AvTalk Episode 222: They warned us it would be bad

AVT 222 Transcript
EPISODE 222
[EPISODE]
[0:00:09] IP: Hello and welcome to episode 222 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always
with –
[0:00:18] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. How are you, Ian?
[0:00:20] IP: I'm well, Jason. It's episode 222, and that of course brings to mind the famous
Lufthansa flight 2222 to Toulouse.
[0:00:29] JR: Ah, we'll talk about Toulouse in a little bit.
[0:00:32] IP: We will. We're not quite there yet, but that's the first thing that popped into my
head, as I led off the show. How are you, sir?
[0:00:38] JR: I'm good. I'm good. I'm happy. I'm home. I'm not flying. I'm not trying to fly
anywhere. We'll get to that in a little bit, but I'm very happy to be home.
[0:00:48] IP: I wouldn't mind being somewhere else at the moment, but I'm glad I'm not flying to
get there. We've got the Canadian wildfire smoke this week in Chicago, so we had the dubious
distinction.
[0:00:58] JR: Yeah. That's coming our way, too.
[0:01:00] IP: Yes. Yeah, we're sending it your way. But we had the very dubious distinction this
week of having the worst air quality in the world. We're number one. Yay.
[0:01:08] JR: That's great. I feel like, we had that distinction that just a couple of weeks ago,
and then here we go again. Thanks, Canada.
[0:01:16] IP: Your air quality disaster at least looked pretty.
© 2023 AvTalk 1
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:01:21] JR: It did.
[0:01:22] IP: I’m somewhat disappointed, I wasn't here to see the sky turn a frightening shade
of orange, and I was happily in Germany, or whatever. But I did want to see it, though I hope I
never get the opportunity to see that.
[0:01:34] IP: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Well, thankfully, it's supposed to go away this evening. It's
Wednesday, June 28th. We've got some good stuff on tap in the show this week. Later in the
show, we chat with Zac Brown, who's the Founder of the European Pride in Aviation Network.
He's a pilot for a European package express carrier. We'll let minds wander on to what airline
that might be. We talk about broadening who is involved in aviation and making sure that
aviation is a place where everyone can see themselves. An important discussion and one I look
forward to later in the show. We begin the show with talking about flightradar24, actually,
because we often get comments from people that say, “You never talk about flightradar24 on the
flightradar24 podcast.”
[0:02:21] JR: Never heard of it.
[0:02:21] IP: Yeah, exactly. I thought, it would be a good day to do that. This week, a few
months ago, we talked about the new flightradar24 website and releasing the beta availability if
people wanted to check that out. Thankfully, a lot of people did, because we got some
amazingly helpful feedback. After all of that feedback and work from everyone who had a hand
in it, it is now no longer flightradar24 beta. It is just flightradar24.com.
[0:02:52] JR: Hurray. I still have to check it out one of these days. Turns out, I use the site very
infrequently on desktop. Maybe because a lot of those features are missing, so I'm excited to
finally sink my teeth into it.
[0:03:03] IP: Yeah, so the visible changes are the site has been redesigned, cleaned up, and
some things have moved around. We've got everything in a hamburger menu now, to clean up
the top navigation and leave more space for the actual aircraft on the map. The biggest
functional changes are the new filters. The biggest change is obviously, the category filters,
© 2023 AvTalk 2
AVT 222 Transcript
because they got their own panel. Remember, now you were able to filter by categories of
aircraft. Think passenger, or cargo, or military and government, or business jet. That's all one
click filtering.
There's also a variety of additional filters that you can play with now. We'll put a link in the show
notes to the blog post we've got on filters in the new page. Then we will say, enjoy and keep
giving us feedback. Please, lots of changes to the site happened, because when users use the
site and said, “Hey, what about this?” We've been able to include a lot of that stuff. I'm really
excited that all of the hard work that the teams have been working on is finally visible to
everyone.
[0:04:16] JR: Fantastic.
[0:04:17] IP: Don't worry, Jason. As I know an avid app user, rather than then desktop user, all
of the additional features that were added to the website first will come to the apps in upcoming
releases. Don't worry, everything is coming to the apps. Some of the things are already there.
[0:04:34] JR: Well.
[0:04:35] IP: I've been using the new flightradar24 website a lot this week, especially with the
weather layers activated, because the United States of America's skies have been very active,
both with aircraft and with thunderstorms. It has not been fun.
[0:04:56] JR: Yeah. I've specifically been using some of those filters to filter aircraft only on the
ground, because it turns out, most aircraft, at least in the Northeast, have spent far more time
on the ground than in the air, which is not great.
[0:05:09] IP: Never a great thing when you have to double check what day the departure was
supposed to be.
[0:05:16] JR: Man, that's true.
[0:05:17] IP: Is this aircraft delayed, or is it –
© 2023 AvTalk 3
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:05:20] JR: We'll talk about cancellation rates in a little bit. That is an interesting point that
sometimes airlines don't actually cancel the fight. They just operate it 12 hours late for various
reasons. There are legitimate reasons why you delay an 8 p.m. fight on Tuesday to 11 a.m. on
Wednesday. There are reasons why you do that. Yeah, then they don't end up reflected in the
cancellation sets, even though effectively to the passenger, that really is a canceled flight.
[0:05:48] IP: Yeah, you didn't get there on the day that you wanted to get there. That's
happened a lot this week.
[0:05:52] JR: What happened? Where do we even begin?
[0:05:54] IP: Where do we even begin? This is one of those cases where things went downhill
and went downhill fast, and it affected, because major U.S. carriers and one major U.S. carrier
in particular has hubs in certain places, and there was very bad weather in those places.
[0:06:18] JR: In the regions, not even at the airport. We’ll talk about it.
[0:06:22] IP: Right. We'll talk about that in a minute.
[0:06:23] JR: The weather never even hit New York City proper, or even Newark. It barely
rained here at all over the last few days.
[0:06:30] IP: The impact to United has been dramatic. Looking at cancellations, just
cancellations, not even delays, looking at just cancellations because the delays have – it's
almost meaningless at this point, because so many flights have been delayed, to say, looking at
a percentage of delayed flight, it's just the system is delayed at this point. Going back to last
week, so today's the 28th, looking at the 21st, 87 flights canceled.
[0:06:59] JR: Okay, that's a bad day, but not terrible.
[0:07:02] IP: Bad day, but not terrible. The 22nd, 235 flights were canceled. Then the 23rd, that
dropped back down to 94.
© 2023 AvTalk 4
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:07:10] JR: Oh, okay.
[0:07:11] IP: Then the 24th, a 147 flights. Still, I mean, we're talking out of 4,400 flights a day.
[0:07:18] JR: This is normal summer stuff.
[0:07:20] IP: Yeah. This is thunderstorms pop up. Flights get canceled. Again, a lot of these
flights that we're talking about so far are not necessarily mainline flights. Looking at these flight
numbers, I'm seeing a lot of 5,000, 6,000 flight numbers.
[0:07:33] JR: Picking on the little guys.
[0:07:34] IP: Yeah. As we've talked about in the past, but might be worth repeating, there's often
the case where airlines, because you're dealing with weather and you can only operate so many
flights, you're going to try and operate as many passengers as you can to make sure as many
itineraries are completed as possible. I would love to go under the hood, either be United,
American, pick an airline. I don't care. I would love to go under the hood and learn a lot more
about how that system works, how those things are prioritized and what the real criteria are for
ensuring that these flights are going to go, but maybe not these flights. So far, most of these
flights have been non-mainline flight. Regional flights operated by regional carriers on behalf of
United Airlines. Then we get to the 25th, 472 flights. Yeah. 26th, 705.
[0:08:32] JR: Whoa. That’s a lot higher.
[0:08:33] IP: 27th, 929 flights.
[0:08:37] JR: This is just United and United rest.
[0:08:40] IP: This is just United and United accessories. Yes. Then today, let's see. We're up to
600, and right before we recorded, it was 625.
[0:08:50] JR: Still quite high.
© 2023 AvTalk 5
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:08:52] IP: Still quite high.
[0:08:53] JR: Let's unravel what we think happened. As most important and notable things had
happened here in New York, I would say, starting at least.
[0:09:03] IP: Jason doesn't have an inflated value as a place.
[0:09:07] JR: All important things start here.
[0:09:09] IP: Of course, of course.
[0:09:09] JR: And then they pull out elsewhere. We're also the last city to get all the good things
that the rest of the world enjoys. Let's break it down, what happened. Basically, our weather
turned into Florida's weather for four days. It did that thing, where there are thunderstorms that
just keep coming. It wasn't your typical Northeast summer thunderstorm front, where you'll see a
storm front, it will push through, flights work their way around it. Then it leaves until the next
wave.
This was just off to the west of Newark. Never actually over Newark, for the most part, but to the
west of Newark, to the north, to the south, just this line of constantly forming thunderstorms all
day from the early morning to late at night, and it just kept happening for days and days and
days. It was also compounded on Sunday by, I think, an electrical issue, or some
communication electrical issue at the FAA's TRACON facility down in, was it Alexandria in
Virginia? Did I get that right?
[0:10:17] IP: I can't remember exactly where the TRACON is, but it's called the Potomac
TRACON. That's responsible for basically, mid-Atlantic airspace.
[0:10:23] JR: Yeah. Somewhere down there, they had an issue, and that stopped all flights in
and out of a few airports, notably DCA and Dulles, which is another United hub for a good while,
which certainly didn't help that now, United had two of its major hubs completely offline. It's very
unusual for these storms to just have been constantly being fueled and raging off to the west,
© 2023 AvTalk 6
AVT 222 Transcript
and they didn't stop until today. But now United's system is so out of whack that it can't easily
recover like they would have in the past. This isn't exactly a Southwest airline-style meltdown
that we saw last December. The rest of its national system is still, they're doing their best to
keep things moving.
When you have so many crews stuck and not able to get in or out of one of your hub, or aircraft
that diverted all over the place, it takes days to reset, and thankfully, the whole thing didn't
collapse, and they didn't have to pause for a day and hit the reset button like Southwest. But it
sure seems like they came close.
[0:11:30] IP: The thing that you mentioned, I think, is important, because it opens up a bigger
conversation about delays and cancellations, and you mentioned that the weather never really
actually impacted New York City, people in New York City.
[0:11:44] JR: No, it sprinkled here a little bit, but that was it.
[0:11:47] IP: Last night was Tuesday night. Tuesday, we were just looking at parking lots at
various New York airports, especially LaGuardia, I think, had basically, ran out of room on the
ground for aircraft.
[0:12:02] JR: Yeah, there was a ground stop issued, because it was turning into gridlock. Even
with the revamped Terminal B and the extra taxiway space and the pedestrian bridges over the
taxiways, airplanes could not leave, so you can't take in any more flights. They wanted to
prevent, or at least try to prevent what happened to United and other international arrivals at
Newark, where you were having flights land and then sit around waiting three and a half, four
hours for a gate. One of those flights, unfortunately, was an Iceland Air flight, a 73 MAX with
what must have been a busted APU, which meant no air conditioning while on the ground. I
think they had to bust out oxygen bottles and all sorts of stuff. Very unpleasant. They wanted to
prevent that from happening at LaGuardia as well, but I don't think that quite worked. Yeah, go
on. Why did that happen?
[0:12:54] IP: Yeah. One of the things that we were talking about yesterday was that the
weather, and we get this people right in, on a semi-regular basis, I think, and say, “Well, hey,
© 2023 AvTalk 7
AVT 222 Transcript
how come – do you know why my flight was delayed? I'm looking at the weather, and it's fine.”
The answer is usually, that if the airline is saying weather, they're not lying to you, but it might
not be the weather where you are. It's the weather where your plane is, the one that you're
going to get on next. It's the weather where the crew who's supposed to fly the plane is.
[0:13:28] JR: Or the weather between where you are and where you want to go, which was
really the case here, where there's just this massive line of storms that just would not go away
west, north, and south of New York. For various reasons, there's lower capacity than there
should be, but they just couldn't pump many, or really at all any flights through the region. I'll talk
a little bit about why we knew this was going to happen, or at least why we knew the
repercussions of this would be so great, or seemingly exacerbated over years past, because we
knew this was coming, and I'll transition into that in a minute.
[0:14:08] IP: I think it's a perfect transition time now. I think we can certainly discuss why it
sucks.
[0:14:16] JR: We were warned. We knew this was going to come. We knew this was going to
happen. Remember back in March, we discussed how the FAA said, “Well, crap. Our New York
TRACON facility is really, really severely short staffed down to just barely over 50% of our
staffing levels, where the rest of the country is at, or around near the staffing levels that we
need.” In response to that, the FAA lifted some slot requirements here in New York. United,
Delta and American were able to shed some of the flights they normally would have been
required to operate, which is really like, I don't know, that's only going to scratch the surface of
what they would need to do.
I quote here, the FAA said, “The staffing shortfalls at N90,” which is the New York TRACON
facility, “limit the FAA's ability to provide expeditious services to aircraft operators and their
passengers that traverse the airspace.” Then they go on specifically to say, “Absent increased
flexibility, there exists a high probability congestion and delay at JFK, LGA, and EWR during
significant national air system impact days. For example, holiday travel spike, adverse weather
could be exacerbated by N90 staffing shortfalls.” They warned us this was going to happen. We
all knew this was going to happen. The FAA knew, the airlines knew. They warned the public
and they took some actions to try to lessen the impact.
© 2023 AvTalk 8
AVT 222 Transcript
When you combine leading up to a holiday weekend with these storms, it was just always going
to be a disaster this year. This is just the first time it's going to happen this summer. It will
happen again.
[0:15:53] IP: What really bothers me is you're not wrong.
[0:15:55] JR: Well, oh. We're doing this again>?
[0:15:57] IP: What do you mean?
[0:15:58] JR: That you don't like when I'm right.
[0:15:59] IP: No, no, no, no. It's not that you're right.
[0:16:02] JR: Oh.
[0:16:03] IP: This isn't a you thing.
[0:16:03] JR: Oh, okay, okay. See, I'm trying to make it about me.
[0:16:06] IP: No, no, no. I wasn't trying to do it. It's one of those things. It's like, we all know
what's coming. Here it comes and it's going to happen again.
[0:16:14] JR: Yes.
[0:16:15] IP: I get, trying to fix these problems is systemic and it's not overnight and all of these
things, but good on them for identifying the problem. The Department of Transportation Office of
Inspector General released a report last week, basically saying, that are not enough people, and
that's really bad for a number of reasons. The FAA needs to address this. One of the charts in
the report is really interesting to me. Because there are roughly 1,200 fewer certified controllers
now than there were 10 years ago. There are so many more flights.
© 2023 AvTalk 9
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:17:00] JR: None of that makes any sense.
[0:17:03] IP: To me, the idea that, how do you not work as hard as you can to make sure that
the increase in fights, and I get some of this is technology and staffing needs change and the
types of staffing needs change. I understand all that. It just seems to me that this was not a
surprise. We have more aircraft in the sky. We need more people to make sure that they're
safely in the sky.
[0:17:28] JR: Not a surprise to anyone, and it’s not a recent issue. This has been going on for
decades. You can't blame the Biden administration. You can't blame the Trump administration.
You can't blame the Obama administration, because this has been going on for years. You can
blame all of them, actually, but you can't blame anyone in particular. This isn't a now issue. This
is an ongoing issue that's been just nobody wants to do anything about it.
Thankfully, we have the DOT OIG saying, “Hey, you really got to do something about this,
because it's getting worse. A lot worse.” Not even weekends anymore, just weeks like this
reinforce that the FAA is not up to the task of the amount of flights in the schedule, plus our
seemingly ever worsening weather situation here in the US. It's not going to get any better. It's
only going to get worse. Here we are.
[0:18:18] IP: Here we are. Yeah, to cap this off, the report urged the FAA to review the staffing
distribution and to increase the staffing levels, where it's needed on an interim basis, and do
what they need to do to just put controllers where they need to be, to make sure that a minimum
level of safety is achieved. FAA should also, and this is a big one to any controller that you'll talk
to and implement a new labor distribution system that includes features, such as timekeeping,
overtime and controller in charge tracking, and real-time leave balances. Controllers are
overworked. I mean, they're looking at six-day work weeks.
I mean, in a job that is incredibly stressful. No, thank you, sir. For its part, the FAA says, “Yeah,
we agree with all of that. We're going to be done with implementation of all of those by the 30th
of September,” so says the FAA.
[0:19:20] JR: Okay. Well.
© 2023 AvTalk 10
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:19:21] IP: I hope they meet that goal.
[0:19:22] JR: Yeah, that doesn't help us this summer. If you are flying anywhere, especially in
the Northeast this summer, have some backup plans. I know, I do. I booked some overlapping
Amtrak trips over my flights, just in case I need them.
[0:19:36] IP: Well, all right, then. If you can take advantage of that little tip, please do.
Otherwise, yeah, pack your patience. It sounds like on the bright side, I will say on the bright
side, on a normal day, if we have any, on a normal day, the system worldwide seems to be in
much better shape this summer than it was last summer.
[0:19:59] JR: Oh, yeah. I don't think anyone can dispute that. There have not been baggage
meltdowns, security meltdowns, air traffic control meltdowns. This in the Northeast, this was
isolated and predicted and expected and delivered as promised. Can't say we didn't see it
coming.
[0:20:19] IP: What we said was going to happen did happen and it sucked. This one, I did not
see coming and it happened before we recorded the podcast this week. How about that?
[0:20:28] JR: All right. And no one was hurt, so all cool.
[0:20:31] IP: No one was hurt. A Delta 717 flying from Atlanta to Charlotte this morning, this
Wednesday morning landed in Charlotte with its nose gear not extended. The aircraft landed
safely. No one was injured. They are working to remove the aircraft. By the time we are
recording, I'm not following breaking news, but they may have gotten it off the runway by now.
Surely by the time you listen to this podcast, the aircraft will no longer be on the runway.
Fantastic job by the Delta pilots to get that aircraft down safely. I mean, I saw a video from
inside the cabin and unless you knew, which obviously all the passengers did, but say, you
didn't, or you had had your headphones in the whole time, you would be confused why you
stopped on the runway, because the landing looked that smooth.
© 2023 AvTalk 11
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:21:23] JR: Yeah, you'd be concerned and questioning, “Why are we not taxiing to the gate?
I'm going to miss my connecting flight.” Because it was a smooth landing. Hats off to the pilots
and the cabin crew on that aircraft for doing something pretty great. That 717 sure looks sad on
the runway from the pictures I saw. It just looks like a dog that knows it did something wrong,
and it was ashamed of itself. It wants to be better. Now it's in the dog house.
[0:21:53] IP: Oh, man.
[0:21:54] JR: The NTSB has said, they will go investigate and give it some treats and Delta
tech ops will go make it all better.
[0:22:01] IP: They're already on their way. The registration, N955AT. It is a Boeing 717-200,
originally delivered to AirTran in 2000.
[0:22:17] JR: Oh, yeah. It's only a nearly 23-year-old aircraft. This thing's got another 40 years
flying at Delta. They'll get it patched up.
[0:22:23] IP: They'll get it patched up and it'll be right. It might even be in service by tomorrow.
[0:22:26] JR: Maybe. No.
[0:22:28] IP: Who knows? We go from very old aircraft to very new aircraft. Wizz Air took
delivery of the first Chinese assembled Airbus for a non-Chinese airline. It is an A321neo and it
is going to go into service with Wizz Air Malta.
[0:22:47] JR: That's nice. I think we talked about this in a prior episode. It is done. It is real. It
happened. That's nice. Not the first time, I think. Technically US aircraft has been manufactured
outside of the US. I think McDonald Douglas with MD90 maybe had a – was there a Chinese
production line for those aircraft? I think, maybe.
[0:23:12] IP: You know what Jason? You have stumped me. Podcast@fr24.com.
[0:23:20] JR: Yeah. Google search this right now.
© 2023 AvTalk 12
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:23:20] IP: No, no, no, no. No, you can't know. We will come back to this next episode.
[0:23:24] JR: Okay, we will –
[0:23:24] IP: Because somebody out there has the full story, and I want to find it.
[0:23:28] JR: All right.
[0:23:29] IP: Yeah. The email is podcast@fr24.com, and give us the scoop. Yeah, they took
delivery via, let's see, Tianjin to Amari, to Budapest and then onward from there.
Congratulations Wizz Air.
[0:23:44] JR: Oh, oh. I have more information about that. It did happen. I didn't imagine it, but
only I think two were ever built.
[0:23:51] IP: Okay. Well, there you go.
[0:23:54] JR: Enter Air, Enter Ukrainian airspace and caused a kerfuffle earlier in the week.
There were storms over Eastern Europe, in Eastern Poland, and Slovakia, and Eastern Hungary
and the Enter Air 737 flying from Poznan to Antalya was trying to work its way around them and
flew into Ukrainian airspace. A big no-no. It flew into about as far western Ukraine as you can
get. There wasn't necessarily a danger here and it's not the passengers weren't in danger. The
crew wasn't in danger, or anything like that, but the flying into no civil aircraft in this airspace
thing is a big deal. Every aviation authority in Poland, because Enter Air is a Polish airline, is
currently investigating what happened, why, and to make sure it does not happen again. They
were avoiding thunderstorms and flew too far east. Looking at the flight track, which we'll post in
the show notes, that was quickly realized and they got out of Ukraine as fast as they possibly
could.
[0:25:03] JR: Yeah. I mean, I like the way you put it in the show notes, for you to say, “Enter Air
enters Ukraine to not enter a thunderstorm.” Yeah. Sometimes, I guess, flight safety trumps
geopolitics. I don't even know if on their flight this way, they even see the border of a country.
© 2023 AvTalk 13
AVT 222 Transcript
They just see red on their radar showing a thunderstorm that they probably don't want to enter.
Deviated around it. Whoops. But I'd rather them do that than enter a dangerous thunderstorm.
[0:25:31] IP: Sure. The question remains is, why they deviated in that direction? How they got
into the position in the first place? And they're investigating all of that good fun stuff. I'm sure
we'll hear something in a few months on that front. Good news, bad news, or bad news, good
news, I guess. Spirit Aerospace Systems machinists have been on strike since the 22nd of June.
[0:25:52] JR: Who are they? What do they do?
[0:25:54] IP: Those are the folks that build all of the things that let other aircraft manufacturers
build their planes. Spirit AeroSystems builds, what is, I guess, the most recognizable thing that
Spirit AeroSystems builds are the 737 fuselages, where you see the trains of green wearing the
anti-corrosive coating, green 737 fuselages moving westward towards Seattle.
[0:26:21] JR: Yes, definitely important to know who Spirit AeroSystems is and what they build to
know why this is just so important for Boeing.
[0:26:28] IP: Yes. Not just Boeing, though I would say, most important for Boeing, but they are a
supplier to both Boeing and Airbus. This is one of those companies that is extremely important
to the commercial aerospace manufacturing supply chain. Their machinists have been on strike
since the 22nd of June. They have reached an agreement that there is going to be a rank-and-
file vote, that they are being encouraged to vote for. If ratified, they would be back on the job
after the 4th of July holiday on the 5th of July. That ratification vote will take place tomorrow, June
29th. When you're listening to the podcast, you'll be able to go, “Oh, I wonder how they voted,”
and you can go check the news to see how they voted and whether or not they'll be back at
work. It sounds like from the description of the deal, it's a good deal for the machinists. It sounds
like they're going to vote for it and be back on the job sooner rather than later.
[0:27:26] JR: Good for them.
© 2023 AvTalk 14
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:27:27] IP: Yeah. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll be joined by Zac Brown,
who's the founder of the European Pride in Aviation Network, and also a pilot for one of the very
large and very colorful package express carriers in Europe. Stay with us. We'll be right back.
[BREAK]
[0:27:50] IP: Welcome back. We are now joined by Zac Brown. As we close out Pride Month
around the world, we thought it would be great to have a conversation with someone who is in
the aviation community and very focused on making sure that there's a great space for folks
who are from diverse backgrounds of all kinds, LGBTQIA+. We've asked them to come on and
talk about how his organization, the European Pride in Aviation Network is developing that
community and creating a place where aviation can be a space for everyone. Zac, thank you so
much for joining us.
[0:28:29] ZB: Thank you so much to yourself. It's a pleasure to be here.
[0:28:32] IP: You are a pilot with, I'll say, a large European package express carrier. Think bright
colors and easily identifiable aircraft, but we'll leave it at that and let our listeners figure that out.
I assume that's your full-time job. Then EPAN, because it's aviation, so we need a good
acronym. You founded EPAN. Tell me more about what your goals are with your organization
here.
[0:28:53] ZB: I'm happy you said that, because it's true in aviation. What is aviation without an
acronym?
[0:28:58] IP: It is nothing, in fact.
[0:29:02] JR: I do sincerely hope that our acronym is one that people can remember, if you
have to spill it out, because a lot of these Airbus acronyms, or whatever – actually, two years
after the typewriting, you have no idea what it stands for anymore. EPAN, European Pride in
Aviation Network, actually has its roots in an American organization called the NGPA that's been
around since 1990. We started off as an unofficial international chapter of this American
organization back in 2016, as more of a social group and organizing events, trying to attract like-
© 2023 AvTalk 15
AVT 222 Transcript
minded people throughout the aviation industry and provide them a space where they could
basically, be however they want to be, where it's not possible maybe at home, or in the
workplace.
That picked up so much attention and attraction throughout the aviation industry in Europe that
we decided together with the American organization to create an individual organization that can
focus itself, that can focus its needs on the special needs that a European organization may
need to attend to. That's we founded last year, the European Pride in Aviation Network as the
international partner organization of the NGPA.
Our mission is simple. It's basically, to build, support and unite the entire LGBTQIA+ aviation
community around the world, or around Europe and beyond, in our case, and together with the
American organization, basically covering the entire world. At EPAN, we basically have two
sides of the organization. The more frontal side of the organization is the community. We
basically, our members, it's a membership-based community organization. Our members
basically come from the entire aviation industry around Europe and also, neighboring countries
and basically, anybody's able to join EPAN.
We do have this focus on European events and this European community and social aspect, as
well as what we're doing with the European aviation industry. On this community side, we offer
our members various benefits, such as the safe space that I mentioned, a place where you
could really just be who you want to be, not have to worry about being looked at funny if you
hold hands with somebody of the same sex, or dress maybe a bit differently, or use pronouns
that somebody might get confused by out there and let's say, “the normal world.” We provide our
members this support network. If you have issues that you're facing, also aeromedical issues
that may be relevant in the LGBTQ world, such as transitioning at the workplace, or how do I get
a medical if I have HIV, etc.?
We also organize social events for the community to come together. Those are happening all
around Europe and basically, to catch up with old friends and meet new friends and have this
like-minded space, where everybody – I mean, most of the people here listening to this podcast
have something to do with aviation and people know very well in the aviation industry, we like to
talk about our work, we like to talk about our passion for aviation.
© 2023 AvTalk 16
AVT 222 Transcript
On the other side, we work with the industry, so we're connecting with airlines, with flight
schools, with aviation companies, other organizations and associations from all around Europe
and coming into contact with them and shining light on the topic of diversity and inclusion and
the benefits that it can also bring to their company, because let's just face it, companies while
they may know that inclusion and diversity is very important for a business, it's usually about the
bottom line. We try to come together with them and brainstorm and find out ways that we can
support their employees and therefore, also support their company in being a successful
company where everybody's welcome.
[0:32:41] IP: Is EPAN doing any work to expand the pool of folks outside the industry, who
might be thinking about aviation as a career, but going, “Oh, I'm not sure if that career track is
available to me,” as someone who's a member of the LGBT community?
[0:33:00] ZB: We are. The biggest word I could – it's a one word to that question. It's
representation. Seeing somebody that is similar to you in whichever aspect that is – obviously,
when we talk about diversity, it's definitely not just about LGBT and it's not just about gender.
The columns of diversity are infinite. One person fills many different shoeboxes basically,
whether it's a different culture, religion, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, whatever.
Something that makes you different than the person that's sitting next to you is what diversity is.
When we talk about representation, it's basically, when I see somebody that's similar to me
doing something I didn't know I could do, it motivates me and changes my mindset and it gets
me to think, “Oh, wow. I could actually do that.”
Actually, that's one of the things we get quite often at EPAN, when people follow us on
Instagram, or find a post on Facebook, or meet us somewhere, who knows, at a party, or at a
social event, or at a conference, they often come up to us and say, “Wow, this is awesome. I
thought I was alone. I thought I was the only one.” That's one thing we're really trying to push is
the whole – you could even throw a hashtag at the front of it, #YouAreNotAlone.
There are so many people in the aviation industry that are just so different and make it so
unique. Any industry is actually just a representation of society itself and our society is super
diverse, and so is the aviation industry.
© 2023 AvTalk 17
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:34:32] IP: I found that fascinating, because when we've had other aviators on who talk about
either their own careers, or encouraging young people to pursue a career in aviation, one of the
big things that we've talked about it is when they started, they weren't sure that this was a
career path for them. They didn't know anybody who had pursued this career path. They didn't
know if they were allowed to, or were able to, because they didn't have anyone in their
immediate circles. I think this is one of those important things that we've talked about and you
mentioned diversity is just being a little different and you can have different measures of
diversity.
I think one of the things that we've talked about in the past is certainly, women in aviation and
opening aviation up more so on that front. But I think this is also a very interesting thing, and the
fact that you saw an existing group and built on that and now all of a sudden, there's a
transatlantic network available to folks that are looking to enter into aviation and belong in the
aviation community, I think, that's a fascinating way to go about building a community, where
you have some unique challenges, especially around traveling long distances to different states
that may have different laws, that impact you differently.
[0:35:51] ZB: Absolutely. That's especially for the people in the aviation industry that work in the
airplane and have to travel for work. It's the sense of community, it's priceless. Because whether
you're flying within the US from, who knows? From New York City to Miami, or something and
you are new in the company and you don't know many colleagues, maybe you don't want to
hang out with your colleagues, you have this community wherever you go. Whether it's flying
across Atlantic, or over here in Europe also.
I like to compare actually, the European continent with the US in the sense that there's in the
US, there's obviously 50 states, and over here there's so many countries within the European
Union and within the continent as well, and each country here also has its own regulations, its
own laws and the status of LGBTQ people throughout Europe is different wherever you go. It's
important to provide that support network, not only for those that are traveling, but also for those
that maybe live, let's just say, for example, in Eastern European countries, where being
homosexual, or just not heterosexual is it could be a crime, you could be thrown in jail. If you
travel to the Middle East, you could be stoned, or put to jail for life, or something like that.
© 2023 AvTalk 18
AVT 222 Transcript
That's another interesting aspect is if you can't travel and if you want to become a part of the
aviation industry and you are of a diverse background and you find an organization like ours,
then once again, that person finds out, “Oh, I'm not alone. I can do this. It may still be difficult for
me where I live and maybe my family won't accept it, but I at least know I'm not alone and I can
follow along on the social medias, or via newsletter, or if I do ever get to Europe, for example,
then I could join one of these events and it's the sense of community.”
[0:37:35] IP: We're speaking with Zac Brown who's the Founder of the European Pride in
Aviation Network, but he's also a pilot for a large European freight carrier. This being AvTalk, I
would certainly be remiss if I didn't ask you about flying what is now essentially a classic
airplane. Tell us what aircraft you fly.
[0:37:54] ZB: I fly the Airbus 300.
[0:37:57] IP: I just have to ask about that. What is it like flying the most Boeing of Airbus
aircraft?
[0:38:04] ZB: Yeah, it's truly what they say. It's the best Airbus Boeing ever built. To be honest, I
can't compare it to anything, except the planes that I flew in flight school. Because, well, if you're
from outside of Europe, you better hold on tight, because maybe you didn't know in Europe, I
could fly a heavy category widebody aircraft just out of flight school. I don't have to wait the
1,500 hours that you have to do in the US, for example. Yeah, so I basically came right from
flight school. Actually, I did my flight school in the US and most of my training, then I came back
to Europe and did the EASA conversion. Basically, right after that, I got the job at this airline
flying the Airbus 300. It was definitely a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. Because in Europe,
they're not flying anymore, except at this airline. Some other airlines have worked for this
network that I fly for.
[0:38:49] IP: For those that don't know about the A300 in particular, what makes the A300
unique is most people know that Boeing has kept the control column and yoke and Airbus has
gone to the side sticker, or went to the side stick very soon after they started producing aircraft.
The A300 has a control column and yoke, so it's an Airbus aircraft with Airbus design, but it feels
© 2023 AvTalk 19
AVT 222 Transcript
on the flight deck, feels more similar than any other Airbus aircraft obviously, to a Boeing
aircraft. It's just fascinating to see that it's still available to some airlines. I mean, most of the
A300s have gone away. There's a few A300s out there flying. But also, the A310s are still out
there, a little bit more in force, but they seem to be going away way quickly. Are you on the A300
– is that your preferred aircraft, or are you looking to move on as they run out of time in the
fleet?
[0:39:40] ZB: Well, I mean let's just put it this way. If they expire at some point, I'm going to
have to switch. At the moment, so my company has two other fleets. We have the Airbus 330
and we have the Boeing 757. I'm not too keen at the moment to switch, so I'm just about to
make five years in the company. Also, in the parcel package delivery aviation industry, it's not
the same as flying passengers, so we don't fly that many hours. I have maybe about 350 hours
a year or so.
I'm not tired of my airplane and it's always exciting and like you said, it's cool to have an Airbus
that has a control column in the middle. If you have to go downstairs to the avionics
compartment, you can still see all the cables and the rods and the pulleys. Actually, I just
remembered that I believe, if you listen to this podcast right when it comes out on July 8th, I
believe it's the 40th anniversary of the first – not the first A300, but at least the first A300-600
flight, and that was July 8th, 1983.
I'm not that big of an av geek, but I did see it on my calendar this morning, because I do fly that
plane, so I put in my calendar. It was cool. The A300-600 basically got rid of the three-man
cockpit, or the three-person cockpit. There's no more flight engineers, so it's just the two of us
flying throughout the night, across Europe, across Africa delivering all those boxes. It's a pretty
cool job and it's a pretty cool company, too.
[0:41:05] IP: That's fantastic. This has been our conversation with Zac Brown, who is flying for a
package delivery service. But more importantly for today is the Founder of the European Pride
in Aviation Network, trying to open up aviation careers and careers in aviation to a wider variety
of folks, and we appreciate your efforts. Zac, thanks so much for taking the time to speak with
us today.
© 2023 AvTalk 20
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:41:26] ZB: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
[BREAK]
[0:41:33] IP: Welcome back.
[0:41:33] JR: Thank you.
[0:41:35] IP: The thing about all of these conversations that we've been having and Zac and I
touched on it a bit both in our recorded conversation, but also, before when we were discussing
what we were going to talk about, is the idea that a lot of times this all gets turned into hiring
people for who they are, instead of their qualifications, or things like that. I hope in the
conversation, we addressed a little bit of that. It's not hiring for the sake of – it's missing out the
qualified people who otherwise wouldn't apply.
[0:42:09] JR: Yup.
[0:42:10] IP: I think that's the most important thing to take away from it is that making sure that
you are not afraid to be who you are in a professional setting, so that you can pursue your
passions. So, that you can say, “I am passionate about aviation and now I feel there's a place
for me here.” Rather than, “No, aviation doesn't seem like a place where I want to be, because
of who I am.” I think, that to me is the most important takeaway. I wish them the best of luck in
progressing with that message in all their endeavors.
[0:42:43] JR: Yup. Good stuff.
[0:42:44] IP: Where are we? We're going to Australia.
[0:42:45] JR: I want to go to Australia. That would be nice.
[0:42:47] IP: Okay. We're not, but Virgin Australia is taking delivery of its first – Well, maybe we
are, but not on this particular flight. Virgin Australia takes delivery of its first 737-8. It is their first
of eight Dash 8 MAXs, and they also have 25 of the MAX 10s on order. This will be the first
© 2023 AvTalk 21
AVT 222 Transcript
route for this particular aircraft, or this aircraft type will be the CANS Tokyo, which is currently
served by a 737-700. No, thank you.
[0:43:20] JR: No, no. I mean, no to any of that. But, yeah. Virgin Australia has been through a
lot of crap recently since COVID. Probably one of the most impacted airlines in the world, or at
least airline that is still existing. Obviously, the most impacted would be the airlines that no
longer exists, but yeah, Virgin Australia went through massive, massive changes. They weren't
flying long haul at all for a good while, so very nice to see them take on an entirely new fleet
type. Well, kind of. Still to the MAX, but yeah.
[0:43:49] IP: But it's something to celebrate. On the other side of things where I get to say, “No,
Jason. I told you so,” the A321XLR was indeed part of the flying display, and –
[0:44:01] JR: Somebody should tell the French.
[0:44:04] IP: Now we have the footage to prove it. We had the good fortune to have an
exclusive on the flight deck with the flying display. If you haven't checked out our YouTube
channel, you should do that, because you get to watch the flying display from the flight deck.
We also had a nice write up with the pilots and flight test engineer talking about how that all
comes together, which is something that I'm just fascinated by how it all goes from paper on a
table, to here's a multi-million-dollar machine doing these things in front of all of these people. A
really cool write-up and a fantastic video. I encourage you all to watch that. But Jason, you
noted something that I thought was funny as well on the final day of the Paris Air Show.
[0:44:49] JR: Yeah. On the final day, they just went home at the end of the flying display, which
is, I don't know if it's been done before, or probably has, if you can name something it's probably
been done before. But on the final day of the 321XLR performing at the Paris Air Show it did its
stunts, it did all of the loop-de-loops and all of the nice high-bank angles and aggressive climbs,
and then just went back to Toulouse. Didn't land again at Le Bourget. Just continued on back to
the south of France. I thought that was fun.
[0:45:19] IP: We're done. We're done. We're going home. Thanks.
© 2023 AvTalk 22
AVT 222 Transcript
[0:45:22] JR: We're done here. We're leaving.
[0:45:22] IP: Thanks, Paris. It’s been fun.
[0:45:23] JR: Goodbye. Thank you.
[0:45:27] IP: Then we'll leave the show from Toulouse. Air Tahiti has just taken delivery of its
35th ATR72, or ATR, this being an ATR72-600. The reason we bring it up is because it has a
lovely new livery. Registration FORVX. A very, very cool new livery, so check that out.
[0:45:50] JR: Always happy to talk about new, fancy, special liveries. Well, we will never leave
those out. Such easy topic.
[0:45:58] IP: And a pretty one to look at. Very, very cool – I don't even know what the proper
name for it is, but we'll put a link in the show notes and you can check it out. Well, this has been
episode 222 of AvTalk. The weather did not cooperate in any way, shape or form and hopefully,
next week is a better week. We're going into the July 4th holiday weekend. One of the busiest for
travel. Airlines are gearing up, and so are we. Hopefully, next week we get to sit down and say,
“Hey, that went well.” But if it goes well, if it doesn't go well, we'll be here to talk about it. I am
Ian Petchenik, here, as always with –
[0:46:37] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
© 2023 AvTalk 23