good, good for their arms. Even
though it's disruptive and lesser and lacky. You're gonna want
and Jake are gonna want to kill me. It gets
mad Is up here, we can get a look at him.
It keeps them from using his out. And now we've
added to our depth and he might be a good
guy in the pen for us down the line. I'm like, Okay,
our pro scouting guys, and I think this is no brainer,
Like why wouldn't you add the depth? And like, I
know the guys in the clubhouse, we're gonna want to
kill me. What do we do? So I'm like, you
know what, you can never go wrong with depth, so like,
fuck it, we're doing it. So I remember going town,
I talked to Leicester, talked about Leicester was pissed because
he had like a whole break and when he was pitching,
got the way the golfing and Kenny Kenny Fish Yeah.
Yeah, wait for the record, I think we won like
ten or twelve after that.
Yeah.
But so I'm like, all right, we're my call. We're
doing it, you know. And it was like adding to
how uncomfortable was I believe it was Sunday night baseball. Yeah,
Sunday night baseball again. So I'm like, we're kind of
this is kind of weird that all of a sudden
Brian Maddens the team's rolling, but we're gonna Brian Mattis
come up and start a game on Sunday baseball was
the right thing for the depth. So I'm like, god,
I hope this goes well. I don't want to I
don't want to have like cause this disruption for nothing.
First ending boom homer, Robbie Cano boom homer, and I
think it was three homers and the top.
Of the first got quick, nothing fast.
So I was so mad at myself. I'm like, this
is all my fault. I'm like, I should have just
said no, we're not We're not breaking up a good thing.
I was like so mad. I was just so pissed
to myself. I was like, yead, let's let's get the
fuck out of here. We're going for a walk. So
like I grabbed Yeah. I'm like I can't watch this,
this is this is pathetic. I'm like, I have to
get I'm so mad at myself. Let's go talk this over.
And like we're going for a walk. So I grab
Jed and we go. We just start walking north, which
is like not always the direction you want to go
for make me feel so like we walk up to
like uptown and we're like, you know, like passing people out,
passing people were like drinking, like homeless dudes, like people
on this spirit. We're just like walking and walking and walking,
and I'm just beating myself up, like why did I
do that? Everything was going so good, and I'm like,
all right, I know what I need to do, Like
I need to go back and when we lose this game,
because we're down six and nothing, like, I need to
be there as the guys are walking off and I
just need to like own it. I'm just gonna apologize
to the guys. It'll probably mean a lot to them
and be like, hey, this is my idea. I cost
us the game today not bad. You know, I'm gonna
own it won't happen again. Sorry for causing the disruption.
So I start walking. We start walking back, and as
we're walking back, we start to hear the Wrigley Field
crowd started a couple of roars, getting I'm like, oh,
we're we're calling crawling back a little bit. So I
get down to the clubhouse and we're still losing by
a few runs late, and I'm like, all right, just
get this thing over where I can apologize to everybody,
and then the craziness happens. We tie it up extra endings.
Lester wins the game with a squeeze and he come
in now instead of apologizing and everyone, I'm just sitting
down there like I fuck this up, but you guys
picked me up and I was fired up and it
was but it just shows like the connection that we
all had, and I'm like, you guys put so much
into this, even one game. We had like a twelve
game something at the time, but like it's just everything matters,
and like, if I was gonna I screwed that up,
and if I was, there was about reason for trying it.
But I still made the wrong call, and it's like you,
we expect you guys to own it when you make
a mistake, and like I needed to own it to
you guys. And then just the fact that you came
back in that game, Like every other team has a
twelve game lead, down six to nothing, quits and that
k game is over. But you guys grinding back and
the way we want it.
But I think that's part of the adversity you're talking about.
You helped develop that throughout the season. But yeah, I'll
never forget walking in and you were so pumped, uh
hugging everybody was, like I thought, I fucked it up
in Safe.
I just don't forget it that you played for how
many years? Yeah, fifteen fifteen, kissed me off. I played
for fourteen. I know he does get.
Me and on the golf course and.
On the golf course, damn it. I got him yesterday though.
But you just don't get that leadership, the front office
leadership coming down and talking to you like that on
any team I've ever been on. It was really only that.
There are a lot of gms to do it. And
I learned from the best in Kevin Towers, Like I
don't know if you guys have heard the KT stories,
but he was him and Boach that Boach was his manager,
KT was the GM, and they were just in lockstep,
and you know, they were intertwining with the players and
just totally understood the clubhouse now where Boach just learned
a ton from Boat too.
Oach is great. And I got to play for Boach
under KT for a minute. And the KT traded me
in spring training from San Diego to Cincinnati, and he
asked me there were three teams interested, and he asked
me where I wanted to go. Really yeah, came to
me and changed like, Hey, I'll be talking all night.
Go go home, talk to your agent and let me
know what you guys think. And we ended up it
was Seattle, I think, Washington or Cincinnati, and I thought
the best chance to play with Cincinnati. So and then
that's where I connected with Bronson, who you know obviously,
but yeah, Kat was the best.
Good But we haven't I listened to a couple of
episodes awesome podcast, by the way, Thank You'm proud of
you guys. Ten years later, but and what stands out
is just obviously the togetherness of the team and the
family that you guys built down there, and obviously I
was there, I was aware of it, felt like connected
to a part of it. But what's great about doing
the job that I got to do is we had
the same thing like in the front office. Oh, you
haven't talked enough yet in the podcast yet about like
Kaed leaving his job in San Diego to come work
with me and Jason Jason McCleod. Same thing, guys. I'd
know him for Randy Bush who had been there in Chicago,
and thank god we didn't blow him out of there
and we got there. Huge part of the fact, Scott Harris,
young Buck coming up from the bottom and like all
the scouts and all the development guys like you guys
probably saw it when we brought out all the yeah,
all the staff on the warning fact in the World series.
That meant the whole staff just.
As tight as you guys were, and how much those
experiences away from the field meant to you with the
team you had in the clubhouse, we had the same
thing in the front office. So it's what makes the
job amazing is you get to feel like I'm like connected,
I'm not part of everything goes on downstairs, but I'm
connected to it, a little part of it, and then
we get that same awesome feeling up in the front office.
It's got that way.
You hired me as a special assistant, and like being
a part of that and being on most emails when
you send them out after every game, you're talking about
how the game went, and you know the things, Hey,
we're not really not pitching now. It's just like that communication.
It's like it is another another team within the team.
And being in there and the the trade dead line
and those meetings, it's like you guys, you know, front
offices work their tail off to try to try to
just any little you know, And after I got to
be up there, I would go back down the class
like you guys have no idea, Like they want everybody
to be the best version of this set. Like I
think there's this there was a misconception. When you're a
player and you get to be in it, you're like, no,
they want everybody to be.
The natural mindset is a player or like an analyst
or someone grinding on numbers, Like, oh, they're just trying
to find something to use against me, whether it's like
not extremely or use against me in a contract or
trade me someday or whatever. You're right, Like the reality
is there, and we've probably gone too far like shitting
on the number side of baseball, because it's just another
way of seeing the truth about the game. It's just
it's it's a parallel universe to what we've talked about
the ingredients that go into winning. The analytical side is
it's just as resonant and just as true. It's just
it's just a different way of looking at the game.
But their guy analysts staying three four hours after a
night game, like grinding until two three in the morning,
trying to find like one small insight, one small piece
of information to like help position you a little bit better,
to like turn a hit into an out that maybe
wins us that that helps your fielding rating, and then
turns maybe one loss into a win that gets us
sense of the postseason. So like that's their grind, sure,
and that's just as valid as everyth So when you
have an organization where like everyone sacrifice, everyone knows their role,
and they're all just grinding to find a way to
put the players in a position to win.
Like that, we had Tommy Hottevey who's now the pitching
coach for the clubs, and Nate Holm, who is now
working for the Baltimoreials in their front office somewhere two
guys on the inside that were connected to the front
office that were you know we call we mess with,
we call them like little moles. But they would do
anything for us to get us that edge. Nate would
stay up hours, Nate, I'm grinding, give me something, find
something in my stride, and he would do.
He would grind all day with him and Maine and.
And those guys were so invaluable because they could they
could walk in both worlds.
They come upstairs, and those guys are so important.
But you you saw them, you didn't always get to
see the infrastructure, the analysts, the guys who are like
just never get any credit, who are grinding behind the
scenes to give the information to Aid and Tommy. So
it's just a massive organization bid effort, which is why
when it comes down to the margin of error being
like is Zoe's ball three inches to the right, or
or is I heard Ramiro?
Did you hear that told us that we had.
Like that's the margin of us doing a podcast ten
years after you doing Bluetooth full time for your job
is like three inches and you think about in exactly,
but that's that's the difference. And you think about how
many people have put in countless hours big parts of
their like personal lives, family sacrifice, their emotional life. What
it means to them, like the pride that they feel
in being a Cub and being part of something bigger
than themselves that we talked about earlier, and in the
in the margin of winning and losing is always raisor
thin in the big leases, as you guys know better
than anybody. So it's like, man, we're grateful to have
been to have been part of this, and like it
wouldn't have happened without that for every everybody.
When we uh, when we beat Kershaw at Wrigley Game six,
I don't see it the way we beat them, the
way Wrigley was like it was rocking, it was it
was euphoria, honestly, it was Honestly, we won the World
Series right there.
Well, but that's how that's how our fans were celebrating. Yeah,
they were. Everyone was so happy. Not on the inside.
I remember on the inside where we were saying, hey,
this is not over, like we have more to go.
But what were what do you think in there, You're
you're the head.
Yeah, I mean it was. It was a spectacular night
because we it was like a statement game, you know,
the way the way we had played, the way we played,
the way the young guys performed, the way Henders performed,
the fact that we had Dodger was a hall of
the team and a great organization was more to come
obviously from them, but like we put the hammer down that,
like you know, we're we're the dominating guys to that
we're the best team in baseball. And then just just
just the fact that like that meant there was going
to be World Series Baseball at Wrigley Feel for the
first time since World War Two, Like I just that's
how I felt. I had just chills, and I ended
up well. We had the awesome party at Lester's house
that night that was legendary and Eddie playing and everyone
grabbing a guitar and everything. And then actually Eddie and
I went back after Lester's. We went back to Wrigley
and the als, the American Leage Trophy was sitting there,
Nationally trophy was sitting there in vj's office. I was
just like staring at it. And then we go out
to were like says, you guys can touch it. Yeah,
we're touching, but I'm staring at it, like, oh my god,
the World Series is going to be played here in
like a week. And then we're throwing batting practice to
each other. And then like me Eddie, a couple of
our guys who go out to the center field and
we're just laying in the grass and center field looking
up at the scoreboard and the clock and the sun.
It's now like six thirty in the morning or whatever.
Said the sun starts rising above. It was like, holy fuck,
we just won the pennant. We're about to have the
World Series. I Wrigley Field, So that's that's what I
was thinking.
Wow.
And then it's like how we how we're going to
win four more four more games?
Wow?
So we we go. We we split there in Cleveland,
we come back to Wrigley. Game three at Wrigley was
a weird atmosphere.
Weird, right.
I remember, you know, like huge day. World Series is
finally being played at Wrigley Field. And I remember I
had like a couple obligations around town, like you know,
things for the business side or whatever. And in the morning,
and I remember going around town and the vibe even
around town. I don't know if you got out that
morning at all, but the vibe was like a ghost town.
It was like really weird. And in my mind, I'm thinking,
Wrigglely is going to be bananas, like it was yeah
in Game six. But we get there and it was
like a wet fart. It was just like Wrigley was
was off, like it was just anxiety. I felt we
didn't give. We didn't we couldn't give much, but there
wasn't a lot. We weren't getting a lot from the
fans either, and I felt like it was just like
too much. It was like just everyone was on edge and.
Maybe too sentimental.
Who knows, We're just so much anticipation had gone into
it that kind of like can't live up to it.
So I felt that way in Game three and even
parts of Game four, and then you get the Game
five and now our season's on the line. In those
first few innings when we weren't hitting, Kb's homer was
a huge because it changed the whole vibe in.
The ballpark so many times every series.
Right first series, we come back Game four and I'll
see us the bunt to turn around. KB had massive
home runs in that series to get the offense going.
You drove in, drove in the right. You had that
about fly right, yeah, yea.
And then.
It was with Grand Slam know when.
And then Chappy that's when he comes in for the.
And he gave me a shout out for speech.
So I was pumped about did you have that can
actually come back those three one?
Like II, I'm wired.
I'm wired to pessimistically, like I see I just I
believe in players, and I believe in teams, and like
I see the hope, but like my inner dialogue tends
towards the worst case scenario. Of course, just for that
reason why we were talking earlier about imagine everything that
can get in the way you winning the World Series,
everything getting the way of you winning your ninety eight
games or whatever, and then planning for it. That's what
drives me, is like my paranoid like, oh, you know, fu,
did we have enough pitching? Or what happens if this
guy gets turd or whatever. So that's kind of what's
going on in my mind as I'm like, oh, we
didn't follow the report here, Like I kind of I'm
just like I'm just hanging on every pitch because you're powerless.
You saw it when you came out of the game.
You're never more nervous. And when you're done playing.
No doubt, and you're especially as a manager, you don't
really I mean, you've got some control, but you're not
really playing yet.
So I'm just like nervous and like kind of worrying
and chearing you guys on and following along the advance
of court. But so I'm not I'm thinking, like if
just win tonight and get back to Cleveland, which I
think is what we all felt. And then the party
after Game five was pretty sick too, going to Murphy's
in it and then getting that day off the next day.
The players asked for it, and Joe and and and
all of a sudden, front offs were like, yeah, go
have Halloween. Yeah fly there, And then that flight was awesome,
and then who knows if we.
Were all inside we knew we were going to roll
Game six.
We knew, we thought, but then we got out. We
scored early in that game was huge, Baby's homer and
then ADDIE's graz slam. Then it was like, Okay, now
our Chester are really puffed out, and it almost reminded
me of when we came back on the Yankees and
we were down three not Ortiz won two games with
two walk offs in games four and five to get
us back to New York. It was like, once we
got back to New York, now the pressure was on
the Yankees, and we felt like we were the ones
like laying down the hammer. And once we started scoring
those runs in game six, it was like, Okay, now
the pressure is on those guys. But you guys know
game seven, You guys played in the World Series Game seven, Like,
you know what that's It's just crazy. That's that's a
Russian novel in and of itself. It's like, there's no
such thing as momentum going into a Game seven. There
were so many twists and turns that game. It was ridiculous.
Yeah, I mean when we won game six, I remember
going to bed at Game seven.
I didn't sleep.
Did you really not sleep?
Like hour?
At four or five in the morning. I'm just tossing
a turn. I'm talking to Emily. I'm like, hey, you up.
She's like yeah, I'm like fuck.
I'm like, you know, you just get like I got
maybe an hour at a time of sleep and I'm
up just thinking I don't want to be late.
What time should I get to the field? Because get
into the field was an awkward amount.
I didn't hit VP because it was just a circus
out there, So I took the last bus. Probably got
there at four, which is still four hours before the game.
But what did you do the night? The night before
were like, did you I mean a lot of planning to.
Joe, Yeah, going through like game plan all trying to
find ways to contribute even though you kind of can't,
but just make sure you have all the right conversations
and everything. And then my wife Marie and my then
eight year old son Jack flew in. I took him
to I took him to the there's like a science
museum and I took him there to try The day
of Game seven is trying to get my mind off it. Yeah,
remember we sat in the little Ombi theater watched the
movie about going to Mars or whatever, and he's like
locked in. I'm like, all I'm thinking about is like
fucking Fluber's fucking two scene. But yeah, a good time.
Where did you where did you watch? Would you say?
Obviously the clips right behind home.
Yeah, watched most of the game, like in the scouts
section with Jack my son and Marie and was near
Jed and those guys and their families. And then when
the rain delay hit, I sent them upstairs to the
suite with like the business I guess, so they could
stay dry because we're getting rained on. And I went
down and I was called down to a meeting with
the with the Indians GM Chris Anthonti and the commissioner
because say what, you guys might not know this the
cool story called down for a meeting to talk about
the rain delay. So well, the first cool thing is
as I'm cutting through our clubhouse to get to the
meeting because it's in like the umpire's room, so the
quickest way down is cutting through our clubhouse. And I
look around our clubhouse. I'm like, where the fuck is everybody.
I'm like, normally everyone's at their locker, you know, getting
dry clothes on whatever in raindolay, looking at their phones.
I'm like, where is everyone? I remember like asking where's everyone.
They're like they're in the weight room. And I looked
and you could just see like the blue jerseys all
all like gathering together and I obviously I didn't go in,
but I'd be like peeked in, and I'm just like, oh,
this is fucking awesome, Like our guys are fucking rallying.
You guys can tell the story of what happened. I've
heard it from each of you, guys, but so proud that,
like all the stuff about winning and connectedness that we
talked about, I felt like we'd already won. Like when
I saw you guys at your instinct after blowing that
lead and having rain delay in the world, so instead
of sitting at your lockers or like moping or getting
involved in your own shit on your own phones, you
had the instinct to come together. It was like felt like, man,
we already won this game, or we're already winners. Sure anyway,
but then I go to the the little little room
with Commissioner Manfred and Chris Antonetti and like the meteorologist
and all the officials, and they were looking at the radar.
We're like, we don't think it's going to be too long,
remember Antonetti, Chris, Chris and I looked at each other
and were just like like, we man, this is unbelievable.
I'm exhaust Can you believe.
We're here in the rain in LA and someone has
to lose, someone has to win. But then the commissioner
I got a call and he takes it and I'm
kind of listening in. I'm like, that can't be what
I think it was. And he hangs up. He's like,
you won't believe who that was. Who. He's like, that's
that's the head of Fox. He's like, they said, they're
asking about the rain, and they said, if we can
suspend this game right now and pick it up tomorrow
night in primetime, it's gonna be worth like twenty five
million more viewers or oh my no, yeah, And he
was like, as tempting as that is, we can't fucking
do He can't do that. It's like, this is world series.
That was great.
In my mind, I'm thinking like, oh, we'll have Chappy
rested instead of like you know, throw making up curve
balls and change ups. And he had just gotten through
the night then, like we got that.
History would have changed.
Yeah.
If that so that Chap he's got to sit on
the Homer.
Yeah, everyone, it would have been bad for us.
But the fact that he got us through the ninth
was crazy.
But Manfred obviously did a great job that no that
could have been there. We're back on the field, and
then went up at joined Marie and Jack up in
the suite and watched the You know, it just felt
like schwarbar had the bat in his hands, like he's
going to get on just as as part of the
organization to watch like Schwarburt, who had just come back
from that knee injury because of what's in here, come
back early, drive that single to right field. Then Albert
Pinch runs for him, like KB almost sits the ball
out another first round Scharber, first round pick, KB, first
round pick, Albert first round pick, Pinch runs has bluea
well baseball i Q to tag up and get the
second base on play that you know no one else
ends up there at second base and then yeah yeah,
and then walk Risen and so tight of course, yeah,
we haven't talked enough about you on this podcast.
Zerbst free agents signing and then another trade, Maggie getting
another hit.
That's right, but just how everyone together to watch that
come together and obviously you know you're still you're still
thinking about we need to get three more outs. It's
like we're who the hell is going to pitch we're
running out, so then then we go down. I'm like,
I don't want to be up in a corporate suite
when the World Series decides, so grab Marie and Jack
go down. There are two seats left from the front
row wrapping on play, next to Eddie and and Chris
Kelly else and a bunch of other guys. So we
sat jack'stat on my lap and and Mason right next
to me and Watchington. I remember Jack was telling me,
He's like, yeah, you just kept saying throw strikes, throw strikes.
When CJ walked that guy, you got so pissed. But
that was a very what was he very stress?
Was he saying too before Raja hit the home run? Yeah,
and then after Roger I.
Told you guys, so Jack, he's eight years old at
the time, but he's like an incredible math savant. He
was like a math genius at the time. And so
as we build up the lead, we got like a
three run leader in the game, He's like tapping. He's
a dad. Dad. It's like the fifth Angers. We're like, Dad,
we have like, uh, you know, seventy eight percent to
winning the World Series. And I'm like Jack, that's great,
but you know, let's one out at a time, like,
you know, baseball can't get ahead of yourself. And then yeah,
he's like, Dad, we were up to an eighty two
percent chance to win. And then after Davis hit the homer,
I'm like so pissed and I'm looking at I'm like,
can you believe Ross? He just called him nine straight
fast ball us like, yeah, because he can't catch his slider.
Yeah, I know that's about right.
And then uh, Jack, I feel another tap of my
the crowd is the stadium shaking as you guys know,
I feel tap on the leg and Jacks like we're
down to like for in the world says like, I know,
but you.
Never need to never grow up.
But after, you know, CJ did a good job getting
those two outs, and then and then can't you know
money came in flipped those two curved balls, and then
when the ball went into your glove, just look out
and see you guys celebrating. And then the chance to
like hug my wife and my eight year old son,
and like, you know, knowing everything that had gone into
it and knowing like the freedom that comes and just
the joy and the relief would have meant to everyone.
And then just like the freedom of knowing that we
were world champions. People say like, oh, you know how happy? Yes, happy,
But there's also just the freedom that comes with like
delivering on something that you know you're going to be
bound to forever, Like all of us would have been
replaying that game the rest of our lives, no doubt
if it hadn't turned out that way.
So it was like the.
Freedom of win ahead and and then getting to see
you guys celebrate that locker room celebration. Could we could
have a little bigger locker room. It was pretty tight.
It was to be in the mix with you guys
and see what it meant to you all, and then
we get back to Chicago and see what it meant
to everybody.
Just incredible.
The prey was epic, UH winning and then we come
back and you ball off the fall off the bus.
That was San Francisco. Oh that's a rumor. I think
that was jed.
You can't tell an aerial view.
Okay that that footage has been deleted from the UH
from THEE, but for a while there was a clip
on there because like the helicopter, it was after the
San Francisco game. We arrived back at regularly the news helicopters,
like following the bus and you see someone get off
the bus and fall down, like people thought it was me,
but I'm gonna say, I think it must.
Have been Jed.
You go to go to well, obviously, like we're so
thankful for this, and like I just want you to
leave it with, like what are you most proud of
when you look.
Back on on that group and what you the legacy
you left in Chicago and changing the or the history there,
and obviously we're really thankful for all that, but like you,
what are you looking back on like the proudest.
Yeah, I think that that we all gave ourselves to
something that was hard and that required sacrifice and put
the team and the organization and the mission first and
did it in like a genuine way where we ended
up giving so much of ourselves and the sacrifice, but
getting so much more, like with the relationship, that connection,
and then ultimately to see that rewarded with the championship
that you can then share with literally tens of millions
of people, Like to just know you played a small
part in that, because like that's why I was there
I gave myself to it. But when you do, you know,
you do them by yourself. There's me anything seeing so
many people opt in and make it the most important
thing in their lives, be part of something bigger than themselves,
knowing it wouldn't happen, but for like everyone's contribution and
be like, hey, we did this together and it was
special and it was lasting, and it was like real.
The relationships, what we built, the culture, it was all
fucking real. Like that's the most meaningful thing to be
part of. I think back about it four and the
stuff that went into that. I think about the relationships.
I think about the people's sacrifice. Same thing with sixteen,
Like how lucky I am? You know, I learned a
ton of lessons, the most I've learned. I talked about
learning from KT and learning from all the smart people
in the front office, Like I learned so much from
you guys. When I started out as a GM twenty eight,
the players were older than me, like right, and they
were my peers and my elders, and learned a ton
from them. Then by the time I got to Chicago,
a little bit older than you guys, but it was
still amazed by how you guys handled the pressure of
the adversity, how you're able to perform in the face
of those expectations, what you did for each other. So
to just feel part of that collective accomplishment is incredible,
and I'm glad we're getting the chances to talk about
it and celebrate it ten years later.
Well, we thank you for sitting down. I mean, you're
talking about again. I said this at the front. One
of the best leaders amongst men of all time, not
back an organization, he led. There's so many lives you've changed.
There's so many gms now that came from.
You're proud of those guys, yeah.
Right, and helping them build and helping them continue the
career managers that came out of that, and not only
being on the top though, but it's you know my
mom and dad, you know my brother, you know Emily,
you need to know my son eventually, Ross Like, it's
just not only me, but it's the entire organization and
the leadership that you set trickled all the way down
to the last very to the very last person.
Whoever that very last person is on the total point.
I gave this graduation speech at Yale in twenty seventeen
after we won, and like one of the things I
talked about is how you can go through life like
with your head down, just kind of focusing on your
own problems, your own career, your own things that you
need to figure out and solve, and it's like really
isolating and you can get caught up in your own
ship sometimes. And maybe that's a little bit how it
was like early early in my career, like get the job,
times of pressure, Oh shit, Like what are the numbers saying,
like figure out? Or you can like as you mature,
you and you and you learn from people around you,
Like you can do your job and live your life
with your head up. And that means like connecting with
people in a genuine way that impacts lives, like building
relationships that last last a long time, and like being
open to everyone contributing and the collective and what being
part of a real team means. And like that's such
a better way to do your job, to live your
life and ultimately like it helps you win, so like
it's it's it. Being in baseball has been such a
blessing because that's what taught me ultimately to kind of
like live my life and do my job with my
head up, and you know ship where get to go
play golf and talk about talk about World Series teams
ten years later with you guys, and we're going to
be doing at the rest of our lives.
So the go, Thank you, Thank you, guys. That's a
wrap to the level you Epstein.
Wrong. That one's great. That was great. That's the best
one so far.