Therapeutic Knitting with Betsan Corkhill

Mia Hobbs:
00:00:05
Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:08
is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:10
passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:13
health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:16
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:19
well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to Betsan
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:24
Corkhill. Betson is a former physiotherapist and lifestyle
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:27
coach. She's an expert in therapeutic knitting, and also
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:30
the author of Knit for Health and Wellness. You can find links
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:35
to the Stitch links Website and any of the yarns and patterns we
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:38
discuss in the show notes.
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:46
Hi Betsan welcome to the podcast.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:00:48
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:51
It's a pleasure. I'm really pleased to be able to
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:53
talk to the kind of one of the founders of therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:
00:00:57
knitting. I would love to start with asking where your story
Mia Hobbs:
00:01:02
with knitting began.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:03
Well, my mother told me to knit when I was
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:06
seven. I can remember being intensely frustrated at the time
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:10
because I immediately wanted a jumper. So I didn't then knit
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:18
for quite some time. And it actually until I was expecting
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:21
my first child, and then I knitted quite a few things, and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:23
I knitted the christening shawl. And then I had another big gap.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:27
And I went back to it when I started this project, the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:30
research into the meditative creative and social benefits of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:34
knitting because I because I'm really firm believer in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:37
practising what I preach, and now I do it more or less every
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:40
day.
Mia Hobbs:
00:01:40
Yeah. And did the project come about first rather
Mia Hobbs:
00:01:44
than you weren't knitting at the time? You started because of the
Mia Hobbs:
00:01:47
project?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:47
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's quite a long,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:51
it's, it's, I think it's quite an interesting story, how I got
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:54
into it, actually, because I was a I was working as a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:01:57
physiotherapist, a community physiotherapist, and I was asked
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:03
by GPs to go into people's homes for people who weren't able to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:08
get to the physiotherapy department for some reason. So
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:11
it could be a whole range of reasons across a whole range of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:13
age groups. And I soon realised that, you know, call her Mrs.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:18
Smith, Mrs. Smith wasn't getting out of her chair, because she
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:21
had no reason to get out of her chair, she had absolutely
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:24
nothing in the day, no purpose, nothing she was successful at.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:29
And I wasn't at that you know, the system didn't allow me to,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:34
to, to give the time and the treatment that that person
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:39
needed. And I was allowed to go in three times maybe to change
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:43
somebody's whole lifestyle. So I got really frustrated and I, I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:47
left and I became a freelance production editor for a range
Betsan Corkhill:
00:02:52
magazines, and ended up ended up on a range of craft and across
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:01
the whole, the whole craft portfolio. And I did a three,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:07
six month stint on the craft portfolio, one of my jobs was to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:12
sort the letters pages. And that entailed reading all the letters
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:18
that came into the office every day, and they literally got
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:21
sacks full of letters every day. And I realised that most of them
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:26
are talking about the therapeutic benefit of their
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:28
craft, but particularly knitting. And I mentioned it to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:33
the editor of one of the knitting magazines? And she
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:36
said, Oh, yes, I we know that something really important here.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:39
We really don't know what it what it is. We've got a filing
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:42
cabinet full of letters there. Would you like to go read them?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:45
And they were literally 1000s of letters because they just run a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:47
competition about what is it you find, you know, beneficial about
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:51
knitting. And it was the first time that somebody with a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:03:56
medical background had read these letters. And it was really
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:00
striking. They were really profound life stories. You know,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:05
I remember I remember very vividly the first letter I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:08
picked up was from a 14 year old girl who had written I don't
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:13
have to take my pain medication when I knit, I am often in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:15
hospital and I don't so I don't have to take that medication
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:18
when I knit. It helps me and the second was from a lady who tried
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:25
to commit suicide and her husband had taken her in a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:28
simple knitting project into hospital out of desperation,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:31
really to try and get her interested in something. And she
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:34
said now, now I look forward to my next project. And I look
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:38
forward to tomorrow. And it changed her life. So there were
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:42
those kinds of profound stories and I thought wow there's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:45
something really important here
Mia Hobbs:
00:04:47
that gave me goosebumps to hear that. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:04:49
And to think they were sitting in a filing cabinet until you
Mia Hobbs:
00:04:51
came along.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:52
yes. And so my first thought was, I wonder if
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:54
this wonder if this could help Mrs. Smith who sits in her
Betsan Corkhill:
00:04:58
armchair said to, you know, in our armchair to enable her to be
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:02
successful at something too. So using it as a springboard to, to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:06
get interested in the world in the world, you know, open up the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:10
world and get interested in doing other things. And then it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:14
then as more I started to research it, because I wanted to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:18
know, I think the striking things is there were large
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:22
numbers of people saying very, very similar things, as I'm sure
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:26
you've discovered. And I wanted to know, why that was happening,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:30
what was happening, and if there was any science behind it,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:34
because you know, there had to be something happening within
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:38
them biologically and chemically, for them to feel
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:41
better. And so I wanted to know, what, what what was happening.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:45
So that's how it started. And the more I researched more, I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:49
realised how you know how important it was. So then I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:52
started thinking about developing the idea of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:55
therapeutic knitting which, and for me, I would, I would
Betsan Corkhill:
00:05:59
describe therapeutic knitting as a combination of knitting and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:03
knowledge. So enhancing that, you know, knitting has its
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:06
benefits, but you can learn how to enhance those benefits. And
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:10
you can have knowledge about how to do that. But also, you know,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:15
people who are fit and well can do that. But also, if you've got
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:19
a medical condition, you can learn about that condition and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:23
learn how to use knitting to manage the symptoms, further
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:26
enhance those benefits. So that's where that's where it all
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:30
started. So I approached the pain clinic here in Bath, and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:34
asked if they'd be interested in setting up a group. I didn't
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:38
hear back from them for about six months. So I thought, well,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:42
you know, that's it. And then six months later, I said, well,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:44
Yeah. Still in there somewhere.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:46
they said, Yeah, we'd be quite interested. And that was back in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:50
2006. So I started up, I started a therapeutic knitting group in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:54
a pain clinic. And that really got me interested in the subject
Betsan Corkhill:
00:06:58
of pain. So since then, I've specialised in helping working
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:02
with people with long term pain. And I thought well, ooh help i'm
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:06
, you know how I'm gonna have to run the knitting group. In two
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:10
weeks time, I better get back to knitting. Learning how to knit
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:14
again. Of course, once you've learned to you never forget it.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:20
Yes. So then I got back to doing it myself. I do. I do really
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:27
believe in practising what I preach. I don't think you can
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:29
advise people to do things if you're not doing it yourself.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:32
Really?
Mia Hobbs:
00:07:34
Yeah. So is that do you keep doing it in your
Mia Hobbs:
00:07:36
personal life for yourself?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:38
Yes, yes. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:07:40
And do you feel like you've noticed those therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:
00:07:43
benefits even on any level for you for your life? Are there
Mia Hobbs:
00:07:46
times when you feel like you turn to the knitting more?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:50
Oh, yes, absolutely. It's, it's, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:54
know, I use it as a as a way of managing stress on more or less
Betsan Corkhill:
00:07:59
daily basis and bringing that especially recently, I think
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:02
people have needed to keep those those you know, sort of stress
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:06
systems. rebalance them because it's been stressful. In the last
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:12
20 months for everybody,
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:13
yeah, during COVID
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:14
Yeah, so I think it's become more important
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:17
for people to incorporate those things into into their daily
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:21
lives.
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:22
Yeah, I have to say I also felt really lucky to have a
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:26
hobby, something I love doing that I could still do in COVID
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:30
that it wasn't something you know, my main hobby was
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:34
something that wasn't allowed because of restrictions. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:38
Yeah. Are there particular things you enjoy knitting at the
Mia Hobbs:
00:08:40
moment?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:42
Well, I have a I have different projects going
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:46
and I've always advised people to have a range of different
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:49
projects on the go according to the mood they're in on the day
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:52
but but also maybe according to mood they would like to move
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:55
themselves into because you go into a different mind state with
Betsan Corkhill:
00:08:58
with whatever project you're on. So I have I will have an easy
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:02
one and or a more or a more challenging one on the go and my
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:11
focus has changed actually you know from from when I was a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:14
child at seven to becoming really frustrated not being able
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:17
to get an end product now it's more it's changed in that I can
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:22
I can knit something that will take a year to finish and and be
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:26
quite happy with that and just do it for the process. Yeah, not
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:31
for not for that end product. The end product when it comes is
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:34
extra specially nice.  I spent the whole of the first lockdown
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:40
knitting a I knitted we had our first grandchild arrived in the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:46
first lock bit very beginning of the First lockdown
Mia Hobbs:
00:09:49
congratulations
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:51
we weren't allowed to see him. Oh, because
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:54
they live quite a quite they live three hour drive away. So I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:09:58
decided right I'll knit a cot blanket as a as a hug from us
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:02
because we couldn't give him a physical hug. And our daughter
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:07
who's living with us at the time said, Oh, I love that, would you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:10
make me one only I want to double bed size. So I spent the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:15
whole of the first lockdown knitting this double bed. Very
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:20
easy sort of garter stitch, but with a slightly zigzag, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:23
know, sort of pattern in it. And it was wonderful. That's what
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:27
kept me sane, I think in those first really anxious months,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:31
when everything was still very unknown. And, yeah, so that was
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:37
her Christmas, one of her Christmas presents last year.
Mia Hobbs:
00:10:41
I guess she's got that to look back on. And you
Mia Hobbs:
00:10:44
can always associate that blanket, I guess with, you know,
Mia Hobbs:
00:10:47
getting through that really difficult period of time. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:10:51
Does it matter to you what the stitch pattern is? Or like more
Mia Hobbs:
00:10:54
in the process? Does that make a difference or not particularly
Betsan Corkhill:
00:10:58
Not really, it needs to be one that I can, if I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:02
want something easy and rhythmic like that, it needs to be
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:05
something that I can, my brain can remember without really
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:09
referring to a pattern all the time. So yeah, but I but I, I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:15
have, you know, sort of a done a lace shawl. Well not done. I'm
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:19
doing a lace shawl and another and another large sort of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:26
shawls, scarf stroke shawl pattern. It's got a few
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:31
different complicated lines in it. You know, in between, I'm
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:36
rhythmically away, and then suddenly I come on this line
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:38
write I have to pay attention now. So that's a nice one.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:42
Because it takes it takes me about an hour to do a row
Mia Hobbs:
00:11:45
Oh, wow. It's big.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:47
It's sock yarn, Well, it's in sock yarn. Yes,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:50
it's, it depends. I pick up on sometimes I'll just do a dish
Betsan Corkhill:
00:11:54
cloth. Yeah. So you'll do it or a face cloth?
Mia Hobbs:
00:11:57
So pretty much every day, you'll do some knitting.
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:00
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. And I definitely also
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:03
relate to the idea of having projects for different, I don't
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:07
know, moments in my life. So I need something I find if I'm
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:10
doing a zoom training or something, I need to knit
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:13
something rhythmical. And easy, because it helps me focus on
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:18
sitting still and listening. Yeah, I'm learning something.
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:21
Whereas I also like to have something more complicated. They
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:24
have to really focus on so that it's not possible to think about
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:27
stressful things for the rest of my life at the same time as
Mia Hobbs:
00:12:30
doing the knitting.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:31
Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, obviously,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:35
the level is different for everybody. But if you have an
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:37
easy project going on, you can listen to and take in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:41
information and retain information. I think lots of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:44
knitters say they retain the information better more
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:47
effectively than anything. I wouldn't be able to do that with
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:51
a complex pattern. No, it would have to be an easy one. Yeah. So
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:55
my my brain, my brain is doing something automatically in the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:12:58
background, but my attention is on the on the talk.
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:03
Yeah, the same. And I find it's easy to do, you know,
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:05
stocking stitch or garter stitch for, you know, you can get
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:09
through the boring inches on on a sweater or something. While
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:12
you're listening. Definitely find it helps me focus. And I
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:16
would love to hear more about Stitchlinks and the kind of
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:20
community you've created. And I know your invitation on the
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:24
stitchlinks Website for people to send you stories about their
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:27
relationship with knitting. I'm assuming that was inspired by
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:30
this filing cabinet that you this treasure trove. You came
Mia Hobbs:
00:13:33
across all those letters?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:35
Yes, yeah. And you know that I continue to get
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:39
stories and the stories are mind blowing. And they're in, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:44
know, in what I mean, I had one yesterday from somebody who
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:47
said, my mother, last year, my mother and father were both in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:51
intensive care with COVID. Fortunately, they both survived.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:55
But her mother returned home from hospital having to sleep on
Betsan Corkhill:
00:13:59
the sofa because she wasn't able to walk upstairs. She's too
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:03
breathless to walk upstairs. Obviously, quite low, unable to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:08
use her left hand. And her daughter took her some yarn and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:14
some needles and asked her to knit a blanket for her. And the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:19
mother has now just found her purpose in life, and she's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:25
regained the use of a left hand. Wow. So yeah, she's she and she
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:29
puts it all down to knitting.
Mia Hobbs:
00:14:33
So I guess my area of work is mainly in the mental
Mia Hobbs:
00:14:35
health and psychological benefits of knitting, but it
Mia Hobbs:
00:14:37
sounds like you're really noticing also physical changes,
Mia Hobbs:
00:14:41
like the experience of pain. And yes, I guess rehabilitation
Mia Hobbs:
00:14:46
physically.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:47
Yeah, yes. And it's, I mean, as you know, it's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:51
all intricately intertwined, isn't it? Yes. You know, if you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:56
if you feel better mentally, you're more likely to go out and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:14:59
do something physically, aren't you and it's if you feel better
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:03
physically, you feel better mentally. It's all in. It's all
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:05
intertwined. So, yeah, you see the benefits across the, across
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:11
the board. And I think doing something like creative like
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:15
knitting in, in lockdown or in a situation of greater uncertainty
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:21
and, you know, our fear systems were, were were used werent't
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:25
they to, to, to give information out about COVID. And because you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:31
couldn't get that information across by appealing to people's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:34
common sense, the only way they could get people to adhere to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:38
lockdowns was to terrify the life out of everybody, and work.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:42
And you know, and all those advertising, slogans were were
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:46
based on our fear systems and making us afraid to go out and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:50
touch things and be close to people. And you can't just
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:55
switch those on and you know, haven't switched on for two
Betsan Corkhill:
00:15:59
years, or 18 months, two years and expect them then to switch
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:02
off again, you know, people are still still last year there. And
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:06
I think having something creative, like knitting in that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:09
time, has been almost the opposite to that, to that level
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:12
of fear. It's, it creates a sense of safety. It's colourful,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:18
it's constructive. It's sort of the All in all the things that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:21
are opposite to, to what we to what our minds werete nding to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:26
dwell on all the time.
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:28
Yeah. It would be really helpful if you've got a
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:32
kind of summary of the all of the work you've done and the
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:36
things that you've noticed being therapeutic about knitting, have
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:40
you got a kind of a is there a way of synthesising? I think
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:43
you've got it right? You've got a knitting equation on the
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:46
Stitchlinks Website. Yeah, it'd be helpful to hear a little bit
Mia Hobbs:
00:16:49
about that.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:51
So the knitting equation, I divided it up into
Betsan Corkhill:
00:16:56
three columns. So the first column are the movements, and I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:00
think the movements are really important. And the second column
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:05
is having an enriched environment. And then the third
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:09
column is the benefits of the social engagement and in a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:12
group. So you can choose the the benefits of knitting are diff
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:17
alone are different from knitting in a group. But the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:22
movements, the movements and is portability. I think what sets
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:27
knitting apart from other creative activities, yeah. So
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:33
the movements are two-handed, bilateral, they cross the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:37
midline of the body, they're rhythmic, and they're repetitive
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:41
and they become automatic, and all those have a certain number
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:45
of benefits. But I think the one that's of most benefit is rhythm
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:50
of movements. Most of the stories will talk about the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:17:57
rhythm of movements and calming the mind down and there is some
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:02
research now that your brain likes rhythmic movement or
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:06
rhythmic activities, because it makes the brain feel safe. You
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:10
know, you'll you'll know that the the brain is always
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:13
predicting what's around the corner, so it doesn't like
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:16
surprises. It doesn't like uncertainty last that's why a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:19
lot of people have struggled over the last 20 months your
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:21
brain hates uncertainty and although uncertainty has always
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:24
been there since the moment you were conceived. You know, you we
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:28
used to live life with it in the background really was but over
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:31
the last 20 months has been thrust to the forefront of our
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:34
minds every single day. And rhythm is predictable. So it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:41
makes the brain feel safe. So anything that's rhythmic will,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:46
will help you know I've had people send stories about they
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:48
find drumming, for example, has a very similar effect. Some
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:53
people say baking bread, kneading bread has the same
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:56
effect playing a musical instrument. When you think about
Betsan Corkhill:
00:18:59
those things, like they're great. And I would encourage
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:00
people to do a variety of things. But you can't take it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:04
with it with you on a bus, you can't do it on public transport.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:08
And that's the huge benefit of knitting is that you have a tool
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:13
really effective tool for calming you down almost
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:17
instantaneously that you can carry with you and we we've had
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:22
quite a lot of success curing panic attacks for example. Lots
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:26
of people can't go on public transport without it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:29
particularly now. And they you know, you can use it in the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:34
middle of the night. It doesn't disturb anybody else. So that's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:41
really what raises it up. We've we've really struggled apart
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:44
from crochet. And then the only way the crochet differs is that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:50
some styles of crochet are very one-handed. And we tend to I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:19:57
would encourage people to learn more two-handed techniques Have
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:00
crochet because I think two-handed Nature is, is
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:04
important.
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:05
Yeah, I wondered if you could talk a little bit more
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:06
about that, because you and I had a conversation before we
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:09
started recording about a study that's in progress. It's using
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:12
crochet and that it is different to knitting. And it's something
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:16
somebody else has mentioned in one of my interviews about
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:19
crocheting, but not quite finding the same therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:23
kind of feeling from crochet. And I'm interested in and I
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:27
think that two-handed and the bilateral movements is something
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:29
I think a lot of people won't know about. So I wondered if you
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:32
could say a little bit more about the theories about why
Mia Hobbs:
00:20:35
that's helpful.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:37
Yeah, I think, I mean, there's no research to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:39
back this up specifically on knitting. But there is in other
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:43
areas, if you're, if you're using, you know, everybody, most
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:46
people know if using your left hand is controlled by the right
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:49
side of your brain, and vice versa. When you bring your hands
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:53
together to form a complex pattern of movements, your brain
Betsan Corkhill:
00:20:58
has to work really quite hard to coordinate those hands, it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:01
occupies a lot of capacity in that moment. If you're crossing
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:05
the midline, then you're going over into that sort of brain
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:10
space with your hands. And that's, that actually
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:13
complicates things even even further. So that you know, there
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:19
are quite a few people that say that, yes, maybe they find
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:23
sewing, set rhythmic. But a two-handed movement seems to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:30
induce a meditative state more readily. Because you're taking
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:35
up more capacity more of the brain is involved in that core
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:39
inner coordination. So you know, there's some with with crochet,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:47
if you;re holding the crochet hook with one hand and just
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:50
holding the yarn with the other hand and just picking up the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:52
yarn, you're very much more or less you just using one hand.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:21:59
There are techniques where you can feed the yarn with your with
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:05
the yarn holding hands so that you are getting this more
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:08
coordinated pattern of movements. That's just a theory
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:12
of mine. But I think it's you know, if you get if you're
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:14
getting down to the real details, you have to look at
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:16
things like that.
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:18
I was thinking about EMDR. Yeah, so eye movement,
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:23
desensitisation reprocessing, which is something used in
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:25
trauma therapy by psychologists, it's not something I'm
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:28
specifically trained in, but lots of my colleagues are, and
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:31
that uses eye movements and sometimes tapping and crosses
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:37
the midline of the body. And the idea is that those repetitive
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:40
movements help with re processing a traumatic memory.
Mia Hobbs:
00:22:44
So I think its a really interesting link
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:45
I think there is there is discussion going on
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:49
with whether the mechanisms behind what's going on with
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:51
knitting, very similar to EMDR. And I've certainly worked with
Betsan Corkhill:
00:22:57
people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:01
their incidence of flashbacks and the severity of the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:05
flashbacks that has improved significantly with knitting. In
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:09
fact, knitting was a the treatment of choice for soldiers
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:13
after World War One for shellshock. Which, which we now
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:18
know as post traumatic stress they used knitting. So yeah, the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:24
there is that rhythmic, repetitive movement  that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:27
crosses the midline and to teachers of young children will
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:30
say they do something called Brain gym, which is a series of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:34
movements that cross the midline of the body to get the brain,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:38
awake in the mornings. And again, there's a there's a, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:44
know, focus on crossing that midline. The other thing I would
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:48
say about crochet is that if you holding a hook and you have a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:52
sort of like a pincer grip on the hook, and you're, you're
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:55
turning your hand all the time that people that are susceptible
Betsan Corkhill:
00:23:59
to hand and wrist pain, get more real hand and wrist pain, so
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:03
need to pace need to pace crochet more than they pace.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:08
Knitting. Yeah, so that's the other. That's the other issue if
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:10
you if you have a tendency towards hand and wrist pain to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:13
be a little bit more careful there. But I would encourage
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:17
people to do both this. You know, the great as you know that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:22
variety is good for the brain, so you don't want well,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:25
therapeutic knitting is not about encouraging people to sit
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:28
and knit all day. It's about using it as a tool to improve
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:32
your well being. It's about not sitting for more than about 20
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:37
minutes. It's about getting up and moving around. That's all
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:39
part of that therapeutic side, getting a circulation going and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:44
using it as part of a whole sort of wellbeing toolbox. Really?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:24:49
Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:24:50
Have you had much? I don't know. I'm wondering about
Mia Hobbs:
00:24:53
what the reception was from academics when you're applying
Mia Hobbs:
00:24:56
for research funding or for people who were suggested to
Mia Hobbs:
00:25:00
come to a knitting group for pain management, like how have
Mia Hobbs:
00:25:04
you found that has been received by people who might not be
Mia Hobbs:
00:25:07
knitters.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:08
In the beginning. Scientists
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:12
researchers laughed and laughed. And I don't know if you know,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:17
but I had to call knitting something different in the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:19
beginning.
Mia Hobbs:
00:25:20
I think I read that in your book that you had to
Mia Hobbs:
00:25:22
rebrand it.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:23
Yeah. Had to call it a bilateral rhythmic
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:25
psychosocial intervention.
Mia Hobbs:
00:25:28
And that worked?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:30
it did it did it? Yeah, it's really weird.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:35
There is a oh ay would those who are saying there's almost a fear
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:40
of using the word knitting in some sort of ways or a fear of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:44
being seen as a knitter? It's, it's bizarre. This is it's all
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:50
it's a fear of the because people see it as something
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:53
that's been that's done by women. It's soft. It's, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:25:57
know, it's the opposite to yours to science really soft. It's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:00
fluffy, done by people think it's done by older women or your
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:06
granny in and there's a lot of that thinking that's going on,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:12
underneath what people think of knitting. Yeah. And soon as I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:18
started to argue, from the scientific perspective, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:20
know, I'd be in a conference and people will say, say to me a,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:23
what do you do, then I say, Well, if I do I use the K word
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:27
or not. And if I use the K word, people would in a and say, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:37
know, we're using knitting to treat chronic pain. They would
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:42
laugh, and you could see their gaze going elsewhere and say,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:46
How am I going to get away from this man woman? I was treated a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:50
bit like a knitting evangelist who wanted to spread the word
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:53
knitting, whereas ironically, at that time, I wasn't, I wouldn't
Betsan Corkhill:
00:26:58
have called myself a knitter. Okay. I had not got back into
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:01
it, then. Yeah. But if I said, we're using a bilateral rhythmic
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:07
psychosocial intervention, they would say, well, that's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:11
interesting. And what are you doing? How are you doing that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:13
then? And that would open that would open the door where we're
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:16
using knitting, as you know, so it wasn't? Yeah, it wasn't seen
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:20
as knitting then.
Mia Hobbs:
00:27:22
That's so interesting. It took you a while
Mia Hobbs:
00:27:24
to overcome that stigma?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:26
Yes. Yeah. And we I know, we've had funding
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:29
proposals turned down without them being read, because the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:33
word knitting has been in the title.
Mia Hobbs:
00:27:37
So has it changed at all? Since you still, you said
Mia Hobbs:
00:27:40
started in 2005?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:42
Yeah, it has changed. I'm asked to speak
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:46
quite regularly now to groups of doctors.  Before COVID, we had a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:51
number of GP clinics and hospitals who were thinking of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:56
starting up therapeutic knitting groups obviously, can't couldn't
Betsan Corkhill:
00:27:59
do that in person now. But it's, it's people don't laugh anymore.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:28:08
And also, I have a lot more confidence in it as well, which
Betsan Corkhill:
00:28:13
makes difference. Because it was a bit it was, it was quite
Betsan Corkhill:
00:28:17
challenging to me personally, you know, if you have somebody
Betsan Corkhill:
00:28:20
just laugh at you Sure. When you think when you're thinking,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:28:25
right, okay.
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:27
Yeah, I think it took me a while to feel confident
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:30
enough to do that. I think, you know, I left my NHS job in 2017,
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:34
and went into private practice. And as I was leaving my NHS
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:38
team, I was known as the knitter there. And I'd organised a few,
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:42
you know, collaborative projects where we knitted squares, and I
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:45
put them together to make blankets for people's babies.
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:48
And I said, you know, I'd really like to run therapeutic knitting
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:52
groups. And it was slightly kind of taken as a bit of a joke. And
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:56
I think it's taken me until this year, really to think there
Mia Hobbs:
00:28:59
actually, there is enough evidence behind the idea of
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:02
running therapeutic knitting groups and starting to use it
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:05
more in my work without feeling worried about how people will
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:09
respond. And I think I've also taken some of the principles of
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:12
therapeutic knitting and applied to a bit flexibly to people who
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:15
were say, would say no to knitting, but they're using some
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:19
similar skills to create circut boards or doing something
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:22
slightly different, but getting some of the same benefits in
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:26
whatever way feels accessible for them. Yeah,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:29:28
absolutely. I mean, I was known by one GP
Betsan Corkhill:
00:29:31
practice as that mad knitting woman. And, and even now I can
Betsan Corkhill:
00:29:37
go to a conference and introduced to somebody and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:29:42
they'll say, Oh, so you're that knitting woman you are not as,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:29:46
as anything else apart from that knitting woman, but now it's not
Betsan Corkhill:
00:29:51
done so in such a derogatory way.
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:56
Maybe people are starting to see a bit more of
Mia Hobbs:
00:29:58
the benefits. I certainly feel it, for example, conferences
Mia Hobbs:
00:30:02
just before COVID, there was more of an idea about, it's okay
Mia Hobbs:
00:30:05
to doodle, or it's okay to do something if it helps you to
Mia Hobbs:
00:30:08
focus on sitting still for six hours and listening to a
Mia Hobbs:
00:30:11
training course, which actually, we as humans are not really
Mia Hobbs:
00:30:14
designed to do.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:15
Yeah. And I think there's a lot, I think,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:18
actually COVID has helped bizarrely in some way, in that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:23
people are a lot more accepting of what we would call mind body
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:30
therapies as well. And there's now a lot of recognition in you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:38
know, needing a bottom up as well as a top down approach. And
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:45
the benefits of that, and, you know, knitting is, is it, you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:49
know, changes the input into the brain but it, also induces that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:52
level of calm. So you get that top down, calm and the bottom
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:55
up, rhythm coming in. And, and there's more recognition
Betsan Corkhill:
00:30:59
scientifically now of, of of that.
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:03
And I wonder whether actually COVID has forced us all
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:07
to think about what do I need in order to be happy and healthy?
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:11
Like, what do I get from my mind and my body? Yeah, to be able to
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:16
function? Well, as a human? Yes. A lot of things were thrown up
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:20
in the air.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:21
Yeah. It's also alerted people to your Well,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:24
yes, I am connected to the natural world as well. And it's
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:27
all you know, it's all tied in. It's not. You can't solve
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:31
everything with with a pill. It's all interrelated. It's all
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:34
intertwined.
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:36
And one of the questions I always ask in the
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:39
podcast is whether someone can talk about a significant
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:43
knitting project for them. So that could be one of your
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:46
projects, it could be one that's come up in as part of your work.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:50
Actually. The the blanket that's behind me
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:52
there.
Mia Hobbs:
00:31:53
Yeah, that's beautiful. I was noticing that.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:56
It's when I did. It's my comfort blanket for
Betsan Corkhill:
00:31:58
when my mother died.
Mia Hobbs:
00:32:00
Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:02
That was it. It was while it was eight years ago
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:04
now. But it's pretty, it was pretty traumatic at the time.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:09
And as it happened, my one of my best friends husband, died in
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:15
the same week in traumatic in a traumatic way. And we both
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:20
belong to the same knitting group. So we both started, we
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:25
sat with each other. And I think in those times, you, you don't
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:31
want to talk you you know, people, when people come around,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:33
they feel the need to talk when you don't want to talk. So we
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:36
just sat with each other in silence and knitted those
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:39
blankets,
Mia Hobbs:
00:32:40
did you knit the same blanket?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:42
She knitted a slightly different pattern. But
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:43
yeah, she was just going in straight lines. And that's all
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:47
we needed. And mine was more or less straight lines. But members
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:53
from the knitting group would knock on the door, bring some
Betsan Corkhill:
00:32:56
cake and sit, just sit down and knit with us and not say
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:00
anything. And we would, you know, and and they would come
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:02
and go and supported us. So I think that was it actually
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:05
turned into quite a special time. And you know, we both have
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:10
that we both have those blankets now. Yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:33:14
Yeah. Does it feel? Does it feel comforting? Now?
Mia Hobbs:
00:33:17
Yes. to have the blanket to remember time?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:21
Yeah. But it also feels comforting to know
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:23
that that helped me deal with processing the trauma of it all.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:30
And it really did. Yeah. And I think without it, perhaps I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:35
would have had some post traumatic flashbacks, because I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:38
was sort of before, you know, sort of, immediately after the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:42
event, I was having those. And they certainly helped to calm
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:47
those down. So yes, I would say that's,
Mia Hobbs:
00:33:50
so that's a really special blanket.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:33:52
Yes, yeah.
Mia Hobbs:
00:33:54
And I do think that's a really powerful thing about
Mia Hobbs:
00:33:56
knitting that you can get through something really hard
Mia Hobbs:
00:34:00
and have something that is a very physical tangible reminder.
Mia Hobbs:
00:34:04
But also in a comforting way, often of overcoming or living
Mia Hobbs:
00:34:08
through surviving something that was difficult.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:12
Yeah, I think a blanket is a nice is a nice
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:15
project to do in that kind of thing because it because it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:19
keeps you warm as you're doing it sort of wraps around you as
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:23
you as you're making it. So I think it's a really nice
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:25
project, mindless project to do while you and I think, you know,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:32
one of the things that came out in our in my observations of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:36
doing this work is that people don't get an opportunity to just
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:41
be with other people without feeling the need to participate
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:46
or talk very much anymore. i It was my mother who, who actually
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:53
brought up when I was visiting in when I was staying with her.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:34:57
Towards the end of her life. She said, it's so nice to have you
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:02
here in the evening because I don't feel I have to talk, I can
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:05
just be with somebody else. So whereas I got visitors, she had
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:09
used to have visitors all the time, who pop in for, they pop
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:12
in for a chat and feel they had to make conversation. And she
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:17
said, I don't want to make conversation all the time, I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:19
just want to sit and be. So what actually, that's what knitting
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:24
allows, even in a knitting group, you go into a group and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:27
sit in the group, but you can sit and just be
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:30
Yeah. And I found that really helpful for people
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:34
who don't find social situations so easy that there's a shared
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:38
focus, there's a there's a topic of conversation if you want one.
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:41
But also there isn't any requirement to talk that you
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:45
could just be there with other people knitting, and not say
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:48
anything at all. And that wouldn't be considered unusual
Mia Hobbs:
00:35:51
or rude, or
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:52
I think I think, I think that's one of the
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:55
most important aspects of a group of particularly
Betsan Corkhill:
00:35:58
therapeutic group. Because it people come along, even if
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:04
they're not, even if they're feeling particularly vulnerable
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:06
on that day, because they know they don't have to participate.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:09
All the people who used to come to my pain knitting group,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:14
wouldn't have gone to a group if it wasn't for knitting, because
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:17
every other group would require you to introduce yourself to say
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:21
what you do, you know, and and require you to to take part. But
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:27
it's, you know, what I one of the things we identified was
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:31
that knitting is one of the few activities that you can have eye
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:35
contact or not. Yeah, and the or not, it was really important,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:39
because if you're not feeling like participating, you put it
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:42
perfectly acceptable to just sit and knit quietly. And just as
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:46
therapeutic to just sit and knit quietly as it is to join in with
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:50
the chat. Yeah. And that's what makes it so, so valuable as a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:36:55
therapeutic tool for a group.
Mia Hobbs:
00:36:59
Yeah, yeah, I've definitely spoken to people
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:01
don't always, you know, they've told me they don't find eye
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:03
contact easy, or sometimes it feels challenging. And knitting
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:08
is one of the things that has helped them to be in group
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:12
spaces, because it just isn't required in the same way it's
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:15
perfect. You know, lots of people are just looking down at
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:18
their knitting, or they look up, you know, fleetingly and that's
Mia Hobbs:
00:37:22
fine.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:22
Yes. And there's always a topic of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:24
conversation. Now you can say, Well, I would really like that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:28
colour, or, you know, I've done this what pattern you're doing.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:32
So you don't have to hunt for a topic of conversation, either. I
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:37
think I don't know whether you found but what I found when
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:41
running knitting groups is that conversation tends to get much
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:45
deeper and more intimate more quickly. And people find it easy
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:49
to talk when they knit. And I think that's something to do
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:53
with the automatic nature of movements. And I wasn't, at
Betsan Corkhill:
00:37:57
first I wasn't, I didn't really focus on the automatic nature.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:01
But now I think that this is really quite important, because
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:06
I think if you give the brain a background automatic task to do,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:10
then it's somehow and some of the stories say this, actually,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:14
that somehow frees up the rest of the mind, the brain to do
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:18
other things. It occupies the brain or at a low level,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:22
enabling them to talk to talk. And, you know, very, very, I've
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:26
lost count to the number of times the people have said to me
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:30
while we're sitting and knitting together. I haven't told anybody
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:35
this before. Yeah. And it's usually a pretty horrendous
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:38
story of some of some sort of trauma that they've kept in that
Betsan Corkhill:
00:38:43
they haven't felt able to talk about.
Mia Hobbs:
00:38:47
I wonder whether the eye contact helps with that as
Mia Hobbs:
00:38:49
well. Because certainly some of the things that I work a lot
Mia Hobbs:
00:38:51
with teenagers and their families, and I find that
Mia Hobbs:
00:38:55
parents of teenagers often say, Well, they don't really open up
Mia Hobbs:
00:38:58
to me, unless we happen to be in the car driving somewhere. And I
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:02
guess driving is another automatic kind of process, but
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:06
also, from the teenagers perspective, who's probably not
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:10
doing the driving, they're sitting not having to make eye
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:13
contact or have an intense we're sitting down to have a chat type
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:17
conversation. And maybe that's feels a bit safer to then start
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:22
to talk about something that might be quite difficult.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:39:25
Yes, I think I mean, I think it's that feeling
Betsan Corkhill:
00:39:27
of safety, that's the important you get a sort of it does. When
Betsan Corkhill:
00:39:32
you're knitting you do get a sense of safety of being safe,
Betsan Corkhill:
00:39:36
being safe in that moment. And again, I think that's down to
Betsan Corkhill:
00:39:40
the down to the movements that those rhythmic movements and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:39:46
yeah, you feel safer to divulge that information.
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:52
That's so interesting. I always end the
Mia Hobbs:
00:39:56
podcast with with asking what's the greatest gift that you
Mia Hobbs:
00:40:00
You've been given by knitting that's helped helped you in the
Mia Hobbs:
00:40:02
rest of your life. I don't know what you what your ideas are
Mia Hobbs:
00:40:05
about that Betsan.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:07
I think for me, it's set me on a completely
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:10
different path in life.
Mia Hobbs:
00:40:12
In terms of your career. Yeah, yeah.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:15
And it's got me thinking outside the box because
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:18
you know, I was a physio and as a physio we were trained in a
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:22
very biomechanical way. And but I'm completely sort of away from
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:26
that now. And it's It's opened my ideas up to a whole range of
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:31
issues. I'm I do a lot of work now in the world of, of long
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:37
term pain with people long term pain. I've become a Tai Chi
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:42
teacher as a result of knitting, which sounds strange, but there
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:47
are many similarities. It's sort of rhythmic, rhythmic movement.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:50
It's so yeah, so it's completely changed the course of my life.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:40:56
Really?
Mia Hobbs:
00:40:58
Wow. So that's a big thing. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:03
sure there'll be loads of people who want to hear more about your
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:05
work about the research and therapeutic knitting in general,
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:09
how can they find out more about your work or get in touch with
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:13
you?
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:14
Well, my through the websites
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:16
stitchlinks.com, but also my book knit for health and
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:19
wellness, how to knit a flexible mind, has got a lot of advice
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:24
about therapeutic knitting and history of it. And I'm quite
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:29
happy for people to email me Betsan@Stitchlinks.com. Okay.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:35
Yeah. So happy for anybody to contact me.
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:40
Lovely. I mean, Betson it's been an absolute
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:42
pleasure to hear all about your experiences. It's been so
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:46
interesting. And thank you so much for agreeing to come on the
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:49
podcast.
Betsan Corkhill:
00:41:50
Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:57
Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
Mia Hobbs:
00:41:58
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:
00:42:01
knitting you can follow me on Instagram
Mia Hobbs:
00:42:03
@knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic
Mia Hobbs:
00:42:07
knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released.
Mia Hobbs:
00:42:11
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