Carrie with Eva Vives

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Speaker 1: On the Bedel Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef in best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello and welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus and my name is Caitlin. Darante is our podcast about the portrayal of women in famous movies. Wow, here we are here, we are something that doesn't pass the Bechtel test. Before we entroy it. I used task Rabbit for the first time today and a hot firefighter came to my friend's house and brought her mattress to my house. And then like we added each other on Facebook. Oh I think I LOVET. So you're Gregnt. No, I'm GREGN. I think Gregnt. I don't know I Well, anyways, I met a firefighter today. Okay, what's the Betel So that? Yeah, that for sure didn't pass the Bechdel test, which is a test that you who apply to media for our sake movies. It requires that the movie has two named female identifying characters who speak to each other about something other than a man. Okay, let's try it. Okay, Hey, Caitlin, what Jamie? I guess what kind of mattress I have? Now? Wow? Um, what kind of I don't know? Is it? Yes, Queen? Yes, queen? Okay, Well, it doesn't have to be a compelling conversation. But that time that passed. If it was a king's size mattress or California king, that would have not pondering our mattresses? Right? Why did they do that? Why are kings extra big? What did they what did they keeping in there? Well, the real question is why are queens smaller than kings? Oh? I mean, I mean less than but also like I think like better, because if you're getting into the king's size bed territory, it's like, who do you think you are? Like what? No one needs this much space? I think king's eye bed. I don't have one, but it's only because I don't sleep with anyone else in my bed. If I was sleeping with someone, I would need a bed that was at least I would say, twenty ft wide. I just don't let people stay at my house. Sure. The thing, I'm just like, okay, well this get out of here, like you can come for breakfast tomorrow anyways, I'm very nurturing and nice. Um. Okay, I'm so excited for the movie we're talking about today, particularly excited for our guest we have today. Her movie came out last week. It's going to be playing across the country. It's called All About Nina and it is a movie. Well, we'll just let her tell you it's right, or director of Vivez Leans for being here, Thank you for having me. I'm so excited and listened for so long. It's nice to be here. Before we get into the discussion, can you tell us a little bit about All About Nina for our our listeners. Sure. Um, it's a movie that I wrote, and it's my first directorial debut. Well, I guess the debut is always a first write. It's my directorial problem of sorts. Yeah, feature debut anyway, and it stars Mary Elizabeth Winstead soon to be in a huge DC comic book as well. But she is the titular character and she is a stand up comedian something you know something about. And Jamie worked on the movie as well. It's how we met, which I'm very grateful for. She was our comedy consultant. So you might recognize some of her jokes in the film as well. Yeah, there's anytime, there's always anytime there's a joke about fingering, it's my joke. Actually, that's my contribution. Not to give anything away, but yeah, but I also ended up having to cut a bunch because I was like, this is getting it's getting to be too many fingering jokes. We could see the punchline. So everyone should see the movie to begin with. But then also, you know, if you if you happen to giggle at a thing green joke that that's my little contribution. I'm told it's raw and it's dirty, which I'm like, isn't. That's just the way my friends and I are. But it seems just like if you go outside of the comedy scene, I think other people seem to find it kind of in your face. Are it's totally rated. Are and it also has the wonderful comment in it and it Yeah, it definitely passes the big deltas you thought about this already, haven't when when you first gave you this group to year, goos like, oh let's see where it did where? And it passes a billion times? Yeah, it's great, So it's back tell cost approved. Um so so definitely check it out. We'll talk about it again at the end, but today we have a very different movie to discuss because it's the Halloween e month. Now. The movie we're talking about today is Carrie the Brian to pal McCarry nineteen seventy six. Yes, yeah, I'm so excited to talk about it. Yeah, it's it's a wild one. But what's your your history, your relation ship with this movie? When did you first see it? I watched it again this morning in preparation of this, but I had seen it. I don't know, not a ton of times. First of all, I was born in nineteen six. How this is how old this movie is, So I definitely didn't see it. You know, I don't see it as an infant, although I saw a lot of other inappropriate things. But I'll say, um, horror is not my forte and movies, although I certainly love a good horror movie. So I just didn't come to it until probably I was in my mid twenties and a friend of mine, Zoe, said, oh, you should see it. It's all about periods. I was like, oh, I didn't realize that. All right, I'll go see it. It's not going to be the sequel to All About Nina. I mean, yeah, we talked quite a lot about bleeding in that movie. But yeah, and then I and then I thought because I had only seen that image of her covered in blood and with the fire, which again I thought, this could go either way, like it could just be one of those silly movies where like women get bloodied up or and then she was like, no, no, it's about periods. So I thought, oh, okay, that's different. So then I watched it, and it's interesting because, I mean, Jamie knows this. I was abused as a kid, and so I maybe because I was in the midst of sort of going to therapy and talking about my recovery. I remember the first time I saw it in my mid twenties, it really hit me that way. I felt it was very much about a kid who I mean, clearly she is being abused at home, and you know how far that abuse goes in terms of her own mother. All of that are the things that when I watched it today, probably like fifteen years later, so I had a lot more questions about. I think at the time it hit me more viscerally because I thought, and you guys are probably you know you you've You're younger than me, so you've grown up at a time where again, even though the movie still leave a lot to be desired in terms of for roles for women and anybody who's not white, basically because, by the way, not one non white person in this movie. Actually I think that I saw one black guy in the in the prom Senior, but no one certainly with speaking roles. No anyway, I digress. But but anyway, so yeah, this time around, um, I was a little bit more disappointed in it in the sense that I wish I mean, I'm sure we'll get into it, but um, the fear of women was very palpable in it, and internally the ending of I guess to me that the allegory felt like if you're abused, you're burning hell, and right there was of gosh, there was a few moments where I thought the movie was ending and it actually wasn't. Like the last few minutes. I mean, we'll get into it, but like the last few minutes of this movie were such a roller coaster of like, how does this movie feel about Carrie? Where like what is the movie? Because I thought it was like reaching a place where I was like, oh, this seems empathetic, and then at the end it's like, no, just kidding, She's in hell. You're like, okay, great, Um, yeah, Caitlin, what's your history of this movie? I lived my whole adolescent in adult life until two years ago thinking that I had seen this movie is like a teenager. And I think it was just because I knew the very on moments of the movie, which is the shower scene where she finds out she gets her period and has a bunch of tampons and pads thrown at her, and the prom scene, which I think I might have actually seen that whole sequence play out, and I just think that I had seen the whole movie. But I watched it two years ago and realized, oh, I've actually never seen this whole movie. So that was a fun revelation for me. But I do distinctly remember seeing the Rage Carrie too. Who wait, when did that come up? No? No, no, the Kimberly Pierce one. I'm not entirely sure it was. I think in early two thousand's uh sequel, let me let me get direct to video deal because I know, because I know Kimpiers remated with Julianne Moore, But I haven't seen that yet, so that's actually watching it today. I was, I was really curious about how her treatment of it would change it. You know, Yeah, I haven't seen the make Yeah that was Julyanne Moore as the mother, and that Chloe Chloe Grace Merits as Carrie saying that blonde girl Chloe really doesn't narrow it down, do you think about it? Also, let that reduced women to their hair colors, Jamie, but also but also but I know I haven't seen that one. But I think the other thing is that I read Stephen King's autobiographical like how to Write Books called On. He talks at length about Carry in that book, which I have not read the book Carry, but I did read On Writing, and I just thought that just through osmosis, I must have. I was like, yeah, I've seen this movie, but it was just that I had been exposed to enough Carry related imagery and stories that I thought I saw it. I think that that I had sort of a similar experience where I wasn't if I'd actually seen this movie or not. I think that mostly just speaks to like what a impact this had on like the culture, to the point where by the time I was like twenty minutes and I was like, oh, I definitely haven't seen this all the way through. But same like you were saying, I'm pretty sure that I saw clips of it in like college, in like class. It's sort of like that weird saying where I think I know more about this movie through references made to it through other things than like, but I've never actually seen the thing. My experience is this movie is I saw it this morning as usual. But I have had I don't know, I've had a weird lifelong thing with Stephen King because he lives in the same time my grandma lived in it, and so I would like I have like pictures of him when I was a little kid, and I don't know, like he just was like a hero growing up. Even though I haven't read a ton of his books, he was just like the only writer I'd ever met for a very long time. I was like, Oh, he's the coolest, and like the fact that I knew he wrote about girls, even though I wasn't allowed to read the books, Um, I thought was really cool. Stephen King has written so many books that it's kind of hard to have a concise discussion on like how he writes female characters. I haven't also haven't read enough of his stuff to have that conversation. Yeah, let's do the recap. Just read the story and then we'll actually we'll get into more in depth. So many discussions. Okay, So the story of Carrie is we meet Carrie, who is a teenage girl, Sissy SpaceX right love her, What a what a performance. So the movie opens they're playing some volleyball and gym class and then all the girls are showering in a sequence that you know will unpack, and then she gets her period for the first time, and she does not know what's happening. She dying, Yeah, yeah, she just sees blood and she thinks that she's dying. So she starts freaking out and screaming and begging for help, and then all the other girls and her gym class start bullying her, and they're throwing feminine hygiene products at her, which is like what a waste, right, We're taxed on those, like, come on, just throw And the main perpetrator of this bullying incident is this girl, Chris Farra faucet hair. And then the gym teacher comes in and tries to console Carrie and all this is happening, a light bulb bursts and we're like, what's that all about? Then she goes home and we realized that she has a religious zealot for a mother, and I was reading. I think the book she's reading when Carrie walks in is like The Sins of Women, Just like, okay, right, So her mom finds out that Carry has gotten her period and she punishes her for it by locking her in a closet so Harry Potter reference and assuming it came out. So Carrie is the victum of you know, physical, verbal, emotional abuse from her mother and from really everyone around her. Yeah, slapping that happens in this movie is quite slop. Sorry, I keeps fine. So then she goes Carrie goes upstairs after being let out of the closet and her mirror shatters suddenly, and we're like, huh, what's that all about? Isn't that the cue? Though? Yeah, the cues are so goofy. So then the girls in the gym class who were blaming her are being punished by Ms. Collins, the gym teacher, and she's like, do this detention with me or you don't get to go to prom and the anyone cares about, right, So Chris is like, I'm not doing this stupid attention, So she gets banned from prom. Meanwhile, Carrie starts to investigate. She's like, glass keeps shattering around me, Wonder what that's all about? Really like this because we just for corded our bonus episode on Teeth yesterday. There are so many parallels. Yeah. So so Carrie active character takes it upon herself to figure out what the fox is going on. Yes, reads some books, so she finds a book that tells her about telekinesis, So she's like, that sounds like what I have. Then one of the girls who was friends with the mean bully Chris, but who seems to be nicer, Sue Snell. She asks her boyfriend Tommy if he will take Carrie to the prom because she genuinely seems to want to help carry even though she's complicit in some mistreatment of Carrie. That was an interesting, I feel like Sue of everyone for most high school girls, was probably the most relatable character of Like, you're seeing someone get bullied, but you don't want to be on cool, but you also don't want to let this happen and like, what can you do? End it? And so she like tries but Fox, yeah, soue is interested in another male fantasy. Ye, please fuck my girlfriend exactly. So Tommy asks Carrie to prom in a series of scenes that we will also unpack, but eventually Carrie agrees to go to prom with him. Her mom isn't happy about it, but Carrie stands up for herself. She's like, I'm going, Like she made her own dress. She's excited about it, kind of through intimidation too, because her mom knows that, like it's recognizing that Carrie has these powers, and Carrie's like, yeah, I do, so I'm going to prom. Yeah, And we find out some background that the father left, right because she says, your father left for another woman, is what. Yeah, she said your father was evil, to which I didn't know if she was interpreted that the father also had the powers or not, and she just said, no, he just left for another woman. The implication by the end, I don't know, we'll get there, but I questions. Yeah, basically, Carrie's mom is unhappy with the situation, but you know, Carrie's slaming windows and stuff like that with her telekinesis, and she's like, I'm going to prom and great, great moment for a young teenage girl coming to her own power, whether it's against your own parents. I mean, there are some really great moments of that for sure. Yeah. But meanwhile, Chris is plotting something that involved with John travel though which I didn't realize that he was in this movie. It's like, oh, he's plotting against so there there, there's they're scheming. There, there's a pig involved. They killed a pig, lunge of painting each other. There's there's there's a toxic relationship happening there. Everyone gets to prom. Carrie is really excited. She is, you know, dancing with Tommy. He seems to be treating her nicely, except for the parts where he tries to surprise kiss or, which we'll get to. Uh yeah, but at least he seems to he's come or like it's it's no longer like he's doing it aver like he's enjoying his time. Seems like, yeah, the two of them, Tommy and carry when prom king and queen. Because Chris had this system rigged, much like the Russian hacker. Yeah, much like most of our recent elections Russian What is this Gore Bush two thousand basically anyway, maybe that's where they got the idea. Yeah, we were like sure, well, I mean they did it a Carry's prom How hard going to be screened it at the White House? Check out the way they throw those ballots under the table. What if we put a thing of pigs blood onto al Gore? We can blame this on Stephen King. I hope it started out exactly like Carry, and then if they had to like back peddle it be like, well, we can't just like Carry al Gore. It is an all white people party. Start of similarities. It is true. Yeah, man, I mean I think that that's now American history what we just said. Yeah, I can't believe they were going to do that. Allegory seems like a nice guy. So they went from King and Queen and they go up to the stage and that's when the final moments of this plan are unleashed, and this big bucket of pigs blood gets dumped onto Carry and this invokes her to retaliate using her telekinesis. Where there's a hose that's spraying people, she locks all the doors. No survivors. It seems like it seems like she kills everyone then, but she's outside of the doors because I think everyone in the room dies but souele. And then she and then Chris and John travel to get away, but then carries like nope, and she explodes their car right there. There's a there's a fire in the gym. There's all kind of and then so Carrie walks out. She's covered in blood still and then yeah, Chris and what's his name, Billy? I think, yeah, they blow up? They blow up in their car. Did try to run her over first? And she's like no, they? I mean they you know who misses them? Right there? Goodbye? Then she goes home and cleans herself off, and then her mother is like, oh m, Carrie stab and then she stabs her because she's trying. Anne, I should have killed myself. When he put it in me, pretty tremendous. They I love how and it seems like so consistent with this character and just so creepy. How no one in that house ever says the words sex. It's like it and we didn't do it, and he put it When he put it in me is pretty intense, ye, like, it's pretty graphic. Without naming like it. But yeah, and then well then and also it's unclear at that moment if she was raped or not because the mother, because she says I made him promise he wouldn't do it again. But then she's talking about living in since so I couldn't figure out if the problem was that they weren't married or that he had forced himself on her. Yeah. I think it's open to interpretations in the book, but I don't know. Yeah, the movie doesn't really seem to fallow any which. Yeah, so then the house caves in, Carrie gets stabbed once, uh, and then she starts teleconnising, knives into her crucifies her own christ style, and then the house caves in on itself and seems to be sad about it and brings her down from and then and then the house to hell. They get in the closet. Yeah, it's so horrible, and then the final shot is the flattened house basically, and then Sue Snell walks up and she's like, oh no, what a horrible thing that happened to bring us flowers. A bloody hand comes up from beneath the ground and grabs her and she's like, ah, but it was a dream. Right, Oh yeah, it wasn't because then they go back to it and she's still being dragged down. Oh I don't know. Let's watch Rage Carrie too again to find out that doesn't sell out the characters in any way. So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back. All right, and we're back. So I sort of wanted to start with how the teenage girls treat each other in this world and and sort of just unpack that there's so many degrees of separation, like this is a woman's story told by no women at all. And I think we've had this sort of discussion before where it's like so many steps removed from an actual woman, where Stephen King wrote it, and then I forget what the name of the screenwriter, Lawrence Lawrence Leonard Cohen, Leonard Cohen, rest in Power, not amazing if he had written, yeah, Lawrence Decohen. And then and then right he adapted it, and then Brian de Palma produced and directed it. And that's like, that's so many like where is any woman? But it's a woman's story. And I think that that is kind of why this movie for me and a lot of movies of this era and even later like the way. I'm happy that there's a lot of women interacting in a movie, but the way they interact is kind of uncanny Valley and doesn't necessarily make sense to me. And that used to bother me when I'd watch movies like this, but then it's like, yeah, it's because it's just what we're seeing is how three different men interpret teenage girls bullying each other. And not only that, I mean I had the same thought, and like you, I actually blown up to this shamefully that I have never read any Stephen King books, which well, I don't know. I am curious because I do think he's a really interesting character. I have read some of his on writing. I think his politics seem cool, like clearly is interested in women. I do believe he's been fairly open about his own abuse as well, which is also rare for certainly for men of that generation. So you know, I have a lot of sympathy for him, even though again horror is not my genre, but I love a lot of the movies that have been based on his books. So, like you guys, I also I was like, oh, I wonder what the book is like, and I wonder how he feels about the movie and the adaptation. But several times in the movie, including the famous sequence in the beginning, I today so clearly felt that it was actually, you know, I think some men and filmmakers directors do this all the time, specifically, are unable to talk about their own fears, whether it's about masculinity or women, unless they have women portraying them. And to me that sequence today, I thought, I don't know about you guys, but I never saw a young girls and lockers behave like that. And I don't just mean and I don't just mean the throwing things. I know women can get nasty too, It's not about that, but the way it was more. First of all, the slow motion movement of tits in your face and all of which I know was supposed to be you know, romantic and beautiful or whatever, but it was what it was. But also that like they were like snapping towels on each other. And I remember at the time, the age they're supposed to be girls would just cover up like I mean, maybe you walked from the shower to something or whatever. But to me, at least, and again I'm curious about your guys experience, but the being comfortable being naked in front of women came later, like when it was my friends and you're choosing, Like when you're a teenager in high school, the last thing you want to do is for anybody to see your tids or you're asked. But here they were. It was like a playboy advertisement of what they I think what men were seeing as oh this is but also probably the way and again I wouldn't know this from personal experience, but the way dudes are right or or maybe in that generation where in locker rooms where they're much more SHOWOFFI and right, they're just sort of mapping typical male behavior onto women to basically make it a very like male gaze thing where we can see like full frontal nudity, like girls slapping each other and throwing like their clothes at each other and stuff. And by the same token, I felt the same way with you know, with the famous shot of her period started, I'm like, boy, that is some heavy flow for she's just gosh, she's a guyser. It's like real man's understanding of what a period is. I think that that whole scene plays into, like I don't know, from when we're very young. There's always like the joke where I don't like creepy uncles would be like, so, like what happens in the women's room, is there like a couch in there? Is there like a TV? Is there? You know, like like that and and and a scene like that. It's almost like, yeah, here's what your creepy uncle things is happening in your lot there, like when we get to reinterpret this like great this is and and you can see that it's you know, Brian's fantasy of like I get to shoot all these young neubile bodies and the same basically all white girls with the same body type. The one that's a little bigger whose name I forget, but she's great actors. She's the funny one because yeah, it's bigger women are funny according to But also think and also that the period thing when it comes, which again I am glad I saw this so long ago, because I do remember I think I didn't finish that thought that I think at the time I was still so glad to have like any female representation that especially if it dealt with something like getting a period or anything like that, that I was just sort of fascinated by that, whereas this time around I was a little bit more out of it, meaning I was like, none of these and and to your point about how mean everybody is. I know that the Amy Urban character eventually tries to help her, but I was like, you know, this ship happens all the time that women have accidents with their periods or you bleeds or your pants or whatever, like, we tend to help each other out with that, Like even for young girls, it seems really weird for all of them to to like start just pats on her, especially when she looks as horrified and as terrified as she does. Right, And it's relatively something that I was searching for in this movie, was more practical reasoning for the bullying, because it was just like I was hoping for, like you know, later in the story, Chris, we would understand like in a clear way she's jealous of Carrie in some way, or there's some connection between the two other than just Chris. Yes, yes, yes, it's never really girl. I mean, we get a couple of mentions of how we are she is and how she's not like others, but that's mostly coming from her when she talks to her mother later saying, I'm funny, nobody, I'm not like the other kids, right, and it's it is, it's just a little I don't know. I was just like hoping for it would have been very easy to ground that storyline a little bit of like maybe they used to be friends and now they're not, or just like a more a clear reason for women to be so aggressively mean to each other, because as it is, it just kind of seems like this is how the writers feel women treat each other would feel about each other. Yeah, I think that men have just historically seen whether or not they have actually seen this or if this is just their sort of idea of what female friendships and relationships must be like, but they just assumed that women can't get along and and they're always so cruel to each other, And then men preferred it that way to write that it's like it's easier for them to handle, as if we're just like caddy bitches like at each other. And I was also taken by the fact that with the exception of her mom and the coach, which is a whole other conversation I'm sure we'll get into, I felt like all of the other girls were consistently defined certainly by their looks, whether they were naked or not, they all kind of looked the same. And then they were competing for men and or for a beauty queen title, right, like that was the only thing that seemed to be of interest to them. And it was like, which also seems unrealistic because it's their senior year of high school and no one talks about what they're doing after high school, Like, as far as they're concerned, their life ends on prem Night and then to be it does. The most interesting character to me who wasn't Carrie was Sue, where I don't know, it's like, you see what she's doing from a teenager's perspective, but it's so misguided, right because she seems to be wanting to help break carry out of her show, but in order to do that, that means she has to just start dating, Like surely there's she's just like introducing like a romantic component into it. And it's like, well, they're like, why don't you just try to talk to her? Like, why don't you just try to befriend her? Well, that's the thing about Sue that that I thought was so interesting was like that she wanted Carrie to have a better quality of life at this high school, but she didn't want credit for it. She didn't want it to seem like she had had anything to do with it. So in Sue's mind, the way I interpreted it was like, Sue feels for this girl, but doesn't want to become less cool in the eyes of her peers by becoming friend. Yes, also, it wouldn't fit the pattern of how these guys seem to be seeing these girls because instead, like the quote unquote nice thing for her to do is to say, you know what, this girl would need to get late or you know or I mean, when I was watching it from her point of view, like I was thinking about actors and motivation, and she you know, probably she's saying, well, I think her boyfriend is nice. So she's like, maybe I can, you know, sacrifice myself by allowing Carrie to go to prom with him, because in another nutty way, you can't go to prom without a date, they say in the movie too like so so it's a sacrifice for Sue to say I won't go, you go, which again is sort of another like thing that's expected from nice women, right that they make sacrifices like that, why the dude also doesn't it's such a weird thing to do, to be like, because then he also seems to interpret it as like now we're boyfriend and girlfriend because he kisses her. Think okay, so and it becomes a romance between the two of them. So I was like, so, well, what happened to the other girl? Like was the agreement that Sue is literally giving your boyfriend because they're they're introducing a throubled component to their relationship. Well, and then the conversation that they have with the coach about it. The coach questions and like why are you doing this? What's your motivation? And he seems really confused, which was the only thing that seemed really realistic to me, Like they asked him something and he's like, I don't know what the fun is going on. It's that scene And then it's what you're talking about Jamie with like her wanting to kind of like be behind the scenes and this whole thing that made me think the first time I saw this movie was that Sue was in on Chris's scheme and that she they were trying to find a way to get her to prom so that they could sabotage her, which I thought story wise, yeah, And so I wrote this whole set of notes that it's like, oh, another teen movie about boys tricking girls to get them to proms so that they can play an awful prank on them. And then so I wrote all these notes about it, and then I was like, oh, yeah, but this time, like the schemers get their come up and unlike most movies that we've talked about where they end up kissing each other at the end. But then I was like, oh no, that doesn't even have they do seem to be innocent. Those two Sue and her boyfriend right the only ones who and the male students in this movie. I think it's kind of almost an not not responsible, but like an unusual portrayal of teen boys where they are relatively clueless and basically are And I think that this goes into writer's intent and reflects on the writer's view of women, whether that be you know, DiPalma, the screenwriter, Stephen King, I don't even know, but that these two teen boys, whether they're doing something relatively good like bringing carry to prom or bad, punishing carry it prom for no reason, it's never their idea. They're doing what a woman is telling them to do, there being two for the purposes of this story, manipulated by a woman. And I think that that reflects on how the authors view women well, and also the rage that the Travolta character has over being called stupid, because it happens like three times that that Chris calls keeps stupid, I think, And then he slaps her, and then she's she slaps him once. I don't know, it's just and there's a lot of shots of her tits too, and among those fights, so there is I think again, I felt so much more like this is not only a male interpretation of women, but a male interpretation of themselves by using women as the conduits of it. You know that so much rage comes to men if they feel belittled by women or not considered fuckable by women or whatever, But it's easier to put it on a bunch of girls, right, and then like piggybacking on that almost like in the context of this story, like blaming their female counterparts for whatever it is they end up doing, where like it's you know, Travolta's character is being told what to do and there's that scene with Chris that I mean the scene where they're in the car and they're fighting, but then it's like she in a very classically teen movie way manipulates him through sex to get him to do what she wants, where she gives him a blowjob and then all of a sudden he's willing to kill a pig like stuff like that where he's supposed to be blown him. But she was like, I hate Carrie White, right, I'm like, can anyone else speak full sentences with a dick in their mouth? Because and also like the thing, and then why does she hate her? Is it because they because the period thing? They got punished? And then she well here, yeah, here's my interpretation of that, which is that we're meant to believe that there is a young woman in this movie who is so hell bent on going to prom and who was so obsessed with prom that she will go to great and crazy and violent and horrible lengths to ruin another girl's prom experience just because she blames Carrie for not being able to go herself. But which which is wild, Like, no one is that about prom? I don't think I'm sure plenty were No, Yeah, but are they going to kill a pig and then dump its blood on a poor suspecting the killing the pig scene? That just seems really really intense. I guess the darkness of that stuff I think would have I think would have made for a better movie. And again, such character study if we understood, for example, where the Travolta and that Chris character we're coming from. Like I'm not saying, I mean, if you start thinking about it, sounds like some kind of psychosis or something. If you're going to go out at night and murder a pig with your own hands, Philip bucket of blood, like because if it's the joke, then just throw fucking paint on her, right, Like why does it have to right? But blood anyway? And I guess that's what they're trying to Um Well, I mean it's you know, it's a horror movie. You have to suspend your disbelief for quite a few things. But it does sort of it reinforces this idea. So I've talked about this a lot on and we've done a lot of teen movies recently. There's a trope that really bugs me that teen movies always seem to have to end in prom or a spring formal or some sort of big affair like that. And I think I've pinpointed why it bugs me so much, which is that when I was a girl and a young woman, and this is specific to my experience, but it I think it rings true for probably quite a few people that the big milestones that I was taught to look forward to and was taught to think are super important moments of my life were prom and my inevitable wedding, which has not and likely will not happen. But that's a story for another time. But um, like social wise or your family specifically, it was not so much my family, but certainly my peers, my teachers, movies certainly enforced this. So it was like, you know, prom is the short term goal, your wedding is your long term goal. And like both occasions are like something where you get dressed up for there's an elaborate gown, there's a big emphasis on Yeah, the focus is on romance with a man. Traditionally, both our occasions where a woman you know, traditionally may lose her virginity at the end of the night kind of thing. So these were like the things that you're like, oh, as a young woman, like these are the most exciting, the most fun great, best days of your life. I so you're resent at that, Yeah, I just I guess it just bothers me that like not enough emphasis is placed on education or career or like creative pursuits. Is that for you to growing up? I'm because I didn't grow up here, so that was we didn't half problems, so I took care of one thing, one last thing to dread. Um. I have a slightly different perspective on it, where I don't know. I mean, I've been a person who always takes a lot of comfort in rituals, and I went to a big enough high school where I went to like this gigantic inner city high school where prom like it was a deal and like almost everyone went. But I don't mind that proms and weddings exist. I think that there is definitely value in them as an idea and just a value in like coming of age. Social rituals, if you choose to participate in them, can be very valuable for some people. However, I do feel that the fact that yeah, like in media, especially that that is like the forced narrative of in a way that doesn't even really feel that realistic in terms of my life, where I would say I was thinking just as much about graduation as I was about prom like those to be two things that happened close together that we're probably at the time equally important to me. And that was like, that's fine. I don't want anyone to feel bad about wanting to go to a prom or wanting to, you know, go to I mean, I went to four proms, so it's not that I was excusing to go to them, but I just it bugged me that, like there was just so much emphasis placed on that and so little emphasis placed on things that I deemed to be more important, because like I think of how many movies teen movies end and how few movies end in a graduation ceremony with a young woman giving the valedictorian speech. Like even in this movie, even in that sequences, so much time spent on her looking very beautiful, very angelic, the crown is being placed on her. I noticed that Tommy is sort of to the side, Um, so even he seems to like not matter in that moment. It's all about but really her looks and or that is a symbol of acceptance of herself. That's suddenly because whoever has given her this moment, everything's going to be okay, right as if like the fact that she lives with a fucking insane mother and doesn't know she was going to get her period or any of the other stuff and it doesn't matter, and like the movie will like you can tell just by that, Like you're saying how that moment is presented, like this is the everybody moments like yeah something, which I was like, I thought you all hated her. Why are you so excited for her? Except for the coach, the mob mentality and this room is very weird. They're all down for whatever. The bucket fallen on his head and knocking him out. I laughed so much. It's like an empty two pound bucket. It's like, why why is that there is that a backup bucket? Grill? I guess it was because they wanted to figure out if he's not knocked out, can't he try to stop her or help her somehow, So they needed to get him out of the way. Decoy bucket with the slow motion bucket. I do. I totally agree with that you're saying, Kitler, where it's like the way that prom and weddings are portrayed in media are so aspirational and so clearly I mean to sell stuff. Uh, not just to sell you on the idea of like her events, but to literally sell you items. Yeah, I mean I think that this movie that's keeping with its view of women in general. I think that it's like it's also saying, like, well, what would be the most important thing to ever happen to this girl winning prom queen? Because in you know, Stephen King Brian to Palma's eyes, Well, yeah, that's what all teenage girls want, right, So it's just again, it's just like reinforcing this vague idea that no one has asked a woman about at all. And earlier in the movie, Carrie explains to her mother like people think I'm funny, but not in a hey, I'm a hilarious stand up comic kind of way and a people think I'm unusual and weird and alienating kind of way. And she expresses a desire to fit in which I think is is very normal for that age. Yeah, but then they like extend that too. Oh but so she's gonna want to be the prom queen obviously, and and yeah, it is a very male understanding of what a teen girl must want. It literally is. I mean, I think Stephen King was, like I think he's in his mid twenties when he wrote this or something. It was his first published book, but like he's writing how he thinks teenage girls would act, and as a guy ten years older than a teenage girl who has never been a teenage girl. So and I think that that just informs so much about what this did. You guys, as teenagers either partake or witness in that kind of like that kind of like group female bullying. Not that I'm saying that that means it doesn't happen or does, but I'm just curious, because I was really trying. I've had girls and women being mean to me, like one on one, and you know, some like look stuff and ship like that on the street or whatever. But I've never the intense bullion that either I suffered or saw was almost always dudes. Which I'm not saying women didn't do it, but I'm just curious if you guys have witnessed that. I've never seen it in the way it's portrayed in this movie, because it's just in this movie is just violent and baseless, and and and it doesn't stopped. It like goes on and on and on the and then I mean not just in that scene, but then obviously in a long term planning kind of way. Yeah, I've never seen a universal hatred of a single person the way that people hate Carrie. I don't know. I think when I was picked on in like middle school in high school would be like small groups uh same, yeah, like maybe just a small small group of you know, four or five people would be like, hey, she sucks, right, let's go funk with this one. Right. Yeah. I I've never seen it or experienced it anywhere close to how it's represented in this movie. Do you guys think it's it's a fear of periods as well? Like I thought about that a lot because her mother fears it hasn't told her about it. But then there's also again if the girls are actually the guys, Like I kept thinking, why are you scared of that? It's well, you know, women come not just into their so called womanhood, but really it's your ability to bear children, right, And maybe that's what is also scary to two men about it that like now you can't just like fuck them in discriminately. There might be a child involved in it, Like, I don't know if that's says I see that. I mean, it's like the fact that in this movie, the cause and effect is like she gets her period, now she can do evil things. And then just like I guess that's what brought that on, because it's never hinted that she she didn't have this power before. It doesn't seem that way because it starts with the light bulb and even she doesn't really seem to know what's going on. It's the power of life and death. I guess like comes with her period, right, Yeah, like she has. I would have liked that if I had gone to my period and come canny whatever it's called you kinetic. Well, this is and and just because we just watched Teeth yesterday, this is where the girlfriend Teeth succeeds. Where Carrie does not succeed is she learn it is to harness and control her power. And then where Carrie it seems like and this is probably a more realistic read of a teenage girl one way that I found. It's like she suddenly has this new thing happened to her, and she doesn't quite understand it yet. And she doesn't quite know how to control it. That I think is realistic. What I don't think is realistic is that it means you are going to hell and everyone dies. But you know, right, yeah, the ending of this movie. Sometimes periods feel like that that I have felt that way, like locking myself in a closet as my house just sends to hell. But I don't know that Stephen King or Brian Opauma knew that. But I mean there's I thought you bleed with you. And there's also that hilarious scene after in the in the Whoever he is the headmaster's office with the coach where also she's smoking, which I love and more in short shorts, and and they talked quite openly about periods in a way that I also, well, the headmaster cannot say the word, he cannot even he like really skirts around the issue. But then he's like, who would have thought that this term? And age like a young girl wouldn't know about anything, which again is like a veiled like slut shaming. Uh. And then her her mother, whenever she finds out that carry has gotten her period says something like, if you hadn't sinned, the curse of blood would never come upon you. And right, I'm like, like, you don't have it? Like, right, are we meant to believe that her mother is not menstruating? But that's I mean, but the mother is insane. But I actually I remembered my mother telling me years ago, I'm from Spain, I was born and grew up there, and I know this isn't the only country where that happens, but that when she first got her period, my mom and told her mother that her mother slapped her. And that was a very common thing to do because it was it was equated with original sin, which they do in this movie too, which again is so fucked up. So like original sin, being knowledge means that we were cursed by having periods. So therefore, like the welcoming into womanhood was a slap in the face, which is pretty tremendous. My mom had a similar experience where she wasn't hit, but she was made to feel very bad when she first got her period by her mom. Yeah, it's like a generational code switch, which and I think that there's like probably something between carry and and most of us, you know, grew up generations after this and weren't quite steeped in this carry verse, where so much emphasis is put on this stuff. But yeah, I just thought I should myself. I just thought I should myself. When I got my period the first time and I didn't say anything for days, I'm like, I can't stop shooting. Yeah, And then like two days later my mom was like, is everything okay? I was just acting weird? She told you about it prior to this or no, no, she thought that, well she I don't know. I think I must have known it existed, but I never got sex said in school and it happened to me. Yeah, Well, here you think are the implicated ations of this or like people's like subconscious reaction to this, which is like, oh my daughter or this you know, this young girl is becoming a woman. That means she's probably going to start having sex soon and that's bad and that's impure and that's evil and that you know, very like I think there's very slot shamy implications to this reaction. And that's another maybe generation thing where for Carrie's generation at least, it's implied in the context of this story that the symbolism of it is like that she is now a woman who is you know, like somehow more dangerous. She's able to carry a child now, where by the time I was getting a talk about when I finally was like, hey, maybe this isn't ship my my, my mom, and all my friends sort of more closely associated getting your period with the beginning of puberty as opposed to like childbearing or anything like that. Like we were just like, oh my god, I got my period. That means maybe I'll get boobs soon. For of us, that just never happened. But like, but yeah, like you should have massaged them with soap like carry does in a movie, Like just broke to myself in a public shower. Maybe that would just eggamon. I don't know. Yeah, so much to to unpack with this movie. We just we just did a tight twenty minutes on period blood alone, and it's various interpretations in this movie. Let's take a quick break and then we'll be back for more cool and we're back. Um, there's still a few key characters we haven't really gotten to discuss at length yet, which are Carrie's mom and Carrie's coach at school. The coach character, it was really interesting to me. This was not a character I was familiar with going into I knew the Mom. I knew that there was like a villainous girl who pours pig blood on carry. I didn't know about Sue. I didn't know about the Coach, And they would ended up being to the for me, like the most thought provoking characters because they exist in this in between space where I don't know, like, I saw more of myself in characters like that than any of the you know, anyone on the cartoonish end of the more of yourself on the in the Coach, not in the Coach, mostly in in Sue. But let's talk about the Coach with its coach ms Collins. Ms Collins, She's, yeah, the fizz ed teacher. And because there are I would say four main relationships that Carrie has with other women, and I would say two of them are fall on the positive end of the spectrum. I wouldn't necessarily call them positive relationships, but they're more on that end of the spectrum. And then the two very negative relationships on that end of the spectrum is her mother and Chris are the negative ones, and Coach are the positive ones. Yeah, And it's interesting because it's for the most part, her relationship with Sue kind of plays out unbeknownst to her. Yeah, they never relate to one another. No, it's like everything that's happening between them, Carrie doesn't even I don't think she ever finds out about really, which isn't because she even says, I know, you know Tommy asked me, but they're just making fun of me because I know she goes with like he doesn't even say her name, because Sue does run with the mean girls, and we see there's like one point when they're at like Jim detention. I know, is that needlessly long male gazey scene of all their bodies doing jumping jacks and really crazy like electronic music that is so totally that whole scene a minute and a half long. Why the total inconsistencies of that scene are wild six comes. It's true there is like one moment more slapping in that scene too. There is more slapping in that scene because female and female violence coins be slapping in this scene. I just I'm baffled by ms Collins. I mean, I don't have. By the way, also to give context to the young ones as the as the resident old person in the house, this character, until I'm sure very recently was almost always referred to as the lesbian like. The assumption was always that she was in love and wanted Carrie and that that's why. I mean, I know I've heard that so many times, which I remembered watching it. I was like, do you hence why she's so unhappy? Do you think that that is what the story is implying or is that just what people thought? I didn't that, I mean, certainly what people thought. I don't know. Again, it was also before my time, although I saw it earlier than you guys, So I don't know if that would have been immediately assumed at the time in a way that it is. And now, yeah, there is like a trope of women gym teachers and coaches in media that they seem to present us being fairly but all the way up to Glee, that's why she's always Yeah, she's always exercising, she's smoking and wearing short shorts and making the girls do it and slapping them around. And also in another baffling scene, she seems to be upset at who they're going to the prom with. Remember when she asked them, boy, who's taking you to prom? And she's like tell me, and she gets like teary eyed to invested, which I don't understand. I was like, is she into the guys or did she not get taken to prom? But then I don't. I mean, I found her as a character very baffling. I didn't understand. Like hearing that does help me a little if that is what the story is supposed to be implying, even like sub textually, yeah, because she is like a character who at some points or like I know what she's doing, and other points you're like, where is she going with this? Really? Not sure? Right? Because the first scene we see her in is when she's coming to console Carrie after she's been violently bullied, but she slaps her first, but she slaps her and then she tells that slapping that lady. Yeah, She's like, get a calm down and get a hold of yourself, and then she apologizes and she says sorry, I didn't know Carrie, and then she comforts her. And then there's that scene where she talked where Ms. Collins talks to the principle and she's like, I really identified with the girls because I just wanted to shake her and be like, don't you know what a period is? So she's like, but then later on she punishes all the women who were bullying her and wants to ban them all from prom, and you know, she gives them all detention to everything like that. You know, she's like, didn't you stop to think of carry had feelings? So she's advocating for Carrie. Then she finds out that she's been asked to prom. She's like, oh, you know, you need to change her attitude about yourself. Just put on some mess scare and some lipstick. The part in the Coach that I recognized again, it's like there's a few the few characters who are the closest things we have two allies to carry are people who have at least good intentions, but that doesn't mean they really do her any good. And certainly the only one who shows her real kindness absolutely to her face. Yeah, and it's but the thing with the teacher is like, and this is something like I remember from being younger of a teacher who is like, yeah, you're weird, and like a teacher who genuinely wants your life to be better, but the only way they know of to make your life better is to be like, so just be normal, Like why can't like do normal stuff and then people will like you, which is I don't think a good message to send a young girl at all, but I understand why she's saying it, and I and it seems clear that she's trying to do a good thing. She wants Carrie's life to be easier, but doesn't really care if that comes at the sacrifice of like Carrie being herself. Also, I guess no one. I also found it really interesting that no one ever brings up I mean, even in that conversation where they're like, it's so weird that she doesn't know about periods that they just blame Carrie that. And I know there's a phone call to the house that we don't hear informing the mother that Carrie has gotten her period, but like why nobody thinks to investigate or or well, it does kind of get explained away by the principle when he's just like, oh, well, I guess we shouldn't be surprised knowing that mother or of hers, But yeah, nothing further than that gets lord to me. Was also something that was really sad in this one and that I definitely identified with in the first viewing, and even now that so often kids who are abused end up being blamed themselves for their behavior, and nobody questions why it's there, you know, and nothing is really done right, Like you have a sixteen year l seventeen year old who's getting her period and it's horrified and doesn't know like something's up. You know. Well, I think that the and the way that that's like kind of cast off is like by introducing another kind of malleable, incompetent male character, the principle who can't even remember carry's name, much less actually do anything to be helpful. Um, every time something like that happened, and she showed in this case she flips his ashtray and breaks it. I really wish I could do that in those instances where like men don't listen or say my name wrong or anything like that. Like I wish I could just flip an ashtray or close a window or like throw a bucket on their face or something, and then like, I don't need to do anything else. I'm not going to kill you and jostle your step of that aspect of it. Again, I thought, did you guys feel her power at all? Eventually? Even if she's killing everybody, Like, did you feel like yeah, girl or no, well yeah, but I have some complicated feelings about this. I wanted to read a quote from what Stephen King said about his book Carrie. He says, Carrie is largely about how women find their own channels of power, but also what men fear about women and women's sexuality. Writing the book in nineteen seventy three and only three years out of college, I was fully aware of what women's liberation implied for me and others of my sex. Carry is woman feeling her powers for the first time, and like Sampson, pulling down the temple on everyone in sight at the end of the book. So he sees this character as a very empowered woman who's coming into her own and die. That's the thing. So there are a lot of female empowerment stories. Well they're not a lot of those stories, but of the female empowerment stories that are available to us, a lot of them are about a woman being wronged then they enact revenge, often violently. Um, we see this in this movie. We see it and kill Bill Selman, Louise mad Max Fury Road, Legend of Billy Jean, the Teeth episode that we have coming out, We talked about that, and I would say there's a huge shortage of women empowerment stories where we just get to see women being awesome without either having to be the victims of of a bad thing that happened to them and or like just not having to seek revenge on someone. They're just cool and good at something and they're empowered that way. And then with Carrie at the end, she's essentially punished for being empowered and coming into her own because then she dies. So it's you can see this as a female empowerment story, but how empowered really is she at the end when her house collapses on her? Right? I mean, I think I definitely ladge onto the catharsis of let it fucking burn sometimes, where obviously what Kerry does is not a real world solution, but I think it is representative of you know, I mean, it certainly sounds like Stephen King is basically copying to, like kind of openly coping to Like, Yeah, woman who's fully in control of her powers and abilities is scary to people, especially at this point in history. I don't know. I mean, again, it's like there is a part of any abused woman or person I'd imagine that has this fantasy of like let it burn, and it's almost like cleansing by fire, of like I've been wronged, I'm angry and fuck you guys, and and you know, so I see I think it's yeah, And to your point earlier, I think I hear you because sometimes I'm like, you know, and I have this issue in my own movie too that some women have criticized of like because she's a survivor as well in the film, and there's an element of you know, she burns down an entire jam with her telekinetic powers, right, I mean, you know, but but um so I get it. But I think sadly where we are right now so much of our narrative because you know that empowerment means you're overcoming some horrible thing that happened to you. I know that that's not true for every woman. And I'm also thinking, as a filmmaker, I don't know how you make that dramatic. I think the then the other stories become movies where like women are interesting, flawed, powerful, week all of the above, just like men are often treated that have nothing to do with whether they're righting or wrong or not right. So like I love terms of endearment or those kinds of films where it's like, well, nothing horrendous happened to anybody in there. They're just interesting and funked up characters and and equally so men and women, which I think is a really positive thing. But I don't know what I was thinking, Like, what's the empowerment, Like is it Beyonce at the super Bowl or a Coachella like, And you know, I don't know what's happened in her without corporate sponsorships. I suppose it doesn't even have to be especially empowering. But the thing about us seeing women's stories is because there are not nearly enough of them. Just seeing a woman doing cool things instead of having a specific goal and setting out to accomplish it and then succeeding in that would just be empowering because we see so little of that in media currently. I think that there's room for both, though, oh sure, sure, I think that there there's an except I don't even know if an excess, but there's a shortage of women being able to like live their lives and have goals and accomplish them in stories in a fun way that doesn't involve her having to die at the end. I don't know, but yeah, well that's something I wanted to talk about, was like, where where does the movie fall on Carrie, because we're and again I'm sure I can I can see it already. I can see our Twitter feed with people being like in the book, We're being straight with you, we have not read the book. This is not podcast about books. So what we're talking about right now Bookheads is how it appears in the movie and what the adaptation is in the movie. For what I could tell, the movie, it has a very inconsistent stance on Carrie, where there are some moments where it's so clear it's like, yes, she is suffering, she's being abused, and you know, it's like you want to help her and you want people there to be doing more to help her. But then in the end sequence, you know, she kills everyone, and then we're like, this isn't good, including her own mother, who who is the source of as far as we know, or you know where her pain is coming from, which you know it's horrendous as that is, I kind of justify in the in the idea of the movie, you're like, Okay, this horrendous thing happened though she's killed everybody. Now she's gonna you know, she washes herself and then you know, her mother tries to kill her, and then she kills her. But then even in that there seems to be like an what's it called the macino or where that? Like? Where is this house going to? And where what does that have to do with killing tenetic powers? And what does that mean about how like the story feels about her? And then she also once again seems to be feel bad that she killed her mother, but it's punished for it anyway, which again I also think brings up a question of justification. It's like, should you, you know, be allowed to defend yourself against your abuse or like this woman was about to kill her right, so yeah, I mean I think you've had that gone to court Carrie has. Yeah, well the thing that makes it but it makes it so sad that you know, again, as someone who who's been through a lot of that, I felt, you know, I recognized that so many abused kids often want to defend themselves but then fall prey to the same behavior. So like when she hugs the mother and hides in the closet with her I found that extremely sad and in a weird way realistic, you know, even if we're suspending belief about everything else that's happening in the in the movie, and so it may mean incredibly sad to then be like these are one and the same, like let's just take them down. And then the sign that says she lives in hell, I'm like, why, you know, yeah, And maybe it's supposed to be open ended in ambiguous and we're all supposed to decide how we feel about this character. But it's like, we see her kill all her students, You're like, but then we understand why to an extent, and then she doesn't kill anyone without some cause her mother is literally trying to kill her. So yeah, she gets killed, but but Carrie feels immediate remorse for this. She clearly had love for her mother because you know, in the scene before, she's like begging her mother to just hold her and be there for her, and her mom can't do that for her. So it's it is also never never approached why the mother is the way that she is, you know. Yeah, And and then the house goes to these things don't come out of nowhere, you know, And then the movie ends on what I thought was like a note of empathy for Carrie, of like she never did anything wrong, and you know, look what happened to her, and now everyone is dead and Sue comes up with the flowers and it's like, okay, so this is where the virginal she's dressed in white flowers. And then it's like, yeah, the angel comes to bring the flowers to Carrie, who's whatever, and and you were like, okay, so this that made sense to me as an ending. But then it's like no, she's at hell and the hand reaches out and you're just like where what it was? Confused? The ending almost felt to me like it might have been I don't remember how he made this movie, but it could have been like studio notes, like yeah, you know, one last jump scared I did. I did jump at the thought it was ending. I want to talk about a few scenes that are I would say less open to interpretation because they're pretty clearly bad. Uh way. And that is the scene where Tommy Ross asks Carrie to prom It happens twice the first time there in the library. He's like, hey, do I want to go to prom? And she runs away. She books it out of there, no pun intended because they're in a library, So we interpret that to be a hard now. Yeah, that's I would say, that's a hard now. And then the aftermath of that is, you know, Carrie is processing this information. She seems upset because she thinks, as she explains to Ms Collins, that he and his pals are playing a trick on her, and Ms Collins like, no, you know, I think it's just that you're not confident enough, so put on some makeup and you'll be fine. So then second time is when Tommy goes to Carrie's house uninvited, shows up at her front door. He mentions prom again. She's like, I already told you. He's know nothing I can say to change your mind. Girls do it all the time because you know, girls be fickle. Um, she says, why are you doing this? So she's not as naive as I think most audiences interpretation of Carrie usually is, it's like, you know, she's rightfully paradided. Everyone's with her because everyone coach says that earlier. She's like, we're not as stupid as you think we are. And now there's a renovation behind you, right, So she says why are you doing this? And he says because I want to. She says I can't. He says, yes you can. She says you better go, not till you say yes. He says, She says no, I can't. Yes you can. She says again, I said I can't. He says again, yes you can't. Will you please? And as she says will you please go, she's telling him to leave, he says not till you say yes. He repeats that line. She's says why is this so important to you? And he's like, oh, because you liked my poem? And then finally he has worn her down. This is like the scene in the Notebook where he's like, I read the dune to kill myself unless you go down, yeah, and then like oh, jomp if you don't got a prom with me, like ye, So um, it's not quite that, but it's him asking her over and over saying I'm not going to leave until you say yes, and finally she says yes, but only it's after he's worn her down five So yeah. The the implications of this are upsetting and then uh and also because as the audience, we know she I actually think she probably does want to say yes. And would like to go, but has a very clear reason why she can't because her fucking psychotic mother will try to stab her. So had Tommy just stopped forcing the issue and not like, you know, done this whole like very typical movie. I'm not going to leave you alone until you do what I want. You know, we could have a lot of lives. Could have been saying, can you blame it on on on her loving poetry or on him writing poetry? I think, yeah, Like maybe the moral of the story is that boy shouldn't write. Don't you didn't even stop promoting male? Oh I still I played yourrized, So he does because I thought the whole thing was that it was his and she says it's so beautiful, and then the fucking male teacher also makes fun of her. I know that was that was over. I was like, would someone truly that sound beautiful? I think? And he keeps looking at the coach to remember and the yeah, yeah, I read that. I was like a lot of really strange characters in this. Well. Another troubling moment happens a little bit later, when Tommy and Carrie are at prom and he's like, come on, dance and She's like, I can't I know what, I don't know how. He's like, don't do it. So she reluctantly agrees, and I start dancing, and then he tries to a surprise kiss, or he goes in for a surprise kiss. She pulls away and then immediately starts apologizing, and he's like, no, it's okay, and she's like, no, I don't know how to do anything. I can't do anything. I don't know how to dance, and I don't know how to kiss is what she is implying, and then he kisses her. Basically, what is dangerous about this is that it sends the message that if at first a woman says no or rebuffs a man's advance. I mean, we talked about this all the time. It's yeah, it's like, it's not because she doesn't want to. It's because she's shy, or she's unsure of herself, or she's not confident enough, and you just got to go for build her confidence. And people now ask if it's okay to kiss all the time? Is this the norm? I do it. I the rare times that I've kissed anyone, I'll be like, hey, should we make out? And then I've found it's weird in the past couple of years. That is sort of now at this point as as a sometimes kisser people, Yeah, usually people be like is this cool, and then wow, that's really different. Yeah. I think that that is like a change. I mean even in like my own romantic experience, that that is a shift that's taken place in the past couple of years. I'm personally for it. I think it's fun. There's for fun banter before kissing. You're just like you're just like, nope, just get it. And even if there's not a fun treating, well no, I mean that was the thing that I always remember when I was very young, so we were kids, but this kid that I kind of liked was like, can I kiss you? And I thought, oh, I was he asking, Like I felt like I was giving like every signal in the book to be kiss But again, then I've had it both ways, you know, so it's like if it's something you want, which I feel like, oh, I'm putting out those vibes and and I feel like I'm reading them the same way, then it's great when it happens and like nothing gets said because it feels like you're finally both agreeing to it. But then I've also had a lot of dudes kissed me when I want them, not want to be kissing. So I think that that is, you know, a cultural moment thing where everyone is just reevaluating that like anything, because it's it's not to say that every kiss that's taken place without you know, a brief conversation before it takes place is not consensual. But I don't know. I mean, I think it's just like right now, we're in a place culturally where it's just become clear that everyone, depending on who they are, with their background is what privilege or lack of privilege they've come to be with, has a different idea of what being on the same page is. And so that's why these conversations are happening. And yeah, I mean, what's his face? Who plays Superman? Came out recently with all those remarks where it's clear that he does not understand what consent is. Still, so Henry Cavill, Henry Cavill is like, I can't even ask a woman out anymore or else I'm going to go to jail. And it's like, dude, you need to learn because there right where it's just like I think it's it's to those things where I feel like it's almost going to take a generation or two to sort of reset cleansing by fire if you're just waiting for us all to die. Uh of like everyone's grown up with such a warped idea of what consent is that right now, it just seems like the smartest thing to do to verbally make sure, Okay, this is how I'm interpreted the issue with that, there's also an assumption that a they're going to listen, So if you say no, that doesn't mean that it stops there? Right, and we see that, right, he's a lot right and be that um that sometimes. And I do think this is still like an issue for a lot of women, And I hope that that's one of the things that I would like to change and certainly talk about in my movie of of how do we get in the confidence to say no when we want to say no? Because for plenty of reasons that I can imagine, especially young girl has been in a situation where they feel like, oh, I don't really want a kiss, but maybe I should say yes. But if I say no, am I? But then it gives right and then but then guys are like, as long as I'm getting that verbal you know what I mean, Like it's more complicated than just like a legal thing, where like well she said, yes, I totally agree. I just think that it's and I'm not even saying that that approach is the full proof way of consent, but it seems like it used to step in the right direction that hasn't existed as sort of like a rule of sorts in culture up to this point. It's definitely and yeah, unfortunately it won't prevent everything. I well, I also feel like some of these things really are masking the fact that, like, you know, I think the guys who are going to take advantage of women and don't want to read the signs or don't give a fuck have been there for a while and we'll probably continue to be there. Like I've also, you know, I'm kind of okay, Like I remember the guys who like, clearly we're reading the wrong signs Slash probably liked me more than I like them kiss me. I was like, whoa, what's happening? Not into it? And they were like sorry by to me. That sort of feels like okay, Like you know, I mean, it's awkward, but it's not I don't think criminal. It's like, you know, I think I think, yeah, that's the yeah. I mean, I wouldn't feel violated if someone just like, you know, went in for a kiss, even if our lips met, you know, and I just wasn't feeling it and you know, back away saying no thanks, that's not for me. Uh. And then as long as he says oops, sorry and then doesn't keep trying to persist, that's, you know, a mistake. That's what I mean. Like to me, that's very different, like, Okay, clearly I was reading it the wrong way, and then I'm out of here. I'm not going to be an asshole. I'm like keep you know. But honestly, my preference if some guy is like misreading my signals would be for him to have it kind of in his head to be like, so, like do you want to make out and maybe like as opposed to him as its opposed to having that awkward interaction, and it's a simple like it's you know, that's it's like you're saying, it's not the end of the world. But I think it is a step in the right direction to eliminate that and and the same with the cleansing. Uh with as as generations go on, just teaching kids basic consent seems important. And and at the point, I'll just be like, follow your heart, because some people's hearts are evil. And and the point I'm trying to make, which we've made on the podcast many times before, is that many many movies like equip boys with these tools to you know, there were scenes play out where it's a boy being rejected over and over again, but then wearing the woman down and that working and the girl then falling in love with this boy. So the general wrong and that if a guy, if you keep saying no to a guy, as long as he keeps coming back and hammering you with the same question, that that's that's romantic. That's that's what the movie will have you believe, which brings me back to my everyone's grandparents love story is disturbing, right and wherever when my grandparents would describe how they met, now, I'm just like, what, he just followed you around in his car and yelled at you, and then you were his wife and you loved him. Uh, you know, it's there's definitely a weird sort of cultural dissonance with that. I have one last quick thing. I wanted to talk about that last scene between Carrie and her mom before the scary knife and then the mini scary knives and then they died, because there is that conversation that takes place between the two of them. Carrie has just taken her bath, she's cleansed herself of the blood of her peers. Great uh. She finds her mom. Her mom says, I should have killed myself when he put it in me. And then they have this conversation where it's weird because you you was sort of start to feel empathy for Carrie's mom and then she immediately sells it up like stabbing carry. But for like a minute there, you're like, oh my gosh, you know, she is also someone who is in incredible pain, where like you were saying about like we don't know what the relationship between the mother and the father was, like it seems like it could have been. You know, when she says I smell alcohol and his breath like that, we get a hint in there, but again it's done in this like she's insane as opposed to you know, like she's such an unreliable narrator that we can't really well. And I think that the like they take away from me with that character was like she was describing like sexual desire in a way that sounded so like she thought she had to reject sexual desire. So when it happened, it was painful to her and it was like full of shame, to the point where a few minutes later when she's like, you know, Jesus Christ, Superstars stabbed to death, the way she dies as kind of like yeah, like and it's almost like, I don't know, it's it seemed like it was referencing the conversation they just had where she seems to be at peace. Yeah, like her the idea of sexual pleasure caused her pain, and then when she has pain, there's some expression of pleasure. I don't know, And so what does that mean to Stephen King? Like I keep thinking about the quote you just read, and especially because he says women's lip, which again I think the period having babies thing is relevant to that because the pill had such a huge consequence that way, you know, And I know that men are often terrified, even if it's in this Like I remember when I was pregnant and I wasn't big enough to show that something like I would tell men I was working with or something like oh, by the way, I'm pregnant, and almost always there was this like moment of fear in their face like it wasn't me, you know, like not my baby. And I thought, it's so interesting. It's like it's like it's like centuries of of I don't know if something that I I I don't know if this is true, but it felt to me like even from you know, I mean, and I know a lot of men want to become parents and happily so and all that, but that there's still this weird, like an animal thing of like oh shit, like I'm out of here, you know. Anyway, I wonder if that was because again I think period stands for fertility here, right, And and it's so interesting that of course her mother is unable to love her in any way, like she seems happier when she locks Carrie and a cosset and then she's like sewing happily by herself, which is also you know, and I mean from what I know, and clearly I'm not a therapist, but you know, women who are unable to love their children in that way, it's like a pathological issue. So again it's never said if Carrie's mother is like this, because is she just pathologically insane or did something happened to her got her this way? And I for sure would have liked to know something, because again I think it clear stuff out. My one of my issues with this kind of abuse in movies is that like it, by it never being explained it it just continues to be a taboo that like, well, I don't I should I don't know. It's like, actually, we don't know how this stuff happens. And and just like that, the concept that depicting abuse is enough, you know, but it's like not examining it just means you're kind of perpetrating like abuse because you're just showing it happening, and it's like okay, acknowledging that this happens in the world and not common to go on. It's almost worse than not doing anything at all. It's just oh, well, I can I can keep going, but it's weird. Lawrence Brian and Stephen the Boys. The Boys had something to say about the fifteen year old girls and that they missed a little Shall we determine whether or not the movie passes the Bechtel test. It sure does. It does quite a bit. Yeah, all the damn time, all the damn time. I just want to read a few of my favorite passes. U. MS Collins says to Chris, spit out that gum. Chris says, where will I put it? MS Collins, she says, you can choke on it for all I care. Another great line. Yeah, there's a lot of ones where like MS Collins is like, I'm going to knock you down, vaguely threatening their students. Yeah, but it's vaguely. I mean, she's all over. But it passes between Carrie's mom and Sue's mom. Um, it passes between Carrie and her mom, it passes between ms Collins and carry There's a lot of different combinations. And I would say, and they do talk a lot about men though they do. Yeah, but there are an awful way more conversations than I was expecting to pass. I think that one of the things that stuck out to me too, as I forget what alternative test it is, But a lot of the time that they're talking very frequently, it is about it's about religion, it's about shame, it's about just stuff that's happening in the scene, but it is also very often about something domestic or something beauty related. A lot of the time it passes it's because they're talking about prompt um. But for I mean, for a movie of this time, it is a female centric story. Most of the men in this story are kind of complicit goof ases who are never really central. And it's periods at the forefront of it, which I'm sure in was standing right, sure, and the fact that this movie was like a hit on top of that is right. But I think the period is only featured so prominently because that's such a scary and disgusting thing to men that because this is a horror movie, they're like, what can we put in here to make this more horrific? Oh, how about menstruation? So well, let's write the movie on our nipple scale, where we have a scale of zero to five nipples. We rate it based on its portrayal and representation of women. I'm going to give it. I think a two and a half or three were saint. It's like we're menstrual letting our um because women entirely drive this narrative. If there are men it's they're only doing things because women asked or told them to do things. So women have all the agency in this story, they're making all the active decisions. It can be interpreted as a story of female empowerment. That's certainly how Stephen King intended to write it based on that quote I read. But it's also a very male understanding of what femininity is, of what female relationships are, of how you know, women operate in the world. So had this same or similar story been written or directed by a woman, I think we would have seen something very different. Um, I'm interested what the situation is with the various you know, remakes and sequels and stuff like that are not familiar enough to comment on it. But yeah, it's it's a story her. A woman's period also means she's telekinetic and and she gets her inact revenge on hers. But also, wouldn't that be cool if your period just didn't mean like, oh, so I'm gonna go with I think two and a half nipples and giving nipples to my nipples too. I'll give we see both spacetics nipples, So I'll give you to her, and I'll give my last half nipple to ms. Collins, the fizz ed teacher who her intentions and motivations are inconsistent, but it seemed to overall be on the positive end of the spectrum. I'll go too and a half as well. I think that this is just like again there. I would think that this story would be portrayed a little clearer and a little differently if women had been involved in production at literally any point. Um And I wish that we had that product to be like, Okay, here's a woman's story as interpreted by all straight white men, and here's a woman's story interpreted by a group of women. Um And what what things are different that that? Should they honestly should give a piece of source material to a group of men and in a group of female few makers and see what happened. Hair. In contrast, a lot of the stuff that bothers me about this movie, I don't like that Carrie, for having control of her powers or some sort of control, is sent to Hell, and that goes relatively unchallenged to like. The last frame of the movie is like, she's sure in hell, all right? Uh, But a lot of the things about period in a week later, she's she's in Hell. I was like, man, is her period even over at this point? Like she's does she have a fucking tampone? Because I don't think can we have the scene where she goes shopping for them she has the ones that got soaked in the shower. I guess already. I believe it's all the way home. I can't tell if this movie all takes place in the space of carrious period. But also I've burned it down. I also kind of like that little kid she throws off his bike. Yeah, kid's last name is di Palma. I'm guessing it's Brian and his kids. It's like, toss you off a bike today, son. The more I think about Stephen King's books, the more I think this is his issue, because the one with James con where his fucking ankles are broken, which is a great movie, but I mean it's a woman imprisoning him in a fucking bed, Like this guy is terrified of women. Yeah, A lot of things that bothered me about this movie specifically were subtextual, like every time we see a group of women, specifically the opening scene is very bizarre. We I think, between the three of us have reached a conclusion that this is not something that happens in the real world. And and just the way women are filmed in this movie. I don't know who's doing this cinematography. I have a guess at their gender, uh is like it's so many women's nude torsos or like there's a nip peeking through it. And it's very exploits towards the panding up and down a lot of times, like with the fact that Carries groping herself in the shower, and just all the scenes the nudity for the most part is gratuitous completely And again who showers like that in the lockers room? Like she's like, especially after having been bullied out in the field, She's like, time to soap out my breast, especially as someone as like conservative is Carrie, And it makes no sense, like so that's not how a modest person showers, and and and the same for the gym scene where it's just you know, we're following a butt walk past breasts and it's that for two minutes, and so it for a story that features mainly women, the women are constantly objectified by the movie they're in, even if they're not really objectified been the men around them, because there's not really enough men around them to be doing that. Uh So, as well crafted a movie as it is, the way women are framed in this movie really bothered me. And the fact that it's, you know, all white women with the same body type basically, with the exception of one girl who is played I would argue as a joke. I mean that is really only there to pull funny faces, like we don't know anything about her nothing. Yeah, and that Jim scene made it extremely obvious to me. Where you're panning on that long line of girls doing the things, I'm like, they all have the exact same thing. It's you know, in terms of any sort of variety of types of women we see, we see a lot of women, but it's the same type of women we're seeing multiple times. So that sucks and I don't like it. But there there are a lot of good things that we have discussed within There's there's a lot of like on the right track nous to this story. But unfortunately, I think because there are no women involved in the making of this story, a lot of it kind of misses or it kind of gets uncanny value. So I'm going two point five. I'll give one to carry, give one to Sue, and I'll give one to the car that blows up. Am I doing this as well? Okay, well, clearly I'm not not as a dept as you guys had given out nipples, but I'm probably gonna go with two. Okay, it's surprising considering, like, I think it works as a movie. But I think my conclusion today is that to your point, like, I don't think it's a movie that's concerned with understanding women at all. I think it's about the male fear and psychosis of women, and in particular their power as understood by the coming on of the period. And in that way, I find it really disappointing. Meaning, you know, take it a little further. So I'm supposed to give nipples to the people anything you want. I mean, obviously I feel for Carrie a lot, so I mean I wish that more background or or character could have. I mean, we essentially also don't know her beyond you know the fact that she gets her period and then these powers. That's true, Like what is Carrie interested in? I don't know what. The motivations of almost every main character are not very clearly defined, and they all but they're all doing things that should be motivated and yet they are not. And I'll probably give my other one to mom actually because I feel for her as well, although you know she's a horrendous mother to her. But I feel like I'm going to believe that there's not that to justify it, but that there's somewhere. But I don't know. I just feel like again completely misunderstood character who nobody wanted to take the care to figure out. Yeah, most female movie character and also mom's mom's get a really rotten deal in a lot of movies, especially the ones written or erected by men. I mean, who I think are working out their issues with moms. So like the moms and the characters are either angelical and kiss you and put you to bed or stab you to death or yeah, thank you so much, thank you. I can keep doing this for hours. I love it. I know. Yeah, there's it's as always, there's truly never enough time. UM so tell us about All About Nina. It came out last week, and is there any where can we follow you? And that project on social media? All About Nina film is the website and and that should it tells you where where it's playing and where you can buy tickets. It's playing in New York in l A and then other markets are going to open as we go along. And because it is a sort of smaller independent movie, you know, we could use the support where not a Marvel film that's opening and like five tho screens at once and that everybody's heard about or anything like that. But it does seem to be hitting the spot with a lot of survivors. And actually not just that, but I think women who are feeling rage these days, which seems to be a lot of us, say, for example, carry too. We yeah, yeah, Kavanaugh hearings all of that stuff. So okay, great, everyone go see the damn movie. It's really and it's fun. There's fingering jokes and there's period diarrhea jokes. Yeah, there's written by women. So it's an interesting mother character, yes, a nuanced mother character. It's yeah, it's it's and good guys too. Yeah, there's I think as well as some shitty guys. We have everything. Really, it's like whole spectrum on this convert the spectrum of humanity. No, it's it's really great, and um, thank you for thank you for having me. You can follow the Bechtel Cast in all the usual places were on Instagram and Twitter at bechtel Cast, where on Facebook you can go to our website. Bytel cast dot com, you can go to our t pup look Psychet all the cool merch at t public dot com, slash v back dol cast, and if you're feeling crazy, we've actually referenced a bonus episode coming out on our patreon ak Matreon several times in this episode. We have a few October e episodes coming out, including Teeth, So go over to patreon dot com slash backtel Cast to sign up for that five bucks a month to extra episodes. You bet you. Also, we have a few live shows coming up. Details at the time of this recording are yet to be confirmed, but we know that we will be in New York and Philly at the beginning of November, and we have we'll be back in l A as well. We'll be back in l A for a live show here at the Ruby also in November, so we'll be tweeting about it. We'll be posting about it on our website backtelcast dot com under the live appearances tab. Will have more details as they come in, so check us out live, baby, We love you, we'll talk to you soon. Goddamnit, damn it. Let's go burn a Jim down, all right, let's do it. Okay, Bye bye,