Theatre~Forest~Prison: Wisdom from Aj. Chah’s Most Senior European Disciple | Luang Por Khemadhammo

Welcome to Clear Mountain interview
conversation. Today we're blessed and
very thankful, very grateful to have
Lumpur Kadamo with us. Lumpur, thank you
very much for joining us.
>> My pleasure.
>> So I'll just read a quick biography of
Lumpur. So Lumpur Kadamo or Jakun Pawan
OBbe was born in England in 1944. After
training and practicing as a
professional actor and working at the
Royal National Theater with Lawrence
Olivier among others. In 1971 he
traveled to Thailand via the Buddhist
holy sites in India. In 1971 in Bangkok
he became a novice and about a month
later moved to Ubon to stay at Watnapong
with Ajancha with whom he received Biku
ordination. In 2003, he was appointed an
officer of the most excellent order of
the British Empire, an OBBE, for
services to prisoners and for his
creation of the Anguli Mala Buddhist
prison chapency program. The following
year at his majesty, the king of
Thailand's birthday, he was made a jaun
with the title Pratt Jaun Pawani Tate.
He's the founder and abbot of the forest
hermitage and one of the most senior
western disciples of Lumporcha.
So quite the bio
and uh the first time I uh got to hear
Longpor's teachings was when I was at
Ajin Sha's memorial and I was just uh
immediately moved and so it's been a
real uh it was wonderful that we finally
got to have Longpore on for a
conversation and and Longpore to
introduce you to the audience or to have
you introduce yourself a bit more. Would
you speak about um maybe the key moments
of faith that brought you to robes?
>> Well, I suppose um uh we have to begin
with my uh discovering Buddhism.
Uh and I was about 22 at the time and I
just began working at the National
Theater.
And uh you may not realize this, but
actors do a lot of hanging about waiting
for the scenes that they're in to be to
be uh uh rehearsed and or or shot or
whatever. And uh and so during that time
I I couldn't play cards. Uh my chess
wasn't very good. uh and I used to read
and so I started reading a bit and uh
then of course meditation was becoming
fashionable. This was in the 1960s in
England in London and uh and so I
thought I'd better check it out. So I
went along to the local Buddhist temple
in Hamstead near where I lived and uh I
started practicing meditation there. I
didn't want to be a Buddhist. I was fed
up with religion, didn't want to have
any more to do with it. But uh I became
hooked on meditation and eventually of
course began reading about Buddhism and
uh slowly I I got to the point where I
could acknowledge I was a Buddhist.
And then and this was a critical moment
really for me uh during the annual
holiday. In those days, the National
Theater was a proper company and we were
on fairly long-term contracts.
So that we had three weeks holiday every
year.
And uh I went for one of my holidays to
a retreat place
in uh in the sort of north of England uh
near Stafford.
And uh it was it was a pretty miserable
place. It was cold and it was damp and
uh I was plotting my escape within about
12 hours of arriving there. But but uh
oh yes, I worked it all out. I could be
in a taxi down to the station back to
London in a travel agents and on a a
beach in Italy in no time. But anyway, I
didn't follow it through and I stayed.
And it was it was a pretty gruelling two
weeks. But at the end of it, I felt
there was nothing else worth doing with
my life than uh pursuing the practice of
Buddhism and even becoming a Buddhist
monk which in those days was not so easy
for anyone in England. That is uh so I
wasn't quite sure what to do about that.
In any case, I had a contract which I
had to fulfill and uh so I kind of took
my time. But then about a year later, I
left the National Theater. They did
offer to renew my contract, but I I
decided to leave. and I bought a a a
small cottage in Essex
and I thought I could be a kind of
part-time actor and part-time monk, but
um but it didn't work out too well
really and I didn't like it there and
eventually I decided
I ought to go east and have a proper
look and see what happened. And so
that's what I did. I set off overland
and I spent time in India going around
the holy places all by myself and uh and
then I flew to Bangkok
and uh that's where in what mahat I
became a novice on Boxing Day
and and and then a little while later
thanks to advice from a friend an old
friend who I had known at the Thai
temple in London who was already a monk.
He'd traveled out ahead of me and he was
with Wapong. And he said to me, I I
happened to meet him on a street in in
in Bangkok. And he said to me, he said,
"If you want to be a real monk, there's
only one place to go. Map."
>> So what can you do after that? I went
one and uh that's where my my life
really as a monk properly began. Yeah.
Lumpur will definitely go uh much deeper
into your relationship with Lumpur Cha
and what you learned from him and I I am
curious just to uh linger a little bit
on your training formal training as an
actor and I'm curious if there are any
specific skills that you were developing
as an actor which did transfer to skills
being skills and meditation or if it was
the opposite. I mean on one level it
seems like you're cultivating a
different you're cultivating the
capacity to embody a self as an actor
perhaps whereas in meditation you're
trying to drop that or how would you
frame that that whole uh shift in in
your life?
>> Well I I I haven't really seen it as a
shift. I've seen it as an extension.
Um and you see and I do look back on my
training as an actor that was terribly
important to me uh and has been
important throughout my life. that whole
process of of of training as an actor.
Yes. You're taught to investigate
the minds of people and you're you're
you're taught I was taught really a
practice of meditation.
And of course I used to do a practice of
meditation at times sitting in front of
my mirror making up and so forth and
going over in my mind what my character
was uh about and what he was trying to
do. And that was one of the things we we
were taught to investigate. what is he
or she trying to do?
You know, and and it and it it it um
rhymes very well with with Buddhist
teaching. I discovered
um
so I've I've not felt really I mean
people think about the glamour of being
an actor
>> and there there's bits of that in in the
life of an actor. uh that's what people
outside see. Um but it's far from the
whole story. It's it's very hard work
being an actor and being a reasonably
successful one. And I was reasonably
successful and I worked a lot and I
worked very hard. Um
people don't see that
nor do they see the kind of
introspection that it requires.
And that of course connects with
Buddhism and Buddhist practice. And I
would say that there is a spirituality
to theater and to being an actor. I
didn't I wouldn't have said that at the
time, but uh with hindsight, yes. And
and I think I was I was involved in
that. I wasn't I wasn't doing for the
money. I feel in a way it's kind of
matured beyond
what I was doing then I suppose and the
whole training of an actor and the
discipline of an actor has been
invaluable as a monk um it has made me I
realize uh and some people don't like me
for this that I can be exacting and uh
uh uh a bit severe but then I learned
from the the the the actors I worked
with, particularly Olivia, Lawrence
Olivia. People nowadays of course don't
remember him very well, but he was
arguably the greatest actor in the world
>> and one of the greatest there has ever
been. Um, but he was a stickler for
perfection and well, I suppose in a way
quite very particular,
you know. I mean his his makeup for for
a fellow I can't remember how many hours
it took him but he went to great lengths
with his makeups. So he'd be sitting
there for a couple of two or three hours
and I think almost every hair of his
beard was put on individually.
Um I it's interesting. I know in uh
ancient Greece they often put the
theater next to the hospital. So this
idea of healing the body and healing the
psyche seemed quite quite appropriate.
And I hadn't expected the conversation
to go this way. Um but I I want to ask
more about that act of embodying a self.
But before that I I really can't move on
without asking about your opinion about
the dharma of Shakespeare. Um, you know,
I've heard someone say that all Western
literature exists in the shadow of
Shakespeare and, you know, a towering
intellect like that. What what kind of
gems of of wisdom or or dharma have you
seen in in Shakespeare? How do you uh
how do you think about that writer?
>> Oh, well, with great admiration.
>> And are there any um any of the the
plays or writings of Shakespeare? um you
know do any of them have there ever have
there been any gems of kind of wisdom or
dharma that have shown through to you
from from those works uh since you were
so much
>> yes I mean well the most memorable
speech called the seven ages of man all
the worlds a stage and all the men and
women on it merely players
yeah
>> lumpour I'd be curious to move from the
genius of Shakespeare to the genius of
Lumpcha. Uh listening to a a talk that
you gave a while back, you made a very
succinct statement that undoubtedly
Lumpor Cha was a genius and you've also
said that uh you have had you never sure
if you met a more loving and
compassionate person and that he might
be the nearest thing to pure love that
you've ever experienced. Maybe one
interaction in particular. And I'm
curious if you could speak to both of
those qualities, the quality of genius
and the quality of love of Lumpcha as
you uh experienced both of those.
>> Well, if I if I start with the love, I
mean, he uh he didn't talk much about
love, about loving kindness. He did, but
but you know, it's not not something I I
remember him saying about, but he
embodied it unquestionably
and and he had a a quality
and I think this is very important. I
I've been thinking quite a lot about it
lately and and speaking about it too
about generosity. I think it's terribly
important. I saw it too in some
successful actors. Um, but I saw it in
him. And uh, and there was certainly one
occasion early on when I didn't realize
he was behind me, standing behind me
somewhere, and he called my name. And as
I turned, it was like I was sort of
dazzled by by this
uh by what he by by his presence.
Difficult to explain. Uh and it happened
again once uh some sometime later. Uh
but of course you know he he had a great
deal of of of
despite the fact that he could be very
demanding and very strict
and he wasn't an easy person to live
with on occasions. I can tell you um
he certainly um had a go at me more than
once and uh but uh you know I didn't in
a way I didn't mind that. I was used to
that. This was this was part of the the
benefit of being an actor
and we were taught very early on
you're going to be criticized get used
to it
and and it's true. And so as as a as a
monk, I wasn't too bothered. I took
notice of what he said, but I wasn't
upset or offended by it.
Um, and I think I almost expected it.
But as a genius,
he wasn't an unremarkable man
when you first met him. That was my
experience. I wasn't sort of bowled over
by him when I first met him. Not at all.
And uh and when I first went to Ubon and
went to to Watt Pong, I I was a bit
turned off by the sort of extreme kind
of faith people had in him, including uh
one or two of the Western
American monks who were present.
Uh
I I didn't I didn't really quite like
that and I couldn't I couldn't um I I
couldn't easily accept it.
uh but as time passed he really grew on
me uh and that's I think when I began to
to see the genius of the person
because and when you when you teach the
dharma well you can only repeat what so
many people have said already but you
can repeat it you can say it in ways
that make it live. He was an entertainer
and teacher. I suppose he had a kind of
magnetism.
Uh certainly, you know, there were a lot
of monks drawn to him and uh and wanting
to live with him and uh and train with
him.
uh
and his approach was
to use
I mean this was something unusual at the
time
to use the wine to use the
uh make it a tool with which you could
fashion and develop yourself.
That was unusual.
And he also of course um
developed
the core
practice of the temple which which was
also important
and and everyone
fell in with that
>> lump um it's rare we get these glimpses
into chai and I wondered if you would be
able to speak a bit more about one or
two specific stories um that really did
kind of have stayed with you since your
time with him either of faith or of him
as you said kind of admonishing you in a
way that uh kind of stuck around or
anything really just a glimpse into
Longport Cha specific anecdotes.
>> Well, I mean I was I was very fortunate
that I spent quite a lot of time with
him. I I don't think many people
appreciate that that I that I did have
that uh contact with him. Um I spent one
puna at uh at Wapong,
my fourth puner. Um and I would often go
pind with him during that time.
Uh and then later of course I was
fortunate because I came with him and
major to England and I spent quite a lot
of time with him then and I had to look
after him and do things for him
and I took him
uh I invited him to to to
visit the family home,
my parents, and that's where I grew up.
And uh so I had to take him on the train
down to Portsmouth and then across the
ferry to Gosport where my father picked
picked us up and and he stayed
a couple of nights, I think it was. Um
and during that time, first of all, we
uh
and show him around a bit, you know, and
so we took him out on a drive and the
plan had been to take him to Winchester
Cathedral, but it poured with I mean, it
just teamed with rain when we got to
Winchester, and there was no chance of
getting out of that car and getting
anywhere near the cathedral without
being drenched.
So, so we gave up on that and we turned
back. Uh, and then on the drive back, my
mother insisted that we call at uh a
distant cousin of mine, someone I hardly
knew really and truly. And so we we
called in there and of course it was
time for afternoon tea
and it was a very English setting.
So in we went and uh and the tea came
out and and all the the family there and
and my parents and so on sat around the
tea table up one end of the room, quite
a long room
and with the cups of tea and the CD cake
and all the rest of it and down the
other end of the room on a sofa sat on
and me
and uh after a while he nudged me in the
ribs
and said to me in Thai of course he said
to me
ask them if they suffer
and my immediate reaction was this is
neither the time nor the place but
about to just get out of it
and the room went quiet and they'd
noticed that he'd said something and
they were all sort of poised you know,
teacups halfway to the mouth.
And I was trapped and I had to say,
"He wants to know if you suffer."
Imagine
Imagine the they the
Anyway, I had to say to him, "They don't
understand."
And then on that same trip, so there it
was Sunday evening. He'd been in
churches and cathedrals and whatnot, but
this to leading. So he's marching ahead
to
there's always people I don't know what
they thought was happening. Anyway, then
eventually chose a pew
fairly sort of under the the um pulpit
and we filed in and that's where we sat
through the service. And uh there was a
kind of standin clergman that evening
uh who was desperately nervous and made
more so because when he got up to to uh
give his sermon, Lumpocha produced his
tape recorder.
He used to he had a small Sony tape
recorder which he was devoted to. So you
see pictures occasionally of him. It
looks like he's got a priest with a
prayer book, but it's actually
one of those little dictaphone type
things. So, Plon sat down and this poor
man, I mean, he was a nervous wreck up
in the pullpit trying to give his song.
Uh, and it wasn't very good at all. And
of course, didn't understand a word of
it, but he realized it wasn't very good.
And later on, he said back at Hamstead,
he said, he said, "Even Cayman Armor
could have done better.
Wow. I' I'd never heard that story. Um
>> not all the people know that.
>> That's fascinating. Um one story that I
have heard is seems quite consequential.
You were riding with Lumpor Cha on a
train to somewhere and you got asked him
a question and got basically the advice
that became the genesis of the Anguli
Mala prison project. Could you talk
about that that occurrence and what is
the Anguli Mala prison project?
>> Well, that that was the the occasion
when I took him down. We were on the
train to Portsmouth
and uh and
the Hamstead Buddhist Vihara. Um was
the address that the prison service had
for matters and and inquiries about
Buddhism. And I knew that I knew that
before I went to Thailand because I knew
Kaplaw who founded the English Sanger
Trust. And in fact, I went to see him uh
just before I left England. Uh he died
the same year. So I saw him in something
like August and he died I don't know I
can't remember now but in November or
December. Um but he told me that uh he
used to get inquiries from the prisons
and uh and of course when we arrived in
Hamstead in 1977
uh then inquiries came in from the
prisons. We had a letter from the
chaplain at uh Parkhurst on the aisle of
white. Another one from the chaplain at
Pentonville in London and a phone call
from the chaplain at the Women's Prison
Holloway not very far away in London. Uh
so
that was starting. There was an interest
and and clearly if anyone was going to
respond it was going to have to be me
and I was quite interested. I didn't
think there were many prisons in in
England. Uh so I had no idea really
quite what I was getting myself into.
Thought that I might have something to
offer. Uh and uh so I was I was
interested. So then on that on that
journey I thought I'd better ask Char
what he thought about it.
So eventually I rather sort of gingerely
uh put the question to him about what
you know should I go into these these
prisons? Should I accept these
invitations?
And so far as I remember
uh you know he he was he was pretty
direct and and Tai can be very direct
and so it was by go.
So that was it really. And so that's
what I've been doing ever since.
So it's nearly 50 years now. I'm still
doing it. Um and as I say to begin with
I thought there were only you know two
or three prisons. I'd heard of some
particularly the famous ones in England.
Parkhurst, Pentonville, Holloway. Those
three in fact very well known. I knew
about them. I didn't know where they
were, but I I knew they existed. Anyway,
I started going. So, I went to the aisle
of white to Parkhurst, and when I got
there, I discovered there were two more
prisons on the island, and they all
three were expecting me.
uh and uh I went to Pentonville and I
went to Holloway
and what I discovered and this was
particularly the case from the three on
the island was prisoners get move
to other prisons
and so that was started to happen.
I was see
on the on the aisle of white in the
prisons there got moved and then they
rather expected me to come and see them
in their new.
I gradually began to collect
prisons
um all over the place mostly in the
south of England.
And after a while, of course, after
a few years of this, it was getting out
of hand and I
well, I was getting a bit
run in, done in by it all. Um,
because the journeys were not easy.
I didn't have someone to drive me. You
know, people would organize a railway
ticket for me. Um, but then when I got
off the train, I'd have a mile or two to
walk. And so that was what led us to
think about
organizing things prop. And what was
happening, what discovered was happening
was that a person would have an interest
in Buddhism, an interest in Buddhism.
There'd be no Buddhist chaplain or no
Buddhist visitor. So we thought this was
just no good. we needed to have someone
appointed to each prison
uh even if there were no Buddhists in
the prison. So there was some someone
ready to go in when a a Buddhist
appeared.
So that's what we we decided to do and
we went and had a a meeting with with
the sort of hierarchy of the prison
chapy
and they were a bit suspicious of us but
they sort of warmed us when they
realized it wasn't going to cost them
anything
and and
uh anyway so we set up uncle and a story
which gives hope to many people
incarcerated.
Thank you so much, Lancor. And the story
of Angaly Mala is likely one many of our
listeners do know. Um but the for those
who don't, the story of a kind of mass
murder in the time of the Buddha who
converted um ordained and became an
enlightened being.
And one of the things most profound I
think about that story is how
the the kind of transmutation of Angulim
Mala um and how much spiritual uh kind
of power he had hidden in him ready to
emerge very quickly when the Buddha
opened that door. And I know one thing
you spoke you've spoken about in terms
of uh those who are incarcerated is how
in many ways their lives are quite
similar to those in the monastery and
that you saw this immediate parallel. Um
but I'm curious, you know, there's so
many things you could have done with
your extra or additional time in England
and as a monastic.
What uh in particular led you to feel
this work in the prisons was worth
continuing um and and giving so much
time to? Was there something you saw in
the kind of transformation of these uh
incarcerated people which felt
particularly meaningful or precious uh
such that you felt you know inspired to
give so much of your life to it?
Well,
well,
people in prison are people. Um, and
they are
they're an extraordinary cross-section
people.
But you have remember, you see, that no
one is just a criminal or just a
prisoner
or just a murderer or just uh uh a
burglar.
Um,
and
for all the terrible things that some
people have done,
they all qualities
and and I've witnessed
and and benefited sometimes too from
their generosity and kindness
and sheer humanity.
Um
so I I've been touched by that
and you have to also to realize that
that uh
their world the world of prisons
is one that is
terribly neglected. People don't want to
know about people in prison.
you know, it's
they're written off by many people, by
the population at large,
and that's
unfair,
I think.
Um,
so I've always felt a tremendous
sympathy
with people in prison.
Um
years ago,
one
particular person
being who had been in prison a very long
time paid me an extraordinary
compliment.
And he said of me on one occasion, he
said, "You love us.
I'm I'm an Englishman.
I
don't use I don't think about, you know,
I'm not a sentimentalist
and I and uh people sometimes think I'm
a bit hard, a bit uh but um it really
touched me that and I thought to myself,
well, I think I didn't I didn't say that
to him, but I I thought about it
afterwards.
And yes, I suppose that's true. Um,
and I and perhaps also I I' I've thought
about this too that
you know as an actor you're you're a bit
of a dropout.
As a Buddhist monk, you're a bit of a
dropout.
Uh, and as a prisoner, you're very much
a dropout. So perhaps, you know, I could
connect
with that.
Lumpur, here in America, there are a
number of different uh almost certainly
inspired by Anguli Mala project that was
probably uh one of the first, if not the
first Buddhist prison project outside of
a Buddhist country. Um, but one of the
programs here in America has a principle
of grip, the acronym grip, guiding rage
into power. And I'm curious if you could
speak to that. Uh, you know, a lot of
people do go to jail because this
quality of rage, this quality of anger
has just expressed itself. And it is one
of the tragedies of anger and rage that
you know in an instant you can just
destroy a life your own life the life of
another person. And I'm curious if you
could could speak to that any real
shifts or the capacity that you've seen
to transmute this quality of dosa or uh
of anger into something useful.
I've not been uh I I I was rather
shocked by what you've just said. Um
because I I I don't um
of of course people in prison
uh do get angry and frustrated
but
I I'm not sure that um that's what's
brought them to prison. I don't I don't
have that sense really. I mean, of
course, there will be exceptions and
there were and and certainly one man I
can think of um increased his criminal
activity because he was getting angry at
at at how he's he was treated. Um
not in prison but outside
wouldn't immediately say, "Oh, anger and
and rage." I certainly wouldn't use the
term rage is behind uh the criminal
activity and and uh uh that's caused the
people I see to be in prison. Um there
are many tragedies of course
uh
I wouldn't um
I I'm I'm surprised by that.
>> Okay. Well, thank you for that
clarification. Yeah. And one thing I'm
curious about is which teachings of the
Buddha you found to be most relevant um
and most transformative to the uh
inmates who you're kind of working with.
I think I think really the the um the
fact that uh people can change but also
that there are there is more to
any of us um than sometimes meets the
eye and certainly more to people who've
ended up in prison than just being
criminals or prisoners. and uh and and
for that to be acknowledged and to be uh
developed that that potential the
potential is there to do more and to do
better and even ultimately to be an
enlightened being and that's that's
tremendously
helpful really you know otherwise it's
so easy to just be condemned as such and
such
when in fact there's a lot more there
>> and lumpur which teachings have you seen
particularly useful in terms of bringing
out that potential in transforming
people what kind of practical means does
the program you've brought to the
prisons entail
>> well we we simply teach the Buddha tama
so uh you and from the very basics of
the four noble truths and and so on. But
certainly the the practice of
cultivating the Brahma viharas
we've realized is very important. I mean
it's important to anyone I think but but
particularly to people in in prison
because
uh the whole business of being
restricted and being unable to go home
and being unable to do various things
can be frustrating and uh and and make
people angry. Um uh and of course living
in close proximity you know you can't if
you fall out with one you can't go to
another room or
you can't do things that normal people
can do. Um so that that practice we
found to be very important and for
people to and this I think is important
for anyone actually
to learn to love themselves or at least
appreciate themselves.
I think nowadays
uh for a lot of people people don't
really
love themselves
don't really appreciate themselves and I
think that's terribly important
and you see it's led me to I mean I've
I've I've contemplated the Brahma for
years of course but um the the third
as it's translated
always has struck me as being very kind
of
clumsy,
you know, sympathetic joy or empathetic
joy.
um a bit of a mouthful and and
nowadays I I I prefer to think of it in
ter as as appreciating
uh the good qualities in someone and
appreciating even the good qualities in
yourself
because they get overlooked you know uh
and it's the it's the it's the negative
traits that that people tend to to focus
on and you know we we we easily
criticize other people.
It's much more difficult to really look
at someone even someone you don't like
very much and say well he may be you
know a bit uh nasty sometimes but he's
very generous.
>> Boy, I really uh appreciate that uh
seeing Muda as appreciation. And I also
appreciate the the softness, the root of
moody, muda being mood or to soften. And
um I'm curious in terms of appreciation.
Um some of the statistics I looked at of
the Anguli Mala project are almost
certainly dated, but it at one point you
had 1,600
inmate students and had trained, you
know, 50 or more uh kind of Buddhist
chaplain. Um but specifically on this in
the Buddhist chaplain training program
that you kind of created or oversee uh
one of the suggestions was that Buddhist
chaplain be familiar with other Buddhist
schools. So have an appreciation of
other Buddhist schools and be able to
kind of minister to someone who is maybe
Tibetan Buddhist or Chinese Buddhist or
um some something else. And I found that
really interesting and um big-hearted
and I've always in my mind because
you're you know one of the most senior
students of Lumpor Cha have really held
you in my mind as like this bastion of
you know pure terraada in my mind
and and and I'm curious if you could
could speak to that either is this just
a skillful means with the prisoners or
do do you yourself have an appreciation
of these other schools or how Does how
do you suggest that any individual
whether prisoner, inmate or just you
know lay person or monk you know uh
relate to these other Buddhist schools
and possibly taking their skillful means
on.
Well, for a start, it it's it's been a
necessity for for uh Buddhist chaplain
because uh as we know, there are many
schools of Buddhism and uh and
while for the most part
uh Buddhist or prisoners who who
register as Buddhist um
don't have strong affiliations with any
one school. Every so often we do do get
someone who is you know a died in the
wool um uh terraaden or or Tibetan or
Tibetan
uh of one school or another or Zen
person or whatever. Um and
we have to be able to relate to them and
and even to encourage them in their
path.
Uh so
we set out in the beginning to say that
we would offer what I will prefer to
call essential Buddhism, the essence
which means really the four noble
truths, noble eight-fold path, um some
teachings on karma and rebirth and so
on. but to not go into the
controversies.
Um, now when I first got into Buddhism
in this country, one of the things that
was
rather off-putting
was that if you went to different
places, they would tend to speak ill of
other places.
Um, and that has been a feature of
western Buddhism.
Uh, and and and I don't like that very
much.
So I would prefer
to
bring people together than to divide
people.
Um, and I think really it's very
important within the Buddhist world that
we try and do that. I that doesn't mean
that we've all got to agree. You know, I
I have friends who I can disagree with.
Um
but uh
there I I would rather promote good
relations and friendship and
yes and and recently
we've uh we've set up a course for the
Buddhist chaplain uh because I've been
concerned for a long time. It's been my
my responsibility now for many years to
endorse
uh the Buddhist prison chaplain to say
that a certain suitable uh to Buddhist
prison
concern for me always has been about
really how much they know and so forth.
We have no qualification.
Um so I wanted to bring about a
qualification for our Buddhist prison
chaplain
and uh a few years ago
um the Buddhist university, one of the
Buddhist universities in Thailand
um
published a book called Common Buddhist
texts
and it's very good. But when I first
heard about it, I wondered if it would
be, you know, much
>> useful.
But yeah, I I I I had my doubts. But
when I saw it, I was very impressed.
And it's taking it's taking
um the the the the basic themes of
Buddhism which occur in all the schools
and giving quotations from texts on
those you know say what does the
Mahayana have to say about karma what
does the terraada say and it's very very
interesting and it has effect of
bringing the schools together
um it's not saying they're all the same
or that we agree. Um, but it's not
pointing up the differences. It's
pointing up what we have in common.
And and it's it's marvelous because it's
it it it it
enriches your your understanding of
things because you it it it expands your
your consideration of what karma might
mean. for example.
Um and uh and so we've based a course
for the Buddhist prison chaplain on that
book
and and we've we've just uh started it
now. It's uh we've got a few people
doing it. Um and it's being very
successful.
And the way we run it is that um uh we
use the book but each student has a
mentor and the mentor is an experienced
Buddhist prison chaplain.
So it's also learning to use the
teachings, use what we find in the book
um with the prisoners. How would you use
this? because we're we're dealing with a
very specialized world really. It's not
the same as out there. This these are
these are people of a diff of not not
not um not not exactly different but
they are in a particular situation.
>> Um and uh and it's going quite well. Of
course, we're we're learning as we go
along, but I'm really very pleased with
it.
Yeah,
>> Lumpur, just as there's meaning in
finding these common elements between
the schools, um I find a lot of meaning
in hearing about the particularities of
the individuals uh involved and the
stories of, you know, I'm I'm the story
guy among between us. Um, and so I know
you can't go into names or any too many
specifics at all, but I did wonder if
you could just um ground these these
programs and this history in maybe one
or two um anecdotes or stories of some
person you've worked with who've really
been changed over these years by the
work uh in the prisons.
>> The changes the changes are changes that
they make themselves. Um, and they and
they make themselves
influenced by what they're they're
learning and and hearing uh about
Buddhist practice. And
people don't quite realize this,
I think, but an awful lot of people
having messed up their lives,
um, are desperate to put things right
and and to have a a good place in
society. Um so so when they take up the
Buddha tama it's it's a means they
realize of of of
purifying themselves of leaving behind
what they've done and so forth. Uh
yes I know I I I I have one or two
stories but I I dare I tell them I think
>> I understand what part.
Lapour, I'm I'm curious. We've mentioned
some of these kind of accolades that
you've gotten. You know, you were given
by the queen of England the title of
OBBE, given by the king of Thailand the
title of Jaoun Pawitate,
by the president of Maha Chula, one of
the great universities of of Thailand,
an honorary doctorate given by the
president of Burma, the title of Auga
Maha Sadama Jotikica Daja. very long
titles and
you know we've got these teachings in
the suta nikaya you know a whole chapter
on gain honor and praise you know
dreadful or gain honor and praise like a
horsehair uh rope or like a barbed uh
dagger or like a lightning bolt like a
dung for a dung beetle and I'm curious
just how you hold that you've been a
monk for a long time um so yeah How how
have you held that? Is it is it been
strange getting all these worldly
accolades given that you became a monk,
all of us become monks to kind of give
that up in a sense? I'm just curious for
advice.
>> Well,
the the OBBE was um what one one thing
about all of them is that that I've
really enjoyed the ceremonies.
Um
but apart from that of course you know
well they have some meaning for for for
particular groups of people I suppose
you would say and and the obbe had
tremendous meaning for the prisoners.
It really did and and I was so pleased
by the um uh the fact that it was given
for services to prisoners. I was very
pleased with that.
Um and it did give me has given me a bit
more
um
I suppose respectability and uh
and that I think has been useful in in
in what I've done with the prisons and
being able to speak about stuff in
prison.
It's uh
yeah so that that's been useful. The
others
um have been you know various groups of
people have been impressed or or not I
don't know but
>> memorize the whole length of the Burmese
title.
>> Yeah it's impressive. I mean I would
translate it but it would take a while.
So uh yeah
>> one for um
>> it was a wonderful ceremony.
>> It's it's interesting we have um you
know we we were writing out the
different questions we had for you and
they're just all these little facets of
different parts of your life which I I
think are really worth asking about. And
one we haven't touched on um is uh kind
of monasticism um in itself. And I
remember the first talk I heard you
giving, I think you said, you know, they
said I wouldn't make it, but here I am.
And uh, you know, and something like
that. It was a certain uh kind of
appreciation for the fact that you've
managed to stay in robes for so many
years. And um, and I'm curious, you
know, what have you seen as the key
element keeping someone in in robes as
as a monastic? What what have you seen
as uh kind of the quintessential
ingredient?
>> Well, I mean, for me, it's it's it's
the best thing to be doing.
Um, and and
you know, I can't I can't really
I can't really I suppose
uh
not quite sure how to put all this
really. Um,
as as we all know, it can be quite a
difficult life at times and and
certainly it's been so for me. It hasn't
been easy.
Um,
but
you can't go back in in in life. I don't
want to go back. Um, you've got to go
forward.
And uh
and and this
for me is is is the is is is the best
thing to be doing. It's the highest and
the best thing to be doing. I may not be
doing it as well as I'd like to
and uh and sort of certainly looking
back, you know, now I'm getting getting
old oldish.
Um,
you know, I I I can sometimes wish I'd
done a a better job of it. Yeah, I can
say that. I would I wish I'd I wish I'd
made a better job of it, but um
uh
yes, I mean I you I think you have to
hold it as the supreme kind of ideal.
I don't know if that's expressing it
quite accurately, but it's there that
that's what I hold.
So there's no there's no going you can't
go back
only go forward.
>> Lumpur um I have listened to the
entirety of every talk that is on your
YouTube channel and that might sound
like a a feat. It seems like a
and it was enjoyable. Um, but what that
actually wasn't that hard to do because
you only you don't have that many talks
on your YouTube channel. And what that
points to, I think, is just the
development of technology. You've been a
monk for almost 55 years. And in that
time, the technology of the world of
communication has just changed uh
remarkably, astonishingly. You know, you
talked about Lump Cha's tape cassette
player, but he he had a tape cassette
player was listening and even people
would record him, you know, he himself
giving that banting, the our real home,
he recorded himself doing that. And I'm
curious if your mind, so your YouTube
channel, at least this one, the current
one just started, you know, less than a
year ago. And I'm curious if your mind
has changed um about, you know,
different monks have different
perceptions about the allowance or the
appropriateness of monks having a
YouTube channel or being on Facebook or
u being on Instagram or whatever. And I
love monasteries that have strict
policies for junior monks. I certainly
benefited from that at a Bayiri. Um, but
as a senior monk, um, yeah, just curious
of your thoughts either about how media
has changed or about how you choose to
interact with media now and sharing your
your voice and your wisdom with the
world. I've certainly very much
benefited from it. So,
>> thank you. Um,
I've I've I've never been
I've never been that comfortable about
recording things and recording myself.
Um,
and I haven't had for the most part when
as as well even going back to the days
of tape recordings and so on, I haven't
had people
recording me.
Um,
and I haven't particularly minded that.
And and and somehow it relates back to,
you know, I appreciated the theater. I
liked the theater more than
uh film or television. I did it all. I
did film, television, radio. I liked
radio a lot. I liked doing radio. But um
I liked the sort of the life of of
theater.
It's a living experience. It's a it's a
living moment. Other other medium like
you know film and television and so on
and I did it all when I was an actor. Um
that's that's
to me is kind of dead. It hasn't got the
life of the moment. Uh and and and I
feel this way a bit about talks and
stuff, you know,
uh and I think that's partly why I
haven't bothered very much about
recording things. And you know,
>> we're we're glad you made an exception
today, Longpore. And um in terms of sort
of the alive moment for for people um I
we've kept you for quite a long time,
but I did have this final question. Um,
one of the most I think sort of raw or
direct experiences
um, people can have just in their week
weekly lives is um, encountering
um, people in the city or uh, you know,
on the street who really are struggling
and who I think probably as you
mentioned with some of the inmates
you've worked with um really only seeing
the the darkness in themselves or or
really conceiving themselves as cast off
or dropped out of the bottom of society.
And I know people often don't know how
to interact with with people like that
in a way that makes them feel seen,
makes them feel honored and and kind of
uh preserves their dignity. So would you
have any kind of thoughts to offer
listeners about when they encounter
people who um are down and out or
homeless or I I know there's you know
that's not the the case with people in
in prison necessarily, but just in those
difficult spots where they feel uh
looked down on. How do you uh recommend
people kind of approach those those
individuals that they feel um cared for?
>> Be kind.
Be kind. And uh and
I think really also
to treat them just as you would treat
anyone else.
>> Thank you so much for spending time with
us. um would recommend that people
listen to every talk that you've given
on your your YouTube channel. Uh people
can also sign up. I think you've got a
uh weekly newsletter uh or which I think
is you know prisoners can read. Um but
it's also got updates. You've got a very
sweet and loving relationship with at
least three tortoises, Speedy, Henry,
and Gilbert. Maybe more. But um yeah, I
really appreciate your teachings and and
your example honestly having monastics
who've come before us and kind of
trailblazed you know you are this first
generation of western disciples in the
Thai forest tradition and uh we look up
to you and uh are just so appreciative
of your time and lumpur thank you for
seeing the unseen um those who aren't
kind of uh acknowledged as much by by
society in and caring for them.
>> Thank you.