191 - Committee participation with Birgitte Messerschmidt and Kees Both

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody, welcome to the Fire Science Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Giving back to community is something most of us would like to do.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think even all of us would like to do.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My way of giving back is through the podcast, papers and other activities, but for many people, the way they would prefer to give back to the community is through participation within different bodies that create the body of knowledge that we all use and benefit from later, be it standardization committees, technical committees, advisory boards and so forth, and actually I've been asked multiple times to cover the subject of participating in those committees.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>For example, I've received a very nice letter from a listener, kevin Feek, who described his participation in NFPA committees and how he changed his life, and I must say stories like this that someone has just joined the committee without any expectations and then it became a significant part of their lives is very common.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would say it's also my story.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In 2012, I believe, I've joined the CEN, tc191, sc1, workgroup 5 and 9 committees, and that was something that really changed my life, my professional career.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I was exposed to new knowledge, new people.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've met fantastic people, good friends and still in touch with them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So definitely it was something I've benefited from largely and I think it's worth talking about this and to talk about this subject, I've invited the person that I think is in every single committee that exists in this universe not just kidding, but he's definitely involved in in so many and in such a variety.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's really impressive.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My good friend, keys both he's been a guest on this podcast before and alongside a colleague who I know that has been a part of many uh committees in europe, and now, behind the ocean, she's one of the directors at nfpa a good friend, bergitte messerschmidt, and together we'll try to tell you what were our journeys to different standardization and technical committees, what a researcher or an engineer can gain from participating in those and, in general, the goods and a bit of the bad sides of participating.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I'll spoil it a bit for you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's definitely worth it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the Firesize Show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>My name is Wojciech Wigrzyński and I will be your host.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This podcast is brought to you in collaboration with Ofar Consultants, a multi-award winning independent consultancy dedicated to addressing fire safety challenges.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Established in the UK in 2016 as a startup business of two highly experienced fire engineering consultants, the business has grown phenomenally to eight offices across the country, from Edinburgh to Bath.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Colleagues are on a mission to continually explore the challenges that fire creates for clients and society, applying the best research experience and diligence for effective, tailored solution.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In 2025, there will be new opportunities to work with OFR.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Ofr will grow its team once more and is keen to hear from industry professionals who would like to collaborate on fire safety features this year.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Get in touch at OFRConsultantscom.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody, I am joined here today by Birgit Messerschmidt, director at NFPA.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hey, birgit.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Hey Wojciech, Nice to be back.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome back and another comeback to the show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Unsuccessful bridge salesman who entered the fire laboratory and never left it, Keith Spoth.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hey Keith, Hello Jack, Can I have a good day?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Nice to be back as well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you guys for joining me on this podcast episode and this was requested by audience multiple times since I started my podcast journey and we will be talking about community participation.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>A lot of people are asking to cover this part of our community.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There are a lot of ways for our engineers can give back to the community and I believe participating in various technical committees that exist in our space is one way of giving back and I would love to give it a thorough discussion about pros and cons of participating and how to do it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But to settle the playing field, what committees you are or were a part of, let's try to list them and please make it like less than five minutes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Birgit, maybe we'll start with you and he makes his mind off the endless list of committees.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Okay, well, I'm no longer active in standardization committees.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>The interesting thing is, as one of the people working at NFPA, I cannot be active in the NFPA standardization committees.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>We support them with the work that we do in research.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>When the technical committees have things they want us to look at, then we look at it and provide the answer back, but I cannot vote on NFPA standards as an NFPA employee.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's interesting yeah.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So that's some of the interesting parts of that.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So I actually haven't been active in committees for more than eight years, but before that I was very active in committees.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I started out early in my career.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So I started out in Danish standards in the mirror committee to SENT-TC-127.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>And from there I became a member of SENT-TC-127, particularly the working group on reaction to fire I think it's working group four I don't know if they've changed names since and also into ISO-TC-92, subcommittee one, also on reaction to fire, was active there, later also in subcommittee three on smoke toxicity, and then I've been active in a notified bodies group etc.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's what I can think of right now that I've been active in so long story short CN committees and ISO committees for fire safety engineering and now, even though you're not a member, a lot of knowledge on NFPA committees.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Definitely some knowledge on that.

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<v Kees Both>yes, and a kiss for you, thank you.

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<v Kees Both>And Birgitta was just a bit ahead of me, although she's a bit younger than I am.

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<v Kees Both>She paved the path and I've always sort of admired what she had been doing.

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<v Kees Both>So at a certain point there was when I switched jobs from the flyer laboratory and went to the dark side of industry, so to speak.

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<v Kees Both>One of my, say, mentors there was a guy, stefan van Houten, and I think Birgitte knows him well, and I was about to step into his footsteps and he was also in CEN not necessarily in ISO or in US standards and I had a bit of a free roll when I came, managed the laboratory and so forth and gradually I rolled into CEN standards.

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<v Kees Both>It was not unknown to me.

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<v Kees Both>I did partake in some other Dutch standards committees in SEND, but not so much.

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<v Kees Both>So when I started this adventure I call it an adventure I was like okay, there's a new world sort of opening for me.

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<v Kees Both>A lot of people from the network were already there, but I also came to know a lot of other people with very different opinions.

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<v Kees Both>And if I can say one thing to make people enthusiastic about this, it's certainly a stepping stone to build your network or to meet people basically, and that's if standardization is anything.

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<v Kees Both>It's about meeting people from different cultures with different opinions, different views on, say, a definition of what, for example, a rate of heat release actually is, and then we should measure it.

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<v Kees Both>So that's a whole new world that sort of opened to me.

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<v Kees Both>And one thing that I learned was that, okay, we are far advanced, we think, in Europe, but a small step that would be to ISO standards, and from there it was not too difficult to explain to my superiors that it would also be of interest to watch what the Americans are doing.

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<v Kees Both>And I had already one say nice experience in NFPA.

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<v Kees Both>I must say 502, and Brigetti, you know it well, it's tunnels and as you know, I have one specific hobby, or a tunnel vision, if you like.

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<v Kees Both>So it was NFPA 502 that really inspired me also to say, well, guys, what NFPA is doing, what ASTM are doing and what UL are doing, that's of interest also to what we're doing here in Europe, if not the global community.

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<v Kees Both>And then one thing sort of escalated I started to become an active member in ASTM, expanded the NFPA to 550 and 1700.

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<v Kees Both>Actually, as we speak, 1700 is meeting this week but unfortunately it can come to the US.

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<v Kees Both>So I'm in a number of ASTM committees as well and because of my, say, love and appetite for this and FIRE soon, I was asked also to do something on, say, fiber cement and gypsum, and then it sort of exploded.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So okay, a good overview of the committees.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, especially that you have this astm nfp experience firsthand.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I I appreciate that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I knew that you and cn are very close together and I personally been part of cn but I was a part of groups for smoke control and that was was a big part of my life Still is important to me, but not active that much for the recent years.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And outside of technical committees standardization committees I also participate in adventures like SFP technical committees, for example, rewriting the risk guidebook.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's very important.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's going to be a standard actually soon.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I also participated in networks like COST, which is some sort of committees for scientists perhaps different way of collaborating, but the same concept.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You put punch people in a room to convene on important stuff.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, having this in mind, this decades of experience we shared together in those standardization committees Kis, you said it's networking.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So for a young person that just enters the room, how does participating in committee provide you a networking opportunity?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How does it translate to your network really?

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<v Kees Both>So I would think that well, for example, you mentioned SFPE right.

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<v Kees Both>So that would be predominantly a network of peers.

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<v Kees Both>So you would meet other professional engineers or consultants In CEN or in ISO or NFPA, for example.

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<v Kees Both>It would be a bit broader.

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<v Kees Both>So you would be more exposed to other stakeholders, whether it's producers, like I am, or a fire laboratory or a certification body or the standards bodies themselves.

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<v Kees Both>So you might meet Brigitte, although she might be a guest and not partaking actually in the meetings, so you would meet people from the fire brigade.

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<v Kees Both>You would meet all kinds of people who would not necessarily be sitting as a VE-member or another, say, say, association.

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<v Kees Both>You would also be well exposed to other narratives and things that people say, because they have different agendas, obviously, when they speak as peers and direct colleagues amongst each other, or when they have to, say, make make clear what the position of a certain stakeholder group actually actually is.

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<v Kees Both>So it's it's about meeting different people, not necessarily also from different countries.

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<v Kees Both>So when you are an SFP member, you also meet people from different countries, but you really see people coming from a different approaching.

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<v Kees Both>I would say the diamond from a different angle and then see the slinkering and slunkering from a different angle.

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<v Kees Both>So that's how I would like to say standardization work is actually part of looking at a problem from different perspectives and trying to solve it from different stakeholder perspective.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But how would that be different from a conference?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's say you also meet different people with different viewpoints on conference.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Would this setting be different to a conference?

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<v Kees Both>You wouldn't necessarily have a goal right.

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<v Kees Both>So a conference is about meeting people and more or less a one-way direction of what, exposing the audience to new findings, and you can have some critique on it, obviously, but it doesn't necessarily come to, it's not necessarily with an aim to come at a, a standard, so a common agreement on how to move things forward.

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<v Kees Both>So conferences have their their part, obviously, but it's it's a different aim that you have.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's a very different aim just to jump in there.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Also, a standardization committee group is smaller than a conference.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>There's a lot of people and who am I going to connect with?

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>From my own experience?

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I mean, I came into standardization very early in my career and one of the things is you walk into the room as a very young one with people who are very, very experienced, and that is a great opportunity to learn from people that have that experience that yourself you're not there yet.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So it's a great opportunity to connect with people that have that kind of experience that you're looking to gain.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's also, as Kees was saying, the fact that you're working on something together and often when you come in as one of the young ones in the technical committees, it's often because you have worked on some research that is needed by the technical committee.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>This is actually your opportunity to show your work to some of the people in power within FIRE and connect with them and show them what it is you've been working on and then enjoy seeing that what you have worked on now makes it into the process of where it becomes usable to people out in the field.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>That is really what I see as some of the extremely fascinating points as being some of the young ones stepping in to the standards committees.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think you both nailed it and I can relate this from my experience.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was exactly what Keith said meeting people with a common goal.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it's not like, while I enjoy conference settings, for sure, everyone there comes with their own ideas, problems, their own focus.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the committee group, you are sorted by focus, like everyone shares the same focus.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Everyone is interested in this one particular problem for which the committee is, and if you're not, you are sorted by focus.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like everyone shares the same focus.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Everyone is interested in this one particular problem for which the committee is, and if you're not, you probably should not be on the committee.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So everyone has this common denominator for everything you say.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And like you said I resonate with that very strongly that as a young researcher, you start to feel relevancy of your own work and also you know you can prove yourself and present some really valuable insight into the committee.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But you're also pre-validated.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you're in the committee, you've already been vetted.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know that you will be an important member of that committee, like my experience is whenever a new person came into the group.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not that the person sits on the edge of the table and then listens to the conversations for the next five meetings until they become relevant.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They are relevant from day one.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Was this your experience also, Kies, when you were joining new committees?

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<v Kees Both>Yes, absolutely, and I would well.

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<v Kees Both>Perhaps it's a bit, I don't know, pushy to say it, but you perhaps even have an obligation to share your knowledge, not only on the conference, because there people will be eagerly absorbing the knowledge that you bring to the table, but then to take it to the next level and make sure that it's somewhere embedded in regulations or standards.

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<v Kees Both>And whatever a standard actually is.

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<v Kees Both>It can be a fire engineering standard, it can be a testing standard, it can be both.

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<v Kees Both>You could argue and make a case that whatever you bring to the table, as a young researcher you have some obligation to see it true to the actual embedding in everyday use of engineers or who else is using it in the field.

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<v Kees Both>So that's something to bear in mind.

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<v Kees Both>And for that to happen you can't just only present at a conference.

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<v Kees Both>You also make sure that it's well heard of, at least make it aware to people in SAN and ISO and NFPA and whatnot.

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<v Kees Both>And you'll be surprised and Birgitte, you can vouch for this because I entered a bit later You'd be surprised as to how much you will be welcomed as a young engineer.

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<v Kees Both>But all of the old people like us, us now we can say that you made the joke before we start the recording.

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<v Kees Both>Right, all of us fall in love with the youngsters who come with with their research to the table.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We've all been there so we know what it's like basically a part of the reason is also that there's it's a lot of work to do in the committee, especially when you have to supply this technical supplementary material to guide the decisions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So while the meeting can take you one, two, three days, it sometimes takes weeks or months preparing for the meeting with the material.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if you can drop this on a youngster, all of us have a lot on our tables.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If there's someone willing to do the job, I'm not going to stop them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I will look into that job, but I will allow them, I will give them this ability to showcase their abilities while creating good technical feedback to guide the decisions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I think this presenting and discussing this during a committee meeting is very different than the conference.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In conference, you know you present, you have five questions in the end.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They can be nice questions, they can be bad questions, it doesn't matter.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It takes you five minutes to answer.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You go eat your dinner and move on to something else.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On the committee, you can spend three hours talking about the simulation In the absolute deepest details and you really learn a lot from those conversations.

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<v Kees Both>If I could tell you the anecdote, maybe not now, but we've had like two or three years of meetings well, not obviously a thousand days, but three years of meetings on two words and an or relating to deflection and deflection rate as to load-bearing capacity criteria.

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<v Kees Both>Can you imagine three years on this?

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<v Kees Both>And when I say it like this, you're like okay, I hope people are not switching off from the broadcast now Because there's a story to tell.

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<v Kees Both>One other thing to add to this what people learn and hand it over then to Brigitte you learn additional skills as a youngster, because to convince your peers of your scientific work, that's one thing, but to convince people who are not so scientific or have a completely different viewpoint, you need argumentation skills, you need to listen and you need to argue and to repeat that with different words.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's a really good point there that you're making.

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<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>You have to really learn how to present to all kinds of different people in the technical committee and you can spend so much time on one word.

00:18:21.994 --> 00:18:28.513
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>And when you come in as a young researcher it's like well, I've done all this research and I know this is right from what I've worked on.

00:18:28.513 --> 00:18:39.857
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It can be tough suddenly to get that kind of feedback and discussion that suddenly drills down into a nitty gritty little thing where you go like why is this important?

00:18:39.857 --> 00:18:43.729
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>A nitty gritty little thing where you go like why is this important?

00:18:43.749 --> 00:18:52.016
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>And this is where your patience has to come in play and understand the role that the standards are playing and the importance of the standard Because it's.

00:18:52.016 --> 00:19:08.535
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>One thing is that you come in with the technical and the technical research and all that is correct and so on, but the role that the standards play in the world is so much bigger and therefore suddenly, is it an and or an or?

00:19:08.535 --> 00:19:43.492
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It can be market share, and for a young researcher to accept that and understand that is a learning process that is extremely important and that is where try not to lose your patience with the standard process but actually start enjoying seeing that well, when I take my work from here, from the pure technical, bring it into a group of very different people that are going to try and make this into a standard, it suddenly becomes psychological as well.

00:19:45.009 --> 00:19:50.684
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, I have also this experience joining the technical committee as a very young engineer.

00:19:51.145 --> 00:20:06.886
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>At that point I was not a scientist yet and I was very let's say, I was actually quite experienced in designing systems, but in my own country, you know, following a very specific set of rules and ways of how to design that were very specific for my country.

00:20:07.529 --> 00:20:18.891
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then I am dropped into a group of various people coming from different backgrounds, coming from different countries, with their own ideas how to design systems, and apparently their systems are very different than mine.

00:20:18.891 --> 00:20:36.464
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, things that I take for granted in my systems may not necessarily be relevant to theirs, you know so I have to now look at everything I do from a different lens that actually there are other ways to do it, there are other ways to understand that there are things that I consider most important.

00:20:36.464 --> 00:20:44.724
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>For someone other it's not, and we're writing a common standard that's like European standard, that it should share all those perspectives.

00:20:44.724 --> 00:20:52.151
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was very interesting because that was the first real environment in which I was really exposed to those differences.

00:20:52.151 --> 00:21:00.751
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps, if you're like I am a FSE student and you have this multicultural you know experience of traveling across Europe, studying with other people.

00:21:00.751 --> 00:21:04.358
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps that's the group of people that already immediately has this.

00:21:09.384 --> 00:21:11.009
<v Kees Both>But for me, an engineer coming from Poland, that was very interesting to discover.

00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:30.519
<v Kees Both>If anyone can tell, it's you on the call now because you have the experience coming from Denmark and moving to the US where you think, ah, it's also a Western civilized country, but the modus operandi is quite different, even to become a member, say, of NFPA, or ASTN for that matter.

00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:32.653
<v Kees Both>But that's a nuance perhaps.

00:21:32.653 --> 00:21:34.525
<v Kees Both>But the building codes are different.

00:21:34.525 --> 00:21:39.758
<v Kees Both>The way people's stakeholders are addressed and how they communicate is different.

00:21:39.758 --> 00:21:43.248
<v Kees Both>So maybe you can shed some light on that, because it might be of interest.

00:21:43.849 --> 00:22:13.118
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Well again, as not being an active member of NFPA committees because I don't have that practical experience from it, but from seeing it in functions from the other side, I do see the significant difference to the work that we are doing in Europe and in CEN and where in CEN you come in through your national standards committees and therefore whoever participates is designed by your national standards committee.

00:22:13.785 --> 00:22:31.921
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>They can agree on a balance or not, and then when it gets into the CEN committee, suddenly you can have a committee that might be very heavy on one side and not other opinions as much, because there's not an overarching look at how this committee combined.

00:22:31.921 --> 00:22:47.336
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>At NFPA we are very much about a balanced committee, so there's not more than one third of a committee can come from one specific group and we do look into that, we are very clear about that and I think that makes a huge difference in the work.

00:22:47.336 --> 00:22:48.730
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>What do we mean by one group?

00:22:48.730 --> 00:22:58.394
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>That can be manufacturers, it can be authorities having jurisdiction, it can be consumers, it can be test laboratories etc.

00:22:58.394 --> 00:23:03.781
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So we have nine different categories and none of those can have more than one third.

00:23:04.182 --> 00:23:04.845
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's very interesting.

00:23:05.586 --> 00:23:18.250
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>And I think that is extremely interesting and an important difference because I must admit, like KS now is representing, as you said, the dark side, industry I did for many years as well.

00:23:18.250 --> 00:23:28.233
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I did standardization, first from DBI, so the neutral side, and then for Rockwall for many years dark side of industry.

00:23:28.233 --> 00:23:35.855
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So I know both sides of this and I know why industry has a significant interest in the standardization work.

00:23:35.855 --> 00:23:46.816
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>But it also, through experience, have been sitting in committees where we've been too many industry people and not enough people from, for instance, the laboratories or from research organizations.

00:23:46.816 --> 00:23:52.602
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>You know where we could have these young researchers coming in with the information that we needed.

00:23:52.602 --> 00:24:07.914
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Between the process that we're running here compared to the process that we're running in Europe, and then, just generally, as I've said before, right in the US, I always thought that coming over here must be easier.

00:24:07.914 --> 00:24:12.017
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>One country, we would have just one regulation, et cetera.

00:24:12.184 --> 00:24:16.452
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's like no, no no it's more complicated because each state does their own thing.

00:24:16.724 --> 00:24:25.373
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Brigitte took me into, like she twisted the question, but she brought me into a very important subject of matter, which is how you become a part of a committee.

00:24:25.373 --> 00:24:31.009
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you said, cn, you get nominated by your national committee and you're kind of a representative of your country.

00:24:31.009 --> 00:24:34.583
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You could consider yourself like that In NFPA.

00:24:34.583 --> 00:24:36.351
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How do you become a member of a committee?

00:24:37.152 --> 00:24:44.993
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>You go on our website and go in and see what you know apply to become a member and then you're appointed by our standards council.

00:24:44.993 --> 00:24:50.414
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So it goes to them and they appoint, and that's where they then can see well, actually in this committee.

00:24:50.414 --> 00:24:58.294
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Now, if KS wanted to go into a committee and this committee is already has a heavy load of manufacturers it would be able.

00:24:58.294 --> 00:25:01.513
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>At the moment, there is not a seat available in this group.

00:25:03.385 --> 00:25:09.138
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it would be like pushing yourself forward and then you're assessed whether you're a good match for the committee.

00:25:09.138 --> 00:25:12.454
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I would say SFP committees are very similar.

00:25:12.454 --> 00:25:18.337
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you're a member of SFP, there are multiple technical committees that you can apply for.

00:25:18.337 --> 00:25:23.334
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You send an email to the admin of that group, you get evaluated and eventually you get in.

00:25:23.334 --> 00:25:27.876
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If a completely new committee forms, they often would scout for members.

00:25:28.105 --> 00:25:31.770
<v Kees Both>That's how I remember this risk what NFPA also does.

00:25:31.770 --> 00:25:36.892
<v Kees Both>So the committee actively searching new yeah, but especially when the new forms.

00:25:37.746 --> 00:25:40.134
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you need a first group of people to form a committee.

00:25:40.134 --> 00:25:46.055
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So then it's probably the easiest to join, and for ISO, I believe it's also a national nomination.

00:25:47.411 --> 00:25:48.679
<v Kees Both>Yes, same as POSEN.

00:25:48.679 --> 00:26:02.871
<v Kees Both>Well, maybe it's nice if I may get to advertise a bit for ASTM, because they also have this balance of, I think, nine stakeholder groups and they carefully monitor that there's not an unbalance in this.

00:26:02.871 --> 00:26:10.515
<v Kees Both>But you can always become a member, but you are not granted voting rights, so you're the backbencher, so to speak.

00:26:10.515 --> 00:26:14.747
<v Kees Both>But that gives you access to all the meetings and to everything At NFPA.

00:26:14.747 --> 00:26:18.070
<v Kees Both>You can always be invited as a guest, so that will be my first step.

00:26:18.070 --> 00:26:21.215
<v Kees Both>That's actually how I entered NFPA 502.

00:26:21.215 --> 00:26:22.405
<v Kees Both>As a guest.

00:26:22.405 --> 00:26:23.087
<v Kees Both>So that would be my first step.

00:26:23.087 --> 00:26:24.491
<v Kees Both>That's actually how I entered NFPA 502.

00:26:24.511 --> 00:26:27.179
<v Kees Both>So I was asked by the then chair of the NFPA 502 committee to appear as a guest, so I was.

00:26:27.179 --> 00:26:38.432
<v Kees Both>Then the meeting room was too small, I was literally a backbencher, but soon I was promoted to the table when someone had to leave early, so I was allowed to literally sit at the table.

00:26:38.432 --> 00:26:40.438
<v Kees Both>But it starts there.

00:26:40.438 --> 00:26:52.286
<v Kees Both>You have to be a bit bold and brave and and just to come to mention it, perhaps forget that may be a role that that you and I and maybe some others can play as well, like mentors or younger people that are entering for the first time.

00:26:52.286 --> 00:26:53.007
<v Kees Both>In a comedy.

00:26:53.007 --> 00:27:05.333
<v Kees Both>It would be good that comedies have like a mentor that that would allow people, freshmen or fresh ladies, to enter a a committee and to give them a bit of guidance how to behave, where to sit, what not to do.

00:27:05.834 --> 00:27:08.146
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I think that's a really, really good point, kees.

00:27:08.146 --> 00:27:10.073
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I think that is truly needed.

00:27:10.073 --> 00:27:19.518
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I've been lucky through my career to have some mentors when I was younger in my colleagues and that truly helped me in the standardization work.

00:27:19.518 --> 00:27:28.395
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>But I think some of the points you point out, casey, about the openness of the way that US do standardization is very different from Europe.

00:27:28.395 --> 00:27:29.770
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Also, anyone can comment.

00:27:29.770 --> 00:27:32.534
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Anyone can send comments to an NFPA standard.

00:27:32.534 --> 00:27:34.592
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's a totally open process.

00:27:34.592 --> 00:27:37.875
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Just go on the website, see where the standards are.

00:27:37.875 --> 00:27:41.255
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Every standard is being revised every three to five years.

00:27:41.255 --> 00:27:47.690
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>You can go in and see where it is in the cycle and if there's open for comments, everybody can send in comments.

00:27:48.291 --> 00:27:50.057
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We have the same in SFP.

00:27:50.057 --> 00:28:02.227
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>All the outcomes of those committees would go through public questions period where anyone can read the standard, Even though if the standard will cost or the book will cost $200 after it's being published.

00:28:02.227 --> 00:28:06.729
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They just give the draft version for free for everyone to comment, to gather feedback.

00:28:06.729 --> 00:28:17.856
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know it's also a good way to familiarize yourself with documents and understand where the world is moving towards, and also a stepping foot, you know, for future engagements.

00:28:17.856 --> 00:28:25.731
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So if you're commenting really well, I would assume you would eventually be invited to the committee because you have smart things to say, right?

00:28:26.173 --> 00:28:28.993
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Exactly, or you can just participate as a guest.

00:28:28.993 --> 00:28:34.946
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>If you've commented and you can come in as an observer, connect with.

00:28:34.946 --> 00:28:37.192
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's open on our website.

00:28:37.192 --> 00:28:41.070
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Who is the chair, who is the staff liaison from NFPA and who's the member of the?

00:28:41.070 --> 00:28:46.777
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Is the staff liaison from NFPA and who is the member of the committee and you can contact them, say I have some things I would like to present to the committee, et cetera.

00:28:46.777 --> 00:28:53.750
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So it has fascinated me to see how open the process is compared to the experience that I've had in Sandvik.

00:28:53.924 --> 00:28:55.151
<v Kees Both>And nevertheless manageable.

00:28:55.151 --> 00:29:00.176
<v Kees Both>So it's very open indeed, but nevertheless it seems manageable.

00:29:00.176 --> 00:29:08.891
<v Kees Both>So it's not like you open it up and then you've opened up the can of worms and you can't handle it.

00:29:08.891 --> 00:29:13.097
<v Kees Both>Apparently, you found a modus operandi that actually works, so I'm fond of the US way of doing things.

00:29:13.097 --> 00:29:24.736
<v Kees Both>That said, it's not so easy and there are a lot of people perhaps not unwilling to change this also in in europe.

00:29:24.736 --> 00:29:26.502
<v Kees Both>But this, this will take perhaps another generation before this, this happens.

00:29:26.522 --> 00:29:37.652
<v Kees Both>So this, this procedure, like you, apply to a national committee where there is perhaps a bit more, say, emphasis on safeguarding the, the balance in in the national merit committees.

00:29:37.652 --> 00:29:38.593
<v Kees Both>But then it comes.

00:29:38.593 --> 00:29:41.920
<v Kees Both>So the people who can then go to send an ISO.

00:29:41.920 --> 00:29:51.113
<v Kees Both>Well, you can imagine that ISO the abbreviation sometimes is nicknamed as International Sightseeing Organization you do need a budget to travel.

00:29:51.113 --> 00:29:55.605
<v Kees Both>Well, we've had, obviously, covid, where there were a lot of digital meetings only.

00:29:55.605 --> 00:30:00.771
<v Kees Both>But that has a flip side also because it's you can say you go to the bar because it's.

00:30:00.771 --> 00:30:04.173
<v Kees Both>You can say, you, you go to the book up to the bar because it's five o'clock somewhere on the world.

00:30:04.173 --> 00:30:12.037
<v Kees Both>But yeah, when it's five o'clock in new zealand it's a different time of the day over here in europe, and even different than the us, right.

00:30:12.037 --> 00:30:15.894
<v Kees Both>So these virtual meetings are not not ideal for standardization work.

00:30:15.914 --> 00:30:27.141
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That would I do no, I agree that in-person meetings were especially that because of this discussion and everyone is present in one room, everyone is discussing, it's a different focus.

00:30:27.141 --> 00:30:43.402
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wanted to go back to the national committees because, to close the loop on participation, even if you don't participate in the international meetings, perhaps being a part of your national committee gives you a way to affect the outcomes of the international or the higher tier standards.

00:30:43.402 --> 00:30:48.352
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Birgit, you've used the word mirror group before, so let's explain that to the listeners.

00:30:48.805 --> 00:30:51.512
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So the mirror group was what we call the Danish standards.

00:30:51.512 --> 00:30:56.676
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>They had what they called a mirror group to CENTEC 127.

00:30:56.676 --> 00:31:02.798
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So that was a group of Danish experts that was discussing before the SENTEC 127 meetings.

00:31:02.798 --> 00:31:18.972
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>We would look at what was on the agenda, discuss it among us and then what should be our viewpoint from Denmark as we go into these meetings, especially for the bigger meetings like the overall SENTEC 127 or an overall ISO TC92 meeting.

00:31:18.972 --> 00:31:20.296
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>This is extremely important.

00:31:20.296 --> 00:31:26.036
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>When you go down into the working groups there you're more there in your capabilities of a technical expert.

00:31:26.036 --> 00:31:33.830
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So those details are not always discussed as much in the national mirror committees but depends on what it is.

00:31:33.830 --> 00:31:34.854
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Sometimes they are.

00:31:34.854 --> 00:31:46.994
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So this is an opportunity for national experts who are not members of the CEN or ISO committee to have an impact on those committees' discussions.

00:31:47.517 --> 00:31:50.728
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it's also a stepping stone for an engineer who would like to participate.

00:31:50.728 --> 00:32:02.530
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you don't have ability to put yourself forward for a CEN committee, if you're coming from a smaller country, like there are no representatives from your country actually you would have a very good shot to be a part of the table.

00:32:02.530 --> 00:32:14.910
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But if you're coming from UK or Germany or Poland, even the chances are that the seats are already occupied by someone because there's just so many people and just so few seats on the tables.

00:32:14.910 --> 00:32:26.377
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So participating at your country level perhaps gives you this ability to again participate and you still would get all the benefits of networking just within your own country.

00:32:26.377 --> 00:32:26.979
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Part right.

00:32:27.338 --> 00:32:33.032
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Exactly, and it'll give you an opportunity to show well, I actually have some knowledge here that needs to go into the SEND committee.

00:32:33.032 --> 00:32:43.275
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>And maybe you can be invited in to start with us as a guest, to present your work to SEND, if need be, et cetera right, if the national committee decides this is of importance to the discussions.

00:32:43.895 --> 00:32:48.529
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>However, if you would like to do, you have to be a member of an FPA, to be a part of an FPA committee.

00:32:48.529 --> 00:32:49.492
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is this required?

00:32:49.492 --> 00:32:50.355
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't think so.

00:32:51.267 --> 00:32:52.673
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>But honestly I'm not 100% sure.

00:32:53.507 --> 00:32:55.513
<v Kees Both>No Ukraine Law is being invited as a guest.

00:32:56.465 --> 00:33:00.093
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So yeah, I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a part to just participate, it's open meeting.

00:33:00.113 --> 00:33:02.436
<v Kees Both>So you just have to send a message to the chair.

00:33:02.436 --> 00:33:07.144
<v Kees Both>It's on the website, so just send the message to the chair and then see if you can participate.

00:33:07.144 --> 00:33:15.858
<v Kees Both>Just notify that you have the intention to participate, because the meetings are open to public, which is nice which is not necessarily the case for stand meetings.

00:33:16.220 --> 00:33:18.268
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, we've been advertising this for 30 minutes.

00:33:18.268 --> 00:33:19.410
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's talk some.

00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:28.330
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If someone is excited to join SCN or ISO or NFPA committees, let's talk over what does it come with, because it's also an obligation.

00:33:28.330 --> 00:33:31.555
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So let's talk about costs of participation first in time.

00:33:31.555 --> 00:33:33.310
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How much time does it really take?

00:33:34.146 --> 00:33:36.355
<v Kees Both>The vague answer is this varies.

00:33:36.355 --> 00:33:40.054
<v Kees Both>So take into account, for example, the Eurocodes.

00:33:40.054 --> 00:33:42.021
<v Kees Both>So this is S dc 250.

00:33:42.021 --> 00:33:47.140
<v Kees Both>Obviously they have fire parts of fire, dedicated parts in in the euro codes.

00:33:47.140 --> 00:33:48.544
<v Kees Both>They have been revised.

00:33:48.564 --> 00:33:58.674
<v Kees Both>They're still in the process of being revised, actually you know one of the the parts still has some equations and formulas in it that I developed that during my ph, phd.

00:33:58.674 --> 00:34:00.199
<v Kees Both>So that's nice to see.

00:34:00.199 --> 00:34:07.893
<v Kees Both>So that's how a young researcher eventually ends up in the Eurocodes Just a pathway or a career path.

00:34:07.893 --> 00:34:13.871
<v Kees Both>But when Eurocodes these big monsters, are in revision, then the underlying working groups.

00:34:13.871 --> 00:34:15.952
<v Kees Both>They meet very frequently and they do a lot of work.

00:34:15.952 --> 00:34:25.369
<v Kees Both>So this may be, depending on what it is that you want to have changed in the Eurocode might be a decent part of a day, but it also the other committees.

00:34:25.369 --> 00:34:29.617
<v Kees Both>There are standards that are being developed but they do not move that fast.

00:34:29.617 --> 00:34:37.418
<v Kees Both>And then it's like you have a spring and an autumn meeting, one or two days, and then you have some preparatory work as well and maybe some Entire days.

00:34:37.724 --> 00:34:39.050
<v Kees Both>So that's more or less the idea.

00:34:48.664 --> 00:34:50.990
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So the bandwidth is a couple of days per year to a month or so in total.

00:34:50.990 --> 00:34:56.766
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, for me it, when I was very active part of the cn committees for 12 101 standards we had work group 9, work group 5 there that was car parks and transient systems.

00:34:56.766 --> 00:35:00.313
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we would convene two days for one work group, two days for other work group.

00:35:00.313 --> 00:35:05.445
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>A lot of people were would be in both, so it would be in a whole week pretty much of meetings.

00:35:05.445 --> 00:35:11.885
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you could, you had to fly to a place you have to fly back and that would happen two, three times a year.

00:35:11.885 --> 00:35:16.822
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you would miss out like two, three weeks out of the year for example, nfpa 502.

00:35:16.882 --> 00:35:21.804
<v Kees Both>So we just finished the the 2023 or was it 2024 vision cycle.

00:35:21.804 --> 00:35:28.490
<v Kees Both>But then you have like the first public comments, so you address and you capture what Birgitta said.

00:35:28.490 --> 00:35:44.592
<v Kees Both>You capture all the comments from all over the world, basically, and then you have like a meeting which takes the better part of a week and we've had, I think, three meetings, such meetings, to finish everything and we send it out again for final public comments.

00:35:44.592 --> 00:35:53.039
<v Kees Both>So we had like three weeks in total, over one and a half years, but then it takes another three years before the next revision comes into play.

00:35:54.164 --> 00:36:03.929
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In SFP it's different because it's almost exclusively virtual meetings, so they would be shorter, like having an entire day meetings makes sense when you fly in.

00:36:03.929 --> 00:36:04.949
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Everyone comes to.

00:36:04.949 --> 00:36:16.313
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a big investment to come, so you probably would like to spend many hours if you did this investment and this means the meetings would be shorter but more frequent.

00:36:16.313 --> 00:36:29.097
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So when we were in the heat of writing the risk guide or revising it, we would meet within our subcommittees and that would be very frequent, like twice a month, once a month for an extended period of time.

00:36:29.097 --> 00:36:37.701
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Drafting a chapter, like a subcommittee would be a chapter of a book and then you would have a meeting of all subcommittees where the chapters would be merged.

00:36:37.701 --> 00:36:39.581
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So those were additional meetings.

00:36:39.581 --> 00:36:45.463
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So when there was a lot of work, it was a lot of meetings but shorter ones, more frequent.

00:36:48.844 --> 00:36:52.079
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I think a golden rule in how much time to spend is if you want to have an impact, you spend the time.

00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:58.255
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>The more time you spend on preparing, the more impact you will have at the meeting.

00:36:58.255 --> 00:37:17.594
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So it's been fascinating sitting in meetings both SEN and ISO and observe those people who are truly prepared for the meeting and what they could actually manage to get through, and then the people who actually hadn't read the documents and didn't realize what was going on around them.

00:37:17.594 --> 00:37:32.961
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So if you do commit to this, you have to commit the time and your employer has to agree that you commit the time when I was in an FPA Expo 2019 in San Antonio, I witnessed the grand voting thing of an FPA.

00:37:33.728 --> 00:37:34.972
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That was a very interesting thing.

00:37:34.972 --> 00:37:36.490
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Can you tell us about this?

00:37:36.490 --> 00:37:43.635
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because we just said about committees how we build up the standards, but in NFPA you also have this mechanism to vote on the changes of the standards.

00:37:43.635 --> 00:37:44.989
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Right, it's a big thing.

00:37:45.585 --> 00:37:48.994
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>We have the technical meeting that happens after our conference and expo.

00:37:48.994 --> 00:37:53.355
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Yes, the day after Big meeting, thousands of people with the ability to vote.

00:37:54.911 --> 00:37:58.625
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've never seen thousands of fire people in one room, and they were there.

00:37:58.664 --> 00:38:09.777
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Oh yeah, they're there, and that's where things that has been tabled for discussion, you know, or things that has come in that we wanted to amend and so on, can be discussed there.

00:38:09.777 --> 00:38:21.335
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Again, I'm not an expert in our process, but I know that that is to me one of the most democratic ways, you know, that people can come in there and they can argue their point and we can vote on it.

00:38:21.335 --> 00:38:34.380
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's like the ICC code process and so on as well, where people can get up to the microphone and talk about their point in a way that we don't see in Sen and ISO, in my view.

00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:35.690
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>What do you think, Kees?

00:38:36.085 --> 00:38:37.655
<v Kees Both>Yeah, well, interesting to say that.

00:38:37.655 --> 00:38:39.105
<v Kees Both>So, in my view, what do you think is?

00:38:39.105 --> 00:38:48.467
<v Kees Both>Yeah, well, interesting to say that.

00:38:48.467 --> 00:38:52.378
<v Kees Both>It inspires me to make the comment on the balloting and the weighted balloting that we have in CEN, whereas we do not have a weighted balloting in ISO, for example.

00:38:52.378 --> 00:38:58.713
<v Kees Both>So in ISO, the vote of Denmark and the vote of the Netherlands weigh as heavy as the vote of the US, for example, but in Europe, in CEN, this is different of the US, for example, but in Europe, in CEN, this is different.

00:38:58.733 --> 00:39:14.195
<v Kees Both>So France and Germany and also the UK, because they're still a member of CEN, they have a heavy weight, and so the weighted balance is there determined on the basis of, I think it's, the number of inhabitants or the GDP, I don't know, or both, I don't know.

00:39:14.195 --> 00:39:18.474
<v Kees Both>There's a rule for this, but at least there's a weighted balance.

00:39:18.474 --> 00:39:24.608
<v Kees Both>So this is nice, and then you can argue whether this is democratic or not, but it's different.

00:39:24.608 --> 00:39:44.936
<v Kees Both>Transparency and the way the voting is handled in NFPA, aacm and so forth is something to look into, also in CEN and ISO perhaps.

00:39:44.936 --> 00:39:46.893
<v Kees Both>But this is not necessarily a critique.

00:39:46.893 --> 00:40:02.269
<v Kees Both>It's to ensure that perhaps in the future we have better ways of dealing with other opinions also in a very late stage of the standards development process also in a very late stage of the of the standards development process.

00:40:02.289 --> 00:40:13.949
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, and uh, you brought me to to the thing that I wanted to discuss, uh, very badly in here, which is the politics in the committees, because, uh, we cannot pretend it's just you know technical discussion and you know smart people arguing on technical knowledge.

00:40:13.949 --> 00:40:15.815
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's a whole bunch of politics.

00:40:15.815 --> 00:40:33.766
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But you said a single world can be a market share in in the standard, absolutely, and people who are in those companies, a lot of those people are not not new to that concept, they know that very well and there is a big element of politics in in those committees.

00:40:33.766 --> 00:40:50.878
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Everyone has interest, countries have interests, companies have interests and if you can, you know, tie those interests with the standard that becomes the standard of how things are done, the product standard, the design standard, whatever you can assure a win.

00:40:50.878 --> 00:40:55.275
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How big part of the committees is there?

00:40:55.275 --> 00:40:57.813
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How ready you have to be to deal with that?

00:40:57.813 --> 00:41:00.092
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I don't know how to deal with that.

00:41:00.092 --> 00:41:01.094
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's a difficult question.

00:41:01.565 --> 00:41:02.931
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Probably depends on the committee.

00:41:02.931 --> 00:41:06.755
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I think some are more political than others.

00:41:06.755 --> 00:41:22.407
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I would say that I have participated in several very political committees and, as I mentioned earlier, it almost becomes a game of psychology as well, as you're sitting there observing people who are saying what, why are they talked about?

00:41:22.407 --> 00:41:45.416
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Committed participation can be expensive in time and in travel, and who can afford pay for that?

00:41:45.416 --> 00:41:49.648
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Often, it's industry who has an interest in this.

00:41:49.648 --> 00:42:10.952
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>They will invest in this, and this is where we then can risk at getting into unbalanced committees, because they are the ones who then invest in this because they have an interest, whereas others, coming from research institutes, test institutes and so on, might not have the same budget behind them to be able to do this.

00:42:10.952 --> 00:42:17.416
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>That is one of the biggest challenges, I think, in both CEN and ISO in order to maintain neutrality.

00:42:18.686 --> 00:42:35.099
<v Kees Both>I would fully agree on that set, and maybe it's a too rosy picture, I don't know, but sooner or later the ship will hit the shore, if that's proper English, because it's a long-haul fight, a long-haul battle, a pale battle.

00:42:35.099 --> 00:43:00.891
<v Kees Both>If you are a specific industry or a specific stakeholder that wants to get things done in a committee or rule things out in a certain committee, sooner or later you'll find a lot of opposition or you'll find your main competitor or counter arguments on your way, and that might take a year, might take five years, might take 10 years, but sooner or later you can, on short term perhaps, try and gain the system.

00:43:00.891 --> 00:43:09.514
<v Kees Both>But on the long run I think even the Sandlin ISO system are resilient enough to make sure that the excesses are ruled out.

00:43:09.514 --> 00:43:12.032
<v Kees Both>But as Brigitte said, I'm fully with you.

00:43:12.032 --> 00:43:19.005
<v Kees Both>There is a way to gain the system on short term if you spend enough money and if you bring enough arguments to the table.

00:43:19.646 --> 00:43:26.409
<v Kees Both>But it's not a guarantee that you will see this completely true, because you you will face increasingly opposition.

00:43:26.409 --> 00:43:47.153
<v Kees Both>Whereas in the past perhaps sharing documents and getting the latest info on everything that happens in the committee was perhaps a bit difficult, nowadays everything is is on internet and you can approach it and you can forward it to your colleagues to gather perhaps additional opinions on shooting things to pieces and so forth.

00:43:47.153 --> 00:43:52.251
<v Kees Both>So to game the system is increasingly, I think, more difficult, but it's still possible.

00:43:52.251 --> 00:44:10.119
<v Kees Both>And I think it's up to the people who are more experienced say, like people like Birgitta and I, that we try and prevent this as much as possible, because on the long run it's not good for nobody, not even the industry that has a vested interest, to try and pull things off on the short term.

00:44:10.119 --> 00:44:12.673
<v Kees Both>It's not good for the entire sector.

00:44:12.673 --> 00:44:14.512
<v Kees Both>So we should try and rule this out.

00:44:15.626 --> 00:44:17.614
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think it's also a good argument for getting involved.

00:44:17.614 --> 00:44:26.489
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The more people are involved there, the more passionate fire engineers are there, People who represent fire science, fire engineering or safety.

00:44:26.489 --> 00:44:31.634
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I like to consider myself someone who voices out the voice of safety.

00:44:31.634 --> 00:44:33.391
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm in for good fire engineering.

00:44:33.391 --> 00:44:37.211
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm not in for selling a product or getting a market share.

00:44:37.211 --> 00:44:39.313
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm here to promote good solutions.

00:44:39.313 --> 00:44:44.376
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps it's naive, perhaps it's ambitious, but I like to think about myself like that.

00:44:44.376 --> 00:44:54.132
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think the more people are a part of those committees, the easier it is to, you know, build a front against lobbying, and lobbying sometimes is also okay.

00:44:54.224 --> 00:45:01.735
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Sometimes people lobby for good technical solutions to replace solutions that are perhaps not that great, so there's also nothing wrong in that.

00:45:01.735 --> 00:45:09.539
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And lobbying to keep status quo is as annoying as lobbying for a specific type of device or a system.

00:45:09.539 --> 00:45:10.059
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's been there.

00:45:10.059 --> 00:45:18.378
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One thing that I do not completely understand I've never been a part of TC-127 or ISO TC-92, which are fire safety engineering.

00:45:18.378 --> 00:45:19.864
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've only been a part of TC127 or ISO TC92, which are fire safety engineering.

00:45:19.864 --> 00:45:20.146
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Have only been a part of those.

00:45:20.865 --> 00:45:21.628
<v Kees Both>Sorry to interrupt you.

00:45:21.628 --> 00:45:24.577
<v Kees Both>Maybe I should correct you because you've mentioned it now a couple of times.

00:45:24.577 --> 00:45:31.458
<v Kees Both>So TC127 is not only about fire engineering, nor is ISO TC92 only about fire engineering.

00:45:31.458 --> 00:45:36.460
<v Kees Both>So to go to ISO TC92, for example, it has four subcommittees.

00:45:36.460 --> 00:45:42.434
<v Kees Both>Subcommittee one is on fire development and fire growth and subcommittee three on environmental aspects.

00:45:42.434 --> 00:45:44.813
<v Kees Both>So those were the committees that Perdita was in.

00:45:44.813 --> 00:45:51.376
<v Kees Both>I was more coming from the fire resistance side, so that's subcommittee two, on competition.

00:45:51.376 --> 00:45:55.876
<v Kees Both>And subcommittee four and ISO is actually devoted to fire engineering.

00:45:55.876 --> 00:45:58.813
<v Kees Both>So it's more than fire engineering.

00:45:58.853 --> 00:45:59.134
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of course.

00:45:59.134 --> 00:46:02.971
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, sorry for that, it's a shortcut in my head.

00:46:02.971 --> 00:46:07.474
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What I wanted to contrast is products versus methods or design.

00:46:07.474 --> 00:46:20.735
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know ways of designing stuff, so is there an inherent difference in committees that developed standards for products versus committees that developed standards for like designing stuff Like Euroodes?

00:46:20.735 --> 00:46:22.338
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is design not a product, right?

00:46:22.860 --> 00:46:30.766
<v Kees Both>absolutely so maybe I start forget and you finish off and you're more in the line and better in english, but it's absolutely so.

00:46:30.887 --> 00:46:43.405
<v Kees Both>In in sen, for example, we we have dedicated also in isa, but we have dedicated product standards, that that are related to a product family, say thermal insulation, or say steel, or say concrete or glass, for example.

00:46:43.405 --> 00:46:53.239
<v Kees Both>And then we have horizontal committees like fire safety or acoustics, for example, or BIM, so building information management or IT-related stuff.

00:46:53.239 --> 00:47:02.170
<v Kees Both>So it's a kind of a matrix and obviously the balance, balance, say, and participation in these companies completely difference.

00:47:02.170 --> 00:47:02.791
<v Kees Both>It differs.

00:47:02.791 --> 00:47:11.443
<v Kees Both>So, yeah, there there is this, this matrix organization, if you like, and matrix is perhaps the right word because you can get more than no, I think.

00:47:11.503 --> 00:47:14.416
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I think maybe it's an interesting way of of looking at it.

00:47:14.416 --> 00:47:17.545
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Of course, in in the product technical committees, you will see a lot more manufacturers.

00:47:17.545 --> 00:47:42.789
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>So so I was not an appointed member of Santezy 88 on thermal insulation, but I was often a guest brought in when we were discussing on fire-related matters, discuss everything related to the product, and they are then, you know, referring to the fire standards, to 13501, etc.

00:47:42.789 --> 00:47:51.652
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>And this is then when the fire experts from the different industries come in and and and work with the, the product technical committee.

00:47:52.215 --> 00:48:01.518
<v Kees Both>That's why it can get spicy, trust me maybe a nice link to uh, and again, brigitte can tell stories on this because, as I said, she was a couple of years ahead on this.

00:48:01.518 --> 00:48:07.594
<v Kees Both>So the product, say standards committees, like TC88 for thermal insulation.

00:48:07.594 --> 00:48:15.797
<v Kees Both>They have to think about the end use of their product and they have to test this in a specific end use condition.

00:48:15.797 --> 00:48:24.135
<v Kees Both>And then they go to send TC127 and say how should I perform this test, let's say a single burning item test, to make that bridge.

00:48:24.135 --> 00:48:47.333
<v Kees Both>Well, I'm not sure how much time we still have but Pergitta has some stories to tell on this history as well to try and develop from all the national standards on reaction to fire to come to this unique new standard, including the application of oxygen depreciation to get a measure of the rate of heat release.

00:48:47.724 --> 00:48:50.313
<v Kees Both>But then the mounting and fixing discussion.

00:48:50.313 --> 00:49:13.608
<v Kees Both>So what can you discuss and what can you develop in the horizontal committee on this is how you should install your test specimen from a general perspective and then from the other perspective, like the producer of a product with specific end-users in mind, what kind of mounting and fixing is then the one that is perhaps most onerous to test and in the test only one?

00:49:13.608 --> 00:49:21.771
<v Kees Both>Can I then get a kind of a classification for multiple other ant-use conditions, or do I have to test all the variants?

00:49:21.771 --> 00:49:23.829
<v Kees Both>So that's where it can become.

00:49:23.829 --> 00:49:25.755
<v Kees Both>I think you use the word spicy.

00:49:25.755 --> 00:49:32.992
<v Kees Both>There's a word I like spicy, but sometimes it's not really spicy, it has a different taste.

00:49:33.585 --> 00:49:42.271
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think we'll have to reconvene on merging different points of view into one coherent piece of a standard in a different episode.

00:49:42.271 --> 00:50:00.639
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because I wanted to ask one more final question to both of you in this episode If you had to evaluate how big part of you getting to the positions where you are today successful fire engineers in positions of power how big chunk of that came from your participation?

00:50:00.639 --> 00:50:01.619
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like, was it worth it?

00:50:02.061 --> 00:50:04.251
<v Kees Both>Absolutely yes, 100% yes.

00:50:04.251 --> 00:50:09.878
<v Kees Both>I wouldn't do anything different from what I've been doing in the last couple of years.

00:50:09.878 --> 00:50:12.152
<v Kees Both>It's absolutely worth it 100%.

00:50:12.907 --> 00:50:14.112
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I would totally agree with that.

00:50:14.112 --> 00:50:31.233
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I would actually say the fact that I was thrown into standardization so early has created my career and, even though I'm not in standardization anymore, everything that I've learned, the people that I connected with through that, the friends that I've made and that's something we haven't talked about here yeah but I one of.

00:50:31.353 --> 00:50:35.007
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>One of the things is it's not just professionally, it's also personally.

00:50:35.007 --> 00:50:37.210
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>You meet a lot of very interesting people.

00:50:37.210 --> 00:50:55.829
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I made a lot of friends over the years and that so being in standardization, has truly shaped my career in a way that I am very grateful for, and I'm grateful for the people that I argued with in the standards committees, because I learned so much from that.

00:50:55.829 --> 00:51:00.699
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>It's been a great experience, even though there's also been some very boring meetings in between.

00:51:00.699 --> 00:51:03.414
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I admit that, but I would not change it.

00:51:03.414 --> 00:51:03.875
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>No.

00:51:05.007 --> 00:51:12.815
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would say for me it's not that being a part of those committees would put me directly in the location where I am today.

00:51:12.815 --> 00:51:22.978
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's like a parallel path on which I was going, but the amount of stuff I've learned in those committees was unbelievable.

00:51:22.978 --> 00:51:29.478
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>At some point I had a feeling that this is really the only place where I still learn new things about smoke control.

00:51:29.478 --> 00:51:37.318
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's kind of probably not nice to say I knew it all, but I knew a lot for my context, for my country.

00:51:37.585 --> 00:51:42.938
<v Kees Both>So on the word check, would you allow Birgitta and me then to ask you maybe I'll start, but Birgitte to finish off.

00:51:42.938 --> 00:51:46.996
<v Kees Both>I would like to invite you for the next FC4 meeting ISO TC92.

00:51:46.996 --> 00:51:50.755
<v Kees Both>That's fire safety engineering in Berlin the second week of April.

00:51:50.755 --> 00:51:53.164
<v Kees Both>So please come and be proud of it Don't?

00:51:53.184 --> 00:51:58.088
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>we have a conference right then in Annenbro we have a conference right down in Enem Row.

00:51:58.108 --> 00:52:07.193
<v Kees Both>Okay, so I will make sure that there is a pint of beer or a glass of whiskey to seal this contract, but Brigitte may have an NFPA coming to that.

00:52:07.193 --> 00:52:08.293
<v Kees Both>You should become a member.

00:52:08.795 --> 00:52:09.715
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Probably several.

00:52:09.715 --> 00:52:19.400
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I would say first of all, I hope you'll be coming to our conference and expo here in June and maybe then again can step in and see the NFPA standardization.

00:52:19.460 --> 00:52:27.849
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Grand voting scheme, exactly, yes, yes, I think we even have a paper submitted for that conference.

00:52:27.849 --> 00:52:43.632
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I have to be also mindful of where I put my time into, but definitely SFP committees right now are the ones that I am willing to invest time, because I feel we're doing some great stuff for fire safety engineers and I also still believe putting time into those committees is valuable.

00:52:43.632 --> 00:52:46.528
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I still grow and I still develop and I still learn new stuff.

00:52:46.528 --> 00:52:54.730
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And what you said about making friends like shout out to all my good friends from TC191, sc1, workgroup 5 and 9.

00:52:54.730 --> 00:52:57.353
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've spent a lovely time with you guys.

00:52:57.353 --> 00:53:09.594
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Many pints of beer and many interesting talks on the record and off the record, and definitely it has impacted my entire life as a 5-7 engineer and made me a better 5-7 engineer.

00:53:09.594 --> 00:53:11.530
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, yeah, highly recommend it.

00:53:12.112 --> 00:53:29.320
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>Final words yeah, you know, Kees very early on brought up the idea of mentorships for people to get into the standards and I just want to say, if anyone listening to this have an interest in getting in but don't really know where to start or just want some good advice, connect with me on LinkedIn.

00:53:29.320 --> 00:53:30.648
<v Birgitte Messerschmidt>I'll be happy to chat with you.

00:53:31.110 --> 00:53:31.893
<v Kees Both>Same same here.

00:53:31.893 --> 00:53:46.893
<v Kees Both>So we're happy to reach out to the younger generation and the next ones that want to follow at least some part of the career path successful career path that Birgit and I have been able to follow, so happy to share all the knowledge that we have.

00:53:47.907 --> 00:53:50.173
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I'm also happy to guide you.

00:53:50.173 --> 00:53:54.333
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you want to enter this world, there's a pathway for you.

00:53:54.333 --> 00:53:55.597
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, thanks guys.

00:53:55.597 --> 00:53:57.293
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, as always, time flies by so fast when I'm chatting with you.

00:53:57.293 --> 00:53:57.755
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, thanks, guys.

00:53:57.755 --> 00:54:00.434
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, as always, time flies by so fast when I'm chatting with you.

00:54:00.434 --> 00:54:01.284
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's insane.

00:54:01.284 --> 00:54:06.512
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like an hour of recording sounds a long thing, but it's just a split second.

00:54:06.512 --> 00:54:11.672
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I wish committees were like this, don't we all Cheers, thank you.

00:54:11.672 --> 00:54:13.235
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay, that's it.

00:54:13.605 --> 00:54:25.253
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't even know how many decades of committee experience we shared together with B Hit and Kiss Perhaps too many but if, after all this time, we're still excited about this work.

00:54:25.253 --> 00:54:35.414
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, it's kind of painful and annoying in a way, and it takes you a lot of time, a lot of resources, a lot of energy, but on the other hand, it's really worth it.

00:54:35.414 --> 00:54:46.807
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's giving back to you in such a rich way and the friendships, the people you meet, the way how you can develop yourself as an engineer, the way how you can build up your name.

00:54:46.807 --> 00:54:48.855
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's really unbelievable.

00:54:48.855 --> 00:54:53.849
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I could speak about it more and more, emphasizing the points we've made in the podcast episode.

00:54:53.849 --> 00:55:12.554
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I would like to come back to the listener, kevin Feek from Labella Associates, who wrote me this message a year ago, and it was really encouraging me to do a podcast episode like this, and Kevin wrote me that while on the LinkedIn I saw a post from an FBA asking for people to join committees interested, I clicked link and went down the rabbit hole.

00:55:12.554 --> 00:55:17.532
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was a similar story when I joined my UL committee and joined department of Labor Advisory Board.

00:55:17.532 --> 00:55:24.548
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Moving to code and standard development has been a peek behind the curtain into the code and studies that I use on a daily basis.

00:55:24.548 --> 00:55:29.367
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It has also opened a huge network of people that I can contact with questions that stump me.

00:55:29.728 --> 00:55:33.186
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The best part for me, though, is sharing that these opportunities are always there.

00:55:33.186 --> 00:55:38.268
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We need more professionals willing to share their time and expertise to improve fire science and engineering standards.

00:55:38.268 --> 00:55:41.273
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hell, I agree with every word he wrote.

00:55:41.273 --> 00:55:44.599
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>First of all, it's fairly easy to get involved.

00:55:44.599 --> 00:55:58.117
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps you will not be nominated to the biggest committee day one of your application, but it's a ladder that you can climb, and if you put in the work, if you do the job, if you're good, you will climb the ladder very, very fast.

00:55:59.764 --> 00:56:02.693
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Secondly, there's always opportunities and we always lack people in those committees.

00:56:02.693 --> 00:56:13.815
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's really a lot of work and producing good standards needs varied points of view, good knowledge, but also people that put work in, so there's always need for more.

00:56:13.815 --> 00:56:17.045
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And finally, the networking aspect is really brilliant.

00:56:17.045 --> 00:56:23.815
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The people that you will meet there will definitely change or at least impact your professional career.

00:56:23.815 --> 00:56:35.731
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So highly encouraging you to look for scientific technical advisory boards, standardization committees around you in the stuff that relates to your work and share your knowledge.

00:56:35.731 --> 00:56:37.052
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Be a part of it.

00:56:37.052 --> 00:56:38.275
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think it's fully worth it.

00:56:38.275 --> 00:56:42.000
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope we've convinced you in some way in this Fire Science Show episode.

00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:50.449
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Perhaps a little less fire science in this episode, but definitely a lot of important stuff for our community and what else.

00:56:50.449 --> 00:56:54.755
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I can invite you back here next Wednesday for another Fire Science Show episode.

00:56:54.755 --> 00:56:55.905
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you, bye.