The Controversy Between Dilated Cardiomyopathy & Grain Free Diets

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(upbeat music) Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of the veterinary round table, the podcast where we answer your veterinary related questions while having some fun along the way.

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If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to leave us a review on your podcast provider of choice.

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And if you have any feedback to offer to improve the veterinary round table, let us know.

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- Let us know.

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- You might notice the weirdness because it's just, and there's this, like, it's gonna be a tennis match back and forth, back and forth.

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- This is a vast workout.

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- Vast like empty space.

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- Empty space.

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- Those two do carry a lot of like, weight, conversation with themselves when they come.

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- But they're small people.

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- They're small people.

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We weren't saying that they were large people.

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- No, no, no, no, no.

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- But yeah, so it's just stuck while I, yeah.

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- Which is kinda cool.

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- The lone troopers, the OG.

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- The OG.

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- The consistent ones, the consistent ones, that's right.

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Exactly.

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- Well, everyone's sleeping out there'cause we only have 45 Apple podcasts and get, you know what, I'm tired too.

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I get it.

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I love to sleep.

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It's one of my favorite things too.

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- And you know what's happening is they're listening in the car and they cannot.

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Right.

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Safety first.

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- Safety first.

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- Safety first.

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- So maybe that's a factor.

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- But like, try to do when you park your car.

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- Oh, there we go.

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I like it.

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- Like try to just say, okay, as soon as it's done, I'm hitting it.

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- Yes.

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- Okay, so I think that a lot of people listen to the podcast in the car.

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- Well, probably, isn't that where,- Don't you think that's where I listen to the podcast?

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- Where do you listen to podcasts?

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- I don't listen to podcasts.

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(laughs) So we had to fill out this like fun fact sheet for Charles's work for this thing.

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And I, number one, I couldn't think of a fun fact about myself.

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- Oh my gosh, there are tons of fun facts about you.

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- I mean, they're all like, wow.

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- I love Jack's pig thought.

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(laughs)- Hate peanut butter jelly.

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Like, no.

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So I was like, it would be hilarious if I'm like, I don't listen to podcasts, but I'm on one.

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- Did you say that?

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- But I host one.

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No, I ended up doing aquariums or scary.

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- Aquariums are kind of scary.

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- I hate them.

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- What if the water like crashes?

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- Ocean life?

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- I hate--- Is scary, you're scared of ocean life?

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- I'm terrified of under ocean life.

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- That's interesting.

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- Yeah, I hate aquariums.

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- I hate them.

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- You hate aquariums.

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- I worked at the Indianapolis,- Yeah, no.

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- Marine aquarium.

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And it was in the aquarium.

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- We wouldn't have been friends in that.

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- I wouldn't have been friends.

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I couldn't have convinced you to come.

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- I wouldn't have been able to hang out with you.

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- That's so interesting.

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So you put that.

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I think the podcast one would have been amazing.

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- I know, I thought so too, but like, then I was like, does that make me look like a hypocrite?

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- Hmm.

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- And it still might.

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Listeners might think I'm a hypocrite, but I don't mind starring in one.

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I don't mind hosting one, starring like I'm a star.

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I'm not that commodity.

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- You are a star.

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- But I just can't listen to people talk.

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It makes me sleepy and yeah, it depends.

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Like I, I don't mind, I've gotten used to listening to podcasts.

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- Yeah.

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- So I have a couple that I really like, but it's not every day thing.

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- Sure.

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- Because there's so many behavior.

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- There's so many things going on.

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Like I don't, you, to actually, I think what it is, to actually like listen, I have to pay attention.

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- Yeah.

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- Like if I'm gonna pay attention, then I'm in the car like where I am doing nothing else, right? - Yep.

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- And I can pay attention.

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But if I'm like around my house doing stuff, like then I don't hear, I'm listening, but not listening.

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- Yeah.

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- Yeah.

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- And I don't have that much time where I'm doing that activity of listening, not listening.

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- Makes sense?

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See, I prefer music, I love music.

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- Oh, so do I.

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- And or silence.

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I really like silence too sometimes.

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So. - Yeah.

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- No.

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I don't know.

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Maybe I'll try to like, positive reinforce podcasts for myself and like, listen, listen and have a treat at the same time.

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Okay.

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(laughs)- Food and.

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- Yeah. - Attach it to-- But I do have this review, ratings and reviews that I was just given.

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It's what's that called?

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Emergence, no, not in emergency.

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What's on the news when it's like breaking news?

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- Oh, breaking news.

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- Breaking news.

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- Yes.

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- Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do.

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- Okay.

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Okay, here we go.

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- Okay.

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- This is from Trinity, Kisee.

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- Ooh, nice.

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- Hopefully I spelled that right, five out of five.

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- Oh, that's awesome.

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- Okay.

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Hello, my name is Trinity.

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Hello.

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I'm obsessed with your podcast.

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I love everything to do with veterinary medicine.

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The information you all share in this podcast helps me learn so much.

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I'm currently in undergrad getting a bachelor degree in wildlife sustainability and ecosystem studies with a concentration in Pre-Vet.

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I hope to one day become a zoo veterinarian.

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- Ooh.

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- I was curious how y'all studied in the undergrad and veterinary school.

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I don't do well with lectures, so it is hard for me to retain the information.

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I also work full time as a veterinary surgical technician.

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I am looking for a good way to study so I can remember information for tests.

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Thank you in advancing.

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Keep up the amazing work y'all are doing on this podcast.

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- Oh, that's so nice.

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- With a hard emoji.

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- With a hard emoji too.

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That's really cool.

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- Thanks for the review.

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And-- And the question.

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- A cared question.

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I mean, first of all, shout out to students.

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This is amazing because we were talking about this duck wall came to this realization before me, but I don't know why I didn't figure this out.

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But it seems like we really hit it off with students or people learning in the profession, which I guess when I look back on it, as far as what we talk about, it makes sense.

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- Yeah, that's awesome.

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- Because I think we walk people through thought processes and things like that or our thought processes.

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So that is so cool.

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- Yeah.

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And I feel like as an adult when you do it every day, you don't really need to go home and listen to it.

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That is so true.

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I don't listen to any veterinary podcast.

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When I was talking about the podcast, I listened to their not related to veterinary medicine.

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- Or the TV shows that are out there.

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Sometimes if there's nothing else on, I'll be like, I wonder how they do their practice.

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They've got a curiosity and stuff, but you have to have separation too.

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But we try to mix it up, make it fun, not just be all about like that med.

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- Yeah.

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- Okay, so she had a quick question.

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We should answer it.

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- Yeah, let's answer it.

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- How do you study?

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How did you study?

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- Well, I felt like I wouldn't cram, but really looking back, like I would try to like relax study, a week or a couple days in advance of a test, but really then I before I'm like close the door to the office, no, Charles don't talk to me, don't look at me.

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I'll come out for air and food for like 30 minutes and that's it.

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So I guess my method was, I was very big on colors and charts.

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I realized that if I, or separated information, some sort of chart pattern that worked for me, and then let's say it was like a certain topic within that class.

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So, I don't know, in pharmacology, there was flea and tick prevention.

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So then as I studied, I would highlight and utilize one color for that topic.

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- Okay.

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- So green or whatever I wanted to use.

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So then during the test, I would try to recall in my mind the color, so then I'd go to the chart.

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- Then you would, then you would busy yourself with all the other information.

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- Yeah, like that.

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- Yeah.

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But it's hard, I think studying in MetSchool is hard because there's so much information.

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How are you supposed to know what to focus on and whatnot to?

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Like, yeah, there's the big topics, but sometimes there's detailed questions.

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So, I mean, honestly, group studying is great or sharing study guides in case you miss something.

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I personally was more of a solo studyer.

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- Me too.

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- There were some things I did in the group, but I know what's up with the air.

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- I've got some weird allergy thing.

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Or let's be honest, I have another cold because my child goes, I was going to say that is like your life right now.

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- Yep.

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That's okay.

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- That's all I did.

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I don't know.

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- I like that idea.

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I wish I would have thought of that when I was a student.

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I'm trying to think is if you don't like listening to lecture, I mean, like, did you guys, because when we were students, like, I'm way far more removed than you from being a student, but like, we did not have digital notes.

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Like, they have for you guys, right?

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- Yeah.

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- So like, you get all the notes ahead of time?

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- Mm.

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- Mm.

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- It just depended on the class and the teacher and everything.

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- Right.

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- The lectures weren't recorded either.

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So yeah, they would maybe piece it into PowerPoints and stuff, but I couldn't study like PowerPoint.

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I couldn't do PowerPoints.

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- I mean, we basically took all written notes.

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- Yeah.

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- Everything was written notes.

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We didn't get any notes.

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- Was it hand cramp up?

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- Oh yeah.

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- Was it hand okay?

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- Oh my God.

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- But you also were learning it as you were writing it.

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- Right.

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- I don't know if you can create, I don't know, I mean, there could be possibilities like for Trinity where if you know somebody else that took the class before you, if you could get their notes, then when you're listening to the lecture, you add to the notes.

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- Yep.

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- Like, that's why I was wondering if they gave the students notes anymore or not, but.

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- Oh yeah.

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No, you definitely get notes and you even get study guides for some classes too.

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We had laptops and then you had like touch screen laptops.

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You could write your notes on the laptop next to the PowerPoint or whatever if you wanted.

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- There's so many tactics.

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- I don't know if there's any other way.

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Didn't she say she didn't want to listen to lecture?

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- Yeah, she's a hard time focusing, I think.

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So then, we've got to hear the information or read it somewhere.

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So textbooks, we had textbooks.

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- Yeah.

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- Do you guys have textbooks?

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- I mean, yeah, we had textbooks.

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We had to still get and stuff.

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- Yeah.

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- They would take that information.

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- Right.

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- I just don't know how without listening to the lecture.

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I mean, maybe you just don't put so much pressure on yourself with doing both listening and taking notes at the same time.

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Like, maybe you just literally sit and listen.

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- Yes, and listen.

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And then, as you study, you relearn it by typing things out or making charts or something like that or writing things.

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I don't think you can get away with not listening to the lecture, unfortunately.

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- That's what I was going to say is, I wonder if you could.

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Because nowadays, you guys all have phones.

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Could you even record the lecture?

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- Oh, yeah.

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- You know what I'm saying?

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And then, you could go back and then make your notes.

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You could do a score.

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You could listen to it on a faster speed.

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So then, you could just sit in front of it and just absorb it.

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Just listen to it.

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I think you'd be surprised would you actually remember when you go and then maybe even just talking about the information.

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Because I feel like there's a difference between memorizing information, but then having to verbalize and talk about it, the more you can talk about it, the more you just know it then.

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- Yeah.

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- And so then, it's so much easier to pull it back out and use it.

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- Right.

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Yeah, I know.

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At least that Purdue, there was study rooms with chalkboards and people just go start writing and talking aloud.

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They definitely, I mean, they tried to record most of the lectures for us.

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They're just, you never knew if the microphone wasn't working or the teacher is trying to like, not record it.

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Anyway, you just got to figure out.

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Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way that you can just not listen.

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You just have to figure out the best way to listen.

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Like I said, don't put too much on remembering everything they're saying and then coming back to it.

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- Yeah.

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And then I think in veterinary school, because she's still an undergraduate school in veterinary school, they're going to a lot of the problem-based.

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And I think some schools are more focused on that than others.

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So applying to schools that are focused on basically problem-based learning.

00:11:35.460 --> 00:11:40.059
So you have a, you start day one with a case and it's a cardiology case.

00:11:40.059 --> 00:11:45.820
And so you're going to end up with less lecturing and more investigative, like learning.

00:11:45.820 --> 00:11:53.740
And so that type of school, maybe a much better fit when you're applying to veterinary schools than those that are just the traditional lectures that you go to.

00:11:53.740 --> 00:11:55.379
So that's also something to consider.

00:11:55.379 --> 00:11:56.379
- Yeah.

00:11:56.379 --> 00:11:59.259
And I mean, she's a technician, surgery technician right now.

00:11:59.259 --> 00:12:01.259
- So, you see things, right?

00:12:01.259 --> 00:12:02.259
- Which is great.

00:12:02.259 --> 00:12:03.259
- Yeah.

00:12:03.259 --> 00:12:04.259
- You know stuff that you don't even know, you know?

00:12:04.259 --> 00:12:05.259
- That's right.

00:12:05.259 --> 00:12:08.019
I got to give a shout out to Julie Rosta, who listens as well.

00:12:08.019 --> 00:12:10.019
She is a student.

00:12:10.019 --> 00:12:21.019
Oh gosh, I'm not going to remember where she's at school, but her mom has been a friend forever because her, all of her children went to school with all of my children.

00:12:21.019 --> 00:12:22.019
So, yeah.

00:12:22.019 --> 00:12:23.019
Shout out.

00:12:23.019 --> 00:12:24.019
Shout out.

00:12:24.019 --> 00:12:25.019
Thank you for the support.

00:12:25.019 --> 00:12:26.019
- Yeah.

00:12:26.019 --> 00:12:27.340
- All the students out there, you guys are amazing.

00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:28.340
- You can do it.

00:12:28.340 --> 00:12:29.340
- Yes, you can do it.

00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:33.899
And if you have friends that aren't students, have them listen to us because we're funny and we're cool.

00:12:33.899 --> 00:12:34.899
- Exactly.

00:12:34.899 --> 00:12:35.899
We'll provide at least some humor.

00:12:35.899 --> 00:12:36.899
That's right.

00:12:36.899 --> 00:12:37.899
Okay.

00:12:37.899 --> 00:12:39.580
What are we on to?

00:12:39.580 --> 00:12:41.179
Case collections, right?

00:12:41.179 --> 00:12:42.179
- Are we?

00:12:42.179 --> 00:12:43.659
Well, we should say who we are.

00:12:43.659 --> 00:12:46.019
Oh, I guess we went through all of that and we didn't even say who we were.

00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:47.019
- I know.

00:12:47.019 --> 00:12:48.019
Well, welcome.

00:12:48.019 --> 00:12:49.019
- Welcome.

00:12:49.019 --> 00:12:50.019
- Happy March 12th, 2020.

00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:53.419
- Do you know that March is Women's Month?

00:12:53.419 --> 00:12:56.620
- I thought there was just one international appreciation.

00:12:56.620 --> 00:12:57.620
- I don't know.

00:12:57.620 --> 00:13:04.580
Reading in the AVMA was like, it's Women's Month and I'm thinking all those women that came before me.

00:13:04.580 --> 00:13:05.580
Yeah.

00:13:05.580 --> 00:13:06.580
Yeah.

00:13:06.580 --> 00:13:08.379
So we should have a luncheon.

00:13:08.379 --> 00:13:10.179
- Yes, a luncheon.

00:13:10.179 --> 00:13:13.259
That's what--- Every woman loves brunch.

00:13:13.259 --> 00:13:14.340
- Every woman does love brunch.

00:13:14.340 --> 00:13:15.340
That is true.

00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:16.340
I'm Dr. King.

00:13:16.340 --> 00:13:17.340
I'm Dr. Duckwell.

00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:18.340
- And there we go.

00:13:18.340 --> 00:13:19.340
- Okay.

00:13:19.340 --> 00:13:20.340
- And she's the two of us.

00:13:20.340 --> 00:13:24.179
It's the two of us, like we said, with our vast empty couch.

00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:31.460
Shout out one thing you think is doing something right or amazing in the wonderful world in Vet Med industry.

00:13:31.460 --> 00:13:33.620
- Just wonderful, wide world of veterinary medicine.

00:13:33.620 --> 00:13:36.820
What is amazing?

00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:39.500
I'm going to go really broad with innovation.

00:13:39.500 --> 00:13:40.500
- Okay.

00:13:40.500 --> 00:13:51.500
- We come up with, there are some really cool meds that have been injected into our industry over the past several years.

00:13:51.500 --> 00:13:52.500
- Yep.

00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:53.500
- Even though we're slow to get there.

00:13:53.500 --> 00:13:55.500
There's still stuff that works great.

00:13:55.500 --> 00:13:56.500
- Yep.

00:13:56.500 --> 00:13:58.100
And so, I'm going with innovation.

00:13:58.100 --> 00:14:00.100
- Yeah, I think that's great.

00:14:00.100 --> 00:14:01.100
- Okay.

00:14:01.100 --> 00:14:04.220
I think it's double edged sword for mine.

00:14:04.220 --> 00:14:05.220
- Okay.

00:14:05.220 --> 00:14:21.100
- But the human animal bond, just I think over time has changed and morphed and like people want the animals instead of kids nowadays or they treat their animals like human child, like their kids, which is it wrong.

00:14:21.100 --> 00:14:39.779
But I think the reason why I said it's a double edged sword is because sometimes it's really hard to, I don't know, at least for me, like sometimes make decisions with that emotional, weight and, or honestly, sometimes people are hard to work with because of that blinder on it.

00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:44.500
I don't know if that's right to say, but no, I think it's true.

00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:46.539
- I think it's obviously more good than bad.

00:14:46.539 --> 00:14:47.539
It's not even bad.

00:14:47.539 --> 00:14:49.299
It's just like it comes with its own challenges.

00:14:49.299 --> 00:14:50.620
- Well, you're right.

00:14:50.620 --> 00:14:56.940
I mean, you're dealing with the humans, or you know what I mean, in terms of the human animal bonds, like humans are half the equation.

00:14:56.940 --> 00:15:00.700
So they do pose a challenge for sure.

00:15:00.700 --> 00:15:06.940
- But they were put on the start to love, they love us unconditionally, they bring us joy, cuddles.

00:15:06.940 --> 00:15:07.940
- That's right.

00:15:07.940 --> 00:15:09.460
There's a lot of great things.

00:15:09.460 --> 00:15:10.460
- There's a lot of great things.

00:15:10.460 --> 00:15:11.460
- There's a lot of great things.

00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:12.460
- Decreasing anxiety.

00:15:12.460 --> 00:15:13.460
- Yeah.

00:15:13.460 --> 00:15:14.460
That's right.

00:15:14.460 --> 00:15:15.460
- And Dwarven really is.

00:15:15.460 --> 00:15:20.539
- And I love, I freaking love working animals, like working dogs, working horses, like with jobs.

00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:21.539
- Yes.

00:15:21.539 --> 00:15:22.539
- Oh my gosh.

00:15:22.539 --> 00:15:23.539
I love it.

00:15:23.539 --> 00:15:28.179
I, anytime A.K.C., agility, championship is on TV, I'm on.

00:15:28.179 --> 00:15:29.460
I'm watching it.

00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:32.460
I think that's my next life as I want to get a border call in doing agility.

00:15:32.460 --> 00:15:33.460
- And do agility.

00:15:33.460 --> 00:15:34.460
- I think it's so cool.

00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:35.460
- It is very cool.

00:15:35.460 --> 00:15:39.539
- Or when the cops bring out the dogs, bring out the dogs on the show cops.

00:15:39.539 --> 00:15:43.659
They're trying to go chase someone down or find the drugs.

00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:45.220
It's like, it's so cool.

00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:46.220
I love it.

00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:47.220
That's very cool.

00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:48.220
- I guess they have a job.

00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:50.220
- Speaking of A.K.C.

00:15:50.220 --> 00:15:51.220
- Oh.

00:15:51.220 --> 00:15:52.220
Oh.

00:15:52.220 --> 00:15:54.779
- Some daughter-in-law.

00:15:54.779 --> 00:16:00.220
And her mother actually, I think as the story goes, I can't see Harrison's face anymore.

00:16:00.220 --> 00:16:03.220
It got me this book and her mom said she's got to have it.

00:16:03.220 --> 00:16:04.220
It's orange.

00:16:04.220 --> 00:16:06.220
And I was like, I do it's orange.

00:16:06.220 --> 00:16:07.220
- It's beautiful.

00:16:07.220 --> 00:16:09.379
- And then, and so they got this for me.

00:16:09.379 --> 00:16:10.379
- It looks like fake almost.

00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:11.379
- It's, you know?

00:16:11.379 --> 00:16:12.379
- A.K.C.

00:16:12.379 --> 00:16:13.379
The complete dog book.

00:16:13.379 --> 00:16:14.379
Let me tell you.

00:16:14.379 --> 00:16:15.379
- Oh my gosh.

00:16:15.379 --> 00:16:16.379
- Let's see what year.

00:16:16.379 --> 00:16:17.379
- Let's see what year.

00:16:17.379 --> 00:16:21.379
- I think it's on the size and 82.

00:16:21.379 --> 00:16:23.379
- Ooh, that was really close.

00:16:23.379 --> 00:16:24.379
- Really?

00:16:24.379 --> 00:16:25.379
- Seven, yeah.

00:16:25.379 --> 00:16:29.980
- Oh, I initially thought of seven, but then I was like, I'm gonna open it and you tell me what dog breed by chance I'm opening two.

00:16:29.980 --> 00:16:30.980
- Okay.

00:16:30.980 --> 00:16:32.980
- You're gonna read it?

00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:33.980
- Oh no.

00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:34.980
- Okay, go.

00:16:34.980 --> 00:16:37.379
- Well, you have to give me clues.

00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:39.779
- Okay, I don't even, okay.

00:16:39.779 --> 00:16:41.379
This is 1977, remind you.

00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:42.379
- Oh no.

00:16:42.379 --> 00:16:43.379
Okay.

00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:44.379
- It's small.

00:16:44.379 --> 00:16:48.820
- It has, let's see here.

00:16:48.820 --> 00:16:54.940
It's been around for four centuries.

00:16:54.940 --> 00:16:55.940
Let's see here.

00:16:55.940 --> 00:16:57.460
What else about it?

00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:02.379
It's got long flowing coat.

00:17:02.379 --> 00:17:03.379
And...

00:17:03.379 --> 00:17:04.380
- Lossop, so.

00:17:04.380 --> 00:17:05.859
- Ooh, that's close.

00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:10.759
- I'm trying to see where you're at in the book because it looks like your past halfway more.

00:17:10.759 --> 00:17:14.920
- It's named from the chief of those northwestern islands of Scotland.

00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.240
- Oh, I love Scotland.

00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:18.240
That as...

00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:19.720
- I don't have much of this.

00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:27.359
- Norwick, Terrier, as fat back as he can be traced, formed his native home and in which was found in greatest perfection.

00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:35.480
He is the only Terrier, distinctively belonging to the northwestern islands that is not common to the whole of Scotland.

00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:45.000
Those who have the best practical knowledge of the blank of the, okay, I'll tell you this part, those who have the best practical knowledge of the sky mountain that he...

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:46.000
- Scottish Terrier.

00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:47.000
- That's close.

00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:51.680
It is start with an S. I just gave it away with the name of the mountain.

00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:52.680
- Skys?

00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:53.680
- Sky Terrier.

00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:54.839
- Oh, Sky Terrier.

00:17:54.839 --> 00:17:59.319
One of the most important breeds at the American Bent shows before the turn of the century.

00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.279
And the rivalry among the leading kennels was exceptionally keen.

00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:05.519
- So I'm assuming a black and white picture, either?

00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:06.519
- Yeah, of course.

00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:12.680
- Yeah, he's got long coat, like he looks like a combination of like a silky Terrier, a sky.

00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:13.680
- Oh, yes.

00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:14.680
- A sky, yes.

00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:21.359
- Well, that's just another clue that I need to go see Scotland because I want to go so badly.

00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:22.359
- Okay.

00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:23.359
- You would have thought.

00:18:23.359 --> 00:18:24.359
- Okay.

00:18:24.359 --> 00:18:25.359
- Love it.

00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:26.359
Case collections.

00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:27.359
- Oh, yeah.

00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:28.359
Let's talk about this because this is...

00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:29.359
- Yeah.

00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:30.359
- I love this case.

00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:31.359
- So we have a joint case.

00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:32.359
His name is Toby.

00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:47.359
He's a four-year-old, neutered male domestic short hair, whom I saw on Thursday, no, Wednesday of last week for an acute urethral obstruction.

00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.559
Okay, he was blocked and he could not urinate.

00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:59.119
So the history was for about two days, he was eating lethargic, hiding, and then there was vocalization.

00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.920
They haven't seen urine.

00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:07.759
He had a history of bladder, sorry, urinary issues, I guess, back in December, but he wasn't completely blocked.

00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:08.759
- Okay.

00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:13.880
- So, yeah, here we are, initial exam.

00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.279
I just go straight to the belly when they're active like that.

00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:21.839
He was so uncomfortable any time he moved and his bladder was ginormous.

00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:27.000
Like, I mean, he's a bigger cat, but like, is that like a canelo?

00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.000
- Okay.

00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:30.200
- Or maybe that's too big for a canelo, or too small?

00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:36.119
- No, no, I mean, huge rock hard, painful, classic.

00:19:36.119 --> 00:19:39.359
So it's pretty emergent because you don't know how long they've been blocked.

00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:42.119
They don't, you don't know how long the kidneys have been backed up.

00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:54.000
So in our protocol, we just essentially start to try to get initiate treatment by at least giving pain meds on board while we kind of go through it with owner and expectations and stuff.

00:19:54.000 --> 00:20:01.559
So she approved on blocking him, which consisted of us, the pain med made him sleepy, but you still need more on top of that.

00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:12.920
So we put placed an IV catheter and then we gave propylfall, which is an acidation induction med to basically put them in a more unconscious state.

00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:21.440
And so, depending on how long it takes to relieve the obstruction in the urethra, you may remain a hot to translate over to gas and anesthesia, which we did.

00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:24.079
We had to intubate and put them on gas for safety.

00:20:24.079 --> 00:20:27.000
- Did you guys try that coxidial block at all?

00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:28.000
- So, no.

00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:32.480
But they say it's so easy, but I find it really hard.

00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:35.039
- Well, I did on one before.

00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:44.599
And I felt his space and I feel like I probably could have, but she was financially conscious and so I didn't want to knowing I was going to have to do other things anyway.

00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:46.759
I didn't want to do that.

00:20:46.759 --> 00:20:50.480
So it was a tough one to unblock.

00:20:50.480 --> 00:21:06.039
So we had to do multiple positions and what you do is you get various types of urinary catheters to see what will pass through and then simultaneously someone is pulsing fluid through the urethra because, yeah, there's something lodged there.

00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:07.440
- You kind of blow it up like a balloon.

00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:08.440
- Yeah, exactly.

00:21:08.440 --> 00:21:11.039
- Like on each end so that it might work.

00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:12.039
- Yeah, the pressure.

00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.079
- And then it relieves the big pressure.

00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:19.440
- So, had multiple doctors hands on to try to get it done.

00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:32.240
We did scan his urinary bladder to look for his or stones as their sludge and his was at the time mostly, consists of sludge, just floating, could be blood, could be mucus, whatever.

00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:37.519
Finally got him unblocked, kept the urinary catheter in overnight.

00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:39.839
Blood work is also an important thing and also there.

00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.519
- That's what I was going to ask was how bad was it, where is kidneys?

00:21:42.519 --> 00:21:44.519
- Kidneys were really not that bad.

00:21:44.519 --> 00:21:52.240
His creatinine was 2.7, his BUN was 40, so it wasn't terrible, but they can get really bad quit.

00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:53.240
- What was his potassium?

00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:54.240
- Remember, it's normal, I think.

00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:55.240
- Oh, that's good.

00:21:55.240 --> 00:21:56.240
- Yeah.

00:21:56.240 --> 00:22:02.920
You worry when the potassium gets too high that can create a heart arrhythmia, which then can put them in dire danger.

00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:03.920
- Right, very risky.

00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:04.920
- Yeah.

00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.319
- But his ECG was fine, his heart rate and all that.

00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:12.079
So, that's where the story started.

00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:13.079
Not ended.

00:22:13.079 --> 00:22:15.240
- That's right, exactly.

00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:23.559
- The biggest thing with blocked cats, especially with his history is if you did not pursue getting, like, doing a sistotomy.

00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:28.079
So, going into the bladder, removing all that crud, the risk is extremely high.

00:22:28.079 --> 00:22:30.799
He will just re-block within 24 hours.

00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:44.640
This owner being just financially constrained and obviously concerned actually prompted me on other surgery or other options, I should say, other than just cleaning up the bladder.

00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:45.640
- Right.

00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:50.519
- So, I don't know if you want to kind of go into what a PU is and why we do it and stuff like that.

00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:51.519
- Sure.

00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:53.880
So, you guys did the sistotomy.

00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:54.880
- Yep.

00:22:54.880 --> 00:23:02.160
- And at the same time, since she had asked about, "Hey, is there a way to potentially try and prevent?" That's a strong word, you know?

00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:04.440
But for the most part, prevent future episodes.

00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.599
- She put, is there anything permanent we can do?

00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:08.119
- Permanent we can do, yeah.

00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:13.980
So, then, then, Duc will talk about doing a perineal erythrostomy, which is, we shorten that because we don't like to say that.

00:23:13.980 --> 00:23:15.960
I wanted to call it a PU.

00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:17.920
So, and we don't do those very lightly.

00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:23.960
That's, it's a very barbaric, invasive, yep.

00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:24.960
Can't go back.

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:25.960
- Yep.

00:23:25.960 --> 00:23:26.960
- Surgery.

00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:37.160
- And so, but what it does, so in the male cat there, your erythro is so tiny that things get clogged and they're so easily and it doesn't even, it's like sand and debris sometimes.

00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:43.799
I mean, his was like a, like, the smallest grains of sand, but all just like a sand paste in there, right?

00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:44.799
- Yeah.

00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:45.799
- And do like a tube.

00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:46.799
- Yeah.

00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:48.759
- And try to ram it into the sandy beach, right?

00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:52.279
And then you pick the straw up and it would be just everywhere.

00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:53.279
- Yeah.

00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:55.279
All caked into the middle of the straw.

00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:56.279
- Yep.

00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:58.880
- And that's really hard to dislodge when that happens.

00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:05.920
And because they are considered a true emergency in veterinary medicine, it's something that we try and like you were mentioning attack quickly.

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:14.160
So, I think the PU was the, the right thing to do for this particular cat because he had already had one previous episode.

00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:16.640
And whenever I'm working on these guys, that's it, right?

00:24:16.640 --> 00:24:20.519
Like if I'm at the second episode, that's usually when I start talking about that.

00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:25.240
Certainly by the third episode because now at this point, you've paid for a PU.

00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:28.440
Like between the first and the second episode, you know, you're at the third episode.

00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:29.440
So.

00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:30.440
- Yeah.

00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:34.240
- And so basically what that is is we widen the erythra.

00:24:34.240 --> 00:24:47.519
So we pull the, we do a dissection around the pre-puse of the cat and then pull it all the way through and dissect it up into the pelvic canal because further up into the pelvic canal, the erythra is wider.

00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:57.559
So we amputate the penis and pull that erythra all the way through and tack it down so that you have a wider area for the cat to pee through basically.

00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:01.960
And so then the hope is that because we don't see this problem in female cats.

00:25:01.960 --> 00:25:05.799
So then the thought is, okay, well now we can prevent this from happening.

00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:10.319
The one thing I will say about the surgery is you have to do it the right way.

00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:11.799
You cannot take a shortcut.

00:25:11.799 --> 00:25:18.720
You cannot chicken out and when you get into the pelvic canal, not pull the erythra far enough forward.

00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:22.519
If you do that, you are basically, it's a death sentence for the cat.

00:25:22.519 --> 00:25:36.160
So it's not something that you should attempt to do without practicing on cadavers without somebody also helping you to learn how to do it because you will want to stab your eyes out.

00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:37.160
Yeah.

00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:39.160
Because you'll be like, I can't, I can't go any further up into the pelvic canal.

00:25:39.160 --> 00:25:40.160
I just can't.

00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:42.160
There's something I'm going to do something bad.

00:25:42.160 --> 00:25:43.720
I'm going to, but you have to.

00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.759
You cannot not do it.

00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:47.759
Yeah.

00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:48.759
Because it's pointless.

00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:49.759
It's pointless.

00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:50.759
Yeah.

00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.759
So, and, but it's an, it's an extensive surgery.

00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:57.359
It's an invasive surgery and it does come with its own set of complications.

00:25:57.359 --> 00:25:58.359
Right.

00:25:58.359 --> 00:26:00.400
So you're not out of the woods, post-op, right?

00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:15.920
You still have two weeks of normal healing in general, but then you also have this residual pain that the cat was going through, inflammation, spasming of the muscles in their urethra, which can make the opening small or difficult to pee.

00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.039
And then the biggest complication of the surgery is a structure.

00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:20.039
Yeah.

00:26:20.039 --> 00:26:29.319
So what happens is essentially that opening, I guess, gets small, still because of scar tissue and inflammation.

00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:32.359
So Toby underwent both the procedures.

00:26:32.359 --> 00:26:40.240
He actually had the PU first and then I went in, Dr. Cloud did the PU and then I did the sysautomy.

00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:49.039
So it was at that point, I was, you know, putting urinary catheters into flush the bladder, flush all the crud out.

00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:55.480
So we just kind of kept them at time zero and I guess cleaned everything out to start a new.

00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:58.480
He did pee the next morning, which was amazing.

00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.640
I literally was jumping up and down and it was a Friday.

00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:09.960
So we set him home because cats can be weird in hospital where they don't want to pee, they don't want to eat, they're scared.

00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:23.119
And over the weekend he was peeing some, he was eating and we just, you know, you kind of hold your breath for 10 to 12, 14 days because you just, unfortunately, you're just not in the clear.

00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:24.119
Right.

00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:31.279
He did come back in yesterday because he had slowed down on his peeing, didn't really want to eat much, seemed uncomfortable.

00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:39.079
So both Dr. Cloud and I evaluated him and he, we gave more pain meds because one of them had worn off at that point.

00:27:39.079 --> 00:27:54.220
So we are wondering if he was just uncomfortable and then Dr. Cloud ended up giving him some gas anesthesia to relax him and she was able to release a steady normal stream from his bladder, but we did that because his bladder was pretty full.

00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:57.700
Like he had not peed and can't, we can't go through the same.

00:27:57.700 --> 00:28:01.740
He's blocked essentially not peeing and everything.

00:28:01.740 --> 00:28:17.380
So we re did his medications, his pain meds and realized that the litter, the type of litter may have been a factor for him and then sent him home and just got an update that he's still not acting quite like himself.

00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:24.660
But we're just going to hope that especially being at the home with the owner, he relaxes and starts peeing.

00:28:24.660 --> 00:28:28.779
Then we added presence and so to relax is your re-thra.

00:28:28.779 --> 00:28:42.099
If his bladder was that distended, I mean he could have nerve damage to his bladder, I suppose, as a possibility, but with the values that low, this kidney values that low, I'd put it lower on the, you know what I mean?

00:28:42.099 --> 00:28:45.339
It seems like he wasn't distended for some extended period of time.

00:28:45.339 --> 00:28:53.819
So if a cat stays, if their bladder stays stretched for an extended period of time, then they end up with neurologic diseases, what we're talking about.

00:28:53.819 --> 00:29:01.380
So of their bladder, not of their body, but then they can't, their bladder doesn't operate normally, doesn't can release.

00:29:01.380 --> 00:29:02.380
Yeah, it can't contract down.

00:29:02.380 --> 00:29:05.660
His bladder was very angry, very thick.

00:29:05.660 --> 00:29:13.299
It wasn't as red as I was expecting her bruise, but as I just even gently had to manipulate it, it became more and more angry.

00:29:13.299 --> 00:29:15.299
So, yeah.

00:29:15.299 --> 00:29:16.299
He has crossed.

00:29:16.299 --> 00:29:18.420
I think he just needs a little bit more time, right?

00:29:18.420 --> 00:29:19.779
Especially since his urine stream.

00:29:19.779 --> 00:29:21.740
And the drain board looked amazing yesterday.

00:29:21.740 --> 00:29:24.420
I mean, the whole surgery site looked fantastic.

00:29:24.420 --> 00:29:25.420
Yeah.

00:29:25.420 --> 00:29:30.180
So I, yeah, and we were able to, she was able to pass a catheter earlier in the day.

00:29:30.180 --> 00:29:34.460
I mean, it's just a function of time, I think, and getting him more functional in the bladder.

00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:35.460
And function of the bladder.

00:29:35.460 --> 00:29:37.660
I mean, that's the other thing we have to consider.

00:29:37.660 --> 00:29:39.660
So, I think it's important.

00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:44.019
Yeah, I think it's important to know that you don't have to do a pu surgery for cat because it gets blocked.

00:29:44.019 --> 00:29:45.019
Correct.

00:29:45.019 --> 00:29:48.259
So, let's say in this cat scenario, there was debris.

00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:50.900
He was a stressed out cat.

00:29:50.900 --> 00:29:53.380
Diet is like the mainstay treatment or prevention.

00:29:53.380 --> 00:29:59.339
So it dissolves and keeps, dissolves any crystals, stones, whatever clutter can get in there.

00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:03.140
It helps the cat drink more water and flush out a system more.

00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:12.900
If the cat is also having these issues due to anxiety and stress, which he was also, you put them on pro-zac and he was on it.

00:30:12.900 --> 00:30:18.339
But unfortunately, it just kind of depends on the cat as well, but you don't have to jump into a pu.

00:30:18.339 --> 00:30:20.339
Usually though, you still need to have a systolic.

00:30:20.339 --> 00:30:21.339
So, we go in the bladder.

00:30:21.339 --> 00:30:23.539
Just they'll just get re-blocked exactly as well.

00:30:23.539 --> 00:30:24.539
Yeah, okay.

00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:25.539
Okay.

00:30:25.539 --> 00:30:26.539
Well, fingers crossed.

00:30:26.539 --> 00:30:27.539
Tobi.

00:30:27.539 --> 00:30:33.539
We'll give it Tobi update in the next podcast because we'll be out 10 to 14 days at that point.

00:30:33.539 --> 00:30:34.539
Yep.

00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:35.539
So, yeah.

00:30:35.539 --> 00:30:36.539
Go, Tobi.

00:30:36.539 --> 00:30:37.539
Go.

00:30:37.539 --> 00:30:38.539
Send good vibes towards Tobi.

00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:39.539
That's right.

00:30:39.539 --> 00:30:40.539
Exactly.

00:30:40.539 --> 00:30:41.539
His bladder.

00:30:41.539 --> 00:30:42.539
His bladder.

00:30:42.539 --> 00:30:43.539
That's a very cool case.

00:30:43.539 --> 00:30:44.539
I love that case.

00:30:44.539 --> 00:30:50.819
It's got so much great information as far as things that we deal with and manage and everything.

00:30:50.819 --> 00:30:51.819
Okay.

00:30:51.819 --> 00:30:52.819
Where we on?

00:30:52.819 --> 00:30:53.819
Listener questions.

00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:54.819
Okay.

00:30:54.819 --> 00:30:55.819
Hey, I love you guys.

00:30:55.819 --> 00:30:56.819
Thanks for your time.

00:30:56.819 --> 00:31:04.619
I am seeing only one side of the dog world talking about DCM and grain-free diets.

00:31:04.619 --> 00:31:06.420
None of them are practicing vets.

00:31:06.420 --> 00:31:08.740
I would love to hear your perspective.

00:31:08.740 --> 00:31:09.740
Kyle Gilliam.

00:31:09.740 --> 00:31:10.740
Okay.

00:31:10.740 --> 00:31:11.740
Cool.

00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:12.500
Thanks, Kyle.

00:31:12.500 --> 00:31:13.500
Yeah.

00:31:13.500 --> 00:31:14.500
There's been a lot.

00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:19.700
Well, gosh, now, because we were doing some digging to see if anything had changed.

00:31:19.700 --> 00:31:20.700
That was 20.

00:31:20.700 --> 00:31:21.700
Would we say 18?

00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:22.700
Yeah.

00:31:22.700 --> 00:31:23.700
2018 when all that went down.

00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:24.700
That was five years ago.

00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:26.500
This COVID was like six years ago.

00:31:26.500 --> 00:31:27.500
Right?

00:31:27.500 --> 00:31:28.500
Yeah.

00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:29.500
20.

00:31:29.500 --> 00:31:30.500
Sorry.

00:31:30.500 --> 00:31:31.500
I can't you see it.

00:31:31.500 --> 00:31:32.500
It's a time warp with COVID.

00:31:32.500 --> 00:31:33.500
Okay.

00:31:33.500 --> 00:31:36.940
So, yeah, five, six years ago when all that came out.

00:31:36.940 --> 00:31:37.940
Yeah.

00:31:37.940 --> 00:31:40.059
It started with a study of Golden Retrievers.

00:31:40.059 --> 00:31:45.259
And essentially, I'm not sure how this, if it was like, hey, we're finding this.

00:31:45.259 --> 00:31:46.259
Let's do a study on it.

00:31:46.259 --> 00:31:49.220
I think it was one breeder, wasn't it?

00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:50.220
Oh.

00:31:50.220 --> 00:31:52.980
It was like a set of Golden Retrievers where they were getting DCM.

00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:53.980
DCM.

00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:54.980
Well, we should back up.

00:31:54.980 --> 00:31:55.980
Okay.

00:31:55.980 --> 00:31:56.980
Okay.

00:31:56.980 --> 00:31:57.980
Yeah.

00:31:57.980 --> 00:31:58.980
Good point.

00:31:58.980 --> 00:31:59.980
Dialated cardiomyopathy.

00:31:59.980 --> 00:32:00.980
Yes.

00:32:00.980 --> 00:32:05.700
It's a heart disease where your, basically, your heart gets gigantic and the muscle sits out and then they can't, but a little, little, little, little, little, little.

00:32:05.700 --> 00:32:06.700
Yep.

00:32:06.700 --> 00:32:09.859
Can't pump blood, the right, like, forward in enough forward force.

00:32:09.859 --> 00:32:10.859
Yes.

00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:13.259
To supply you with life, life.

00:32:13.259 --> 00:32:14.259
Yes.

00:32:14.259 --> 00:32:16.460
So yeah, it's our poster child breed.

00:32:16.460 --> 00:32:19.980
A boxer, a doverman.

00:32:19.980 --> 00:32:20.980
Yeah.

00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:23.980
That's why I was thinking of doverman, but those are probably the two most common.

00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:24.980
Yeah.

00:32:24.980 --> 00:32:25.980
But you think?

00:32:25.980 --> 00:32:28.339
Yeah, I would think so, for sure.

00:32:28.339 --> 00:32:29.339
Those are really the two.

00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:31.339
Those are great days.

00:32:31.339 --> 00:32:32.339
Okay.

00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:33.339
Yeah.

00:32:33.339 --> 00:32:34.339
Okay.

00:32:34.339 --> 00:32:35.339
Yeah.

00:32:35.339 --> 00:32:36.339
Archer Spaniels.

00:32:36.339 --> 00:32:38.940
I don't feel like they have like, no, you're right.

00:32:38.940 --> 00:32:43.019
I remember, I could picture on a slide show.

00:32:43.019 --> 00:32:45.019
A car, okay.

00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:46.019
There we go.

00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:47.779
Pull that from the depths of whatever.

00:32:47.779 --> 00:32:48.779
Okay.

00:32:48.779 --> 00:32:50.819
So those are the breeds that we most commonly see it in.

00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:51.819
Primary.

00:32:51.819 --> 00:32:52.819
Yeah.

00:32:52.819 --> 00:32:57.259
So you can see when these people started showing up with gold retrievers, yeah, with dilated cardiomyopathy.

00:32:57.259 --> 00:32:58.259
I should be in the DCM.

00:32:58.259 --> 00:33:00.579
That's what we call DCM, like we call it PU.

00:33:00.579 --> 00:33:01.579
Yep.

00:33:01.579 --> 00:33:02.579
DCM.

00:33:02.579 --> 00:33:03.579
It's like, what?

00:33:03.579 --> 00:33:04.579
Yeah.

00:33:04.579 --> 00:33:05.900
Because gold is to have enough of their own issues.

00:33:05.900 --> 00:33:06.900
They don't need another one.

00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:08.380
They're the poster child for lymphoma.

00:33:08.380 --> 00:33:12.259
So, or just, or just kids.

00:33:12.259 --> 00:33:13.259
Yes.

00:33:13.259 --> 00:33:14.259
Okay.

00:33:14.259 --> 00:33:15.259
So, yeah.

00:33:15.259 --> 00:33:16.259
Yeah.

00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:17.259
Then they were like, what's going on?

00:33:17.259 --> 00:33:18.259
This is not normal.

00:33:18.259 --> 00:33:25.619
So, longs or short, they got to the diet and the grain-free diet or the lagoon-based boutique diets.

00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:27.740
So, yeah.

00:33:27.740 --> 00:33:29.940
And then they realized, okay.

00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:32.339
So here's the other caveat.

00:33:32.339 --> 00:33:42.380
They're still not a single consensus from cardiologist as far as the metabolism or what is paired with the grain-free, created this disease.

00:33:42.380 --> 00:33:43.380
Correct.

00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:50.859
So, the thought, the couple of the thoughts were atorine deficiency.

00:33:50.859 --> 00:33:53.700
And that is important for the heart and the heart muscle health.

00:33:53.700 --> 00:33:55.859
Oh, thing, and I got logged out.

00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:56.859
Okay.

00:33:56.859 --> 00:34:09.139
And I think that they, what they did was they saw that, okay, these dogs on these specific diets that aren't breeds typically known to have dilated cardiomyopathy are showing up a dilated cardiomyopathy.

00:34:09.139 --> 00:34:10.139
Why is that?

00:34:10.139 --> 00:34:11.139
Okay.

00:34:11.139 --> 00:34:13.980
Well, they substituted beans for meat.

00:34:13.980 --> 00:34:16.579
And so, they and other things.

00:34:16.579 --> 00:34:22.739
So that was one tie that they had was, oh, now these dogs, some of them are tarring deficient.

00:34:22.739 --> 00:34:26.900
But some of them weren't tarring deficient, but still had dilated cardiomyopathy.

00:34:26.900 --> 00:34:27.900
Yes.

00:34:27.900 --> 00:34:34.139
So, I think that there's, and the, the congospanials are the ones that are tarring, have like can have the tarring deficiency, I think.

00:34:34.139 --> 00:34:35.139
But, yeah.

00:34:35.139 --> 00:34:41.500
I think they're like, well, then why do these, why do these breeds, they're like, well, these that don't normally get it are getting it with this diet, with these boutique diets?

00:34:41.500 --> 00:34:42.500
Yes.

00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:48.820
And I think that's where you were going with like, we don't know, there may be some other ingredient in the diet that we don't know about that is causing the effect.

00:34:48.820 --> 00:34:49.820
Yep.

00:34:49.820 --> 00:34:55.139
Is what they were thinking as well as is there a genetic component for some of these guys that again, we don't know about.

00:34:55.139 --> 00:34:56.139
Yeah.

00:34:56.139 --> 00:34:57.139
So, yeah.

00:34:57.139 --> 00:35:03.340
It says, so we use VIN a lot, basically our research portal for information, information.

00:35:03.340 --> 00:35:05.019
It's veterinary information network.

00:35:05.019 --> 00:35:06.019
Is it, look at that.

00:35:06.019 --> 00:35:07.019
Yes.

00:35:07.019 --> 00:35:09.019
Pull that out of my arse.

00:35:09.019 --> 00:35:10.019
Okay.

00:35:10.019 --> 00:35:11.019
So, yeah.

00:35:11.019 --> 00:35:23.099
It says, basically in regards to the food that initially it was suspected to rise from tarring deficiency because many dogs initially reported, we're golden retrievers, which is the breed with tarring metabolism abnormalities.

00:35:23.099 --> 00:35:24.099
Yes.

00:35:24.099 --> 00:35:28.900
However, many affected dogs have normal whole blood and serum tarring levels.

00:35:28.900 --> 00:35:33.260
So, and like measuring the tarring wasn't always accurate.

00:35:33.260 --> 00:35:39.539
And then in another study, plasma, methionine was lower in normal dogs, fed grain-free diets.

00:35:39.539 --> 00:35:40.539
So it's unclear.

00:35:40.539 --> 00:35:41.539
It's unclear.

00:35:41.539 --> 00:35:43.739
I guess the, the, the consensus is it's unclear.

00:35:43.739 --> 00:35:44.739
Yeah.

00:35:44.739 --> 00:35:45.739
No one has decided anything.

00:35:45.739 --> 00:35:46.739
Yes.

00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:52.019
But they have advised us in terms of, okay, you have a dog that has dilated cartomap.

00:35:52.019 --> 00:35:53.460
They, what do you do?

00:35:53.460 --> 00:35:55.219
So then as far as food.

00:35:55.219 --> 00:35:56.219
Right.

00:35:56.219 --> 00:36:03.420
So they say, okay, if you have DCM, your dog has DCM and it's on grain free, take them off it.

00:36:03.420 --> 00:36:04.420
Take them off it.

00:36:04.420 --> 00:36:05.420
Right.

00:36:05.420 --> 00:36:13.699
Well, I mean, here's the thing though, if they've been on grain free and they get DCM, you then just treat it as a dog that has primary DCM, right?

00:36:13.699 --> 00:36:16.860
So there's no unfortunate like reverse, where there's no reverse.

00:36:16.860 --> 00:36:17.860
Yeah.

00:36:17.860 --> 00:36:18.860
Yeah.

00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:30.099
So we've kind of adopted the philosophy that we just don't recommend grain free because they don't, they can't tell us the time line of, if your dog's on it for this long, you're going to get it or this short of time or something.

00:36:30.099 --> 00:36:32.179
And people are like, well, can I just supplement twering?

00:36:32.179 --> 00:36:36.820
And that was an initial thought too, but you have to do touring levels, right?

00:36:36.820 --> 00:36:41.219
And then in some of these patients, like we were talking, they're not touring deficient, right?

00:36:41.219 --> 00:36:45.860
So then you're still feeding something that could potentially have a toxic and greeniant exactly.

00:36:45.860 --> 00:36:53.659
That, so that's what, yeah, I think why we all decided as a group like, let's just make the recommendation that we don't feed it because there's a gazillion other things out there you can feed exactly.

00:36:53.659 --> 00:36:54.659
Exactly.

00:36:54.659 --> 00:36:59.699
So that's where I think it's kind of, why do you think grain got such a bad rap?

00:36:59.699 --> 00:37:00.699
Is it because of people?

00:37:00.699 --> 00:37:07.059
No, I think people being like the whole crones and like, let's get out glued and not do what are they called for?

00:37:07.059 --> 00:37:12.460
And like, they kind of, yeah, and then they trickle that down to because people are doing that.

00:37:12.460 --> 00:37:13.460
And they want their pets to do that.

00:37:13.460 --> 00:37:19.460
Well, wasn't it also the thought that grains were the problem for like itchy scallogies, which is totally not the thing, which is not true either.

00:37:19.460 --> 00:37:22.260
It's actually more so the protein involved.

00:37:22.260 --> 00:37:25.940
So it's not wrong to assume your dog may have a chicken allergy.

00:37:25.940 --> 00:37:30.059
It's more appropriate to say that, even though it might not be chicken, then it's the grain, right?

00:37:30.059 --> 00:37:31.059
Period.

00:37:31.059 --> 00:37:32.059
Yeah.

00:37:32.059 --> 00:37:41.460
So, if it longs or short, if they develop DCM regardless of the reason, prognosis isn't great.

00:37:41.460 --> 00:37:42.460
It's not good less than a year.

00:37:42.460 --> 00:37:43.460
Yep.

00:37:43.460 --> 00:37:48.420
And that's because that muscle stretches and then once it stretches, you can't go back it because it just is not contracting.

00:37:48.420 --> 00:37:50.500
So it's sitting there just wiggling.

00:37:50.500 --> 00:37:53.139
You cannot make it pump like it's normally supposed to.

00:37:53.139 --> 00:37:54.139
Yeah.

00:37:54.139 --> 00:37:56.139
I mean, and so it's really unfortunate.

00:37:56.139 --> 00:37:57.139
Yeah.

00:37:57.139 --> 00:38:00.980
I have a higher risk of acute death.

00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:03.500
So try not to beat around the bush here.

00:38:03.500 --> 00:38:06.099
It's just better all around.

00:38:06.099 --> 00:38:07.900
Just don't go near the grain free.

00:38:07.900 --> 00:38:08.900
It's just not worth it.

00:38:08.900 --> 00:38:09.900
Yes.

00:38:09.900 --> 00:38:10.900
Yeah.

00:38:10.900 --> 00:38:13.139
Until we know more, until we know more, which eventually we will.

00:38:13.139 --> 00:38:22.820
I'm sure at some point they'll, because I can't imagine that those companies that are selling grain free aren't looking into it because they're not in the business of killing animals.

00:38:22.820 --> 00:38:30.179
So they want their diets to fulfill those requirements that those dogs live long, long lives, right?

00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:32.780
The longer you live, the more food you buy.

00:38:32.780 --> 00:38:33.780
Yep.

00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:37.460
So they're not in the business of creating diets that injure pets.

00:38:37.460 --> 00:38:38.460
That's not.

00:38:38.460 --> 00:38:39.460
Yeah.

00:38:39.460 --> 00:38:44.659
And we see tons of nutritionists in these corporations or companies that are selling food.

00:38:44.659 --> 00:38:48.699
I mean, there are veterinary board certified nutritionists working with these companies.

00:38:48.699 --> 00:38:49.699
Yep.

00:38:49.699 --> 00:38:52.739
You know, I always giggle when people are like, yeah, that food kills them.

00:38:52.739 --> 00:38:56.139
That's like, no, that's not what they're, that's just not good business practice.

00:38:56.139 --> 00:38:57.139
Right.

00:38:57.139 --> 00:38:58.139
No, it doesn't make sense.

00:38:58.139 --> 00:38:59.139
Yeah.

00:38:59.139 --> 00:39:00.139
No.

00:39:00.139 --> 00:39:02.579
But yeah, I think we'll get more information over time.

00:39:02.579 --> 00:39:03.579
Hopefully.

00:39:03.579 --> 00:39:04.579
Yeah.

00:39:04.579 --> 00:39:09.139
I mean, honestly, in the green scheme of, I don't know, science and studies six years isn't that long.

00:39:09.139 --> 00:39:13.179
So as far as like creating the, creating it, yeah, exactly.

00:39:13.179 --> 00:39:14.179
So agree.

00:39:14.179 --> 00:39:15.179
Yeah.

00:39:15.179 --> 00:39:16.179
I mean, great question.

00:39:16.179 --> 00:39:17.179
Great question.

00:39:17.179 --> 00:39:18.179
Hopefully.

00:39:18.179 --> 00:39:19.179
Yeah.

00:39:19.179 --> 00:39:20.179
Hopefully.

00:39:20.179 --> 00:39:21.179
Yeah.

00:39:21.179 --> 00:39:22.179
Hopefully.

00:39:22.179 --> 00:39:23.179
The long of the short.

00:39:23.179 --> 00:39:24.179
Don't put, yeah, okay.

00:39:24.179 --> 00:39:25.179
The don't.

00:39:25.179 --> 00:39:26.179
Oh gosh.

00:39:26.179 --> 00:39:27.179
Okay.

00:39:27.179 --> 00:39:28.179
Cool.

00:39:28.179 --> 00:39:30.179
You want to do that?

00:39:30.179 --> 00:39:31.179
Sure.

00:39:31.179 --> 00:39:32.179
Okay.

00:39:32.179 --> 00:39:33.179
I can find it.

00:39:33.179 --> 00:39:34.179
Hold on.

00:39:34.179 --> 00:39:35.179
I know how my glasses are.

00:39:35.179 --> 00:39:37.780
I know this is really, yeah, treacherous.

00:39:37.780 --> 00:39:40.739
Thank you so much for tuning into another episode of the veterinary roundtable.

00:39:40.739 --> 00:39:45.179
Remember sending those questions and leave us a review if you enjoyed this episode or a previous one.

00:39:45.179 --> 00:39:48.019
We'll see you next time for another episode of the veterinary roundtable.

00:39:48.019 --> 00:39:49.019
See you.

00:39:49.019 --> 00:39:50.019
Bye bye.

00:39:50.019 --> 00:39:54.840
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