Everything Isn't Terrible with Dr. Kathleen Smith

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Hi.

00:00:03
Speaker 2: This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker.

00:00:08
Speaker 3: And this is Sarah Hart Hunger.

00:00:10
Speaker 4: I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families.

00:00:17
Speaker 3: Welcome to best of both worlds.

00:00:19
Speaker 2: Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. In this episode, Sarah is going to be interviewing doctor Kathleen Smith, who is a licensed therapy with a PhD in counseling. Is also the author of the book Everything Isn't Terrible. So, Sarah, why don't you tell us a little bit about why you found doctor Smith.

00:00:51
Speaker 4: Yes, so, a blog reader actually recommended her book to me when I was going through some period of overwhelm. I don't remember actually when the initial recommendation came in. I think it was around my big career transition, a lot of big feelings I was having in twenty twenty two, around changing things around and making some really big decisions and going through some tough things, but I kind of forgot about the recommendation and had it in the back of my mind. But then when I had another kind of slightly rocky period, which was nothing big, it was just like kind of struggling to find our family rhythm after travel and just feeling incredibly behind with everything. I wasn't used to taking a whole two weeks away, And it turns out it's like something you you know, have to learn how to deal with, I guess, And so I was like, you know, I should read That Everything Isn't Terrible book that someone recommended to me a year ago, and I just found it really really accessible and warm, and it's like a book that addresses anxiety, but not at the like full on clinical level, like at the level that just many of us are going to experience at various times. Has a lot of practical solutions and good examples in there. So I really liked it and I linked to it on my blog, the shoebox Dot and then I got an email from the author, which is like just the most wild thing that like this happens in this day and age that you can connect to someone that way. But I guess she saw the traffic coming from the shoebox dot com and was like, who is this?

00:02:14
Speaker 3: So then when she wrote me, I was like, would you like to come on? Best of Both?

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Speaker 4: Actually I think she said I'm a best of both worlds listener, like I know you, and then I said would you like to come on?

00:02:21
Speaker 2: So I was so excited. So yeah, that is really awesome. Yeah, I know, it's fun when things turn into a connection that's out there. I mean people are like, oh, I saw this, and then they reach out and you know, I encourage people to send those random emails, right, Like you know, Sarah has a blog, so obviously people can see if she's linking to them. But you know, if you read something by someone you like, you send an email saying you do, and often like people will respond because you know, it's cool to make a connection in the world with somebody who's interested in the same topic.

00:02:51
Speaker 3: So yeah, yes, you can email us anytime.

00:02:54
Speaker 2: Emails anytime. That is true.

00:02:56
Speaker 3: You always love to hear.

00:02:57
Speaker 2: And maybe if you think we're terrible, you can keep that to yourself, but if you have constructive feedback, we're open to that.

00:03:03
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:03:03
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me just say that she has an excellent book title, because you're like, the title is Everything Isn't Terrible. You're like, well, what's your book about? Well, the fact that everything Isn't Terrible? Well, okay, there's no no ambiguity there, So big shout out for that one.

00:03:19
Speaker 3: It was a great title. It is a great title.

00:03:22
Speaker 4: So for you any particular periods in your life when you find things extra stressful and might benefit from reading something called Everything Isn't Terrible?

00:03:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know.

00:03:34
Speaker 2: I mean I I always find book launch times to be a little bit stressful for me, and it's partly because you want to do everything you can, and then you also have to acknowledge that there is a lot that is out of your control. I mean maybe not. If you're like Oprah writing a book or something, then you have the ability or you know, any celebrity has some ability to get on something. But even then their books can tank too. People cannot like them and be like, well that just didn't do anything for me. And next thing, you know, like or big news happens. Right, Like, if there's a huge news thing that happens and your book just came out, your book's gonna get buried and nobody's gonna hear about it, and there is nothing you can do about it. Like, you worked hard on this thing for years and put it out there, and.

00:04:21
Speaker 4: You think of all the Spring twenty twenty books, like Spring twenty twenty books, but you know, everything they had planned in terms of like live events or anything like that, it just didn't work.

00:04:31
Speaker 2: And it wasn't that they didn't write good books or anything, and so you know, sometimes I.

00:04:36
Speaker 3: Get a little, uh.

00:04:38
Speaker 2: The role of luck in this is huge, and some people get very lucky hits first time up at bat and think they've done something brilliant, but often there's not a lot of difference between that book and something that came out in Spring twenty twenty. I didn't have a book come out in Spring twenty twenty, but for people who did, I really felt for them because in many cases they had excellent books, but they didn't get that initial thing.

00:04:58
Speaker 1: Now.

00:04:59
Speaker 2: Of course, if it is an excell book, obviously over time sometimes it can find its audience and grow, and that's that's awesome, But anyway, that's a different thing. So I'm always in a little like tense mood about that and feel like you know, I haven't done X Y or Z, or you know, haven't been able to guarantee X Y and Z, even if I've been doing a ton of stuff.

00:05:18
Speaker 4: So yeah, it probably just feels like never enough, very much out of your control.

00:05:23
Speaker 3: And also that feeling of judgment.

00:05:24
Speaker 4: I mean, I know, like I think the first time I experienced that was when I first launched a course and I was like, oh my god, I'm asking like people to like decide if they want me or not. And like, I guess that's similar to buying a book, and it can be a little scary.

00:05:37
Speaker 1: A little scary.

00:05:38
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I would put a little bit of space between it. They're not buying you, They're buying a product you are offering, correct, And so people can think Sarah is a wonderful, awesome person, and then maybe one of Sarah's products is maybe not as good as all the other ones and people don't want it or you.

00:05:54
Speaker 3: Know, it's not quite as compelling right for them. There wasn't right for right.

00:05:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's totally nothing to do with your worth as a person, which I think is one of those things that probably comes out and everything isn't terrible, right.

00:06:07
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.

00:06:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, well, let's hear what Kathleen has to say about this, and maybe she can convince all of us that everything isn't terrible.

00:06:16
Speaker 4: So I am here with doctor Kathleen Smith, who is the author of Everything Isn't Terrible, which is probably a very timely topic for right now, as lots of us have things on our mind and the news cycle is a little bit more stressful than it even usually is, which is pretty stressful to start with. So Kathleen, thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:06:38
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me Sarah, and.

00:06:39
Speaker 4: I understand that you previously were a best of Both Worlds listener.

00:06:43
Speaker 3: Is that true?

00:06:45
Speaker 5: Yes, I was just saying that it is my one of my personal accountability tools for paying attention to where my time is going and what's important to me.

00:06:54
Speaker 1: It's always a good reminder.

00:06:55
Speaker 4: That makes me so happy and honestly, like I promise, we didn't plant that. This was a really serendipitous and awesome and sometimes our paths collide like that. So Kathleen, your book hit me at a really at the right time. I think someone had recommended it to me like a year prior, but then when I picked it up.

00:07:11
Speaker 3: I really needed it.

00:07:12
Speaker 4: Who did you write this book for and why did you write Everything isn't terrible?

00:07:17
Speaker 5: Well, it's for humans, but in particular I think two groups of folks. For folks who just want to know what a therapist is thinking, what's the lens they're using, what's a theory that's guiding them as they think about people's challenges in everyday terms. It's accessible to anybody. And then also folks who are just really hard on themselves about being stressed, being anxious, letting their sort of automatic behaviors get the best of them. And my goal is to give people a way of thinking about themselves that's a little bit kinder, a little bit and more able to help people see how their behaviors exist in the natural world as well, where they're not necessarily dysfunctional or diagnosis or something that needs to be fixed. It's just humans doing human things. Because some people, I think can be harder on themselves about this stuff than others.

00:08:14
Speaker 4: And I'm guessing was a lot of it glean from your personal practice because you're are you still actively seeing clients?

00:08:21
Speaker 5: I am, you know, but you have to be very careful when you write about people you don't want to tell the exact story because that doesn't respect their confidentiality.

00:08:30
Speaker 1: So it's an.

00:08:30
Speaker 5: Interesting challenge of combining a couple different people who have similar stories, but then changing the details so that nobody's going to go, wait a second, she's writing about me, or she's writing about my sister, you know, but that still honors the truth behind it. So yeah, it's I love telling these stories and the challenges that people are up against because we see ourselves in these stories as well.

00:08:57
Speaker 1: I think.

00:08:58
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, when you read something like this, you're like, we people are much more alike than we are different, I think, and reading something like you sharing these different vignettes that have so many common threads, I think underlines that really well. Now, one of the underpinnings of your work and that you talk about a little bit at the beginning of the book that I was not familiar with is Bowen theory. Can you tell our listeners what that is? And to me it struck me a slightly different but sort of similar to what I know of as cognitive behavioral therapy, So I guess maybe explain what it is and maybe some of the similarities and differences.

00:09:35
Speaker 5: Yes, I'll give you the very brief version, even though I could talk about.

00:09:37
Speaker 1: This all day.

00:09:38
Speaker 5: So Murray Bowen, who is a psychiatrist, was a psychiatrist who really wanted a way of thinking about humans that connected them to evolution in the natural world.

00:09:50
Speaker 1: Back in the day.

00:09:51
Speaker 5: Every psychiatrist is trained in psychoanalysis, right, they're learning about Freid. That's their way of thinking about things. And he wasn't really on board with that. He said, you know, I don't think humans are these mystical creatures that we kind of portray them to be. I think a lot of what we do you might see chimpanzees doing, or bees or prairie dogs. You know, we are social creatures and we operate in ways together in groups to help keep things steady. So what if there were a way of thinking about our anxious behaviors not as maladaptive, but actually as quite useful and adaptive for better or worse. And if people could see themselves in this way, would it help them maybe calm down a little bit or get a little bit more objectivity when they're thinking about their family, you know, or their work, And they could say, well, what's my part in all this? What do I want to do differently, Can I be a little bit more of a grown up in this situation and that could be useful for people. And so he had this idea that you could sort of develop a sign of human behavior by looking at the family, and so he was one of the fathers of family psychotherapy. Although I use bowe and theory with individuals as well, it's not just a type of family therapy. I think there are definitely some similarities to CBT. I think CBT is very technique focus, which I think is one of the reasons it's quite popular. It's something that people can kind of take and practice and use that's very practical, whereas I think with bow and theory, not that it's not practical, but it's a lot of more as a lifelong endeavor. This is a way of thinking about human relationships. It's not the way or the only way, but it's a way of thinking about human relationships and how people can maybe manage their anxiety a little bit more thoughtfully when they go home for Thanksgiving or when their kid is losing it right. And that's been really helpful for me personally, and that's why I use it in my practice.

00:12:00
Speaker 4: And there is a lot of discussion speaking of going home for Thanksgiving, which actually that's timely too, because this episode is going to air probably like late October and the holidays are approaching, so actually this is quite timely. You talk a lot about the importance of those primary and oldest relationships, like the one we have with our siblings and our parents, And I did find that interesting because that did differ from a lot of other kind of books in this realm that I've looked at before. Why do you and why does Bowen theory consider that it's so important? And how can people work on those challenges? Like what would you say to people already thinking and spiraling about maybe having more of that family time coming up?

00:12:39
Speaker 1: Sure?

00:12:39
Speaker 5: Well, I always love to ask people, how long can you be with your family before you regress to your teenage self?

00:12:45
Speaker 1: You know, is it twenty four hours?

00:12:46
Speaker 3: Forty eight?

00:12:47
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a lot less than.

00:12:50
Speaker 5: These forces, these sort of predictable ways of relating to each other. You can see them in any relationship. But the closer you are to somebody, the more automatic they're going to be. You know, I'm an overfunctioner. I love to do things for people that they can do for themselves. I'm a helper, That's why I have the job that I do, right, But if I go home, that is sort of magnified or amplified even more so. Right, I am more likely to do something for my dad when I don't necessarily need to. You're just more allergic to the people you're often the closest to. And it's not that those have to be the relationships you work on, but I think people find that they get sort of more mileage out of them because they're a little bit tougher to think and act for yourself in the middle of all that togetherness. So people often find it useful, you know, if they can go home for a holiday or spend some time with family and kind of be like a naturalist or an anthropologist. Can you watch what people do when the anxiety gets dialed up and then all of a sudden you're curious about it, right, And that is very different than being just frustrated by people or annoyed by them.

00:14:02
Speaker 1: And so if.

00:14:03
Speaker 5: People can kind of put on that researcher hat, I think they often find that it's it's a little easier to be interested in people than maybe you usually are. So that's the assignment I usually give folks when they go home for the holidays.

00:14:18
Speaker 4: So fascinating and probably useful for a lot of us. I love that, And you know, there's like an element of mindfulness of that, right, like because you're like, oh, I'm just gonna like observe. But also I feel like hearing you say that, there's like a self compassionate piece as well, because you're like, well, this is hard and we do regress, and we're animals and we have these social challenges and like maybe that's okay or normal, and like, how do I make the best of it versus this is all a failure.

00:14:42
Speaker 3: Everyone sucks, you know, the end.

00:14:46
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

00:14:46
Speaker 5: Just to give you a quick example, I can think of a couple of years ago. I was at my grandmother's house and this is you know, she was in her nineties, and I'd lost my cell phone and I just casually mentioned that I couldn't find it, and of course everyone immediately jumps up and is like diving under couches and anxiously looking for my phone. And I'm just going, guys, like I got it. I can find it.

00:15:09
Speaker 1: I'm capable, you know. But I think bow and Theory.

00:15:13
Speaker 5: Was useful to in that moment, because I could go, Okay, here we go. I'm even mildly distressed, and everyone starts to try and calm me down and overfunction for me. Right, And that's really interesting to pay attention to.

00:15:26
Speaker 1: That's a different way.

00:15:26
Speaker 5: Of thinking about it than oh, my goodness, what is with these people? They will not give me a break?

00:15:33
Speaker 4: I love it?

00:15:34
Speaker 3: No, so interesting and so timely.

00:15:37
Speaker 4: Well, how about flipping the script from thinking about our own parents and going home to thinking about our parenting, which often brings up plenty of anxiety and self judgment, Anxiety about how our kids are turning out, Anxiety about are we doing this right? Anxiety about like am I giving my kids the tools they need to succeed in this scary new world? Or whatever people are thinking? So, how are some ways that you help people? I don't think there was a parenting chapter specifically. I'm trying to think there was, like dating relationships. But I'm sure you work with many clients that face these things, and you are a parent yourself, I believe, so I am give us some tools for those common challenges.

00:16:21
Speaker 1: Yes.

00:16:22
Speaker 5: Well, when I was writing this book, I had just had my daughter, so I felt a little presumptuous to include a parentic chapter. I said, let's give us a little time, But yes, I do work with a lot of parents and grandparents also, which is a lot of fun. And my next book we'll have more about parenting. But we're up against the culture. We live in a child focused society. So much of our culture encourage us us to put a very anxious focus on our kids, and I just want to acknowledge that that's what we're up against as parents. And what does it take for a person to make a project out of themselves as a parent. One of my colleagues who was in bow In Theories, while her name is doctor Jenny Brown, she uses this statement which I find really useful. You know, how do you make a project out of yourself versus your kid? How do you manage your own distress when your child is upset? Can you develop your own principles as a parent versus just grabbing a bunch of books? Resources and books can be certainly helpful, but also what's your own thinking about what it is you're trying to do here? That might change over time, That's okay, but so often we just don't take that time to sit down and ask ourselves, what am I trying to do here? What is within my control? Can I see that there are it's not just on me. There are things my child will do that invite my over focus and my overfunctioning for them. And that's also just what humans do. And so it's not about blaming any one person in particular. We're pretty hard on moms. So how do we see the whole system working? Can you think about what you do when the child is fighting with the other parent or they're having an argument and they pull you into that triangle? How do you manage yourself in that? You know, that's a lot of what I'm helping think about is helping parents think about what's their part in this whole system and can they be a little bit more thoughtful and how useful that is for a kid to have our kids to have a parent who is trying to hang in there and manage their anxiety in a more responsible way. That does a lot more than any strategy or parenting technique.

00:18:40
Speaker 4: And probably certainly more than looking to the external as to like where are the perfect examples that I need to be a quote keeping up with. So, yeah, it's a great reminder that the internal focus probably is the place to start and linger a little bit rather than the outside. Well, we're going to take a quick break and talk a little bit about work and news and some other stuff, so we'll be right back. All right, we are back, and I'm here still with doctor Kathleen Smith, and we are going to talk a little bit about the workplace, since this is best of both worlds, and we've covered some parenting stuff, so now it's time to talk about work. And I love this section of the book. There are a lot of like specific examples. There's even a whole chapter dedicated to your terrible boss. I am not saying that applies to me or has applied to me, but can be very useful info for people in different scenarios. So and difficult co workers too, all these sticky things at work. So what are kind of the common things that you tend to recommend when somebody is suffering in their job environment.

00:19:53
Speaker 5: Well, a lot of the work that I do helps people look at the patterns, you know, what are the.

00:19:57
Speaker 1: Quick ways that you.

00:20:00
Speaker 5: Try and keep things calm or that other people try and keep things calm in a workplace. And often you will see these same patterns that you see in the family. Right, Maybe you know I mentioned overfunctioning. Maybe there's some people who are really big overfunctioning for others and they're burning out. They're taking on responsibilities that aren't theres you know, another a common pattern would be triangles. Right, So the more stress there is in an office or workplace, the more triangles you're going to see. And just a simple definition, a triangle is like when there's tension between two people, you pull in a third person. Maybe you complain to them or vent to them, or you gossip, or you use them to deliver the message to your boss that you don't want to deliver. Right, And triangles aren't necessarily good or bad, but I think it's useful to pay attention to how we use other people at work to sort of circumvent or avoid working on the relationships that are a little bit more tense or anxious. When do I need to have and Boe and theory, what's called having a little more self? You know, when do I need to have a little more self? And how I respond to this person who's kind of rubbing me the wrong way or generating some tension. You know, I'm not saying you always have to move closer to people. Sometimes the opposite is true. But you know, how do you not be one more sort of cog in the system who's just anxiously passing the anxiety onto the next person. And that goes back to what I just said about parenting, Right, Can I manage this in a little bit more of a responsible way? Maybe that means being honest with people. Maybe that means saying what I can and cannot do, rather than pretending like I can do it and then trying to.

00:21:46
Speaker 1: Bail out later.

00:21:48
Speaker 5: Or maybe I don't go home and vent to my spouse and then I feel good enough about it that I just go back in there the next day and do the same thing right. And so often at work people really get caught up in being over responsible with others. We're very focused on other people's immaturity and what they're doing wrong. And I'm sure they give us plenty of examples.

00:22:10
Speaker 1: But going back to that.

00:22:12
Speaker 5: Question of who am I trying to be here? How do I be responsible for myself in this anxious environment? And what is not my responsibility? I think getting really clear about that. Maybe even making a list can be useful for folks. I mean those are just a few things I think of with work.

00:22:30
Speaker 3: No, that's great.

00:22:31
Speaker 4: I mean thinking about the what is not my responsibility makes me think of an episode we did a while back on like non promotable activities and how you know, women in particular face a lot of pressure sometimes to do those things or to put on certain appearances. But getting at the core of like what am I here for, what am I trying to achieve could be really helpful and probably healthier than the alternative. So I like that, all right, the new cycle this is a timely one I did. We did not know there would be so much going on in the news when we scheduled this interview. My everything isn't terrible had nothing to do with the news and had to do with like hormones and stuff. But I will say the stuff going on, and if you go to New York Times dot com, ORCNN dot com, it's very anxiety provoking to many right now, so many acute conflicts going on, and then there's also kind of like those longer term nagging thoughts of despair that a lot of people have, And I feel like some of those voices are getting appropriately louder and louder, and yet we still have to function, we still get to live. And I thought this book is really great at providing some perspective and as people are struggling with this right now, and I know many who are, what are some strategies we can bring to the table in processing all of this stuff coming at us? Yeah?

00:24:00
Speaker 5: Well, what's useful for me in using Bowen theory is this idea that you see the same patterns in society that you would see in an anxious family. It's they're a little harder to spot sometimes, but you know what people do when you dial up the anxiety. I mean some of these things I've already just mentioned, right, they become overinvolved with how everyone else is responding to a crisis or a tragedy or a challenge.

00:24:24
Speaker 1: Right.

00:24:25
Speaker 5: It's easy to get focused on other people's behaviors, right. Or you might distance and not want to have anything to do with at all. People do that in families too, right. Or you might feel so helpless that you just anxiously borrow what somebody else is doing or how they're responding without really thinking about it for yourself, and that sort of group think process.

00:24:47
Speaker 1: Right.

00:24:48
Speaker 5: So, to me, what a person can do is ask two questions and I mentioned these just a minute ago, But how do I want to be responsible for myself right now? That could be I'm going to sit down and learn about this topic, or I'm going to figure out what I believe, or I'm going to put my phone down or out of the room at night. And that is one way of being responsible for myself, because we cannot respond to complex problems when we've been doom scrolling and are anxious and overwhelmed. Right, And the second question is how do I want to be responsible to others? Note that's different than being responsible for others. We're not responsible for other people except maybe our children if they're miners. But being responsible to people is, you know, how do I want to show up in these important relationships or in relationships with people I don't know or have never met, or across the world.

00:25:44
Speaker 2: Right.

00:25:46
Speaker 5: I think that those are two useful questions for people. And I think another thing people can do is stay connected with people who are solving complex problems. Over the long haul, you know, you'll get a lot of people attacking the problem often, so much of what we do is about managing our own anxiety than actually helping somebody or contributing to some of these big problems in the world. But there are these people, and I have these people in my life who seem to kind of chug along, you know, they don't seem to be as affected by the rest of us because they're playing the long game, right, They're able to kind of manage their anxiety a little bit more thoughtfully about some of these hard things. And so I think having those relationships with people who've managed to do that in one way or another is really valuable. So I think that's a question people can ask themselves, who do I know who's doing something about this or who's really thinking about this? And is that a useful inspiration for me when I get wrapped up in calming things down as quickly as possible or just avoiding everything because it feels too overwhelming, and not mistaking help for managing your anxiety. You know that to me, that's the difference between reacting and responding. Reacting acting quickly certainly has its place, and it's very important in some situations, but there is the long game too, and so I think it's useful to not lose sight of that.

00:27:23
Speaker 4: That makes sense, I mean, so reacting would be kind of like that nervous energy where you are just kind of jumping to something. Maybe reading a heated comment section versus responding would be a more thoughtful and measured response. Actually thinking of how you could help others?

00:27:39
Speaker 1: Does that?

00:27:40
Speaker 3: Do I have that kind of right?

00:27:42
Speaker 4: Yeah?

00:27:42
Speaker 5: I mean getting mad at people can calm you down. Kind of sounds paradoxical, but it actually focusing on other people to blame is a great way to manage your own anxiety, but there is a heavy cost to it. We often burn out or feel like we've done something when maybe we really haven't.

00:28:00
Speaker 4: Oh interesting, So with all this said, and with all the stressors in our environment right now, what do you think about professional help? When is the moment or what are signs that suggest that a person should be seeking out a professional in addition to just reading wonderful books and following those strategies. And I know, as straightforward as it may seem, it can be hard to find a therapist who's a fit. So any tips on finding someone are welcome, because even I, who I feel like have tons of resource, have found this challenging in the past.

00:28:34
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think above all, I'm thinking of two things.

00:28:37
Speaker 5: One is just somebody who's really upfront about explaining the theory or theories that they use and seems to be honest about whether will be useful for you or not, because you know, I get a lot of emails or calls from folks who are very focused on relieving a particular symptom or learning a particular technique, and I tell them, there are people who do that, but that's not one of the things I do with people. Here's how my work works and what the theory I use looks like, because often I think sometimes therapist will not be upfront about that. And so just can you get somebody who's really clear about what they do with people and what the limitations are. I think that will be really helpful for you, so you're not going to waste your.

00:29:26
Speaker 1: Time or their time, because not everybody is a good fit.

00:29:30
Speaker 5: And the second thing is I think somebody who is able to manage themselves in a responsible way, right. I'm always trying. I fail at this often, you know, I'm always trying to manage my own anxiety so that a person can do good thinking right. And often when in stressful times, you know, even helpers like myself will become overinvolved or want to fix things as quickly as possible. So I think getting a sense of can a person manage themselves well when I'm bringing my distress to the room, you know, versus just trying to kind of keep me happy and keep me calm. That can feel good in the moment. But I think if you're really looking to kind of grown your own capacity for some of these things, having a therapist who's kind of able to handle their own stuff and their own anxiety, their own reactions in a mature way is helpful. And I think you can get a sense of that early.

00:30:32
Speaker 1: On with folks. Those are the two things I think of.

00:30:36
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't I think if someone is thinking about getting professional help and you know, they should pursue it, and if it isn't serving you, then you can stop. But I think asking people if it's affordable, you know, do you have a sliding scale? Do you have other more affordable options you can recommend? I mean that is in our code of ethics to give you that in so you should make people do their job if you're worried about the cost, because it's our job to connect you, connect you with folks who can help or help in the way that we can and are sort of ethically bound to do. So I always encourage people to kind of push a little bit and get that information from folks because that's part of our job.

00:31:24
Speaker 3: That is great. I love that. I love that permission.

00:31:26
Speaker 4: So yes, if you end up finding someone but they're inaccessible for some reason, that's a great resource.

00:31:31
Speaker 3: Ask around who else?

00:31:32
Speaker 5: Then?

00:31:32
Speaker 3: Who else can they recommend? So Love of the Week?

00:31:36
Speaker 1: You want me to go first?

00:31:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, you had it ready.

00:31:40
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:31:40
Speaker 5: So I read a lot of nonfiction, but I'm also a really big romance novel reader. I know romance is very popular these days. It's exploding in the publishing industry. So right now I'm reading a wonderful historical romance called Knockout by Sarah McLain.

00:31:57
Speaker 1: Maybe a lot of folks have heard of her.

00:32:00
Speaker 5: She does a podcast called Faded Mates, which is about romance novels.

00:32:04
Speaker 1: Which is wonderful.

00:32:05
Speaker 5: So I always enjoy having that escape from reading science books and other things, and so that's what I'm reading right now.

00:32:13
Speaker 3: I love it.

00:32:14
Speaker 4: I'm going to stick with books too, since you started with that theme. I don't think i've ever read anything by Anne Patchett. I didn't like, and I'm just about to finish Tom Lake and I loved it and it was what I needed right now.

00:32:25
Speaker 3: So do you want kind of like a I mean.

00:32:28
Speaker 4: I'm not going to say there's nothing stressful or traumatic that happens in the book, but overall it's a very calming read, as I find many of her books to be for me.

00:32:37
Speaker 3: So awesome, great, great reading.

00:32:39
Speaker 5: I was in a New York a couple of weeks ago and a bookstore and I heard this voice that I recognized and I turned around and it was Anne Patch. Oh yeah, it's like I've heard this woman's voice before.

00:32:51
Speaker 1: And then I didn't go up. I was little too starstruck.

00:32:55
Speaker 3: But oh, that is so cool.

00:32:57
Speaker 4: I've been to her bookstore, but she wasn't there, for at least she was hiding if she was there. I mean, I bought a signed copy of a book though.

00:33:03
Speaker 3: That was fun.

00:33:04
Speaker 4: Anyway, Well, this was lovely. Tell our listeners where they can find you, and also what you're working on, because we might have to have you back on in the future.

00:33:12
Speaker 5: Yeah, people can find me on substack. My newsletter is the Anxious Overachiever and I send a couple free ones out a month of folks.

00:33:21
Speaker 1: It's a great resource if you.

00:33:22
Speaker 5: Want to learn more about Bowen theory as well. And my next book is called True to You, How to Stop Pleasing others and Start being Yourself, and that comes out in July, which feels like a million years from now, but it really is with Saint Martin's Essentials.

00:33:40
Speaker 4: So oh, that's awesome. That sounds like a wonderful topic as well. So I will definitely be checking that out and we'll remind our listeners of it when it comes out as well.

00:33:49
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming on.

00:33:51
Speaker 1: Thanks, Sarah was fun.

00:33:53
Speaker 4: All right, Well we are back and we have a listener question about some school chy stuff.

00:34:00
Speaker 1: Hi.

00:34:00
Speaker 4: That's been kind of like a theme in our questions lately, but this one's a little bit different. Do you want to paraphrase this one?

00:34:07
Speaker 1: Ah? Sure.

00:34:08
Speaker 2: So this listener, who lives in Canada, where registration opens in January for kindergarten, is debating which school to enroll her child in. They have some public choice options, so that's exciting. One school is four blocks away from her house, but it is far from her child's daycare center. She says that means we would have to enroll him in multiple childcare programs because they'd be looking to get after school care at the place where he's going. The upside with a school that is closed is when he's a little bit older, say you know, sixth grade or so, he'd be able to walk home. They also have an option to go to an elementary school that is a five minute drive away, right next to his current daycare center, and the school in the center would be able to take care of all his child care, so doing the aftercare there. She also says that it would be more streamlined because a lot of his current group at the daycare will be going to this school. Adding to this, her child is on the autism spectrum and they have some slightly better supports at the slightly farther away school for that. However, she's worried that it is further there will be you know, no way to get him back without a driver. I guess if they're further away, and they don't know what their work situations will be like in future years, So she doesn't know if she's thinking too short term by choosing the school that is close to his daycare versus one that is close to the house.

00:35:40
Speaker 1: So, Sarah, what do.

00:35:41
Speaker 4: You think, Yeah, I think she should pick the one that's slightly farther away. And I felt like that instantly because I thought, the only benefit of staying close has to do with potential benefits in many, many years for.

00:35:54
Speaker 2: The most part, because he won't be able to walk home by himself for a couple of years at least.

00:35:57
Speaker 4: You right, And you also like, but if you change jobs between now and then, and then the whole thing's in moot point, and then you made a sacrifice but potentially a lesser environment for him for this convenience later on, that didn't even happen. So to me, the benefits are too long range, and I would instead go with what makes the most sense now. And the fact that you mentioned even like the fact that for him having some special needs and the support being even a little bit better reputation wise, it probably makes sense to go with that.

00:36:27
Speaker 3: So's that's the way I would lean.

00:36:29
Speaker 2: What about you, Yeah, I was leaning for that as well. I mean, I think that it's wonderful to think long term, but I also think that because so much in life can change. I mean, one of the phrases that we use around here is plan tightly and then plan lightly. You can pretty much see the next two years or so and with your kid's life and your job and things like that. Past that, I mean, who knows. You can get a different job, your partner could get a different job, your job could move, your job could become fully remote, you know, you could a new school could open that's like excellent for your child, and that's totally different place, and you want to move him to that or who even knows right so you can do this. I don't know how Canada works. If it's possible to change your enrollment at some point, you know, if you do decide, and I would imagine you know, in the United States, especially if you do have a child with special needs, you have certain rights that you can have hearings and things like that. Even if it wasn't possible to easily move a kid, you might be able to have that happen. I don't know how Canada works, but just saying that, given that you think the school is going to be better for his needs now it's more convenient. Now, just take that. If that changes, you might be able to move in the future and deal with that, then love it.

00:37:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm surprised I'm coming out against planning ahead, but in this particular case.

00:37:53
Speaker 2: And don't think against the one that's closer. But it's not logistically more convenient now. It's just that it will be more logistically convenient in a few years when he can walk home on his own, so that's a different matter. Yeah, all right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing doctor Kathleen Smith about how everything isn't terrible and how we can maybe come up with some coping strategies when life seems a little bit overwhelming. But we're not necessarily dealing with, you know, clinical anxiety or depression. People are just feeling a little bit glum about life in general. So lots of helpful tips there, lots of helpful tips there. Sorry, yes, I can't talk this morning. We will be back next week with more on making work and life fit together.

00:38:34
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

00:38:35
Speaker 4: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.

00:38:42
Speaker 2: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together,