Vania King

00:00:15
Speaker 1: We are in my apartment and we are all vaxed and we.

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Speaker 2: Feel good about that. And this is the first.

00:00:22
Speaker 3: Time that Caitlin and I have done a pod with another human being in the same room.

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Speaker 2: Really definitely a long time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we've done some just the two of us, but not any with us.

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Speaker 2: And I'm so delighted that you are. You are our first in threesome.

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Speaker 4: No no, no, no, no, no, no no, that's not how we're starting the part.

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Speaker 3: That's what I did in the house with Venus, and I did one with Peak Wins.

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Speaker 2: But this is the first three people panel.

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Speaker 4: The great three people make first three.

00:00:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, this is starting so well, so well.

00:00:58
Speaker 4: Fania King, Welcome to the Magazine podcast.

00:01:01
Speaker 2: It's so nice to see you again.

00:01:02
Speaker 5: You and I have met before, uh for a WTA event in which we talked about some of your work. We're going to get into, but you and Renee actually have a bit of a career history together and that might be as good a place to start talking as any.

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Speaker 6: I played with Renee a couple of times and we got together because of a mutual coach that we both worked with, Ray Ruffles.

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Speaker 1: I still consider him as one of the best coaches in the world.

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Speaker 6: You know, he really developed the foundation of my all court game and definitely in double and because of that, I would say I would not have had the successes that I had in doubles without his influence.

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Speaker 1: So he also, you know, really pushed for me to play with great.

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Speaker 6: Partners, and Renee was the best partner that I had ever played with up to that point and probably up to you know this point. And I had actually looked up to you a lot, you know, prior to play with you, So I was slightly intimidated because I had heard that you were tough, But when I played with you, I felt like you were really nice to me.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's that. I'm happy.

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Speaker 1: I remember you gave me a lot of information.

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Speaker 6: So for example, we were playing I remember we played against Lisa, Lisa Raymond, and Sam Stozer, and it may have been my first time playing against them, but don't my first time playing against them together. And you had known them obviously for years, especially Lisa for years. And I remember you telling me, Okay, if Lisa hits a low backhand folly, I want you to stay or across.

00:02:41
Speaker 1: Or at the high back in follie. Then I want you to say it was like the opposite, and then if you have aforehand, if it's low, I want you to cross, and then it hi, I want you to stay. And I'm like, yeah, I just said yes the whole time, and I'm like, oh my god, oh my god, just do one or the others. So I either just stayed or cross, and you never yelled at me. So I was like, Okay, at least you did it okay enough that she shouldn't et me.

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Speaker 6: You gave me so much information, but it was it was amazing because like you really set the stage for me to learn how to play, like how to be professional and how to make decisions every strategic at the highest level.

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Speaker 1: And so I learned so much from you.

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Speaker 5: So I'm going to let Renee tell me her version of events, which does not in any way conflict with that and blowing reports to say about how.

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Speaker 2: You get that.

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Speaker 5: But I just want to note this was you were still in your teens when you're describing this tournament.

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Speaker 4: Was your first tournament, was Renee, and you guys made.

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Speaker 5: It to the finals in which you lost seven five third to a very very hot established team.

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Speaker 2: We lost as Lisa and Sam and I thought we won.

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Speaker 3: No, we beat We lost to them in the final seven five we beat the man who were the number one scene.

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Speaker 4: You had a fantastic run out of the gate and.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and it was one of the biggest events outside of Slams at that time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was my biggest result today.

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Speaker 2: Yeaheah, that's incredible.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, you tell me what you told me the other day.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a funny story.

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Speaker 3: I love telling this story because it tells me a lot about Varnyer, but but a true story. So Ray Ruffles, who Vannye is talking about, was also my coach back in the day. We weren't working together at the time because he was working for the USTA and helping great young players like Varnya and so I had come off of playing with Lisa and.

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Speaker 2: I was kind of partnerless.

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Speaker 3: I was sort of playing with random people and Ray Ruffles came up to me in Sydney in the parking lot and he said, Grubs.

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Speaker 2: He used to call me Grubs. He's like, Grubs, you got to play with my player. And I was like what who? And he's like this this young player of got Vanya King.

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Speaker 3: She's good, she's good, and I was like, okay, Ray, she's like a baby and no offense. But she's like, how can a five foot like four little junior and be a great doubles player? And he was literally like touting Vanya like no, she's good, I'm Thomas.

00:04:56
Speaker 2: She's just a great little doubles player. And I was like okay. So finally I'm like, all right, Ray, I'll play.

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Speaker 3: So I get to Tokyo and I have never really even seen Vanya play at all.

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Speaker 1: I don't ever see yet partner, and it was like a last minute thing.

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Speaker 3: It was a last minute paying and I never seen Varna hit the ball. And so we go to the practice court and I said, oh, this is going to be interesting.

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Speaker 2: You know, let's see how correct Ray is about this.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: So I remember as soon as we started hitting and I got to the net, Vanya started dipping the ball at my feet hitting.

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Speaker 2: These lobs really.

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Speaker 3: Knew how to change the pace of the ball, and it reminded me a lot of someone like a Martina Hingis who didn't have a big game, who never had a big serve, and Varnya fit exactly into that like demographic of a player no big weapon, but my god. She totally understood where to hit the ball, how hard to hit the ball, when to hit a lob, when to go for it, when to poach, and so straight away after the practice session, I looked at Rough and I go, oh, I see it. I see I see it. You know, actually Ruff was in there, you were there with your mum. But I remember thinking right away, like, I get it.

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Speaker 2: I get it.

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Speaker 3: So we got on in the court and as Vunya said anything, I told her she was willing to do.

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Speaker 2: Obviously didn't know that she was petrified to the sounds like she didn't. But we had a blast. It was like I was playing with my kid daughter.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was like, I don't know how old I was at the time, it was probably like thirty three or something like that.

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Speaker 2: But but it was great because she was just so willing to learn.

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Speaker 3: And then obviously subsequently from that moment on, when you did quite well, well, that.

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Speaker 1: Was like the catalyst to me doing well in doubles.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I'm glad that you think that, but I think your talent took you to where you needed to go.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, it sounds like you maybe would have gone there anyway.

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Speaker 1: But you.

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Speaker 5: You know, I'm sitting here and looking at a two ton Grand Slam winner, multiple Grand Slam finals, quarterfinals. You've you had a fantastic, potactic career that has just officially come to an official end a month ago. So it is really fun to be able to sit with you a month and I think it's exactly a month you were announced your retirement after how many years on the tour?

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Speaker 1: Uh, fifteen? I would say officially about fifteen.

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Speaker 6: But I mean, obviously we played pro tournaments before. Yeah, I played pro tournaments before I turned probe.

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Speaker 5: And now that we're catching you a month into your retirement, what how has the last month gone for you? Are you sort of slowly transitioning into a life of leisure or like what.

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Speaker 1: Bring us into the data? I think I quickly ran into or walked into the life of leisure. It's definitely less stressful.

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Speaker 6: But I've been injured a lot over the past four or five years, so I would say in the past five years, I've only played about two because of.

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Speaker 1: Injuries, So that was it gave me one. It gave me a lot of time off court to kind of figure out what I enjoyed or trying to look for things that might be fulfilling after tennis. But it also made tennis very stressful because you know, I kept trying to come back from injuries, and especially I had surgery a few years ago, and never since my surgery, never never recovered, so mentally, physically and emotionally, it was.

00:08:03
Speaker 6: All kind of a wreck for a while because I've just got to the point where I realized I wasn't good enough, which is not kind of a pleasant admission. But at the same time, because I had that time off, I realized that there's.

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Speaker 1: Things outside of tennis that I really enjoyed.

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Speaker 6: And you know, like, well, we all know that to be there, you have to sacrifice everything for tennis, and now I wasn't willing to sacrifice, you know, everything else for tennis.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do other things.

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Speaker 7: And I wanted to sacrifice tennis for its So it also gives me, well, I mean, I think after fifteen years, it's only fair to sort of say, like, Okay, I'm gonna if you can't compete in the level that you feel like you want to give it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you've.

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Speaker 5: Been very outspoken and very impactful, I would say in a couple of different ways, but especially your work with serving up hope.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about that, because when we first.

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Speaker 5: Met, this was already I could tell something that had sort of captured and your heart and your imagination, and you know, involves a lot of travel, and it seems to involve a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of yourself, which I think is really cool.

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Speaker 5: It's not just you putting your name on something, it's your You're getting your hands starting.

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Speaker 2: Talk to us a little bit about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I've always been interested in the nonprofit sector. I think that when I was on tour, it is very lonely, and it's, you know, a very.

00:09:21
Speaker 6: Selfish kind of life. You know, you have to put yourself first all the time.

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Speaker 2: Don't worry. We mentioned that a lot of selfish I mean, well, the time, don't worry.

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Speaker 6: We mentioned that a lot of I mean well, every waking moment is to optimize your performance, so you just can't think about anybody else or anything else. And it's also difficult, you know that you can't really empathize with other people or connect with other people in a positive way. So for me giving back, obviously I loved that feeling.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love being.

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Speaker 6: Able to help other people, but it also helped me from a mental health standpoint, So in what way in that, for example, like with self esteem that you know I had value?

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Speaker 1: I mean ironically, even if we are great players, you know.

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Speaker 6: I felt like and I think a lot of other players, even the top players, really struggle with self esteem. And I think it's also just part of that lifestyle. If you ever say I'm fine, I'm good enough, I'm complacent, then you know you're kind of done because there's always somebody gunning, you know, always someone pushing really hard. You always have to really be super motivated to have something else to do.

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Speaker 1: You can't ever say I'm good. You know, you can't sit back and relax.

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Speaker 6: So I feel like just that, and then combined with the fact that every week we're playing a tournament, and unless you win every tournament, you're losing every week, so you know, your self confidence takes a blow.

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Speaker 1: So you know, when you win.

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Speaker 6: A match, you're like on top of the world, and you lose a match, you're just like everything is sucks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And combine that with long flights.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and then support system, and you know, if you don't have someone there that really loves you and it gives you that immediate feedback of like it's okay.

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Speaker 3: You constantly are like questioning yourself as a person, and it's a I mean, you know, I always say that sports were playing professional sports is like.

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Speaker 2: You know, legal addiction. Right, You're so.

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Speaker 3: High and yet it's so low, and it's really hard to find the middle because the middle, as you said, is complacency, and that doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: I can't really have that. Yeah, I mean I used to ask my sister.

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Speaker 6: You know, we've both had well, I don't know, I've had these moments where I just break down for one reason or another.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm.

00:11:35
Speaker 6: Training for a season and I just don't feel like I'm good enough or you know, I'm not not prepared enough. And then I call my sister and I'd be like, what if I do bad, are you gonna still love me?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: Like now I look back and I'm like, wow, I was childish, But no, in the moment.

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Speaker 6: I'm just you know, my self confidence, Like our self confidence is so fragile being athletes, and because it's so externally performance based, you know that it's one day it can be great and one day, you know it can be terrible.

00:12:04
Speaker 1: So and yeah, going back to nonprofit.

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Speaker 6: It really gave me some stability that, Okay, one, the work that I'm doing is consistent, that it, you know, can continue to help people, and that's consistent, but also you know, providing a little bit of validation for myself.

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Speaker 1: That hey, I'm making a difference.

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Speaker 6: I make a difference, and I'm I have value as a person in myself, you know, and that if even if my on court self esteem can be at zero, you know, I still have this off court self esteem that.

00:12:35
Speaker 1: Can be consistent.

00:12:36
Speaker 6: So when we met a couple of years ago, I hadn't actually officially started my nonprofit in terms of like getting it as a taxis at organization, because just after we saw each other. So we saw each other in the end of twenty nineteen at US Open. So actually the end of twenty nineteen I started the process of really organizing US from a legal standpoint, and then early last year hasn't been I mean, it feels like much longer. Finally became our own five point c three tax exempt organization, and I went to Uganda and established our program there.

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Speaker 1: So we work in a slum community.

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Speaker 6: When we had seen each other, I had gone there and I had connected with Illegal Aid n CEO, and that's how I got in touch with Uganda.

00:13:25
Speaker 1: And actually the reason why I got in touch with the Illegal to NGO is because I had gone to afric a few times because I love wildlife and so anyways, it was a very serendipitous, you know, cecuitous route to getting there.

00:13:37
Speaker 6: But yeah, I went to Uganda last year established our nonprofit program there. At the same time connected with a former player from Chile, Hanspeldlipnik.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys remember him.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, So he retired last year and he had a foundation in Chile that was also working in a slum community in Santiago, and coincidentally, he also.

00:14:00
Speaker 1: Went to Vanda, so we connected that way and his mission with his foundation in Santiago was the same as serving a pope's mission.

00:14:09
Speaker 6: So we basically took that program under umbrella later last year. So now we work in both areas of both countries, and we actually are starting our domestic our first domestic program in LA because I'm so cal at hearting with the trained in Florida for the past ten twelve years, but I'm always i always feel like a California so we're starting our first program domestically in LA with our partnership with the YMCA Metropolito La.

00:14:33
Speaker 2: Oh that's so cool.

00:14:34
Speaker 1: Yeah in July.

00:14:36
Speaker 4: Oh can we yeah, yeah, of course and.

00:14:38
Speaker 2: Do like cover it and commentation.

00:14:39
Speaker 4: I'll do some stuff sure, yeah, seriously, Yeah, that's mission for us.

00:14:44
Speaker 1: Oh, that would be since it's our first domestic program. I was trying.

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Speaker 6: I'm trying to start slowly, you know, really get that one established first. But they have met, they had mentioned, and I would all I would love obviously to be able to grow that the domestic program to other branches and have a stronger relationship.

00:15:03
Speaker 2: We're about developing youth.

00:15:05
Speaker 5: It's about getting rackets, instruction, access and participation among kids. Right, that's the unifying principle. What's the ice group that you're looking at? Mostly right now?

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Speaker 6: Overseas well, the Santiago program works.

00:15:22
Speaker 1: It's basically under eighteen because they have kids as.

00:15:26
Speaker 6: Young as two all the way up to like a college pathway, but the bulk of the kids I would.

00:15:31
Speaker 1: Say are between six and twelve years old. Cool.

00:15:34
Speaker 6: Yeah, and yes, definitely focusing on kids, especially in our international programs because.

00:15:45
Speaker 1: You know, there's little to no infrastructure there, life is very different. They have much much less than kids do in first world countries.

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Speaker 6: You know, on a day to day basis, when I first went there, you know, I felt bad.

00:16:01
Speaker 1: You know, and it was just me being a foreigner with my lens of judgment, like, oh, you know, you should have what I have. But on a day to day basis, they're they're happy, you know.

00:16:10
Speaker 6: That's the life that they're used to, and it's fine. However, the challenge there is there's no safety net, especially like from a healthcare standpoint, so if anything happens, you know, there's no one to go to, you know, they can't go to the police because it's very corrupt. If they get sick, you know, if they get malaria, which is very very common. You know, fifty percent of kids get malaria, I mean retality rates that that is, you know, fifteen twenty percent. So things that would happen here, you know that are very common and would not be life threatening over there are. And then secondly, why I feel like it's very important for us to be there and work with kids is that there is a lot of corruption and there's not a lot of opportunity for most people, you know, ninety nine point nine percent live on less than adult or a month, whereas you know, you know, less than one percent of the population have hundreds of thousands, millions of dollars, So the discrepancy there is incredibly high.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like, and it's so cliche, but you know, the older generation is kind.

00:17:16
Speaker 6: Of set in their ways, you know, in this survival is mentality, and I really feel like educating the youth is the only way forward for any society to grow and progress, you know, to try to open the.

00:17:27
Speaker 1: Minds of the young young people. Again, sounds so cliche, but.

00:17:32
Speaker 2: Give them a chance.

00:17:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, I think about.

00:17:35
Speaker 6: Opportunity to see that there's more than just surviving, that they can do something, They can make a difference, you know.

00:17:40
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think for me thinking a lot about mission and tennis in particular really benefits from us opening it up, opening up the doors, making the tent bigger, making it not necessarily only about.

00:17:54
Speaker 2: A group of stars at the.

00:17:56
Speaker 5: Very top earning all the money in a professional context, even yeah, it's can we make this sport accessible so that it becomes like soccer is played in backyards and alleys and empty fields, because tennis really truly shouldn't have these barriers. You don't have to have a country club to be able to enjoy this sport. And what I like so much about this sport is it shows you people from literally every part of the world, every gender, every nation. There there's stories of a lot of rich kids and tennis, but there's also stories a lot.

00:18:26
Speaker 1: Of not rich kids in tennis.

00:18:28
Speaker 4: And what I like about it so much is you can see yourself.

00:18:31
Speaker 5: In the tour in a way that you can't you don't necessarily do if you're you know, watching another sport.

00:18:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

00:18:36
Speaker 5: And so to me, tennis really does have this opportunity whatever it is, whether it's youth playing more or reaching or just showing and getting kids participating and feeling good about themselves.

00:18:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean tennis.

00:18:47
Speaker 6: Also, there's so many components involved with tennis that I feel like it's I I'm sure studies would show that it's like one of the most technically complex and physically complex sports. So it does benefit you in all those ways, of course, in addition to the social benefits, and you know, the opportunities that it might provide.

00:19:08
Speaker 1: And I did read an article recently, I feel like.

00:19:11
Speaker 6: It's an exaggeration or I also feel like being on tour has stressed me out so much that I've.

00:19:16
Speaker 1: Lost years of my life.

00:19:17
Speaker 6: But it's said that, It's said that playing tennis, and it really made the connection from the social aspect, but playing tennis apparently gains you.

00:19:27
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, just for like nine years, and I was like, nine years sounds like a lot.

00:19:31
Speaker 3: Well you're thinking it took nine years off of my life, yes, yeah, exactly.

00:19:35
Speaker 2: Well good news you're back your break.

00:19:37
Speaker 1: Even Yeah exactly.

00:19:39
Speaker 6: So I mean I also did well in my undergrad I studied well. I started psychology, but I did like an exercise physiology class, and I remember them saying that, you know, moderate exercise, it's like a bell curves, a modern exercise increases your lifespan and your health. And then obviously excessive exercise then you go back down to the bottom of.

00:19:59
Speaker 1: The bell curve.

00:19:59
Speaker 6: And I'm like, oh, great, you know how far down how many years or this impacted our heart that.

00:20:04
Speaker 3: As many a steps in I don't think, No, probably not, although I'm doing a lot less these days, so I'm really happy about that.

00:20:12
Speaker 2: So my bell curve is rising with the amount of alcohol I'm drinking, but.

00:20:15
Speaker 3: But so like, I love what you're doing now your mission. It's so typical of someone like you who's like beyond educated. It has always been one of the smartest tennis plays out there that I could actually have a conversation with. But let's go back to the stack of why tennis for you? Yeah, and how.

00:20:32
Speaker 2: You got into it.

00:20:33
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:20:33
Speaker 6: So I'm in New York visiting my brother, and my brother is the start of it all. So my brother is eight years older, and he, at nine years old, was very.

00:20:45
Speaker 1: Naughty in school.

00:20:46
Speaker 6: He would get like, I think he had a record of forty pink slips.

00:20:49
Speaker 1: In a week.

00:20:50
Speaker 2: Wow. So he was just a little shit.

00:20:51
Speaker 1: Yes, yes he was. I never got a pink slip in my life, in my educ in my elementary, you know, career. So it was very different from him.

00:21:02
Speaker 5: I was.

00:21:02
Speaker 1: I was obedient.

00:21:03
Speaker 6: And so his teacher told my parents, Okay, you need he's got a ton of energy.

00:21:08
Speaker 1: You need to put him into a sport or you know, into different activities. So they took that to heart. You know, Pasians are typically very obedient. So they put him into a sport and so they let him choose.

00:21:24
Speaker 6: My dad wanted him to do an individual sport because you know, my dad was very much into okay, how could my kids become successful? And he felt like an individual sport, you have more control over your destiny. And so we grew up in Long Beach and he went to Long Beach City College and there was a tournament going on, like they passed by these courts and Janet Lee was playing as a junior. And so Janet was a Taiwanese American and she was top hundred and she did really want doubles as well. I think top twenty or okay, not to standard sign yet not a Grand Slam champion.

00:22:04
Speaker 1: Or maybe she was.

00:22:04
Speaker 5: I don't know.

00:22:05
Speaker 6: Oh sorry, but anyway, So she was also very impactful, just as you know, Michael Ching like really mobilized the Asian American community to place tennis. Janet's a smaller degree, you know, really mobilized the Chamanese American community.

00:22:22
Speaker 1: So my brother saw her and you know, you see somebody that's like you and yeah, yeah, and.

00:22:29
Speaker 6: So he chose tennis. And then he also they enrolled him into piano. So he's also a good pianist. And then my parents didn't have a lot of money, like honestly, we were pretty poor when we were growing up, so it wasn't like we had a lot of opportunities to do a lot of different things. My parents, by the time I came along, did enroll us into different classes, but in terms of, you know, focusing on one sport, it is very expensive the more you get involved in any activity. So we just followed him. I remember, so I have two sisters. So it's my brother, my two sisters who are twins. They're two and a half years older.

00:23:05
Speaker 1: Than me, and then me.

00:23:06
Speaker 6: So my sisters and I just the three of us were like little triplets following my brother. And my brother was a really good junior and we were known as Philip King's little sisters for so long, and yeah, that was our claim to fame, you know, because my brother was.

00:23:22
Speaker 1: He actually was super talented. He was the number one junior in the US when he was seventeen eighteen. He won column the Zoo twice.

00:23:28
Speaker 2: That's insane. And he was All American at Duke. Yeah, he was a legit.

00:23:31
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I only got to college, but like for in my world.

00:23:35
Speaker 6: He was a I mean I think I mean obviously wasn't there, but I think that college hurt his tennis. I think he may have wanted to get away from California, Like, what's he doing now?

00:23:47
Speaker 1: He's a trader, so he's doing plenty fine.

00:23:50
Speaker 6: Now, yeah, yes, he's doing He's doing very fine fine.

00:23:56
Speaker 2: So maybe I'm not the wrong decision.

00:23:58
Speaker 1: No, I mean, for.

00:23:59
Speaker 6: Tennis wise, I think that, like, I think he really enjoyed the team aspect.

00:24:04
Speaker 1: But you know, being the number one prospect, it's hard to find competition.

00:24:09
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's hard to find a college that would really nurture one person's talent, you know, and that's not what it's there for. So but I know he really loved being a duke. He did his NBA there as well. So anyways, long story short, Sorry, went on a tangent, as I typically do.

00:24:25
Speaker 1: But I started because with.

00:24:26
Speaker 5: My brother and you saw him and you were excited and you got into it. And so does that mean your sisters played it?

00:24:31
Speaker 6: Yes, so my sisters they were. It's nationally ranked, so both.

00:24:37
Speaker 1: I think top fifty in the country.

00:24:38
Speaker 6: My Yvana went to Princeton and then Midie went to penn Very too smart cookies.

00:24:43
Speaker 2: Yes, they're all very smart.

00:24:45
Speaker 3: Cookie So take me back to the period of time where you started to be pro and playing. And do you remember like the one match where you were like, oh, yeah, I'm actually can I can do this for a living?

00:24:54
Speaker 2: I can.

00:24:55
Speaker 3: I'm I'm a player other than playing with me in toky. Is there a time where you realize it, I can actually play with the big guns on here.

00:25:06
Speaker 1: Yes and no, Yes and no.

00:25:08
Speaker 6: I mean my results. So I didn't turn pro until I was seventy in the world. So I actually did.

00:25:15
Speaker 1: Not want to play.

00:25:16
Speaker 2: Why did you want to go to college?

00:25:18
Speaker 1: I wanted to go to college.

00:25:20
Speaker 2: This was a great lesson for people though gone young to hear.

00:25:23
Speaker 6: Yes, I mean, I don't regret any of the decisions, you know. So I actually I was committed to Stanford and sure in that off like that gap year, I got a wild card when I was sixteen years old, I got a wild card into the qualifying of the US Open. I qualified. I played every match, three set match. I was just again like the girl you saw me, just like fighting, super.

00:25:49
Speaker 1: Hard, you know, grinding. At that time.

00:25:52
Speaker 6: My dad had changed my backhand and my back end over the course of my career has been very solid.

00:25:57
Speaker 1: But I have no backhand. I only sliced and loved it. That's it.

00:26:01
Speaker 6: And I sliced a love and tried to run around every for him and if I could, and just fought as hard as.

00:26:06
Speaker 4: I could, battled through qualities. In your first slam, made it to the main draw.

00:26:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I won the first round against Clara.

00:26:13
Speaker 6: At the time she was Kukolova, and then I think she became exact with Love and then she back to Cuocoloba. Clara is actually also very instrumental in my career because at the time there were quality points and yeah, yeah, I went from like eight hundred to or let's say nine hundred to two fifty, which was a huge jump, you know, in one tournament. And prior to that moment, I mean I was committed to Stanford. I was like, for sure, I'm going to college. You know, I couldn't get into big events. I was just playing some futures. And then because my ranking was good, then I started getting into like challenger events. So I finished that year playing challenger events ranked about one sixty, and then by Indian Wells. By March, I was top hundred and then by June I was seventy. So I remember having a call with my parents. So actually I was coached for my dad and at French Open, so I was I was doing well with him, but I also really hated playing because my dad was really hard on me and my sisters. But he decided when I was about thirteen that I was going to be the one that was gonna make it, so he focused all of his attention on me, which also I recognized later that was very hard on my sisters. Could he basically like neglected them.

00:27:34
Speaker 1: But it was very hard on me.

00:27:37
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was not easy for everybody, and you know, he puts so much pressure on me that I had to win.

00:27:43
Speaker 1: It was basically like I couldn't control if I want or not. But as a junior was it was.

00:27:48
Speaker 6: Okay because you know, fighting hard, you know, grinding it out, putting balls on the court.

00:27:54
Speaker 2: Makes a big difference for juniors.

00:27:56
Speaker 6: But as a pro, you know, got to be more gutsy, got to be able to rise up to the occasion.

00:28:02
Speaker 1: And I think that that hurt me, like.

00:28:04
Speaker 6: Having all of that pressure instilled in me and that fear instilled in me as a kid, And one of the reasons why I did do better in doubles because he didn't care about doubles. I mean, obviously my game kind of suited doubles a bit better. But yeah, so at French Ope and I remember telling him, I'm sure this also had a lot to do with the reason why I wanted to go to colleges, because I just was want to playing.

00:28:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, and at French Ope and I basically said to him, like, I can't work with you anymore.

00:28:30
Speaker 6: I got to the point where it's like I quit tennis or I quit you. And it was a huge decision for me because I was under the most of it was hard, but I was like, at my with end, I just could not do it anymore. And that's actually when I started working with Ray because at Wimbledon he was floating with some of the US girls and kindly because Ray was always that type of person, that's you know.

00:28:51
Speaker 1: He always invited.

00:28:52
Speaker 6: He knew me because you know, even if he was working with some other players, he said, oh, wanna come and join us. He was so like trying to give me opportunities to play with better players.

00:29:01
Speaker 5: You know.

00:29:01
Speaker 6: That's how I got to play with you, and to practice with them to see what, you know, pushed me to my limits. And so anyway, I started working with Ray at Wimbledon, but I called my parents in London and said, Okay, I've made my decision, because that was my deadline.

00:29:15
Speaker 1: I said, I've made my decision.

00:29:16
Speaker 6: I'm going to go to college and my parents said nope. And it was actually my mom who was the one because she my mom was smart, like she knew how to, she knew how to. My dad in a way because he was so tough in a way was helpful because I was able to break away because it was so tough.

00:29:34
Speaker 1: My mom was like, no, Banya, you know you were going to regret this, like how well you're doing.

00:29:39
Speaker 6: And I was seventeen and it was it was hard for me. I still lived with my parents and had all the teenage angst and insecurities and uncertainties, and so they basically convinced me not to go to college and to turn pro. So I turned pro at Wimbledon, and I did well with Ray and for a out, I would say, like up until the next year of February, we finished. And there was also an issue with my dad, like he got an confrontation with my dad.

00:30:10
Speaker 1: He thought my dad was coaching.

00:30:12
Speaker 6: Him from behind, and I was in the middle of it and was It was hard for me as well. You know back in the day, you remember I was just like kind of very quiet, and you know, I obviously I had a lot of opinions inside, but I was taught don't say anything, just obey, and so.

00:30:27
Speaker 1: It was really that was hard for me.

00:30:29
Speaker 6: Losing Ray was hard, and years later I talked to him about it and I said, hey, you know, because he always thought my dad was coaching with me from behind, and I think my dad kind of.

00:30:39
Speaker 1: Kind of was trying to still maintain control. You know, he was trying to get some other coaches to like video my matches.

00:30:47
Speaker 6: Oh of course, yeah, I mean, actually, my dad he said to me at one point. You know, I think that overall he had the best intentions for me, although because I worked with him for so long, I can very clearly say that intentions are not everything.

00:31:02
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not enough.

00:31:05
Speaker 6: But you know, he got to the point where he was his life are so intertwined with mine, and you know, his success was my success. That he said to me, I'd rather you fail without me than to work with someone else.

00:31:26
Speaker 3: I can tell you there's a player on to it to this day that has a father exactly the same way.

00:31:32
Speaker 4: I think I can.

00:31:33
Speaker 2: It's very short list.

00:31:35
Speaker 1: Well, I mean people are I mean I could probably guess, but for and he actually admitted it. My dad is anything, he's honest.

00:31:45
Speaker 3: Well two journalists as well, So I mean there are people just like that fathers, and I think this is.

00:31:53
Speaker 2: A pretty common story.

00:31:54
Speaker 5: What is uncommon for me hearing you say it, and this is I mean, I was never talented enough to go beyond getting a scholarship fifty one, but for which is great.

00:32:02
Speaker 4: It's okay.

00:32:04
Speaker 2: But but what I really really.

00:32:06
Speaker 5: Turned me off from junior tennis was just the idea that kids were getting basically like emotionally manipulated, if not worse traumatized.

00:32:15
Speaker 1: Then they would turn in a lot of therapass I.

00:32:20
Speaker 5: That that's actually what I'm getting to But but it made competing against these kids so hard because they were taught to win it all costs, which in turn made them monsters. Sometimes not all the time, but they're playing from a place of fear, they're playing from a place of anger.

00:32:33
Speaker 4: They know they're going to get screamed, punished.

00:32:36
Speaker 2: Dad with a spreadsheet, And it's mostly dad.

00:32:37
Speaker 5: I don't want to say it's never moms, but it's mostly a dad with a clipboard being like, you missed sixty percent of the second circuit turns in the net.

00:32:44
Speaker 2: We're gonna practice that for five hours until.

00:32:45
Speaker 5: Your feet bleed, and it's like, this is horrible and I don't want any part of this. You came out the other side. I'm assuming you still have a relationship with your parents.

00:32:55
Speaker 1: I do, but the therapy it's well.

00:33:00
Speaker 6: But actually, therapy has actually really helped me in the last few years.

00:33:05
Speaker 1: Because you know, I it took a while to kind of come It took a while to.

00:33:13
Speaker 6: Even be able to talk to my parents or to address the issue because for a while I just couldn't.

00:33:18
Speaker 1: I really actually I don't.

00:33:21
Speaker 6: Remember much from like thirteen or twelve to thirteen to nineteen when I was working with my dad, and I think that was just my defense mechanism, where like I was not enjoying a lot of it, which is now I'm trying to get those memories back because.

00:33:34
Speaker 1: I want to remember that it was part of my life. Yeah, exactly, but.

00:33:40
Speaker 6: It's very hard because I think it's just, you know, how I coped with it in the past. So that's how therapy has kind of helped me more recently because it took Yeah.

00:33:49
Speaker 1: I mean it.

00:33:50
Speaker 6: Yeah, you can't open it all at once. You got to just open a little bit, let some out and then deal with that, you know.

00:33:55
Speaker 2: But I mean, look, I.

00:33:57
Speaker 6: Know my parents had the best interest for me, luckily. I mean, look, I know there's a lot of players that have had it worse. I'm not saying that it's justifying or anything, and but we're just you know, we are just kids.

00:34:09
Speaker 1: And you are very impacted by your parents.

00:34:13
Speaker 6: You say, like their their outlook, but they're uh the way that they taught you, Like their rooted behaviors become.

00:34:21
Speaker 1: Your rooted behaviors, you know.

00:34:23
Speaker 6: So anyways, yeah, my dad, he just got too into it. And as I said, luckily, he was so hard on me that I broke free and we talk about a relationship with them.

00:34:34
Speaker 1: So I didn't talk to him for two years, and then I really had to say to myself, do I want to have a relationship with him? And you know, there was a period I didn't talk to my mom for a year.

00:34:46
Speaker 6: Like we're all very stubborn people, if anything. So my family is very strong willed. And one thing I would say that was I was lucky because they never belittled me, like my dad would be.

00:34:59
Speaker 1: We to be very upset if I lost.

00:35:01
Speaker 6: But then he never said, you know, you're worthless your ship, like because I feel like that was the worst thing that you can do to somebody, because you're like, I still my mom, Like both of them would say, you know, my dad would say my daughter is gonna be number one in the world, which is stressful in itself, but high causation.

00:35:18
Speaker 5: You know.

00:35:18
Speaker 6: My mom was like, you're a fighter, You're tough. Like it was also frustrating to also hear that because I was like, man, I got to fight through everything, you know, like when can I just relax?

00:35:27
Speaker 1: And no, you can't. So in that part, I was.

00:35:30
Speaker 6: A little bit lucky that at least they gave me that part of the self confidence.

00:35:34
Speaker 2: They gave you self esteem in a way.

00:35:37
Speaker 1: But it was too hard.

00:35:38
Speaker 4: But it was it was too the expectation was way too much.

00:35:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you get this tennis parent situation, it's it's the if you're going to look at anyone, look at that line from Venus saying it was about the process.

00:35:51
Speaker 1: It wasn't about the result long term, you know, and it was.

00:35:54
Speaker 2: About the long term of.

00:35:57
Speaker 3: Making a tennis player at their best, not worrying about the wins and losses, and if they lost, it was like, all right, what are we going to get better at it?

00:36:04
Speaker 5: So you said something so interesting to me, which is I had never really thought about that much before, but like junior tennis a lot of times is uh, it's less about risk taking and more about grinding out wins. And I think that's a big reason that. And I is like somebody who likes to serve and valley with a high error rate, but like, oh no, coaches were like, what are you doing, Like get your you're five to five, Like you shouldn't be serving involving ever, And I was like, but that's how I like to play. Yeah, But I do think like you're having to embrace your courage to be a pro athlete, both in terms of the game that you're describing, hitting harder, taking bigger risks, but also like it takes a lot of courage to do what you just described, which is like confronting a situation that you wanted to get out of, especially as a kid, and then processing it and kind of coming out the other side of it. And I can't help but think that's probably set you up very well for the rest of your life.

00:36:55
Speaker 6: I think so now, I think so, you know, even making that decision to turn pro, that wasn't really myice. So I struggled for a few years because of that decision because I didn't want to.

00:37:06
Speaker 1: I didn't want to turn pro.

00:37:08
Speaker 2: I have to party with your mom. Though, I think it was the right decision. In the back, it's the right decision.

00:37:14
Speaker 1: Well, looking it was it was not the you know, it wasn't the ranking. It was it was everything else. I mean, looking back, obviously, I am.

00:37:23
Speaker 6: I am so happy that I ended up playing, and I went through a very difficult period for the first few years, especially after I left Ray or we parted. You know, I now it's kind of stuck because I was under my dad's thumb for so long, and then I had Ray, who was kind of this breath of fresh air who really helped me develop my game, and now he was gone, and now I didn't know where to go because I was still living with my parents, especially, you know, I was I was raised to you know, I was very sheltered.

00:37:54
Speaker 1: My parents, you know, were quite controlling of my.

00:37:56
Speaker 6: Decisions, and so I was kind of I was, you know, I was very lost.

00:38:00
Speaker 1: I didn't know.

00:38:01
Speaker 6: I was like, now I'm playing, and I don't want to be playing. I don't know what to do with my game. I don't know how to find a coach. I obviously don't want to go back to my dad, but I'm still living with my parents, not talking to my dad while I'm at home, which is was weird.

00:38:15
Speaker 1: And and my game suffered.

00:38:17
Speaker 6: So I had to become I had to basically become like a professional when I had never been one before because I was always just what to do. Yeah, so it was a And also all of my friends were in college and having this life that I thought that I wanted, you know, So that was it took me two years.

00:38:39
Speaker 1: Basically bottom with the ropes.

00:38:43
Speaker 6: Well also, you know, I reached out at that same time to like Usta and and now ust and I are fine and I'm actually on the board now, but you know, hopefully being able to utilize my experiences and other players' experiences to help. But you know, at that time, they were like, Nope, we can't help you. We can't help you. They gave me kind of unrealistic conditions, like you have to train with us, for twenty weeks of the year, which is impossible.

00:39:11
Speaker 1: You know, I was home maybe five weeks of the.

00:39:13
Speaker 6: Year, and if you are working with us, then we'll just bounce you around to whoever's there. And it was basically like a slap in the face, like we have to offer you something, but we know you can't accept this offer. So yeah, I was really you know, at the lowest and then I saw one of a coach. So one of the things that my dad did really great is there's a lot of great former players and coaches in the.

00:39:39
Speaker 1: So Cal area. The goal was to learn as much as he could.

00:39:44
Speaker 6: Tarique Manibelz is a French Algerian coach who took Roddick from juniors to number two in the world. I felt like he understood me as a player. He was a player himself, not saying that because he was a player he was, you know, epathetic, but it helps.

00:39:58
Speaker 1: You know, you understand what players go through. And because my dad was so hard on me, he was the first person to be like.

00:40:03
Speaker 2: Okay, today we're going to work hard.

00:40:05
Speaker 1: Today.

00:40:05
Speaker 6: You look like you're a little down, We're going to back off a little bit. Let's do something different, which is.

00:40:10
Speaker 2: Very important for coaches done, and not many.

00:40:12
Speaker 1: I mean, not all coaches do that, you know, not all coaches.

00:40:15
Speaker 2: I think it's important for coaches to know when to push and no one to pull back.

00:40:21
Speaker 1: And yes, but not many do.

00:40:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then that's a bad choice from them because you've got to know the person, right. So as a coach, you have to know is my player a self motivator?

00:40:32
Speaker 2: Is my player a hard worker?

00:40:34
Speaker 3: If you know those things and they are looking tired, or they're a little bit sore, they're a little bit there.

00:40:38
Speaker 2: That's when you have to pull back.

00:40:39
Speaker 3: If you know your players a little bit of a bullshitter, yeah, and a little bit of a whiner, you've got.

00:40:43
Speaker 2: To constantly push them.

00:40:44
Speaker 3: So you've got to know your player, and you, for example, would have been somebody if you look tired to pull back. Yeah, right, that's what you're in. Any coach out there that listens to this pod, you have to know that about your individual player.

00:40:55
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, and I would say that in general, most of the coaches that I worked with did not have that, you know, sense of to be flexible to their players capabilities of that day.

00:41:08
Speaker 3: But do you think that that's also important because that's a trust value that when you are he's not.

00:41:12
Speaker 2: Sort of pushing yourself and they push you.

00:41:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course, you know.

00:41:16
Speaker 2: It's for the best.

00:41:17
Speaker 3: Whereas if they can pull back, you know, okay, sometimes you need to pull back.

00:41:20
Speaker 2: I mean I deal with that all the time with some players that I work with.

00:41:23
Speaker 1: It it is like a breach of trust.

00:41:25
Speaker 6: You know, if they don't if they're doing something that you don't feel comfortable with, and then it ends, it will end up backfiring. You know, you lose motivation and you get hurt. So you know, you do lose that confidence in the relationship. And if you don't have confidence, one hundred percent confidence in your coach, you cannot be.

00:41:40
Speaker 1: Working with them, you know, because it's as you know, it's it's so hard.

00:41:44
Speaker 6: But what I was with Ray, you know, Ray was very chill, but he was very confident that I must do it, you know, a certain way. So I remember him saying, you're going to do this. I don't care if you double fault a thousand times. I remember I played a series of three events in Asia and we worked really hard on my SERF. We worked really hard on my KICKSERF, which after I stopped with Ray.

00:42:05
Speaker 1: I went just back to the slicer so.

00:42:09
Speaker 6: And the first tournament, I remember I had like on average because we looked at you know, how many app how many double faults and versus aces have you do you have on average, you know, first cerve percentage and stuff like that, And I started at like twelve to fifteen double faults in that first tournament on average. And I remember losing the second round. He said, I don't care. You're gonna keep it, keep going. You're gonna keep going for that serve. That kicks are you gonna go for it and go for it because he was also like, not just gopher it and aim big targets. He was like, no, that kicks are passed to hit in the super wide corner and really curve off and get that person off the court. Remember he was like, it's got to pass the alley, it's got to go into the fence, it's got to touch that side fence. And I was like, oh, it's not just putting that serve in.

00:42:51
Speaker 8: Like heavy, but it's you know, I mean again, like you're saying stuff that is so important for people to hear, right as especially as a seventeen old which is when you started working with him.

00:43:02
Speaker 2: That's the time to change it.

00:43:04
Speaker 3: Like I look at some of these some of the girls that are playing on tour now, and I said on Twitter the other day, You're only as good as your second serve. And I see so many players lose matches because they just have a terrible second serve and they have a big first serve and then they have a very very predictable second serve. And what's the most important what is the best shot most of the time on the WTA Tour, it's women's returns of serve. So if you're not getting your player off the court, there's a reason why Ashbardy, who is by the way, only like five seven on a good day, okay, can hit an unbelievable kick serf and hit a second serve because she's worked on it and worked on it. I mean some of the great young you know, Justine and Attlok, there are players that are five five, five six.

00:43:46
Speaker 2: That have great second serves.

00:43:48
Speaker 5: Well, the lesson I'm taking from that is it's applicability to the current tour, although obviously that's there's very real examples of that, but also just more like how having somebody believe in you and give you the the yeah, no, totally repeded affirmation, Like I know you're going to double fault a lot, and I don't care.

00:44:06
Speaker 4: Because we're doing going to click and we're doing the right thing.

00:44:08
Speaker 2: Like I played a lot of doubles.

00:44:09
Speaker 5: It was my better event, and I remember telling a lot of the singles players I would play with, keep crossing.

00:44:15
Speaker 2: I don't care if you missed, just go for it.

00:44:16
Speaker 5: Go for a go for because I want to impress upon our opponents that we're always going to be looking across and even if you miss it, like and eventually they get over it and like they start making it. But it's the same concept, which is like process over results. Yes, the process kicks in, you will have the results, but you can't without the process. And it's such a that's applicable to literally everything in line.

00:44:36
Speaker 6: Yeah, I still you know the raised directives that he gave me, like return down the line right away, you know, serve and volley early or at thirty forty.

00:44:47
Speaker 1: You know, I still remember a lot of his directives.

00:44:49
Speaker 6: And again I if it wasn't for him, I would definitely not have had this success I had.

00:44:55
Speaker 1: In general, I had two great coaches that really believed in me.

00:44:58
Speaker 6: But yes, So that first Slam, it was I played with Slava Yar slavash Fedeva. We had only played two tournaments together because I was actually set that year with Annelena Groenefeldt and Anna got hurt at Indian Wells. She had a stress factor in her foot and she said to me, Okay, I'm gonna be out for a couple of months. And then so I sat with Manka Nikilesk, who's a good friend of mine. I mean, they're all good friends of mine at.

00:45:26
Speaker 1: French Open and then at Wimbledon.

00:45:28
Speaker 6: You know, girls start finding partners early and I and Ann was like, well, I hope you can wait for me, but I'm not really sure. I'm not one hundred percent, I said, you know, and I really got to find somebody. It's Wimbledon, you know, like getting late.

00:45:42
Speaker 1: And Slava and I.

00:45:43
Speaker 6: Had I knew Slava from juniors and we kind of bonded. We weren't like close friends or anything, but we bonded. And her English wasn't great, especially in juniors, you know, but we bonded because we both had fathers that were there and very tough on us and you know, there's that connection. You just understood each other because we understood suffering of overbearing father.

00:46:05
Speaker 1: And then on tour, I remember asking her.

00:46:08
Speaker 6: There was a couple of players that I wanted to play with that like you you know, you saw potential and certain partners. And then for me, you know, she was somebody that I saw potential and that I think we can match well together. And then this opportunity came up because I needed a partner for Wimbledon. So we just set for those three events, sorry, the two warm ups, which was Birmingham, Her togn Bosh, and then Wimbledon. So in Birmingham we lost in the semis, we lost to Bethany and Liesel, and we got handily beaten like four and one. Her Tokenbash, we lost in the finals to Rodia Nova and somebody. So, I mean, to men, is like the caliber of players that we were losing to, and.

00:46:51
Speaker 1: Plus we handily got beaten by Bethany and Lisel.

00:46:53
Speaker 6: I was like, you know, we need to well, I mean, I had never obviously won a Slam before, but you know, we weren't like, oh my god, we're gonna go win Wimbledon.

00:47:03
Speaker 1: However, we did joke that Okay. Now we played semis finals, okay, and we should win the next one. Ha ha, yeah, of course, you know.

00:47:10
Speaker 6: Jokingly, Slava did have her rackets stolen her tognbosh like at train stations, so she had to buy. This is how Slava works best anyways, is whatever whatever, Yeah.

00:47:22
Speaker 1: To be super relaxed. She plays the best she can be the best player in the world, Slava.

00:47:27
Speaker 6: I always felt like if she if it weren't for injuries and a bit of nerves, I always felt like she was top ten totally. Yeah, but she did struggle with a lot of injuries, and so yeah, she was using two generic rackets that she bought at a shop. I was on antibiotics because I had sinisitis. I had bronchitis early in the year. Was I was on like my fourth course of antibiotics by that time, like of that year. So just feeling really sorry for myself and not really being able to.

00:47:57
Speaker 2: Bad news bears.

00:47:58
Speaker 3: You're not, yeah, people to stand you don't just go buy a generic generic racket.

00:48:02
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, we get a rackets, can't customize.

00:48:06
Speaker 3: Customized and waited and strong and slav with the target.

00:48:11
Speaker 1: She's just so talented she's so talented that you know she could do it for me.

00:48:15
Speaker 6: I'm like, oh my gosh, my racket in the match drops like one pounds and I freak out.

00:48:20
Speaker 1: You know, I need a new racket.

00:48:21
Speaker 6: But then also I only played with one racket, the racket that I won with. I just kept that racket the whole time.

00:48:26
Speaker 1: So God forbid.

00:48:27
Speaker 2: The only person that wouldn't break a string though.

00:48:32
Speaker 6: I'm on antibiotics, Slava is you know, using generic rackets. It's the World Cup, so obviously we have like low expectations. We're just going to go out and have fun because we're you know, circumstances.

00:48:45
Speaker 1: And it was a World Cup. So we go every night to the pub and watch the World Cup.

00:48:50
Speaker 6: You know, the first two matches we thought, okay, you know, like our caliber at that point of who we've beaten probably.

00:48:55
Speaker 1: Like one or two matches.

00:48:56
Speaker 6: So however, we played Monicanicolescoans to harp here in the second round. It was a three and a half hour match. I mean it was tough, like we somehow got through that match.

00:49:05
Speaker 1: And then in the third.

00:49:06
Speaker 6: Round we played Sam and Native Drova and we're like, we're gonna lose, like I'd never beaten, not yet before in doubles, And for some reason we get on the court and Naughty's in a bad mood.

00:49:18
Speaker 1: But like really bad mood.

00:49:20
Speaker 6: Okay, I mean, I know she could be in a bad mood, but like really bad mood, like she threw her racket in a warm up and up through her racket.

00:49:27
Speaker 3: Another good thing to tell your kids, don't show any emotion that's negative because they can lose you a match.

00:49:34
Speaker 2: Finals are the French Open anyway?

00:49:35
Speaker 4: Go on?

00:49:37
Speaker 6: Yeah, So I was like, oh, so maybe we've got a shot because something's bothering her.

00:49:43
Speaker 1: I don't and then you know, Sam is Sam doesn't show a lot of them.

00:49:46
Speaker 6: She doesn't, but if her partner is like super stressed out, it manifest and sank because she's totally a little bit you know, more tight anyways, So obviously then Naddy can be very intense and if she's angry, then you're kind of scared. And so then Sam started not playing great. So they just played a really horrible match and then we won, like I think, kind of straight sets fairly easily, and I'm like, oh my god, you know, and.

00:50:08
Speaker 1: Then we played I think in the quarters. That's the quarters.

00:50:13
Speaker 6: Now we played Sorbotnik Peshke, who were the number one team in the world at the time, and again we're like, eh, no chance.

00:50:22
Speaker 1: They're super solid. I remember. So we lost the.

00:50:28
Speaker 6: First set, I mean with the break, but solidly losing the first set. We're down a break in a second, I think we're down a set. In like five two or five three, we're down.

00:50:36
Speaker 1: A break, and I'm like, you know, in my head, Kenny Curst, so literally in my head, I'm like, fuck it, I'm gonna hit every return as hard as I can, literally hurt every turn. And I was in the zone.

00:50:51
Speaker 6: The Semis, we play Bethany and Lizel and we had just lost in them two weeks before.

00:50:59
Speaker 1: They're handily, like they just beat us because they were better. And but now you know, we've had a few.

00:51:05
Speaker 6: Matches and like confidence and we're playing we've had more matches together, we know each other's games better.

00:51:11
Speaker 1: And so Liezel, you know, was notorious in like trying to get into your head.

00:51:22
Speaker 6: And and I told Slava before the match, I'm like, we're not letting her get into.

00:51:27
Speaker 1: Our head because you know we're at there, We're going to.

00:51:30
Speaker 6: Go guns blazing like and no matter what happens, we're gonna go ko back down.

00:51:34
Speaker 1: We're not going to back down.

00:51:35
Speaker 5: I just want to note for the listenership right now, Renee has gone very quiet.

00:51:42
Speaker 4: Well.

00:51:42
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, she was an incredibly tough competitor obviously and very successful, but she was also you know, she also that's.

00:51:54
Speaker 6: One of her tactics was, you know, to be fights, don't going to get into your head. And so I was like, we're not having you, We're not gonna And it was also like a little bit of intimidation, and I was like, we're not gonna, We're not gonna be in.

00:52:07
Speaker 1: We're not backing down.

00:52:07
Speaker 6: So we went guns are blazing and like just wailed on every single ball, did not back down physically.

00:52:14
Speaker 1: And mentally, and we won that match like two and two.

00:52:18
Speaker 6: Wow. I remember Slava going up and like they tried to lob her and slaves.

00:52:25
Speaker 1: Like eight foot ten and you know, so.

00:52:27
Speaker 6: Athletic running backwards. The lab would have landed like two feet in front of the baseline.

00:52:32
Speaker 1: But she's there, you know, jumping up in the air like six feet and hitting the ball as hard as she can and screaming at me, come on, and yeah, I mean it was it was intense, but that's what we had to do, you know, like to play the best players, you have to go.

00:52:48
Speaker 6: And you have to take it to them. You have to take it to them. And then in the finals. So in the other semis Serena and Venus were in the draw and or maybe they're in the quarters and lost, but they lost to Vesnina and.

00:53:01
Speaker 1: Its Vannareva, who was Vonareva.

00:53:05
Speaker 2: I never lost when I was bloody in the draw.

00:53:08
Speaker 6: I mean, it was very unusual because we thought for sure, you know, yeah, it was like the first time losing ever a final or something like that. And you know, Lena and we're incredibly talented players as well, so obviously like they took it to you. Yeah, but yeah, I mean we played them in the finals, but they had never.

00:53:29
Speaker 1: Been in the finals before, yes, and.

00:53:31
Speaker 2: So we all it's all four of you.

00:53:34
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I'm positive if we played you or you know, vinoson Serena who had already been in the finals, like, it would have been different, you know, because it's it makes a difference. There's no stress like Grand Slam final stress.

00:53:47
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

00:53:47
Speaker 6: You know, there was the only time I've ever dreamed about tennis was before the three times I played a Grand Slam final.

00:53:55
Speaker 1: And sadly for me, all of those dreams ended with me winning.

00:53:58
Speaker 6: And then I wake up and I'm like, shit, I haven't played yet.

00:54:02
Speaker 1: So it's horrible. But it's horrible because it's so well.

00:54:04
Speaker 4: The goodness is you won two of them.

00:54:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I did lose one of them.

00:54:09
Speaker 1: That was That was heartbreaking. Back who had a three eight bad? That's true, that's true. Yeah, that one you lost, that was I did.

00:54:17
Speaker 2: I'm going to blame that on your partner. As much as I love, that was her fault.

00:54:23
Speaker 6: Well, you know, I was also nervous and I did not like support her as much as I needed to.

00:54:31
Speaker 1: Let's say, you know that I needed to step it up and I couldn't do it as much as I needed.

00:54:35
Speaker 4: That is a very kind, diplomatic and empathetic thing to.

00:54:39
Speaker 3: Say, But it is true because you have to understand where you're like.

00:54:44
Speaker 2: It's the same as me saying about coaches need to understand their players.

00:54:48
Speaker 3: If the ones that are motivated self motivated, the ones that maybe overdo it, maybe over push themselves, when to pull them back, lazy when to push them.

00:54:56
Speaker 2: And you also have to know your partner.

00:54:58
Speaker 3: And one of the conversations I always had with my partners before Grandsun finals was how are you feeling today? You know, and be honest, and I would. I would say I'm feeling really nervous today. And there were some days was like I feel really good today, Like I'm really fine. You're always nervous, but there's a level of nerves, you know, and I think it's super important for partners to say I actually feel really good.

00:55:18
Speaker 2: I mean, there were times where Lisa I would say I'm super nervous.

00:55:20
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god, I feel good, you know, or she'd say I feel good, I'm super nervous. And then there was one time when we were like, I'm super nervous here, I'm super nervous.

00:55:28
Speaker 2: It's like, what are we going to do?

00:55:29
Speaker 1: I mean, but if you're like, wegether, you know, so then you kind of just say, look, let's just start strong or try your best, or you know, at least you know.

00:55:39
Speaker 3: What would you have changed though in that time break in that match, I tried everything that's talking to her.

00:55:45
Speaker 2: What would you have changed to be, as you said, more supportive?

00:55:47
Speaker 6: Tried everything, So that was like the only thing I could have done, I felt.

00:55:55
Speaker 1: Because I tried. I tried. I tried being tough.

00:55:58
Speaker 6: You know, for me, I was always the one that was like the supporter on the court, you know, like trying to lift her up, trying to lift her up, and but you know, obviously trying to deal with my own nerves and try to prop her up. And I always start with like I'm always I feel like I want to be very positive on the court because I play my best when in her relaxed and I'm positive, and that's always my go to. So it started with that, you know, don't worry about it, go for it, go for it. You know, like I still remember the kick first serve in the middle of the court and to Lisa's backhand, and I'm like, what do I like, I want, I need to go. But then she's also not She's also a great player that she you know, if she sees me going, then she has enough time.

00:56:40
Speaker 1: To so you know, then I tried the tough love.

00:56:43
Speaker 6: Then I tried, you know, like okay, let's just like do some breathing exercises or then I you know, try to like Okay, let's pump ourselves up, you know, like slap yourself in the in the thigh and scream come on.

00:56:54
Speaker 1: You know.

00:56:54
Speaker 6: I tried everything that I could think of at that time. Yeah, and I'm like, nothing worked. So that's why I remember feeling in the third set of that match, I felt like we lost six out. But then I talked to Lisa like three years later and she goes, No, No, seven six, and I'm like, oh, I felt like it was a wash out because I just knew that you could only get far chances, and we actually had two. We were up, she was serving, she was serving up a set and a break, and then in we had a little mini break in the tiebreak, and then I just was like, if we get to that point again, if she can't step it up, or like, if we can't step it up together, then we're going to lose.

00:57:37
Speaker 2: And so I just felt like it was over.

00:57:39
Speaker 6: When it was, you know, after the second set, I was like, it's over, even though it.

00:57:42
Speaker 1: Was seven six then third, So but yeah, I mean.

00:57:48
Speaker 6: I think as well that looking back, I mean I was also judging her on my expectations, like you gotta keep trying things. You got to you know, and I also didn't realize Slava is a player that one of the like the way that.

00:58:03
Speaker 1: Stress manifests to her.

00:58:05
Speaker 6: And so now recognizing this in some players is that it looks like she's not trying, and I didn't realize that that's just a result of her stress and.

00:58:13
Speaker 1: It's not her not trying, And I'm like, yeah, and she just shuts down.

00:58:17
Speaker 6: And and for me, I don't work with like, I don't understand that because I'm just like, go, go, go, go go change it, try and try and try and try. Like for me, yes, I mean I love, yeah, I love playing with Lisa. I mean we were on the same wavelength. The only thing is that our games were not as obviously like fitting as yours did with hers and mine did with yours. But so yeah, I mean, you know, I just I think, looking back now, I don't know if only I could have been a bit more understanding or but I mean, at the moment, like I tried everything that I could think of, and the only thing that I could have done that I don't regret it because I've also had my own stresses.

00:58:59
Speaker 1: But I needed to step up more. I needed to be I needed to take more charge of the points. But I was also like I tried, but I didn't do it.

00:59:12
Speaker 2: It was going zone.

00:59:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I tried to go to my comfort zone, but I.

00:59:16
Speaker 6: Needed it wasn't enough, you know, I needed to do more. Well, I needed to like figure out a way too. Because also like Slava was going into patterns. When she gets nervous, she goes into patterns. And I should have, if anything, I should have said, no, let's break out it like we must.

00:59:33
Speaker 3: Because great teams also know someone's pah exactly so they can they can exploit that, yeah.

00:59:39
Speaker 6: Exactly, so they knew exactly what was coming under pressure and again no pressure like Grand Slam final pressure.

00:59:43
Speaker 5: So speaking about somebody who's aggressive, tell me, uh what it was like to face off against Justin gamil'stad, who who only won one Grand Slam on the back of Venis Williams, but will let never let anybody forget.

00:59:57
Speaker 2: About the fact that he won a Grand Slam championship.

00:59:59
Speaker 1: Oh, because he always one of the fans.

01:00:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, he always struck me as.

01:00:03
Speaker 4: One of the more Mania call players out there on the Niacle.

01:00:07
Speaker 6: Well, the I'll just say that the first time I met him, so he was coached by Elliott Tilcher, who actually coached my brother. And I'm good friends with Elliott and it's always been really nice to me. And I was sixteen, I got a wild card into mixed.

01:00:26
Speaker 1: Playing with Vince Spadia. Yeah, at the.

01:00:30
Speaker 6: Vince Spadia, who Anaphradia, and he had a hat with his logo on and signing his book on the side of the court.

01:00:37
Speaker 1: And I'm kind of I was sixteen.

01:00:39
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't really know what's going on.

01:00:40
Speaker 6: You know, we're playing the semi finals. It's my first time playing mixed. It's my first time being in a semis We're playing against Megan Shaughnessy, great American player again, and she's playing with Justin and we're in the second set and Justin gets a ball. I think, like, you know, Vince, I don't flubbed a ball. And it was two feet in front of the net, a high ball and Justin I'm at the net. Justin's at the net. He lets a ball bounce and I see murder in his eyes. And I've never run off the court in my professional career except this one time. I literally I saw he was gonna kill me, and I ran off the court.

01:01:24
Speaker 1: And he missed it trying to hit me, but.

01:01:26
Speaker 4: He would rather miss by hitting trying.

01:01:28
Speaker 6: He was trying to hit me so bad that he missed it. And I was again, I was so young. I was just shocked, like everything. I was sixteen, like one hundred pounds.

01:01:38
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.

01:01:40
Speaker 6: Not anyways, that doesn't mean anything in terms of like why are you trying to hit somebody?

01:01:46
Speaker 1: You know?

01:01:46
Speaker 6: And I was just so confused. Everything was so new, and I was like, what is wrong with him? And I remember Elliott because I was finding Elliott asked him, apparently asked him like, justin why did you do that? Like she's sixteen, and he goes, I just hate been so much.

01:02:03
Speaker 1: And it was like then I'm like, then hit Vince.

01:02:06
Speaker 6: Yeah, like take that ball and miss it, trying to hit Vince in the face, not trying to hit me in the face.

01:02:12
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.

01:02:12
Speaker 1: So I never got on that. Well, it was an a memorable moment.

01:02:16
Speaker 5: I brought it up just in the context of like therapy being good for everyone.

01:02:19
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it seems like that.

01:02:21
Speaker 5: When you told me that story, I thought, ah, you know, he never apologized.

01:02:25
Speaker 4: Oh that's such a shock.

01:02:26
Speaker 6: So not that I expect an apology based upon the experience itself, you know, but yeah, I mean it was not one of my better.

01:02:41
Speaker 1: Experiences with other players.

01:02:43
Speaker 5: Well, listen, you you stuck it out, you had a great fifteen year career, Grand slams to to take away, and you've got all these life lessons. To me, what's so interesting talking to you is just how much you've processed all of this.

01:02:57
Speaker 4: You know now that I know a few of these overthinkers.

01:03:01
Speaker 5: And it might be good for tennis or it might not be, But I definitely think it's good for life because I think a lot of people have a hard time decompressing and shifting into their next thing.

01:03:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, because there used to being one mode and you've been in your head a long time.

01:03:13
Speaker 5: But on the other hand, now that you're out in the you're let loose in the world. Yeah, what does that mean that you're gonna look to do? Obviously your work with serving up Hope, obviously you're working on the USTA board. Yeah, you know, I'm just curious, what are you about now and how does the next couple of years look for you?

01:03:29
Speaker 6: So for me, I want and in general I wanted and I want to find something that's fulfilling.

01:03:35
Speaker 1: You know, Tennis is so mentally engaging.

01:03:40
Speaker 6: Probably I don't want to find something as physically engaging as it, but mentally, you know, you're in the moment, You forget time, you just do what you gotta do. And that's what I wanted to find after tennis and I it. You know, in the process of realizing that I was going down the path of retirement, I was also trying to find something that was fulfilling.

01:03:58
Speaker 1: And it wasn't easy. I didn't really know for a little while what I wanted to do.

01:04:04
Speaker 6: I also work part time for WT Charities, so the charitable arm of WTA.

01:04:09
Speaker 1: It is separate from WTA, so I feel like I.

01:04:12
Speaker 6: Can make a difference there, and the goal is obviously to make a difference there, and I love the fact, like right, so I got involved.

01:04:19
Speaker 1: I got to know the woman who heads WT Charities.

01:04:23
Speaker 6: Her name's Anne Austin, and she's yeah, she's super sweet. And I actually did a master's in nonprofit management and we were classmates and we did some projects together.

01:04:32
Speaker 1: So that's how I kind of got to know her.

01:04:34
Speaker 6: And then I I actually reached out to her and I realized had an epiphany. I was like, Oh, I would love to work for you or with you, you know, getting players engaged. Basically how much the charitable side has helped me as a person, you know, not just from the mental.

01:04:50
Speaker 1: Health but growing and all the experiences that's given me. I would love to be able to get other players involved, you know, in whatever that they you know, not obviously with what I'm doing specifically, but just helping them I want to do yeah, exactly.

01:05:03
Speaker 6: And actually, I mean, especially during COVID, we had a great response. I mean a lot of players were giving back, you know, whether that's mentoring, zoom calls or you know, giving out masks or you know, bringing supplies, bringing like coffees. I know Carolina did that, and so, you know, I think that players want to get involved. They just haven't been able to have an easy enough platform to do it, you.

01:05:30
Speaker 1: Know, because again it is so difficult. You don't have much time at all.

01:05:34
Speaker 6: You can't be approaching players at tournaments and saying hey, we need this, this and this.

01:05:37
Speaker 1: You know, they're just focused on tournament finding at the right time with a cause that is meaningful to them.

01:05:44
Speaker 6: I mean, like player engagement is one that I really love getting involved in.

01:05:49
Speaker 1: And then I did.

01:05:52
Speaker 6: I'm now on the UST board and I applied for that originally because you know, I want to make a difference, but I you know, I've had a tumultuous relationship with USTs, many players have, so I didn't really know what to expect going into it.

01:06:04
Speaker 4: And it's honestly, it's been a really.

01:06:06
Speaker 1: Great learning experience, kind of getting.

01:06:08
Speaker 6: To know the organizational aspect of very large organization, kind of how they manage everything and and all the difficulties and the challenges that I didn't realize as a player that they face. Yeah, definitely, and why running US Open was such a big deal for them and all for all the Slams. And then you know, with my own nonprofit, so I really obviously I'm very passionate about doing things on the ground and really saying.

01:06:34
Speaker 1: That we're making a difference on the ground and we can see that. And right now, I really like that kind of.

01:06:44
Speaker 6: The lens, Like I've got three different lenses but in the same sphere of tennis and working with development because I've got you know, the high level organizational side, I've got the player like high level but player engagement, and then got grassroots, so right now.

01:06:58
Speaker 1: I really enjoy that, so hopefully I'll be able.

01:06:59
Speaker 2: To continue that.

01:07:00
Speaker 6: I put a like right now, I paused it because I had this you know, two month last hurrah of playing tournaments paused kind of my work there, but now back into a lot of my work is going to serve me a pope right now, really trying to grow the organization and hoping people will get involved and you know, want to reach out and we'd love to get more people involved in that as well.

01:07:24
Speaker 5: How can they find you if they want to, if they're listening to this and thinking like, oh this is great, I want to lean forward and help. Is what is going to the website sending.

01:07:32
Speaker 6: I mean I've been pretty much like CEO and all staff combined.

01:07:37
Speaker 1: So if you reach out to our website or if you reach out.

01:07:40
Speaker 6: To social media, I mean you will get me. Actually, so I'm the one that's responding to all of that. You know, we have been collecting equipment. We've got a lot of people that have been donating equipment.

01:07:52
Speaker 1: We are starting a STEM program in Uganda, so even collecting like old computers and tablets. Also starting a mentorship program, so that's how you know, people can also get involved with our with our kids, and you know, obviously if you want to donate, we do need finances to keep running, so that would be greatly appreciated.

01:08:13
Speaker 6: I hate likes listening for money, but we are doing something good, I think. Yeah, So you know, would definitely love to get people involved, and however they like to.

01:08:22
Speaker 5: Get involved, We'll promise us you will come back on the show and maybe as soon as the summer when you're doing it in LA But tell us how it's going and keep us work because we need people like you to make change in every way. Talk about the USTA like, there's lots of places, and I think somebody as thoughtful and empathetic as you can have a giant, giant impact.

01:08:44
Speaker 3: Yes, thanks Anya joining us, and we're going to get out all that that info to everybody on our on our website and on the pod, and we just wish you good luck. We know, I know that you've had a very interesting life so far, and all those lessons they're going to be taught to the young kids of the world and we're gonna make them not only better players tennis players, but better people thanks to you.

01:09:08
Speaker 5: So thanks for jetting us, and that's it. For this episode of the Racket Magazine podcast. Thanks for listening. Our host is Renee Stubbs. Our co host and producer is me Caitlin Thompson. Music by internationally renowned DJ Stretch Armstrong.

01:09:23
Speaker 2: Thanks to Tim Or Jerry and the team at ACAST.

01:09:26
Speaker 5: Find us at racketmag dot com, slash podcast, and subscribe to us at any of your favorite podcatchers.