Poetic Justice with Propaganda

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello, and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we talk about UH movies from an intersectional feminist lens. Caitlin, do you have a poem prepared for today? Is there any anything you'd like to share with the class? Here's the thing I did. Used to write poetry because I was once a teenager and and uh, actually this is something that probably you, Jamie don't know this about me, nor does really anyone. There was a time where in my comedy career, I was like, what if I start writing comedy poetry and that's on to something and that's what people know me as like I'm the poetry comedian because I've written several like comedic poems that I'm honestly very proud of. But I didn't follow through with my plan. Bring it back. Post pandemic is the perfect time you can rebrand your the comedy poet again that I feel like that's been a thing in the pandemic to like some comedians have like started writing poetry. I don't know. I am not one of them. I last read poetry in front of people when I was twelve, and the reception was really not good. I was like, it was a poem about like I was like trying to really like mesh with like the emo trend that was going on. And so I wrote a poem called not just Eyeliner, which was really confusing because I did not wear eyeliner and I never had I wasn't allowed to. And so I read this whole poem about how I'm more than just eyeliner, and then someone after classes was like, you don't wear an eyeliner? And I never wrote another poem the end, I think that and of itself was a poem. That story was very poetics. I should have been more I should have been more confident. I would be like, clearly you misunderstood it was a metaphor. There's a metaphor. But instead I was like, I'm sorry and never wrote a poem again. The movie we're talking about today is poetic justice, like so hard to not interject right now because I haven't been interrupted or introduced, so great, please I have. There's comedy, so there are comedy poems on like albums of mine, poems in between. Had a friend, comedian friend I went to college with, and I had him do interludes for every record I did for like the first four records, and two of them are poems because the albums are half rap and half poetry. I have not been introduced yet, but the poems are funny. Trust me. I'll tell you who I am later. Let's just formally introduce you now. The voice you just heard is that of a poet. Okay, first of all hip hop artists, activists, host of the podcast Hood Politics. He's got a poetry book coming out entitled terror Form. It's Jason Petty a k A propaganda, a k A prop That's that's me. You just told everybody my government name. Okay, word but uh yeah, yeah, so wonder poel wanted to look my homeboy, Alfonso mcfons. He said on my record, he goes, why did the crip cross the road? Because that was the end of the poem. I was like, it's brilliant, it's good, it's good when poetry is funny. It truly. I was like, it transcends, so I don't know, I like get really excited, and then I also get jealous because I'm like, how the fuck right they do that? There's a line, dude, because there's some poems that are attempting to be serious, but this, it is hilarious, you know what I'm saying, because it's like this it's the fake deep and then you're presenting it as if you're a character, you know, so it becomes where it's like I'm not supposed to laugh, but this is super funny, you know. It's like it's many as many years as I spent in like open mic scenes and and stuff like that, and just you know, it's just you. It's like you're you're a character, and like you don't know it, and I'm like, I don't I shouldn't be laughing, but it's so funny. I can't imagine the amount of cringe you had to sit through it Poetry open mix, because it's like a stand up of a mix. It's I feel like a similar like or maybe just a different a different brand of cringe that you have to sit there. Yeah, the cringes like So there's two types. Right. There's the like, especially at open mics, and you know the scene I came from, it's like we want people to be involved, like you want people to love the craft, love poetry, and nobody has any ill thoughts towards a person if it's like, yo, this is my second poem they've ever written, you know what I'm saying, or like they're just trying. So there's the air of humility. You know what I'm saying, Um, that's understandable. It's cringe e. But it's like you know, you know, you're learning. That's what open mics are for, that's what you know for comedy, like the one am slot. It's like this is you're working on something. So it's like it's dope, Okay, come back next week. You're gonna get better. Right. But then there's then there's the person that's like in the name of God, all on the Ancestors a sha like you know I had to that walked up there holding sage and instance and you're just like, what what do you what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? You know what I'm saying? And so you're sitting through this like That's what I'm saying. This like what I like to call the overwoke, Like just you know, I can't play pool because the game ain't over to the white ball hit the black ball into the hole, Like, come on, man, bro, that's not the that's not the fight dog, Like there's the there's a fight, we gotta fight. I just don't think this one's it, you know. So like there's a gang of cringe you know, but it's the cringe of the one that swears their brilliant. It's just that's the cringe. Yes, you know that, But it does feel like kind of a similar thing of like the cringe of a comedian who's convinced they're hilarious when they are just demonstrably no one is laughing. Yes, Like at the end there like that audience was they didn't get it. I don't know if they get it. I don't think any of us did. Man, I'm people in there, not one person. Let's be extremely misunderstood. Goodness. Um, so probly what's your relationship with the movie Poetic Justice? Oh man? Where do I start? Um? The relationship? I mean it may have to do it like my location and my age group, like and who the director is. I'm originally from South Central Los Angeles, so and at the time, I'm in eighth grade, maybe somewhere around middle school when this when this is happening, you know, I mean maybe even probably younger than that. But like the point is it was like black people didn't see ourselves on camera like this, you know, the director from South Central, you know what I'm saying. The story takes place in South Central, right, and this was like obviously a launch of so many other like sort of this like black Hollywood. It's like new school Black Hollywood that I got to like really experience this at like, you know, my whole coming of age. Like everything that came out after this was with boys in the hood and all this stuff that was like this takes place in l A. You know. So there's a very like emotional tie and and I don't know if it can be understated or overstated the transcendent nature of Tupac in Janet Jackson to to a black youth, you know, you know, venturing into you know, the beginnings of like coming out of childhood into boyhood that like I just I don't know if there were bigger stars than that, you know, and at the time, I mean, it's Janet Jackson Man like coming, it's She's like I just wonder if I just think, I just think her mythos would probably be just as legendary as Tupac if she passed, you know what I'm saying. But since she lived, you know, she's got to this level of icon that just Tupac's death and the mystery around it like created a lot of the mythology. But like the reality is there were no to human beings more physically gorgeous, you know what I'm saying. So the relationship not not only that it's like star studded, It's like there's like these like deep cuts, like hell q Tip from a tribe called Quest dies in the first scene, you know what I'm saying. So it's like these are stars for like Black America. Like again, I can't overstate this. This movie is star studded for like a preteen black kid, you know. So, which was why doing this pot is so it's gonna be so painful for me because you just want to protect you know, the emotional tie I have to it. Yeah, Yeah, I mean it's like the the emotional tie is immortal, is Yeah, yeah, Jamie, what about you? What's your history with it? UM? I've seen this movie before. I hadn't seen it in a long time. I remember watching this movie view with friends in high school. I think this was the first John Singleton movie I ever saw, which I don't know if that's like you, But I saw this and then I saw Boys in the Hood later, which I know is like chronologically out of order. But I really liked the movie because any movie where there was a girl as a protagonist, especially if I knew who it was, I was like, oh, Jedi Jackson, this is great, And I really I really liked it UM. And then but I haven't, like, I haven't gone back to it in in a long time, and I mean, there's definitely stuff to talk about. And I also that the history and the um the way that this movie I just didn't really kind of I didn't know like the chronology of John Singleton's UM like movies, and how this movie was made kind of in reaction to feedback he got from having made Boys in the Hood, and just the conversation happening around the movie UM is just as interesting as as the movie itself. So I'm I'm excited to talk about it. Yeah, it's been I think at least ten years since I've seen it. What about you, Caitlin. This is one that I had never seen before, so I was excited to watch it for the first time. I was also very caught off guard when the first face you see in the movie is Billy Zanes, and I was like, I know, Billy Zane cameo. You're just like it's going. It was a bit jarring. I always love to see Billy's Ane, but it's Billy Zane and Lori Petty right, It's pretty I remember seeing it in the theaters being like, what are they going, Oh, it's a movie within a movie. It's a good bait and switch. I forgot. I completely forgot that it opens that way and it starts with like, correct me if I'm wrong. It felt like, uh, like kind of bizarre Woody Allen reference at the beginning, because they're like playing Rhapsody and Blue over like the city Escape, and you're like, oh, this is huh what is happening? And then it's Billy Zane And then the movie started and you see like the marquis for the movie at like the drive in that they're out and in the name of the movie is Deadly Diva or something like that, which is a play on Sem Fei Tao obviously, which is a is the title of a movie that Billy Zane was in a couple of years earlier. So I did not know that quite an easter egg. I liked that, um, that Justice. It's going to be so hard for me to not just say Janet Jackson that Justice. Um in that first scene is like, this movie is really good. I was like, Oh, it isn't she's talking about But Billy Zane isn't it? So it's amazing. So in a way, she's completely right. But anyway, yeah, I hadn't seen this movie. I was excited to see it, and I'm excited. Who talk about it? So should we get into the recap and go from there? Yeah, and prop jump in whenever for the recap. The recap is open seasons. It is so we like I said, see Billy Zane and Lori Petty. It's revealed that they are characters in a movie that Justice. Janet Jackson and her boyfriend Marquel are watching at a drive in movie theater in South central l A. But during the movie, Marquel is shot and killed by a couple of guys he had had some conflict with a few days prior there. Let me let me jump in here. Uh, there's there's some there's some like hood Easter eggs in this too is like so obviously it opens once upon a time in South central l A. The drive ins in Compton. Though, so there's like hood shit happening because if you at the time, if you're from south central, we have no business going down to content, you know what I'm saying, because like unless you know somebody down there, you shouldn't be down there, you know what I'm saying. So but look, everybody on a date, you ain't worried about it. He probably forgot about the thing, you know what I'm saying. And you see him looking in the mirror. Like there were scenes in that that were so triggering is not the word, but very familiar, you know what I mean. So like that's the type of stuff that like if you from for us, why this part of this movie was so iconic. It makes you know the directors from here because those things are like, Okay, yeah, that's that, that's what would happen, because he wouldn't get shot in his own hood, like, nobody would do that, and from South Central one would do that. In South Central you are you are on the other side of town, you know, you further south. So that's a it's a just an interesting like moment. And then again it's cu Tip from a tribe called quest Like and I'm going, I'm at the age when this movie is coming out that I'm like falling in of with turns out what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life. So I'm falling in love with hip hop, you know. So to see Tip in a movie, I was like, wait, rappers, can you can be in movies? And I knew Tupac was the star, but he don't count Tupac already in the stratosphere. He's gone. But like I was like, but this, but Tip, okay, he got to kiss you Jackson, you know, yeah, and and and there and everyone is good in this movie too. It's like whenever that the musician to actor pipeline is not effective, but in this movie, I feel like it very much works. Yes for sure. Yeah. So after the death of Marquel, some time passes, Justice writes poetry to help her cope with her grief and to just generally make sense of the world. But it's all Maya Angelou poetry that is happening throughout the movie, and some of it like I don't know. I was like, maybe I just didn't know a lot of her poetry when I saw this the first time, But now I was like, oh wait, wait, that's it's a phenomenal woman. I know, but it's so I mean, it weaves in so seamlessly. It's yeah, And I feel like that's a really good choice by John Singleton to to just like go to the master and not be like, let's see how this goes, because yeah, and it's like it's almost like it's like feminism for his time, because I don't know who's more who's more iconic than my Angelo, like you know what I'm saying. And to say that that's the driving voice of this film, I guess in ninety one you could be like this is feminism, you know what I mean I mean by yeah, by by just like including women's voices at all as a male writer write about women. It's like the bar is low, but that's not nothing. And her poetry, and I was also just like so psyched at her at her cameo later in the aunt June and then so we hear this poetry as voiceover throughout the entire movie. It kind of comes in and out. Um professionally, Justice is a hairstylist. Aisha played by Regina King is one of Justice's clients and best friend. The salon owner, Jesse played by Tyra Farrell, asks Justice when she's gonna get over Marquel and find herself a good man as if on cue a postman. Lucky that's Tupac enters the salon, flirts with Justice, but she kind of works with him and he's like, never mind. And then Lucky's friend Chicago played by Joe Torrey, asks him to come along on a drive to Oakland. He's bringing his girlfriend, so Lucky asks if he can hook him up with one of Chicago's girlfriend's friends. Right here, real quick. Again, another like uh thing that the rest of us are catching is like again, okay, obviously, Regina King becomes the Regina King we all know now, but at the time, at least for our community. Again, she's already a star, you know, so she was, you know, she had the two to seven, a little sitcom when she was she was a little girl. And then Joe Torre was like the host of Comic View and like deaf comedy jam. So these dudes, Like again, it was like this movie is so stacked, you know, and like and I can't get over. Like that was one thing that like, now as an adult looking back at it, I was like, dang, John, he broke the bank for this thing, man, because this this mug is stacked, right. And then the second thing I was thinking about two is like, now looking back, I'm like, Pockets supposed used to be our Lucky's character is supposed to be he's one of the good ones. And I'm like, and that's the juxtaposition because again the bars low he's got a job, you know what I'm saying, He wants to take care of his kids. He sees the gangster dudes doing the thing, he's choosing to do something else, you know what I'm saying. So you're supposed to see him as not as toxic as all the other Now I'm just like I look at him now and I'm just like this the bare minimum bat like. But but at the time I was like, yeah, man, Luck, you're good dude, you know. Yeah, well, I mean he that that comes up pretty early in the movie too, that like he's he's a father and he takes his kid out of like a really toxic situation at home and goes home with his mom. Yeah, yeah, that's what happens next. But he negs women every step of the way the whole time, like every you got something to say. We also learned about his musical aspirations. He one of the reasons he wants to go to Oakland. They're on like a postal service run. But he also intends to meet up with his cousin Khalil, because they're both aspiring musicians who like collaborate on different things. Meanwhile, it turns out that Aisha is the one who is dating Chicago So and when he asks if she knows anyone who like she can hook Lucky up with, she's like, oh yeah, my friend Justice. Hey, Justice, take this drive with us. And she's like no thanks, But she ends up going anyway because she and Jesse have a hair show in Oakland and her car won't start, so she's like, well, I guess I'll get a ride in this mail truck. So when she shows up, she's like, wait a minute, I recognize this guy, and so she and lucky. You're both kind of like yea, you know, they have this little history of like her him hitting on her, her rejecting him, so they're like and then it turns into this fun road movie. My sister is uh, quite a few years outer than me, so she's actually at the time, she's like the age of the characters, and so like there's not one outfit that Justice is wearing that my sister didn't have, you know what I mean, almost like like this girl looks like my sister, you know, all of the burning the edges of her braids, Like it's like this is the way we lived, you know. And um, but I remember asking my sister. I used to always ask because like she always had these quick comebacks when you know, guys were hitting on her. Since I was so much younger, I was always her alibi. So I went to so many things that I probably shouldn't have gone to you because I was the alibi for her to tell our parents, you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, tell my mom where she was. Yeah, she was just like oh, you know, like she would pick me up from school and I'd be like, oh, thanks for the right home. We'd end up somewhere in Burbank. You know what I'm saying, at like some dude's house. You know, they're breaking up bricks. You know what I'm saying, Because she's hollering at the boy. You know, So I was just her alibi, right, So anyway, UM like, hey, you want to go get Jack in the box and on jacket. But we'd stopped by seven other houses were jack. The point is I was always in these like adult situations. I probably shouldn't have been it, but I used to always witness her shoot dudes down, and she would get creative after a while and and like little things like it was like hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, you got a name? And she'd be like don't everybody? Or so can I get your number? It's like you gotta get your own. So she would like she was just super creative, and I just remember thinking like, why are you so mean? And that was because you know, I'm a little boy. So I was just like, and I'm still nervous to like walk up to like Yalanda Zalez and ask her to dance, you know what I'm saying, Like, I'm still just a nerd kids, So I'm just like, why are you that would kill me if Yolanda said that to me, Like I would never ask anyone ever, like why are you so mean? You know? And she was just trying to explain to me, like Jason, this happens every day all the time. Every day She's like, fools, don't understand no, like you just you And after a while it just gets boring. So You're like, I'm just gonna entertain myself. But at the time, I was like, Okay, dang, my sister's mean, you know, so the way so the way that she the way Justice just kept shutting his food down, you know what I'm saying. I was like, no, wonder he's so mad, you know what I'm saying. She just mean, why are you so mean? You know? Not like I mean, here had two sisters, I had another sister, same way. But she used to just stare my other My other sisters passed away. She was just staring dudes. They would say stuff, she would just look at them, just silent. That's the ultimate punishment too. I wish I had I wish I had the Constitution to do any of this. This sounds amazing. Dog, my sid they were cold, my sisters, they were cold, say but like, and I honestly it wasn't until adulthood that I really understood like you, oh oh you just because I was like, dog, I would be crushed. I mean if I said this to me, you know. But I'm also not going like, I'm not doing that either. I'm saying so probably why nobody's saying it to me makes a difference. Yes, oh yeah, she's just reacting to being constantly harassed basically. Um So that's what happens. For the first chunk of this trip where they set off on this drive to Oakland, Justice and Lucky do not get along. He's like, why are you so quiet? Why are you so mean? You're so stuck up? And then he calls her a bit several times. They get into a screaming match, which results in Justice getting out of the mail truck in the middle of nowhere. Lucky drives off, but Aisha is like, do you have to stop and go back and pick up my friends? What are you gonna do? They're like hours away, and I was like, oh no, that was clearly the grape vine. If you're from l A, You're like, that's the grape There's nothing there. Don't get out the car there and no one's gonna no one's gonna drive by for a while, no one's gonna see Yeah, So they go back and get her. Justice eventually gets back in. They make a stop where Chicago and Lucky talk about women in relationships, Justice and Asia talk about men. This is what again. John Singleton's brilliance is like he sneaks in an amazing socio cultural lesson in the same way Boys in the Hood has this like one moment about gentrification that's like so iconic where Lawrence Fishburn is teaching them about ownership and like gentrification and stuff like that. In this moment, they're just at this your store and she's like, yo, where the oldie that's like old English like malt liquor. Justice is like, oh, they don't sell that outside the hood, And it's like that just quick, like you know what I'm saying that quick like ha, like this just he he just sneaks these like singers in, you know what I'm saying that are a part of the story. So you don't feel like you're being preached at you know, yeah, totally yeah. And then they leave from that little rest stop or whatever, and then they're driving again, they smell some barbecue. They realize it's coming from the Johnson family reunion and they're like, oh, let's stop and see if we can get some food. Um, which works. They mistake them for being part of this family and then beat This is my favorite scene in the movie by far. I loved this family reunion. UM. During this time, also Justice and Lucky chat a bit. They start to find some common ground. Then Aisha and Chicago get in a huge fight. They have to leave the family reunion and get back on the road. Justice calls Aisha out for her alcohol abuse. They then make another stop at an African cultural fair. Justice and Lucky keep warming up to each other. Meanwhile, Aisha and Chicago's relationship is falling apart. I think it really like speaks to the pacing that John Singleton is able to achieve here, where like by the time they got to the fair, I was like, this is all happening in one day day, like, which makes sense for that drive, but I was like, it's just paste so like methodically of like whatever you can tell kind of early it's like, Oh, Janet Jackson is going to she's going to fix him, She's going to change him to it too, or that's where it seems like it's going and it happens in the day and it's like again, it's it's stupid. I just I just bleed Los Angeles or California. So I just noticed this type stuff that they chose to take pH rather than the five. Yeah, and it's like three hours longer to go a pH. So it's like, this is the worst way to go, you know, in your mail carriers. Don't you know that? You know? But how you going to have like the iconic like beach scenes because you're definitely not going to get like a Pan African festival, you know what I'm saying going through Fresno. Yeah, you know it's dairy farms, you know. So I get it that you had to do that for the look, but yeah, like you don't hit you until, like you said that, you're like, wait, this was a day, you know, like a lesser writer could have really made it feel like a day. But it just like everyone does go through like some manner of an arc in the space of like whatever ten am to eight at night. I also love how Lucky keeps being like we have a schedule to stick to, we have to like we gotta get there at a certain time, so let's take the PC and three hours to the drive. Yes, it's ridiculous goodness. So these relationships are these dynamics are changing Chicago and Aisha's relationship is falling apart. Chicago hits Aisha and there's some violence there. So they leave Chicago behind. They're like, fuck you dude. He lenges a justice as well, doesn't he. Yeah, yeah, that's what said Lucky off to be like all right, because at first he was like, it has none of my business, you know, and it's like just when you're ready to like like Lucky, yeah, and then he's like, I'm not gonna jump, not gonna intervene when a woman is being by your friends. Yeah. It's so crazy because it's like and then now I'm being generous here, but it's like in something just he's like that fool's my coworker. We just get along like we're not wait really homies, Like this is funny? Is my friend freeds a work friend? You know? And again I'm obviously I don't feel like this, but he's like, I Usha is mouthy. She is kind of like berating him at a level. Well, I probably obviously I wouldn't date somebody that toxic or be in a relationship that toxic already. But the point is is like, rather than crying, which is what any other well processed human would do, at that moment, he decides to hit her, you know, and then when he lunches at justice is when yeah, he jumps in. But I I I remember feeling like Regina King is the most familiar character in this in the way that she's playing it, because again, it's one of those things where you're like, oh, you're really from here, like you're really from Los Angeles, and I can tell you know, Janet, it's kind of hard to suspend really because we're like, well, you're a Jackson, right, you know what I'm saying, Like, yeah, you know you were Michael Jackson's little sister, Like how I can't you didn't go to Crunshaw High, Like I know you didn't, So it's kind of hard. You played the hell out of that role. But it's kind of hard like Regina, you like naht and vernth like I know you from here, you know, I'm saying. So the way that she was just like got dog, the way she was tearing that food down, you know what I'm saying, and uh it to me, it just it's just highlighted, like to get bigger, to get like more meta. Here, just highlighted just how you guys talk about intersectional like what interlocking systems of injustice does, how institutionalized racism, how it eventually trickles down to us hating each other, you know what I'm saying, and never having the space to process that hate, and it turns into clear and evident domestic violence, you know what I'm saying. So much so that again within our community, there's one thing, there's one thing that black people learn, especially when you grow up the way I grow up is mind your fucking business, Joe saying, like you look, I hear what's going on over there. We don't call the police. Where I'm from, police mess around, shoot me. I'm the one that called. They go, so we don't call it. You stay out of their business. They stay out of mind. We don't know what they got going on, you know what I'm saying. And most of the time it's for better or for worse, you know, but like look, they just now they're crazy. You just stay out of that, Like, don't worry don't get in the middle of that. You don't know, you don't know which one of them connected. You mess around, they mess around, called their cousin. You catch a spray bullet for standing up in the middle of this. Stay out of it, you know what I'm saying. And all of that toxicity just sits in our like just in our community, so that like the obvious answer right now is to funk out the car and stop this, like you know what I'm saying, or not even don't even let it get there, like the minute they start, like Okay, y'all, you know what I'm saying, Like you stopped that before even gets to that. But you just learned from being in such a like just growing up with such toxicity to like, no, let me stay out of that. You all know, you know what I mean? Yeah, Yeah, That's part of what I'm really interested to talk about Lucky in general, because it seems like he is like on a kind of path towards like altering some of those But but I feel like the movie does kind of give you the context of why he feels that way, even when you're like I completely disagree with what he's either tolerated or how he's acting. I feel like John Singleton does do a good job of giving you the context of like this is not a vacuum. Yeah. Yeah, because when you think of Lucky's character, you juxtaposed that to tone Loke, which was the other baby daddy who's also remarkably famous at the time, you know what I'm saying. So you you juxtaposed it to him, to the dude that you know, his baby mama was sleeping with, to the hood that the you know, the project building that they live in, and then the homies that drive up that got guns in the car. You're like, you juxtapose who Lucky is in relation to what he's around all the time. You're like, I understand you. I understand that you believe you are making the better choices, you know, And that's like that's the part that like again, it's like if I could put that like on that emotion on billboards, especially when we start talking about police brutality and George Floyd and stuff like that, when you move into things like please understand the context here, you know what I'm saying, Like, there's a lot of hurdles were jumping over, you know, and it's not it's not an excuse, but again it's context, right, and you even see police hassling people in the neighborhood. Yeah, the movie is not about that, but it's something that you get a glimpse of because like this is their reality. It's another like very yeah, really smooth John Singleton, like the like you're saying prop with like the convenience start a scene where it's just like something that happens, and then they keep moving through the world. But it's like, oh yeah, that is like a very intentionally done for sure. So let's see they've let they've left Chicago behind. Justice and Lucky get even closer. He talks more about his musical aspirations. She tells him about her family history. They finally kiss, and I believe it's implied they have sex. If I'm not mistaken that we cut a chat with a blanket. You're just like maybe, I don't know. It's like it's sunset there. Well, the main indication is shortly after that they're back in the car and Lucky he's like, I have to tell you something and she's like, oh no, you're not gonna tell me that you have something as in like an s T I I was like no, no, no, nothing like that. I have a daughter. And she's like, well, why didn't you tell me that? Sooner? The ultimate sexually transmitted um right yo. I was actually pretty taken back as to like why she reacted so largely about him having a child, because I was like, wait, why, like why is she furious about this like that? I I guess again like product of my time, Like I wouldn't I would have been relieved if somebody would have been like, I have something to tell you that I would be nervous. And she was like, yo, did you just give me something? And then he's like no, I have a daughter. Oh all right, cool? How old is she? You know what I'm saying, Like, tell me about her? Do you have any pictures? Like? You know, Like I feel like that would have been such a relief rather than like outraged, you know, I was kind of I mean, there's like a few points in how Justice has written that I'm a little kind of confused on like the choices that were made that is like set up, and I think is it's at the family reunion scene where Justice says something like or maybe it's in that scene where it's just their thoughts are being voiceovered while they're at the beach, where she's like, oh, he looks like he has a kid, or like I I feel like it was implied that maybe she was like that's too much work, that's too much like, yeah, I don't really know. It was kind of unclear um why. Yeah, she does ask him about it at the family reunion. She's like, oh, you seem like the type who would have a kid, and rather than confirming that at the time, he's just like he says like, ha ha, anyway, I'll never tell Oh yeah, yeah, I forgot about that part because she was kind of like, yeah, like dragging him as if like you got baby stashed everywhere you don't even take it care of, you know what I mean. He's like, yeah, you don't even know, you know what I mean? Yeah, because he's a good dad, yeah, relatively stomping out of somebody yeah yeah, and then leaving her for the weekend with his mom, which she told him not to do. She's like, I'm raising this using this baby. Take it back back anyway. So right as this is all happening, they have arrived in Oakland, only to discover that Lucky's cousin Khalil has just been shot and killed, and Lucky is devastated and he tells Justice like, oh, if we had gotten here sooner, this would have never happened. And he blames Justice and the time they spent together for like not allowing him to prevent this from happening to Khalil, and he storms off. Justice is very hurt. She This is when we get the voice over poem Phenomenal Woman Lucky. We see him dealing with his grief, and then sometime later back in l A, Lucky brings his daughter Kesha into the salon where Justice works. He apologizes, they kiss and make up, and the movie ends with Justice doing Keisha's hair. So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and we will come back to discuss, and we're back where to the beginning here. There's there's so much to talk about. Is there anything that jumps out to you right away? Prop? I mean, it's hard to not think about it in terms of like when I first saw it versus you know, a married man with two children. Now you know what I'm saying, Like it's kind of like there's like two mes you know watching it? Now you know what I'm saying um, and the me when I first saw it again as like a preteen just mesmerized with the posters on my wall just came to life in this movie. You know what I'm saying, Um in the city that I grew up in. You know. So there's so much like black star power in there that that like emotions kind of like override a lot of the like clear problematic. You know what I'm saying things now as a father that I'm just like, damn man um. So yeah, So I think that like the idea of like at one time I saw the women in this film as strong as leads. As Like I'm like, no, this is a great depiction of women, you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, like what do you mean? Like she's a business owner. She's telling her men ain't ship, you know, and you know she like, you know, she doing her thing, and that was in a bad relationship, but you know that happens, you know, and and Justice went through some serious trauma, and you know she had up walls and she knew doing her things. She in that big house by herself, and you know, she's got a very cute cat. She's got the cute cat and now she's fine happiness. That's dope. Yeah, she writes my Angelo poems like I mean, come on, dude, like how is where's the problem? You know what I'm saying. So I think it's it's like it left me interrogating kind of doing some like revisionist history with my own sort of opinions and understanding. Um So I think that like that's the that's the main thing that like in relation to like I don't know if bect illness is a word in relation to that where I'm just like heang, dude, like wow, you know, uh, you just walk away going yeah, because you're so used to I'm so used to seeing bad depictions of black men that I forget to notice everything else, you know what I mean. It's like your triag ng and this sitting down for this really made me notice more. Yeah. And I mean especially when you you know, you see a movie like this in your formative years and like how influential it was, and when you read like interviews and stuff from John Singleton, who who says with this movie, he wanted to show South Central in a different light than had been depicted before in movies. He wanted to focus on the women in his community. He wanted to tell a story specifically about black people in South Central falling in love. Like that's that was his inspiration. And because there were so few movies of that nature, especially during this time, that's a very strong, powerful thing. That doesn't Lucky being a problematic figure and a toxic person in different areas of his life doesn't negate all of this, all of that stuff, all of like the power that comes with that representation. So yeah, like I totally understand like kind of being of two minds about it. You can't like there's no that. The thing about like the again, the mythology around Tupac is like in all the movies he's in, you know, he's Bishop and Juice, you know what I'm saying, He's Striker in like you know, Above the Rim, all these like iconic like movies that part of build his his his mythology. It's hard to see a film and only see him at that as that character, Like I still see Tupac, you know what I'm saying, And all that Tupac was and stood for as far as like in a lot of ways reimagining of black masculinity. You know, he was actually very well read. You know, he's my My father was a black panther. You know, his mother was a black panther. So it's like there's this like this rage against the machine attitude about him, you know what I'm saying, And that like he represents in a lot of ways. You know, if you think about like active gang membership, it's really a small percentage of humans in South Central, you know what I'm saying. So, like it's cool to see a movie that's not about the four kids in the back of the room, you know what I mean. That's more about the other twenty five of us trying to just finish high school, you know, but having to intersect with this all the time. You know, it's hard to separate even now the character Lucky from Tupac. Yeah, and it sounds like this movie. I didn't know this for sure when I first saw this movie, but that it's in it's partially based on an experience that Tupac had between So I read that on the scholarly journal Wikipedia that here it is that the like the seed of this movie was about a like brief relationship Tupac had with a poet named Anne Marie rose Um who he met between takes of Juice. That's crazy that so, I I don't know exactly I wasn't able to find the exact like did he bring this to John Singleton, I don't really know, but it sounds like he had had a similar um a similar experience to this, at least in the abstract, to the point where like this poet Emery Rose had box braids and that was the reason that Janet Jackson like had her hair the way she did in this point. And so it is like Lucky and Tupac, I guess that they're kind of like connected in this this really personal way, which yeah, I had no idea that that was a thing. And I think that, like I have some stuff that that John Singleton R. I. P. Has Has said over the years about this movie. It's really interesting because it's like I think that it's it's not necessarily the most important thing to know, but I just think it's like, I don't know, I'm like, holy shit, he was only twenty five when he made this movie. That is like, so didn't know that, which means he was even younger when he did Boys in the Hood. Yeah, he was. He is like a huge history making Artists. He was the youngest person ever to be nominated for Best Director at the Academy Awards. He was twenty four when Boys in the Hood was nominated. This was his first movie after that. He's only when it's so wild and I mean it's even with the like issues I do have with this movie, it's like you can't not respect the ship out of like the creative risk this is to take coming off of like Boys in the Hood was this gigantic success. It was, it was huge, it was iconic. And then he I was going through kind of the interviews he was doing in for Poetic Justice, and he just talked about how he, like, I just wanted to do something else and was like not afraid to try something else. And even though this movie, I guess that this movie was not as like critically a claim him as Boys in the Hood, but it was, you know, he did what he wanted to do, and I don't know, there's a lot of kind of dissonance. There's some stuff that he says that I'm like, oh, this is so cool and insightful, and then there's other stuff that feels very of its time. Um, So I'll just I guess, uh, some of some of the stuff that really that really I thought was really cool, he Kaitly, and you've alluded to a lot of it already. Was he wanted to show like love in the Hood, He wanted to do a road movie. He wanted to have a black female protagonist at a time where that was not a choice that most directors were going to make it all and he did that very intentionally. And then on the other end, something that I thought was really interesting and feels like, oh, the nineties really were a very different time. Was he was kind of asked, um, I'm I'm pulling from a Village Voice interview here from but he's asked, like, so, you've made this like woman's movie, and he is, really, he really does not want that label put on the movie. And I think the quote is interesting. He says, uh, this is not a woman's movie. Don't say that, or you'll have every feminist in town coming out for attack. It's a film with a black woman as a central character, directed by a black man, which is like all true, but I think it's it's I'm trying to think of this is not the first time I've heard a quote similar to that from a male director of Like in the nineties, you know, it's like men were not considering themselves feminists and like labeling yourself a feminist if you were a man, there was this stigma attached to it. And that comes across in Lucky's character too when he talks about like you're not one of those feminists, right, and then immediately it's like, oh, yeah, he does not think kylie of feminists. Um, and it's I don't know, I just I thought that that was that was such a like interesting of the time thing to say of like the idea of label in your movie as feminist made it less marketable, where it's like, now that's not really the case at all. You know. It's in in Black Twitter. Uh there's this other podcast with Joe Button's and and these other you know men. They were discussing, um, post New Deal, just like breakdown of the black family, you know, um, some of the sort of clear and obvious like disenfranchisement and like just the psi op that like the nation did on the psyche of black men, right, you know. Um, and you know after the war effort offering things to you know, black mothers, the you know who were now the head of the house because either men were at war or whatever the case. Maybe he was trying to make this argument that like part of what even deeper deeply destroyed the black male psyche was. This is his argument was that, uh, it's like, let me make this clear, Okay. This is his argument was that, um, when we came back, you know, finally got on our feet after the war efforts and stuff like that, and you know, after dealing with all it took to try to finally get rights and you know, get jobs as black men, that our women chose the money over us, so they kept getting government subsidies and kind of being like, oh, we actually don't need husbands. They chose to go to work, they chose to go do their own things. So he said, in our psyches, we started feeling like, dang, this was supposed to be temporary, Like this was supposed to be until we can get ourselves together. But you're choosing the money over us, and that choice he's he says, like, you know, travel through the rest of our sort of like collective traumas if you will. So when you move forward into this black feminist movement, his argument is that even that movement has helped to destroy the confidence of black men, and why why can't whack y'all can't get your ship together. He's like, well, here's why, you know, or here's part of why. It's his argument, he's saying, Black families were always strong pro pre Jim Crow, pre artists. You had, we had all kinds of support, whether it was through our churches or in double a CP, like the family unit was. We had a very tight nuclear family in the black community historically because we had to survive, you know what I'm saying. So his argument is like this destroyed us, to which I'm like, okay, far be it for me to like, you know, disagree with my elders, you know what I'm saying. Like I'm not gonna you know, like I'm not gonna do that, but I am gonna say it's like we had this unit. But it's like I feel like we have yet to like be honest with ourselves about how bad patriarchy existed in Black families, Like I feel like we don't want to admit misogyny in our homes and because we're like, well, let's be real, prop our families are led by we already know women are in charge and our college is very different. Were not liked in white people, you know what I'm saying, Like that's like, that's like the argument among among the black community is like or at least this this argument is like, well at least we're not bad as them, you know what I'm saying, Like we treat our women differently than everybody else. And I'm like, okay, okay, I mean my grandma ran ran the house, you know. I mean I understand that, right, but let's not let's not lie to ourselves fellas, you know what I'm saying. And I feel like this statement, like again with Lucky talking about you know what in feminists? Are you or or him saying no, this ain't no feminist movie. I think in a lot of ways again, if we talk about like the triaging of like okay, well we all black, so we all suffering, you know what I'm saying. So I don't understand why you're parsing this particular thing out. You know, you feel me like it's like that's the attitude, and it's like, actually, we treat your a hell of different, you know what I'm saying. Then, Tyler and Tanner, do you know what I'm saying? Like we don't talk to our women the way that they talk to them white ladies. We don't. We don't talk like you know what I'm saying. So you have this attitude about it. So when you talk about feminists like hold on dog, like, nah, is that is that you hanging from them lynch and trees? No, that's us hanging you know, So you have this defense. I feel like that we are still I'm saying. It's like to my shame, like we're still reckoning with the reality of like, na, we got blood on our hands, Like Claretta Scott King was not allowed to talk, Like that's Martin Luther King's wife, yourself, I'm saying, like he didn't let her talk because women don't belong in the pulpit, Like what did you talking about, bro? Like, let's be honest, you know what I'm saying. And I feel like this, uh, this moment that you're bringing up is like again like connected to where we're at now, which is obviously very different where like it's like, yo, no, we're all about like nah, lead black women, black women, voices, black women, you know what I'm saying. So it's like it's interesting to see I feel like if we still have what I know we do, we still have a lot of reckoning we need to do with like our roles as black men with misogyny and patriarchy, you know, because they because the rap stuff is easy. You know what I'm saying, I need a gangster bitch like he was. He was singing out in the cars like Okay, that's obvious. All right, that's easy. We know that stuff. You know what I'm saying, I'm talking about life for real, for real, you know what I mean. Thank you for for kind of like like breaking that down and unpacking that because it that does like give such a clearer context to where John Singleton is coming from there and then like regardless, he does center a black woman and this yeah, and a young black woman where you know, well we'll we'll talk about justice his storyline more. But it's you know it, it was I get not surprising, but always just like holy ship like discouraging to go back and see how few black women were directing movies at all, much less directing stories that reflected their own experience back in the nineties. It's extremely low number. There was, I think, most notably in terms of wide release. There was Julie Dashes Daughters of the Dust, and then Cheryl Dounier is the Watermelon Woman. But outside of that, it was so it's like, you know, set it off, Stella got a groove Back, but those were both directed by men, you know, and exactly, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. And I was like, and they're still as relates to men, especially how Stella gotta groove back, you know what I'm saying right right, absolutely, And it's so it's it's like, ultimately, it's I think, like a worthwhile creative risk that John Singleton like tried to tell this story even though it's like, you know, we'll we'll talk through it. But the fact that it but it's also equally frustrating that it's like, you know, would a black woman have written this story a little more cogently, a little clearer probably, but it wasn't it just the money and the movement was not um, you know, giving them the resources they needed. It. It's it's never you know, a lack of talented directors or writers. It's it's the fact that it's. Yeah, seeing how few wide releases from black women came out in the nineties is just incredibly discouraging. Yeah, let's take another quick break and then we'll be right back. Should we talk about the relationship between Justice and Lucky the problems there in the put it off long enough, I mean, you know, the foundation of the bay sis of this relationship. He comes into the salon, he tries to flirt with her and ask her out, which to me that was like like he'd at least in the context of the way that he did it, it was like fine, like whatever, But then he does not take being rejected well. So that's kind of where we're starting off. Then at the beginning of their road trip, we talked about this a little bit already, but he calls her mean, he calls her stuck up, He calls her an angry bitch, a feminist, and it's all because she's just like quiet and not responding to him talking about like wanting a quote gangster bitch, and like I do like that. That's made out to seem a little embarrassing for him because he's like mumbling, and it was like, you look, so why do yeah? Uh? I used to once upon a time, like I taught high school and I had a section where I had to tea like beginning level of psychology, right, and the kids loved it inner city school and um, so we got to like all the like post Freudian stuff like reaction formations and like projection and stuff like that. Like, um, it was like the most effortless and endless source of examples I could give these like ninth graders as to like what this is? You know what I'm saying. So this this was a perfect example like of reaction formation where it's like, hey, you want to go out with me? No, that's because you're ugly, Like what like you know what I'm saying, Like, bro, you just got look take it on the chin. Everybody takes else, you know, everyone takes else, bro, And you just take it on the chin. Live to fight another day, you know. But just that perfect example of like I tease, I tease my, UM, I tease my wife and my my my my older daughter. Um. About like how as a little boy you start learning how to process rejection somewhere around fifth grade, you know, because like because of how big the reaction is, of how gross boys are, when you finally felt enough courage, you know what I'm saying to like you know, and and poor kid don't let the kid be queer, you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, when you first have to start figuring out what it means to get a know, you know, and like and having to like by That's why I'm like, by the time you get to high school or get outside of high school and you see like the clearly this guy's a douche bag get more yes is than you, You're like, well, I guess is that the way to Is that how you do it? Like you know, or you're just like whatever, you whatever, bit you're stupid, you know, it's like okay, man, like you have to learn how to process. No, you know, I wish that that was like that there, Yeah, I mean, I mean, but it's like so few kids are taught how to deal with rejection. I feel like that's that. Yeah, Like when you're growing up, I feel like there's almost I guess, unless you're really lucky or you have like parents who are fucking on it, like which almost nobody does. Uh right, Like no, Like I I don't know a kid in the world that grew up and then you know, around fifth grade, it's like they were told regardless of gender, like hey, if you're you know, here is like a way that you can ask someone something that is respectful and like here's how to judge boundaries, and here's how to deal with rejection that isn't just lashing out. And but it's like, I feel like those conversations are really rare with with kids and and would make a huge fucking difference. Yes, I'm so impressed with Like I hate to use the term gen z, but that's where my daughter refers to herself as so like the amount of like we during when the pandemic started, you know, we we totally got on this, like all right, we're gonna show you all of the movies from from our childhood, you know what I mean. Like so and she's like, I mean, my my other daughter is dope, like totally an anime. She's like a Star Wars nerd. Like like she's dope, you know what I'm saying. Like, you know, she got like a little fake slitherin tattoo on her arm, like she's cool, you know what I'm saying. Um, So, at some point we was like, all right, Breakfast Club, weird Science, Like, let's show her all these flicks, right, And as we're showing them, specifically, what gave us pause was like when we got to Weird Science and you know, they're making this woman, you know what I'm saying, and so like, my my daughter's like, what the funk is this? Like just like you know, she's like cussing at us because she's like, this is y'all gotta nah, hony, like this don't ride you know what I'm saying. It's like so proud of her, you know what I mean, for her already knowing like no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no, we're not She's like, y'all watch this. This is a movie. He thought this was good good. Yeah, it's just and it's like all these different moments. She was like the breakfast Club she rocked with, you know what I mean. She was like, Okay, this you know obviously because it's about it's a coming age is much different movie. But like some of the other stuff he was trying to show her, she was just like nah or not, this is horrible. Yeah. I was like you know what I'm me and my wife are like, yo, I'm super proud of this little girl. Just nah. She's like no, just no, no, and I was like, okay, future future Bectel cast guests, Yeah, the sounds of it, yeah, oh gosh, yeah, this the basis of this relationship. And then that that argument that having the in the truck ends with him screaming at her saying like fuck you bitch, get out of here, like all this stuff, and then again not a great foundation on which to build a romance. And yet I'd argue she he doesn't necessarily deserve a second chance after the way he treats her like in that first conversation, and and the way she stands up for herself is like again it's it's like it's interesting to watch with like I was trying to put on goggles with like mixed results, but like the way that she's standing up for herself I think is like pretty cool and like very like direct. And but he interprets this as like, you know, you're being aggressive, you're being cold, you know. But she she says like, don't call me a bit. You don't know anything about me. I'm a black woman. I deserve respect. Don't call me a bit. If I'm a bit, your mother's a bit. And just like all this stuff that is like you know, she has like the top of mind comebacks that anyone would want to have, but he just takes it all, you know, at the beginning. And again it's like, you know, she heals his misogyny in a day, um, but at the beginning, I mean he he, you know, is not receptive to it at all. Yeah, I think the journey of like of Lucky in some ways, obviously everybody a different scale. I think I relate to in the sense that like it depending on how trash you actually are, like most, well I'll not say mostly, but I'll say like homies I'll run with like we never saw ourselves as problematic because we knew problematic dudes, you know what I'm saying. So we're like, no, that food is a problem. You don't stand what I'm saying, Like he trash, Like that's a scumbag, douchebag, that food's trash, you know what I'm saying. So I think in his head, it's like that's what I'm saying, Like she heals his misogyny because I feel like in a lot of ways, obviously I was never there, but I know in a lot of ways, like I've had, you know, corrective moments, you know, what I'm saying in the sense to where you like you don't come in, you come in thinking you're different, you know what I mean. And so for him to be like why are you so quiet? What you right? And it's like in his head he's like, no, I'm being approachable, like I'm tring. I'm trying to have a conversation with you, like you feel me like dang, I'm you riding in the car like you know, I don't understand what I'm doing wrong, you know. Uh, but having that arc you know, again, this ain't to defend him, but what I'm saying is like that's the part that's like, in my mind in some ways relatable, you know, little stuff like I thought when I got married, like, yo, it's my job to take care of I'm gonna take care of all the household bills, you spend your money on, what you want to spend your money on, because I'm a real man, you know what I'm saying, I take care of out you feel me, It's like, well, you know we can have a conversation about it. To ask and I was like, oh yeah, you know, like so like that type of like you know what, I don't know where I got Where did I get that from? But then you started questioning like you know, absolutely correct, you know? Or like when we were dating, Hey, you want to go out? And I would feel weird about saying like I don't have the money to go out today, you know what I'm saying, Like, but I didn't know how to say that, so I would try to come up with like a million other things and she'd be like, I got it, And I'm like you sure, like, well I gotta go nowhere, you know, and she's like what the man? Like, I'm telling you it's cool, you know? So not that For me, it was like that sort of evolution to where it was more like obviously knew better, Like again, I just wasn't that much trash to know that ppposed to talk to nobody like this, but but you don't. But there's there's levels to this ship, you feel me Like if you don't, you don't realize it until somebody pointed out you know what I'm saying, um and and and and I think like anybody like you get defensive when you already see yourself as not what someone's calling you, you know what I mean? I always I feel like the best example of this is just like talking to white men about racism. It's scary. It's scary for them to think that they're guilty. You know what I'm saying. So when you start going, na, bro, now you too, do you know what I'm saying? Like that's hard, you know, um, but if you if you down like and like I said, I'm down, So I'm like, nah, show me, you know what i mean? Like, all that to say is delpas. She stood up to him and as as hood as she did, you know what I'm saying, and as like you know, fuck you, fuck you fuck you know I'm saying like whatever it was she met him there. You know what I'm saying is like it's just it's crazy. It's not crazy. I'm not supposed to say that one, but it's it's it's a trip. I think I'm actually glad. Y'all added that to the email. I don't know if it's gonna make this in there, but like that's what I'm saying, that's akin, that's growth, you know what I mean. That's so I was like, you know what, I never I never thought about that. We didn't either, ye bring it up to us. Yeah, it's just been the past couple of years. Yeah, we're all on a journey and in many arenas to unlearned things grow as people. We're all on our own little mail truck to Oakland in a way, making stop taking the long route, the male truck of life man. And then so then they, you know, they do start to find common ground in this like connection. You know, they're they both have like artistic aspirations that are similar. Like she writes poetry, he writes hip hop music. Um or I guess do we even learn that that's what he does? I'm unclear. You hear when you hear the real to reels, when you hear the recordings of his cousin Win the Base, which fun fact, was Coolio. I don't know if you know, did you recognize a voice as soon as he started playing, I was like, that's Coolio. Yeah, so John second thing out everybody, everybody? Yeah, so uh so in what he was saying, yeah that pop was like or Lucky was like I help him with ideas, but it's like it's his So it sounds like he's like I'm more of a producer, you know, got it, got it, got it? Yeah. So even so they have you know similar aspirations, so that you know, they find areas to connect, and then things fall apart again when he does that thing that he keeps doing is like projecting. He blames the time he spent with her for not being able to prevent the death of his cousin, and you know, sabotage is this relationship, and then comes back and apologizes a little, you know, some time later, and she forgives him. I do like the women in the salon. They don't I don't think they even know what the context was, but they were just like I wouldn't have forgiven him. I wouldn't forgive him. They were the best dude and the way. And then before that happened, when I was looking at the cheating girl and she was just like she didn't think I know who that is, I was like, dog, this is the realist right now. So I guess what I'm saying is it was very hard for me to root for this romantic relationship because of how horribly Lucky treats Justice throughout the whole story, and especially at the beginning. And I was far more interested in the friendship between Justice and Aisha than Justice and Lucky. Yeah, I I liked. I mean, I guess the last thing I'll say about Justice and Lucky is again it's like I also was not rooting for their romantic relationship, but I do appreciate how John Singleton kind of gives like context in depth where you need it, where it's like sometimes when a character acts out and lashes out against someone and you have no contact for it whatsoever, you're like, oh, funk that person, Like that's awful. That's not how you treat people. But especially with that, with that sort of last beat where it's like, I mean when when they when they get to Oakland and immediately like something awful happens and Lucky is like reeling and doesn't know what to do, and it's it just felt like, yeah, he was like projecting his anger like frustration at at someone he could hurt in that moment because he was so hurt, and you know, it's like not right and it's not like Justice is deserving of that anger in any way, but in that moment, you're like, oh, he just this anger is just gonna hit someone. The first person that's there is who it's going to hit. And I appreciate it that they took that moment with him in the basement when he's listening back to to Coolio, but that like they give you that moment of vulnerability and he finally does like he's able to cry, but it's only by himself. And just like moments like that, I was like, Oh, that's like I'm still not rooting for them to end up together, but I appreciated the kind of like depth of the storytelling there. I wish we honestly, I wish we got more, you know, more of that with with Justice in general. I yeah, there's I like Justice a lot. I liked and I don't even mind at the movie kind of takes this time and letting you know what her background is, Like I think that could be like a really cool storytelling approach of like you find out something kind of late in the game, you're like, oh, that kind of makes sense for why you are the way you are and why you react the way you do. But I just like, I don't know, Yeah, I wish that we just got to see more of of her outside of the Lucky dynamic, like you were saying, Caitlin like with Ayesha and yeah, yeah, and that like I love how important her poetry is to her, but it's like you don't really get that. It doesn't really come into the story that much where I don't know, Like I like how it's woven in, but there's just I thought there was more opportunities to like dig into that, because it's like you're presented the movie like this is going to be all about her, and then it's kind of it's kind of more it becomes more ensembly, yeah, because then you cut away after the first few minutes of like setting up her exposition and stuff, you cut away from her and you get a bunch of backstory on Lucky and like his job and his daughter and stuff like that. And I was like, oh, we're kind of we're not seeing justice for like many many minutes in a row, which is kind of a weird choice considering she's like poised as being the protagonist of this movie. But I don't know. I I agree that I would have liked to see a little bit more of her interior life. It's the same amount that Lucky gets, because I feel like you get a lot of Lucky's home life and you get a lot of his work life, and you, I guess you do get justice his work life, and you see her at the salon and talking with their coworkers, but you don't like her home life is so solitary, which makes sense later, but you just it just feels like there's a piece of her story that is like I just, yeah, I guess I can't like describe it, right, But no, I never I Yeah, it's it's great. I always I did think that, like the scene when he goes picks up his daughter, and I said, I was like, it's kind of long, like you know, and because I get it that you're he's developing the plot here, but like, yeah, I was like, it's good. It probably could have been shorter, you know. And then the yeah, the glimpse into whatever is going on under the surface with with Justice is just that one scene at home when she's taking care of herself, making the faces and the mirror and stuff like that. We're like where I'm like, oh my gosh, she's depressed, you know what I mean, But I don't know why she's depressed, and maybe you're trying to hold that for the reveal to the end. But uh, yeah, like I I when you said you were interested in her friendship with Aisha a little more that, like, Yeah, that really got my wheel spinning, because that's definitely left unresolved and as we far as we know, Chicago still somewhere on the northern coast Chicago or hooever, still wandering fifteen miles outside of to this day, he'd have lost his job. You know what I'm saying. They where our truck yet delivering a Michael Ravenport. They're really in the middle of nowhere by the time he gets kicked off. Yeah. I think one of the reasons too that I felt like there was something missing with Justices characterization is that a lot of the conversations she has early on with people are her and her boss Jesse, like the owner of the salon, and her and Nisha, but they're the conversations are about you need a man. When are you going to find yourself a good man? Um, which is you know, I guess the very nineties movie thing to do, especially for this genre, but like also I think a very like men writing women thing to do. Yeah, yeah, which I can't meet. I can't argue there. I thought though, like the age of the owner or the person saying that to me is like that's where you get away with it. Because that is something that our aunties would say to us, you know what I'm and so when I so even then when I think back to myself, like they say, when you wat your little girlfriend, you got to a little you keep God, Jay's keep him a little girlfriend, a little pretty little thing, don't you know what I mean? So that's so are are like elders would say stuff, say stuff like that to us. But as a movie choice, I think it's, yeah, that's that's a trip. It's you know, next to a woman who owns her own business, like you know, clearly fine, like she doing her thing, you know what I'm saying. Like, so it's interesting that that would be your responses. And to me, she come off as somebody that like, men are toys. To me, I used them when I feel like them. You know, yeah, I wrote down what she said. She said, a man ain't nothing but a tool. You have to know when to take them out of the box and when to put him back in. And if you lose one, you just go out and get yourself another one. So for that for her to be this like, yeah, just you know, use men whenever you want, which is like also not the best advice, but for her to also be like, but you're never We're gonna find happiness until you find yourself a man who loves you and who you love forever and ever. I was like, mm, there's a little bit of dissonance there. That was where I was just like like I And John Singleton does say in interviews that he he spoke to a lot of the women in his life and women he knew from South Central to build out this world. But I feel like, yeah, it's in those moments where you kind of feel like the male author is is showing a little bit where I like that, Like the three women we get to know, I guess Jesse, Ayisha, and Justice, like they're all very different people and they have really different approaches to life. They have really different outlooks, but you really only get to see those outlooks like either in like quick flashes of friendship, like you get kind of a tease with Justice and Ayisha, but mostly you see how these like really distinct personalities react to relationships with men only. And I would have liked to see these, like I thought, pretty like well crafted characters of like you have a woman who's a little older and owns her own business, and like just men are tools to her. And then you have Ayisha, who's like young and like exploring herself and she's like struggling with alcoholism. And then Justice is so introverted and it's like, you know, let's let's talk about some other stuff too. Like there, those are so different. I also found a ton of joy in the hint of like the the gay relationship between the two male hair stylists. Okay, unclear about what exactly was. So the call was, I don't know if you caught this. The call was when he's on the colonies, he's got aids. Oh, that was the call. That's why he was freaking out and he's fighting with this other stylists. Yeah. Yeah, so that's it's this whole other story happening because again, a very well known trope in inner city living is your male hair stylists is most likely gay, you know, and uh so it's a trope, but it comes from something, you know what I'm saying. So like that moment, to me, I was like, again, this is John Singleton sneaking, sneaking the things in you know what I'm saying, and them kind of dealing with that. I kind of wished, And I mean, I know it's like such a side story. It would have been such a derailment, but I kind of wish they would have liked finished that one a little bit more, you know what I'm saying. But I was like, what is going on here? Yeah, we're looking at it with like post stigma, Like at the time there was still such a stigma, so you know, you can only hand at it, you know again back to like the black male persona of themselves and like things that we're still not ready to admit. You know what I'm saying. I think I think it kind of goes back to that, but I had now, like again looking back, like I appreciate him doing that. You know what I'm saying. I'm glad you like at least started down that road, you know what I'm saying, to like have a little more inclusive understanding of like all that it means to be you know what we are, because it's not like it's not like there wasn't l G B t Q in the nineties, you know what I'm saying, Like it didn't just appear like you know, I've always been here, you know what I'm saying. Yeah, Yeah, I'd be curious what our queer listeners think of that, because I honestly, I'm like, this is blowing my mind because I did not know how to read that scene at all. I could be wrong, I could be absolutely wrong, but like the way that she was patting his back, the way that he was looking, the way that the character was, I was like, this is the type of stuff again, going back to the South Central stuff. This is the type of stuff that in my mind, I'm like, that looks real familiar to me, you know what I mean. And I'd be really interested to hear what your queer audience says too, because again, this was like I'm coming at it from a black lens, you know, and I'm like, that's what it would look like to me, you know what i mean, Like at least then, you know, I'm that's what it was looked like then, you know, especially at a time where queerness and and the like, you know, aids panic was so widely just cooked into media. That's yeah, that's why. That's why it's like I drew that conclusion too, because we was still we're still like I mean, at there was so we was only a few years out of thinking that it only happened to queer people, you know what I'm saying, Like, at the end of the eighties, that's we actually thought that it was only this community, you feel me. So I think that there's like that moment, in my mind, was his attempt to humanize in the way that he knew how you know, I mean, obviously it's you know what I'm saying. It definitely, I'm sure like opened the door, if only by a small crack as far as representation goes, because so many movies of that era, if there was an inclusion of any queer characters, it was they were the butt of a joke, coated tropes. Yeah, all the all the stuff. Yeah, and yeah, so it's like, yo, he's still a trope, you know what I'm saying. So like, but like you said, like I felt as though this was much now. Granted, when I was a preteen, I didn't catch this, Like I felt like I caught it in this in watching it this weekend, you know what I'm saying. Um, And I actually thought, like, that's actually a much more powerful moment than I would have guessed, you know. And and again giving John Singleton his propers as to like how he processes and sneaks in political issues into his movies. I was like, this is probably one of those moments. It's tricky because during that time it was seen as a big risk for filmmakers to include queer characters at all. So yeah, and it might have been that reason that like the fact that we don't even know what that phone call was about because we can only just sort of like speculate and fill in the gaps, just speaks to the fact that like so little time time is dedicated to these characters. That again, was it's like just a very nineties thing. So while I appreciate like the the attempt at inclusion, it's all it's like very much still like a product of its time in terms of like we get so little, it's not that meaningful. Yeah, yeah, Like I would just be curious to know what our listeners think, yea, because it wasn't even reading for me. Maybe it did in the time. And again it's it's like, you know, the frustrating thing here is ultimately like there should have been more projects by queer directors that were championed and and and there were in the nineties, but but certainly not to the extent that was needed, and so it's like, you know, it's not all on John Singleton to do every single thing, but it's but that said, it's like it's yeah, it's that feels kind of like an incremental thing that even like to him. And because at this time, it's like having a black female central character was perceived as a creative risk, and including queer people in any way was perceived as a risk. And so you know, none of it is perfectly done, but most directors wouldn't even touch it. So it's yeah, it's very very complicated. I hope this isn't a derailment, but it might. Well if you ever you start something like that, it probably is right, but take it away. Yeah, in the way that you're saying, like, hey, having a queer main character, having a black female, or just a female lead in general being a risk, Like I wonder sometimes I just I get into these like thought bubbles of like why was why and how did that become a belief? It just seems like of all the places for a prejudice or patriarchy to like put their flag in the sand at like why why this? This seems like you know what what reminded me of this thing. Like I watched um Hysterical on f X about like female comics, and they were talking about this thing like this women aren't funny thing and that like a lot of female comics face and I just feel like this is the most that's impossible to defend, like that trope, like why would you put your flag of all the things to put your flag on you know what I'm saying, So the whole So I felt like that with like female comics not beyond like what is you talking about? Like you can't defend that, Like that's an improvable and why would funny be gendered? Like this is stupid? Like why that one? So to me? So to me when I think about like well, what's the risk to have a gaycare why? Like what like show me the film that failed, Like do you know what I'm saying? That had a woman living, Like what is you talking about? Just so that's what it makes me. That's what it makes me think when you're like, well it was a risk, Like what Like why is that a risk? Like I mean? And what is like that mental? I mean? And what it boils down to is that the people in charge of the film industry are still a majority old, straight white, So it's like, it's it's it's not I think that it's presented as a risk. But we I mean, we've talked about this a zillion times on the show. When there are women centered in stories, when there are black women centers in stories, where there are queer people centered in stories, most of those movies do extraordinarily well. Because that's like, so it's it's it's frustrating to have it presented as like, well, this is a creative risk and you're like, but what about like all five brillion examples, you know, and here are billions of dollars in revenues. That's what I mean. Yeah, what I mean, it's an indefensible position. So I'm like, if you run the studio and you're telling me that's a risk, and then I show you seventeen home runs, then I'm like, what the where are you getting this from? Like that don't why don't you just say what it really is? You know what I'm saying. And so that's the part that like, that's the part that I just go, God, this just blows my mind. Yeah, a derailment was a derailment? No, Well, I mean it's it's it's very relevant to like our our show because it is because, like like you said, Jamie, the people who historically have run the studios run the industry, which is yeah, and still mostly do. This is Hollywood is and always has been, and probably always will be, only concerned about profit margins and the very specific demographic of people who are making the business and creative decisions regarding movies perceive certain stories to be a risk, even though again there's so much evidence to the contrary, verifiably false. But then what will happen is like someone else comes to, you know, the studio and says, Okay, I have an idea for another black superhero movie, for example, and they'll say, well, we already have one of those. We don't right when it's like, can you give a second of thought to this? Yeah, yeah, you already have forty seven thousand white superhero I'm just like, have we seen the Marvel Universe? Like, what is you talking about? There's plenty of space. Yeah, it's not a defensible vision, but I feel like it is, especially in in the nineties. I mean up until pretty recently, it was like not a position that most Hollywood people would question. They're like, oh yeah, totally, yeah, no, there can only be one movie with black women as a protagonist. Totally makes sense, you know, yeah, yeah, It's just like I just I get meta on those things where I'm just like why this, Like why is that the thing? Like there's of all that, like you can't because again, you can't defend this, that's there's clear evidence otherwise I just don't understand why that's the thing. Well, it's the infuriating thing too, because it reaches the point with those kinds of executives where they are like their own prejudices and like discomfort with stories that do not reflect them directly, reaches the point where they're leaving money on the table for kind of reason. Yes, it's yeah, ridiculous. It's very frustrating, and I think both of you are hilarious. Women are funny. Did it we myth busted? Busted? I just feel like, I mean, we're not talking about I know this is not what this episode is about, but it's just it's front of mind because I'm just like, where did y'all even get that? Like? Who? I'm like you, where did you? Like? I feel like y'all y'all just pulled that one out your gask like, there's no you have there's no reason, there was no way you could have ever drawn that conclusion by living on earth, Like, that's just not how you why. I had a guy that I was very briefly dating and not dating after this comment from him say to me specifically, pretty women can't be funny. Um, and I said, number one, thank you for calling me pretty. Number two funk off forever. Yeah, essentially, Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, anyway, poetic justice, any other any other uh one thing I wanted to bring up. Aisha does this thing again. Regina king Is is amazing. She's only twenty two in this movie, I'm like, so good. Her performance is incredible. She's she's so she brings the comedy and humor I mean speaking of women being hilarious. The humor that she brings to every role I've ever seen her in is just like staggering. I love her character. She does do this thing though that that bothered me and it felt, you know, of the of the time, and it's still a thing that that happens today. Where one of the reasons that her relationship with Chicago is is not is not great is that she is constantly be rating him for his inability to maintain an erection and his premature ejaculation. Yeah, which we've talked about on this show pretty recently. Yeah, yeah, we talked about penis size specifically and like how problematic it is to shame people for having a small penis. And then like with Aisha, she's insulting Chicago's like quote manhood and like deliberately trying to emasculate to him for the things that he's experiencing, which is similarly problematic. But that's a complicated issue though, because it's like that in the fact that that is not how you should talk to your partner in no way justifies the way he reacts to it, which is absolutely you know, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, that's the interlocking thing that like it's still like her character is. I mean, it's spot on, like that's that's a hood girl, you know what I'm saying, who in her brain is doing the right thing? Because man at ship, so they only want me for this, So I'm gonna get what I need from him, you know what I'm saying. And it's like it's almost like you know, yeah, it's using the tools of the oppressor against them. Like so this it's that's what she's doing. It's like this is this is what it means to be a boss is you rerate the people up under you. So it's like she's just doing what toxic masculine culture taught you to do. You know what I'm saying, you'd be a person into submission, you know what I'm saying. And I think that that's again that's the part that like, I mean, I grieve now, you know seeing that image. You know what I'm saying. I know it's a movie, but it's like, yeah, you I just I see my childhood, you know what I'm saying. I see I see the girls I grew up with, you know what I'm saying, And uh, I grew up in a mixed black and Latino community, so like like I know this exact version in the Latino world, you know what I'm saying. And it's just coming from this environment that you you this is all you know, Like all you know is like a boss runs things, don't take no ship from nobody. You know, you ain't got no love for house, you know what I'm saying. You just have this like attitude where it's like it's no love. It's pimping out here. I'm getting what I got. You feel me rather than and why should the men get it all? You feel me like I'm gonna do my pimp into you know, and m and I always say, like from a male perspect active, I use the term pimping on purpose because it's like, and we have a whole episode on the Top Politics about it where I'm like something about your soul has to crumble and die to be a good pimp, like you have like you have to be dead inside because of like what you have to do to another human being to be a successful one is like you can't do that and have a soul, Like it's just the two don't work, you know. So to me, it's like that PERSONA is the worst of us, you know what I mean, but it's presented as the most successful of us, the most alluring of us, because it's the most flashy, it's the most you know what I'm saying, Like nobody can hurt you, you know, because we spend so much time hurt all the damn time we heard, you know what I'm saying, So you just take on that that person And and then again, why scho the dudes have all the fun. So rather than like, you know, having this like a little boy, your soul is broke, you know. And I'm not gonna repeat that. It's like you you learned from the worst of us, you know, and and it's it's and you know and and be honest, like you know, lucky for me, Thank thank my lucky stars. Like even though my parents split, you know, my father was around, you know what I mean, so like and I was around a lot of like I knew a lot of dads, you know what I'm saying. And I was able to navigate away from a lot of those choices. But but don't get me wrong, him coming home with like bruised knuckles from working, you know, laying concrete all day, you know what I'm saying to an honest date's pay was very different than that sixty four and Paula, you feel me, came bouncing down the road with all these bad girls on his arms. You feel me, Um, it was very hard, you know what I'm saying. It's why why would you not desire that? You know? Um? So her character all that to say, her character actually kind of grieve me in a lot of ways. Because it just it reminds it reminded me of like just the like the allure you know what I'm saying, of taking on that persona and how it's like it's it's destroying her and it's destroying them, you know what I'm saying, and her alcohol like her, she's hurt, she's in pain. Yeah, I'm saying, So that's why you're doing this. Yeah, that's why I wish that there and this this does seem to be I haven't seen a few titles in like John Singleton's later work, but it's like I know that he's not generally like he doesn't want to spell out the moral for you, like clearly at the end of the movie, and I like totally respect that approach. I do wish that, like you you got like some sort of button for her character because I think that, you know what you're saying, prop makes total sense of like she is using the tools of the oppressor to survive. She's clearly and a lot of pain, and you don't really get a feeling for where she lands, even though it's so clear that she's like really hurting, and it's I think that that expands to what you were saying earlier, Caitlin is like, I think that just by exploring the Justice Aysha friendship and history would have served the movie overall because you just would have gotten more from both of them. Because with Justice, I mean, I think you the outside of that like conversation before she and Lucky Um hook up, the most of what we learned about her is like her telling us, and it's very internal, and she's so withdrawn from the people in her life, and it would have been Yeah, like I would have I like that you have so many different kinds of flawed people in this narrative. But yeah, like with with Ayisha and Justice specifically, I just would have liked to see those those flaws and those sources of hurt and like justices, grief and just like explore them a little more together and and not just see there her manifest through their relationships with men Um, because that's I mean, that scene on the side of the road with Justice and Aisha, that's such a powerful scene and like where you know, Aisha throws up justices like this, you're hurting me and you're hurting yourself and this brings me pain from my life because my mom did this and just all this stuff that you're just like, oh, more of that, Like I just I don't know, because yeah, that that Aisha Chicago storyline. I mean, it's it's so fucked up on on, you know, and and there's different levels of fault at play here, and nothing justifies how he physically abused her. And seeing someone set off by being masculated and responding with violence. Unfortunately, it's like you know, that's that's that doesn't come from nowhere, Like that happens all the time. And yeah, I just I wish that was still shocking. It was. Yeah, I didn't see it coming. I knew it was coming, and I still and I still was like like it's still like shook me. You know, like I know it's a movie and I've seen the movie, and I still can't believe he did that. You know, I do think that that it was like because we talked about on the show a lot of a lot of like because Chicago is kind of just like a guy, you know, he's like a pretty like he's just a guy. He loves his hairbrush. He's not in the union. He's not in the union. That's unfortunately most people. Yeah, but but like I always think it is like an interesting and often effective storytelling mechanism to like have a really common, you know, abuse tactic like Chicago physically lashing out at his partner like attributed to a normal guy, because that is more often than not, you know, like it's not generally supervillains walking through that. It's it's normal people. That it comes from this like very dark place of hurt and in his case, feeling emasculated, and that that that's coming from I don't know, Yeah, not having the like tools, you know, to just first of all, to not be in a relationship in the first place, because like there was y'all should have both known this, like this ain't gonna work. But like horrible humans, I'll say it toxically right, but like to have the tools to just kind of like stop a fight, which is something I feel like, you know, after so many years of marriage, it's we still I still have to catch myself too to be figure out how to stop a fight and go, okay, listen, here's here's what's coming up with me. Here's what it reminds me of. And we will never get any further, you know what I'm saying until this and this is dealt with because that's your your purposefully trying. That's one thing we made a real a big deal about, like was to be like, let's assume that no one's trying to hurt the other, Like I'm not trying to. I'm going to, but like assume that I'm not trying to, you know. But whenever like that feeling feels up where it's like, yeah, I feel like you're trying to hurt me or you're trying to one up me, like to have that like stop, stop the moment, step out of it for a second and just be like, I'm getting too much in the weeds. The point I'm trying to make is like black men need to go to therapy. It's the point I'm trying to make go to therapy. Fellas Like I would extend that to oh man, and I would extend that to all people. I was like, how about literally everybody? Yes, could God go to therapy? What I tell you dig like, oh, oh man, I'm just like if you just go to fam, you just need to go to therapy. You know what I'm saying, Like, just go to therapy, go to therapy. Just go to therapy. Okay, that's a ship. Would this whole movie would have been so much shorter, just wit the therapy that comes up a lot too on the show. We're like, this plot of this movie wouldn't have even happened if every of all these characters were just in therapy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wish. And there's like a part there. I liked that there was early in the movie so clear of an out for justice where her car doesn't start. I was like, oh, I just don't just don't get in the mail truck. Boom problem solved done. Yeah, you could just not go, can't make it. She had to go to her hair show though I know, yeah she did have she did have to get to the hair show. Yeah, she could have called her boss. She could car. Did I get a ride of Yeah, the car won't start? A girl? Can I go with you? Like easy? You wanted to go? But then the whole time and been like why are you? Why are you an old single? Twenty three? Like yeah, actually yeah, see a matter of fact, I guess she did kind of make the most logical choice given the information she had at that moment, you know, which is like look, I'll just I'll just sit here, I'll just write I don't know who the other guy is, plus her best friends. There my best friend. It's only a few hours that she was going to like, there's just a lot of things. No, rus three hours longer, Like why are you going that way? Lucky? Come on? Yeah? Uh? Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie? Um? I wanted to share this quote from writer named Michelle Wallace who originally reviewed this movie uh in Entertainment Weekly. I was looking scrambling, one could say, to find, um, just just an in site from a black feminist of how this movie was received at the time, and I thought her writing was really interesting. So I just wanted to share this quote from her. She says, quote as a consequence of his unwillingness to take this work or indeed black female thought seriously, his poet has no voice, meaning John Singleton. He invents Injustice a character who seems capable of morality and intelligence, but then he gags her unquote. Um yeah, I mean the more I think about this movie, the more I'm like, how much of this is Justice's story and how much of it is it Lucky's still like it doesn't feel Yeah, I don't know, it's it centers around this this romantic relationship where we as we've talked about like don't get to know Justice all that well, I'm not even sure we can call her the protagonists. I think there's like a dual protagonist situation happening. Like I mean, it's it's unsurprising that like a man directing would like gravitate more towards the male character that he had created in terms of like having the audience experienced the story through a man's lens. But they're just felt like a bit of dissonance throughout the story For me, I agree, And I think that that's like the last thought that I had that Again, it's like, I'm very glad that this movie exists. I think that it was, you know, like a valiant effort and iconic in many ways, but particularly because John Singleton literally has the work of Maya Angelou here, who speaks to the black female experience so like eloquently, like most maybe most iconically ever in the US, um, I feel like it almost makes it stick out a little more how we don't know that much about Justice, particularly in the moment where she's reading Phenomenal Woman, one of the most famous poems of all time by anybody that is a about womanhood and about processing your own experiences. And during that sequence, I was like, I just felt like a little unearned because it's such a beautiful poem. And I was like, but I don't understand how this is about justice. I don't understand how Justice would write this poem about everything that just happened, you know what I mean, based right, based on the events of the story up until that point, like Okay, you were screamed at by a man to sex with a few hours later, like in that like, I don't is that like a men's idea of what is empowering for women? I just don't. I mean, and this is like not even a severe like burn to John Singleton's work, but it's because it's you know, it's hard to rise to Maya Angel's level. But I just felt like the story didn't rise to her poetry totally. Yeah, the last thing I wanted to because we've like referenced this earlier, but um Janet act and uh, you know, she grew up very rich, and I was like, oh, how did she prepare for this role? How how did she do it? She hung out with a hairdresser and three women from South Central and eight waffles for three weeks. That's how she prepared. It was just it was such a simple. And then she said, I grew up black and proud, and because I become from a wealthy family doesn't mean I can't relate to a working girl's pain. I was like, I don't know. She she hung out in ate waffles for three weeks and that was her friend. I know. I was just like, you know, there's this feelings of privilege jumping out there. Yeah, cool to not know that. Sorry, no, I'm saying for her, like for her it cool. She had just kept that to herself. Nothing. Yeah, I just say nothing. Oh, you know, it's acting. You know what I'm saying, Like we came from this, but it's not like we were always this, you know, right, Well, you know, I just want to go stay with the fan. I ate waffles for three weeks? What this Crossford? Yes, I canna tell you a funny story. Okay, I know for a fact, because would nobody that was at this thing would ever listen to this. So this is great. Um. Early on in the career, I was on this tour, uh two thousand and twelve, a bunch of us um and uh It just remind me of the Waffles thing. Uh. And I'm the only one on the tour that's from l A. Everybody else is there off from the south, right, give or take a couple of dudes from New York. So it's like our big tour bus tour first, like major thing. We're playing the Palladium. It's incredible, right, So it's like um again, l A boy, I can't believe I get to play the Palladium. This is like bucket list. Oh my god. Right, so we get there. The promoters like, hey, man, okay, it's twelve black men, right, twelve black men and our DJ who's Puerto Rican from New York and the homie Andy from syrac just like just Andy, like just lacrosse playing like Boston strong white boy. Right, But and Andy can wrap his ass off like he wanted those rappers. I know, just white boy from upstate New York. You know what I'm saying. So just so you know him, you already know him, right, So anyway, the promoter walks and he grows, man, I just want to congratulate you guys. You're playing the Palladium. You sold it out, guys, So like, hey, has a gift. You know, I'm gonna give you something just from l A to remember your thing. Right now again, I'm the native, right, everybody else not from l A. So the guy breaks out. He's got stacks of Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles T shirts, right, and he's passing him out. He's like, uh, Waffles roscars right. So we're all looking at each other like did he just give us chicken and waffle T shirts? Did this? Did this promoter just give us that? Right? And and he's like this is awesome, Like oh my god, like what are you guys? Problems? You love Roscoe's, right? Didn't we go there for lunch? Guys? Right? So it's just like this promoter just gave twelve black men a waffle T shirt for selling out his venue. I wasn't mad as much as I was like, this is hilarious. He really like again because I'm from here. So I'm like, Bro, Bro, all the of all the gifts you could have given us, this man gave us. And I get it. It's next door to the padium. There's a Roscoe's next door to I understand, right, I understand, But at Samet, I was just like, Bro Waffles So I hadn't thought about that until you told me Janet Jackson and trep for this show winning eight waffles for three weeks. That's really what y'all think of us, chrazy. Oh my god, I wonder if John Ingleton new that was I don't know, that is hilarious. I just I haven't told that story a year. I'm sorry for resurfacing that. No, it's so good. And me and Hommie Andy, we still laugh at that story because he was just like that was He's like, this was my first lesson, Like because I was like, I don't understand the problem. Like, we love waffles, don't we. I was like, yes, Andy, waffles are delicious, They're amazing. I had some this morning. Yes, and now I'm hungry for waffles. We bought a new waffle iron two. You know what I'm saying, I might actually actually make waffles. Night waffles are special. Seriously, dude, night waffles breakfast for dinner is still a treat my favorite. Well, what's the Bechtel score? The movie does pass the Bechdel tests by our standards, which we forgot to talk about at the top of the show, but considering the like meaningful conversation between two people, two named characters of any marginalized gender. The because Justice and you should talk about hair. They talk about Asia's drinking problem. They do talk about men a lot, Yeah, as do Justice and Jesse. I think they exclusively talk about No, there's a scene where they talk about receipts. Yeah, they talk about receipts and like a rogue line about poetry. And I was like, okay, we got an exchange, but yeah, it wasn't that right. Oh and and and Jesse says something like why are you wearing that hat all the time? And that makes you thinks it's a lot of conversations about men. And then, in terms of our nipple scale zero to five nipples based on an examination of intersectional feminism as it applies to the movie, I feel like this one might get kind of a split down the middle. I feel like, maybe like a two point five where two point five nipples Yes, I'm so sorry to be bisecting a nipple and half harsh yeah to it and a half because yeah, I mean, I like Justice as a character, I love Aisha, I love their friendship. I just think there was opportunities to explore more about these women in the movie. I don't like that there are so many people telling Justice, Oh, you just need a man and then you'll be happy. I also cannot get behind the Justice Lucky relationship, especially after how we see him treating her early on. But I appreciate the general idea of wanting to center a story around black joy and black people falling in love while also showing these characters in their world and their circumstances and providing the context in a nuanced way. So two and a half nipples. I'll give one to Janet Jackson, I'll give one to Regina King, and I'll give one to cousin Pete my half nipple. And we all know Janet's nipple is pretty iconic. Man, it's it's a super Bowl nipple. I would I would recommend there's a really good episode of You're Wrong about about the super Bowl, the Super Bowl nip slip, and how demonized Janet Jackson was after that for no fucking reason. Fortunately, history is now correctly targeting Justin because I was just you know what, yes, because there's he is the villain. Even back then, yeah, even back then, I was like, oh, he digged in a bullet because you you physically did the act, Like what did you? How is this? I don't understand how you getting away with this? Like, yeah, that was I will pride myself being like something about this. How is how is this because she had a jewel on it? That's because it's certain she could put what she wanted and she didn't expected just because you I'm wearing underwear right now that on me, and I expected to be seen. It's clean. I like my underwear, but I don't think it's gonna be on camera. So leave that lady alone, you know it, don't really ill. We'll link that episode in the in the description because it's it's a it's a good one. They go in, uh like they do the deep lore for that story. I'll do, I'll do. I'll do a two point five as well. I think like there, We've talked a lot about it. I'm really glad that this movie exists. I'm glad that justice is centered in the way she is. I appreciate I just generally appreciate John Singleton's work and how he did, like from being a very young artist, like push himself to include more voices in his work. However, imperfectly it was done UM, which I think we've talked a lot about ways that it could have definitely been improved on UM because it's like there there was more to Justice than we got to see. And I feel like by trimming out some of the like excess talk about men and we could have, you know, more effectively explored her story. You could have explored the friendship with her and Aisha, and there was just like a lot left on the table. I felt like that it would have been really interesting to explore. And I also think that, you know, I would imagine and even though you know, John Singleton spoke with a number of black women to put this story together, you know, having black women in creative roles certainly would have served to fix some of these problems as well, I would imagine. But for for its time, I think it's doing a lot. I'm it was. It was really interesting to revisit. I'm not rooting for this relationship, but I'm rooting for the individuals involved. So I'll give it two point five one of justice, one of Ayesha, and then I'll give I'll give the half to the mail truck uh sacred vessel. Uh. Yeah, I actually I have no disagreements with your your assessment. Every time you keep saying you're not rooting for Justice and Lucky. In my brain, I keep going, Janet Jackson in Tupac, which is what I'm rooting for, you know what I'm saying, Because I'm like, I'm actually am rooting for Janet Jackson in Tupacs. And then I'm like, oh, which means I'm not rooting for Justice and Lucky, you know what I'm saying. So like I think that, So yeah, I think that. I guess I'll go to two point five too, because um, I feel like it's the best attempt of a man telling a woman's story. And do you understand I'm trying to say here, like if you if you're gonna do it, this is probably as good as it's gonna get, you know, because because it's not your story, you know what I'm saying. So, because I'm looking at myself going, I probably would have made a lot of the same decisions too, because I just I only know this from observing y'all, you know, from like that's that's what I see you guys talk about at the hair salon. You know what I'm saying, you know, And yeah, that's was like my auntie. You know what I'm saying, I know a girl like this, you know what I'm saying. I think it's because of that. So because I'm not them, you know what I mean, So I would if I were to tell the story, it would be that. So so I feel like, yeah, it's like this is the best any a man could get, you know, short of just saying handing the reins over to being like, hey can you write this? Can you write these characters? You know what I'm saying, uh, which would probably you know, obviously push it over the half mark at least, right, Yeah, I think the uh, the sort of the sage kind of Obi wan kenobi, you know, tone of the shop owner is at least worth a nipple. You know, she's a mentor, you know, maybe not the best one, but she is one, you know. You know. I think that that what pushes it over the top is Maya Angelo. And then yeah, so so I feel like I was gonna say I might that might give me a two point seven five because of because of the three mamas sitting at the table basically calling the girls out on their ship. You know what I'm saying, That was just like that girl ain't mo married than the man on the moon, like you was not married, look at her for you know what I'm saying, Like, so the mama's the mama's doing it. But then the mama's being as old school is like my man would never let me walk around here with you know what I mean. So it's like that's why you don't get a full nip, you know what I'm saying, because you're still perpetuating you know what I'm saying, stuff we're trying to get away from. But that moment of those you know, mother's again is like the authenticity of that to me is something that's so important, you know. But again it's like I could still see how that's a boy talking about his grandmother's you know what I mean, it's not necessarily a daughter talking about her grandmother's. You feel me so Like so I could still so I think that at the end of the day, it's a two five so or two point seven five, I think. So I'm gonna go nipple for Janet. Uh, it's gonna get hard here, so I'm gonna have to go nipple for um Aisha. I think half a nip goes to the store owner. I keep forgetting her name, Jesse, Jesse, half a nip goes to Jesse, and then the three four goes to Maya Angelo. Yeah, well probably, thank you so much. God, I have so much respect for you guys. I've been fan boying all week, telling my wife, like, dude, I get to be on this show. I'm so nervous they're gonna like this is gonna be so bad. I'm gonna put my foot in my mouth. So I thought about thinking. I thought about it at first. I was like, what is the most out of pocket horrible things. I'm just gonna open with it. Just get it out of the way, say something so wrong out the box, and just be done. I think you did absolutely fantastic. Oh my god, thank you so much. And tell us about your stuff, your social media, your book, your podcast. Yeah. The book goes along with like a series of eat like music EPs I've been dropping. They're all called terraform. It's um some of the stuff we're talking about here kind of like in a metaway kind of goes with the terraform is just you know, science fiction nerd word. When you find a distant planet, what you gotta do to make it livable. So the poetry and the music is around like, well, what if we did that here? Because Earth is becoming less and less livable, whether it's physical, uh like geologically or just socio culturally and interpersonally, just all these things and just really thinking, Okay, what if we could just start over and build this, build our civilization from scratch? Like what will we keep? What do we need to throw away? What? What are we not imagining? You know, like if we limited ourselves, Like for example, in the last in the last chapter of this poetry book, I asked the question that kind of like I feel like this this year podcast asked is like, imagine a world without patriarchy? And so somebody asked me that and I was like I can't, yeah, And it's just like I was like, I honestly can't because I might say, imagine where without misogyny, patriarchy, racism, imagine it? What what would it look like? And I was like, I was like, jazz came from racism because like because you segregated, you segregated. I was like, that's we came from. So I was like, dang, like I have a limited imagination, you know, so so so like, but what if we could, what is the world without patriarchy? What would have never happened? Where would we have gotten to? You know what I'm saying? So like so that so that a lot of ways, the book is like it's a challenge, you know, um, and the music is a challenge to like, yeah, just like imagine a better future, build a livable world. So that's the that's the poetry in the book, the music in the podcast, Uh, hood politics. I just believe like if you understand gang life, you understand geo politics. And even if it's even not even just gang life, if you survived eighth grade, you know, if you like figured out which like if you want if you knew how to navigate mean girls, or like just which table to sit at at lunch when you were a freshman, you know, you have to figure out which table to sit at, Like you actually understand geo politics. So I'm essentially like it's like thirty minutes of whatever like conversation during the zigeist that like you kind of feel like maybe I know what this is, but maybe I don't. I'm like, you know what it is, and I'm just gonna like lay it out in like kind of hood terms. You know, that's fun amazing, it's great. Thank you again so much for being here. What a treat it's been. Come back any time. Don't even play with me like that, because I will absolutely come back. I think you guys are like, I'm this is no gas Like. I think y'all are brilliant, and I think you're so fucking funny. But and the funny is is like it's smart, Like that's the I'm just like, god, these girls are it's just so funny. So yeah, so I appreciate you all. Man. Oh my goodness, I'm blessing you're not shut up. I can see you. I'm taking screenshots kin tote. Well, thank you. You're amazing. We're also big fans whatever than you. You can follow us on social media Twitter, Instagram, at pecktel Cast. We've got our Matreon at patreon dot com slash pecketel Cast, and it's five dollars a month and it's to bonus episodes, plus access to the back catalog and our merch store t public dot com slash the pectel Cast. We just did bored at two on the Matreon. If that's something that intrigues you, oh my god, I don't think I can handle that one um and let's all go write some poetry. Let's do it. Bye bye,