Kyler Murray Gets Paid; GM Rankings with Patrick Daugherty

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Speaker 1: Be Around the NFL podcast, My gol Welcome to another edition of Around the NFL. I am Dan Hansas. I'm joined by a virtual room filled with some heroes. Greg Rosenthal, Mark Sessler, and I don't want to step all over this boys, because we're about to hit it when we get to news. Obviously, Kyler Murray got a big pay day. How do we protect ourselves in the future. We're always striving to get better as a podcast, right, we spent so much time on Kyler Murray flotsam and jetsam, and in the end it played out exactly as you would have expected if you were taken out of the bubble of the NFL world. Since you know that playoff game in January, how do we avoid getting sucked into the bus next time when all the other podcasts and networks are going mad where we just nail it and say we're not talking about this because this guy will do this right before training camp? How do we protect ourselves? You know? My one note that I wrote down here and highlighted you know I like to do do that was just we went through so much to get here. Um. I will say this though, like compared to the Aaron Rodgers drama from the previous offseason. I found the Kyler Murray UM drama a little a little more delightful at terms, because it seems so botched, like the initial I mean, in the end, though Kyler Murray got what he wanted, I mean, he put out he put out the Age of the Agent's Note, which was this Russian novel that seemed to only land like a like with a big thud and have and the anti effect, and you were questioning if he was gonna even be with the team come the summer. Now it's like absolutely worked for Kyler Murray. So this this was um. I do think though the only other option Dan would be if we just went um froze ourselves in carbonite for like two months, because it's impossible not to talk about, right. I've like gone through a whole process even since you asked the question, like trying to come up with what you can do, and I've landed on just acceptance that like if we're here, we're here, we work for the NFL. We're taking that paycheck all year long, not just during the season, not just really from now through February is when it's truly interesting other than free agency in the draft and if we're just gonna be shown up and collecting that paycheck and work, and we just gotta we just have to accept that it's gonna it's gonna suck when when I suck, but just be a little meaningless, a little bit high. I think you're right. I think we're just in the grind. We're I believe this podcast is in its prime years, and there will be a time when we're in our fifties, maybe early sixties, if we're still doing this, God willing that you know, we'll just disappear for the entire spring and summer, and you know, the quality of the show will not be nearly as good, and we'll just because of that, miss all of this. And then yeah, in that sense, we will then will come back like the week of training camp, be like, oh, Kyler Murray signed that deal, just like we thought. You know where, I think we're doing a better job of it already, we just don't notice because it's gradual. We first of all, we bring up that issue when we talk about Kyler that it's probably gonna just end up this way. We know we're just spinning our wheels. And I do think we've done a better job in the off seasons, not paying as day to day attention and putting as much emphasis on the O T A s in the mini camps. So suddenly our listeners by the getting a better product because of our experience and expertise. I think we were fairly suspicious at each at each EBB and flow of this too about what was going on that it was just gonna end with money being paid to him. Money solves nine point eight percent of all of these issues. And that's what I just I just be like, just get the contract into their hands sooner. That's a good point you made, Mark, Yeah, that's great. That's a good point. Mark the key for quietly you missed that one. Dan just was like Mark's biggest fan market. That had to be intentional. That that Mark that has to feel good to have someone like a key for just be so locked locked in on your takes. I just gotta feel good. I mean, I have you know. Tony Crocy, another Beat reporter, did the same thing. I'm really my stock is rising with those again, because that's the thing is they weren't. It wasn't a bit, it wasn't on purpose. He was just so struck every time with the light emanating from your your mouth. That's a good point you made. Mark. Yeah, that's a great point. Mark, that's a good point. Mark it don segment or something it was. It wasn't even that long. I think, Mark, I think this is it's a sign it's time for you to go solo. I think it's time for you to fly. Because when you're when you're nailing that many takes at that level, you're you're carrying dead weight. You mean, just like a four hour radio show of my own drive time type scenario, right, like you follow Petris and Money on kale O, Sir, listenership just dives off the they're not klos. That's a shame on me. What where Petros and Money? Where could they be heard? A m five seventy in Los Angeles? Uh? I am not a true West Coast All right, let's do some news. Got to throw Murray in trouble, spins out of there to his left, being chased by two vikings, and launches a deep white open near side of the forties Rundal Moore cock at the thirties at the twenty At the fifteen ten five touchdown, Tyler Murray, you are ridiculous Murray magic seventies seven yard touchs down pass. Nine point nine percent of the quarterbacks on the planet gets sacked, but not only does Kyro Murray not get sacked, he throws a touchsdown Ah Dave passed Katie A r. Yes, we're inside fifty days until the season begins. Ends, and one of my favorite things is the Sunday night calls on the flagship program that wasn't I was obviously a memorable one involved involving Kyler Murray, who when he is at his best, is electrifying and uh, you know, not enough to keep him in the Superstar club. But maybe maybe Now with a new deal in hand with the Arizona Cardinals, his career resumes its upward trajectory. The Cards and Murray agreed to terms on a five year extension with Murray. Rap Sheet and Tom Pellisero reported Thursday. The five year extension is worth two hundred and thirty and a half million, with a hundred and sixty million and guarantees. He's now set to earn thirty million in the first year of the deal, sixty nine million over two years nice and a hundred and six million over three years according to Pellest Sarah, and that extension makes Kyler Murray the second highest highest paid player in the NFL, with an average per year value of forty six point one million, puts him ahead of Aaron Rods, behind d Aaron Rodgers, but ahead of Deshaun Watson, who signed that huge deal with the Browns. It's also official, Greggy, Um, your thoughts on this move? Are you completely completely confident that the Cardinals are in bed with a quarterback that could take them to the highest level? Yes. I think what Kyler shown out of his first three years is incredibly impressive. And I think he's subtly improved every season as a passer, and he was a very good passer to begin with. We we're talking about this, you know, rookie class and like what they can do to improve, Like think about how Kyler Murray stepped into the league as an above average starter from day one. That is not easy to do. He's figuring out how much he can use his legs. Definitely didn't run as much a year ago. Um, I think he's figuring out how to use the middle of the field. Did that better a year ago? He has this trend and that Cardinals do as a whole of falling up part late in the year, that's a concern. But this contract to me, mark like it's through. It just makes me feel like Kyler Murray is gonna be there. I think there's a question whether Cliff Kingsbury and Steve Kim are going to be there. They got one of the weirdest contract extensions this offseason because it was for five years on top of the one they already had coming. So they're through the next six seasons two and Kyler is through seven. In theory, that stability. But if the Cardinals struggle and I don't love this roster, I think Kyler Murray has some things working against him this year. Um. I do think there could be a change and that this contract helps to say to me, Kyler Murray is the franchise and like Cliff and and Steve Kim, they got to prove that that they can stick around with him. I mean, the one thing is that you know, Kyler Murray and Cliff Kingsbury are tied to the hit because he fits so well in the scheme to The Cardinals to me are a strange team, one of the stranger teams out there right now. I find them to be a little bit immature because of the way I guess that's the word i'd use, because of the way they crumbled down the stretch two years in a row. When Kyler Murray is not healthy, it completely impacts his game. We've seen that two seasons in a row too. But when they were ten and two at one point last season, they looked utterly unstoppable, totally powerful, and completely dynamic. And that's sort of what Kyler Murray is to me. I think his ceiling is elite, elite playmaker, but his floor is no showing in the playoff game against the Rams, I don't like. I just I think that I wonder about Kyler Murray the leader, Kyler Murray the how much is football like the center of his world? We'll see. I think this this also takes a lot of the you know, the feelings he was having that were negative at the end of last season and solves all that. So you're right, they're totally tied into him. He has the chance to be back in that superstar club. Dan. I think if he if the team, but not a lot of us to do with what the Cardinals doing. I don't know if I trust the team building or the coach long term underrated part of this, and I agree with all that. The underrated part of this for him as well, I think is durability and he is not a big guy. We've talked out on this on the show, and some of these fades down the stretch have been directly tied to him not being so he's kind of got to prove that he can take the beating that comes with being a quarterback, that comes with going through a seventeen game schedule and then being at your best needing. Like listen that Rams team where the Rams were in January and I was at that playoff game with noted Cardinals fan Jason Zumalt way up in the rafters at Sophie and it was a blood bath and Kyler. I'm not putting a loss on Kyler, but there's a part of me that came out of that game being like, man, the truly special quarterbacks, they kind of will their team to stay in the mix and it doesn't turn into an embarrassment like that game was. But again, it's one game. It was a bad day, and I think it's so hard to identify and find a franchise quarterback I agree with this move. I agree with the contract extension, but I just I just there's a little bit of trepidation to me still, and I think there are Cardinals fans that will agree with me on this. All Right, we feel like we do have to pay him. This is a good day for the organization. But let's just hope this plays out. It's not like when you give let's say Justin Herbert an extension next year or Joe Burrow and it's like, yes, we got this guy. This is seven more years of elite quarterback play and a leader, and a guy could take us to the doorstep or to the super Bowl. I don't know that yet about Murray, but I feel like they had to make the move. So yeah, I don't know that yet either, whether he's going to be that consistent at that level. But the upside you were talking about Mark, like the first nine weeks of last season, there there it is. I I went through my QB indexes for a different purpose a couple of weeks ago, just looking at where certain quarterbacks were at the rankings, and I noticed, like it was week ten and Kyler Murray was number two. It was week eight and Kyler Murray was number one. That was the type of season he was having until the injury happened. Until the it seems like defenses tend to catch up a little bit on what Cliffs doing. I just think he's just like so talented. He's just such a talented thrower of the ball, which is such a basic thing. But like that's not going anywhere. As long as he stays healthy, He's always going to be like top shelf, top five arms, I would say in the NFL, and that there's some like heady competition and that's just gonna always keep him getting paid, right, I mean, like PFFS pure pass rating from a year ago, Kyler Murray, despite the fade down the stretch of the entire team, trailed only Joe Burrow and Tom Brady. In other quarterback news, the wheels of the Jimmy Garoppolo transaction that takes him away from the forty nine is continue to turn slowly. Earlier this week, NFL Networks Ian Rap Report reported that Garoppolo is expected to be cleared medically by mid August, which is pretty late in the game considering the season starts a second week September, and then ESPN's Adam Schefter reported a day later that the Forts have given Oppolo permission to seek a trade. I didn't know that that wasn't already the case, but there you go, it was already the case. Yeah, that was a story in March. Literally there was a story from the same just to remind you you really have permission to seek a trade. And then Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland dot Com added some more layering to this story, but reporting that the Browns are still not expected to pursue a trade for Jimmy G. They're cool with Jake Brisket and then another type of backup backup Josh Rosen formerly of the Arizona Cardinals, a Steve Kim failed pick. By the way, Steve Kim and other gms will be discussed later in this episode with the great Patrick Doherty, who did his GM rakings for NBC Sports Edge. Um, we'll see where the Browns go with quarterback, but most likely it is not gonna involve Garoppolo. I just think that it is an awful offseason for a mid level quarterback like Jimmy G to be seeking a trade to another team. I mean, it's it to see hawks. We've talked about We talked about this twelve times. I guess the Texans maybe sort of a dark horse because there are past obvious Patriots connections in there and and that's been whispered about. But where's he gonna go and who's gonna want to pay that salary off a trade? And I think they also know that teams know they have the Niners over a barrel right now. I mean, I've always thought that the best thing that could happen to San Francisco is training camp ticking off soon, something disastrous happens to a starting quarterback elsewhere in the NFL landscape, and Jimmy g is your only other option. Yeah. I think that report that Ian put out that was like mid August, it was positioned as like a positive thing that he's been throwing for a few weeks and like everything, you know, he's going to be stronger than ever. But I think that mid to late August timeline, it gets out there and teams are like, you know, no one, no one wants him until that point, that's for sure. And it was almost like a response this this report from ESPN that like they've officially given permission to the trade, even though we announced that they officially gave permission to a trade five months ago. It was almost a response to me to to Ian's reports, saying like, yeah, you can have him now and get him in your building, but it's not gonna happen, and your right market's gonna take some sort of injuries. I do think the Texans would make a lot of sense because I just think why wouldn't they if nothing else happens, give him a Baker type of contract where they're only paying him eight million dollars and they'll give up a fifth round pick and they just have another quarterback in their building. I think that makes sense. In other news, rap Sheet also reports that there's quote some optimism that Saints wide receiver Michael Thomas will be cleared early in training camp. Thomas, of course recovering from that ankle injury he suffered Week one, ruined that season, and then he missed all um He missed most of one because of lingering issues connected to that ankle. So it's such a big piece for the Saints. You know, they're playing greg in a soft division. They have a lot of good pieces on both sides of the ball, but there are these two big questions at quarterback with j miss and how he recovers from a reconstructed knee, and then Michael Thomas, is he gonna be back? Is he gonna put the ankle in the rear of your mirror? And what kind of player will he be after essentially missing two seasons. I find him as important a veteran as any in the NFL to watch over the next six or seven weeks. We we can get a little carried away of what happens in training camp because you know, we're back in the machine and we're covering every day and like making too big a deal out of things. But Thomas is someone that you want to really see and hear progress from over the last six or seven week. It is very concerning to me that he's not ready for the start of camp like we were hoping all throughout last year, like who is he gonna get back? Is he gonna get back? And here are we are another six months later and he's not totally ready. That that's a concern. I mean, I feel like we haven't seen him since about uh but you know they've got Jarvis Landry, got Chris LaVey. I think Jamis Winston is healthy. That's all great, but what took Sean Payton to mask over the absence of Michael Thomas. I don't know that I have the confidence that den this Allen and Company can do the same type of magic. Do you want more number one wide out murkiness? Please the NFC. How about Deebo Samuel? He requested a trade a couple of months back. As far as we know, he never rescinded that trade request, and according to Tom Palicero of NFL Network, there's nothing imminent as it pertains to Samuel and the Niners agreeing to an extension. And this is important. It's unknown whether he will report to training camp on Tuesday, when veterans are scheduled to report. Uh. This came from a Pelsera report from yesterday. So they have been a communication. They have had talks about a long term deal, but it's unclear how close the parties are. This market remains a situation where it's unclear where they stand. Yeah, and I mean this this is so tied to the Jimmy g thing, because if you move Jimmy G or or flat out release him at some point, you open up twenty four million dollars in cap rim, which they they are in a terrible cap situation right now. Also, I mean, I know you can structure a deal anyway you wanted for debot, but the idea of you know, we're gonna get into talking about the Shanahan John Lynch front office combination and what it means. How important is the tray Lance is the guy they thought he was. But but you try to imagine a world where you put tray Lance basically walking off a plank into the ocean if you don't have Deebo Samuel on the field, I mean, they just have to get it done. In other pass Catcher news, the Bucks signed tight end Kyle Rudolph, formerly of the Giants, to a one year contract. I think this is a notable signing boys, because, uh, Kyle Rudolph, this version of Kyle Rudolf, the age thirty three version of Kyle Rudolph, is the perfect guy to slot in. You bring in in the summer and then he's going to fail, and then you're gonna look and be like, we really need someone, and then that's when Gronk re enters the picture. So you need that guy, Mark, You need the dude who's not going to get it done before Gronk can come back. This will be this is the dude that will fail to get it done. This is a a masterful central casting move here by the Bucks, because you're exactly right. It's just you slide them in, you slide them right out in the minute that you know. I grant protest too much about this. I don't care. Tom Brady even called me I wouldn't come back and play. I still am fully Williams to bet my lease card that he'll be back on the field by Thanksgiving. All right, we seem to have lost Greg momentarily, but I thought you put a nice bill on that. I thought I nailed the overall take. And then you came in and dropped the hammer on it, mark and we nailed that. So we don't even see exactly and finally in the news and let that be a warning shot for Greg that I'll drop the hammer. Then you come in with a secondary hammer. Nothing the nails already in the rail. You know, for like the British Bulldogs, it's a very successful tag team operation. But you know, Greg is sort of like the the the manager of the of the tag team. So what if we're the heart foundation and like a Jimmy Hart type character. Yeah, I like that. I think that fits, that fits his vibe. And finally in the news sound the trope Alert, Derek Carr's getting us going in training camp the right way with one of my favorite tropes, not just for the NFL um mark, but all of professional sports. No one believes in us. No one thinks we're worth a damn. No one thinks the Raiders can even hang in the a f C West, which, by the way, no one's saying. He had to say in a lengthy conversation with the Athletic it's gonna be fun. No one thinks anything of us. And I think this is actually how he said it as well, And I think that's what makes it fun is you always have to put the ball down and play the football games. That's exactly how he said. I like it. I like to quote more um with that tone of voice if that's how he uttered it. Um. I think it's not it's garbage. Like I think most people view the Raiders as they're in a tough division, but every other team in the division like overtly improved in certain ways and something that's the problem of getting lost in that in the conversation of the a f C West to some degree. But they were a playoff team last year that went through so much and they're better now. I think Josh McDaniels can improve them on offense. I don't quite get the US against the World bit on this one. I mean, they're yeah, they're a ten win team that just added the best wide receiver in football? Right, Why would that? Why would that trigger a sudden like all like a nonbelief across the countryside towards the Raiders. It's just not the case, like statistically, one of the greatest wide receivers ever smack in the middle of his prime. I mean, I feel like you at least have a chance. But that's what it is, Mark, I know, and we were making our way up the chain in the NFL podcast industry, we would have conversations like that as well. Nobody believes in US, beholden to no one, and in some ways there are still a lot of people out there that don't believe in US, and and that that keeps me hungry. I don't know about you, Ah, yeah, I just stopped reading my d m s about a year and a half ago from you know, anyone's filing a complaint. I just I could care less absolutely speaking of that before we take a break and get to Rhodo Pat somebody on Twitter, Uh, you weren't with us on Mark, but but we talked with Erica, owner of huck A Poo's, um about this BS sound ordinance that's been put into place to specifically target the Great Tybee Island. Hang huck A Poo's uh, no live music, no music of any kind after eleven PM. And um, I called the figure that's behind this because apparently it's one person that logged a complain and that was enough for the city council to pull their BS and we're fighting it and we're gonna keep fighting it. Um I called the shadowy figure that's behind this um or perhaps it was members of the city council. I can't remember this point, but I called them human gutter balls, okay, And someone on Twitter came after me and said, hey, boz oh, that's mean to speak disparaging lee of a person like that. And by the way, I don't think Chris would have been that way either said anything like that either, to which I say, did you listen to the show with Chris Wesley. Chris would have said so much worse than what I said. He would have completely gone off on this topic. I think people have to remember that when Chris Wesley was a Roto World writer way back in the day, it was not unusual for him to be logging his updates and reports from Hucka Poos. He spent all his time there. It was his home, and he spent most of his early days in Los Angeles trying to find a place that reflected Hucka Poos and it was not easy to find, and so died. The idea that he would have been passive about this is completely incorrect. Um, and I Mark, by the way, Greg did not come back, and I just see now he he just sent a text to Lakisha and our group thread just now, so I guess he just he's out. He's out for the so we'll try to get him back. During the break for the conversation with Pat, I could see his his hand gestures because we could see him, you know, visually on the screen, and he was very flustered and frustrated. And um, you know, I think the office WiFi, UM took a big l here. Yeah, now that that is that's the issue. But all right, that's what's happening in the news. Let's take a break and then talk best and worst GMS. Welcome back, joining us now, NFL writer for NBC Sports, a staple of the Fantasy Extravaganza, speaking of which will be celebrating the Fantasy Extravaganza next month. But right now to talk about his latest column, A True Anger NFL's General Manager Rankings two is Rhodo Pat Not today, He's Patrick Dahardy. What up? Patrick? Welcome back to the around the NFL. It's very very glad to be here, just here to talk about some of your coworkers. So um yea too soon, But yeah, you know, is this a good or bad time to publish this article? By the way, I can't ever decide, like what it's a good time to publish anything. Here's a here's a great here's a great. Kind of way to get into that is that Greg a few months ago did his own GM rankings, and that I expressed disappointment with Greg, not as a person but from a podcast sense that he didn't mouthpiece and say, hey, we should do a segment on your GM rankings. So we kind of missed the boat. On its then the draft came. But Greg, who's been doing this for quite a while, as you know, as you know Pat, he does it in the spring. So Greg, I don't know if you wanna give Pat a heads up that maybe that's the better time or maybe has it right. I don't know, let's dig in. I used to do it in the spring, by the way, and I knew that Greg did it. And this is not a joke. Actually, when I was done with the article, for one of the first things that was pull up Greg's articles, I really hope we weren't like wildly divergence of it was a little divergence. And actually I thought that Greg was like annoyed um and just not speaking right now. But it looks like his his screen's frozen right now, so he appears to have been frozen or he's really mad. He's very good at speaking still, so I think he act. But Pat, this is a something we definitely as soon as I saw it and I was reading, I was like, oh, yeah, you put in the work on this breakdown. This would be a fun conversation to have, is you know. And we just did the news and there's a lot cooking now out of nowhere in the news, and now training camps are about to really take off. So this is our last chance to really have fun with an article like this. I feel like before two season gets off and rolling like a freight train. So let's talk about it. Marksler, you, I know, buddy, read Pat's work here. Um at all nineteen thousand words. I really appreciate that, which depressive. What was your general takeaways from what Rhoda Pad had to say in the state of the general manager job right now in the NFL. UM, I thought he made some a couple of bold choices. I like him going less sneaed and Sean McVeigh um right out of the gate at number one. Um I I do wonder because you get to Bill Belichick at number two. I imagined that the reader response, that's where you get some people coming at you, UM with for the sense that you know Bill Belichick is is an excellent coach. But I think sometimes people if you Bill Belichick the general manager has having had some misses along the way. UM I just I would say generally overall, your writing is really wonderfulness. And I kind of found one or two lines for each one of these gms that just stood out and made me laugh because I can we can always tell when you're when you've been writing blurbs on Rhodo World. It's just like there's a little there's a little extra spice to things that you say. And I thought this this this article was was dotted and really like imbued with them throughout us. It was a really nice piece of writing. It was I totally agree. Let's start then kind of let's focus on the Belichick side of things, because I think what you said, Pat is interesting here. You wrote in the piece that you cannot separate Bill the coach from Bill the team builder. They are one and the same. Why do you say that? What does that mean? Yeah, so this is kind of the argument I advanced every year with Belichick, and kind of the argument have to lean on as they get a little further from like the glory years. Like listen, I know, like it seems like Bill the coach is still doing a great job and the roster isn't that great. But uh, what what what I mean by that is like we might not always understand the Patriots rosters, say, like of the time, we don't understand the Patriots roster, but Bill Belichick the greatest coach in league history, understands the kind of players he needs and wants and like, and this roster is much maligned as like the past five or six drafts have been. It's kind of like, you know, now, this's like increasing desperation, like dipping into the free agent market for kind of very on Belichick like signings. You're like, five years ago if you had heard Bill Belichick could shout out big bucks for Nelson Agle, or you'd be like, what the heck? Like has Bill Belichick been incepted? Has even Jordan's appeals note, Um, I have no idea what the movies even about, but I think you maybe nailed it. I think you maybe, and I think it ties into what you're saying that. On Tuesday's episode of Around the NFL, we talked about making the leap candidates a piece that Gregg was working on, and he was pleasantly surprised as a Patriots fan that there were several choices there. And that speaks to you you do have a stable yeah, and like as so as as questionable as so many of the decisions have looked the past two years. So I mean, okay, he lost the greatest player in league history, then went seven and nine. Maybe that's damning with faint praise to say that's an accomplishment, but I thought it was kind of an accomplishment, you know, essentially not at a quarterback in and still goes seven and nine, and then they just made the playoffs with a rookie quarterback. Like I feel like normally that's like celebrated and team building circles, Like it's not very easy to do, and like it's one fact that I guess maybe I could be accused of like leaning on too heavily. But it's like, so I'm prone to giving Bill Belichick the benefit of doubt for obvious reasons, and maybe I don't understand every decision on a micro level, but macro level find himself fifty three players who got into the playoffs with a rookie quarterback. So I'm like, maybe I'm still gonna give the guy a little benefit of the doubt, you know, a bit of a legacy ranking, of course, but sure, here here's the top five, just so we have it. So yes, Ned McVeigh with and notice, even though it's GM rankings, as you point out in this piece, it's not really it's not just the GM anymore in the league. More and more it is a collaborative effort. And the guys on the sideline, the head coaches have a big say. Uh in roster building in a lot of cases, in addition to other people within a building, personnel, guys, the owner himself all that stuff, but you have less need and Sean McVeigh at one, Bill Bell check it to Greg who joins us, by the way, is back with us. We'll see where he's at in a minute. Brandon Bean of the Bills at three, Andy Reid and Brett Veach are the chiefs at four, and then John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan. I get more pushback my number five, by the way, Lynch and Kyle Shanahan. But people, there's so much isn't so much talking? Yeah, go ahead, give him some pushback there, Greggy real quick to Dan too this you're right. I wanted to call like front office rankings because I feel like it's less clear than ever, like who is It's no, that's what I was told, and uh like who was like driving? Yeah, Like it's a very powerful force. Again, the combination coach like personnel picker to the point where even like Matt rule, you know, has like sweeping personnel powers. So it is is another era very powerful coaches right now in the NFL, Greg, where are you now? You're in a different room than when you froze in our students, I am now and shutdown corner that one that's like on the corner, like a conference room that everyone walks by, and you would think that there'd be strong internet in in our studio. But that seems like a bad place to record a podcast. So are you cool just circling back? Um? Are you cool with the timing of Rhoto pats GM rankings because yours came out back in the spring, the dead of summer. Where you're you're trying to create some sort of friction between me and my former coworker Pat here. It was success when you did it with Kevin Silva last year, but it's not going to be successful this time. No, Look are I think it was our editors. You know, we decided to do it before the draft a long long time ago, and I think both times there are a fine time to do it. If anything, I think Pat's smarter than than we are here at the NFL. If you're gonna drop something, drop it in that two week period before training camp starts. That's when you get the most amount of attention because no one's doing anything. That's why our friend Zach Keith, it was so smart to drop that luck pod right then. It was like the biggest story in the NFL for a week. So, um, Pat's smarter than us mastering the dead zone not like six different months. And I finally settled on like July. So but why with that said, why Greg did Pat botch number five, John Lynch Kyle Shanahan in the Niners? Although Belichick at two? I mean, I love Belichick as you had him attendre I was literally the first thing I love when I finished the article, so I didn't want to read the article, so I wasn't didn't have you in my head, like in my mind's eye, like while I'm writing the article. After I immediately tricked and you had Belichick at I was like, I got a lot of grief of like Belichick was too high at ten, uh polarized reaction. I was looking at more recently and he had a good year last year. He I think he did well in free agency and great in the draft. Best draft they've had forever. But they've been terrible drafting for a while now, did John Does John Lynch and Kyle Shanahan get a little too much credit here, especially Lynch here, Like I still it still bothers me. I guess that they you know, passed on Patrick Mahomes, you know, for Solomon Thomas, and that they're still waiting for a quarterback all these years later. They could have taken a quarterback the next year after that too, uh, and it kind of made the wrong decisions with Jimmy g or a long way. There's some premier talent there, uh that they got at the top of the draft certainly, and they've they've done a good job drafting, But I feel like that's a little too rich for me. Yeah. I feel like by and large they get like the big decisions right with the notable a couple of notable exceptions in there, and pretty good like finding like Shanny type players down the board. I mean one of the Shanty's like biggest foible is like these aggressive trade ups for guys like he has to have with then he immediately like disregards like Dante Pettis or Tray certainly, like it makes like aggressive trade ups and Trey Lamps will definitely be the biggest test like of of like did Shanny like it was just like a cry of like shanty passion. Basically, we're like the one month he had to have Trey Lance happened to be like April like before and after that he's been cool on him, and well, don't you think he's gonna like subtly blame John Lynch. That feels like that's the reason if they this year that they have a divorce, that Lynch gets the ax because he's the Lance guy, and that Kyle wanted mac Jones all along, right, because I mean, Shanahan has been about his bulletproof a coach and he deserves that. They've been to, you know, two NFC title games in a Super Bowl over the last three years. But if the Tray Lance thing goes south, there will be a fall guy and it won't be Shanahan. It is it's the It's kind of a good seg idea, so I'm gonna burn it right now, unfortunately, But like what is if you had to pick one, like what's the juiciest subplot of the season, I think Trey Lance and what happens this year tied to that team with that coach and where they are in the NFC is such a huge story line because you know they are if Trey Lance is who they thought he could be or approximation of that this season there to me the NFC favorite. And if he bombs out and you trade Jimmy g and that's certainly in play right now. Uh, this whole thing could go up in flames. So it's just a huge subplot. And I'm like, here's another. Brian Gooda cuts is another. I want to see where Shanny and Shanahan come down on this same ranking next year. Maybe one of those guys won't be even in the ranking next year. But Brian Gooda counts. I don't think he's coached gm NG for his job this year by any stretch, but it's fair to say that he kind of is in a situation now where the Davante Adams situation played out the way it did and you could say it wasn't even his fault. I think you used the wording in your peace Path that he forced his way to the Raiders, and he kind of did. But maybe, if, if, if he could have done it again differently, good counts, maybe he handles that situation, and maybe the best water receiver in the league is still in the team. You have these other project player is like Lizard Watkins Watson all in the mix. Where would the Packers fall on this exercise, especially if this doesn't work out this year, It's very interesting to find out MHM it is And it's real quick to put a bow in the forty niner. So it's like the way I viewed it, like this, They've made a fifty three men roster that was good enough to make the NFC Championship Game twice in three years with Jimmy Garoppolo. Like that's a good roster, like their stockpiled talent on defense, identified Shanny type playmakers and offense. But then yeah, like kind of like a heat check making a luxury pick, like right in the middle of your Super Bowl window. It is gonna be like an era defining decision for them, the Packers and Brian Guda Kunts. It's like he's gone from Aaron Rodgers being out of a long term plans too. Now Aaron Rodgers is the only plan and like you know, his most visible mistake, of course, was not re restocking the receiver corps but it was fine as long as they had the best receiver on the planet. But then the best receiver on the planet happened to be soul mates with Derek Carr and like that's just the Brakes is the GM apparently, And now I knew that love story was hiding in plain sight this entile time. It was in plain sight, wasn't it? Where Well, I mean I found that that interview from last summer John too Ams, Like yeah, like it's like I'm still a Raiders fan, Like that's a little interesting, like saying it's his college quarterback is on the team, and I just like didn't pay any attention to it though, just like memory hold it And yeah, the Goudakunts Highwire act really dependent on Davonte Adams And now we're going to see if there was any safety net whatsoever. I had a question for you. I mean, I'm looking at when you get past this sort of top five region, someone like John Robinson at number nine, I think is um mildly controversial because I feel like Mike Rabel has done a lot to um make John Robinson, to erase some of John Robinson's mistakes along the way. But whether it's him or someone else. Was there a GM that you really struggled with where to put him, that he maybe started high and went low, because I feel like Robinson could be farther down this list and I wouldn't have a big problem with that at all. Really the whole John Robinson region, it was eight, Howie Roseman, nine, John Robinson, ten, is Gouda Kunst eleven, Chris Ballard twelve, Erica Costa, who I probably do have too low Eric, Like Erica Costa is really good, just kind of like I have to see like slightly more results even though the process has been really good. But John Robinson was a guy like before I had like done any research for I had written any words, and like, you know, I need to get John Robinson like kind of high in these rankings because they want what they won thirty two games the past three years. They've been a number one seed, They've made the a f C Champions Game. They've done this with Ryan Tannehill, and I'm like to do that kind of stuff with Ryan Tannell quarterback. You have got to have like a great roster. But then you kind of remember, like, oh, you know the Titans defense, actually they have Jeffrey Simmons, but kind of like low on overall playmakers. It seems like depends a lot on Mike Rabel, kind of like duct tape and gluing things together. And John Robinson getting a lot of big decisions wrong. Like I said, Wilson not even on the team anymore, Caleb Farley kind of living up to pre draft or ability concerns, the Juliu Jones traded disaster. So John Robinson was one where I definitely to adjust my prioritis, Like, yeah, I wanted to say this guy was underrated, but now maybe I'm like overrating him. And this is really kind of all about Mirabel being an elite coach he hired. He gets a little credit I can see hiring. I consider that in the rankings he he was right around the same spot for me. I had him eleven, but in the same area. He's actually done a pretty good job drafting. And he gets credit for Tannehill to to fix your quarterback position. Uh that well, that cheaply is amazing, and I gotta stand up for my guy. Goody. I had him up at number four. It's like, Okay, it doesn't look great that your receiver room isn't totally perfect right now. But if if there's a position on the roster that I don't mind being underserved when Aaron Rodgers is your quarterback, it's wide receiver, and the rest of the roster looks awesome. The defense looks loaded. I would say that the top five defense on paper and compared to where it was when Goody came over. He has nailed most of his draft picks and all they have done is one And I you know, I do blame the playoffs or anything to me isn't on the GM. He put together a roster that has won so many games they could go like, oh and a team this year. They could maybe do it again next year and they wouldn't have as bad a record as Kyle Shanahan and Lynch do together, who are under five hundred. I mean, that's how good the Packers have been. I'm just saying, like, I'm giving him a little bit of credit for the first decision you make is Diarra Alexander. You know your other picks who people didn't love, like Rashan Gary looks like a potential all pro. I mean, he is, for the most part, made sound decisions. I didn't even hate the process of taking Jordan's love at the time, I think I'm one of the few, uh that that and even now if he's like a decent backup quarterback, I don't hate it. I like, I love what Goody has done. It's a lot of it is you know, conflict resolution and the Aaron Rodgers thing got really rough, but he found his way out of that. I mean, in another world, Aaron Rodgers isn't on that team. If if the if the front office completely lost their way, whether that was totally devision or not, he was, he was on board with it. So Greg thinks it's quote unquote good if your roster goes thirteen and three every year, right, maybe you're underrated. And your defense is the backbone of the Goody project where great picks, like great defensive line too though, like Elton Jenkins and the great free agency finds like Deveandre Campbell even and he signs Scenarius Smith, right, that was the Goody also was a little Douglass. Yeah, but just yeah, just those receivers, you know, you just maybe hadn't drafted the h back, Josiah Degura, the Jordan love, you know, just maybe drafted receiver, then that would have been nice. I like that you got sucked into the same thing I get sucked into with the power rankings with Andrew Berry and anything Browns related. You don't really know what to do with him, so you just pop him in the middle around seventeen sixteen because you can't remove obviously the Watson, the play, or from everything else at this point. However, if you did if in a in a vacuum and you said this, GM gave up all these draft assets and all this money and got this franchise quarterback and be like, yes, you always make the move to get the young franchise quarterback. So in that way, obviously he made the team better. But because of all the other garbage that he brought into the organization and he wasn't alone Barry, Um, you create the situation where they're a very hard team to distill or figure out, including in this exercise, because what Barry did was both a great personnel move and also like a gross life move. So it's just again, everything is so much more difficult with the Browns now and just even beyond Watson, everything with the Browns I've had such like turnover in the front office that I still like it's like truly difficult to know where, like like it's difficult to know where to like truly assign like credit or blame for anything. It's like there's some of this is still like the John Dorsey era, some of the what is Paul day Podesta like really doing my like what is Jimmy has them? Like Jimmy haslum Is insisting Andrew Berry was like the brains behind the Deshaun Watson move, But I don't know if I really believe that, you know, it seems very much like an owner move. And yeah, so it was hard to get past my distaste for the Watson move. And then also it's hard to really know it's an opaque organization with so much turnover and like really know like what is going on in the front office there. But I mean like a year ago, because I think the Watson thing absolutely colors the viewpoint of Andrew Berry and his legacy to depending on how this all shakes out, But a year ago, Andrew Berry would have been kind of a sexy top ten g M candidate. I think after taking you know, they when when he when he took over, you know, he returned to the Browns. He left for the Eagles and came back, so there was been a lot of weird changeover and stuff. But when he returned and to turn them into a team that beat the Steelers in the playoffs with a really interesting young roster. He's drafted well, like he looked like a shining star. I just think that this move so ails everything that you think about the team and him in the front office and everyone else. Yeah, there's nothing sexier than coming in and immediately fixing your offensive line, which is what he did. And like you said, there's an alternate universe, I mean where he's yeah, an ascendant, viewed as like one of the most ascendant personnel people in the entire league. And it's just and yeah, it's just hard now, especially, it's just hard to separate at all now. And I don't know if I'll ever be able to properly evaluate well. And they underperformed last year. As much as everyone said they had the best roster in the league, they weren't, you know, they were they were average. And two yeah, they they had their injuries and Baker's injury certainly was a big factor. But it's like I've seen Andrew Berry rank like PFF had their top five GMS and they had him like third and process and it's like you're trying to separate what happened this offseason from everything else. It's like, well you can't, Well how can you? If it works out that that's a different conversation in terms of wins and losses. But there's a very good chance he's gonna wear this for the rest of his career. And it was something and that everyone put their careers online when they made a move. I've got to ask you, Rhodo, Pat john Schnyder at twenty two. Um, I'm imagine this is another one that's getting You know, Seahawks fans on Twitter are quite on an active group, but I think active is the right word. Yes, they are active. I mean to to allow Russell Wilson to lead the team. I think that drops him a lot because you're back starting looking over at quarterback and it essentially allowed you know, Pete Carroll to win the power battle there, which I'm not sure is the right way to go. But where like, where was he a year ago for you versus now? Well, that's what's so funny about John Snyder is this is the first year, I finally like plunged him, like put him, put him beyond twenty. And I had always kept him like benefit of the doubt, like top ten, where he was still like eight or nine the past years, and I got like so much flak for that, like you have Steve Kim above him, which I find interest, Hold on, Hold on a second, Yeah, yeah, does he get Does Schnyder still get at it from the early odd because to be behind the kind bomb at this point is Schneider ranking is basically when you're a guy with that long of a track record and who's like been to some super Bowls and you're getting ranked that low, it's basically like a rank that's like a prediction like this person will be fired or two basically, and it's hard to know just a string of legendary draft classes of course, basically to begin to Pete Carroll era, we just Richard Sherman, Russell Wilson, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And then you know this a little diminishing returns the past five and then like the two signature moves you know in this era where might finally the passing Golden Age, might you know, kind of be ending. But you don't really want your signature moves to be trading two first round picks for a safety and then getting two first round picks for your franchise quarterback. And it's just like hard to shake, you know. I personally find with teams going contrarian to the run right now, as we see saw last year, like that could be a pretty successful short term approach. Like I don't think the Seahawks have the defense or the offensive line for that approach to work. And this it's this kind of seems like Carol and Schneider out of ideas. And I don't know why the Seahawks allowed Pete Carroll to win this particular power struggle with Russell Wilson, but it just seems seems like delaying the inevitable. And this is gonna be like a new front office in a year or two. Yeah, I think we've talked about the ownership issue. I think the fact that they're gonna be selling, but they don't necessarily want to change up what's going on there before they do sell. It's it's too bad because if you just stop time in, you would have said John Schneider and Pete Carroll are some of the best drafting and developing defensive talent minds in NFL history, but the defense has been totally mediocre since then, and basically everything that they've drafted, for the most part, they've struck out getting above mediocrity and getting good picks. Although I do think on paper this year they're in tregue game they might be like a top ten type of defense, little Pete Carroll renaissance, well, and it would be It would be very funny. I mean, as much as like I don't believe in Pete Carroll anymore, like I do kind of want him to win the argument, I just think it would be so fun I'm kind of rooting for a contrarians Seahawks like go eleven and six, and everyone's like, what well, of course because gin with missoo massoo great Drew Locker. All right, I want to look at number twenty. First of all, I'm very happy that you put Joe Douglas inside the top twenty. He's in the teens, he's at nineteen. I don't know if all this stuff is gonna work out, but I think he's instilled some credibility for my Jets right now. And now we've got to see if it all comes together. But I like what he's doing. I like the moves he's made. Brad Holmes also, I like what he's doing here, And you make a good point in your right up, Pat, How you know he got right to work when he got the job, He moved Matthew Stafford didn't want to be there, got the draft picks, and has used this draft. He's been patient since he's taken the job. They don't have their future quarterback yet, but while they wait for that big time draft or opportunity to present itself, he's making the roster be better. So I'd like, even coming off a season with a really poor record, the bigger pictures and view for Rhodo Pat. Yeah, I mean Brad Holmes. I like that he's not trying to cut corners. He's being a box checker where it's very hard to have two top seven picks and not take a quarterback either time. But I guess this wasn't the right time either, and so he's doing the next picks thing, next best thing where he's he's boxed checking. Let's get a franchise tackle. Let's take a shot like a like a number one weapon for the offense. Uh, let's get the coach and or like Greg said, you can't ignore the coach. Uh, you know, may like make the bows the bet the most. I can't speak English of being a rebuilding team and stockpile the picks and it just seemed like they're whipping everything into shape. And you know, kind of the downside of that is that if you kind of get into like seven or eight wind Land, then you kind of almost take yourself out of position to make the quarterback the next box to check. So I guess that can be like the downside to this approach, But I don't really know what the alternative was. Uh, you couldn't. There's no quarterback pick to force this year. There really wasn't last year either, unless we believe in justin fields and so I just like the Brandon, they certainly could be regretting not taking Mac Jones in a few years. Why why you know Mac? You know, Max could be one of those fast He's only one of those guys for like the next five to ten years, just gets himself into every single conversation. When Greg, what do you do you think that was Mac one of those guys early career ceiling? Is he already bumping up against the ceiling, or do you really think there's more steps from Mac Jones to take. I've been too on the record about this. All I mean is if he if he has like a multiple Pro Bowl type of career, which feels very possible that they could look back on, you know, taking pens all over him certainly. But yeah, I think we focus on the lines. I'll be all about any not taking him, and so Brad Holmes will be out of narrative hell because he can just like kind of sneak out of the room while people talk about Shanny not taking Jones. I love what they do. Almost everything they've they've done, focusing on both lines right after that, they've been great. And Joe Douglas thing. Putting Joe Douglas and Nineen is kind of like Jets fans don't yell at me, like I like the process more or less, where he's doing the same thing as Brad Holmes. Really he's taking a shot at quarterback. They hopefully have their left tackle. The future is kind of hard to say what's going on with Beckton and but this year you know they were they made three first round picks. They get a pass rusher. Uh, they get a wide receiver who's the other third round first round pick. They got a number one cornerback, and I had to like the Joe Douglass box checking. And unlike Brad Holmes, he doesn't have a quarterback Albi anymore because like now, he's already on the spot at quarterback. And if if Zack Wilson doesn't take a a clear step forward this year, that the Joe Douglas project is suddenly looking very shaky. But I have liked the post gaze approach, and Greg, I just want to make sure because I want to pin you down on this if if your boy up there in New England ends up going to a couple of Pro Bowls, but it's like the Matt shob multiple Pro Bowl thing where he got in. It's like a seventh reserve because the guy in front of him his daughter at a dance recital, and the other guy, Jones first Pro Bowl last year doesn't count. He did actually make the Pro Bowl and made a ridiculous play in it, but that doesn't count anything else. Before we say goodbye to Mr Rhodo Pat, who we'd love to have back, by the way for the Fantasy extravaganza. I don't know if he's going to be available. I don't know if we have to pay for him, but it would be awesome. Is there anything else Mark that jumped out to you or Greg from this list? Trent Balkie by the way, for people who are curious, as it sits at the bottom of the list. Uh, that's kind of an incomplete I think he might remain there, but that's kind of incomplete. But yeah, I think he might end up staying there. Out of a question for for the group, because you know, we have our our Dalton scale, where if you have essentially Andy Dalton back in the day as your starter, um, anything below him on the list you need to find someone else fast And like, what what would be the Dalton scale of the GMS? For me? When I took a look at this, I thought, maybe I don't see I don't really agree with you have John Schnyder, But for me, it's sort of Steve Kim. I think that he's gonna say kind feels like he's a that that does make sense because he makes the playoffs every one a while. Sure they never win a playoff game, and sure it might have been Bruce Arians. But and sure he gets every first round pick except Kyler Murray wrong. But he occasionally does some good stuff and he yeah, he. I feel like Kim is the Dalton line of g MS. I mean that the ownership thinks he's better than that they've paining him through. I do the strange goings on there occasionally with the front of the Cardinals ownership, like the worst decision the Cardinals ownership made was leaving St. Louis. Of course, so Greg. That actually plays into the argument because the Bengals held on too Andy Dalton for way longer than frustrated fans would have thought too. I think times a good one is a pretty good pick, time is a very good If you're below time, it's time to move on. So again, John Schneider is gonna be fired next year. It's a shame. Here's a good executive. They had a great run, but he's gonna get fired. The Pride of St. Louis, Patrick Daugherty, thank you, buddy for joining us. Say hi to your fourteen kids and your wonderful wife, and we'll catch up with you in a true and my true pleasure. And I will make myself available for the extravagance. Yeah, so like four am, Copenhagen time, I'll be there, thank you very much. All right, there he goes Rhodo pat great to have him. Yeah, that's I think is who else would be even in that conversation for I think time's got that unlock and well, there's something weird with gms. I'm looking at all of them, and they either seem like their their career is falling apart too much to be that person, or they're they're have too much of a good body of work to be that person. So I almost feel like, because Kime to me is a bit of a house of cards that I think might be falling apart. So I don't even I don't even think he's quite there. But he's had his ups and down certainly maybe that makes sense. But the rest, like the guys I had in the middle of Tom to Tlasco, Jerry Jones, like those guys are too good to be. It's kind of survivor to getting the Kyler Murray done after all that, you know, that's I feel like that will help him as well, because that will keep them most likely from having like an epic type of fallback fall down. The standings, but we shall see time has survived like five nuclear wars at this point, so I mean it's you know, the organization has allowed him to make these mistakes and continued to continue to reward and basically, if you if you miss on a top ten wide quarterback, usually that will get you. But then he got to pick another guy the very next year, so he's kind of in his own category. It's bizarre, as has been um our final episode with Greg in a conference room, uh in some part of the building, bright red chairs behind him. Sounds like it seems like the place where people get fired. That room you're in right now, Yeah, I think you know which one. It's. It's the one we pass every day, right that's the closest to the news room, that's in between the podcast studio. It's shut down corner. It's where it's Stephan Gilmore's picture is right at the front making that beautiful leaping interception in one of the greatest Super Bowls of your life. I mean, they're seen two three Patriots. I don't. I don't obviously, um never a celebration when someone loses their job, but our office does name the different rooms, Like you're saying after great moments in NFL history. What if there was an office that was only for dismissals and firings and it was like called like Naggi's nook, and there's a big Matt Naggie on the sideline looking confused or bewildered or angry. Not a bad I did. And if you like get called into the meeting and Naggie's nook, well that might be a meaning to try to avoid or miss. Yeah, because I like that much better. Because the idea that you'd go and get fired in like the shut down corner, like every time for the rest of your life when you hear the term shut down corner, it's tied to this awful moment. It would change the way you feel about the sport to some degree. It's that's terrible. But who would be like a famous NFL figure in terms of like they're almost famous for getting fired a lot, like I guess Chip Kelly rapped up a few and in short the order, it's like North Turner over the years, just because he got so many chances that we lost lost some jobs. Um. I like Naggie's nook. I think it's got some power. I think it's all right, Like I've said, this is our last show last week with two shows, we'll be back all together in the studio um starting on what have you doing Monday? Back together on Monday, Let's do it. It's back together Monday or whatever that together Monday on around the NFL training camp will be in full swing and so will we. So thank to everybody for listening and we will see you again soon. And remember Chris Westley always head the car