Episode 177: Leveraging Native Biology and No-Till Strategies with Bob Tillman

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Hi

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friends, this is John.

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Welcome back to the Region of

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Agriculture podcast.

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Today I'm here with an

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interesting character.

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We're all going to find out how

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interesting. Bob Tillman from

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Paso Robles, California.

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Bob,

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thanks for being here.

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I'm uncertain where this

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conversation is going to go,

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given the comment that you just

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made about wanting to figure out

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who John Kemp is.

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We'll see how this whole

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conversation evolves.

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But tell us a little bit about

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your operation and the context

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that you are

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growing wine in.

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OK,

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well, good morning, John.

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Nice talking with you.

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So I'm

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a wine grower. It's my second

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career, actually.

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I did a

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34 year career in the

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electronics business and

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launched a wine operation in

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2003 here in Paso

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Robles.

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And so

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my vineyard sits in the

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mountains a

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little bit west of the town of

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Paso Robles. I

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have 32 acres of grapes growing

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on top of a pretty steep

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mountainside.

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and maybe a little bit of

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context for Paso Robles.

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It's a fairly extreme

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Mediterranean climate, so it

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rained a little bit over the

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weekend, which was shocking.

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I thought we were done a month

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ago actually, but I have a

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feeling we're now done and it

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probably won't rain again until

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Thanksgiving or so.

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So we're in for a

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very long dry spell and some

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years we go without even seeing

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a cloud for months on end.

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Other aspects of the of the

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vineyard that might be of

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interest as we chat here is the

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kind of the soil situation, the

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Coast Range sits west of Paso.

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So as you leave town, it rears

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up,

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I don't know, maybe 500,

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800 feet or something like that.

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And it's basically just faulted

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sedimentary rock, some

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limestone, some shale.

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with a fairly shallow,

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in my case, true loam, sometimes

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clay,

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topsoil.

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And the other aspect of it is

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extremely irregular.

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You can

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walk 10 feet and find yourself

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in

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a fairly different situation in

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terms of the, mostly the

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topsoil. It can be anywhere

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from,

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I don't know, you can bury a

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probe in it easily, or you can

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barely get six inches before you

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hit a rock.

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So that's kind of the general

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picture of what's going on.

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What different varieties of wine

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grapes are you growing?

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So I have focused on grapes that

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are known as Rhone varieties.

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They're named after the

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Rhone River of France.

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That's where Julius Caesar

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marched in, you know, 2000 years

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ago,

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planted olives and grapes and

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built a few aqueducts.

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And

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here we are today, those same

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grapes are being grown.

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Any particular varietal names

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that people might recognize?

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So the main ones that I have

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planted are Syrah, Grenache and

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Morved.

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Morved is often unknown, but

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that's a really, it's quite a

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nice grape.

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And we have several whites.

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We grow Marsan, Roussan,

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we grow Viognier,

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Grenache Blanc, and Pequot

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Blanc. So

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we actually have nine different

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varieties on our 32 acres.

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Are you doing your own

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winemaking as well?

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I was.

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For the first 13 years, I was

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the winemaker, actually.

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and very much less involved in

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the actual growing side of

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things.

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In 2020,

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I was joined by a young lady

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that took over the winemaking

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for me, and since the last five

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or six years, I really focused

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hard on the growing side.

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Prior to that,

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when we

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planted, in 2003,

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we worked with a vineyard

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management company.

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I was coming out of

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the electronics business and I

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was pretty clear that I didn't

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know how to grow a darn thing

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hardly.

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And so they actually helped a

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lot in terms of finding the site

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and

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getting the vineyard installed

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and getting all the

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infrastructure in place to

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provide water and keep the deer

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out and that kind of thing.

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And then over time, we

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collaborated more and more and

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eventually brought

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it in -house in

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2017

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and then in 2020, I moved in

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pretty much full time working on

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the vineyard side.

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Yeah.

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So how, how has your operation.

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shifted over now almost 23 years

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at this point.

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Your management practices at the

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beginning versus your management

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practices now. How has that

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whole dynamic evolved?

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That's an interesting story,

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John. It's kind of like the

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bumbling of an unconscious

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competent person, I would say.

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How can an unconscious person be

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competent?

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Well, just by sheer luck, I

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suppose.

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Luck and maybe just thinking

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about stuff and trying to

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mimic what makes sense.

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So yeah,

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kind of the

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chronology of the thing is the

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property,

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well, just back up a hair,

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part of running a winery is that

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you get to know people coming in

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to purchase wine.

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And

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about a year ago, the sons of

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the original owners of that

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property came in, sons and

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daughters. So I got to know them

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and learn a

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fair amount about what happened.

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It's a pretty steep

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mountainside.

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It was cleared in the 20s,

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1920s.

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about 60 acres or so were

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cleared,

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so I still have about 80 acres

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of

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woods all around me.

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And they used it for, they did

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dry farm barley,

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and they grazed some cattle on

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it, and they had a walnut,

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the dry farm walnut orchard.

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But in around 1960 or so,

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for whatever reason, the family

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left the place, and it just

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basically sat fallow for about

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40 years before we appeared

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on the scene. So we were

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starting off with almost virgin

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ground, if you think about it.

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And so, what we did was, when we

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first planted,

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we were pursuing a conventional

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sustainable type of agriculture.

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And it's sort of the chronology.

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Year one, 2005,

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we planted. It took us

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almost two years before we had

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all the prep done.

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In 2005,

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in the fall, after the vines

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were dormant, we went in and we

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disked.

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Well, maybe I should back up.

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Before we planted, we actually

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ripped

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just the vine rows,

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which turned out to be more of a

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Let's see how many rocks we can

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surface program than anything

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else.

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So that we did do that.

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And then in 2005,

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we cultivated every

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other row and planted

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a nice UC Davis cover crop

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mixture.

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And in 2006,

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about July or so, I was talking

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with the vineyard manager

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gentleman, and we determined

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that we couldn't tell which row

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we had disced and planted the

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previous year.

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the native grasses that were so

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self -selected to that site had

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just taken over.

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So, we stopped that.

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So, that was our first kind of

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unconscious competent move, is

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we didn't till ever again.

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That was one step.

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Second step, the first couple of

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years, we used an herbicide down

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the vine row,

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which probably makes sense.

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And if you think about it, those

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young vines are trying to

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compete with a very voracious

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native cover that's there.

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But we stopped that after,

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I don't know, two or three

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years. I don't remember exactly.

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Mostly just because,

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well, I have herbicide around,

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didn't we? It seemed like it

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really wasn't necessary.

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So, I think very early on,

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just from common sense, we ended

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up with a couple of really good

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moves.

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And

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then it kind of drifted on from

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there, actually.

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2013,

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we shifted.

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When we first planted it, I had

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two blocks that we farmed

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organically.

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I was kind of a newbie to the

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scene. We were trying a little

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bit of everything.

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So two out of our 12 blocks were

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organic. And around 2013, we

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noticed that,

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gosh, it seems just as easy to

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farm those as it does these

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other guys over here.

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The main differences were we

293
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:41,720
were using some synthetic

294
00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:44,139
fungicides on the non -organic

295
00:08:44,139 --> 00:08:45,580
ones. So we just stopped doing

296
00:08:45,580 --> 00:08:46,379
that.

297
00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,100
And we had been doing some

298
00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:49,220
synthetic fertilizing,

299
00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:51,299
fertigation, and we stopped that

300
00:08:51,299 --> 00:08:52,099
also.

301
00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:54,319
Turned out,

302
00:08:54,319 --> 00:08:55,460
given our climate, I don't

303
00:08:55,460 --> 00:08:56,779
recommend it necessarily for

304
00:08:56,779 --> 00:08:58,500
everybody, but we have this very

305
00:08:58,500 --> 00:09:00,080
benign Mediterranean climate

306
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:01,559
here, very low pest pressure.

307
00:09:02,629 --> 00:09:04,029
So suddenly we were organic

308
00:09:04,029 --> 00:09:05,330
without really thinking about it

309
00:09:05,330 --> 00:09:06,129
very much.

310
00:09:09,299 --> 00:09:10,480
And then in

311
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,539
2017,

312
00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:15,359
I

313
00:09:15,549 --> 00:09:17,529
brought the management in house,

314
00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:20,049
mostly because I felt like,

315
00:09:20,110 --> 00:09:20,909
okay,

316
00:09:21,399 --> 00:09:22,659
I could save a little money if I

317
00:09:22,659 --> 00:09:24,139
do that, and I feel like I've

318
00:09:24,139 --> 00:09:25,759
got enough knowledge that maybe

319
00:09:25,759 --> 00:09:26,950
I could pull it off.

320
00:09:27,049 --> 00:09:27,849
So we did that.

321
00:09:28,350 --> 00:09:30,809
Well, it sounds like management

322
00:09:30,809 --> 00:09:32,350
at that point was essentially

323
00:09:32,350 --> 00:09:34,129
pruning management, because if

324
00:09:34,129 --> 00:09:35,149
you weren't fertilizing, you

325
00:09:35,149 --> 00:09:35,970
weren't tilling, you weren't

326
00:09:35,970 --> 00:09:36,909
doing herbicides, you weren't

327
00:09:36,909 --> 00:09:38,090
doing fungicides, I mean, what's

328
00:09:38,090 --> 00:09:38,889
left?

329
00:09:38,899 --> 00:09:40,080
Well, we were doing this.

330
00:09:40,129 --> 00:09:41,149
We were just doing organic

331
00:09:41,149 --> 00:09:42,289
versions of them.

332
00:09:43,269 --> 00:09:44,069
The

333
00:09:43,899 --> 00:09:46,059
mildew is for real.

334
00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,720
To this day, we continue to

335
00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:49,919
fight that. In fact, we're just

336
00:09:49,919 --> 00:09:50,940
trying pinyon this year.

337
00:09:51,340 --> 00:09:52,360
Hope we have our fingers crossed

338
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:53,159
on that one.

339
00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:55,679
I'm actually kind of at the

340
00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:56,740
stage where I don't have my

341
00:09:56,740 --> 00:09:57,919
fingers crossed about pinyon.

342
00:09:58,019 --> 00:09:59,120
My confidence level is pretty

343
00:09:59,120 --> 00:09:59,980
high at this point.

344
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:01,039
Hallelujah.

345
00:10:00,940 --> 00:10:01,980
I'm praying for you, buddy.

346
00:10:04,169 --> 00:10:05,129
I would love that.

347
00:10:06,029 --> 00:10:08,730
And we did organic fertigations

348
00:10:08,730 --> 00:10:10,389
during those years as well,

349
00:10:10,450 --> 00:10:11,789
which we continue to do to this

350
00:10:11,789 --> 00:10:12,589
day.

351
00:10:13,230 --> 00:10:14,809
But when we brought it in house,

352
00:10:17,620 --> 00:10:18,919
a lot of times, you know,

353
00:10:18,980 --> 00:10:19,779
people,

354
00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,460
they start the season off with a

355
00:10:21,639 --> 00:10:23,320
kind of a fertilizer shot.

356
00:10:23,460 --> 00:10:25,139
And I skipped that part and I

357
00:10:25,139 --> 00:10:26,759
waited until bloom time.

358
00:10:26,820 --> 00:10:27,620
And then we did the leaf

359
00:10:27,620 --> 00:10:28,679
samples. It's sort of the

360
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,470
traditional way of checking on

361
00:10:31,470 --> 00:10:33,309
the nutrition and the vines seem

362
00:10:33,309 --> 00:10:34,109
to be fine.

363
00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:37,009
I basically pretty much stopped

364
00:10:37,009 --> 00:10:38,309
fertilizing in general.

365
00:10:38,450 --> 00:10:39,289
It just didn't seem to be

366
00:10:39,289 --> 00:10:40,470
necessary at all.

367
00:10:43,730 --> 00:10:44,529
We,

368
00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:46,720
the other thing we did was, uh,

369
00:10:48,830 --> 00:10:50,950
we, we had been mowing, uh, you

370
00:10:50,950 --> 00:10:52,409
know, but in the mid rows and,

371
00:10:52,649 --> 00:10:53,449
and like,

372
00:10:53,789 --> 00:10:54,589
like good

373
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,819
traditional farmers, we mowed

374
00:10:56,819 --> 00:10:58,120
low. We wanted to, you didn't

375
00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:59,039
want those terrible weeds

376
00:10:59,039 --> 00:10:59,839
growing out there.

377
00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:01,819
Uh, we decided that wasn't such

378
00:11:01,819 --> 00:11:03,299
a bad deal. So we basically

379
00:11:03,299 --> 00:11:04,680
raised our mower as high as we

380
00:11:04,680 --> 00:11:05,480
could get it. And

381
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,379
so we were mowing and leaving a

382
00:11:07,379 --> 00:11:08,259
five or six inch.

383
00:11:09,419 --> 00:11:11,960
stubble behind, which tended to

384
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,159
make it through pretty much this

385
00:11:13,159 --> 00:11:13,959
season.

386
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:16,159
And

387
00:11:16,069 --> 00:11:18,470
we transitioned to a weed knife.

388
00:11:18,629 --> 00:11:20,110
It's a Clemens is the name of

389
00:11:20,110 --> 00:11:22,269
the product. It goes, it sort of

390
00:11:22,269 --> 00:11:24,309
articulates in and out under the

391
00:11:24,309 --> 00:11:25,569
vines as you drive a tractor

392
00:11:25,569 --> 00:11:26,369
along.

393
00:11:27,289 --> 00:11:28,690
And we decided that we would

394
00:11:28,690 --> 00:11:30,210
start putting compost on.

395
00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:31,529
So, we did

396
00:11:32,289 --> 00:11:34,990
three tons an acre for about

397
00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:35,839
three years.

398
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:38,519
And at

399
00:11:39,429 --> 00:11:40,229
some point I,

400
00:11:41,009 --> 00:11:41,809
again,

401
00:11:42,279 --> 00:11:43,580
reading and trying to figure

402
00:11:43,580 --> 00:11:44,379
stuff out.

403
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:47,779
So here, I don't know if this is

404
00:11:47,779 --> 00:11:48,980
right. I'm, I figure I'm talking

405
00:11:48,980 --> 00:11:49,980
to the person who really knows,

406
00:11:50,059 --> 00:11:51,460
but I'll give you my version of

407
00:11:51,460 --> 00:11:52,259
this thing.

408
00:11:52,919 --> 00:11:54,620
So I look at compost and I say,

409
00:11:54,659 --> 00:11:57,259
okay, it's 60 % dormant microbes

410
00:11:57,259 --> 00:11:58,539
and 40 % humus.

411
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,120
And I'm, I've got this spreader

412
00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:02,360
and I'm spreading a very thin

413
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:03,919
layer of it and I'm unable to

414
00:12:03,919 --> 00:12:04,919
really incorporate it.

415
00:12:04,940 --> 00:12:06,059
And I'm doing it in the fall.

416
00:12:06,830 --> 00:12:08,549
which may or may not get a rain

417
00:12:08,549 --> 00:12:10,690
shortly thereafter, often not.

418
00:12:11,389 --> 00:12:12,350
So I figured that

419
00:12:13,470 --> 00:12:14,629
probably most of the microbes

420
00:12:14,629 --> 00:12:16,350
were dead before because the

421
00:12:16,350 --> 00:12:18,090
ultraviolet pounding down on

422
00:12:18,090 --> 00:12:19,070
them. So I shifted over to

423
00:12:19,070 --> 00:12:19,870
compost tea

424
00:12:20,860 --> 00:12:23,039
and invested in a brewer and

425
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:25,649
started approaching an

426
00:12:26,509 --> 00:12:27,649
irrigation is

427
00:12:28,149 --> 00:12:30,149
not so much watering vines as

428
00:12:30,149 --> 00:12:31,970
injecting goodies into the soil.

429
00:12:32,110 --> 00:12:33,289
So that was kind of my MO.

430
00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:36,279
So

431
00:12:37,069 --> 00:12:38,450
that was the next step in the

432
00:12:38,450 --> 00:12:39,250
evolution of things.

433
00:12:39,289 --> 00:12:41,149
So we're down now to hardly ever

434
00:12:41,149 --> 00:12:41,949
fertilizing.

435
00:12:44,269 --> 00:12:45,830
organic mildew control and a

436
00:12:45,830 --> 00:12:46,870
bunch of compost tea.

437
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:49,059
And the vines seem to be doing

438
00:12:49,059 --> 00:12:50,159
great. The wines are good.

439
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:53,139
And then in 2020,

440
00:12:54,940 --> 00:12:56,360
a young lady came aboard, took

441
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:57,159
over the winemaking,

442
00:12:57,419 --> 00:12:58,659
and it freed me up.

443
00:12:58,799 --> 00:12:59,639
And so I

444
00:12:59,990 --> 00:13:00,970
started really getting

445
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:02,500
in there and causing a lot of

446
00:13:02,500 --> 00:13:04,220
trouble on the vineyard side of

447
00:13:04,220 --> 00:13:05,019
things.

448
00:13:04,899 --> 00:13:05,919
One of the first things I did

449
00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:07,740
was one of these total nutrition

450
00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:08,539
tests.

451
00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:10,259
I went to Regen

452
00:13:10,830 --> 00:13:13,110
Ag Lab and got

453
00:13:13,930 --> 00:13:15,309
back the information for what if

454
00:13:15,309 --> 00:13:17,370
I really consumed all of the

455
00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:19,049
nutrients available in my soil,

456
00:13:20,259 --> 00:13:21,559
So I got these numbers, they're

457
00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:23,419
huge, as you know, and I

458
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:25,669
found a paper out of Australia

459
00:13:25,669 --> 00:13:26,850
where guys had figured out

460
00:13:27,419 --> 00:13:29,279
if you took a ton of grapes out

461
00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:30,450
of a vineyard, how many did you

462
00:13:30,450 --> 00:13:31,789
consume of all these nutrients?

463
00:13:32,070 --> 00:13:33,350
So by simply dividing,

464
00:13:34,379 --> 00:13:36,000
you can determine how many years

465
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,220
of stuff you have in the soil.

466
00:13:37,419 --> 00:13:39,220
And what I found was that the,

467
00:13:39,299 --> 00:13:40,099
uh,

468
00:13:40,299 --> 00:13:41,919
so the range was for potassium,

469
00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:44,399
I had 644 years worth in my

470
00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:45,199
soil.

471
00:13:45,210 --> 00:13:47,710
And for iron, I had 7 .2 million

472
00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:49,750
years worth. So I figured, okay,

473
00:13:49,889 --> 00:13:50,689
it's

474
00:13:50,860 --> 00:13:52,259
not necessary to put stuff in.

475
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,240
I just need to figure out how to

476
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:54,039
get it out of there.

477
00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:54,879
That's, that's the.

478
00:13:55,620 --> 00:13:57,940
And that was probably accounting

479
00:13:57,940 --> 00:13:59,419
for what? The top six inches or

480
00:13:59,419 --> 00:14:00,539
the top four inches of soil

481
00:14:00,539 --> 00:14:01,339
profile?

482
00:14:01,379 --> 00:14:02,600
Exactly. Six inches.

483
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:04,620
You got it. So, I mean, multiply

484
00:14:04,620 --> 00:14:05,419
it out.

485
00:14:05,899 --> 00:14:07,519
And how deep does a grapefruit

486
00:14:07,519 --> 00:14:08,319
system go?

487
00:14:08,529 --> 00:14:09,329
Well,

488
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,220
we just recently did a pit and I

489
00:14:13,220 --> 00:14:14,019
found

490
00:14:14,419 --> 00:14:15,960
roots as big as my little

491
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,080
finger, five feet down.

492
00:14:19,029 --> 00:14:20,470
It's a little bit misleading in

493
00:14:20,470 --> 00:14:21,590
the sense that at that point

494
00:14:21,590 --> 00:14:22,750
they were in really rocky

495
00:14:22,929 --> 00:14:24,029
material.

496
00:14:25,179 --> 00:14:26,120
There was about where we were

497
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,700
digging was one of the more rich

498
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:28,600
spots, actually.

499
00:14:29,309 --> 00:14:30,850
We had about two feet of really

500
00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:32,289
nice topsoil. And then

501
00:14:32,930 --> 00:14:34,190
after that, it sort of

502
00:14:34,950 --> 00:14:36,649
looked almost like

503
00:14:37,019 --> 00:14:38,620
small rocks about the size of

504
00:14:38,620 --> 00:14:39,759
your fist that are kind of

505
00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:41,759
jumbled together and roots able

506
00:14:41,759 --> 00:14:42,720
to move down through them.

507
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:47,450
So, the last few years I've been

508
00:14:47,450 --> 00:14:48,629
trying to figure out how do we

509
00:14:48,629 --> 00:14:49,970
get these microbes working for

510
00:14:49,970 --> 00:14:50,769
us?

511
00:14:50,470 --> 00:14:51,370
We clearly have

512
00:14:52,059 --> 00:14:53,240
everything we need.

513
00:14:55,090 --> 00:14:56,990
And then about 22 is when I

514
00:14:56,990 --> 00:14:58,830
discovered AEA, going

515
00:15:00,549 --> 00:15:01,549
online and searching

516
00:15:02,470 --> 00:15:03,289
and

517
00:15:04,129 --> 00:15:05,149
I ended up talking to a lady

518
00:15:05,149 --> 00:15:06,309
named Rachel. I don't know if

519
00:15:06,309 --> 00:15:07,289
she's still around with you

520
00:15:07,289 --> 00:15:08,149
guys. Oh, yeah.

521
00:15:08,269 --> 00:15:09,309
Yeah. Rochelle's an important

522
00:15:09,309 --> 00:15:10,109
part of our team.

523
00:15:10,009 --> 00:15:10,809
Okay, Rochelle.

524
00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:11,649
Okay. So

525
00:15:12,059 --> 00:15:15,419
that's when you shifted from

526
00:15:15,639 --> 00:15:17,220
unconscious competence to

527
00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:18,019
conscious competence?

528
00:15:18,279 --> 00:15:19,639
A little bit. I became a little

529
00:15:19,639 --> 00:15:20,720
bit more conscious at that

530
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:21,519
point. Yeah.

531
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:23,080
Just a little bit.

532
00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:24,279
Still working on that part.

533
00:15:25,889 --> 00:15:26,950
So, at any rate, then we jumped

534
00:15:26,950 --> 00:15:27,750
into this.

535
00:15:27,669 --> 00:15:29,750
Pedro got involved and

536
00:15:30,409 --> 00:15:32,529
started using sap analysis and

537
00:15:32,529 --> 00:15:33,789
started to add the foliars,

538
00:15:33,870 --> 00:15:34,669
which

539
00:15:34,419 --> 00:15:35,679
was kind of an eye -opener,

540
00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:37,279
really, to realize some of the

541
00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:38,179
micros were still,

542
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:39,980
I needed, I need help there.

543
00:15:40,299 --> 00:15:41,099
And we've

544
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:43,080
been, we've been after that.

545
00:15:43,159 --> 00:15:43,959
And I also have

546
00:15:44,309 --> 00:15:46,490
at that point decided, okay, I'm

547
00:15:46,490 --> 00:15:47,850
going to increase the diversity

548
00:15:47,850 --> 00:15:49,870
of my cover crop, which

549
00:15:51,259 --> 00:15:52,779
I still haven't achieved that.

550
00:15:53,019 --> 00:15:54,419
That's about four years later.

551
00:15:55,259 --> 00:15:57,360
But I invested in a

552
00:15:57,889 --> 00:15:59,529
no -till seed drill and

553
00:16:00,259 --> 00:16:02,440
got to know the guys at Green

554
00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,440
Cover and did all this analysis,

555
00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,759
all these families of cover

556
00:16:07,139 --> 00:16:08,059
that I was going to plant.

557
00:16:08,179 --> 00:16:10,399
And I've studiously done so for

558
00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:11,199
about four years.

559
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:12,120
And

560
00:16:12,610 --> 00:16:14,629
so far, I've got very, very

561
00:16:14,629 --> 00:16:16,990
little take. I guess 5 % or so

562
00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:18,070
of those seeds actually have

563
00:16:18,070 --> 00:16:18,870
survived.

564
00:16:19,450 --> 00:16:20,250
Yeah.

565
00:16:20,620 --> 00:16:21,779
Is that because of the vigor of

566
00:16:21,779 --> 00:16:22,960
your native material?

567
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:23,879
Yeah.

568
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:25,879
I had some guys in just this

569
00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:29,080
spring from the local branch of

570
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,480
the California Native Plant

571
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,559
Society or something to do

572
00:16:34,029 --> 00:16:36,330
an inventory of what's going on

573
00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:37,129
out there.

574
00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,220
And it's remarkable the

575
00:16:39,220 --> 00:16:40,680
diversity. They found 37

576
00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:41,940
different species.

577
00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,019
I don't know about families.

578
00:16:43,139 --> 00:16:44,019
I haven't had time to figure

579
00:16:44,019 --> 00:16:44,819
that out yet.

580
00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:48,080
But the problem is that about

581
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,000
eight of those species

582
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,740
represented about 80 % of the

583
00:16:51,740 --> 00:16:53,240
growth. And they were all

584
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,940
described as invasive European

585
00:16:54,940 --> 00:16:55,740
grasses.

586
00:16:58,210 --> 00:16:59,490
Invasiveness is in the eye of

587
00:16:59,490 --> 00:17:00,750
the beholder, just to be clear.

588
00:17:01,169 --> 00:17:02,389
Exactly right. And I think at

589
00:17:02,389 --> 00:17:04,230
this point in time, it's a

590
00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:05,409
done deal.

591
00:17:05,569 --> 00:17:06,369
They're now native.

592
00:17:07,049 --> 00:17:08,250
They dominate the area.

593
00:17:10,259 --> 00:17:11,059
So that's

594
00:17:11,190 --> 00:17:12,049
kind of where I'm at.

595
00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:12,970
I've been

596
00:17:13,450 --> 00:17:15,809
focused. What I've been doing is

597
00:17:15,809 --> 00:17:16,869
trying to devote about half of

598
00:17:16,869 --> 00:17:18,190
my year to focusing on the cover

599
00:17:18,190 --> 00:17:18,990
crop

600
00:17:19,230 --> 00:17:20,230
in about half the year.

601
00:17:20,259 --> 00:17:21,700
year focusing on the vines.

602
00:17:22,450 --> 00:17:24,170
And the dormant period is the

603
00:17:24,170 --> 00:17:24,990
cover crop time.

604
00:17:25,089 --> 00:17:25,889
So we've been doing

605
00:17:26,299 --> 00:17:28,160
a lot of efforts to try and

606
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:29,299
increase the diversity by

607
00:17:29,299 --> 00:17:30,200
planting in there.

608
00:17:30,710 --> 00:17:32,210
And we've experimented quite a

609
00:17:32,210 --> 00:17:33,690
bit with how we terminate them.

610
00:17:35,450 --> 00:17:36,250
So what we're doing,

611
00:17:38,059 --> 00:17:40,579
we purchased a mower that

612
00:17:40,579 --> 00:17:42,380
articulates under the vines.

613
00:17:42,519 --> 00:17:44,200
So we're able to

614
00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:46,349
kind of sort of mow under the

615
00:17:46,349 --> 00:17:47,609
vines. It's not super effective,

616
00:17:47,730 --> 00:17:48,529
to be honest.

617
00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:52,299
And I've been trying to crimp in

618
00:17:52,299 --> 00:17:53,099
the middles,

619
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,059
and I'm

620
00:17:55,529 --> 00:17:57,109
happy to report on my third try,

621
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:58,210
I think I actually got it.

622
00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,000
The problem is that the site is

623
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,420
just droughty enough that

624
00:18:03,859 --> 00:18:05,440
depending on the year, the cover

625
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,680
crop may or may not be very

626
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,480
high. Like for us, if it gets up

627
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:09,680
to our knees, we're pretty

628
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:10,599
excited about it.

629
00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:13,509
And some years it's not that

630
00:18:13,509 --> 00:18:14,549
high and the crimper doesn't

631
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:15,349
have much hope.

632
00:18:15,670 --> 00:18:17,430
It just doesn't have enough stem

633
00:18:17,430 --> 00:18:18,230
to work with.

634
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:19,799
But I found,

635
00:18:20,279 --> 00:18:21,079
I kept,

636
00:18:21,279 --> 00:18:22,500
I went through two different

637
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:23,759
crimper designs, and then this

638
00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:24,599
year, finally, a little bit

639
00:18:24,599 --> 00:18:26,039
different, like sharper blades,

640
00:18:26,690 --> 00:18:27,650
so that they're,

641
00:18:28,029 --> 00:18:29,109
they're not quite razor sharp,

642
00:18:29,150 --> 00:18:30,130
but they're, they're a good,

643
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:31,509
they got a good edge on them,

644
00:18:31,609 --> 00:18:32,409
and

645
00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:33,750
seems to have worked, actually.

646
00:18:33,930 --> 00:18:35,029
There's a few spots where it's,

647
00:18:35,609 --> 00:18:36,730
the grass is short enough that

648
00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:38,009
it really couldn't get a,

649
00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:40,579
you know, get a bite on it, but

650
00:18:41,210 --> 00:18:42,650
I don't really care, just gonna

651
00:18:42,650 --> 00:18:43,450
leave it be.

652
00:18:44,630 --> 00:18:45,430
So that's kind of,

653
00:18:45,630 --> 00:18:46,430
yeah.

654
00:18:47,009 --> 00:18:48,549
Yeah, you've been on an

655
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:49,349
interesting journey.

656
00:18:50,730 --> 00:18:51,529
The,

657
00:18:52,329 --> 00:18:53,129
That's interesting.

658
00:18:53,589 --> 00:18:54,450
Can you hear a lot of background

659
00:18:54,450 --> 00:18:55,289
noise on my end?

660
00:18:56,509 --> 00:18:57,809
Seems every time it's

661
00:18:58,220 --> 00:18:59,859
a pouring rain thunderstorm

662
00:18:59,859 --> 00:19:01,059
outside my windows here.

663
00:19:01,259 --> 00:19:02,059
Is that what's going on?

664
00:19:02,099 --> 00:19:03,180
I hear occasionally.

665
00:19:04,569 --> 00:19:05,369
I

666
00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:11,259
want to dig deeper into the

667
00:19:11,259 --> 00:19:13,380
compost tea applications.

668
00:19:13,579 --> 00:19:14,759
If I followed your timeline

669
00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:15,920
correctly, you had started the

670
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:17,720
compost tea applications for

671
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,319
several years before you started

672
00:19:20,319 --> 00:19:21,299
working with AEA.

673
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:22,539
And I'm intrigued by,

674
00:19:23,940 --> 00:19:25,359
I've been so impressed with some

675
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:26,299
of the things that I've observed

676
00:19:26,299 --> 00:19:27,500
from biology.

677
00:19:27,940 --> 00:19:29,339
And it seems to me like you had

678
00:19:29,339 --> 00:19:30,720
lots of things going in your

679
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:31,779
ecosystem, in your environment.

680
00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:33,660
You had some fairly decent soils

681
00:19:33,660 --> 00:19:34,880
to work with, you've got rich

682
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,319
native species, you're doing the

683
00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:37,119
compost tea.

684
00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:39,549
So I'm curious to learn more

685
00:19:39,549 --> 00:19:41,390
about what

686
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:44,579
A couple of areas.

687
00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:46,259
One is how did you observe soil

688
00:19:46,259 --> 00:19:47,539
health improving with the

689
00:19:47,539 --> 00:19:49,539
compost tea applications before

690
00:19:49,539 --> 00:19:51,119
and after? And then kind

691
00:19:51,430 --> 00:19:52,789
of the follow on from that is

692
00:19:52,789 --> 00:19:55,170
what nutritional imbalances

693
00:19:55,170 --> 00:19:56,910
remained after those compost tea

694
00:19:56,910 --> 00:19:57,710
applications?

695
00:19:58,839 --> 00:19:59,639
OK,

696
00:20:00,049 --> 00:20:00,990
well,

697
00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:04,140
let me just add a little more

698
00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:05,140
insight into that.

699
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:07,279
The learning that I had

700
00:20:07,910 --> 00:20:10,630
at this event in January in

701
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:11,430
Scottsdale,

702
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:13,680
I was talking to the Hiawassee

703
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:14,480
people

704
00:20:15,029 --> 00:20:16,349
and they had

705
00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:17,589
worked with a

706
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,470
an outfit in Denver to actually

707
00:20:20,470 --> 00:20:22,170
do the DNA analysis of

708
00:20:23,059 --> 00:20:24,059
compost teas,

709
00:20:25,059 --> 00:20:26,299
compost extracts, and then the

710
00:20:26,299 --> 00:20:27,180
compost itself.

711
00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:29,279
And it was super eye -opening to

712
00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:30,220
me. It was probably the

713
00:20:30,660 --> 00:20:32,039
biggest aha of that whole

714
00:20:32,039 --> 00:20:32,839
meeting.

715
00:20:34,769 --> 00:20:35,569
Basically,

716
00:20:35,569 --> 00:20:36,809
the guy would,

717
00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:39,130
he could pull the DNA of the

718
00:20:39,130 --> 00:20:40,569
compost and find a very rich

719
00:20:40,569 --> 00:20:42,369
environment of both microbe, of

720
00:20:42,869 --> 00:20:44,670
fungi and bacteria.

721
00:20:45,910 --> 00:20:48,609
And he'd pull the same analysis

722
00:20:48,609 --> 00:20:50,390
of an extract and find almost

723
00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:51,190
the same thing.

724
00:20:51,599 --> 00:20:52,720
It still was very rich.

725
00:20:52,799 --> 00:20:53,680
There were many, many, many

726
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,480
species there.

727
00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:56,779
And then a compost tea where

728
00:20:56,779 --> 00:20:58,079
you've allowed it to run for 24

729
00:20:58,079 --> 00:20:59,240
hours or whatever, it was down

730
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:00,940
to like 12 species and they were

731
00:21:00,940 --> 00:21:01,740
all bacteria.

732
00:21:02,369 --> 00:21:04,109
It was like a shocker to me.

733
00:21:05,819 --> 00:21:06,619
So I have,

734
00:21:06,740 --> 00:21:07,960
starting this year, we're now,

735
00:21:08,099 --> 00:21:09,119
we're doing extract.

736
00:21:09,299 --> 00:21:10,099
We're no longer.

737
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,180
we don't run that brewer

738
00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:12,660
overnight. We, we start it in

739
00:21:12,660 --> 00:21:13,960
the morning for half an hour, an

740
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:15,480
hour, and then yeah.

741
00:21:16,079 --> 00:21:16,940
So that's one thing,

742
00:21:18,019 --> 00:21:20,119
uh, in terms of the actual soil

743
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:21,420
improvements and so forth,

744
00:21:23,049 --> 00:21:24,250
it's interesting what's going

745
00:21:24,250 --> 00:21:26,769
on. So if you, if you go out in

746
00:21:26,769 --> 00:21:27,809
the woods and

747
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:29,799
pull a soil sample,

748
00:21:30,849 --> 00:21:32,509
the numbers are, uh,

749
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,279
the pH out in the woods is 5 .9

750
00:21:36,279 --> 00:21:38,619
and the organic matter is 8 .8%.

751
00:21:39,460 --> 00:21:40,339
That's pretty good.

752
00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:41,319
It's pretty good.

753
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,940
So, it's an oak woodland.

754
00:21:44,220 --> 00:21:45,500
No one's touched it forever.

755
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:46,539
It's just been sitting there.

756
00:21:47,259 --> 00:21:48,519
And if you pull the same numbers

757
00:21:48,519 --> 00:21:50,380
on the vineyard,

758
00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:52,319
the soil organic matter is

759
00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:53,119
pretty decent.

760
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:54,380
I've done it in

761
00:21:54,849 --> 00:21:56,430
multiple places and it ranges

762
00:21:56,430 --> 00:21:59,349
between 5 .8 % and 6 .9%.

763
00:22:00,170 --> 00:22:01,990
So, pretty reasonable soil

764
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:02,789
organic matter.

765
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:05,240
The kind

766
00:22:05,750 --> 00:22:06,890
of the challenge I found though

767
00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:08,849
is that the pH under my drippers

768
00:22:08,849 --> 00:22:09,849
is seven and a half.

769
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:12,460
That has nothing to do with

770
00:22:12,460 --> 00:22:13,519
water quality, does it?

771
00:22:14,079 --> 00:22:15,619
I'm pretty sure that's what it

772
00:22:15,619 --> 00:22:16,419
is.

773
00:22:16,740 --> 00:22:18,640
Uh, whereas out in the, uh, in

774
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:19,960
the rows, it's more like

775
00:22:20,309 --> 00:22:21,829
six, four or something like

776
00:22:21,829 --> 00:22:23,009
that. It's still higher

777
00:22:23,319 --> 00:22:24,500
than in the woods, but I figured

778
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:25,720
there's probably some acid in

779
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:26,940
those leaves or something out

780
00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:27,740
there.

781
00:22:28,279 --> 00:22:29,079
So

782
00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:32,049
my current thoughts are

783
00:22:33,579 --> 00:22:34,579
part of my problem.

784
00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:35,799
Part of the problems I'm having

785
00:22:35,799 --> 00:22:37,779
possibly with the micronutrients

786
00:22:37,779 --> 00:22:38,579
in the SAP

787
00:22:39,210 --> 00:22:41,470
is due to the fact that this pH

788
00:22:41,470 --> 00:22:43,150
is pretty darn high under the

789
00:22:43,150 --> 00:22:43,950
dripper area.

790
00:22:44,619 --> 00:22:46,940
So I'm trying to tackle that

791
00:22:46,940 --> 00:22:47,740
this year

792
00:22:48,759 --> 00:22:49,759
and the.

793
00:22:50,339 --> 00:22:52,640
The first approach I'm trying is

794
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,299
this. There's an outfit that

795
00:22:54,299 --> 00:22:56,619
injects carbon dioxide into an

796
00:22:56,619 --> 00:22:57,420
irrigation line

797
00:22:57,799 --> 00:23:00,099
and creates carbonic acid, which

798
00:23:00,099 --> 00:23:01,579
definitely lowers that pH

799
00:23:01,579 --> 00:23:02,379
beautifully.

800
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,259
So I'm trying that and we'll

801
00:23:06,259 --> 00:23:07,940
see, see where that takes us.

802
00:23:08,059 --> 00:23:08,859
I still, I don't fully

803
00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:09,920
understand the chemistry because

804
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:10,720
there's,

805
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:11,829
you get some carbon there, you

806
00:23:11,829 --> 00:23:12,629
got some

807
00:23:12,799 --> 00:23:13,880
protons there,

808
00:23:14,339 --> 00:23:15,660
but you've also got carbonate.

809
00:23:15,799 --> 00:23:16,940
So I don't know, I'm not sure.

810
00:23:17,259 --> 00:23:18,099
You probably know better than I

811
00:23:18,099 --> 00:23:18,899
do on that.

812
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:21,690
Yeah, the carbonic acid,

813
00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:24,609
quite little I've seen so far,

814
00:23:24,670 --> 00:23:25,950
has been a very nice performer.

815
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:28,859
And the biology seems to have,

816
00:23:29,039 --> 00:23:30,299
not have the detrimental effect

817
00:23:30,299 --> 00:23:31,759
on biology that some other acids

818
00:23:31,759 --> 00:23:33,019
do as well. So that's a plus

819
00:23:33,019 --> 00:23:33,819
also.

820
00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:37,059
So I'm hoping that that will

821
00:23:37,059 --> 00:23:37,940
take me forward.

822
00:23:39,329 --> 00:23:40,129
And

823
00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:42,190
so the areas that in terms of

824
00:23:42,190 --> 00:23:43,509
nutrients that I'm working on

825
00:23:43,509 --> 00:23:44,309
are I

826
00:23:44,809 --> 00:23:46,349
need to get more calcium in the

827
00:23:46,349 --> 00:23:47,149
program.

828
00:23:49,539 --> 00:23:51,799
And I see that in my sap and

829
00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:53,960
iron is the other one that we

830
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:55,000
tend to struggle with.

831
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:55,960
And

832
00:23:55,839 --> 00:23:57,619
so at this point, whenever I do

833
00:23:57,619 --> 00:23:59,099
a fertigation, I'm doing some

834
00:23:59,730 --> 00:24:01,390
calcium along with it

835
00:24:01,900 --> 00:24:04,059
and in our foliars as well.

836
00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:07,259
Do you see calcium trending up

837
00:24:07,259 --> 00:24:08,059
over the season?

838
00:24:09,009 --> 00:24:10,130
We do. Absolutely.

839
00:24:10,369 --> 00:24:12,349
We eventually get it there.

840
00:24:13,269 --> 00:24:14,950
I'd like to have it be there on

841
00:24:15,230 --> 00:24:16,029
day one.

842
00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:18,250
Have you

843
00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:20,759
played around with boron levels

844
00:24:20,759 --> 00:24:21,559
at all?

845
00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:23,539
We've monitored boron.

846
00:24:24,839 --> 00:24:26,660
Again, looking at the sap, I

847
00:24:26,660 --> 00:24:27,539
have been...

848
00:24:28,299 --> 00:24:29,660
with the fertigation I'm doing

849
00:24:29,660 --> 00:24:31,640
now, I'm using CalGard and I'm

850
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,099
using rebound boron in there.

851
00:24:36,819 --> 00:24:37,640
But we've had the same...

852
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,799
the boron is another one that we

853
00:24:39,799 --> 00:24:41,400
tend to build up over the season

854
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,480
and we eventually get there.

855
00:24:42,619 --> 00:24:43,419
And

856
00:24:43,089 --> 00:24:44,210
again, I'd like to get there

857
00:24:44,210 --> 00:24:45,009
right away.

858
00:24:47,259 --> 00:24:48,400
Do you have any perspective

859
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,740
given the depth of history that

860
00:24:50,740 --> 00:24:52,220
you have on your soils with

861
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,380
having had them covered with

862
00:24:55,380 --> 00:24:56,799
plant material for the long term

863
00:24:56,799 --> 00:24:58,759
and the compost?

864
00:25:00,099 --> 00:25:01,900
extracts that you've and the

865
00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:02,880
teas that you've been applying.

866
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,000
Do you have any perspectives on

867
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:05,279
your soils fungal bacterial

868
00:25:05,279 --> 00:25:07,599
ratios and what might have been

869
00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:08,399
happening there?

870
00:25:08,799 --> 00:25:10,059
Well, again, I don't have a heck

871
00:25:10,059 --> 00:25:11,259
of a lot of history, but I do

872
00:25:11,259 --> 00:25:13,160
have a snapshot anyway.

873
00:25:15,319 --> 00:25:17,359
PLFA analysis is what I've got.

874
00:25:18,829 --> 00:25:19,789
And so

875
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,700
the numbers are, let's see here.

876
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,380
In terms of bacteria, I have,

877
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:29,259
and they've measured nanograms

878
00:25:29,259 --> 00:25:30,720
per gram for what that's worth.

879
00:25:31,259 --> 00:25:33,200
So, I run about 1 ,700 on total

880
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:34,000
bacteria,

881
00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:37,069
and on fungi, I run about 900.

882
00:25:39,299 --> 00:25:40,099
So,

883
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,039
and the

884
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,000
herbuscular mycorrhizal are

885
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,200
about 200, and the saprophytic

886
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,000
are about

887
00:25:47,049 --> 00:25:48,390
700.

888
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:51,680
So, that's sort of the picture.

889
00:25:51,740 --> 00:25:52,660
I think it's reasonable,

890
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:53,700
although again,

891
00:25:54,410 --> 00:25:56,210
You have some pretty, you have

892
00:25:56,210 --> 00:25:57,410
some quite decent soil, high

893
00:25:57,410 --> 00:25:58,369
organic matter, and you have

894
00:25:58,369 --> 00:26:00,349
some very nice raw material

895
00:26:00,349 --> 00:26:01,650
resources there to work with

896
00:26:01,650 --> 00:26:02,690
that many people would probably

897
00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:03,529
be envious of.

898
00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:05,940
Yeah, I think it's pretty good

899
00:26:05,940 --> 00:26:06,740
at this point.

900
00:26:08,609 --> 00:26:10,309
I think I'm

901
00:26:10,660 --> 00:26:12,039
shifting my focus back more to

902
00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:13,819
the vines. I think the soil is

903
00:26:13,819 --> 00:26:15,529
in pretty decent shape and

904
00:26:17,029 --> 00:26:18,349
we're going to really get on

905
00:26:18,349 --> 00:26:20,960
those saps and try and make sure

906
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:21,920
we get the vines happy.

907
00:26:23,019 --> 00:26:25,720
How has your fruit quality and

908
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,240
wine quality and disease

909
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,599
resistance evolved over this

910
00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:29,399
entire journey?

911
00:26:29,259 --> 00:26:30,740
So far, we've spoken about your

912
00:26:30,740 --> 00:26:31,900
soil, but what's been happening

913
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:32,700
with the plants?

914
00:26:32,980 --> 00:26:34,559
Yes, it's really interesting.

915
00:26:37,329 --> 00:26:39,410
The basic answer is nothing,

916
00:26:39,650 --> 00:26:40,450
John.

917
00:26:42,220 --> 00:26:43,619
With wine, you can look at

918
00:26:43,619 --> 00:26:44,419
sensory

919
00:26:44,690 --> 00:26:47,670
and starting in 2020, we added

920
00:26:47,670 --> 00:26:48,690
the ability to measure

921
00:26:48,690 --> 00:26:50,349
phenolics. So we can measure the

922
00:26:50,349 --> 00:26:52,250
tannin levels and anthocyanins

923
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:53,049
in our wines.

924
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:54,940
And what we're finding is they

925
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:56,109
were good to start with and they

926
00:26:56,109 --> 00:26:57,109
continue to be good.

927
00:26:58,269 --> 00:26:59,069
So

928
00:27:00,549 --> 00:27:03,569
again, there's time ahead.

929
00:27:03,710 --> 00:27:05,009
We'll see just how it goes.

930
00:27:05,109 --> 00:27:06,190
We have years left to

931
00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:08,079
work on this thing, but

932
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:09,190
yeah,

933
00:27:10,069 --> 00:27:11,650
it's kind of surprising really.

934
00:27:12,650 --> 00:27:14,269
So as you've been on this

935
00:27:14,809 --> 00:27:15,609
pathway,

936
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:18,089
this learning journey and trying

937
00:27:18,089 --> 00:27:18,889
different things,

938
00:27:20,740 --> 00:27:22,880
what produced the most

939
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:23,920
unexpected results?

940
00:27:24,059 --> 00:27:25,019
What has surprised you?

941
00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:28,890
Oh, that's a good question.

942
00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:35,279
So since you self -describe as

943
00:27:35,279 --> 00:27:36,579
having been subconscious or

944
00:27:36,579 --> 00:27:37,640
unconscious for part of the

945
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:38,859
time, I figured something had to

946
00:27:38,859 --> 00:27:39,960
wake you up at several points.

947
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,319
Yeah. I was going to say almost

948
00:27:41,319 --> 00:27:42,640
everything is with my first

949
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,660
response to that question.

950
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,920
I was trying to prioritize them.

951
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,099
Okay. Which one was the most

952
00:27:49,099 --> 00:27:49,899
surprising?

953
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:51,200
Uh,

954
00:27:51,420 --> 00:27:54,289
the thing is sort of the, uh,

955
00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:56,779
if I, if I just kind of reflect

956
00:27:56,779 --> 00:27:58,480
on the great scheme of things,

957
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,279
uh,

958
00:28:00,049 --> 00:28:00,910
in my lifetime,

959
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,400
there's been a, there's been

960
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:04,460
some really interesting stuff

961
00:28:04,460 --> 00:28:05,259
happened.

962
00:28:06,630 --> 00:28:08,210
So for example, DNA got

963
00:28:08,210 --> 00:28:09,990
discovered. Somebody figured out

964
00:28:09,990 --> 00:28:11,289
DNA and

965
00:28:12,109 --> 00:28:12,909
figured out

966
00:28:13,569 --> 00:28:15,029
how it works, how it makes, how

967
00:28:15,029 --> 00:28:16,930
cells make proteins from it and

968
00:28:16,930 --> 00:28:18,269
how to read the code and all of

969
00:28:18,269 --> 00:28:19,069
that,

970
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:20,079
which has created this huge

971
00:28:20,079 --> 00:28:21,559
biotech revolution that's going

972
00:28:21,559 --> 00:28:22,359
on.

973
00:28:22,869 --> 00:28:25,190
The transistor got invented and

974
00:28:25,660 --> 00:28:26,980
that's created the whole

975
00:28:26,980 --> 00:28:28,819
computer and AI and all of this

976
00:28:28,819 --> 00:28:29,619
stuff.

977
00:28:31,630 --> 00:28:33,250
of which I was a participant in

978
00:28:33,250 --> 00:28:34,869
the early days and really loved.

979
00:28:35,509 --> 00:28:36,490
But then more recently,

980
00:28:36,809 --> 00:28:38,250
and I think hidden to the

981
00:28:38,250 --> 00:28:40,450
population at this moment, is

982
00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:41,869
this discovery of how plants

983
00:28:41,869 --> 00:28:42,669
grow.

984
00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:45,369
The idea of this kind of soil

985
00:28:45,369 --> 00:28:47,730
food web, which I assume was new

986
00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:49,430
in about 1980 or something like

987
00:28:49,430 --> 00:28:50,230
that.

988
00:28:51,579 --> 00:28:53,299
And then sort

989
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,259
of the liquid carbon pathway

990
00:28:56,259 --> 00:28:59,480
stuff where the

991
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:00,619
mycorrhizal

992
00:29:01,259 --> 00:29:03,160
fungi became more clearly

993
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:03,960
understood.

994
00:29:04,099 --> 00:29:05,140
And then more recently, this

995
00:29:05,140 --> 00:29:05,940
rhizophagy.

996
00:29:06,660 --> 00:29:07,720
These are astounding

997
00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:09,599
discoveries, actually.

998
00:29:10,259 --> 00:29:11,279
They're astounding discoveries,

999
00:29:11,339 --> 00:29:12,259
and they completely

1000
00:29:13,220 --> 00:29:15,140
up and on its head, the

1001
00:29:15,140 --> 00:29:17,059
historical practice of agronomy,

1002
00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:18,799
which has not been implemented

1003
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:20,440
yet on a commercial scale.

1004
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:21,799
Exactly.

1005
00:29:22,140 --> 00:29:24,339
I find it just fascinating as

1006
00:29:24,339 --> 00:29:25,700
hell to be involved in this

1007
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:27,380
right now. It's very lucky to be

1008
00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:28,859
alive at this moment in time

1009
00:29:29,259 --> 00:29:30,380
to see how it's going to

1010
00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:31,180
proceed.

1011
00:29:32,089 --> 00:29:33,150
And I think there's more to

1012
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:34,529
learn. I have a feeling also

1013
00:29:34,529 --> 00:29:35,329
that some of these

1014
00:29:35,799 --> 00:29:37,500
rhizophagia ideas are going to

1015
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:38,559
find their way back into the

1016
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:40,079
biotech world, that maybe

1017
00:29:40,079 --> 00:29:41,019
there's some human stuff

1018
00:29:41,539 --> 00:29:43,380
that might be related in some

1019
00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:44,839
way to that whole microbiome

1020
00:29:44,839 --> 00:29:45,799
interaction with

1021
00:29:46,369 --> 00:29:49,650
organism cells and somehow, I

1022
00:29:49,650 --> 00:29:50,650
wouldn't be surprised if we

1023
00:29:50,650 --> 00:29:51,950
don't find something along those

1024
00:29:51,950 --> 00:29:52,750
lines.

1025
00:29:52,789 --> 00:29:54,130
Well, it's interesting actually,

1026
00:29:54,450 --> 00:29:56,329
when I, this is going back 15

1027
00:29:56,329 --> 00:29:57,809
years ago, maybe longer, but

1028
00:29:57,809 --> 00:29:59,470
when I was first studying the

1029
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,619
process of endocytosis, there

1030
00:30:02,619 --> 00:30:05,039
was a historical book, I forget

1031
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:06,240
exactly when it was published,

1032
00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:07,619
if I had to throw a dart at the

1033
00:30:07,619 --> 00:30:08,900
dart board, I'd say somewhere in

1034
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:10,680
the 1980s or late 70s,

1035
00:30:11,259 --> 00:30:13,400
It was titled The Organic Method

1036
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,200
Primer.

1037
00:30:14,539 --> 00:30:16,099
It was a husband and wife team

1038
00:30:16,099 --> 00:30:17,880
out of California that wrote it.

1039
00:30:18,910 --> 00:30:21,150
And they first wrote about the

1040
00:30:21,150 --> 00:30:23,490
process of endocytosis of

1041
00:30:23,490 --> 00:30:24,289
plants,

1042
00:30:24,579 --> 00:30:27,180
of plant cells absorbing entire

1043
00:30:27,180 --> 00:30:28,119
bacterial cells.

1044
00:30:28,220 --> 00:30:29,900
And they had some images in that

1045
00:30:29,900 --> 00:30:30,700
book of

1046
00:30:30,809 --> 00:30:32,250
underneath the microscope

1047
00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:33,829
documenting this process.

1048
00:30:34,289 --> 00:30:35,089
Wow.

1049
00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:35,980
And come to find out

1050
00:30:36,579 --> 00:30:38,920
that process is

1051
00:30:39,490 --> 00:30:41,609
well understood and well

1052
00:30:41,609 --> 00:30:43,130
established in human cell

1053
00:30:43,130 --> 00:30:44,990
biology and animal cell biology.

1054
00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:47,059
it never got transferred to

1055
00:30:47,059 --> 00:30:47,859
plants.

1056
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:49,890
And now we're discovering things

1057
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:51,670
in plants that, as you said, I

1058
00:30:51,670 --> 00:30:53,069
think are going to come back

1059
00:30:53,069 --> 00:30:55,529
into cellular

1060
00:30:55,910 --> 00:30:57,569
biology more broadly as well.

1061
00:30:58,210 --> 00:30:59,009
Yeah.

1062
00:31:00,109 --> 00:31:02,109
It's a good thing to be alive as

1063
00:31:02,109 --> 00:31:03,569
far as this kind of stuff goes.

1064
00:31:08,130 --> 00:31:09,329
Yeah. So those were some of the

1065
00:31:09,329 --> 00:31:10,730
things that have surprised you.

1066
00:31:10,869 --> 00:31:12,890
What about experiences out in

1067
00:31:12,890 --> 00:31:13,690
the field?

1068
00:31:14,150 --> 00:31:15,369
What have been some observations

1069
00:31:15,369 --> 00:31:16,789
or experiences there that were

1070
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:17,589
unexpected?

1071
00:31:20,089 --> 00:31:20,889
Well,

1072
00:31:20,930 --> 00:31:21,730
one

1073
00:31:24,460 --> 00:31:26,500
thing that pops to mind is just

1074
00:31:26,779 --> 00:31:28,460
in terms of viticulture,

1075
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:31,500
one of the

1076
00:31:31,660 --> 00:31:34,220
areas that people go around on

1077
00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:35,799
is the undervine

1078
00:31:38,059 --> 00:31:39,299
tending, I guess, to

1079
00:31:39,619 --> 00:31:40,419
pick a word.

1080
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:46,519
In my particular situation, that

1081
00:31:46,519 --> 00:31:47,900
native cover comes up like

1082
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:49,559
crazy, and it's growing right

1083
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:50,359
under the vines.

1084
00:31:50,259 --> 00:31:51,059
And there's a tendency

1085
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:55,099
for people to say,

1086
00:31:55,670 --> 00:31:57,009
gosh, the competition there is

1087
00:31:57,009 --> 00:31:58,170
really tough. You've got to get

1088
00:31:58,170 --> 00:31:58,970
it out of there.

1089
00:32:00,049 --> 00:32:01,450
And I'm kind of an observation

1090
00:32:01,450 --> 00:32:02,990
that I don't think I have to,

1091
00:32:03,150 --> 00:32:04,630
that the vines are rooted much,

1092
00:32:04,750 --> 00:32:05,549
much deeper

1093
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,299
than that cover crop.

1094
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:08,420
Plus you have all of the sort of

1095
00:32:08,420 --> 00:32:10,259
indirect evidence that cover

1096
00:32:10,259 --> 00:32:11,599
crops can help on some of these

1097
00:32:11,599 --> 00:32:12,399
situations.

1098
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,720
So that's one area that I puzzle

1099
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:18,519
about.

1100
00:32:18,779 --> 00:32:20,900
I think my observation is that

1101
00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:22,500
the real problem with it is just

1102
00:32:22,940 --> 00:32:25,480
annoying the crews that are

1103
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:26,500
working those vines.

1104
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,940
If it gets too fuzzy in there,

1105
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,859
if you get grasses and stuff

1106
00:32:30,859 --> 00:32:31,880
that are growing all the way up

1107
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:32,680
into the canopy,

1108
00:32:33,599 --> 00:32:35,799
it impedes their ability to

1109
00:32:36,039 --> 00:32:38,390
fruit thin and shoot thin and

1110
00:32:38,390 --> 00:32:39,190
this sort of thing.

1111
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:41,180
But in terms of just the actual

1112
00:32:41,710 --> 00:32:43,450
growing of the vine, I don't

1113
00:32:43,450 --> 00:32:44,250
think it's a problem.

1114
00:32:44,369 --> 00:32:45,269
So that's one area.

1115
00:32:48,980 --> 00:32:49,799
When we look at what is

1116
00:32:49,799 --> 00:32:50,740
happening in agriculture

1117
00:32:50,740 --> 00:32:51,539
generally,

1118
00:32:51,819 --> 00:32:53,140
I mean, it's been true for

1119
00:32:53,140 --> 00:32:54,339
several years that the general

1120
00:32:54,339 --> 00:32:56,420
ag macroeconomy has really been

1121
00:32:56,420 --> 00:32:57,220
struggling.

1122
00:32:58,279 --> 00:32:59,299
And something

1123
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:01,019
similar is happening in wine

1124
00:33:01,019 --> 00:33:02,059
grapes as well, where

1125
00:33:02,059 --> 00:33:03,859
consumption is declining

1126
00:33:03,859 --> 00:33:05,079
dramatically, not just

1127
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:06,319
domestically, but globally.

1128
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:08,599
Wine consumption is on a very

1129
00:33:09,299 --> 00:33:11,680
dramatic downward decline, it

1130
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,480
seems.

1131
00:33:13,279 --> 00:33:15,079
How do you see the future

1132
00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:17,859
evolving both in wine industry

1133
00:33:17,859 --> 00:33:19,200
more generally and for your

1134
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,220
operation specifically?

1135
00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:22,420
So that's a really interesting

1136
00:33:22,420 --> 00:33:23,920
question. You're right about

1137
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:24,720
that.

1138
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,660
The wine industry is really,

1139
00:33:28,029 --> 00:33:29,450
the history is kind of

1140
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:31,170
interesting. My perspective on

1141
00:33:31,170 --> 00:33:31,970
the history,

1142
00:33:32,109 --> 00:33:33,589
I just had a cat jump down from

1143
00:33:33,779 --> 00:33:35,380
the bookcase to the floor behind

1144
00:33:35,380 --> 00:33:36,180
me there.

1145
00:33:38,349 --> 00:33:39,849
If you go back,

1146
00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:41,650
The prohibition pretty much

1147
00:33:41,650 --> 00:33:43,849
knocked out the, the, uh, the

1148
00:33:43,849 --> 00:33:44,869
wine business, at least in

1149
00:33:44,869 --> 00:33:46,930
America. And there was a very

1150
00:33:46,930 --> 00:33:49,369
slow recovery after that.

1151
00:33:49,369 --> 00:33:50,509
It sort of drifted back,

1152
00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:54,130
uh, starting in around 1970 or

1153
00:33:54,130 --> 00:33:55,950
so Robert Mondavi and the Napa

1154
00:33:55,950 --> 00:33:57,690
Valley really kind of began to

1155
00:33:58,829 --> 00:34:00,150
seem to push and move that

1156
00:34:00,150 --> 00:34:00,950
forward,

1157
00:34:01,119 --> 00:34:04,000
uh, and, uh, made some progress.

1158
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,180
But in the eighties, the mothers

1159
00:34:05,180 --> 00:34:06,440
against drunk driving, remember

1160
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:07,240
that mad,

1161
00:34:08,429 --> 00:34:10,269
they put the kibosh on a lot of

1162
00:34:10,269 --> 00:34:11,510
that growth. And so the wine

1163
00:34:11,510 --> 00:34:12,489
industry again was pretty

1164
00:34:12,489 --> 00:34:14,010
stagnant and not moving a lot.

1165
00:34:14,730 --> 00:34:15,989
And then you

1166
00:34:16,530 --> 00:34:18,510
can actually set your watch to

1167
00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:19,510
the moment where it turned

1168
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:20,310
around.

1169
00:34:20,519 --> 00:34:21,320
It was a

1170
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,800
60 minutes episode in about 1991

1171
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:25,600
or 92.

1172
00:34:26,530 --> 00:34:27,530
It was called the French

1173
00:34:27,530 --> 00:34:28,330
Paradox.

1174
00:34:28,590 --> 00:34:30,849
And they did a half an hour of

1175
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:33,349
going over to France and showing

1176
00:34:33,349 --> 00:34:34,750
these people eating all these

1177
00:34:34,750 --> 00:34:35,550
fatty foods.

1178
00:34:35,630 --> 00:34:36,430
and

1179
00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:38,809
pasta and wine.

1180
00:34:40,090 --> 00:34:41,809
And then they

1181
00:34:42,190 --> 00:34:44,969
quoted the stats about

1182
00:34:44,969 --> 00:34:47,949
the cardiovascular disease

1183
00:34:47,949 --> 00:34:49,630
rates being way lower, longer

1184
00:34:49,630 --> 00:34:50,710
lives, et cetera, et cetera.

1185
00:34:50,829 --> 00:34:51,829
And then at the end, they sort

1186
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:52,750
of popped the surprise.

1187
00:34:53,150 --> 00:34:53,950
And guess what?

1188
00:34:53,849 --> 00:34:55,030
There was a glass of red wine

1189
00:34:55,030 --> 00:34:56,250
sitting on every one of those

1190
00:34:56,250 --> 00:34:57,690
tables that you saw earlier.

1191
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:00,280
And at that moment, the US wine

1192
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:01,159
industry took off.

1193
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:02,780
If you could plot it, you would

1194
00:35:02,780 --> 00:35:04,340
see an inflection point.

1195
00:35:05,179 --> 00:35:06,500
And it maintained that growth

1196
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:07,880
rate growing, I don't know, 7 %

1197
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,150
to 10 % a year until 2019.

1198
00:35:12,789 --> 00:35:14,389
So we basically have a 30 -year

1199
00:35:14,389 --> 00:35:16,269
span of uninterrupted growth.

1200
00:35:16,389 --> 00:35:17,329
And we have an industry

1201
00:35:18,340 --> 00:35:20,530
that almost everybody that works

1202
00:35:20,530 --> 00:35:22,230
in it has never experienced a

1203
00:35:22,230 --> 00:35:23,030
downturn.

1204
00:35:23,210 --> 00:35:24,010
So

1205
00:35:23,989 --> 00:35:25,010
it comes as kind of a rude

1206
00:35:25,010 --> 00:35:25,810
shock.

1207
00:35:26,769 --> 00:35:28,389
In retrospect, it peaked in

1208
00:35:28,389 --> 00:35:29,190
2019.

1209
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,320
But then COVID came along and

1210
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,120
there was a

1211
00:35:34,110 --> 00:35:36,050
natural spike again.

1212
00:35:36,230 --> 00:35:37,730
2020 was a great year because

1213
00:35:37,730 --> 00:35:39,070
most people were sitting at home

1214
00:35:39,070 --> 00:35:39,870
and

1215
00:35:39,809 --> 00:35:41,269
having wine delivered to their,

1216
00:35:41,389 --> 00:35:43,150
to their front doorstep.

1217
00:35:43,849 --> 00:35:45,949
So 20 and 21 seemed pretty good.

1218
00:35:46,070 --> 00:35:47,550
Then in 22, it began to revert

1219
00:35:47,550 --> 00:35:49,010
back to more normal.

1220
00:35:49,150 --> 00:35:50,210
And suddenly we

1221
00:35:51,289 --> 00:35:52,469
discovered that actually the

1222
00:35:52,469 --> 00:35:54,550
industry peaked in 2019 and

1223
00:35:54,550 --> 00:35:55,949
there was never catching up.

1224
00:35:56,030 --> 00:35:57,309
So there has been some hard

1225
00:35:57,309 --> 00:35:58,110
years

1226
00:35:58,260 --> 00:35:59,940
and it is shrinking.

1227
00:36:00,059 --> 00:36:01,400
So that's kind of the history,

1228
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:03,219
but now looking ahead, where are

1229
00:36:03,219 --> 00:36:04,019
we going to go?

1230
00:36:05,639 --> 00:36:06,440
Who knows?

1231
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,219
That's one thing about time is

1232
00:36:10,219 --> 00:36:11,539
you can look back and you can't

1233
00:36:11,539 --> 00:36:12,780
change anything and you can look

1234
00:36:12,780 --> 00:36:13,760
ahead and you don't have any

1235
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:14,719
idea what the hell's coming.

1236
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:15,800
So

1237
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,000
with that in mind, we can

1238
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:19,360
prognosticate to our heart's

1239
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,160
content.

1240
00:36:21,679 --> 00:36:22,639
Personally, I think

1241
00:36:23,690 --> 00:36:26,010
to me, wine is not just alcohol.

1242
00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:27,929
It's not something you drink in

1243
00:36:27,929 --> 00:36:29,030
order to achieve a

1244
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:31,440
level of drunkenness or

1245
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:32,960
whatever. It's a social

1246
00:36:33,659 --> 00:36:35,639
beverage. It's intended to be

1247
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:37,559
enjoyed with food and people and

1248
00:36:37,559 --> 00:36:38,360
friends.

1249
00:36:39,099 --> 00:36:40,039
It serves a minor

1250
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,039
purpose of lubricating the

1251
00:36:43,039 --> 00:36:43,940
social interaction.

1252
00:36:45,420 --> 00:36:46,840
At the appropriate level, it's

1253
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,800
wonderful. I personally feel

1254
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:49,600
like there's probably some

1255
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:50,400
health benefits

1256
00:36:51,170 --> 00:36:53,949
with reasonable consumption.

1257
00:36:56,199 --> 00:36:57,860
I have confidence that we'll

1258
00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:59,400
come back. I don't anticipate

1259
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:00,619
it's going to be real fast or

1260
00:37:00,619 --> 00:37:01,519
anything like that,

1261
00:37:01,940 --> 00:37:03,099
but the fundamentals of human

1262
00:37:03,099 --> 00:37:04,440
life don't really change.

1263
00:37:04,519 --> 00:37:05,780
Having friends and

1264
00:37:06,539 --> 00:37:08,300
enjoying a meal, these are

1265
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:09,100
things that

1266
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:10,199
will not change.

1267
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,179
They've been around since,

1268
00:37:12,030 --> 00:37:13,630
I don't know, Julius Caesar or

1269
00:37:13,630 --> 00:37:15,570
somebody, you know, goes back.

1270
00:37:16,110 --> 00:37:18,369
So my personal approach is to

1271
00:37:19,070 --> 00:37:20,130
stay the course,

1272
00:37:20,590 --> 00:37:21,390
try

1273
00:37:21,710 --> 00:37:22,809
and really focus on

1274
00:37:25,199 --> 00:37:26,000
growing

1275
00:37:26,619 --> 00:37:28,440
the healthiest, most nutrient

1276
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,639
-dense grapes I can possibly do,

1277
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,059
and making the greatest wine I

1278
00:37:32,059 --> 00:37:32,860
can out of them,

1279
00:37:33,590 --> 00:37:34,590
keeping it at a reasonable

1280
00:37:34,590 --> 00:37:35,650
price, and

1281
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:38,079
build it and they will come.

1282
00:37:38,380 --> 00:37:39,180
So, yeah,

1283
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:40,719
probably not going to win me any

1284
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,420
marketing prizes, but that's my

1285
00:37:42,420 --> 00:37:43,220
view.

1286
00:37:43,289 --> 00:37:45,250
Well, I think your comments

1287
00:37:45,250 --> 00:37:46,789
speak to differentiation.

1288
00:37:47,389 --> 00:37:48,590
It's a simple question.

1289
00:37:48,769 --> 00:37:50,780
If you have greater production

1290
00:37:50,780 --> 00:37:52,559
and greater supply than you have

1291
00:37:52,559 --> 00:37:54,579
demand, how do you differentiate

1292
00:37:54,579 --> 00:37:55,460
in that environment?

1293
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,639
Exactly, and I can tell you that

1294
00:37:59,639 --> 00:38:01,780
the regen ag is going to be big.

1295
00:38:01,860 --> 00:38:02,760
I'm sure you've already noticed

1296
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:03,560
that.

1297
00:38:04,619 --> 00:38:05,780
Yeah, I think everything,

1298
00:38:06,989 --> 00:38:08,710
all the indicators point to wine

1299
00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:11,389
grapes being the leader in

1300
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:13,829
implementing and adopting regen

1301
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:16,929
ag on scale to the point where

1302
00:38:16,929 --> 00:38:19,090
it could rapidly grow to be a

1303
00:38:19,090 --> 00:38:20,429
significant proportion of the

1304
00:38:20,429 --> 00:38:21,230
overall production.

1305
00:38:21,630 --> 00:38:23,769
Oh yeah, I expect it will, John.

1306
00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:26,269
The wine industry is,

1307
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:27,630
the way I think about it, is

1308
00:38:27,630 --> 00:38:28,730
kind of at the top of the,

1309
00:38:29,030 --> 00:38:30,469
near the top of the agricultural

1310
00:38:30,469 --> 00:38:31,849
pyramid in terms of

1311
00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:33,630
dollars per acre or something

1312
00:38:33,630 --> 00:38:34,430
like that.

1313
00:38:34,889 --> 00:38:36,349
And it is typically

1314
00:38:36,820 --> 00:38:38,380
vertically integrated in the

1315
00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:40,119
sense that,

1316
00:38:41,269 --> 00:38:42,710
like in my case, most of my

1317
00:38:42,710 --> 00:38:44,570
grapes I sell to myself and I

1318
00:38:44,570 --> 00:38:46,050
make wine out of them and then I

1319
00:38:46,050 --> 00:38:46,850
sell that wine.

1320
00:38:46,969 --> 00:38:47,989
So I have a

1321
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:49,940
I don't have to go through a

1322
00:38:49,940 --> 00:38:52,159
broker or some cooperative or

1323
00:38:52,159 --> 00:38:53,900
something like that, which,

1324
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,380
and there's also a plethora of

1325
00:38:56,380 --> 00:38:58,239
marketing people associated with

1326
00:38:58,239 --> 00:38:59,039
the wine industry.

1327
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:00,800
If you go into these big,

1328
00:39:01,380 --> 00:39:02,840
the larger corporations,

1329
00:39:04,050 --> 00:39:05,150
I would guess they have more

1330
00:39:05,150 --> 00:39:06,349
marketing people than anything

1331
00:39:06,349 --> 00:39:07,409
else. Uh,

1332
00:39:07,739 --> 00:39:09,420
and they are looking for an edge

1333
00:39:09,420 --> 00:39:12,300
and regen ag. It just, it's a

1334
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:14,079
bright shining star and you can

1335
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:15,880
bet there will be a mad rush to

1336
00:39:16,550 --> 00:39:18,150
implement that and to exploit it

1337
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:18,950
in the marketplace.

1338
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:19,830
So

1339
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:20,860
you guys are going to do well.

1340
00:39:21,909 --> 00:39:22,989
Your timing is excellent.

1341
00:39:24,019 --> 00:39:25,420
Well, we were there before the

1342
00:39:25,420 --> 00:39:26,260
timing was excellent.

1343
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:27,200
Yeah, exactly.

1344
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:28,619
That's why.

1345
00:39:30,650 --> 00:39:31,450
Yeah.

1346
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:32,960
Yeah, it's certainly an

1347
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:33,720
interesting time.

1348
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,460
And I think your

1349
00:39:36,860 --> 00:39:38,079
comments about vertical

1350
00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:39,539
integration and value adding,

1351
00:39:39,619 --> 00:39:41,059
they're kind of inherent within

1352
00:39:41,059 --> 00:39:41,860
winemaking.

1353
00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:43,960
There's the grape growing and

1354
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:44,780
then there's the winemaking.

1355
00:39:45,159 --> 00:39:46,099
It's kind of,

1356
00:39:46,809 --> 00:39:48,090
there's that inherent close

1357
00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:49,369
connection because you have this

1358
00:39:49,369 --> 00:39:50,170
very short life.

1359
00:39:50,150 --> 00:39:51,090
You don't have something that's

1360
00:39:51,090 --> 00:39:51,890
storable.

1361
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:54,059
And when I look at the rest of

1362
00:39:54,059 --> 00:39:55,420
the agricultural landscape, so

1363
00:39:55,420 --> 00:39:56,699
many of the other things that we

1364
00:39:56,699 --> 00:39:58,739
produce, a majority of them are

1365
00:39:59,659 --> 00:40:01,360
commodities or quasi commodities

1366
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:02,320
that can be stored.

1367
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,820
And we've disassociated the

1368
00:40:05,039 --> 00:40:06,219
production from the value

1369
00:40:06,219 --> 00:40:07,019
adding.

1370
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:08,680
That's correct.

1371
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:10,000
And I think that if you're on

1372
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:11,280
the farmer's end of that, you're

1373
00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:12,989
you've got a big challenge.

1374
00:40:13,130 --> 00:40:13,930
It's,

1375
00:40:14,420 --> 00:40:15,659
you know, the value chain,

1376
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:17,400
when the

1377
00:40:17,809 --> 00:40:19,090
way it works in a value chain is

1378
00:40:19,090 --> 00:40:20,510
the person closest to you actual

1379
00:40:20,510 --> 00:40:21,310
consumer

1380
00:40:21,579 --> 00:40:23,420
is who makes the most margin.

1381
00:40:23,639 --> 00:40:24,440
And,

1382
00:40:24,309 --> 00:40:25,110
uh, when there's a,

1383
00:40:25,530 --> 00:40:27,269
when there's an inventory issue,

1384
00:40:27,550 --> 00:40:29,710
it ripples back and it whipsaws

1385
00:40:29,710 --> 00:40:31,130
the guys at the very front end

1386
00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:32,289
of it. So the

1387
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,639
farmer is probably in that

1388
00:40:34,639 --> 00:40:35,440
situation.

1389
00:40:35,679 --> 00:40:36,940
Wine is pretty lucky that

1390
00:40:36,940 --> 00:40:38,500
although there are still quite a

1391
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:39,300
number of,

1392
00:40:39,639 --> 00:40:40,820
of guys that are

1393
00:40:41,260 --> 00:40:43,760
just growers that are seeking to

1394
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,500
sell grapes to another wine

1395
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:46,300
company.

1396
00:40:46,670 --> 00:40:48,289
and they're, I'm sure, under

1397
00:40:48,289 --> 00:40:49,590
intense pressure right now.

1398
00:40:51,349 --> 00:40:52,150
Yeah,

1399
00:40:53,980 --> 00:40:55,420
I'm

1400
00:40:55,860 --> 00:40:57,059
just realizing, I feel like we

1401
00:40:57,059 --> 00:40:58,659
didn't quite finish up on the

1402
00:40:58,659 --> 00:41:01,019
plant population, or excuse me,

1403
00:41:01,039 --> 00:41:03,500
on the plant conversation of how

1404
00:41:03,500 --> 00:41:05,820
are your plants evolving and how

1405
00:41:05,820 --> 00:41:08,420
are they expressing themselves

1406
00:41:08,420 --> 00:41:09,480
differently than they have in

1407
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:10,440
the past in any way.

1408
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:12,079
You started by

1409
00:41:12,429 --> 00:41:14,710
responding to some of the things

1410
00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:15,710
that you've

1411
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:17,980
been surprised by, such as

1412
00:41:17,980 --> 00:41:19,400
rhizophagia and so forth, but

1413
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,199
I'd love to dig more into

1414
00:41:22,059 --> 00:41:23,739
the infield application of how

1415
00:41:23,739 --> 00:41:24,639
things might have changed.

1416
00:41:27,030 --> 00:41:27,830
So,

1417
00:41:28,369 --> 00:41:29,650
you're thinking sort of in terms

1418
00:41:29,650 --> 00:41:31,210
of how the vines are behaving

1419
00:41:31,210 --> 00:41:32,329
differently now, possibly?

1420
00:41:33,070 --> 00:41:34,889
A combination of how the vines

1421
00:41:34,889 --> 00:41:36,090
are behaving differently and how

1422
00:41:36,090 --> 00:41:37,429
your management of the vines is

1423
00:41:37,429 --> 00:41:38,550
different, if it is at all.

1424
00:41:40,460 --> 00:41:41,260
So,

1425
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:42,100
I

1426
00:41:43,289 --> 00:41:44,090
don't want to give the

1427
00:41:43,809 --> 00:41:45,590
impression that the vineyard is

1428
00:41:45,590 --> 00:41:47,150
just pristine. I've got plenty

1429
00:41:47,150 --> 00:41:49,230
of challenges. I have, there

1430
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:51,880
is trunk disease out there that

1431
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,119
comes from, you know, long ago

1432
00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:55,349
fungal infections that have

1433
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:56,150
gotten

1434
00:41:56,489 --> 00:41:57,429
in through a pruning wound

1435
00:41:57,429 --> 00:41:58,230
somewhere.

1436
00:41:58,639 --> 00:42:00,829
So we're constantly fighting

1437
00:42:00,829 --> 00:42:02,530
that and we continue to

1438
00:42:03,289 --> 00:42:04,429
work

1439
00:42:05,730 --> 00:42:07,469
on trying to do better on our

1440
00:42:07,469 --> 00:42:08,269
mildew.

1441
00:42:08,530 --> 00:42:09,769
But just generally speaking,

1442
00:42:09,969 --> 00:42:12,309
what I have observed is that

1443
00:42:15,150 --> 00:42:16,269
the vines are happy.

1444
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:18,330
Maybe

1445
00:42:20,210 --> 00:42:22,230
the way I would think about it

1446
00:42:22,230 --> 00:42:23,590
is you can drive around and look

1447
00:42:23,590 --> 00:42:25,150
at vineyards and occasionally

1448
00:42:25,150 --> 00:42:26,829
you'll see a vineyard that's got

1449
00:42:26,829 --> 00:42:27,630
that

1450
00:42:27,710 --> 00:42:30,050
beautiful bare dirt everywhere.

1451
00:42:30,789 --> 00:42:31,869
And if you look at the vines,

1452
00:42:31,929 --> 00:42:33,010
they just look forlorn.

1453
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,320
They just look sad out there.

1454
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,659
They look weathered.

1455
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:39,659
The shoot lengths are a little

1456
00:42:39,659 --> 00:42:40,460
shorter.

1457
00:42:41,670 --> 00:42:42,929
They just don't look very perky,

1458
00:42:43,050 --> 00:42:45,989
whereas if you look at my

1459
00:42:45,989 --> 00:42:46,869
vineyard, you have the opposite.

1460
00:42:47,030 --> 00:42:48,710
You've got this terribly shaggy

1461
00:42:49,190 --> 00:42:51,010
ground cover situation,

1462
00:42:51,730 --> 00:42:53,590
but the vines, they feel, they

1463
00:42:53,590 --> 00:42:54,809
look happy, you know, they look

1464
00:42:54,809 --> 00:42:55,610
like their

1465
00:42:57,780 --> 00:43:00,099
shoots, the shoots are solid and

1466
00:43:00,099 --> 00:43:01,199
yeah,

1467
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,760
so that I observed.

1468
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:04,960
But as far as kind of really

1469
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,320
doing something different on the

1470
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:07,120
viticulture,

1471
00:43:07,559 --> 00:43:08,360
there's not a lot.

1472
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:09,300
Vines are,

1473
00:43:10,829 --> 00:43:11,690
they're pretty straightforward.

1474
00:43:11,869 --> 00:43:12,730
They love to grow.

1475
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:15,600
I think if you just,

1476
00:43:16,170 --> 00:43:17,030
give them a little bit of water

1477
00:43:17,030 --> 00:43:17,830
and give them a little bit of

1478
00:43:17,710 --> 00:43:18,650
nutrition, they're going to be

1479
00:43:18,650 --> 00:43:20,150
happy. And you have more problem

1480
00:43:20,150 --> 00:43:21,250
trying to deal with excess

1481
00:43:21,250 --> 00:43:22,050
growth than

1482
00:43:22,460 --> 00:43:24,119
you do with trying

1483
00:43:24,590 --> 00:43:25,690
to nurse them along, trying to

1484
00:43:25,690 --> 00:43:26,490
get them to grow more.

1485
00:43:27,190 --> 00:43:27,990
Yeah.

1486
00:43:28,269 --> 00:43:30,369
How have... It's been several

1487
00:43:30,369 --> 00:43:31,429
years now, I think, that you've

1488
00:43:31,429 --> 00:43:32,250
been using the foliar

1489
00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:33,489
applications. What does your

1490
00:43:33,489 --> 00:43:34,989
foliar application frequency and

1491
00:43:34,989 --> 00:43:35,789
timing look like?

1492
00:43:35,949 --> 00:43:36,750
And how has

1493
00:43:37,110 --> 00:43:38,690
that made any observable

1494
00:43:38,690 --> 00:43:39,510
improvements for you?

1495
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:40,800
So,

1496
00:43:41,260 --> 00:43:42,500
we basically

1497
00:43:43,170 --> 00:43:45,329
have been adding foliars in with

1498
00:43:45,329 --> 00:43:46,250
our mildew sprays.

1499
00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:47,409
It's been the approach to it.

1500
00:43:48,070 --> 00:43:50,369
And with an organic approach,

1501
00:43:50,409 --> 00:43:51,429
you have to spray more often.

1502
00:43:51,570 --> 00:43:52,370
That's probably one of the

1503
00:43:52,329 --> 00:43:53,269
downsides

1504
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:55,960
of organic chemistry.

1505
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:58,900
So, we run about every 10 to 12

1506
00:43:58,900 --> 00:44:00,400
days, we go through and spray.

1507
00:44:01,059 --> 00:44:02,000
And we've been adding

1508
00:44:03,170 --> 00:44:05,269
the micronutrients primarily to

1509
00:44:05,269 --> 00:44:07,489
those sprays based on a SAP

1510
00:44:07,489 --> 00:44:08,610
analysis. And we try

1511
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:09,850
and

1512
00:44:10,750 --> 00:44:13,349
that sap analysis so that we get

1513
00:44:13,349 --> 00:44:15,010
it after the last spray and

1514
00:44:15,550 --> 00:44:16,710
we'll

1515
00:44:17,659 --> 00:44:18,460
probably,

1516
00:44:18,260 --> 00:44:21,170
the approach is we spray,

1517
00:44:21,409 --> 00:44:22,969
give it four or five days, pull

1518
00:44:22,969 --> 00:44:24,090
a sap analysis, then there's

1519
00:44:24,090 --> 00:44:25,610
another spray without any new

1520
00:44:25,610 --> 00:44:26,849
knowledge and then the next

1521
00:44:26,849 --> 00:44:28,030
spray after that we have new

1522
00:44:28,030 --> 00:44:28,830
knowledge and

1523
00:44:29,110 --> 00:44:30,789
we adjust our foliars

1524
00:44:30,940 --> 00:44:31,860
accordingly.

1525
00:44:33,329 --> 00:44:34,349
And thus far,

1526
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,739
It's still, each year we've had

1527
00:44:37,739 --> 00:44:38,539
to work at it.

1528
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:41,079
When we start off, what we find

1529
00:44:41,079 --> 00:44:42,239
with our sap is that certain

1530
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,380
micronutrients are

1531
00:44:43,980 --> 00:44:44,820
deficient.

1532
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,119
You know, the macros, calcium is

1533
00:44:48,119 --> 00:44:50,239
often a problem.

1534
00:44:50,739 --> 00:44:52,280
And we work through the year,

1535
00:44:52,380 --> 00:44:53,559
and typically by the time we get

1536
00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:54,360
to veraison,

1537
00:44:55,150 --> 00:44:56,269
we've got everything pretty much

1538
00:44:56,269 --> 00:44:57,070
where we want it.

1539
00:44:57,570 --> 00:44:58,630
So that has been

1540
00:44:58,969 --> 00:45:00,289
the theme thus far,

1541
00:45:00,869 --> 00:45:02,050
and obviously

1542
00:45:02,650 --> 00:45:04,110
the goal is to try and get that

1543
00:45:04,110 --> 00:45:04,910
very first

1544
00:45:05,050 --> 00:45:06,989
sap analysis to be where we want

1545
00:45:06,989 --> 00:45:07,789
it.

1546
00:45:12,250 --> 00:45:13,449
So I have a question for you,

1547
00:45:13,489 --> 00:45:14,289
John.

1548
00:45:16,349 --> 00:45:18,630
There's some very good wines

1549
00:45:18,630 --> 00:45:20,510
that are made from dry farmed

1550
00:45:20,860 --> 00:45:23,239
vineyards and oftentimes very

1551
00:45:24,219 --> 00:45:25,019
old vines.

1552
00:45:25,829 --> 00:45:27,650
And the typical situation there

1553
00:45:27,650 --> 00:45:28,789
is that they're

1554
00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:32,199
widely spaced, maybe 10 feet by

1555
00:45:32,199 --> 00:45:34,159
10 feet or 12 feet by 12 feet.

1556
00:45:35,699 --> 00:45:36,500
They're

1557
00:45:37,119 --> 00:45:39,019
typically grown in

1558
00:45:39,590 --> 00:45:41,250
clay, is what I have observed,

1559
00:45:41,449 --> 00:45:42,250
something that has a little

1560
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:45,099
higher water retaining in it.

1561
00:45:48,190 --> 00:45:49,809
Again, since I don't farm that

1562
00:45:49,809 --> 00:45:50,769
way, I'm not an expert, but

1563
00:45:50,769 --> 00:45:51,789
here's what I see.

1564
00:45:53,210 --> 00:45:55,150
Typically, the guys have either

1565
00:45:55,150 --> 00:45:57,170
a native cover crop, or in the

1566
00:45:57,170 --> 00:45:58,269
more recent years, I've noticed

1567
00:45:58,269 --> 00:45:59,670
they're starting to plant a

1568
00:46:00,619 --> 00:46:01,420
cover crop.

1569
00:46:01,989 --> 00:46:03,090
They let it grow until

1570
00:46:03,590 --> 00:46:05,130
just before bud time.

1571
00:46:05,380 --> 00:46:06,300
and then they

1572
00:46:06,619 --> 00:46:07,639
till it under.

1573
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:09,840
And they till it dramatically.

1574
00:46:10,139 --> 00:46:12,139
They till X

1575
00:46:12,610 --> 00:46:13,410
and Y,

1576
00:46:13,699 --> 00:46:14,519
and they till deep.

1577
00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:15,920
And the idea is to create what

1578
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,079
they call a dust mulch

1579
00:46:17,579 --> 00:46:19,099
that's like six or eight inches

1580
00:46:19,099 --> 00:46:19,900
deep.

1581
00:46:20,789 --> 00:46:23,190
And those vines seem to do just

1582
00:46:23,190 --> 00:46:24,489
fine and make really, really

1583
00:46:24,489 --> 00:46:25,289
good vines.

1584
00:46:26,110 --> 00:46:26,910
And yet,

1585
00:46:26,730 --> 00:46:28,070
from my perspective, it seems

1586
00:46:28,070 --> 00:46:30,030
like they've pretty well erased

1587
00:46:30,030 --> 00:46:32,750
any soil biology in that top

1588
00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:33,550
foot or so.

1589
00:46:33,820 --> 00:46:35,059
Curious for your thoughts on how

1590
00:46:35,059 --> 00:46:36,179
that system works.

1591
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:40,310
That's intriguing.

1592
00:46:40,329 --> 00:46:41,369
I have a few thoughts around

1593
00:46:41,369 --> 00:46:42,869
that. I would tend to agree with

1594
00:46:42,869 --> 00:46:44,150
your assessment that

1595
00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:47,340
they've really destroyed much of

1596
00:46:47,340 --> 00:46:48,579
what is left of any living

1597
00:46:48,579 --> 00:46:50,219
system in that upper profile.

1598
00:46:51,039 --> 00:46:52,380
Obviously, the plant roots are a

1599
00:46:52,380 --> 00:46:53,340
lot deeper than that, and

1600
00:46:53,340 --> 00:46:54,300
they're getting moisture a lot

1601
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:55,119
deeper than that.

1602
00:46:57,170 --> 00:46:58,630
It would be interesting to know

1603
00:46:58,630 --> 00:47:00,190
how that system might operate

1604
00:47:00,190 --> 00:47:01,570
without that dust mulch.

1605
00:47:02,489 --> 00:47:03,289
But you know,

1606
00:47:04,070 --> 00:47:05,409
Bob Quinn first pointed

1607
00:47:05,409 --> 00:47:06,289
something out to me.

1608
00:47:06,329 --> 00:47:07,750
I had him in here on the podcast

1609
00:47:07,750 --> 00:47:08,550
years ago.

1610
00:47:09,909 --> 00:47:12,409
a longtime leader in the organic

1611
00:47:12,409 --> 00:47:13,909
farming space out of Montana.

1612
00:47:14,570 --> 00:47:16,349
And he's growing crops that

1613
00:47:16,980 --> 00:47:18,900
supposedly he's in a dry land,

1614
00:47:19,650 --> 00:47:20,849
arid environment.

1615
00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:22,710
If my memory serves me

1616
00:47:22,710 --> 00:47:23,710
correctly, I want to say 10 to

1617
00:47:23,710 --> 00:47:24,849
12 inches of rainfall a year,

1618
00:47:24,929 --> 00:47:26,070
maybe a bit more than that, but

1619
00:47:26,070 --> 00:47:26,870
not much more.

1620
00:47:28,409 --> 00:47:30,190
And he's

1621
00:47:30,789 --> 00:47:32,250
growing watermelons in that

1622
00:47:32,250 --> 00:47:33,570
environment and he's growing

1623
00:47:33,570 --> 00:47:34,710
potatoes and he's growing a

1624
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:36,349
variety of crops that supposedly

1625
00:47:36,349 --> 00:47:37,650
you wouldn't be able to grow in

1626
00:47:37,650 --> 00:47:38,750
that environment because of

1627
00:47:38,750 --> 00:47:39,550
inadequate moisture.

1628
00:47:40,579 --> 00:47:42,900
And his solution was spacing.

1629
00:47:43,409 --> 00:47:45,789
He said he just spaces the

1630
00:47:45,789 --> 00:47:46,989
plants farther apart.

1631
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:49,429
So he's thinking of it in terms

1632
00:47:49,429 --> 00:47:50,230
of

1633
00:47:50,250 --> 00:47:52,150
plant spacing relative to

1634
00:47:52,150 --> 00:47:53,250
moisture requirements.

1635
00:47:53,849 --> 00:47:56,409
That if a watermelon plant is

1636
00:47:56,849 --> 00:47:59,289
planted two feet apart in a 40

1637
00:47:59,289 --> 00:48:00,579
-inch rainfall environment, He's

1638
00:48:00,579 --> 00:48:01,739
planting them eight inches apart

1639
00:48:01,739 --> 00:48:02,739
in a 10 -inch rainfall

1640
00:48:02,739 --> 00:48:03,639
environment, and

1641
00:48:04,010 --> 00:48:05,309
he's able to produce the same

1642
00:48:05,309 --> 00:48:06,469
yields because he's essentially

1643
00:48:06,469 --> 00:48:08,090
giving those plant root systems

1644
00:48:08,090 --> 00:48:10,010
access to much larger soil

1645
00:48:10,260 --> 00:48:12,699
volume to absorb more water.

1646
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:15,110
So I found that idea pretty

1647
00:48:15,110 --> 00:48:16,210
intriguing, and that kind of

1648
00:48:16,210 --> 00:48:18,530
aligns with your idea of plant

1649
00:48:18,530 --> 00:48:19,330
spacing.

1650
00:48:20,630 --> 00:48:22,469
Now what is interesting, I

1651
00:48:22,780 --> 00:48:23,580
don't know about in your

1652
00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:25,840
context, but in

1653
00:48:28,980 --> 00:48:30,219
If you go further east,

1654
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,019
where there's this long

1655
00:48:32,019 --> 00:48:33,659
-standing historical practice of

1656
00:48:33,659 --> 00:48:35,300
a summer fallow in dryland

1657
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:36,860
farming, with wheat farming and

1658
00:48:36,860 --> 00:48:37,660
so forth,

1659
00:48:39,550 --> 00:48:40,949
this idea of having a summer

1660
00:48:40,949 --> 00:48:42,730
fallow, of not having any plants

1661
00:48:42,730 --> 00:48:43,530
growing,

1662
00:48:44,070 --> 00:48:46,750
and of conserving moisture by

1663
00:48:46,750 --> 00:48:48,110
having the soil bare and

1664
00:48:48,110 --> 00:48:49,090
uncovered, you know, when you

1665
00:48:49,090 --> 00:48:50,510
start thinking about soil

1666
00:48:50,510 --> 00:48:52,530
dynamics and evapotranspiration,

1667
00:48:52,610 --> 00:48:54,449
the idea seems kind of not so

1668
00:48:54,449 --> 00:48:55,989
smart after you really dig into

1669
00:48:55,989 --> 00:48:56,789
it.

1670
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:58,280
But

1671
00:48:58,739 --> 00:49:00,099
I'm trying to remember

1672
00:49:03,250 --> 00:49:04,250
A couple of growers I was

1673
00:49:04,250 --> 00:49:05,469
visiting with at an event this

1674
00:49:05,469 --> 00:49:06,710
last winter told me about this

1675
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:07,510
research.

1676
00:49:07,929 --> 00:49:08,909
I don't remember if it was the

1677
00:49:08,909 --> 00:49:10,190
University of Nebraska or

1678
00:49:10,190 --> 00:49:11,449
Colorado, but it was out in that

1679
00:49:11,449 --> 00:49:12,250
area somewhere.

1680
00:49:13,050 --> 00:49:15,690
And they studied soil water

1681
00:49:15,690 --> 00:49:17,030
dynamics and they came to the

1682
00:49:17,030 --> 00:49:18,510
conclusion that when you have a

1683
00:49:18,510 --> 00:49:19,710
summer fallow, you have bare

1684
00:49:19,710 --> 00:49:20,510
soil,

1685
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,000
you actually keep

1686
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,099
only 20 % of the water that

1687
00:49:25,099 --> 00:49:25,900
lands.

1688
00:49:26,019 --> 00:49:28,360
So the benefits of that bare

1689
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:29,920
fallow are actually very

1690
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:30,720
minimal.

1691
00:49:31,219 --> 00:49:32,019
Now,

1692
00:49:32,519 --> 00:49:34,739
in your case, where you have

1693
00:49:35,469 --> 00:49:38,250
this dust mulch,

1694
00:49:39,369 --> 00:49:42,369
are you actually able to keep

1695
00:49:42,369 --> 00:49:43,809
more of that of what fell during

1696
00:49:43,809 --> 00:49:44,610
the winter months?

1697
00:49:45,250 --> 00:49:46,289
I don't know. I don't know the

1698
00:49:46,289 --> 00:49:48,570
answer to that, but I have a

1699
00:49:48,570 --> 00:49:49,370
feeling,

1700
00:49:50,619 --> 00:49:51,460
as we have a growing

1701
00:49:51,460 --> 00:49:52,380
understanding of

1702
00:49:53,050 --> 00:49:54,829
how plants are collaborating

1703
00:49:54,829 --> 00:49:55,630
with each other, other,

1704
00:49:55,940 --> 00:49:57,300
instead of competing with each

1705
00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:58,920
other for moisture and

1706
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,219
nutrients, when we have really

1707
00:50:00,219 --> 00:50:01,880
good biology and quorum sensing,

1708
00:50:02,949 --> 00:50:05,840
there are many instances

1709
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,179
emerging and observations

1710
00:50:07,179 --> 00:50:09,219
emerging where we realize that

1711
00:50:09,849 --> 00:50:10,989
the idea that plants

1712
00:50:11,909 --> 00:50:13,550
inherently compete with each

1713
00:50:13,550 --> 00:50:14,869
other always is

1714
00:50:15,539 --> 00:50:16,340
not true.

1715
00:50:16,659 --> 00:50:18,719
They can, they do sometimes, but

1716
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,059
it's not an inherent de facto

1717
00:50:21,059 --> 00:50:21,860
status.

1718
00:50:23,590 --> 00:50:24,989
So understanding what those

1719
00:50:24,989 --> 00:50:26,570
variables are, I think, is very

1720
00:50:26,570 --> 00:50:28,429
important for us to figure out.

1721
00:50:28,590 --> 00:50:29,390
Because

1722
00:50:29,590 --> 00:50:32,690
I'm of the opinion

1723
00:50:32,690 --> 00:50:33,969
that it

1724
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:35,719
is going to be possible for us

1725
00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:38,219
in most environments to identify

1726
00:50:38,590 --> 00:50:41,349
companion plants and

1727
00:50:41,349 --> 00:50:43,250
collaborators that share water

1728
00:50:43,250 --> 00:50:44,530
instead of competing for water.

1729
00:50:44,590 --> 00:50:45,829
And all of a sudden, the idea of

1730
00:50:45,829 --> 00:50:47,210
a summer fallow or

1731
00:50:47,650 --> 00:50:50,090
a dust mulch becomes obsolete.

1732
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:53,800
I don't know if that was really

1733
00:50:53,780 --> 00:50:54,739
the answer to your question.

1734
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:56,619
Well, I agree with your thoughts

1735
00:50:56,619 --> 00:50:57,420
on that.

1736
00:50:57,639 --> 00:50:59,239
But the guys that do it don't,

1737
00:50:59,599 --> 00:51:00,840
I can tell you that.

1738
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:04,039
So I brought you a couple of

1739
00:51:04,039 --> 00:51:04,840
them.

1740
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,239
Yeah, you've got to.

1741
00:51:07,699 --> 00:51:08,500
You know,

1742
00:51:09,699 --> 00:51:10,500
there is this

1743
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,079
challenging aspect of being

1744
00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:15,559
human and human psychology that

1745
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:17,679
most of us are

1746
00:51:18,949 --> 00:51:20,630
only willing to consider making

1747
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:23,969
changes when the actual pain

1748
00:51:23,969 --> 00:51:26,650
of not changing becomes greater

1749
00:51:26,650 --> 00:51:28,389
than the perceived pain of

1750
00:51:28,389 --> 00:51:29,190
changing.

1751
00:51:31,849 --> 00:51:35,050
So that's why we have in so many

1752
00:51:35,050 --> 00:51:36,929
domains there are breakthroughs

1753
00:51:36,929 --> 00:51:39,269
where a lot of advances are made

1754
00:51:39,269 --> 00:51:40,429
in science and so forth, but

1755
00:51:40,429 --> 00:51:41,869
they're not implemented for 20

1756
00:51:41,869 --> 00:51:44,210
or 30 or 40 years because people

1757
00:51:45,059 --> 00:51:46,260
prefer not to change.

1758
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:47,280
Yes.

1759
00:51:48,070 --> 00:51:50,090
Well, when I was actually

1760
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:51,610
working for a living in the old

1761
00:51:51,610 --> 00:51:53,010
days, I read a book called

1762
00:51:53,010 --> 00:51:54,289
Change in Science.

1763
00:51:54,369 --> 00:51:55,369
This would have been back in the

1764
00:51:55,369 --> 00:51:56,170
80s.

1765
00:51:56,820 --> 00:51:58,300
And the guy that wrote it had

1766
00:51:58,300 --> 00:52:00,519
gone back to Copernicus and

1767
00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:02,920
Galileo and Newton and worked

1768
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,780
his way through to current times

1769
00:52:04,780 --> 00:52:06,460
and came to the conclusion was

1770
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:08,639
that science does not change

1771
00:52:08,639 --> 00:52:10,300
until the last professor from

1772
00:52:10,300 --> 00:52:11,599
the old regime dies.

1773
00:52:13,079 --> 00:52:13,980
That's exactly right.

1774
00:52:14,059 --> 00:52:15,739
It says Thomas Kuhn, The Nature

1775
00:52:15,739 --> 00:52:16,980
of Scientific Revolutions.

1776
00:52:17,599 --> 00:52:19,460
That's the foundational premise

1777
00:52:19,460 --> 00:52:20,599
of a couple of hundred page,

1778
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:21,880
very well written book.

1779
00:52:22,179 --> 00:52:22,980
The

1780
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,019
nature of scientific revolutions

1781
00:52:25,019 --> 00:52:26,460
is when the old guard dies off.

1782
00:52:27,079 --> 00:52:27,960
Exactly right.

1783
00:52:28,519 --> 00:52:29,639
Sounds about true, I think.

1784
00:52:30,389 --> 00:52:32,110
How much of that is true in

1785
00:52:32,110 --> 00:52:32,910
farming?

1786
00:52:34,639 --> 00:52:36,219
Well, I would say the same.

1787
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,719
I don't know. You have a hell of

1788
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:38,940
a lot more experience in farming

1789
00:52:38,940 --> 00:52:39,740
than I do.

1790
00:52:40,750 --> 00:52:42,989
There's some pretty old codgers

1791
00:52:42,989 --> 00:52:44,449
around that have got pretty set

1792
00:52:44,449 --> 00:52:45,269
views of the world.

1793
00:52:47,130 --> 00:52:47,930
You know, there's this

1794
00:52:47,829 --> 00:52:48,630
interesting phenomenon.

1795
00:52:48,809 --> 00:52:50,010
I've spoken about this a couple

1796
00:52:50,010 --> 00:52:51,050
of times, but a lot of people

1797
00:52:51,050 --> 00:52:53,380
don't realize there

1798
00:52:53,949 --> 00:52:55,489
is this what is called the

1799
00:52:55,489 --> 00:52:57,090
theory of diffusion,

1800
00:52:57,670 --> 00:52:58,829
the diffusion of innovations.

1801
00:52:59,570 --> 00:53:01,530
And it's how new ideas and new

1802
00:53:01,530 --> 00:53:02,889
technologies get adopted.

1803
00:53:03,070 --> 00:53:04,030
It was originally the original

1804
00:53:04,030 --> 00:53:06,130
research in the 1970s by Everett

1805
00:53:06,130 --> 00:53:06,930
Rogers.

1806
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,360
And people may not be familiar

1807
00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,780
with the theory by those terms,

1808
00:53:12,900 --> 00:53:13,900
but they're very familiar with

1809
00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:14,700
the language.

1810
00:53:14,619 --> 00:53:16,179
The marketers have made the

1811
00:53:16,179 --> 00:53:17,460
language popular, talking about

1812
00:53:17,460 --> 00:53:19,139
the innovators and the early

1813
00:53:19,139 --> 00:53:20,539
adopters and the early majority

1814
00:53:20,539 --> 00:53:21,559
and the late majority and so

1815
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:23,380
forth. What a lot of people

1816
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:25,179
don't realize is that that

1817
00:53:25,179 --> 00:53:27,059
original foundational research

1818
00:53:27,059 --> 00:53:28,920
was done on farmers,

1819
00:53:29,989 --> 00:53:32,369
specifically on how farmers in

1820
00:53:32,369 --> 00:53:34,610
Iowa adopted hybrid seed corn

1821
00:53:34,610 --> 00:53:35,410
technology.

1822
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:36,640
Interesting.

1823
00:53:37,099 --> 00:53:39,579
And of course the research has

1824
00:53:39,579 --> 00:53:41,280
expanded now far beyond that

1825
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,480
original scope, but there's a

1826
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:44,340
lot of research on how farmers

1827
00:53:44,340 --> 00:53:46,320
adopt new information.

1828
00:53:47,389 --> 00:53:48,190
And

1829
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,110
Simon Sinek says it very

1830
00:53:51,110 --> 00:53:52,670
well when he speaks about the

1831
00:53:52,670 --> 00:53:54,469
last category, the laggards.

1832
00:53:55,349 --> 00:53:57,269
The laggards are those people

1833
00:53:57,269 --> 00:53:59,190
which only, the only reason they

1834
00:53:59,190 --> 00:54:00,449
use touch -tone phones is

1835
00:54:00,449 --> 00:54:01,690
because they don't make dial

1836
00:54:01,690 --> 00:54:03,469
tone or ring -tone, ring -dial

1837
00:54:03,469 --> 00:54:04,269
phones anymore.

1838
00:54:05,269 --> 00:54:07,269
And you look at the demographics

1839
00:54:07,269 --> 00:54:09,090
of what is present in

1840
00:54:09,090 --> 00:54:09,929
agriculture today,

1841
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,219
There's a lot of variation in

1842
00:54:13,219 --> 00:54:14,639
subgroups, but you look at the

1843
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:16,059
commodity production across the

1844
00:54:16,059 --> 00:54:19,110
Midwest and agriculture largely

1845
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:20,700
is

1846
00:54:21,090 --> 00:54:22,510
a group of elderly people who've

1847
00:54:22,510 --> 00:54:23,570
built up a lot of equity.

1848
00:54:24,070 --> 00:54:26,150
And the development of air

1849
00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:27,510
conditioned cabs and tractors

1850
00:54:27,510 --> 00:54:28,869
and combines has allowed them to

1851
00:54:28,869 --> 00:54:30,730
keep farming into their 70s and

1852
00:54:30,730 --> 00:54:32,010
80s, when historically they

1853
00:54:32,010 --> 00:54:33,130
would have been ejected from the

1854
00:54:33,130 --> 00:54:33,989
tractor seat. They would have

1855
00:54:33,989 --> 00:54:34,949
not been comfortable in the

1856
00:54:34,949 --> 00:54:36,250
tractor seat 50 years ago.

1857
00:54:36,989 --> 00:54:37,789
And

1858
00:54:38,269 --> 00:54:41,590
so it's it's that entrenchment

1859
00:54:41,590 --> 00:54:42,390
of age

1860
00:54:43,219 --> 00:54:44,059
and

1861
00:54:44,730 --> 00:54:46,769
the proclivity of age to be

1862
00:54:46,769 --> 00:54:48,190
somewhat resistant to change.

1863
00:54:49,010 --> 00:54:50,110
That is, I mean, all of those

1864
00:54:50,110 --> 00:54:52,039
are contributing factors to why

1865
00:54:52,039 --> 00:54:54,619
we have this inherent resistance

1866
00:54:54,619 --> 00:54:55,719
to change in so much of

1867
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:56,519
agriculture.

1868
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:58,880
Yep. I can believe it.

1869
00:54:59,769 --> 00:55:00,969
Well, you know, in the

1870
00:55:01,190 --> 00:55:03,110
technology world, you kind of

1871
00:55:03,110 --> 00:55:03,910
have a,

1872
00:55:04,110 --> 00:55:05,230
you have, you have the flip side

1873
00:55:05,230 --> 00:55:06,030
of that. They call it the

1874
00:55:05,969 --> 00:55:06,889
innovators dilemma.

1875
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:09,079
So these, these technology

1876
00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:10,239
people come along and they

1877
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:11,039
launch a

1878
00:55:11,369 --> 00:55:13,710
successful company that they

1879
00:55:13,710 --> 00:55:14,550
grow like crazy.

1880
00:55:14,670 --> 00:55:17,050
They hire 50 ,000 people, make a

1881
00:55:17,050 --> 00:55:17,850
lot of money.

1882
00:55:18,679 --> 00:55:19,940
And then 10 years later,

1883
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:23,059
another company launches with a

1884
00:55:23,059 --> 00:55:25,420
product that actually is better

1885
00:55:25,420 --> 00:55:26,220
than them.

1886
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:27,080
And makes their zobs lead.

1887
00:55:27,559 --> 00:55:29,079
And they're unable to adapt.

1888
00:55:29,739 --> 00:55:30,880
They've got the huge

1889
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,139
infrastructure in place.

1890
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,760
And even though the boss can see

1891
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:35,800
the problem, he cannot

1892
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,280
communicate it down the chain

1893
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:38,080
and get it done.

1894
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:39,739
Well, agriculture is the same

1895
00:55:39,739 --> 00:55:41,880
way. we also, we also have a lot

1896
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,059
of, of incumbent infrastructure

1897
00:55:44,059 --> 00:55:46,340
that isn't easy to, and it's

1898
00:55:46,340 --> 00:55:47,860
highly leveraged in many cases.

1899
00:55:47,860 --> 00:55:49,920
So you're committed from a debt

1900
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:51,179
and the capitalization structure

1901
00:55:51,179 --> 00:55:52,239
perspective where it's very

1902
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:53,039
difficult to pivot.

1903
00:55:54,619 --> 00:55:56,980
You know, going back to that

1904
00:55:56,980 --> 00:55:58,199
Scottsdale meeting, that's the

1905
00:55:58,199 --> 00:55:59,460
first time I've ever gone to,

1906
00:56:00,019 --> 00:56:02,099
to that kind of a, of a session.

1907
00:56:02,199 --> 00:56:03,400
And that was one of the

1908
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:04,639
learnings that I got out of it

1909
00:56:04,639 --> 00:56:06,199
was just the challenge.

1910
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,079
that the kind of the traditional

1911
00:56:08,780 --> 00:56:11,059
farm people are faced with with

1912
00:56:11,059 --> 00:56:12,840
that whole situation of

1913
00:56:13,019 --> 00:56:14,280
declining

1914
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,760
margins and

1915
00:56:17,929 --> 00:56:19,449
being kind of locked into

1916
00:56:19,449 --> 00:56:21,230
different techniques and

1917
00:56:21,230 --> 00:56:23,550
approaches through insurance and

1918
00:56:23,550 --> 00:56:24,409
through loans and

1919
00:56:24,750 --> 00:56:25,550
whatever.

1920
00:56:25,570 --> 00:56:26,370
It's a

1921
00:56:26,550 --> 00:56:27,750
pretty tough situation.

1922
00:56:28,559 --> 00:56:29,360
Yeah.

1923
00:56:30,090 --> 00:56:31,730
So I asked you this question

1924
00:56:31,730 --> 00:56:32,530
earlier.

1925
00:56:32,809 --> 00:56:35,250
How do you see your operation

1926
00:56:35,250 --> 00:56:36,409
evolving in the future?

1927
00:56:36,510 --> 00:56:38,730
And you spoke very broadly about

1928
00:56:40,679 --> 00:56:42,599
the wanting to grow nutrient

1929
00:56:42,599 --> 00:56:44,179
dense, high quality and so

1930
00:56:44,179 --> 00:56:46,360
forth. But let's focus on the

1931
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:47,820
growing aspects for a moment.

1932
00:56:48,199 --> 00:56:50,360
How do you anticipate your

1933
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,860
operation shifting or evolving

1934
00:56:52,860 --> 00:56:54,099
in terms of your actual growing

1935
00:56:54,099 --> 00:56:55,739
practices, if in any way?

1936
00:56:56,469 --> 00:56:57,269
Well,

1937
00:56:56,989 --> 00:56:58,590
at this moment, I don't know of

1938
00:56:58,590 --> 00:57:00,210
anything else to implement.

1939
00:57:00,329 --> 00:57:01,469
As soon as I find out anything,

1940
00:57:01,570 --> 00:57:02,969
I will. You can bet on that.

1941
00:57:04,650 --> 00:57:06,010
So kind of for me, the Holy

1942
00:57:06,010 --> 00:57:08,469
Grail is back to wine quality.

1943
00:57:10,449 --> 00:57:12,329
And I'm hoping that as we keep

1944
00:57:12,329 --> 00:57:13,550
pushing these things that we

1945
00:57:13,550 --> 00:57:14,350
will find

1946
00:57:15,079 --> 00:57:15,880
that are,

1947
00:57:18,300 --> 00:57:19,920
when I say nutrient dense, I'm

1948
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:21,199
thinking more in terms of the

1949
00:57:21,199 --> 00:57:22,460
phenolics, actually, than

1950
00:57:22,460 --> 00:57:24,320
anything else. Those aspects

1951
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:26,150
that really impact the wine

1952
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:26,950
quality.

1953
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:28,630
I'm hoping that we'll be able to

1954
00:57:28,630 --> 00:57:29,430
push those along.

1955
00:57:30,050 --> 00:57:31,110
I'm hoping that we can build

1956
00:57:31,110 --> 00:57:32,969
vines that are really resistant

1957
00:57:32,969 --> 00:57:33,769
to mildew,

1958
00:57:34,159 --> 00:57:35,119
if we can get them stronger.

1959
00:57:35,130 --> 00:57:37,610
enough and nutrient satisfied.

1960
00:57:39,989 --> 00:57:40,789
Just kind of

1961
00:57:41,090 --> 00:57:42,550
in passing, one of the things

1962
00:57:42,550 --> 00:57:44,469
that's happened so far is that

1963
00:57:44,469 --> 00:57:45,269
the

1964
00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:48,639
progress that we've made, the

1965
00:57:48,639 --> 00:57:50,840
leafhoppers and spider mites

1966
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:52,420
that were occasional problems

1967
00:57:52,420 --> 00:57:53,400
back in the more conventional

1968
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:54,780
days are gone. We haven't had

1969
00:57:54,780 --> 00:57:55,860
those in years now,

1970
00:57:56,780 --> 00:57:58,920
and that strikes me as a

1971
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,260
good sign, and I'm hoping that

1972
00:58:01,260 --> 00:58:02,260
somewhere along the way we can

1973
00:58:02,260 --> 00:58:03,659
push the mildew into that same

1974
00:58:03,659 --> 00:58:04,460
corner.

1975
00:58:05,099 --> 00:58:06,360
So yeah, it's, it's more, uh,

1976
00:58:06,619 --> 00:58:08,059
for me, John, this is a

1977
00:58:08,559 --> 00:58:10,159
kind of a lifetime project.

1978
00:58:10,420 --> 00:58:12,500
I'm I'm my daughter is in the

1979
00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:14,079
business. She's in the process

1980
00:58:14,079 --> 00:58:15,019
of taking it over.

1981
00:58:15,139 --> 00:58:16,079
Thank goodness for that.

1982
00:58:16,849 --> 00:58:18,030
Uh, and I'm going to,

1983
00:58:19,030 --> 00:58:20,409
uh, you're not going to be one

1984
00:58:20,409 --> 00:58:21,650
of the guys in air conditioned

1985
00:58:21,650 --> 00:58:23,309
tractor cabs, but at age 85,

1986
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:25,190
well, I won't have an air

1987
00:58:25,190 --> 00:58:26,809
conditioned cab, but I will be

1988
00:58:26,809 --> 00:58:28,150
there at 85. I hope.

1989
00:58:31,409 --> 00:58:32,489
Yeah, exactly.

1990
00:58:33,090 --> 00:58:34,309
It's one of these deals, you

1991
00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:35,210
know, when you're young,

1992
00:58:35,980 --> 00:58:36,900
it's like you learn.

1993
00:58:37,670 --> 00:58:38,470
you learn,

1994
00:58:38,690 --> 00:58:39,490
you

1995
00:58:40,739 --> 00:58:42,000
know, a little bit about a whole

1996
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,079
lot of things and you just keep

1997
00:58:44,079 --> 00:58:44,880
expanding.

1998
00:58:45,460 --> 00:58:47,400
And I'm at a point now where

1999
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,139
there's

2000
00:58:49,940 --> 00:58:50,940
very few things that I'm

2001
00:58:50,940 --> 00:58:51,940
interested in, but I want to

2002
00:58:51,940 --> 00:58:53,260
know a hell of a lot about them.

2003
00:58:54,460 --> 00:58:57,039
That's really focusing in on

2004
00:58:57,039 --> 00:58:57,840
growing these grapes.

2005
00:59:00,630 --> 00:59:01,430
Yeah.

2006
00:59:01,260 --> 00:59:02,559
Well, it sounds like you're

2007
00:59:02,559 --> 00:59:03,360
having a lot of fun.

2008
00:59:03,420 --> 00:59:04,380
That's one of the most important

2009
00:59:04,380 --> 00:59:05,180
things in life.

2010
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:06,120
Oh, definitely.

2011
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:07,160
Definitely.

2012
00:59:07,329 --> 00:59:08,130
Yeah.

2013
00:59:08,590 --> 00:59:09,390
Well, thank you, Bob.

2014
00:59:09,389 --> 00:59:10,690
I really enjoyed this

2015
00:59:10,690 --> 00:59:11,490
conversation.

2016
00:59:12,190 --> 00:59:13,590
Where can people learn more

2017
00:59:13,590 --> 00:59:14,849
about your vineyard?

2018
00:59:14,949 --> 00:59:16,349
And are there any final thoughts

2019
00:59:16,349 --> 00:59:17,269
that you would like to share?

2020
00:59:18,130 --> 00:59:18,930
Well,

2021
00:59:19,289 --> 00:59:20,409
it's easy to find us

2022
00:59:20,949 --> 00:59:23,670
www .altacalina

2023
00:59:23,670 --> 00:59:24,590
.com.

2024
00:59:25,610 --> 00:59:27,050
We're located here in Paso

2025
00:59:27,050 --> 00:59:27,850
Robles.

2026
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:29,960
We would love to sell you wine.

2027
00:59:31,099 --> 00:59:32,500
Log in and place your orders,

2028
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:33,960
please. That would be just fine

2029
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:34,760
with me.

2030
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:37,800
And I don't know, final

2031
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:38,600
thoughts.

2032
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:39,960
I appreciate the opportunity,

2033
00:59:40,159 --> 00:59:41,300
John. It was fun talking with

2034
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:42,440
you. I get to know you a little

2035
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:43,820
bit face to face.

2036
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:46,100
Thank you, Bob.