Former GM Thad Levine: Winter Meetings thoughts, Conversations w/Framber’s rep, Passive execs problem

00:00:02
Speaker 1: Bad Lebine joining us right now, great timing as the winter meetings are approaching.

00:00:05
Speaker 2: So that great to have you on.

00:00:07
Speaker 1: And good to see you again. What I want to do, though, is because the online world really needs to get hooked in from the jump, and I feel like the pressing question that will really bring people in and we'll get to a lot of other things, is what do you think the twins are going to do with Byron Buckston? A guy that you know pretty well as you spent a lot of time with him. Do you think that he will end up getting traded? And do you think that Byron will wave a no trade clause to a number of teams based on where the team's at Right now, I'm hitting you with something hard to start because I want people to know we're bringing it today.

00:00:37
Speaker 2: You're playing the aj Perzinski role here. This is the first time I've been on the show with no catchers present. It's quite shocking. I don't know how to respond. It's refreshing, Yeah, yeah, it's refreshing for goodness sake. Yeah.

00:00:50
Speaker 3: Much better looking, much better looking too. We don't hide behind the mask.

00:00:53
Speaker 2: You know, better beards, that's for sure, fellas Hey, just quick appreciation. I haven't got a chance to spend much time with you guys. Saw you guys play, Kevin absolutely spectacular defender is some of the most highlight reel catches I've ever seen in my career. You made. I remember so many of them, especially in Toronto. Just an absolute pleasure to watch you play with your intensity on defense and Todd, I would say, in a word, freakish in terms of your power, your pull side power. I remember the home run derby you hit and was highlight of my career. You doing that in front of the home crowd was spectacular. But you know, as we enter a free agency and we can talk about that globally, like you, two guys would be coveted right now based upon your skill set. So pleasure to spend some time with you. With regards to Byron, you know, Byron is such a unique player. I think keep in mind, guys, that one of the mentors he had, the captain who preceded him, was Joe Mauer. Joe Maller played his entire career in Minnesota. Joe Maher, who I know definitively because we offered to him at the end of his career the chance to go play wherever he wanted to. Derek Falvey myself ownership was very supportive of that. Joe decided to stay in Minnesota. You know, he felt a bond to that community. He never wanted to turn his back on that fan base. And I think Byron is wired in some similar fashions. You know, last trade deadline, I think he made a very bold statement to the media in which he said definitively he was not going to be treated he was going to stay with Minnesota. So while he is desirous of winning a championship, I think he primarily would like to do that in Minnesota. So I think the question remains, well, Derek Falvey will now skip for Derek Shelton sit down with him. Will they convince him that they're going to be competitive and competitive soon? And if so, I would expect Byron Buckston will want to be part of that. He's going to want to deliver a championship as best he can to the Minnesota fans. If, however, they say that there are a number of years away, he may start looking elsewhere. But I think he's going to be very specific as to where he wants to look. He is from Baxley, Georgia. I think the chance to get closer to home would be very important to him. Otherwise I would see him staying in a Minnesota Twins Jersey.

00:03:06
Speaker 3: Yeah. Before we get into the specifics of teams and stuff, I always, you know, when I have an opportunity to talk to someone like you, I kind of like to just know kind of what the day to day is like at the winter meeting for someone in your previous position. I attended for the first time last year. I spent a lot of time on the ground floor kind of walking around, but I always like to get a little insight now that I'm done playing. Do you go in with like a checklist in mind? Do you have, like you know, free agents that you want to set up meetings with. As agents call on, you just kind of take us into kind of the day to day and I guess the course of the winter meetings how that kind of shakes out for you.

00:03:41
Speaker 2: I mean, primarily we want to know if the traveling secretary has good snacks in the suite. I mean, that's kind of the focus of it. Kevin, I would say it's changed dramatically over the course of my career. When I started I was with the Colorado Rockies. Dan O'Dowd was the general manager, and the way it started was I was literally handed a list of all the phone numbers the other general managers. I would call all twenty nine rooms and try to set up one individual meetings where Dan o Daoud and his group could go sit down with them. And so there was a lot more individual engagement with teams. We would actually literally go visit with at least twenty, if not all twenty nine other clubs. You would sit down, you'd have an open conversation about what are your needs and surpluses, how do they align up with our needs and surpluses, and are there opportunities for us to get together to make deals. I think things have changed now a little bit. At the winter meetings, there's far less meeting together. There's a lot more conversations over the phone by way of text. There's a lot of stuff done leading up to the meetings, so you really are very targeted when you get to the meetings. Maybe you're only meeting with four or five clubs. It's the clubs that you see the most likelihood of getting a deal done. And then, as you guys know, there's so many agents, and there's so many members of the media there that you're constantly meeting with agents, members of the media, And as the way the off season goes, we usually start looking into free agency and trying to spend our owner's money to fill our holes. When that seems exorbitant, we go to the trade market, and then when it seems like the asking price to acquire talent is too high, we circle back to the free agent market. And so it's a constant conversation balancing between talking to agents, talking to other teams executives to try to find out where's the best deal that we can make, to try to make the biggest impact on an organization.

00:05:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you hit that well, man. Those things I always thought, like when I played, I would tell my agent I was a free agent, like, just give them a price. We already know what price we're at. Just tell tell the team I want to go to, or a team that's interest in me. It's going to be sell and sown. Let's get this ball move. And I'm sick of it. I got the holidays coming up here. But that's just just not how it goes, and I kind of wish it did, because I feel like more guys that either get picked up or you know, there'll be a little there'll be a little more stuff going in motion. But that's just.

00:05:56
Speaker 2: I think you're talking about two different approaches to an agent. Once you know one you're talking to who's clearly trying to get the most money he can for the player, and totally respect that. That's one style of negotiation. The other one is what you're talking about, which is where you're really contemplating what is the quality of life that that player wants to pursue. And sometimes that's playing in a specific market, Maybe it's an opportunity to play a specific position. Maybe a guy's hunting the longest term deal rather than the most money per year, and other guys want the most money in the shorter term because they want to get back to free agency. But when you're talking to an agent, you get a clear picture right out of the choot as to what type of negotiation you're undertaking. But I honestly always felt, from an executive standpoint, the more transparency, the more likely we were to get a deal done. I never took advantage of somebody if they were more willing to reveal that that player maybe really wanted to sign with you. You know, I think a measure of a person sometimes is how do you handle leverage? And so when an agent came to us and said, you know, hey, listen, my guy really would like to either stay with you as an existing player or come to you as a free agent. I never viewed that as a compromise on their part. That was just a reveal, and I appreciated their honesty. You still want to treat the player extremely fairly in that situation, because the relationship is with the player moving forward, and if he doesn't realize in the moment that you took advantage of him, he certainly will over time. He will be disinclined to ever re sign with you, and his agent will be disinclined to do business with you in the future. So I think the integrity of the agent starts that conversation when he reveals that the player maybe wants to return to the team or join that team. The integrity then shifts to the general manager in that instance to handle that situation responsibly and still treat the player very fairly in the process.

00:07:36
Speaker 3: Yeah, on topic with that, because baseball is the only sport where kind of free agency drags out over the entire offseason. Give me your perfect scenario, things that could be implemented. Obviously things have to be collectively bargain. But how do we get free agency moving quicker? How is it putting a deadline on you free agents or trades or certain things. How do you see us as an industry making big baseball free agency exciting and quick? And then obviously you know there's gonna be some guys who linger, but let's get the majority of these guys signed so fans could get excited about these new players. Players can get acclimated, they can meet their teammates. As a player, I always felt like, you know, my first couple of years when I was with Toronto, I always worked out with this mindset that I was improving to help my team. It got harder for me when I was always a free agent. I was out there, I'm like, what am I training for? Like, obviously I want to be the best version myself, but I like this collective approach that like, man, I want to call one of my teammates and be like, hey, did you get in the gym today? Did you hit? Did you do this? It sucked, you know when you had to wait till, you know, middle of February to.

00:08:38
Speaker 2: Sign Well and Kevin, I'll add a few things to your comments, which I think are spot on. Is you know, when we're signing a guy like you or signing a guy like Todd, part of it is because of the leadership, the experience you have, the championship pedigree. So if you are coming on board February, you know, week before spring training, you're not able to really spread your knowledge and your wisdom to as guys and have as big of an impact. And also, my guess is you guys find that very fulfilling to help mentor guys. And if we're saying you can only start that process when you meet them in spring training, we're missing an opportunity. Another thing I would just add to the conversation is the fact that every club is investing so much in their spring training facilities. I think a lot of you guys now are coming down well in advance to spring training to work out there because the facilities are just so great, And so we're depriving you of the ability to get down there and also get to know some of your teammates, some of your coaches, some of the resources that will be around you. You're getting to know that as spring training begins or dare I say now a lot of guys who are signing well into spring training. It's just such a disadvantage. So I think there's a real dangerous situation going on in baseball right now, which is gms are trying to get the best deals they can, so tour agents agents believe if they wait longer, it'll be more deadline driven teams will have to capitulate and give more money. But then there's a tipping point in that you get past a certain date, the player and agent become a little bit compromised, and gms now are taking advantage of that and signing guys to you know, kind of deflated deals late into February, sometimes March, when guys are really needing to get back into camp and get back out on the field, and so they're in a compromise position. I think it's a terrible way to start a relationship. Furthermore, we're seeing from a performance standpoint, those players are missing out on spring training. There's something to do with the at bats. You guys get that, the reps, you guys that get on the mound just to get into shape. Those guys aren't having great aprils, some of them spilling into May, and so I think we're losing across the boards as an industry on all the fronts you mentioned, Kevin, and then additionally a few that I just brought up. So as a result, I love the thought of having some sort of deadline. Todd kind of referenced it. I think we should get back to the point where when you guys go and spend the holidays with your families and friends, you can tell them where you're going to play the next year, and where your kids may be going to school, and where you're looking for housing. So if we could somehow figure out a way, maybe it's not a hard and fast deadline too soon after the season, but surely by the end of December, we should all have a pretty good understanding of how good a fit of players for a team and a team is for that player. If we can accelerate decisions to be made in the calendar year such that you then can spend all of January February preparing with the team you're going to play for, ideally interacting with some of those teammates, sharing your wisdom, sharing your expertise. I think we all win from that.

00:11:31
Speaker 4: How about making a deadline at the Winter Meetings? Wouldn't that be helpful for a lot of guys to you know, get these free agents going a little.

00:11:40
Speaker 2: Bit well todd. That would reinvigorate the Winter Meetings, which right now, you know, we don't see a ton of signings there. Would It would be the off season spectacle that Major League Baseball wishes it was. You know, we have media all over the place there trying to break news, but they're really hunting for stories and they really are breaking a lot more rumors than they are signed. If we actually had a need to sign and agreed to terms with players, there, what an event that would be for Major League Baseball? We put in on it, on it on the map. Where's right now? It's just kind of a slow bleed to get through free agency, and I don't think it captures the fans interest like MLB would want it to.

00:12:20
Speaker 1: My next question, hold on, hold up real quick, because I want to jump in. Are you guys I'm just making sure here from the player perspective, are you guys good with like KP You're good? Everyone like you? You have to sign December eighth, I noise get taken care of, and then you just get to take it or leave it off, or versus doing a trade deadline at the winter meetings so that it can't be used as leverage and we can get the trade action done and then go to the signings.

00:12:45
Speaker 3: I think there's a I think it's got to be incentive driven. I don't think it's like a cutoff, like you can't sign, but maybe incentivized teams for signing players, Like maybe ninety percent of the deal counts against the CBT and you get a ten percent discount on you know, luxury, something along those lines. To incentivize teams where you know, if we're fighting over just you know, a year. I know year is a lot or you know, a couple million bucks, which sounds like a lot, but to a team it's not that much. But like, let's get the ball roving. Incentivized teams. Maybe it's a draft pick compensation if you sign a guy for X amount of years for certain amount of dollars, whatever it may be. You know, they're smarter people out there than me. But I think you incentivized teams and agents and players to sign by a certain date. So all those things that we talked about, being able to get in and meet your teammates and you know, get your family settled.

00:13:33
Speaker 4: You know.

00:13:33
Speaker 3: As a player who signed late, it was tough, you know, And I think about my my most recent experience with the Rangers. You know, part of the reason I got brought in was to be kind of a veteran guy, a leader, guy who's been there help out some of these younger guys. And the first time I'm meeting them, it's three or four days into spring training. I didn't have a lot of time. And obviously my time was short there. I got released, you know, a couple months into the season. But it felt like if I had an entire offseason living here in Dallas, I could have commuted down to arling in and you know, saw the guys and worked out and got to know the staff a little bit better. You know, maybe things would have turned out a little bit different. But you know, I don't think you could just put a deadline on, like if you don't sign your you're kicked out of baseball. I think it has to be incentive driven.

00:14:14
Speaker 2: How about this as an idea, guys, how about if you don't sign by specific date, the most you can sign for is like eighty percent of the qualifying offer, and it could be over two three years if you want to, or it could be all in one year. But like that's that's kind of now the cap for play.

00:14:30
Speaker 5: If you want the Yeah, But I just I think it's such an unrealistic ask when you're saying that, I mean that just gives you're coming from a long time executive side, that where that's a way for that side to squeeze guys, Like for me, why not do the incentive side which incentivizes team to actually be active versus them saying take it or leave it.

00:14:51
Speaker 1: If you wait until tomorrow, you're only going eighty percent of the qualifying offer. I just think that's a trash way to operate in a negotiation.

00:15:00
Speaker 2: I'm just assuming that the guys who are positioned to make one hundred plus million dollars, you know, enter trying to ecot one hundred and ten or signed for ninety Like I think executives would have to come to the table much more sincerely earlier in that process is what I would hope as well.

00:15:17
Speaker 1: Do you think that the incentive side is a good idea and that side ever go for it, okay, And what about the trade deadline? What about it? See to me, I think because I'm always trying to think that, I'm not trying to play like a player agent here. I'm just trying to defend the other side a little bit. My thing is I always try to think of what actually would get done in a negotiation, because anything that happens has to get agreed to from player and ownership side. For me, the thing that I actually think is realistic is the trade deadline. Right so on the player side, you're going to be happy with that. Players don't want to get traded in freaking February when they already think they're gone somewhere and then they get moved. Wipe the trades off the board. Let the first month or so of the offseason focus on what trades can happen, and then it's done. Now you can still do signings before that, but you can only sign players to advance yourself as a team for an x amount of time period. Of course, you're going to open up trades again, but we don't get that many trades at the beginning of the season anyway. So like, let's let's set this dead period where you can't trade players on a forty man roster.

00:16:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a very sound concept. You know, As I said earlier, part of the reason we wait on free agency is because we have an alternative, which is going to the trade market. And part of the reason we wait on the trade market is because we have an alternative, which is free agency. So if you have tight windows in which you can only operate in one space, you're going to have to accelerate conversations in each of those spaces.

00:16:42
Speaker 4: It's a good it's a good one. Yeah, I said free agent. I meant to say trade deadline. I know that's what I came off. But this is very interesting. This is this should be the language and the banter back and forth with you know, the collective bargaining and everything else like these should be the tall and I hope that's what they're talking about, But there's other little things that they go through with.

00:17:04
Speaker 1: While we're at it. One more thad, can we trade draft picks too? Every other league gets to do that. I'm just coming from the fan perspective. All I care about that is activity.

00:17:12
Speaker 3: I've been saying it for a long time that I think it would help advance trades, you know, like and it's to my point too, Like I wanted to ask you about this too, and you know the trade that happened yesterday between the Red Sox and the Pirates. But we were just talking about teams covet prospects so much that at some point you have an abundance of them and you don't have enough room for them to you know, fill out your major league roster. At some point you got to trade them, Like what is what's the what is it the fear of that this prospect becomes this player that you drafted, developed and you hoped. But at some point I'd love to see teams like use their prospects and their draft picks to improve their major league roster because ultimately that's what, you know, makes everything work. If you have a productive major league team, everything else would kind of follow.

00:18:00
Speaker 2: And I think both these points kind of fall under a similar umbrella. For me, I would love to trade draft picks. We've talked about this as from the GM perspective at every GM meeting. I don't know why we haven't implemented that. I just strongly believe we should have every ability to try to build a championship organization. We shouldn't be restricted like we currently are. I would take a lot of the safeguards off of the draft. I would take it off of trading draft picks. I just think teams should be able to spend money where they want to spend money to try to build championship organizations. Let's let teams be as creative as possible. Let's not restrict creativity whatsoever. And then, Kevin, with regards to your point, I do think there's a little bit of that fear that that prospect turns into the next role six, role seven, role eight player, the guy who's the perennial All Star, the guy who's the goal glover or the silver slugger. But then I also think GM's probably put a little bit too much onus on this notion of service time. And so you know, yesterday's trade was really fascinating because you trade a premium position player prospect who they're going to control for the next six years for a really solid major league starting pitcher who you can control for two years. And so you know, that is a very calculated decision on both sides parts, and that's why Boston probably receives additional value in this deal because they're giving up six years of control for two. That's always a challenge as well, because that's how you gain cost control in the game. Is for every guy you're signing to a deal that is, you know, fifteen plus million dollars, you have to have four to five guys making the major league minimum to balance out your payroll by and large, and if you have one that is competing at a very high level, they're worth so much value to the team. So there is this balancing act of like how much of your future value are you sacrificing to try to win today. An addition that I would just bring up is, you know, I think so many general managers are so intelligent today, but one of the things we may be missing is just that kind of that thirst to win. And I think we all know the general managers who are super aggressive out there, who are willing to try those prospects in the name of trying to win today. I think they are more general managers out there who want to play it safe and want to keep their prospects for the future to give a chance to win in the future. They're not necessarily willing to forego the chance to win today. I think there's a little bit of an imbalance in the general managers today. When I started in the game, you know, the average GM was kind of the Kevin Towers, Dave Dombrowski, Jim Hendry types of guys. Omar Minaya, Jim Bowden. These guys were going forward at all the time, and they wore that on their sleeves. Now, I think guys are a lot more reserved about that, and they're playing for you know, not only for tomorrow, but they're also playing for three, five, ten years down the road. I think we need some more general managers with a little bit more short term goals to be able to drive some of those types of deals. Otherwise they're going to hold onto those prospects in the name of trying to win down the road.

00:20:50
Speaker 4: Preach Datt, that last part was money right there. Last question for May I'm a shift gears here, Ron Washington, what do you think that? I mean, he's been around the block, he's been everywhere as well, loved. I mean, what do you think he'll bring to the Giants moving forward?

00:21:05
Speaker 1: Here?

00:21:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, Todd, I'm glad you brought up. He is one of my biggest friends and mentors in the game. Just a spectacular human being. Anyone who's touched this guy knows that he just loves the game of baseball at such a high level. He's not a glass half full guy. He's the water's brimming over. He is tremendous. I've never seen a guy who has the impact he has on the morale of a team. Just nobody was ever down when wash was in the clubhouse. He genuinely believed and he espoused when he was the manager of the Texas Rangers, give us the double a roster tank, We're going to kick somebody's butt. And that's basically what he said. Never once in his tenure with the Rangers did he ever come up to me or John Daniels and say, Hey, this guy can't play here or he's not good enough. He always embraced the best that every player had to offer and put them in the ultimate position to succeed. In addition to that, guys, I think he's the best infield I've ever been around. I've heard great things about Perry Hill and a few guys, but he was the best guy I've ever witnessed. He's a great base running guy, tremendous third base coach. I know we won't be doing that for the Giants, but in today's day and age, I'm not sure how many competitive advantages you get from your working coaches you unequivocally do that from Wash. You see what he's how he's impacted every team's defense that he has been part of. You know, Marcus Simeon, Eric Chavez, oz Alby's, all of these guys give him so much credit for becoming the Gold Globe players that they became. And I think on top of that, he's just such a effervescent, spectacular human. So does San Francisco. Giants obviously have a very good left side of the infield. You've got Raphael Devers potentially moving to first base. What better guy to come in and not only make him an average first basement, but if there's anybody out there who can make him an above average first basement, it would be Wash. One of their best prospects, Eldridge is going to be coming up at some point soon. Wash will help him, yet to be determined what they're going to do at second base. He's also going to help the veterans on the left side. Chapman's obviously a perennial Gold Glove domas solid above average defender at short But he's going to help those guys. I think he's going to help the guys in the field. He's going to also help the swagger and attitude in the clubhouse. This is a guy who believes he is going to be a champion. Every time he sets foot on the field. It exudes to all the players around him. He is going to be a huge advantage for the San Francisco Giants.

00:23:29
Speaker 3: All right, last one for me too. Rockies kind of went out and made a let's just call it an interesting hire. What are the Rockies kind of building with who they brought in?

00:23:39
Speaker 2: So, you know, Paul is a exceptionally intelligent individual. He and I happened to grow up in the same neighborhood, played high school baseball against each other, so I've known him for quite some time. You know, I think he gets a lot of credit and credit deserved for being on the advent of bringing analytics into baseball. He had a great career in baseball then left to spend ten years in the NFL, so I think he comes back to baseball even more polished. He's got some additional ideas he's going to have about building a championship team. As you guys know, playing in Colorado is probably the biggest Rubik's cube in all of professional sports. Trying to help turn altitude from what is now one of the biggest atturns to the biggest competitive advantages. And if someone can figure that out, that team has a chance to have a tremendous run, because I think people will be very concerned about having to go play there, especially in playoff type settings. So I think Paul is an extremely intelligent guy. No stone will be left unturned. He's going to be researching altitude from every single angle. And then he partners up with a guy named Josh Burns, who has had a tremendous career in the game. Another good friend of mine. Josh and I went to college together, played baseball in college together, and he got me my first job working for the Colorado Rockies. Josh has been a general manager twice over He's been to the World Series eight times. He has won four of them, one with the Red Sox, three with the Dodgers. He's been instrumental in building out the player development and amateur scouting side for the Dodgers. He's going to bring that knowledge and acum into the Colorado Rockies. I think the Rockies are in great hands right now. Now. The question is what additional changes are they able to make and how will they invest in the players and staff on the field to compliment what Josh and Paul are doing in the front office.

00:25:24
Speaker 1: All right, that last one, and I think this is a fascinating topic that you would have great insight on, and we're going to talk about it right after you leave us. There was an article in The Athletic yesterday called Inside How MLB teams evaluate player makeup from top prospects to big time free agents. It is written by Enosarus and Chandler Rome. It is sparked by an interesting case from Barbaldez had a very public incident that he has a side of a story to most people saw and it looks like he was throwing at his catcher, right, and that sparks the whole makeup conversation. So I'm curious your thoughts on how you would handle a player like that. And we got some inside on how there's videos that are sent out which is pretty common from free agents, and they put a lot in there about his characters. So how do front offices evaluate that? And you know this, right, I'm not speaking for your group, but there are some front offices sometimes that miss where like I'm pretty on the outside and I'll hear like that guy is not good news, and it's like, why did the acquirements? Someone will say to me that team doesn't do good enough homework on makeup.

00:26:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Scott's a great question, and you know, I think it's multi layers. So I just would say this is, you know, I think there's some teams that are very model driven in their decision making, and the bottom line is makeup doesn't really show up well in models. It's not empirical, it's a little bit softer, it's a little more subjective than it is objective. So when you talk about, you know, an eyebrow raised by you guys, when you see a guy sign and you're like, wow, that doesn't seem as if it's going to align, well, it's probably with a team that really isn't putting a ton of value on makeup at all because it's not measurable. I think, in contrast, one thing, I've been Party two and I've been so fortunate in both Texas and Minnesota. One thing that we did is we employed former major league players to really help us sort through this discussion. So in Minnesota, two of our first hires when we got there were LaTroy Hawkins and Tory Hunter. We then eventually added Justin Mornau and Michael Couldiere to the group. And so what we would do is we would give them a list of free agents and say, hey, guys, based upon your personal experience and or your friends in the game, can you find out what is it like to go shoulder to shoulder with this guy in a clubhouse, What is he like on the field, what does he like when things get tough, because we wanted to get firsthand experience and knowledge on those things rather than us speculating. I think it's really tough for scouts to break this down because sometimes we see a guy who hits a pop up in the infield and he doesn't run it out, and also we ascribe all sorts of negative attributes to them. It turns out that has nothing to do with it. So we want to talk to players who've either played with those guys and been in the clubhouse with him, or who can access players or coaches who have been in the clubhouse with him to find out exactly what's going on with these guys, so there's no surprises when we acquire them, and with ram Berveldes specifically, you know, it's such a fascinating case. I actually had a chance to work with Ulysses Cabrera's agent this offseason because I am an independent person right now. He asked my opinion of how our front office is going to perceive him. He did put together a video as you reference God, and the video is fascinating because usually these videos are hype performance videos. This is actually a twenty minute video which really gives you insights into who Cranburvel does is where did he grow up, what is his family like? You know, it's the classic story of a guy growing up in a household with no electricity and no running water and really having to fight for everything throughout his life. It really put the person in perspective, and I think for teams that genuinely care about that this will be a video that will probably open their eyes. For teams that maybe put less of an emphasis on makeup, it may not matter whatsoever, but the reality is, this guy's been a really, really good performer for quite some time. Hits the market a little bit older than some free agents, but no fault of his own. This was because the Houston Astros probably tried to do a few things on the front end to extend his tenure with them. He's a year older, but he is one of these guys, who is, you know, throwing six seven innings every single time he goes out there. I think that's going to get the attention of teams. They're all going to ask him what happened that night when he crossed up the catcher. As long as I think he's accountable, contrite and sincere about his answer, hopefully he will be put in a position where the teams can look past that and he'll find the perfect team and the perfect fit for him to continue to showcase his talents on the mound.

00:29:41
Speaker 1: That's great insight. I didn't know you worked with the team. Even more interesting to hear how that all works. And yeah, I mean it's obvious, it's not in this case something that is hidden because the one incident was very public. So it's cool to hear what goes on behind the scenes to then say, hey, one thing happened for one second about the other billion seconds that this guy exists around your team and what that's going to look like.

00:30:05
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, in Scott, I just would toss it to the players here for a second, Like I always felt in my career when I was evaluating a situation, if a guy was genuinely contrite about what happened, if there was a transgression. And I come from a team where we traded for Josh Hamilton, we signed Matt Bush, these guys had done some things in their lives which were challenging, to say the least. Both of those guys were genuinely accountable to their actions. They were contrite about that, and they were aspirational of doing better. And one of the litmus tests I always talked about was can this person stand in front of a sixth, eighth, or tenth grade class of students and say, hey, listen, I made mistakes. Here were my mistakes, here's what I learned from them. Don't do what I did. And if they can do that, then we're in position. We all want to forgive guys, right, we want to give them second chances, provided that they're genuinely accountable for what transpired.

00:31:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, oh, go ahead, Todd.

00:31:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I mean, honestly, I think at the end of the day, we don't know what he was going through. Uh, people make mistakes. It's how you come back from it. And you give somebody an extra mistake or two, and you see how they come back from and listen, it looked bad, of course it did on TV. You saw what he did. It looked like everything was on purpose, blah blah blah. But guess what, do you know the person. Do you know what he was going through that day? Was there something on his mind? Okay, then let's get to know the guy first before you make judgment. Of course, love it.

00:31:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I couldn't agree anymore. I think a lot of bringing guys into an organization, to your point, And I feel like I'd be a perfect guy for that job that you were speaking of because I played on ten teams. I played with so many different guys. It's hard to judge a guy off of one moment in their career. To Scott's point, that's one second of the billion second s he's lived on Earth. You know, some of these guys, you have no idea where they came from, how they grew up, what they did you know, personally speaking, I had a moment in my career that you know, was the lowest the lows. And if people want to judge me for that one moment in time where I made a mistake, so be it. But if you ask anyone that I played with or that I've been in contact with, coaches, front office players, they tell you that was just, you know, a moment of weakness. I grew from it. I stood up, I was accountable for what I did. I moved on. I did everything I had to do in order to make it right with the group of people that I offended and that I was hurt from. But it would kill me if people still judge me for a moment on the field, in the most competitive environment where I had a moment of weakness. You know, And for Framber, he's been an outstanding picture. To me, what he did is totally forgivable. It was a moment of a weakness, a lapse in judgment. But he shouldn't be defined by, you know, the one moment of his career. He's been way too valuable of a picture to your point, what he brings. He's been in an organization that's been you know, aside from maybe the Dodgers kind of the gold standard of being in a competitive environment and building a culture. So hopefully people will either watch this video or go out and do their research. I've been a part of a lot of organizations where a GM will come down or is always present around the trade deadline and he'll straight up be like, Hey, we're thinking about getting this guy. What have you heard on him? Have you played with him? What's he like? They want to go down? Is he going to fit in this clubhouse?

00:33:34
Speaker 4: You know?

00:33:34
Speaker 3: And if the answer is yes, he's gonna fit in. And if the answer is like, you know, he's a little bit difficult to handle. But I think what we've created in this clubhouse is enough to kind of bring him in and he's not going to be a distraction because the talent is so great. You bring a guy in and you know, people could change depending on their environment and the people are around, they can improve, you know. So hopefully this is just a blip on the radar for him, something we're not talking about, you know, once he signs and just allow his body of work to go kind of speak for him.

00:34:04
Speaker 2: Well, Kevin, I'll add one thing to what you just said. There which is one thing we did in addition to talking to some of our leaders. When we're talking about bringing a guy into the clubhouse, we went and talked to the visiting clubhouse manager and we asked him, Hey, how does this guy conduct himself in the clubhouse? How does he interact with the clubs? You know, these are guys who are you know, he doesn't have to look up to them. He can treat them however they want to. And it's fascinating revealing how players interacted with clubhouse guys. And we canceled trades based upon what we heard from our visiting clubhouse guy in terms of the character we thought that the player may have based upon how he may be mistreated some people in the clubhouse. And we've also enhanced our interest in players based upon the leadership that they showed in the clubhouse. So I think players should understand we're trying to do our homework. We're trying to get the best information we can. But the age old discussion, hey somebody's always looking, I think is somewhat true, Like how do you conduct yourself when you think nobody's looking? Is part of how we're evaluating you. And then the last thing I'll say, is we preach to our kids all the time. You're not defined by the adversity, but you're defined by how you respond to the university. We should afford our teammates the same luxury we afford our children.

00:35:21
Speaker 1: I like that, and I like bringing in players to help, and players that like the ones you're looking at on the screen here, because if they're doing podcasts and digital shows and they're just delivering real talk all the time, it's good. You don't want a fluff guy that's just gonna be like, yeah, everyone's okay, Like you need somebody who's going to tell you, hey, this is really how this guy is. So I like that that. This was great. I really appreciate it. Great to catch up with you again. Totally different combo this way, without the catchers. They'll probably be back next time we chat. But encouraging everyone also to check out your new show, Rosters to rings, check out the pod wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks dad, good to talk to you.

00:35:57
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on guys. Always a pleasure.

00:36:00
Speaker 1: That's that Levine, longtime baseball executive. Let's just bring this in for a couple minutes to wrap it up, because it does come from that article guys, specifically on Framberbaldez KP. You provided a great context on what happened and how you personally feel like you're someone that would forgive the situation look at it as a one off. The way our world works nowadays is something like that goes viral and somebody just I don't want to say, cancels them forever, but they're like, oh, I would never want him on my team, And hey, I get a little drastic sometimes like that. I'm not going to lie, right, I didn't play, So I'm looking at it from a different sphere. I'm trying to look at it as if I own a team and he costs one hundred and fifty million dollars? Am I okay with that? I'm not saying, hey, am I going to have another incident just like that? But is the character in line?

00:36:47
Speaker 2: Right?

00:36:47
Speaker 1: Is this guy somebody that I feel like I can trust? That's not going to be a problem because we know that he's a good pitcher, we know that he can pitch in a playoff game, we know that he can be a number one or two starter for a team for the next several years. But how do you think it owner looks at that look it.

00:37:02
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to get into specific names here, but there there are people employed by teams, players that have done a lot worse. And you know, it's recent news. So and obviously the timing for him would never would have been good. But for his own individual you know, free agency, the timing couldn't be any worse. If this was four or five years ago, people are probably talking about it. The only reason it's still relevant is he recently did it. He's about to be a free agent, so you have to factor that in. But you know, to that's point, you know, we we should give people a little bit more grace. We should give people the ability to go out make an apology if it's sincere, give him a give them an opportunity to to to prove people wrong. And teams are not dumb. Teams are going out and doing their homework. Much to his point, and I love that conversation, being able to get into the mind of a GM and hear all these sort of things, you know, the visiting clubhouse guy, the travel secretary, your nutrition's, your chefs, all these people they're gonna reach out to. You know, I in my opinion alex Anthopolis is one of the best gms in baseball because he's so real. He comes and talks to his players. And when I was in Atlanta, when I was in Toronto, most recently in Atlanta, these things would come up all the time. You know, hey, we're thinking about getting this guy. He would come sit at you know, launch or dinner with four or five of us and be like, hey, I know you played with this guy. What do you got on him? Will he fit in? You know I heard this. Do you think that's true? You know I talked to this person, you know, so it's really it is an important factor. But I don't think any one player should be defined by any moment on the field. Give him a chance to explain himself. And like you said, you've never walked them out on any one of these shoes. You have no idea what this guy had come, where he had come from, the amount of adversity had faced in his life for him to be judged on this one cross up of his picture, where yes, it did look very intentional. You could look on the face that he was obviously upset with, you know, maybe the way he was calling a game. But this guy grew up in a place that didn't have running water, probably slept on the floor. Like, let that be kind of the foundation of this guy's character more than this moment that kind of went viral.

00:39:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good insight. And hey, my last point on this It says in the article eighty seconds into a twenty five minute video, the content switches from on field results to flushing out what kind of person Bramberbaldez is.

00:39:25
Speaker 2: That's cool.

00:39:25
Speaker 1: I'm just like, whoa twenty five minutes? We're doing a Netflix stock Let's let's maybe pair it down a little bit. I don't know if you're going to keep tod Father on twenty five minutes on anything? Right?

00:39:36
Speaker 2: Nope?

00:39:36
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, Yeah.

00:39:38
Speaker 1: What's the what's the sweet spot? Top Father?

00:39:40
Speaker 2: Maybe five?

00:39:40
Speaker 1: Can I get five out of you? If it's a good story.

00:39:43
Speaker 4: Now you didn't get me, you give me eight to twelve? Okay?

00:39:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, me talked to you to this to this point too, Like, I mean, we talked about a guy poping up of the infield and jogging down the first base like that. People don't know the the entirety of you know, what a player is going through, Like there's a lot of times you're playing banged up and you've been told, hey, don't run hard down the line. I mean, I know that's a microcosm of you know, what was happening, but like we're just so quick to judge players from what we see and what is put on Twitter or Instagram and it becomes these viral moments. But there's so much that goes on behind the scenes. Like you know, you could have a newborn at home and not have a lot of sleep, and you could just you know, not be in your right mind and go out and do something and you're judged for It's like, at the end of the day, we're human beings. We have emotions, we have problems outside the field, we have lives outside the field. Like things happen, you know, but if you can stand up and maybe that was maybe to his fault he didn't get in front of the camera after that happened and said, hey, I made a mistake. It was a lapse of judgment, you know, like I wasn't vibing with my catcher, I was upset, I made a mistake or I got crossed up. I don't know what the scenario was, but the fact that he hasn't answered those questions. You know, maybe that's you know, maybe the bigger story here, but it's not what he did, you know, allow people an opportunity to kind of, you know, have a comeback story.

00:41:09
Speaker 1: That's my only thing, guys. I know we got to run, but it's hard when you didn't get the public apology, kind of got the denial and maybe things happened behind the scenes, but it helps, like it would help him. I know it sucks and maybe I'm wrong here, guys, but everyone that looked at the video kind of feels the same way. I wish that he would have just come out or even now and said, like, I messed up, I'm a human. Can you feel me on this one? I apologize like forgive me to the public and forever, and I think it would have played out better.

00:41:38
Speaker 2: That's me.

00:41:39
Speaker 1: I think people do give forgiveness, but it seemed like there was a denial at the time and we've never really gotten it. I'm sure the conversation's different with teams, but that's the main issue I have. Do you guys feel me on that one?

00:41:50
Speaker 2: Like if he just.

00:41:51
Speaker 1: Comes back and says that that part I think makes it easier it's hard to look at the video and be like that was a cross up. That was a real genuine cross up.

00:41:59
Speaker 4: It's because and I think the biggest issue of the whole thing, and I'll just button it up, it's because he did it to his own teammate. You know. It wasn't like, it wasn't like he did it to somebody he didn't like, you know, he did like, what was that about? And that's something that'll stick with him, you know. And there's far more horror stories. Don't get me wrong. The guy's okay, it could have been much worse, don't get me wrong. But yes, he did it to his own teammate. And that's that's the problem that people are going to have with