Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep10 - Challenges and Frustration. How much is too much?

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is a Puppy Culture potluck

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podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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Today's question
comes to us from the Puppy Culture

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Discussion group,
and it is a breeder writing in,

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but it raises a question that,

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it's important to any puppy or dog owner.

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Before I read you the question,
I just want to position it for you.

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The question refers
to the barrier challenge.

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And what that is, is
we take a piece of exercise

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pen, so it's just like a wire fence
basically.

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It's a little two foot
by two foot piece of wire fence.

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And we set that up with the food
dish on one side

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and we put the puppy on the other side
and we put the food dish

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right near the edge of that two foot

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wire fence
so that the puppy, it's not too hard.

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The puppy can just go around it
and get to the food dish.

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And it's just a very basic

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first problem
solving exercise for puppies.

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So here's the question

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How much frustration should a puppy have

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before changing the game
a little, to make the session successful.

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We did the Barrier Challenge
for the first time today.

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Some of the pups went right around

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and some took longer.

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Then came Klaus.

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Klaus is the runt tube fed baby.

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So whining for resources
is a tad bit of a habit for him.

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During the approaching of the barrier,
he was continually going to the wrong side

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to a closed section, and after 2 minutes

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I placed him back
where I first placed him.

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I had to do this a few times.

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At the three minute mark

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I pulled the food bowl,
so a small portion went beyond the barrier

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and then placed him back
at the starting point again.

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He was able to
complete the challenge then.

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Should I have waited him out?

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I'm second guessing myself.

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So I can answer this in one sentence.

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To paraphrase Maria Montessori,

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never help a puppy with a task

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at which he feels he can succeed.

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Which is the answer, except

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how do you know if a puppy feels
he can succeed at a task?

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The short answer is if he's still trying,

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he's thinking he might still succeed.

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Unfortunately,

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that's not the most helpful metric,

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because the only way...

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if he's still trying, yes,
he still thinks he can succeed.

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But you can't,
you don't know if he ultimately

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is going to be able to succeed
until he gives up.

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Right? Either he succeeds or he gives up.

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So what we really want to do
when we're setting up any challenge

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for these puppies or your dog is
you want to set up the challenge

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so that you can say with the utmost
certainty the puppy can succeed.

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The puppy thinks he can succeed
and in fact can succeed.

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Why, though, why is it so important
that the puppy be able to succeed

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without you modifying the exercise?

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Because

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if you let

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them try, until they feel it's hopeless

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and they can't succeed,

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you have no good options.

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You could help the puppy. Okay.

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If the puppy gives up like you know,
the puppy no longer feels he can succeed.

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You can go in and help him
and then you're teaching him.

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If I give up, I get bailed out.

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That is the opposite of what
we want to teach these puppies, okay?

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But then what's your other alternative
at that point?

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Let them fail.

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But that only teaches them
that trying is hopeless.

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So what this all kind of swirls down to is
you have to make it easy enough

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that you're sure
they can do it on their own

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The first time.

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If there is one thing that I consistently
see breeders getting wrong

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with any of the Puppy Culture
protocols, it's that across the board

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they try and make them too
hard out of the box.

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They try and make it too difficult
for their puppies.

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We are conditioning the puppies.

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We're not evaluating the puppies.

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This is teaching, not testing.

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The goal with any of these exercises

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is to instill this small, quiet

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word in the puppies brain

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that says challenges

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are surmountable.

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Why do we care to instill this word in
the puppies brain?

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Because,

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when the puppy is frustrated

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in life,
which he is going to be frustrated,

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he will be more likely to problem

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solve and less likely to react

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if he has that problem solving

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success in his tool kit.

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He'll be more likely to think about things
and less likely

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to have big feelings about things.

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And this is the most important
part of this.

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I know it's difficult to believe,

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but it only takes
the most infinitesimal challenge

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to get this concept across to the puppy.

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The puppy does not need to climb
mountains.

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The puppy does not need to navigate
hay mazes.

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The puppy just needs
the smallest challenge

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and he needs to be successful
at that challenge on his own.

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Thus you can never go wrong
by making a challenge too easy,

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but you will always go

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wrong by making it too hard.

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So let me ask you another question then.

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What's
so bad about making the problem easier

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if the puppy seems to be struggling?

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So, you know, you're in there, you see,
I don't think this puppy's getting it.

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Let me. I'll make it a little easier.

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What we want to avoid

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is making the problem easier
while the puppies struggling,

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because then the puppy is learning
how to train you

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to lower your criteria.

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I mean, when I used to do dog training

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seminars, I encountered this all the time

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or every seminar,
I would have a student approach me

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confidentially, say,
you know, my dog really is...

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can't do free shaping.

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He gets stressed, my dog gets stressed.

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And and I would ask them,
what does your dog do?

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And inevitably it was, well,

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you know, he'll try two things
and then he'll start barking at me.

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So you

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know, I would have the student out
and I would

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have them try and free shape something.

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And as the student said,

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the dog would do throw out two behaviors
and then just bark and give up.

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And the owner would say,
You see? He stressed.

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I said, Well, give me give me the clicker
and the food.

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I would take that dog.

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He would bark at me twice, look at me,
and then just go solve the problem.

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And I would always tell the people it's
not that I'm a better dog

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trainer than you, it's that your dog
has trained you to lower criteria.

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Your dog, I mean, it's not like your dog
is stressed or doing something wrong.

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Your dog thinks this is what we do.

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I mean, I but I try a couple of things.

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If I don't get it right,
right away, I bark.

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You make it easier for me.

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End of story. This is what we do.

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So this is sort of why I think

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even though this is a breeder question
about a specific kind

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of breeder protocol, it's
really an important concept for everyone.

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Okay?

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Is that whenever you're setting up

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a training session
or a challenge or a protocol,

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you always want to be staying in a place
where you really think the puppy

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or the dog is going to be successful
because you can always make it harder.

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But if you, if you've gone over the limit
and you've made it too hard,

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you have no good options.

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So above all else,
you want to set a criteria

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and you want to stick to it
because it's a fundamental part

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of training success
and a key principle for both

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you and the puppy.

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So circling back to the original question

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before I directly answer what I think
she should

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or shouldn't have done in the situation
she found herself in.

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To me, for most puppies
there is zero wrong

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with starting with the food dish
half way outside the edge of the barrier

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or even, you know, maybe just a little bit
in inside the barrier.

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So in other words,
there's no, you'll never go wrong starting

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where she ended, which is having the dish
sticking out the side.

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Listen, I know in Puppy Culture,
the bull terrier puppies,

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I didn't start it that easy, but,
you know, bull terriers,

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I found out in the subsequent years,
you know what I mean?

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Behaviorally,
they're extremely persistent.

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Most breeds are not as persistent
as bull terriers are.

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Most breeds are not as

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committed to

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problem solving as bull terriers are.

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So in sort of a way, the puppies in Puppy
Culture are a little bit

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of fake news for a lot of breeds
because it's just it's,

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what seems very effortless for the bull
terrier puppies

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might be difficult
for a less persistent breed.

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So again,

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my direct question to this is
I would advise people just to always start

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with that dish sticking a little bit out,
just a little bit out.

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They're not going to
you're not going to mess up your puppy.

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You'll do zero harm
by setting it up that way.

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And you can go wrong in
oh so many ways otherwise.

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So just make it easy for the puppy.

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You can always make it harder
on the next round.

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You know, here's the thing about this.

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Any time you set up

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a training session or a protocol,
you're bidding, right?

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You're bidding on what you think
that puppy can do on on

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what the sweet spot is between,

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you know, enough challenge
and the dog's going to give up.

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So if at any time

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it just doesn't look to you like that
puppy is zeroing in on it,

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I want my puppies to be able to solve

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any challenge within the first 60 seconds.

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And honestly,
if they're not sort of closing in on it

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in 30 seconds,
I don't think I've set it up right.

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Okay.

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But when you get to that point,

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I mean, you just have to take your lumps
and help the puppy, okay?

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It's not you're not going
to fix it now. You bid wrong.

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And for myself at

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this age, I would always prefer

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that they do solve the challenge,
even if I have to step in and help them

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because I feel like the puppies
at this age are very behaviorally honest.

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And if they've given up, then it's truly

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in insoluble problem for them.

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So it's the right thing
to do to help at that point.

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But you as a trainer, because that's
what you are when you're doing this.

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Okay.

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I mean, some dog breeders are like
the last Renaissance people

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because you have to be all things,
you know, you have to be

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a veterinary nurse, a midwife, a trainer,
you know, a nutritionist.

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You have to do it all, right.
And here you are.

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You have your trainer hat on.

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And as a trainer, you have to learn from
that and lower your criteria in the future

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because the puppies do learn very quickly

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that, oh, if I quit, she'll help me
or he'll help me.

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So, now
I want everyone to take a deep breath

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because now I probably
have you all in a stew about getting it

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just right
and you're going to mess up your puppy.

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And what if you get it wrong?
And here's what I'm going to tell you.

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You are

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going to make mistakes.

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You are not a machine
and your puppies aren't computers.

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But over time
you will become more accurate

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about predicting
appropriate levels of challenge.

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Do not stress when you make a mistake.

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Mistakes are very valuable parts of life.

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Savor them because they are the absolute

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best source of new
and important information.

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If you are not making mistakes,
you're not getting any better.

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Embrace your mistakes.

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Learn from them, move on.

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Your puppies are going to do just fine.

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So back to the original poster's

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direct question
and I can't give a specific time length.

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Okay.

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That you should wait to see if your puppy
is struggling and going to get it or not.

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There's a lot of sort of subjective
just watching them and seeing

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if you feel
like they're zeroing in on it or not.

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But for sure, 3 minutes is too long.

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Without a doubt.

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3 minutes is too long.

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In this case, great news.

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This puppy has amazing grit because
that puppy tried for three whole minutes.

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So that that's great.

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And she also great news.

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She stepped in before the puppy gave up.

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But again, just as a rule of thumb,
I like my puppies to be able

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to solve any problem within 60 seconds.

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And I actually have become more
conservative with this over the years.

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As I mentioned, when I made Puppy Culture,
I didn't know.

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I don't think any of us really knew
as much as we do now

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about the amazing diversity
in breeds and developmental periods.

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I mean, I knew that they differed,
but in the years since, puppy

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culture has come out just to throw out
two studies that have come out,

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one compared three breeds and found

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a 16 day average difference

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in when those breeds of puppies on

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average had their initial fear response.

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So you had Cavalier,
I'm sorry, you had German Shepherds

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having their fear response,
you know, at a certain time.

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And the Cavalier King Charles spaniels,
I mean, not on average

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having their initial fear
response until 16 days later.

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Similarly, another study that came out

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found that 95% of German Shepherd puppies

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had a fear response and initial fear
response by five weeks old and only 5%

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of Labrador Retrievers had an initial fear
response at five weeks old.

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So, you know, this
just gives you a feeling

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for the kind of variability
that that's out there.

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So if you
if you're looking at Puppy Culture

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and you're saying, well, you know,
my puppies aren't going around the barrier

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as fast as as the Puppy Culture puppies,
I mean, you just have to remember

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bull terriers
have almost psychotic determination

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and I tend to set my challenges
maybe a little bit higher

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and maybe let my puppies
try a little bit longer

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than perhaps
would be appropriate for most breeds.

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But as I said, even I have become more
conservative over the years because I just

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I haven't found the downside
to making it easier for them.

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Once you've done enough litters,

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you're going to become very intuitive
about how to set up these challenges.

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But, you know, in the meantime

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you have to do a lot of litters
to get to that point

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and you want to be successful
with those litters.

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So if you're not certain, okay,
if you're not,

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if you don't have that good feeling
and frame of reference to know

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what is an appropriate challenge
for any given puppy, take whatever

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challenge you think might be appropriate
and just cut it in half.

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Just cut it right in half.

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If you think you could put the dish
four inches in on the other side

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of the barrier for the barrier challenge,
put it in two inches.

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If you think you could do two inches,
let that bowl be halfway out.

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If you're doing a puppy party
and you're setting up your equipment

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and you think, yeah, it's six inches,
the high dog walk would be about right,

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do three. Okay.

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If you think that a teeter on a hard

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surface, a little wobble board on a hard
surface is good.

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Put it on a rug and put a towel under it.

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You cannot go wrong by making it too easy,

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but you can go very wrong
by making it too hard.

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There's just no downside
to making it easier.

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So if you are not certain, cut

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whatever you think that challenge
could be in half.

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Your puppies will get all the benefits
with none of the downside risks.

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If you enjoyed this podcast,

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you'll love our breeder
course at madcapuniversity.com.

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If you're a puppy owner,
we have a puppy course

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00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,560
for you at madcapuniversity.com.

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If you want to get started
with puppy culture,

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check out our bundles at puppyculture.com.

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Thanks for listening.

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Bye bye.