Episode 18: Denise Fenzi Interview, Part 2

Hey everybody, welcome to the Canine Connection
podcast. In today's episode, we are going to
continue the conversation I had with Denise Fenzi,
which we started in the prior episode. Thanks
again so much to Denise for sharing her time
with us. And I hope you guys enjoy the rest of
the conversation. You were going to tell about
Rekha. You mentioned that at the beginning. Do
you even remember? I don't. You said there's
a story there. Oh, you want to hear the story?
It's kind of terrible. I don't know. You told
me there was a story. Yeah. So Rekha, super drivey,
fun dog. but I didn't really socialize her. Like
I didn't let her look around. I just, I took
her a lot of places, but I made her work, work,
work, always working. And that was fine because
she liked to work. But she really didn't see
stuff. And when she was about 21 months old,
I took her to her first AKC trial. She had already
titled in IGP. So I'm like, oh, those should
be fine. But she felt a little flat and I didn't
pay attention. Boy, I wouldn't make that mistake
now, but I sure did then. She didn't feel very
good. And we'd get to the ring and she wasn't
even that interested in like playing, which is
huge for her. And I decided to show anyway, cause
I'm being mindless. And she looked at the judge
and the judge was a big guy with a trench coat
and a hat. And my dog went, Oh my God. And the,
the thing that the story came from somewhere
else, but one thing I learned from that is socialization
means looking at things, not distracting your
dog with a toy. Cause then she looked back at
me like, well, just give me my toy and it'll
be all right. And I'm like, well, honey, unfortunately
I don't actually have your toy. So, and she ended
up healing backwards for part of that because
she was nervous about him. So she literally turned
around to watch him. And then on the recall,
she got to front and she turned around to watch
the judge. Just if anybody cares to know, you
can qualify when your dog does these things.
She did indeed qualify. But I was so spooked
and so stressed. And I learned a lot after that
about socialization and making sure dogs feel
comfortable in a space. You know, that's where
I really got a lot of my ideas about engagement
and making sure that dogs properly acclimate
before you ask them to do things. Make sure.
that they're ready. Don't beg. Don't use toys
to pull it out of them. Let them let you know,
okay, I'm ready now. Now I can do things. And
when she was, gosh, she must've been three and
a half or four. It was like two years later.
I was like, well, I got to go back eventually.
Didn't want to, but I have to go back eventually.
And I took her to a show and she immediately
started to pull the grass out and didn't want
her ball. And it was like, Oh my God, here we
go again. And, but now I had vowed, I had been
talking to a friend a lot as I worked through
this process. And I had said, I will not take
her in the ring. If she's not, if she doesn't
want to be there, we're not doing this. I'll
just pull. So there's like, I don't know, a few
dogs in front of me or whatever. And all she
wants to do is rip up the grass. And every once
in a while I'd offer her a toy and she'd be like,
no, thank you. And I was like, don't beg. Don't
just wait. It's if I have to pull, I have to
pull. And then at some point she's like. All
right, I'm done. I'm ready. And she looks up
at me. She goes, let's do it. I'm like, really?
She's like, yeah, let's do it. All right. Really?
You sure? She's like, absolutely. So I gave her
her ball and she's like, yeah, no, I'm ready
to go. So we went in the ring and she did very
well. So she got 199 and a half and she won that
trial. And there was two trials in one day. That's
very well. So I went to the next trial. She got
199 and a half. She won that trial. Then there
was a runoff for high end trial. She won that.
She won everything. So two weeks later. I had,
I, because I did get a leg the first time she
now had her CD. So I moved her up to open for
the next trial. I show up on the trial grounds
and she starts pulling out the grass and I'm
like, awesome. It worked out really well for
us. So she still did, she didn't do quite as
well, but she did very, very well anyway. And
that dog ended up becoming an obedience champion,
uh, you know, a reasonable amount of time later,
but. One of the most important things I learned
with that dog was let the dog opt in, make sure
the dog wants to be there. Because if it's in
the dog and they feel good, you'll get great
results. I think most of us, we are able to get
the work into the dog. The dog knows in pristine
conditions what we want. But getting it back
out again in complex circumstances, that's a
whole different thing. To me, that's where the
challenge lies, especially if you're starting
with a more talented type of a dog, you know,
that already brings a lot to the table. But man,
getting what you get in your backyard in the
ring, that's just like, that's such a space.
That's my holy grail. It's such a space. With
every dog. Like, that's why I train. That's why
I actually compete because I don't really, believe
it or not, love competing that much. Like you
said, teaching them the behaviors in my yard,
to me, that's not the hard part. Getting the
same dog in the room. I mean, most people in
obedience, they're just like, well, yeah, of
course they're stressed out. Like they all are.
I'm like, yeah, but that's not what I want. I
want my dog. I want a happy dog. I want a dog
that is relatively relaxed. And I want the same
dog in the ring that I have in my yard. Yes.
I've never had it, but I sure hope I get it someday,
but I really, um, I'm the same. You didn't have
it with her. Isn't, isn't she the one I saw you
in long beach with? Rega? Yeah. Yes. That wasn't
her. And you know what? I'm glad you mentioned
that because I remember exactly. You were coming
out of a room and I was passing you and you stopped
me and you said, I just want to tell you that
I really like watching you work your dog. You
made my day. You made my week. You made my year.
I told everybody, I told anybody who would even
listen that you said something to me and that
you liked my dog and how I worked with my dog.
Oh my God. It was like. The heavens opened up
and the angel spoke to me. It was amazing. Well,
I have to tell you, I, I think that what I want
to say, that was my first year there. Do you
remember what year it was? It wasn't your first
year because you had won with Tyler a year before.
Well, I do remember that. Well, I remember the
first year I went, cause this was like, kind
of like. I don't even know if YouTube was around
then or not. Like I'd never been into an NOC.
I was brand new. I was new to the sport. And
the NOC was in California. So like all we had
back then was like, I can't remember the magazine,
maybe front and finish or the, I don't know.
You just read about people. But like, I didn't
know what their dogs were look like or work like.
And. I went over there thinking, oh, this is
going to be amazing. I'm going to see all these
like amazing working dogs. Like I was like starstruck.
I was so excited. And much to my dismay, most
of the dogs were not animated. Like they were
very workmanlike or they weren't happy at all.
Or, you know, they weren't, they just didn't
look happy. They weren't. a pleasure to watch,
you know? Um, and so she really stuck out because
like the, I just saw her in a few rings and I
was like, Oh, well, I don't know who that is,
but that dog's happy. Yay. Yeah. And you know,
she was, she was a tricky dog to get to her arch
and she did not have her arch at that. But at
some point, Rekha really wanted her toys in the
ring. And when she realized she wasn't going
to get them, it was a big deal. It took so much
of the sparkle out. And we went through that
before the NOI. And what I ended up doing with
her is I took all toys and all food out of training
from the point she was at about 50 points until
she finished. And what I did was ring objects
were all she got. If you retrieved, I would throw
your dumbbell. That was your reward. And I would
tell her that. So if the exercise before the
retrieve on the flat was healing and the judge
was bringing me the dumbbell, I would tell her
that was excellent. Let's get your let's get
your dumbbell, which was perfect because it almost
looked to the dog like I was rewarding her in
the ring for her choices. But I mean, you know,
the judge is going to bring you that dumbbell
twice and open. And in utility, you're going
to get the glove and you're going to get the
articles. And so outside the ring, I remember
one person saying, you have the weirdest warmup
I have ever seen, but it works for you. And that's
because I was like taking her dumbbell and hiding
it behind the garbage can of stuff or on my body
and having her find it. So with that dog, I made
it about the ring objects themselves. I never
got the sparkle back that I had when I had a
ball in my pocket, but it was good enough. I
mean, we went through a dip and then I was, she
was a high scoring dog and she was, let's say
happy enough. I don't need my dog to love competing
as much as they like training, but I can't have
them unhappy. So there's a lot of territory between
happy and unhappy. And I felt like, I felt like
she got there well enough, but once she finished
her title, I stopped. Cause I was like, I don't
think this is how you want to spend your time.
And so we stopped. And then a couple of days
later, I went home and I was training her now
for fun and I brought her ball back. And I thought
she was going to be so excited. And it was so
interesting because I threw the ball and her
glove was on the ground and she ran out and she
didn't know which one to take. So after all those
months, she really had developed a lot of value
in the ring objects themselves. So that was just,
she was just an interesting dog to sort of go
through the path. Yeah, I think. Well, and that's
the key. And I think that's what people need
to understand is that all dogs are completely
different and we can't train them all the same.
I mean, I hear that a lot of people like, oh,
this one's so, so much harder or this one's,
you know, my other one was so easy. And I'm like,
well, if you had an easy one, you should be really
happy because there aren't that many of those.
I think I had one. I was very lucky to have that
one because I think some people never do. And
all my other dogs have been really challenging,
not in that they're bad dogs, just, you know,
they're all completely and utterly different.
And they've all had very different training challenges.
Yeah. I've definitely had more hard than easy.
And I have seen some dogs that I'm like, wow,
I wish that was my dog. I could do something.
But I actually don't know if that's true. Because
once you have it, then you discover how your
training might have impacted that dog. And I
do. I wonder this all the time, like the challenges
I have with my Belgian now with Zen. I wonder
how many of those I created by the way I chose
to train him as I'm trying to back up and try
to figure out how to get out. I mean, it's the
whole thing. It's just arousal. did I cause this
by my reinforcement structure? And oh my gosh,
I was talking to a friend yesterday, just endlessly
like, what's the difference between addiction
and obsession and drive? And then we were talking
about emotions versus instinctual behaviors and
do these things matter? And just kind of went
on and on and on. So it's like trying to put
it in terms that made sense to me so I could
try to back it out and figure out where I could
start to do better. But the process is really
interesting. I mean, for me, it is, I guess,
I guess if my primary issue or desire was just
to do very well with him, that might be different.
Then I might just want to do well, but I really
do want to understand. I take a lot of pleasure
in overcoming the obstacles, which doesn't mean
I enjoy the obstacles. I hope no one gets that
in their head. I do not enjoy suffering. I do
not enjoy problems. I do not. I get frustrated.
I have. But I will say that when I struggle and
then I see success, that means more when it was
hard. So it's so much more because if it were,
that's what I'm saying. If this were easy, I
don't think either of us would be doing it because
it wouldn't be rewarding, right? What's rewarding
is hard. Overcoming hard things is very reinforcing
for us. for me anyway, and I think it is for
most people. And I don't know, I find it fascinating
that people have this weird tendency to want
to avoid hard things, but yet the hard things
are what makes us confident. It's what makes
us resilient. And when we overcome those hard
things, we feel really good about it. yeah that's
probably the same as we do with dogs right that's
how you build resilience in people and in dogs
you do hard things that you may not want to do
and you come out the other side and you survive
and then you go oh hey i did that thing and it
was okay i know so i'm all about like do hard
things all the time like i still like every day
i'm like i make sure i do some hard things whether
it's a workout or figuring something out. I think
we just, we should be challenging ourselves,
but it's, I just find a lot of times with students,
the minute they hit like a challenge, they panic.
And I'm always like, don't panic. It's okay.
And then they overcome it and they feel great.
And I'm like, see, you did it. You did it. puzzle
I call it puzzling I think puzzling is innately
reinforcing to many species including dogs I
think they like figuring out the route I just
I mean because I don't make mistakes a problem
so if my dogs make a mistake it's not like any
bad happens so you can only go from neutral to
right in my book right so you made it if you
did it wrong that's neutral but when you get
it right I'm going to make sure you know and
I do think that like people solving a puzzle
that's in your range. Like if you do a puzzle
for a three -year -old, that's boring because
it's easy. And if you do a puzzle that's 18 ,000
pieces and you don't know how to puzzle, then
that's too hard. So if you can find the right
degree of puzzling where you're struggling a
little, but sometimes this gets easy and then
it gets hard. And I think that dogs have a similar
kind of approach. So I like my dogs to have to
do some puzzling. I do a lot of errorless learning
where I set out the path for the dog. But sometimes
I'm really like, no, no, no. I know you can do
this. I need you to stop and think about it.
And I can almost see my dog like, okay, I'm going
to stop and think about this, like making an
effort. Like I can do this. Yes, you can do this.
Like nothing bad is going to happen. Give it
a shot. I know you can do this. And I do think
dogs appreciate the opportunity to puzzle. Now,
not all dogs. I mean, everything is individual,
of course. Like the Border Collie, he's like,
just tell me what you want. I don't like your
guessing games. Tell me what you want and I'm
going to do the thing. And I'm like, all right,
fine. I'll just tell you what I want. That's
fine. But the Belgian, I think he's all about
like he loves figuring stuff out. It's interesting
for him to to figure it out. Yeah, I think. Well,
Zaina doesn't like. So, for example, she doesn't
like shaping, but she does like challenges like
she loves when we make when we create training
challenges. Right. So, like, for example. Throw
the dumbbell and then someone standing at the
dumbbell saying, hey, she's like, ha, ha, ha.
You can't fool me. I'm going to get that dumbbell
and I'm not looking at you like she loves that.
She thinks that's awesome. And I find with all
my dogs, when I start, well, we don't want to
say proofing anymore because proofing is not
what we do. Proofing is that old word where they
made the dog wrong and then. you know, set the
dog up to fail and then said, you're wrong. Like
when I set up challenges that are hard and my
dog has to dig a little bit, that really builds
confidence in my dogs, like a huge amount of
confidence. Like with Zest, like for three months
leading up to the NOC, I was like, well, this
dog's like totally not ready. For an event like
this. So I better do, you know, let me expose
him to as many things as I can in the amount
of time I have. And I'm like, and it doesn't
matter if he's not ready because he needs this
work anyway. And it was pretty astounding to
see the change in his confidence in a relatively
short amount of time just because he was just
getting all these challenges and. figuring out
how to win them and then winning them. And then
it's like their ego, like their confidence, they,
they just, they changed their whole personality
changes. I wonder how much of it is also that
in a sport like obedience, where you do the same
exercises all the time. Like when I was training,
I knew people who would set up an open ring,
do open, take that away, set up a utility ring,
do utility, take that away. And I'm out there
with two ready jumps because it was easier. And
like, I don't have a I don't have a high jump.
So I'm going to just take that broad jump board
and put it on the edge. They'd be like, but it's
the wrong it's it's not even eight inches. I'm
like, it doesn't matter. It's a concept. It's
the dog knows what it is. Right. And the tendency
in obedience is patterns. And that has to be
so dull. I mean, there's only so many times you
can go out and do exactly the same thing. So
when you start adding some random challenges,
it's got to make it. more interesting for, it
makes it more interesting for me because I have
to think up weird things to do. And I like thinking
up weird things to do. Oh yeah. I love doing
that. I never do patterns. I mean, I very rarely,
the only time I'll do a pattern is when I'm teaching
my dog how to chain so that my dog understands
that. Just because you're not getting reinforced
doesn't mean you're wrong. It actually means
you're right. And you're going to get a big jackpot.
My dogs actually learn that and completely understand
that. But other than that, I mean, people are
horrified. Like my jumps are like never the right
distance. They're always like discombobulated.
I don't even have a ring most of the time. I
just throw some stuff out there. I train in front
of stores and random places all the time. Um,
yeah, if I just had to pattern train, I think
my dogs would just be completely bored. Yeah.
You would love Mondio obedience. Cause it's just,
I mean, there's so much stuff. I'll have all
my Cavalettis and everything. Just my whole yard
just looks like a junk sale and I'll do my send
away right through the center of it. And the
dog's just like over and around all the crap.
Like just go to the end, go to the end. It's
like, I think it makes them stronger. It's like.
Your job is to get to the end. Yes. There's stuffed
animals in the way and there's jumps and all,
but you can ignore all that. You know how to
get to the end. And then when the ring is pristine,
it's like, wow. Yeah. I know exactly what you
want me to do. It's just one jump over there.
How simple is this? Yeah. I mean, even my friend's
training building, there's stuff constantly stuff
on the floor. There's just stuff everywhere.
And we try to switch things up all the time.
I have. bins full of different things, toys that
move around. Um, yeah, it makes it more fun.
It definitely makes it more fun and more interesting
and it builds resilience, right? It teaches the
dog that it did like, yep, here's a problem.
Yeah. There's something in the way, or maybe
you can't see your glove, but I promise you it's
out there. Go get it anyway. Um, and then they're
like, where is it? Where's it? Oh, there it is.
And then we're like, yes, that was so good. And
yeah, it's fun for us and it's fun for the dogs.
I think it's obedience is just a mindset. I mean,
I think, yeah, sure. There's still people out
there. I have students that in their area, that's
what people do. They do the full exercises every
time they do the full run through every time.
But, you know, their dogs aren't having a great
time either. You know, I think that obedience
can be fun if you just break everything into
pieces, if you just mix it all up, mix and match,
make it challenging and just keep it interesting
for the dog. But that's really up to the individual.
Right. I mean, it's not like you the only way
you can compete in obedience is if you pattern
train your dog. Yeah, I know what people say
to me. My dogs hate obedience. I have never had
a dog hate obedience. All my dogs love obedience,
but that's because the dog doesn't know what
they're doing. They're just doing things with
me and I make it fun and interesting. And that's
up to me. I do think some sports are like agility.
I think for many dogs of more intrinsically interesting,
because by definition, it's different every time
you don't pattern agility, but obedience, it's
just a choice. You can choose. I did a. webinar
on creative training. And it was like just a
million things. Like my son articles were in
the car, in the back of the car on top. So the
dog had to find the articles and then had to
get to them, which was not simple because she
had to go over a crate. And then, I mean, just,
it was just a whole series of, I talked about
what does your dog see, hear, feel, and how can
you change it? So what does your dog feel on
the ground? They feel grass. They could feel
a tarp. They could feel wood. So can you do your
scent articles with them on a tarp? What does
your dog hear? What kind of sounds are going
on around the dog? And I tried to break it out
that way to help people realize that they could
take one prop, like a tarp, and you could hang
it. So now you have a visual. Exactly. But you
could have your glove under it. Or I hung my
gloves. in the trees that I had in the driveway,
but they were just clipped low. So the dog could
see that there were three gloves out there, but
you just had to go out, leap in the tree, grab
the thing. And, oh, I put the scent articles
on the trampoline. So the dog had to get on the
trampoline and the thing is bouncing around.
I'm like, well, but I thought, I thought my dogs
loved those sorts of things. And I really enjoyed
just thinking about, and some of these things
like it takes you 10 minutes. You're like, okay,
I'm going to put the articles. under the tarp
and then you know you like the dog knows it's
under there now the dog's trying to figure out
how to get rid of the tarp i love watching it
it's so entertaining the whole the whole thing
that's probably why i like mondia sport because
it has a lot of that kind of stuff i feel like
i don't know if people don't do it because they
perceive it as work like to me It's fun. I mean,
yeah, I guess it's easier if I just walk into
the building and the ring is set up and I just
do the thing. But I would rather think up how
can I make it challenging? How can I make it
different? Like you said, how can I be creative?
And like you said, the best part is just watching
the dogs figure out. Sometimes, too, I think
people oftentimes. um, really underestimate their
dogs, like really underestimate their dogs. Like
sometimes they're so worried and busy, like coddling
them almost where I'm like, no, no, no, your
dog is fine. But, but I'm like, I promise you,
your dog is fine. I find a lot of people go a
little too far off the rails in that direction.
And when I'm like, just, I. try it. And they're
like, my dog did it. And they're like shocked.
I'm like, yep. Just sometimes just give them
a chance, right? Like just get out of their way
and, and see. Yeah. And they will rise to the
occasion because they are really smart. And I
think they, they really do like solving, you
know, like you said, solving, solving problems.
if you can get your dog to understand the concept
fetch means pick up and take the object that's
all the dog needs to know doesn't matter what
they're fetching where they're fetching how they're
fetching fetch the object and that's so much
more interesting than it'll always be a dumbbell
that's perfectly fitted to your mouth and it
will never land in a bad space no no just fetch
fetch the object So I think that's, yeah. And
I think it strengthens their understanding of
the exercise. Like if they're always doing it
in a pristine way, right? Like the ring is clear.
There's nothing going on. Go out, get it and
come back. Then they go on a trial. Now there's
stuff going on and the dog's like, oh God, I
don't know what to do. Or they get, you know,
like overwhelmed. If your dog understands what
you just said, pick up the object, no matter
where it is. uh no matter what the situation
then you put them in a ring and they do a retrieve
and things can happen around them and it's not
going to matter they're going to be fine and
that's really um just way more fair to the dog
right then under for lack of a better word under
preparing them And then putting them in a situation
where they're going to be challenged. Like I
know the ring is going to present challenges.
And I know that every single place is going to
be different. And even if it's the same place
on a different day, from the dog's perspective,
it's different. So the more I can teach them
to generalize the behaviors. The more prepared
my dog is going to be that, OK, no matter what
happens, I'm going to be able to do this task
because I understand it. Makes for fun training.
And they're going to be able to dig. Right. Because
they're and like the thing you mentioned earlier,
which I thought was really good, too, is like
when a dog makes a mistake, not not making a
big deal about it, because I think people worry
that I think this is still relatively prevalent.
If my dog does it wrong and I don't tell the
dog it's wrong, then my dog's going to keep doing
it, which I disagree with. I feel like the dog's
trying and I'll, you know, people always think
I'm so crazy, but my dog will be crooked on a
front and they're like, the front's crooked.
And I'm like, yep, I don't care. It's fine. I'm
not worried about it. But the fact that I don't
make a big deal about errors makes my dog not
worried about making a mistake in the ring. And
I think that makes them more free. Absolutely.
More confident. I don't think I think creative
training would be a problem if the dog thought
that being wrong was going to cause them some
sort of harm or distress because it's not it's
puzzles are only fun if you can't lose. Can you
imagine having a puzzle where there was a ramification
for getting the wrong piece? Like. Somehow that's
not a very fun puzzle. When we're doing a puzzle,
we don't keep trying to put the wrong piece in,
even though there's no negative reaction, because
it's not the right piece. Like what matters is
the dog knows what's right. You don't have to
talk about what's wrong any more than when I
do a puzzle. I know what's wrong. And the way
I interact with my dog, let's try again. That
is, it's, it's still communication. It's still,
we're going to do this differently. So I did
something the other day. My dog came in to bark
at a person in the blind. He's supposed to be
barking. And he did something called a dirty
bite, which means he grabbed the suit before
he should. And that's a no -no. You do not do
that. And he hasn't done it in a really long
time. So he comes around. He took a little nibble.
And the guy went, hey, which is fine. I don't
have a problem with that because he had to stop
the behavior. And my dog's like, sorry, bark,
bark, bark. And he starts doing it right. So
as they come up, I say, he says, kick. And he
goes, do you want me to kick the ball? And I
said. yes because you said kick and he goes oh
because you know he made that mistake and i thought
first of all that mistake took place 15 seconds
earlier so that is off the table right secondly
too late he's not thinking that way he's he's
biting because he's over aroused and he got excited
right so if anything kicking the ball a whole
bunch makes it less likely that he'll do that
because now he's remembering what he's doing
which is playing a ball game he's barking to
get the ball But it was interesting to listen
to this lovely person, by the way, who thinks
in terms of right and wrong. And you reward things
you like and you don't reward things you don't
like. And I'm like, yeah, but the dog isn't thinking
that way. He's just like, and if you don't reward
him, he's actually more likely to have trouble
next time because now he's frustrated. So frustration
is more likely to lead to the exact behavior
I didn't want to see. And people don't necessarily
understand that if your dog is flat, so you don't
reward him for being flat, he's not going to
get lively the next time. Like that's not going
to work. Like you go ahead and give the cookie.
If my dog sits crooked, I'll do whatever I'm
going to do. But I do make a mental note, work
on fronts. And that's it. That's a lesson for
another day. So I need to know it, but the dog
actually doesn't. As long as one of us is aware,
and it's probably better if it's me, we'll probably
be. Okay. But it's interesting because people
struggle. And I see this on social media all
the time. If you don't correct that, it's going
to get worse. And I say, but it didn't get worse.
Like we're looking at it on the video. We're
looking together at the video and it's not getting
worse and they'll repeat it, but it'll get worse.
No, no, but it didn't. You're looking at the
video. We, we have it in front of us. We don't
have to project what might happen. We know what's
going to happen. That's just a struggle. And
I don't know how much of that is just because
we come from a society where things are right
and wrong and you get punishments and rewards.
And so they kind of struggle with the idea that
effort is actually, in my opinion, the name of
the game because I can teach the behaviors. The
struggle is with attitude and desire. That's
where I struggle because the reinforcement goes
down, the pressure goes up, whatever. But the
actual behaviors are not hard to teach. That's
where the reinforcers and punishers may be a
factor. But long term, I really want the dog
to love the training game. If I can get that,
I can get through a lot. I know. I don't know
why. I don't know why it's such a hard concept.
I mean, if you think about like if you just think
about it for yourself, like if I if someone's
God, I think back to when I was trying to learn
agility because I never really learned it well.
and it was super frustrating for me and if someone
if my instructor had just kept saying no no you're
wrong with no other information because that's
what people do most of the time not only do they
say it's wrong but then they don't even give
the dog additional information because they're
like the dogs should know what it did if they
just kept telling me You're wrong all the time.
You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And
then every once in a while, like, okay, that's
right. After a while, I would just be so frustrated.
Like, it wouldn't be fun. Why would I want to
keep doing it? So, you know, if the instructor's
like, okay, nice try, you know, turn your body
a little this way, turn your, I think humans
are the same way. I think if they just put themselves
in the dog's paws. they wouldn't want to be told
constantly like for every little little thing
you're wrong you're wrong you're wrong and yet
they feel like it's okay to do that with a dog
and then they wonder why the dog's struggling
or coming in slow on the front or something or
doesn't want to play your game i mean you think
about how you work with a kid like you're drilling
a multiplication table or something and everything
is like two times two the kid's four you got
it Four times three, 12. Excellent. Five times
three, 13. So close. Five times three. And you
know, it's just that it's, you're still in the
game with them. And if they get it wrong twice,
there's a really good chance that the, so you
say 13, the second time they say 14, you go,
let's do it together. Five times three is 15,
15. Let's do it again. Five times three, 15.
Yay. As if they did it themselves, right? That's
how we interact with, that's how you would interact
with a child if you're making it a game. And
a dog kind of mentally, their emotional capacity
is not that different. I mean, they didn't think
this was a good idea. Just like the kid doesn't
care about learning multiplication tables. You're
trying to take something that is not intrinsically
interesting or reinforcing. So in a case like
that, how can you make it? You did it so close,
like guide them through, ignore the errors. And
the errors just kind of go away. Eventually they
go away because they're not being reinforced.
And then if you keep seeing the same one, you
change your setup so that they won't keep doing
that thing. Then they get it right. You celebrate.
And the dog's like, I like the celebration. So
I think I'll do it this way. Yeah. I don't know
why that's such a prevalent. I mean, that is
how we were taught originally. That's how I was
taught. Absolutely. Is if the dog is wrong. tell
them they're wrong. Now we were never told to
do anything other than to say you're wrong. Like
now I look at it. I'm like, okay, my dog's healing.
My dog forges. I say you're wrong. Okay. How
does my dog know it forged? It could have forged.
It could have lagged. It could have been wide.
It could have been too close. It could have lost
focal point. It could have been lost engagement.
And I just said, no, like my dog doesn't even
know. what it did wrong or how to fix it. It's
so interesting because if you think about it
as a person, have you ever had a student ask
you, or I've asked students, where is your heel
position? Like show me on your body, where do
you want your dog's feet in relation to your
feet? Show me that. And then show me where you
want your dog's head and neck. And most of the
time they can't answer that question. They're
like, well. I mean, they know generally what
heel position is, but when you're talking about
precision, you really need to be able to nail
that down. Like you really need to have a clear
idea and most don't. So I'm like, well, okay.
So that is complicated because if you don't have
a very clear idea, very clear, then your ability
to communicate to the dog is going to be about
zero. And now the dog really is guessing. So
now what the dog has is all your dog learns is
what's really wrong. Cause you know, what's really
wrong. You know, what's really lagging. What's
really fortunate. You don't know what's right,
but you know, what's really wrong. So that's
all you have to work with. And that's very hard
on the dog to like, well, I know if I go one
and a half feet to the side, that doesn't work.
I don't really know what she thinks about one
foot, but I know one and a half is bad. And now
you have a dog who's sort of doing that weird
drifting thing and heal. But, you know, you got
to know somebody has to be running the show and
hopefully it's the owner. But you got to be really
clear and then you can help the dog with a whole
lot of yes when they hit the thing it is you
want that dog to show you. Yeah, I mean, I'm
a I always drone on and on about criteria like
you have to know what what you want the dog to
look like, because if you don't know, you're
going to be giving the dog terrible information.
And that's completely not fair to the dog at
all. But at the same the other. Then people go,
OK, I know exactly where front position is. And
then it's like, OK, my dog doesn't know front.
And now I want him to be perfect. I'm like, no,
no, no, no, no. It's a process. It's a process.
And also, you know, baby steps, baby steps. It's
OK. Like in the beginning, I reward a whole lot
of stuff I don't want to see with an adult dog
or with an advanced dog. And that's OK. Like,
hey, if it's your first few fronts, I don't even
care what they look like. If you got in there
somewhere and you sat, hell, I'm happy. Now,
hopefully I put a platform down or I did something
to make you somewhat correct. But the very first
time you do it without props, without extra cues,
I'm just happy for a behavior because I can almost
see the dog going, I wonder if I'm supposed to
sit here. You did it. I don't know what that
sit looks like. Like this isn't the time to fuss
about. The sit will straighten out as the dog
gets confident because then they remember all
the pieces come together and it works itself
out. Hopefully. Yeah. No, I do. I think that
it's just like you said, they have to be right
more often than not. And they have to just be
able to be relaxed, right? About figuring it
out, like give them time to get there. Give them
time to get there. I find that people either
go in one direction or the other, like they want
way too much perfection too soon. And they just
don't give the dog enough grace, like to just
kind of. head in that general direction you know
the dog's like a year old and they're like it's
forging I'm like my dogs forge until they're
like three because all I care about is dry are
you having fun you know drive drive drive yeah
you're forged I can fix that later I'm not worried
about that you know they they want that perfection
immediately or they're they're the other direction
where they're being way too vague because they
don't want to put any pressure on the dog well
but you're just confusing the dog and that confusion
is uncomfortable like you don't want to be confused
i don't want to be confused so they're not yeah
they're just completely unclear and loosey -goosey
kind of like you said you know foot and a half
a foot it's like i don't know somewhere in this
area It's such a hard thing to teach. It feels
like something experience tells you with the
dog in front of you. You just kind of feel when
it's time to say, hey, come on now, I need you
to give me a little bit more. Like you just feel
it versus, hey, let's loosen it up. And people
will ask me for a roadmap. I'm like, I don't
really know. I just know I get there. So sometimes
I'm working hard on precision kind of drills.
maybe with platforms or something. And other
times it's a little bit more of a shaping activity,
but over time, slowly it gets better. Like as
I look at videos, especially around healing,
because healing is such a complicated thing.
And most of my dogs do start out with forging
for sure. And some of them forge forever. I never
do solve that problem. But I mean, in my mind.
The idea of losing points for lagging is not
acceptable to me. The idea of losing points for
forging, I can deal with it. And usually I get
pretty good healing score. So in the relative
sense, nothing upsets me more than lagging. And
I just, I just really, cause it's lagging is
almost always an error of attitude. It's an error
of lack of enthusiasm. Forging can be a hundred
things, but lagging is almost never a happy dog.
So just don't give me lagging. I'll take the
foraging. I'll take the bumping and the crowding
me any day over lagging or going too wide. Those
two just, they kill me. Well, going too wide
and lagging. Some dogs just go wide. But it's
just a process of shaping. It's like, you know,
you have a little piece of clay and you, somehow
you just know. And that's a terrible answer when
somebody asks you. It's like, I don't know. I
just know. So shaping is like in my life. It's
my latest obsession now because I find that it's
people miss pieces. So they either they start,
they break it down and they start with a small
piece and then they go from the small piece and
then they want to go to the end behavior. So
they don't, you know, do they don't do little
piece by little piece by little piece by little
piece. And then or. They're just not patient
enough. Like they don't even give the dog a chance
to think and puzzle it out. I'm like, just be
quiet for a few minutes. Just like give them
a minute to try and puzzle it out. Like they're
trying to like overmanage the dog, right? So
I'm pushing shaping a lot more. Like, cause I
think that's such an, people are like, oh yeah,
I know how to do that. I don't think I think
people in general could be way better at it because
I find that when I like I just shape so many.
I shape my fronts now. I shape my finishes like
I shape so many obedience behaviors. And then
my dogs have the same. They're getting high success
rate, high reinforcement rate. They're in their
mind. It's a trick because it's. It's the way
I teach them how to wave and bow and twist and
spin. And then they have that same attitude about
it. So I feel like if people were just better
in general at shaping and then shaped a lot more,
patiently shaped things, I think they'd have
a lot more success. And I think the dogs would
be a lot happier. I don't do a ton of shaping.
I shape my retrieves usually. for the hold and
the pickup and all, because I want it done a
certain way. I don't want to play retrieve. And
I'll shape some stuff. And what I find is I shape
my sun articles. Eventually I get to a point
where I do very little shaping. That's not a
good thing or a bad thing. I just, I just find
that I'm quicker with allure, but I will say
that I find that the things that I shape, there
are many fewer steps to getting off the props.
So if I shape my dog's sitting at my side I find
that I don't have to do as many steps so I do
love that like when I do end up shaping something
I like how quickly I can get to the end behavior
compared to if I lure it because the dog is still
thinking about where's my cookie and I think
a lot of their brain is focused on the food and
not on what they're actually doing I could definitely
use you know what you should teach a class on
advanced shaping for obedience so people who
know how to shape and how you shape finishes
and fronts and stuff that would be kind of fun
for those of us who are like well i'm learning
i'm almost done now doing a workshop on um shaping
fronts because i just i used to have this like
elaborate process well i got away from props
just because i don't know i wanted to see if
i could teach it without a prop and then i you
know had this like elaborate process for teaching
fronts where I broke everything down, pivot ball
off the pivot ball, but it was so many steps
and my dogs, it worked well. My dogs really understood
fronts. Like they understood them like to the
nth degree. And that's what I was like, I want
you to understand it, but it was too many steps
and people like couldn't. like persist in all,
all the way through. So then I'm like, there
has to be an easier way. And then I just started
shaping them and I'm like, oh, this is so natural
for them. Cause I'm just shaping it based off
movement. Dogs follow movement. Um, yeah. So
I just started, so I shaped fronds, shaped finishes.
I don't like using props anymore. I use them
occasionally. People I find have a super hard
time fading off props. And it's, I get that question
constant. As a matter of fact, they did a live
today for a frenzy and somebody asked, they always
do like, how do you fade off props? Yeah. So
more and more, I'm trying to not even use them
to challenge myself. Like, can I teach this to
my dog without the prop? And a lot of times if
I just shape it, I find that that works. It holds.
Yeah. I've been using props a lot. I feel like
they understand it. It's weird. I can teach it.
And then I feel like it takes a really long time
till it's really ingrained. If I shape it and
they puzzle it out, once they learn it, now they
know it. I agree. So what I've been using props
for a lot is fitness. And what I'm finding is
like position changes. I love things I'm seeing
there. I'm really liking the body control that's
coming with a variety of props that I use for,
you know, things. And I like that my dogs love
their little props. They run over and stand on
them so they can practice being correct. And
I like props when I want to add distance. So
I want to work on your, you know, sit to down
and I want to add distance. I love that I can
throw the prop back up there and just focus on
distance because I know that the prop will cause
them to be correct. So for that, I love them.
And I, for the fitness stuff, which is really,
it's been a bit of an eye opener for me lately,
how much I think lack of fitness causes problems
for us. And I think I look at a dog like Zen
is a very big, powerful, strong dog. And I assume
that means he's fit. And that's not actually
true. He is strong and he's got big muscles,
but he doesn't have the little tiny muscles,
the stabilizer muscles that he should have. He
doesn't have the control of the small movements.
And it's kind of exciting to realize I can actually
improve that. So I'm having fun with my fitness
journey. And that's why I'm doing ice is in a
gold level for. creating a conditioning plan
because, you know, border collie is the way they
skulk around. He is, he is such a border collie,
you know, he's always creeping here and there.
And I'm like, that cannot possibly be good for
your balance. Like we have to make sure that
you learn all the other ways of using your body.
Cause that does not look like stuff like that,
you know? So I'm hoping that obedience with the
uprightness is balanced well from the hurting.
Cause those two are sort of opposite. So. In
obedience, it's front end up, back end sort of
drops. The weight goes in the rear. Whereas in
herding, they put their weight down into their
front. So I'm like, okay, those are at least
a good, they're a good pair. But I just want
to make sure. The herding behaviors are pretty
natural and their structure is made for that.
I tend to find that the dogs don't typically
get injured from that as much. It's more. They
get more injured. It's in life. It's in life,
chasing balls, chasing critters, zooming up and
down the stairs. Believe it or not, more dogs
get injured that way. Or it's just wear and tear
over time, right? But, yeah, conditioning is
huge. I mean, it's super important. Dogs in every
single sport should be conditioned, and they
should be on a conditioning program. I found
when I was doing rehab, I spent years, years
and years doing seminars, like bending over backwards,
trying to get people to understand to do fitness
proactively. And like, they never got it. They
never got it until their dog was hurt. And then
once their dog was hurt, they're like, oh, and
then they were 100 % on board for the rest of
the dog's life. But for some reason, that's totally
me. That's like, I'm telling you, man. And I'm
still like, I mean, he was going to rehab twice
a week. And even now I know he, I can see things
like, I know he is stronger on one back leg than
the other. And one of his front legs is stronger
than the other. And I'm like, oh man. So I'm
working on it. But it's stressful because I'm
in a sport that has high, high levels of expectation,
physical expectation, much more so than obedience.
So if it was just obedience, I wouldn't even
be whatever. But oh, no, the dog's going to start
throwing a bone around. But yes, live and learn,
you know, so I'll just keep working on it. And
yeah, ring sports and agility are super hard
on dogs. I mean, I've had herding dogs, but.
that have gotten injured, but usually it's either
in a scuffle or, you know, I had border collies
that were doing, um, border collie competitions.
So herding trials, which are like 500 yard outruns.
Like, have you ever seen those things? It's insane.
It's amazing. It's unbelievable what those dogs
can do. But, um, yeah, conditioning is super
important people, but I know. I don't even try
anymore because I'm like, unless their dogs get
hurt, then they're like, oh, this is really important.
I'm like, yeah, I'm trying to tell you that.
Live and learn, huh? Yeah. Well, we've been talking
for quite a while. Thank you for giving me so
much time. I wasn't even paying attention. I'm
like, oh, my God, we can rattle on forever, but
we should probably stop now forever. It's ridiculous,
right? We could talk dogs forever and ever and
ever. Well, I'm so glad you are with the school
and so glad you are in my life. And congratulations
on your successes recently. Really, really cool
to see such good things happening to you. Well,
thank you for the school and for getting me into
the school because it's been amazing. And it's
just so great to be around so many other instructors.
And like you said, so many students that are
all like -minded. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It's
a good community. We all thank you, Denise. Well,
and thank you for being a part of it. Appreciate
that. And I appreciate being here today. Thanks.
All right. Thanks, Petra. Bye -bye.