The Cold Pitch That Took Her From Unknown To Hollywood | Ava DuVernay

 Your films are provocative, like very provocative.
 In a meaningful, impactful way.
 I think it's a scary time to have an opinion period.
 Oh.
 It's hard, it's hard right now.
 And so I think everyone has to decide what's comfortable for them within my work.
 Very well said.
 Give it up for Ava Diverney!
 Key body and Emmy winning director.
 Ground breaking force in Hollywood.
 After I made my film, I, in a very transactional way, sent him a pitch.
 Okay.
 I just sent it like I always did all business.
 And he says, yes, I'll do the movie at this time.
 That in itself is a B.F.D.
 How audacious.
 And how beautiful of him to say yes.
 Shit.
 Those boys have been around so long.
 He got it.
 And he got it from a deeply personal place.
 And that spurred him to continue to talk about it in ways that really changed my career.
 I look at it now and feel proud of the girl who did not know what the back or front side of a camera was really
 and just decided to tell the story.
 Cinema is a expressive force that changes your energy when you watch.
 That kind of gave me the chills.
 There was nothing he could get from doing that.
 But he did it anyway.
 That act of being taken seriously is what he gave as an armor.
 If you could speak to the version of yourself before the review, before the review, what would you tell?
 See.
 In this podcast, we sit out with some of the world's most successful people who reveal a person that believed in them before the world did.
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 This is the person who believed in me.
 I'm David Begno.
 My guest is Eva DuVernay, filmmaker, kingmaker.
 She's got films you've heard of and projects she's working on behind the scenes that you know nothing about.
 She is constantly working to not only amplify what we see in film, but she's working with people behind the scenes to provide opportunities for people who want to be Eva DuVernay one day.
 She was a publicist, a young girl who grew up in Southern California with a big dream, and as you will hear her say,
 she believed in herself from a very young age and her ability to do exactly what she put her mind to.
 So if you would welcome to the program, my friend, Eva, it's great to have you here.
 I'm so happy to be here. I remember when there was no here.
 Thank you for saying yes.
 Well, let's start off this way.
 You were, here's why I'm super excited that you're in the chair.
 You were the first and only person I reached out to when I hatched this idea and I pulled up the text message because I want to read it back to you and remind you.
 So I wrote to you and I told you all about the concept.
 The person who believed in me, every guest is a big name, but the star of every episode is the everyday person who believed in them before the world did it.
 And you said to me, it's a good idea for a show.
 It's aspirational and uplifting.
 We could shoot it as a pilot for your company.
 She goes, by we, I mean you of course, but happy to be the subject.
 And then you said you'd have so many high profile folks interested in being featured as for viewers, it's aspirational.
 I want to be the person people might think who helps someone like that one day.
 Wow.
 That's what you said.
 I did not recall that. I'm glad we had that exchange.
 So thank you for believing in me in the concept and supporting it by being here.
 Well, and look what you've done.
 Now we're here.
 Voila.
 Voila.
 I want to start with this.
 Okay.
 Okay.
 Yes.
 I feel that everyone else's person is going to be a person that might not have been as famous as this person.
 But I didn't want to change my answer based on fame or not.
 I wanted to be based on a person who believed in me that changed everything.
 Some people might be listening and not watching this.
 So tell people what we're looking at.
 Okay.
 I'm looking at a picture of myself as a little girl with my thumb in the air like a thumbs up standing next to an older gentleman with sunglasses and that gentleman also has a thumbs up.
 And it is Roger Ebert.
 And he is the man who believed in you.
 He is.
 How old were you in that photo?
 I don't know.
 It has to be eight.
 No.
 Do you remember even taking that?
 I remember the day.
 I do.
 I remember it.
 I remember the day really well.
 It was a ritual that my aunt Denise who plays a big part in my love of film.
 My aunt Denise would take me and my sisters Gina and Tara down to the shrine auditorium in Los Angeles on Saturday before the Oscars on Sunday.
 And on Saturday is when all of the presenters would come in and rehearse.
 So every single presenter on the Oscars to this day has to come in the day before and walk on the stage at least once.
 Feel the cameras, feel the lights and do a little rehearsal.
 The public can watch that.
 They can watch them go ahead.
 Just stand on the street.
 And so over the years they put up stanchions and leachers and risers and it's become a thing.
 But back then my aunt Denise before the Oscars were the huge spectacle that is now.
 Just a centipile, just a film lover knew this and for years we would go down and watch the stars go in to the rehearsal.
 And we would drive from Compton and we would be some of the only black people out there.
 And I got to see everyone at the time share and I don't know Michael Keaton and just all the people that I'd seen in the movies.
 Were you looking for Roger Ebert?
 I knew him.
 I knew that he was famous from the TV show.
 He had a TV show at the time that people might not know.
 Cisco and Ebert.
 Cisco and Ebert.
 At one time I think it was called at the movies but the Cisco and Ebert, the two guys that gave thumbs up,
 two guys that were just sit in a theater.
 Brilliant concept.
 Sit in a theater and argue about movies.
 I would say, I don't know, I'm guessing, ten.
 Maybe, eight, nine, two.
 Okay.
 Okay.
 So is this girl that we're looking at in this photo dreaming of being a filmmaker?
 No, not at all.
 She just loved movies.
 She just loved movies.
 I just loved movies and I loved experiencing movies with my aunt Denise.
 I talked so much about my aunt Denise.
 The theater on my campus is named the Amanda Theater after her middle name.
 She was so formative she gave me my love of movies.
 But in talking about her and dedicating the theater to her and so many other things that I used to salute her,
 I thought this show would be good to talk about, you know, a couple other people.
 So we're going to wander, but I want to go now to a tweet from March the 5th, 2011, 132 PM.
 From Roger Ebert's account, he writes,
 I love the new indie film, I will follow, which opens March 11th in about a dozen big US cities.
 Here's my TV review.
 And about, oh, I don't know, 39 minutes later, Ava DuVernay tweets speechless.
 Did Roger Ebert just tweet the words love and I will follow.
 I am without words truly overjoyed and so grateful.
 You remember that day?
 Not too.
 I do.
 Big deal.
 What was going through your mind?
 It was a big deal because I had worked as a film publicist before that tweet.
 And I had interacted with him as a publicist.
 I would, he would book himself.
 So he, a lot of the big, you know, TV personalities like yourself,
 you're not taking calls from off the street from anyone.
 You have people on your team that will, you know, take the requests and consider them
 and bring them to you as a big TV star that you are.
 He was also a big TV star, but he's based in Chicago.
 And this is a different time.
 I mean, we barely had social media then.
 It was just Twitter.
 And, and I think in my space had been there.
 And it wasn't as, I don't know, kind of digitized and easy as it was as it is now.
 And I was able as a publicist to reach him directly.
 He didn't have a booker.
 If you wanted to book him to watch a movie, you wrote him.
 Oh.
 I know.
 And so I would write, he had a certain theater they liked in town.
 He had a certain time that he liked to do it.
 And it was just his way and everybody did it.
 So I would write him and ask him to review films that I was representing.
 And he would write me back.
 And this is very transactional.
 Mr. Ebert, a picture in this movie, it's about this.
 Super unemotional.
 Just like business.
 It's all business.
 I'm a publicist.
 He's a critic.
 This is my job.
 This is his job.
 This is the thing.
 Or no, I'm not going to review that movie.
 Somebody else is going to do it.
 Or whatever.
 And so I'd had to turn ahead.
 So after I made my film, I'm in a very transactional way.
 Send him a pitch for my movie.
 I did not put my, I didn't start with, hi, this is my movie.
 I just sent it like I always do.
 Here's the movie.
 This is the screening time.
 All business.
 And he says, yes, I'll do the movie at this time.
 All transaction.
 I'm like, he doesn't even know it's me great.
 Okay.
 That in itself that I will do the movie is a BFD.
 Yeah, I'm going to review this film.
 Because it's your first film.
 Yes.
 I'm working as a publicist to make bread.
 Yes.
 It's barely on any festivals.
 It's not in Sundance.
 You have 50 grand.
 That was it.
 That's what I made the movie for.
 50 grand.
 And you asked like the critic of our time to say what he thinks.
 That's right.
 How audacious.
 And how beautiful of him to say yes.
 He says yes to this little movie that's made for almost all money.
 I remember scraping up money because I couldn't use studio money to get the screening room for him.
 I remember thinking, ah, just I'm going to use all my money to get the screening room for him that he likes to see this movie.
 He watches the movie and he writes me back and says, your movie.
 I watched your movie.
 I'll be in touch.
 And I was like, your movie.
 Does it mean my movie that I'm representing?
 Right.
 Does it mean my movie like you know this is my movie?
 Right.
 And I was going through all this with some friends and they were like, of course, you know this is your movie.
 Your name comes up at the end, right?
 So I'm freaking out.
 I don't know what he thinks.
 Does he feel like I manipulated him?
 Does he feel like I'm freaking out?
 I don't say nothing else comes until the tweet.
 Shit.
 Okay.
 So I would like I thought about this for a moment.
 I was like, should I read this?
 No, no, no, no, no.
 I want Ava to read it.
 The review?
 It's part of the review.
 Oh.
 Oh, this is going to get me.
 Yeah.
 I will follow.
 And tell a story so much as try to understand a woman through her.
 We can find insights into the way we deal with death.
 In one way or another, every emotion in this wonderful independent film is one I've experienced
 myself, grief, of course, but also anger, loneliness, confusion and a sense of loss direction.
 Above all, urgent conversations you have in your mind about someone who is no longer alive.
 How many people now dead have you wanted to ask questions you should have asked when they
 were alive?
 It was a meditation on grief was what the film was and he being someone who at the time was
 battling with a life threatening illness really understood something about it that it went
 beyond the excitement of him reviewing the film.
 He got it and he got it from a deeply personal place and that spurred him to continue to
 talk about it in ways that really changed my career.
 Had this review not happened, would you be where you are today?
 I don't think it would have happened the way it did.
 I can't say I do believe that everything happens for a reason.
 I do believe that what I create for a living was meant to be and so it might have come
 through a different track or it may have been later or it might have been different.
 But I do know that everything that's happened now in all the steps since this was a huge
 first step because I had applied for Sundance seven times and with this film, the labs,
 the shorts, the documentary, everything.
 This is my first feature film I applied to be in labs.
 I applied for the script.
 I applied for the festival.
 That film didn't make it into the Sundance film festival.
 So as an independent American filmmaker, that's the huge, huge thing.
 And after that, it's like, well, I'm on my own.
 I got to get this film out of my own.
 So that review put it on the map as if I had been at a Sundance.
 People were taking notice of the film and my very next film did make it into Sundance.
 And I believe the buzz from the first one made them take a closer look at the second one.
 And there were some key people involved in that.
 But I know that, you know, I was booked on CNN.
 I was booked on warning shows.
 I was able to use his review to get other reviews.
 Other reviewers had said, no, we will not review the film.
 You know, it's too small.
 It's not opening enough markets.
 You're not in our city such and such.
 But his national review made it of national concern.
 And as soon as I start to send that review to people, they start to assign reviews.
 I've been telling stories for 25 years.
 And when I read his review, you know how it hit me was I said, this was a man who was not
 just entertained by a film.
 This was a man who was impacted by it.
 I felt like he was moved by it, yeah.
 You felt like he was moved.
 He literally wrote that.
 Yeah, he did.
 He did.
 I felt like he was moved by it.
 He was just such a gorgeous review and as someone who loved him and watched him on television
 and then as a publicist began to interact with him and really read his reviews and knew
 his voice, I could tell that that review was one that he'd put some time into and that
 his heart was in it.
 But also, isn't that what we're after like you and I?
 Isn't that what we're after?
 We're not just looking to entertain.
 You want to impact.
 Yeah, absolutely.
 Absolutely.
 And if you can do that to a critic.
 I think so, but also the confidence that it gives someone who didn't go to film, I didn't
 go to film school.
 I'd never done this before.
 I put together my own money, a small crew, everything was borrowed and to actually send it
 to this big critic and have him see it and say that it had value gave me confidence to
 move forward.
 So I think that, you know, in answer to the question of what the career have been the
 same, I think there's something in the alchemy and the chemistry and the energy of what his
 attention did that actually changed me in a way that even if other connections had led
 me to Sundance or something else, his review and what he continued to do about amplifying
 that film gave me a confidence that I took with me.
 To watch the film I went and signed up for a library card, so I didn't have and I that
 yes on canopy and that's all I got to watch it.
 And something about the film, what I wrote which stuck out to me, maybe above all else,
 is that the film shows us how grief not only connects us, but isolates us at the same
 time.
 And so for people who haven't seen the film, give us the cliff notes of what it is about.
 Well, it's a little handmade film.
 I look at it now and feel proud of the girl who did not know what the back or front side
 of a camera was really and just decided to tell the story.
 It's about my aunt Denise and the day that I moved out of a home that we shared, she
 was a huge influence on me, really helped shape who I am today.
 She and my mother and my grandmother, I was raised in this matriarchy and they were strong
 ladies, but Denise was a very particular personality.
 And so when I was already working as a publicist, she was diagnosed with breast cancer for
 the second time and by the time they caught it, it was already stage four.
 She had been told she had about a year, she lived for an extra year.
 And I said, you know what, let's just live well.
 So I moved out of my apartment, she moved out of her apartment and we got a house on
 the beach and Long Beach here in California in an area that she always wanted to live.
 And we spent the last couple years doing the chemo treatments and doing all of that, but
 really knowing that this was an inevitability and trying to live as well as we could during
 that time.
 The film is about me having to move out of that house and go on with life and try to figure
 out how to go back to the life that I had, which would be forever impacted without her
 and kind of leave that space.
 So the film all takes place in one day where the main character who's inspired by my own
 experience packs up and moves out of a home she shared with someone she loved who's gone.
 That's what it's about.
 Does every film you've gone on to create have some personal or emotional connection for
 you to the film?
 I think so, I mean, I think I think I, I, I, I, I, I can't just do work for hire.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 I have to feel connected to it somehow.
 I mean, I look at something like when they see us and certainly that's not my personal
 experience.
 But those boys were my age, I remember watching that on TV.
 It was personal because I was experiencing it as the public at the time and, and you know,
 they so connected to the issues of justice within it.
 So yeah, I feel like, but even in, or something like Queen Sugar, there, there are characters
 in it and things that people say and do that certainly come from me and my family.
 Set in New Orleans on my dad.
 Yes.
 From Louisiana.
 Come on.
 And aired on the Oprah Winfrey network from God seven, seven seasons.
 Yeah.
 What thought it was eight?
 And by the way, every director of every season was a woman.
 That's right.
 Intentionally.
 Yes.
 Not by accident.
 Intentionally.
 Yeah.
 We were told it wasn't possible.
 You know what, David?
 We were just trying to model all the hundreds of shows since the beginning of television that
 had all men.
 We were just, you know, trying to do the same thing.
 It's why I believe that your work is about so much more than just telling a story, right?
 Like you're not only amplifying things on screen, but there's stuff happening behind
 the scenes.
 You know, I wanted to tell a little story before we jump back in to the, to the Ebert
 part, which is, you know, he is the star of the episode.
 But when you invited me to array, which is your sprawling entity in, what is it, echo
 part?
 Yeah.
 Historic Filipino town, which is fabulous.
 And I walked around, oh, by the way, the people who took me on a tour were people who employed
 you as a publicist back day.
 Oh, yes.
 To follow.
 And now they work for you.
 Well, we work together.
 Okay.
 Fine.
 But they, they, they help run the non-profit.
 They do.
 And as I walked around, I realized that like, yeah, you're making movies, but you're also
 building this entity that is trying to find work for people, trying to showcase films
 that otherwise wouldn't be shown.
 Like I didn't realize you were doing all that behind the scenes.
 Right.
 Right.
 Well, I mean, it's really just trying to build community.
 I mean, Paul and Tammy Garnes, Paul is my producer.
 So I produced Selma and Queen Sugar and Tammy is also a producer and she runs all the
 education pieces to Lane Jones who's a president of the company, has been with the company
 I think 15, 16 years, Mercedes Cooper's been with the company 12, 13 years.
 It's about building community and, and saying we can do this outside of the studio system.
 You know, I always tell people if you're looking to do something, find your tribe, find
 your clan, find your group, find your family and build that.
 And, and, and I think that that can extend to community as well.
 We're inviting people in every film that we show on the campuses free.
 We see people coming back again and again, they start to know each other.
 They start to know their neighbors and I think there's really something to that, especially
 in these tense times, convening, being in the same place in person offline, seeing people
 more than once, getting to know people vital.
 Is it true that you have some kind of relationship with Netflix where you can like put whatever
 any film on there that you want?
 I did for about eight years.
 We had a deal with Netflix where we had an output deal.
 So we would choose very hand-picked independent films to go on.
 We did about four years for about eight years.
 We just finished that deal last year.
 What a hell of a deal.
 Yeah.
 It was cool.
 Alright, so I've got some Ava quotes that I want to delve into throughout the episode.
 One is you said this was in a TED talk.
 If your dream only includes you, it's too small.
 Yes.
 It's true.
 It's true.
 I think that kind of defines where you are in life because you're constantly trying to
 bring in other people to give them a shot.
 Yeah.
 I think it's more fun.
 Why be somewhere alone?
 Why dream and work so hard and build?
 Whatever thing is that you want to build to not kind of share in the energy and success of
 it or the failure of it or just the experience of it with other people.
 I know I found that I have more satisfaction when it's not just me standing there holding
 the thing.
 I talked about building.
 You talked about belief.
 I want to go back to Roger.
 The review really gave you, I don't know, more confidence, momentum, is that fair to
 say?
 Because I mean, middle of nowhere in Selma came pretty shortly after that, right?
 So your voice is louder when people start to hear this name Ava DuVernay, right?
 How did you translate that belief from him into opportunity for others?
 Well, I mean, one of the things that he's talking about in the tweet when he says it's
 going to be opening in several markets and he continued to tweet about it.
 He continued to tweet, continued to amplify, talked about it on his radio shows, on the
 TV show.
 And at that point, if people recall, he didn't have his voice because his voice, because
 of the cancer, his voice box had been taken away, his vocal cords.
 So he was tweeting, you know, vorociously and he had a radio show where there was another
 person's voice reading his reviews and he just continued to work.
 But one of the things he's talking about in the film is opening a few markets was through
 a distribution entity that we found that we we were not released by a studio.
 So not only did he review a film that only cost $50,000 from a filmmaker, a black woman
 filmmaker that, you know, had never made a film, but he was also reviewing a film and putting
 energy into a film that didn't have a studio and that's very irregular.
 And so we had put that film out on our own through a distribution idea that I had had called
 a firm, which is all the African American film festivals got together and they all released
 a film in their city the same day, which gave it a national release, the African American
 film festival releasing movement of firm, which became array, which is our organization
 now.
 And that begat the Netflix deal and that's why we're always distributing because I understand
 that it's not just about making a film, it's about connecting the film to an audience.
 And that's something that is a part of what you have to build because it's not just going
 to appear.
 Can I take us down a tangent real quick?
 You introduced me to the name Darren Walker, who's a man who recently ran the Ford Foundation.
 Yes.
 And you told this like almost hard to believe story about being at work and the phone rings
 and the assistant says, Mr. Walker's on the, you're like, okay, I find it, I'll take
 the call.
 He gets all the call.
 You don't know much about who he is or what he does and he says, what do you?
 He says that he saw my film 13th at a film festival and how was I, you know, kind of doing
 my, my community work?
 And I said, well, hey, I don't know who you are in this problem in your business.
 I didn't say that, but I'm thinking who are you?
 And he says, I say, you know, I just, I make things and then I put it into my community
 work.
 He said, yes, but how, how, how's the money coming?
 I said, from what I make and then I do my community programs, he says, you don't have
 a nonprofit.
 I said, no, no.
 I'm afraid of that.
 I don't want to get in the trouble.
 Like, wasn't he snipes or something?
 He's like, first of all, it's like snipes to an nonprofit.
 Secondly, what's wrong with you?
 He said, if I hire someone to consult with you and help you be less afraid of running
 a nonprofit, would you, would you work with them?
 And I said, well, absolutely.
 And he said, and when you do that, and then I can give you some money.
 And I said, he said, actually, let me just give you some money to start and then you
 can have this person.
 And he just, he believed in the community work.
 He saw someone doing work to connect cinema and community and he, and not asking for anything
 and really raised his hand and said, you need to learn that there are organizations that
 will support this work so you can scale it, make it bigger.
 And that's how we have the campus.
 And that's how we're able to show films for free.
 And that's how we're able to have these, these filmmakers be on Netflix and so forth.
 If you want to talk about somebody who believed in you too, Darren Walker, you got a list
 of people.
 Oh, I do.
 Take a moment just to thank Canva for backing this podcast.
 Their support is what makes these conversations possible.
 Canva is guided by a clear idea, build something incredibly valuable and then use it to do
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 to create equal access and opportunity for people all over the world.
 All right, here's another Ava quote, I'm not here to make work that is safe.
 I'm here to make work that moves.
 Oh, okay.
 I don't want to say that one.
 I love how I'm reminding you of what you said before my own thoughts and words.
 Here's another one.
 When you're in spaces, you said this to W Magazine.
 When you're in spaces where you're not always represented, your presence alone is an
 active resistance.
 Oh, yes.
 Very true.
 Very true.
 Well, you know that.
 You know that from going way back.
 I do.
 Yes.
 And another one.
 I didn't grow up thinking I would be a filmmaker.
 I grew up thinking I could be anything.
 I did.
 I did.
 I didn't really feel like I had limitations on it.
 I didn't.
 I didn't.
 It wasn't really an issue or a thought that there was something that I couldn't do.
 I don't think I had, I can do anything mentality.
 I just didn't have a mentality that they're things that I couldn't do.
 I think there's a difference.
 I didn't have an idea of I want to be a homey.
 Hold on.
 Let me sit with that for a second.
 Say that again because that's super powerful.
 I didn't have an idea of what I wanted to do and I can do anything.
 I just had an idea that there's nothing that I can't do.
 That's what I wanted to do.
 What do you attribute that to?
 The women who raised me to the places?
 Yeah, I think so.
 I think the woman who raised me was my mom, my grandmother, and my aunt Denise.
 And then, you know, my father was a huge force in my life.
 But I think a much stronger, strong, silent type.
 I mean, you're in a house with these three powerful black women.
 He was smart enough to be like, okay?
 Keep his mouth shut.
 You know what?
 I'm going to be strong and silent over here in support.
 In these ways.
 But I think all of those incredible people in the community that I grew up and my brothers
 and sisters, there just wasn't an idea that there was something that we would set our
 mind to that we couldn't figure out.
 You were quoted as saying, I am my ancestors wildest dreams and I am my own next step.
 Yes.
 I'm my ancestors wildest dreams is a saying that's in the community that people say.
 I think from there, you know, from their dreaming, we have to be active.
 And we have to actually do something to make them come through the truth.
 They don't just materialize.
 We have to do lean in something.
 I know about you as you are not afraid to share your opinion.
 And I love that because a lot of because a lot of us as we get bigger in our careers,
 I think and I'm going to speak for myself here.
 I have a little bit more caution about what I say because I don't want to, I'm in a different
 place in my career.
 I don't do the news anymore.
 And so, you know, I always tell people, I have a very strong opinion, but I work very hard
 to keep it to myself because it does nothing to help me in the kind of impact work I'm
 trying to do.
 But your films are provocative, like very provocative, in a meaningful, impactful way.
 Well, I'm glad I want people to think for themselves and be able to tell you what I'm
 going to take action and learn and all of those things.
 I think this is a scary time to have opinions that might be, I think it's a scary time to
 have an opinion period, no matter what the opinion is.
 Because we're in such a polarizing time that you cannot have any opinion and there not
 be opposition to it no matter what it is these days.
 And I think it takes a little bit of gumption and gusto to be able to state what you believe
 and to stand in it.
 It's hard.
 It's hard right now.
 People are losing jobs and relationships and all kinds of things around that.
 And so I think everyone has to decide, you know, what's comfortable for them within
 my work.
 I feel that's the place where I should and can and want to be able to say what I feel
 needs to be said.
 Very well said.
 Back to Roger Eber.
 After calling the films, one of the best films I've seen about coming to terms with the
 death of a loved one, he wrote.
 His words reframe the film as intimate and essential, but not small, right?
 Small budget, small film, small filmmaker, smaller, but he didn't portray it that way.
 It was intimate.
 It was essential.
 And for a critic of his stature, to say that was huge.
 I think it is.
 And I think as you say that, it reminds me.
 There's something very catalytic, very, very, very meaningful about being taken seriously.
 Damn right.
 Like when you are speaking with a young person or listening to a friend who's talking to
 you about whatever's going on in their day, just to be able to listen, people know when
 they're being taken seriously.
 When you're tuned in, when you are considering, when you're sensitive to what they're going
 through, when you at least even trying to understand.
 And I think that act of being taken seriously is what he gave me as an armor to go forward.
 I mean, it's a small film.
 It's by a woman who's never made a film.
 There's no studio behind it.
 But to take your time to go to the screening room, actually take your notes, actually go
 home and write it, actually tweet it, actually tweet it again, and again and again.
 That act of being taken seriously gave me wings.
 And that's why I wanted to talk about him on this because there are people who are
 full of adults who've never heard of Roger Eber.
 But for my generation of filmgoers and certainly filmmakers, that was the review that you
 wanted.
 And for that to happen, it really changed the alchemy within me.
 For someone who, at times, I don't like that term, what do people say, not fraud, what
 do people say, posture syndrome, I don't think I really had that.
 But I did, I was very aware that I did not have all the film school tools of my counterparts.
 And for someone to say this film had something in it that's worth, wow, and keep going, was
 a big deal.
 It took me seriously.
 I said a couple of times now that you didn't go to film school, right?
 So you weren't there's a, in a way, I would assume that being a director is something
 you definitely have to go to film school for.
 But yet you've been so super successful.
 So to be clear, did you go find mentors, did you, like how did you learn, how do you become
 Ava DuVernay?
 Because it's not from guessing.
 Wow.
 Well, thank you.
 Many, many of our great filmmakers who went to film school, and they're an equal number
 that did not, and so there are, I mean, you think of, you know, the history of cinema
 before they were film schools, there were people making films, you think about international
 cinema and countries where there are no film schools.
 And so this idea though that in American cinema, especially in American independent cinema
 at a certain time, it was very much the NYU crowd, you know, the, you know, I mean,
 Spike famously, Spike Lee famously, NYU, I mean, we know the schools.
 And I think that, so for me, it was always a little bit, you know, and you take on these
 things, you know, you see the imperfections in yourself more than anyone.
 It was my little, the merit, my little, my thing that I thought, oh, this is what, this
 is what they'll hold against me, or these are all the things I don't know.
 Instead of embracing, wow, you actually have been a publicist for 10 years.
 That's what I'm saying.
 You know, on more sets than most people who've gone to film school, you stood there next
 to Michael Mann.
 You stood there next and watched Steven Spielberg on a set direct.
 You've heard the way they call it action.
 You've watched them block.
 You've seen the great cinematographer set up like you have, you have, you have done something
 through your practical experience and your work experience.
 You know how to talk to actors.
 You know, you know, because you're talking them all the time.
 These are things that you do have, but we always emphasize the things that we don't
 have.
 And here's why I bring it up, because over the course of my career, everything I wanted
 to in some way hide becomes what the whole story is about once you become successful.
 Because when they write a story of success, they, you know what it leads with without going
 to film school and being a publicist and having all these things right.
 Oh, like Jonathan.
 Right.
 That's what the whole damn story is about.
 But yet we run away from it in the beginning because it doesn't, we don't think it makes
 us look.
 Yes.
 It's great for people to hear.
 It's great for people to know that the thing you say it so well, the thing that we are afraid
 of, the thing that we want to hide is really the juicy part of the story.
 Bingo.
 No, no, no.
 A story teller.
 It is.
 Right.
 That me as a storyteller, if someone with this whole podcast, celebrities like you, I said
 to myself and I said to my team, I do not want to sit in a chair and fawn over a celebrity.
 Quite frankly, I don't want to talk about just promoting a movie.
 I want to talk to them about vulnerability and gratitude and shining a light on someone
 else.
 That's why this is a good idea.
 Right?
 How would you have a good idea?
 Another evil quote.
 Here we go, which is perfect for this part of the conversation.
 You said to the Hollywood reporter, if you're in a position to open doors, open the door
 all the way, don't just crack it.
 Mm-hmm.
 Yeah.
 Yeah, for sure.
 And I think there are a lot of people doing that.
 But I also think that in Hollywood, it's an industry that thrives on feeling scarce.
 It's scarcity and elite, and this is an upper echelon, and if you're in TV, you're trying
 to get in film.
 And if you're in film, you're trying to stay in film, and you know, you're in this kind
 of film, but you want to be in an elite film that has an Oscar, and you've got an Oscar
 now.
 You need another one to show that you weren't a fluke.
 It's always this chasing kind of thing.
 In order to do that, in order to win a race, you can't really have someone nipping at your
 hills.
 It's much better if you're out of head.
 And so that creates an environment where, let me look like I might be opening a door
 or say the right things, but not really do it.
 And I just, I go back to the thing.
 It's going to be a lot more fun if you, you know, are surrounded by others who are having
 fun too.
 You know how I stay ahead is not looking over my shoulder.
 It's by looking in the mirror because I get, I literally torpedo myself if I look at
 what other people are doing because I start comparing what I'm doing to them, and it makes
 me unproductive.
 Yeah.
 Well said.
 Looking in the mirror instead of behind you.
 Right.
 And also in the mirror, you can see his behind you technically, but just saying I'm fine.
 I like it.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 Thank you.
 How did Ebert's belief translate into opportunities that you made for others, right?
 How did his belief in the little Ava translate into the Ava empowering today, women directors
 in Queen sugar array indie films on Netflix.
 I think you heard me call you a king maker.
 And I saw that head go like this, like you know what you're doing and it's with intention
 to uplift others.
 Yeah.
 I think I do know what I'm doing, but I, it's never been calculated.
 And I think that the way Mr. Ebert figures into it is, is simply the act of always having
 kind of looked out for the next person.
 I mean, even in stopping on the street and doing this thumbs up photo with the little
 girl outside the Oscars back in the 80s, not to stop.
 Then there were people that didn't stop, you know, but to stop him to do that, to writing
 this piece that he didn't have to write, to continuing to tweet about this piece.
 And then to correspond with me about the piece and help me, you know, do you have a theater
 in Chicago?
 Do you need help?
 You know, to...
 Did you ever get to see him sit with him?
 Yeah.
 Hug him.
 Absolutely.
 Tell me about that.
 I was able to meet him and, you know, we was just very kind and, you know, at the time
 that I was able to meet him, he wasn't able to speak.
 Wow.
 So it was very non-verbal.
 Wow.
 I think out of all of the memories that I have of him, their book ended by the first time
 I interacted with him at the, on this, as a little girl.
 For the last time, when I spoke at his funeral, they're at Chaz Ebert who is a wonderful wife,
 invited me there with a couple of the filmmakers who he really impacted.
 And I had the opportunity to speak a little bit about my experience with him and how that
 review and his ongoing attention really changed my life.
 That was just such an honor.
 But you got to say it to him before you passed?
 I did.
 Oh, he knew.
 I got to e-mail it.
 I got to say it.
 I got to communicate.
 I think he was aware.
 Wow.
 Wow.
 I wonder how after his review, your language shifted in talking about films in general.
 Did it in some way?
 Because this mainstream critic had basically just mainstreamed you?
 Well, it did.
 I mean, it certainly changed.
 It certainly changed the way I talked about that film.
 And that film, you know, changed, changed what we're going to have now.
 And he was confident in talking about the film before his release.
 No.
 So I would send my little pitch and would be told no.
 He says, yes.
 Now I have his review.
 Oh, you know, I went back.
 I was like, so, um, he says it's the best film we ever saw on grief.
 One of the best films we ever saw on grief.
 Just wanted to share this project with you.
 This is the TV version, the radio version in his 10 tweets if you'd like to reconsider
 the pitch.
 Now, I mean, I'm a publicist pitching myself.
 All these people knew me as a publicist.
 So it was always a little embarrassing to me that I had to pitch myself and, um, but I
 tell you, there was another woman who had done a review around the same time as Roger
 named Carrie Ricky out of Philadelphia.
 And I had those two reviews, but it's really the Roger review because his TV show and
 his radio show was national.
 So now it becomes national.
 So now there were critics in places that the film wasn't even opening who said we'll
 review it.
 And, uh, and I was able to book other theaters because of it.
 And because of the success of I will follow, I was able to, in the very next year, we make
 middle of nowhere.
 I made middle of nowhere and I submitted to Sundance.
 And on the eighth try, miraculously, it gets in.
 Now, there was a woman named Shari Frilo, who was a big catalyst for me getting in.
 She's another person that I wanted to make sure I say her name, but I think they were
 all building blocks on top of another.
 And when I look at just the trajectory of being able to go from a person who was 32, who
 had never picked up a camera to being able to, you know, be at the Oscars with the best
 picture nomination for Selma in a very short amount of time.
 I do not see that trajectory happening in the way it did without Roger saying I will
 go see this film when I will write about it.
 I mean, it's, it's a critical turning point.
 All right.
 I got another Ava quote, but before I read it, I want to talk about how you and I met.
 Okay.
 I was in Toronto with our friend Oprah, and she had just thrown, girl, I had the fear.
 I had full mo on over this, your birthday party, your 50th, and it was in Hawaii.
 It was, there were a few, but this was the Hawaii one.
 No, it was the only one.
 Okay.
 And I was like, it was several days long, though.
 I remember seeing the pictures and I was like, Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
 And so I say to Oprah, how was that?
 And before she even talks about how it is, she goes, you should know her.
 You guys would get along well.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Well, honey, I well took that as my opportunity to the slide right into your DMs, and I
 think I said something like Oprah says we should be friends.
 And we take direction.
 Exactly.
 Well for her.
 So we should meet.
 And that's literally how we met.
 That's how we met.
 That's how we met.
 Where is that place that we went to in Echo Park?
 Yeah.
 Because I keep trying to tell my partner the food was sensational, but I don't remember.
 It was a little seafood.
 Yes, it was.
 Yeah.
 I think it's called found oyster.
 I think.
 I'll check.
 It was good.
 We had cream chowder.
 We ate.
 Oh, good.
 So good.
 Okay.
 Okay.
 This is another Ava quote, which I literally wrote while and while around.
 Cinema has the power to rewrite memory.
 When we tell the truth on screen, we make room for healing for sure.
 That kind of gave me the chills.
 Oh, well, it's true though.
 It's true.
 Cinema is an expressive force that changes your energy when you watch.
 And it changes, you know, when you're watching a film, you're watching images that sit side
 by side in your head, memories and movies, right?
 At some point, it starts to, I won't say blur fade, but they start to become because
 the movies you are on a feeling level and you're watching them on a feeling level.
 Yes.
 And the things that you remember, you know, you experience them on a feeling level.
 That's why you remember them.
 I think in our minds, we have these two sets of images, the memory and cinema images
 that we watch photography, all of that for some people with music.
 All of this sits in your head and it starts to create a stew of who you are and how you
 feel.
 I mean, art really does that.
 And so I feel that when you nourish yourself with images, with stories, with music, with
 things that are healthy, now let's say healthy, but that are filled with light.
 Even if it's a dark story, I think some is a film that's filmed with light.
 It's a story about a dark time.
 But there's a triumph within the story that has light in it and the more that we can kind
 of allow the light in, things grow from it and that is, and things bloom.
 And so I really feel like cinema is such a powerful force.
 I know it is because we know cinema has been used for propaganda.
 We know cinema has been used to reinforce the negative things, but also cinema can show
 it's great beauty.
 And so when you watch a movie, you should really be aware of its power.
 You know, when you were watching a movie, you were taking in images into your mind that
 you may be able to say intellectually, I discern that, you know, this John Wick movie that
 where he killed 113 people in four minutes and just kept going, I know that that's just
 an action movie, but I think we'd be remiss not to understand the power of some of the
 things that we allow in.
 You said you were a girl who loved movies, but you didn't like dream of being a filmmaker.
 So I dreamed of doing what I'm doing.
 Have you now just accepted, like, this is what I'm going to do because you become so damn
 successful?
 Or are you doing what you feel like you were put on this earth to do?
 No, I definitely feel like I found my calling and that's why I think it's important for
 people to know.
 And that didn't happen to I was in my 30s.
 Okay.
 That's important to know.
 I think it's really important to people because you have some people who are very fortunate
 like you, who knew really, really early on, I mean, high school, you know, you were on
 your path to doing this, you know, you know, my partner knew what he wanted to do.
 His mom says 11 years old, you know, 11 years old.
 He kind of had this desire for the thing that he loves to do.
 And I think mine didn't come until I was 30 and there are other people who didn't kind
 of, you know, connect with their, their calling, if you will, until even later than that.
 And I think it just proves you can always find it.
 You can all, it's there if it hasn't come for you in your early years.
 But I think what's also important to say is that it's okay if it's not like I always
 knew and it's okay if you kind of walk into it or walk into it.
 Sometimes you will find it by simply trying different doors.
 And for some people, the calling is the trying and maybe there isn't one thing that's
 your thing all the time.
 That's right.
 You know what I mean?
 Everyone doesn't have that.
 But it's the trying.
 It's the checking it out.
 It's the different experiences.
 And I think also the calling doesn't always have to be a profession.
 You know, I mean, there are some people who love to cook for their families, love to
 garden, love to listen, love to, you know, I mean, it's, what is the thing that kind of
 makes your heart beat?
 For me, this is it.
 So I was just about to say the calling is what sets your soul on fire.
 Yes, indeed.
 Yes, indeed.
 That's the call.
 That's it.
 That's the call.
 I could look a lot of different ways.
 And I will say, since we already brought up our friend, she said to me and I'll never
 forget, Oprah said to me, when I see you on television, I realize you were doing exactly
 what God put you on the search to do.
 What a beautiful thing to have said to you.
 I felt that.
 That's incredible.
 Back to Ebert.
 What did you stop doubting about yourself after that review?
 I doubted that I had a filmmaker's voice.
 I doubted that my story about me and my aunt, you know, was interesting enough.
 Interesting enough to be a film that other people watch.
 I said, since come to know that I am not that unique, that the thing that I like, no
 one else will like.
 Really?
 I'm not so unique.
 That's something that I like, no one else will like.
 I've come to know.
 In other words, it's not all about you, Boo.
 I mean, Charles, if I like it, there's going to be somebody else that there's like it,
 because I'm not, you know what I mean, I'm not so unique that I like things that no
 one else in the world likes.
 If I move by this, I tell people all the time, if you're moved by it, someone else,
 now it's going to be, you know, Marvel level people going to see it.
 You know, but make your little films, tell your small stories, you know, whisper your
 dreams.
 So how did you start showing up differently after that review?
 Was it just by more confidence?
 Yeah, absolutely.
 And more confidence and more belief that, oh, my voice, like this story, I can do this.
 My story about a black woman in her late 20s who nurses her aunt in the last two years
 before she passes away and moves out of a house resonates with a 60 plus year old man in
 Chicago who is dealing with his own, you know, end of life issues, his own mortality.
 And he can sit there and say, I see myself in this and I feel connected to it.
 Just the opposite we were as people in age and gender and background and all of that.
 But around grief, it's the great humanizing force.
 And we, you know, I don't think there's anything that helps people create a more level playing
 field when it comes to politics or class than to talk about a personal loss, a loss of
 a loved one because at that point, everything else trips away and the grief is shared.
 And we felt, we've all felt it and we know what that is.
 And so I think that just that idea that he could see himself in that film from a person
 that was so different from him showed me that, oh, I could reach him.
 I can reach other people didn't need to know you were going to do the film.
 No.
 Well, how long after she died did you decide to do it?
 I did not make a film until after she passed away, but I was writing.
 I wrote middle of nowhere while she was alive.
 And so I was starting to dabble and kind of think about things, but I never made anything
 that she saw.
 I think she's up there pulling some strings and making things happen.
 So I think that she sees everything that she has kids.
 She didn't.
 Were you like a daughter to her?
 I was.
 Me and my two sisters and my two brothers.
 You now sit where other set in terms of you can amplify a project with one decision,
 right?
 Like you are now in a place where somebody can say, I've literally had someone say to
 me, do you think you could get even to Renee to watch this film?
 That's now where you are.
 So in terms of paying it forward, name a filmmaker, you're championing right now and why?
 Wow.
 That's tough.
 That's so hard, David, because if I say one person, it's an example.
 Don't ask me.
 I will say that there is a filmmaker that I met.
 There's a woman that I met.
 So last year I made a film called Origin and we took that film around the world and
 was in Geneva, Switzerland on an invitation to do a retrospective of some of my films
 there in a chance to show origin in Switzerland.
 So we go and whenever you go to a film festival, they assign you to a person who will kind of
 take you around, make sure you get to the hotel, get to the screenings, find food.
 So the woman who assigned to me in Geneva, Switzerland was a young black woman.
 I was like, they found out only where they get you, where they find you, okay?
 But she was a bright, shipper, young woman, a sister who took such great care of my colleague
 Indian, I who were there.
 And we loved her, she, at one point I said, take me, is there a black community here?
 She said, actually there is, I'll take you to a few blocks we have.
 And so we went and she took me around and she said, you know, my dream is to be a filmmaker.
 I said, well, what do you do for a living?
 She says, I'm a lawyer.
 I said, you're a lawyer, but you want to be a filmmaker?
 She said, yes.
 I said, well, have you ever decided to actually do that?
 Look me up.
 Let me know what you do.
 Six months later, she calls.
 And she says, I took what you said to heart.
 And I have enrolled in a program at UCLA.
 I said, I love an L.I., she's like, I know.
 And I just want to let you know that I'm doing this and that what you said mattered.
 And she is now on staff at Array.
 Stop it.
 She works with us at Array.
 She finished her UCLA program and she's working on the next one.
 That's kind of like Oprah bringing some of the girls from South Africa from school here
 to L.A. to pursue their dream.
 Absolutely.
 So she's doing everything.
 So her name is Leia.
 And she's an incredible aspiring filmmaker.
 Shout out to Leia.
 Before I get to my next e-book question, I want to ask a very superficial question.
 Who dresses you?
 Because every time I see a damn outfit of you somewhere around the world promoting a
 movie, I'm like, who is dressing like that because she is killing it.
 I'm glad you feel that way.
 It's a very lovely woman named Katie.
 Shout out to Katie.
 Katie.
 Katie Poffshevher.
 Hey, me.
 Keeps me together.
 Keeps the way snatched, David.
 Gotta keep the way snatched.
 But also, I don't like to show my arms.
 So you will never see me in anything or the arms are short.
 I didn't know that.
 See, stylist has to know she doesn't like this.
 She does like this.
 He likes this.
 He likes this.
 I'm glad to make you seem like normal that all your deficiencies you're given.
 That you were a publicist.
 Are you your own now?
 Or do you hire someone to do that for you?
 We take care of all my publicity in house pretty much, okay.
 Yeah, except when we have a big movie.
 We hire a couple of people that we love.
 So I'm going to be hiring a publicist so I want to know from you.
 I have one.
 Who's great.
 Okay, sure.
 I'll take a recommendation.
 Let's India the back laugh at the relationship.
 Voluntarily people.
 What is a quality in a publicist that you should look for or and or demand?
 First of all, can I just tell you I love being a publicist so much?
 Did you?
 If I was not making three movies right now, I would say, David, can I just do it for you?
 For sure.
 Don't tell me we're the good time, girl.
 I have done that before for friends.
 You know what?
 I'm just going to handle this campaign for you real quick.
 Stop it.
 Well, let me just call this personal.
 We just put this together because I loved it so much.
 Okay, but what should I look for in a publicist?
 Creativity.
 Creativity.
 It's someone that's going to look at the show, look at you and figure out the angles
 that are the untraditional angles, the ways to really, you know, make sure that what you
 want to say is express not just of the usual suspects, creativity.
 It's not, it's not, it's not, here's the list and call these people in book it.
 It is a charisma, a convincing, a creativity and the way it's pitched in soul.
 And what you're pitching and what you're pitching.
 The way you're pitching it and making sure that by the time you get off the phone with
 this person there, you're like, I've got to do this.
 And in order to do that, you have to be creative because these bookers and producers have
 art at all.
 Right.
 And most of the time what they're not hearing is any kind of passion or creativity.
 I watched these last three shows that you did and you know what you could, you know what
 really worked this, my client has this or, you know, just just finding that way to get
 it in there.
 That's good.
 We're going to find you the right person.
 Back to Ebert.
 Level belief.
 Look like to you today.
 You know, people going out on a limb for people.
 I mean, I can't say that he was risking anything.
 He was so big at that time.
 But I think certainly doing the extra thing for someone that really doesn't have anything
 to give you back.
 I mean, a lot of times, you know, I'll critic my say, I'm going to do this film that
 I may not want to do or a journalist might say, I'll do it because I, you know, the studio
 is big and they'll give me the next Tom Cruise film or I'll get the exclusive on this
 and this, all this bartering and politicking about what stories get done and which one
 stone.
 And I think if you take it out of the realm of the press, ultimately, there was nothing
 he could get from doing that.
 I mean, there was nothing that was going to come.
 There was no studio that was going to give him, there was, there was not going to be
 a big ads splashed on Sunset Boulevard with his quote, I mean, he didn't even know
 if there was going to be a poster for this thing.
 You know what I mean?
 Like, it was just so small, but he did it anyway.
 And I think that's, that's what I would say is, but in the same way, he wasn't doing
 you a favor.
 No, I don't think so.
 And you know by how he responded, it was just another book of business.
 That's right.
 That's right.
 But which makes it more meaningful.
 That's right.
 But because he took it seriously, and I really think if you're going to do something for
 someone and you're going to give it yourself, don't do people favors.
 Take them seriously.
 You hear that?
 Don't feel like, you know, don't, people shouldn't feel like they're owing.
 You shouldn't feel burdened.
 If you want to feel that way, don't do it.
 You know what I mean?
 But if you're going to do it, do it.
 Give it your all and take them seriously.
 A paying client or the client that you take pro bono should have the same.
 You know what I mean?
 The same weight.
 If you say you're going to do it, do it.
 So to that point, when you open a door, right?
 When you open a door for someone, how do you make sure someone actually walks through
 it?
 Well, you have to know that I've had a lot of, and I've talked with it.
 You know where I'm going with that?
 Oh, about this.
 No.
 Tell me.
 Well, how do you make, I mean, a lot of times people will open a door, but there's not
 a whole lot of help after that.
 Right.
 It's true.
 But I think there's also a point where you have to make sure that people can't actually
 walk through it in an order to do that.
 Fair enough.
 You have to open it wide enough.
 Make sure that they have the support to walk through, but they do have to walk through
 on their own.
 Like I've seen people who I've invited to do things or, I don't know, if you say open
 a door for that, that I can't get you over the threshold.
 Right.
 They didn't step up.
 You've got to step up.
 Fair.
 Yeah.
 And I think that when you see someone doing that, it makes you, but you've had the door open,
 right?
 The metaphorical phone call, but it's like there was really nothing after that.
 So it was like a boom, but then it kind of pitted out, right?
 So I always say find your people who will walk you, who will open the door, but then help
 you and check on you on the other side.
 Yeah.
 I think so.
 Yeah.
 That's nice when it happens.
 By the way, there's so many people who are making their way without an open door that
 even if you get the sliver, you take it and you take it and you run through it.
 And even if it's just a crack, right, open more, leave it more open for the next person.
 If you could speak to the version of yourself before the review, before the review, what would
 you tell her?
 Calm down.
 If he doesn't, if he doesn't write back, it's going to be okay.
 If he doesn't take your pitches anymore, you know, it was a good run.
 And you know, and you're not going to be making the doing publicity for very much longer
 anyway, because you're going to be a publicist and you're going to be okay, just breathe,
 and press send on this email and hope it turns out okay.
 Because I had a lot of anxiety about even asking him to do it.
 I think that's a big lesson as well.
 He just had to take the risk to ask for help if you need it and to do it in a way that
 doesn't make people feel burdened.
 But that is offering, you know, presenting a space where they can offer their support.
 I think that's a big thing.
 You know, because a lot of people, I am off put sometimes by the way that people ask.
 Oh, tell me more about that.
 For thanks.
 That's interesting.
 You know, with a sense of entitlement, or you should do this, or a little too cavalier.
 I don't like it.
 I prefer acknowledge that you are asking someone to take time out of their day or do something
 that they don't have to do, but that should be acknowledged.
 So frame it for me.
 How do you prefer people ask something as opposed to how they, as opposed to how they
 might?
 I like to lead with what you're already doing.
 Okay.
 Okay.
 You know, recognize what I do.
 Okay.
 Tell me what you're doing.
 Okay.
 I can't make this happen for you if you're not doing the work.
 On Queen Sugar, all of those women who were chosen to direct all of those episodes.
 I handpicked each one, chose from people who are already doing.
 People want to get on a moving train, right?
 If I have a choice, and I'm at the station, there are two trains.
 And there's one that's going now, but it's going to be bumpy, and we're going to have
 to go through some snow, and there's no food on that train, but it's leaving now.
 Or this one that I can wait on the track for two more days, and it's going to be plush
 when I get there.
 I'm getting on, and I'm getting out of here, because I'm going to be home by the time you're
 leaving.
 People want to get on a moving train.
 What are you already doing?
 I can't start you from a stop.
 I can push you forward and get you going a little bit faster, but I think it's really,
 in this day and age, especially in our industry, it's a lot of help me be like you
 right now.
 You know?
 And I really want to know, what are you doing?
 I have people come with me all the time.
 Can I audition for you?
 I'll be like, will do you study?
 Study.
 I said, are you studying acting?
 Well, no, I just have natural talent.
 I said, are you reading any books?
 Well, no, I'm not reading books.
 What are you watching?
 Okay, but you don't like books.
 Maybe you don't have a teacher.
 What are you watching?
 Who do you like?
 How are you bringing down the performance?
 If you can't tell me none of that, then none of you can't audition for me.
 What are you doing?
 How are you bringing to this?
 And so I think whether it's an audition, whether it's our industry, whether it's whatever
 it is that you want someone to, remember when you ask of someone, it's help.
 You're asking them to join you on your journey.
 So you should be on your way somehow and that is good.
 Think about it.
 Like that's some helpful stuff you just dropped right there because that's attractive.
 There was one more Ava quote that, I mean, I circled it and I was like, I was looking
 at him like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and it is this one.
 You can lead with kindness and still demand excellence.
 How do you do that?
 Because some people struggle with that.
 Yeah, I think I struggle with that.
 I mean, I try to, I feel like I have a kind heart, but I have a sharp manner.
 And so I have, I'd say I have an exacting manner.
 So I think that for some people who may not be used to the way our industry works, you
 know, we talk fast, we talk kind of sharp, like we get things done.
 But there's a, it's all towards the end of making something great and it's all towards
 trying to have respect for the other person.
 And I think, I think kindness, I've heard people say things that sound syrupy and sweet,
 but they're not kind, you know, just because it's, it's saying being said softly or even
 if it's being said, doesn't mean that anything's actually going to happen.
 I think there are a lot of veils around our words and the way that we, what we say and
 what we do.
 And so I think my kindness really comes from what I do.
 I may say it in a bit of a clip sharp way, but my intention is always to help, to open
 up a space, to try to include more people.
 And I would just warn people to just because something sounds good, doesn't mean it's
 good.
 Sometimes the thing that sounds a little more rough around the edges like, don't come
 to me unless you're already doing something, right?
 That's a little sharp.
 But underneath it is, if you're doing something, you come to me, I'm about to get you through
 this door.
 Right?
 And so just be aware of that idea of kindness because some people use it as a disguise.
 Like you said, some people will open the door only halfway, but that's not kind.
 You know, open it and give people what they need to come through.
 I'm saying you have to have some velocity to get to the door, but, you know, really that
 idea of kindness, it is, it is a tricky space.
 And I think true kindness is just a desire to not be sitting at the top alone or to not
 be sitting anywhere alone to make sure that other people are being treated well, to see
 someone, say something to someone and know it's not right and do something.
 And you're going to do something, may not be, get up there and fight with the person who
 did the wrong thing, but just to put the hand on the person who's been injured or just
 to check in the next day, there's so many things ways we can be kind, if you're really
 being kind.
 It's hard to truly be kind, it's much easier to sound kind.
 That was profound.
 May I end by saying it is a pleasure to know you.
 I'm so glad we took Oprah's advice and got to know each other.
 I thank you for reaching out on her instruction.
 I think you are a singular individual, I don't know anyone like you.
 I so enjoyed and I hope on this show, somehow you get to tell your story, ever need somebody
 to come and interview you, count on me, but I think you're in the exact right place.
 I feel like you're an independent voice and I hope that this grows for you.
 I think this is the first show of many and I'm glad I got to be around for the beginning.
 What a gift.
 What a gift.
 Eva DuVernay, ladies and gentlemen.
 I thought you might want to know, but this podcast is at the heart of a company I founded
 called DuGoodCrew.
 I've spent 25 years telling stories, it used to be the bad news and now I want to focus
 on the good news, the everyday heroes who are doing extraordinary things.
 You can join us.
 We do live events, but we also have a newsletter.
 It's free.
 We'll sign up for it by going to www.V DuGoodCrew.com.
 This show was created by me, David Begnau.
 Our executive producers are Ellen Rockamora and Olivier Delphaus.
 Our associate producer is Griffin Hamilton, our booker is Sully Block.
 Director of photography is Foster Parks.
 Our theme music was created by Slippstream, post-production and edit done by Longwave Digital.
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