Teaching nuclear physics using data rather than models, recovering helium from party balloons

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Hello and welcome to the physics world weekly

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podcast.

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I'm Hamish Johnston,

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Coming up in this episode, I'm in conversation

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with Dale Keeping, who is helium recovery manager

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at the Uk's Isis,

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Neutron and

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Source.

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He explains how Helium is used at the

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facility,

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where the gas comes from.

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And how he and his colleagues manage this

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non renewable resource.

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Dale also chats about an outreach initiative. That

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involves collecting used party balloons so that the

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helium they contain can be reused at Isis.

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Blood first, physics world's mat team

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Is in

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conversation with David Jenkins.

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Who has written a series of textbooks

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that take a different approach to teaching nuclear

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physics.

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Focusing first on how the data lead to

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physical models,

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rather than beginning with models and theories.

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Hello, and I'm delighted to be joined by

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David Jenkins, a nuclear physicist at University of

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York. Welcome to the podcast, David. Thank you.

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I'm happy to be you. Now remember, we

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let years ago at an Institute of Physics

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awards dinner, and I remember you wrote a

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feature for us about nuclear physics and its

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role on life on Earth.

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But since then you've written a couple of

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ebooks for Io about nuclear physics, and it's

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given you some insights into how we should

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teach. The subject

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to students.

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But before we come to that, I thought

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we'd just start with some the basics.

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So what what are the are the big

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questions in nuclear physics right now for people

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who haven't been keeping an eye on things?

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Well, III think there's many. I mean, there's

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lots of very technical.

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Issues. But I think the issues are are

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most interesting,

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to to the wider public. Or about the

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origin of the chemical elements

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And

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nuclear physics is is really

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underpins

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what elements are produced and the import abundant

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is in our in our universe, and that's

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got very exciting

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in the last few years because,

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from the discovery of gravitational waves, and then

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this light being emitted when when these objects

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are colliding id, it's rein,

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the whole field of nuclear physics is a

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huge number of questions now about.

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The origin of the elements.

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And that that kinda of tall with your

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own particular research interests that I think. Is

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that right in saying that? Yeah. So I've

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I've I've worked a lot on, they say

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everything that's called nuclear astro physics that relates

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to the origin of the elements, particularly at

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the moment. I've been working on

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fusion

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in massive stars, what what what what's going

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on in in stars that are 8 to

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20 times more massive than our son.

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But I'm also equally interested in just the

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pure aspects of nuclear structure

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and the properties of the atomic nucleus.

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So I mean, looking back to my undergraduate

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days, I actually did a degree in chemical

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physics. I don't think there was much nuclear

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physics on the syllabus, but what typically do

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you physics students that undergraduate level learn about

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nuclear physics. How much

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is there on the curriculum?

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There can be quite quite a lot. I

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mean, it

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in our university

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here at York.

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There's quite there's quite a bit on on

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the curriculum in there even for the... For

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the core program, and the part of the

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physics. I you can take options and study,

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even in into your third or 4 year

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of your degree. But at least in the,

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second year of the degree, there's a there's

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a lot of,

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sang to deal with nuclear physics

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probably as much as we discuss particle called

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Physics exceptionally. Yeah but that might be because

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we've got a lot of near nuclear physicists

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year.

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And and lots not so many particles ones.

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So, I thought we've turned to the new

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books that you've been writing. You wanna say

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a little bit about them. Yes. So this

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is working with Io publishing

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for their physics books series.

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We proposed a a series of books on

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nuclear structure

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and nuclear spectroscopy,

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and And

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that's been a very, very interesting

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evolution actually because of also because of events

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because we we signed up to

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I'm gonna deliver some of these books just

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before the Covid

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struck. And then when the Covid arrived,

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it we we suddenly had huge amounts of

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time to play with to and actually, in

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a way it was very therapeutic

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because we're able to spend all this time

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thinking about writing,

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and thinking about how to approach writing the

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books.

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And, of course,

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the Covid also drew it into another perspective

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because libraries were closed, You know, you couldn't

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go and get a physical book.

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You you weren't sure perhaps of that time.

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You you'd go to a library ever again.

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And so he really opened up the possibilities

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of what. Could be done with electronic,

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major and electronic rocks for. Because of course

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these are, ebooks published fines to your physics,

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publishing

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so, I mean, who who who would they

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be aimed at? Are they mostly aimed at

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undergraduate or post grad students?

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Yeah. I think they would probably be aimed

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at. To the the final year undergraduate students,

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but mostly,

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postgraduate students doing ph d or or masters

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in in in nuclear physics.

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So that's the sort of target audience

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that we have

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And and you... You told me you've kind

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of taken a different approach to other nuclear

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physics textbook. I mean, what's?

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What approach have you taken and how how

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does it differ? Would you say? Yeah. I

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think this is quite interesting because as I

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said, we we spent quite a bit of

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time thinking about how to approach. This. So

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I I work with my my main collaborator

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on these books. Is called John Wood, and

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he's a retired professor at Georgia

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tech in in the Us and he has,

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you know, an enormous number of years of

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experience of teaching, and I I've talked for

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a lot of years now,

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And, of course, you you start getting interested

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in

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in Pe.

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How how to teach

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how how to convey

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ideas to students,

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how how to challenge them how to make

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them involved and interested

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in in learning and

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And as I say, that that that led

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us into thinking about how to use books

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and so on. So I mean, historically, if

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you go back and look at nuclear physics

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text books.

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They tend to start with models,

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and they often tend to start in a

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rather kind of

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should 1 say biblical kind of way like

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a biblical authority, you know, here was the

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the model of of the shell model

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which is historical model going back to the

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the, sort of early 19 fifties.

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And

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there's nothing wrong with these models, but

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it it it's kind of

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so us of very old fashioned way of

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of of teaching the subject,

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and that it can be dry

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and boring.

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And and sometimes these models

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have become less useful as people have got

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more data and looked at these models. They

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found that there's... Problems with these models, and

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that the the the data doesn't really fit

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the models.

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And then sometimes people have come along and

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added a few more parameters of models and

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know because you know from your your involvement

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science, you can keep adding parameters to models

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and fit anything, but then it cease to

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be,

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physics.

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So we're trying to turn the whole thing

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around and start with data

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in our approach rather than,

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with models

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So when you say data, what you mean

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data that people have got from physics experiments?

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And what do you present real data or

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you sort of look at the kind of

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typical data that 1 would get?

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Yes. So so there's there's an enormous,

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comp,

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and databases of data.

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Out there nuclear data. So that's all sorts

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of properties of nuclei light. Let's take, for

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example, their gross properties. So let the the

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massive nuclei.

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Their radius.

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These are gross properties that people have measured.

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We also have excited states of nuclei.

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The nucleus is a quantum system, so it

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has quantized the excited states of specific,

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energy. There are also

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transitions between

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nuclear excited states.

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And because of the energy regime that it's

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in, those transitions media by gamma rays, which

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are very high energy,

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form of

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electromagnetic

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radiation light.

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So we have all of those databases there

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and because, of course,

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the nucleus is exploited in various ways like,

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for nuclear energy

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and for medicine and things like that, it's

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very important that people have compiled all this

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data over the years So there's a huge

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amount of data there,

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that that can be touched and then used

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more more around

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learning from.

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So do you think that makes the subject

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more accessible it becomes more real and and

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less dry as you say because people can

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see

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real date and kind of

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kind of intrigued by it and what that

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might tell us. Yes. I think that's what

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we tried to do. We tried to say,

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let's look at the data.

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And let's see if simple patterns emerge from

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the data and let's not start with traditional

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models like this shell model, which has the

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a concept that there are certain magic numbers

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of protons and neutrons

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for which the system

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has closed shells. It's called a bit like

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closed shells in a in an atom. So

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in an atom, you have the,

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you're you have chemical

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chemistry background. So we have these things noble

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gases that have no chemistry

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because they have closed shells of electrons, and

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we have certain nuclei that have closed shells

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approach tolls and neutrons and they're quite hard

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to excite. That's the the the classic

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picture of them.

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But rather site we're model, 1 can start

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looking at all this abundance of data and

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actually see naturally how

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these features emerge from looking the data.

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And then we looked at various aspects of

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nuclei. So and nucleus has typically,

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a hundred or maybe 200 protons and neutrons

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making it up. And the nucleus is fascinating

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00:10:45,770 --> 00:10:48,403
because many aspects of it are dictated by

278
00:10:48,403 --> 00:10:50,651
the behavior of just 1 of those protons

279
00:10:50,651 --> 00:10:51,368
and neutrons.

280
00:10:52,405 --> 00:10:54,638
And many of the other aspects are dictated

281
00:10:54,638 --> 00:10:57,589
by those hundreds of particles all acting together,

282
00:10:57,908 --> 00:10:58,945
so called collected,

283
00:10:59,756 --> 00:11:02,720
behavior in nuclei, what 1

284
00:11:03,810 --> 00:11:06,615
way that scene is, the the nucleus can

285
00:11:06,672 --> 00:11:09,322
rotate and you can see patterns of rotational

286
00:11:09,322 --> 00:11:12,539
states in nuclei. As you see patterns of

287
00:11:12,598 --> 00:11:15,415
rotational states in molecules in in in chemistry,

288
00:11:15,969 --> 00:11:18,366
That's that's the analogy. And 1 can look

289
00:11:18,366 --> 00:11:21,002
at all this data and see these simple

290
00:11:21,002 --> 00:11:22,041
patterns emerging.

291
00:11:23,013 --> 00:11:24,997
And then we we kind of have chapters

292
00:11:24,997 --> 00:11:26,822
which ask questions, you know, how does the

293
00:11:26,822 --> 00:11:27,139
model...

294
00:11:27,854 --> 00:11:30,552
How does the data support models like rotation?

295
00:11:31,599 --> 00:11:34,087
So rather than starting with a a biblical

296
00:11:34,303 --> 00:11:36,315
authority of a model, we'll let the

297
00:11:36,769 --> 00:11:39,330
the the the data speak. If you like.

298
00:11:40,365 --> 00:11:41,263
And did you

299
00:11:41,719 --> 00:11:43,231
test this with people? Or have you had

300
00:11:43,231 --> 00:11:45,859
any feedback whether that approach is successful and

301
00:11:45,859 --> 00:11:48,105
is what people feel is the right way

302
00:11:48,105 --> 00:11:50,998
to learn. We've had some very nice feedback

303
00:11:51,216 --> 00:11:53,848
from from students and from people around the

304
00:11:53,848 --> 00:11:56,183
world. I mean, it's been interesting. I've had

305
00:11:56,894 --> 00:12:00,029
messages from many different countries, South Africa,

306
00:12:00,886 --> 00:12:01,386
Columbia,

307
00:12:02,163 --> 00:12:04,159
it's clear that people are are using these

308
00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:06,096
books all over the world, which is very

309
00:12:07,287 --> 00:12:07,766
pleasing.

310
00:12:09,044 --> 00:12:09,544
And

311
00:12:10,161 --> 00:12:12,237
I think it's also clear that they've engaged

312
00:12:12,237 --> 00:12:13,456
well with the material

313
00:12:14,233 --> 00:12:15,430
and understood it,

314
00:12:16,163 --> 00:12:18,548
Of course, they've often spotted mistakes, but that's

315
00:12:18,548 --> 00:12:20,535
slide that they then say, why does they

316
00:12:20,535 --> 00:12:22,681
say 82 when it should be 28?

317
00:12:23,238 --> 00:12:25,797
Somebody's type something the wrong way around. But

318
00:12:25,797 --> 00:12:26,297
they've

319
00:12:27,227 --> 00:12:29,452
they've engaged with it, and and they they've

320
00:12:29,452 --> 00:12:31,677
they've found that approach to be useful. I

321
00:12:31,677 --> 00:12:34,061
think that's the feedback, which we're getting.

322
00:12:34,875 --> 00:12:36,714
And I think be the other aspect of

323
00:12:36,714 --> 00:12:38,394
it is that the way that we present

324
00:12:38,394 --> 00:12:39,134
the thing

325
00:12:40,315 --> 00:12:42,929
is very close to research because

326
00:12:43,605 --> 00:12:45,831
we we have exercises in the book. And

327
00:12:45,831 --> 00:12:47,976
we say, well, we looked at this example

328
00:12:47,976 --> 00:12:50,361
in this particular region of the nuclear chart.

329
00:12:50,853 --> 00:12:51,752
This particular

330
00:12:52,128 --> 00:12:54,758
combination of protons and neutrons. Why not have

331
00:12:54,758 --> 00:12:56,591
a look at this region of the nuclear

332
00:12:56,591 --> 00:12:59,636
chart and see what there, go and retrieve

333
00:12:59,636 --> 00:13:01,632
the data and whatever. So we... We're setting

334
00:13:01,632 --> 00:13:03,888
these open ended exercises is that

335
00:13:04,666 --> 00:13:07,300
in a sense, actually generate research questions.

336
00:13:07,952 --> 00:13:10,341
You know, it could turn into AAA 30

337
00:13:10,341 --> 00:13:12,274
year research program to

338
00:13:12,809 --> 00:13:15,038
get the data to to answer that. But

339
00:13:15,197 --> 00:13:15,730
I think

340
00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:18,570
Again, for my experience of teaching, I think

341
00:13:18,570 --> 00:13:21,070
it's it's very useful to show students

342
00:13:22,649 --> 00:13:25,862
where the textbook ends where where research starts,

343
00:13:26,021 --> 00:13:28,168
and I think it's often very difficult for

344
00:13:28,168 --> 00:13:30,020
early career researchers to

345
00:13:30,395 --> 00:13:32,860
make that transition or make that jump ask

346
00:13:32,860 --> 00:13:33,655
those questions.

347
00:13:34,132 --> 00:13:35,428
So we're trying just

348
00:13:36,137 --> 00:13:38,153
to find a way to sort of facilitate

349
00:13:38,291 --> 00:13:39,327
that the half ounce.

350
00:13:40,524 --> 00:13:41,799
So if I was a student, you know,

351
00:13:41,959 --> 00:13:44,032
starting off my Phd into nuclear physics, we

352
00:13:44,032 --> 00:13:46,197
know what would be the The big questions

353
00:13:46,197 --> 00:13:48,107
that, you know, you'd encourage me to go

354
00:13:48,107 --> 00:13:49,618
into what would you go into if you

355
00:13:49,618 --> 00:13:51,209
were spying out again, David.

356
00:13:52,179 --> 00:13:54,251
If I was starting out again, I I

357
00:13:54,251 --> 00:13:56,005
wonder if I would do n nucleus physics

358
00:13:56,005 --> 00:13:58,477
6, I do... I might do something different,

359
00:13:58,556 --> 00:13:59,535
but I think

360
00:14:00,882 --> 00:14:02,630
just because I've done it for so many

361
00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:04,536
years, like, you gotta start thinking well, You

362
00:14:04,536 --> 00:14:06,125
know, if I was start they go, I'd

363
00:14:06,125 --> 00:14:08,428
love to know about some other things not

364
00:14:08,428 --> 00:14:10,096
that I find what I'm doing boring.

365
00:14:10,748 --> 00:14:12,980
Because there were so many open questions in

366
00:14:12,980 --> 00:14:14,596
the field and there are so many

367
00:14:15,371 --> 00:14:15,871
important

368
00:14:16,248 --> 00:14:18,973
applications to other fields like fundamental physics and

369
00:14:18,973 --> 00:14:21,306
astro physics and the course all the societal

370
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,029
applications to energy and Medicine to to to

371
00:14:25,029 --> 00:14:26,039
name but a few

372
00:14:26,798 --> 00:14:29,053
But I think I would encourage young people

373
00:14:29,830 --> 00:14:31,905
starting it off in that in the field,

374
00:14:32,783 --> 00:14:35,112
and I'm biased here, but because the the

375
00:14:35,112 --> 00:14:37,026
clue what we've been discussing. But, you know,

376
00:14:37,345 --> 00:14:38,323
I I would

377
00:14:39,577 --> 00:14:42,709
I would encourage them to to challenge authority

378
00:14:42,847 --> 00:14:45,334
around these sorts of things. You know, that

379
00:14:45,334 --> 00:14:47,568
not sort of entered for thinking, you know,

380
00:14:49,083 --> 00:14:52,034
everything's like lay down, all of the foundations

381
00:14:52,034 --> 00:14:54,280
are there the walls of this this structure

382
00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:55,871
this of this topic.

383
00:14:56,587 --> 00:14:59,314
I think I would encourage people to be

384
00:15:00,737 --> 00:15:03,593
more more questioning to to start with the

385
00:15:03,593 --> 00:15:06,370
data. And I think there were other fantastic

386
00:15:06,370 --> 00:15:08,592
things that people could do, and, you know,

387
00:15:09,244 --> 00:15:10,144
I'm a dinosaur

388
00:15:10,842 --> 00:15:12,601
in this sort of thing. But I think

389
00:15:12,601 --> 00:15:14,220
there's a lot that could be done

390
00:15:14,918 --> 00:15:18,115
with techniques like machine learning and so on.

391
00:15:18,689 --> 00:15:21,422
To to look at the data that's available

392
00:15:21,959 --> 00:15:24,193
and let people find patterns in it for

393
00:15:24,193 --> 00:15:24,512
themselves.

394
00:15:25,309 --> 00:15:27,144
Because, you know, I think it's always a

395
00:15:27,144 --> 00:15:29,870
very interesting question in science and physics, you

396
00:15:29,870 --> 00:15:31,884
know, we come to some

397
00:15:32,341 --> 00:15:33,718
understanding the or some model

398
00:15:34,174 --> 00:15:36,326
based on our starting point and the data,

399
00:15:37,059 --> 00:15:39,059
But we're biased. Everything thing we do is

400
00:15:39,059 --> 00:15:41,059
biased and, you know, we have ours and

401
00:15:41,059 --> 00:15:43,299
how we how we decide to do measurements,

402
00:15:43,459 --> 00:15:44,659
how we decide to do things.

403
00:15:45,553 --> 00:15:48,206
May throwing, you know, these more modern

404
00:15:48,903 --> 00:15:52,013
computer techniques that this enormously rich datasets sets

405
00:15:52,013 --> 00:15:55,536
with thousands of data points, you might draw

406
00:15:55,536 --> 00:15:56,673
out a whole different

407
00:15:57,446 --> 00:16:00,072
pattern and things and and it might show

408
00:16:00,072 --> 00:16:01,982
AAA deeper understanding.

409
00:16:03,753 --> 00:16:05,670
Then, you know, what models are there. So

410
00:16:05,830 --> 00:16:07,828
I I just encourage young people always to

411
00:16:07,828 --> 00:16:08,227
question,

412
00:16:09,266 --> 00:16:11,518
but for tip. Maybe that's the long thing

413
00:16:11,518 --> 00:16:13,595
to say, but, you know, that's my feeling

414
00:16:13,595 --> 00:16:15,752
with. I mean, do you ever suffer David

415
00:16:15,752 --> 00:16:18,401
in in physics of kind of people going

416
00:16:18,401 --> 00:16:20,315
into particle physics? That's the sort of sexy

417
00:16:20,315 --> 00:16:20,634
area,

418
00:16:21,193 --> 00:16:23,585
dare I say that and people maybe, you

419
00:16:23,585 --> 00:16:25,739
know, sw you a bit and go and

420
00:16:25,739 --> 00:16:27,095
do they always think of you going into

421
00:16:27,095 --> 00:16:28,866
that feel first of all, you have a

422
00:16:28,866 --> 00:16:30,622
competition with the particle physicists?

423
00:16:31,261 --> 00:16:32,937
They they can be, of course, that sort

424
00:16:32,937 --> 00:16:35,811
of healthy competition between those fields. But I

425
00:16:35,811 --> 00:16:35,890
mean,

426
00:16:37,103 --> 00:16:39,736
they could be quite they are quite different

427
00:16:39,736 --> 00:16:42,928
fields I would say. I mean, particle physics

428
00:16:42,928 --> 00:16:44,500
is... It can be quite

429
00:16:45,097 --> 00:16:47,169
reduction is. You can reduce it down to

430
00:16:47,169 --> 00:16:49,559
sort of finding particles and things like that.

431
00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:53,003
And I think historically a lot people move

432
00:16:53,003 --> 00:16:56,217
from physics 2 particle physics as that field

433
00:16:56,595 --> 00:16:58,591
took off in the fifties and sixties and

434
00:16:58,591 --> 00:16:58,990
so on.

435
00:16:59,709 --> 00:17:01,305
And I think in many ways,

436
00:17:04,350 --> 00:17:06,741
what happened was that nuclear physics turned out

437
00:17:06,741 --> 00:17:07,936
to be too hard.

438
00:17:08,813 --> 00:17:10,899
I know about Don't mean that in a

439
00:17:10,899 --> 00:17:13,687
sort of p way that particle physics is

440
00:17:13,687 --> 00:17:16,156
easy, But I mean that it's hard in

441
00:17:16,156 --> 00:17:18,387
the sense that the the object you're looking

442
00:17:18,387 --> 00:17:18,887
at

443
00:17:19,277 --> 00:17:22,395
is very complicated. It involves hundreds of particles

444
00:17:22,529 --> 00:17:23,029
acting

445
00:17:23,958 --> 00:17:26,655
together. We don't have an overall model as

446
00:17:26,655 --> 00:17:28,653
the nuclear where we would love to help

447
00:17:28,653 --> 00:17:30,239
on various different models,

448
00:17:30,794 --> 00:17:33,673
treating this different aspects of its behavior. But

449
00:17:33,966 --> 00:17:35,021
it's extremely

450
00:17:35,730 --> 00:17:37,350
challenging both to theory

451
00:17:38,529 --> 00:17:40,869
and to experiment. And so that's why

452
00:17:41,809 --> 00:17:44,105
countries are still investing so much in in

453
00:17:44,303 --> 00:17:46,128
facilities to to study that. And, you know,

454
00:17:46,366 --> 00:17:48,112
I think when I when I talk to

455
00:17:48,271 --> 00:17:50,175
Students, I I do make that point, you

456
00:17:50,175 --> 00:17:52,263
know, I think it's important to justify

457
00:17:53,048 --> 00:17:55,376
at the outset. Why is still studying

458
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:57,896
a field which has bingo over for 100

459
00:17:57,896 --> 00:17:58,214
years.

460
00:17:58,770 --> 00:18:00,122
Not that is it that that is a

461
00:18:00,122 --> 00:18:01,893
good... You know, it goes back to River

462
00:18:03,239 --> 00:18:05,468
initial theory that there was a nucleus of

463
00:18:05,468 --> 00:18:07,617
an anatomy It's about 19 11 I.

464
00:18:08,732 --> 00:18:10,220
And you after then ask you know, after

465
00:18:10,419 --> 00:18:12,416
hundred years don't, you know everything you you

466
00:18:12,416 --> 00:18:14,493
want to know. And, of course, we do

467
00:18:14,493 --> 00:18:16,091
know lots of things. But I think there's

468
00:18:16,091 --> 00:18:18,744
a lot more so, we still don't know.

469
00:18:19,464 --> 00:18:22,265
What's your favorite nucleus dare I ask? Do

470
00:18:22,265 --> 00:18:23,085
you want favorite?

471
00:18:24,265 --> 00:18:26,424
Do you don't want this a favor 1?

472
00:18:27,713 --> 00:18:27,872
Well,

473
00:18:29,383 --> 00:18:30,679
there's a there's a funny

474
00:18:31,054 --> 00:18:33,542
funny story with with nuclei because

475
00:18:34,253 --> 00:18:34,971
you always say,

476
00:18:36,887 --> 00:18:39,441
study nuclei that have an even number of

477
00:18:39,441 --> 00:18:42,075
protons and an even number of neutrons because

478
00:18:42,075 --> 00:18:44,809
there's structure and their properties is is simple.

479
00:18:45,529 --> 00:18:47,130
And if you study ones that have an

480
00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:48,970
odd number of protons and a odd number

481
00:18:48,970 --> 00:18:51,954
of neutrons, Their structure is extremely complicated.

482
00:18:52,566 --> 00:18:54,791
So that's the kind of general rule, but

483
00:18:54,791 --> 00:18:57,255
that there are some special ones that are

484
00:18:57,255 --> 00:18:58,819
so called n equals zed

485
00:18:59,178 --> 00:19:01,724
nuclei have the same number of protons and

486
00:19:01,724 --> 00:19:02,043
neutrons.

487
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,988
And in those systems, even the odd adult

488
00:19:04,988 --> 00:19:06,283
nuclei have a beautiful

489
00:19:07,151 --> 00:19:10,094
simple symmetry that you can look at and

490
00:19:10,094 --> 00:19:10,594
grasp

491
00:19:10,969 --> 00:19:12,719
and get something nice out of it. So

492
00:19:12,799 --> 00:19:14,089
III

493
00:19:14,089 --> 00:19:16,409
studied some years ago, 1 of these odd,

494
00:19:17,049 --> 00:19:19,690
n equals that nuclear was bromine 70. So

495
00:19:19,849 --> 00:19:21,804
I think that would be my favorite. 1

496
00:19:22,583 --> 00:19:24,341
you thought people were said to you your

497
00:19:24,341 --> 00:19:25,779
math to study this, it would be very

498
00:19:25,779 --> 00:19:26,898
complicated breaks it's talk.

499
00:19:27,857 --> 00:19:29,935
For various reasons of cemetery so.

500
00:19:30,746 --> 00:19:32,734
Absolutely nice. Yeah. I'll all that 1. Go

501
00:19:32,734 --> 00:19:34,722
through that 1 there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And

502
00:19:34,722 --> 00:19:36,869
thanks, David. Before we go... I'm. Haven't actually

503
00:19:36,869 --> 00:19:37,903
asked you what the name the book were.

504
00:19:38,221 --> 00:19:40,623
Book were you've written. You want to name

505
00:19:40,623 --> 00:19:43,965
check them? Yes. So the... There is actually

506
00:19:43,965 --> 00:19:46,591
gonna be free books in the end. The

507
00:19:46,591 --> 00:19:48,279
only 2 of them are published so far.

508
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,200
And the other 1 is in sort of

509
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:50,700
final

510
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,220
stages of the preparation. So the first book

511
00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,700
is called nuclear data, a primer

512
00:19:57,253 --> 00:19:59,646
and that 1 focuses on things like these

513
00:19:59,646 --> 00:20:02,677
gross properties, mass and radius, of the nucleus

514
00:20:02,677 --> 00:20:03,735
and some simple

515
00:20:04,112 --> 00:20:06,106
aspects of the structure of the nucleus.

516
00:20:06,839 --> 00:20:09,393
Then the second book is called nuclear data,

517
00:20:09,553 --> 00:20:12,745
a collective motion view. So that focuses is

518
00:20:12,745 --> 00:20:15,060
on collected properties of nuclei,

519
00:20:15,712 --> 00:20:16,212
particularly

520
00:20:16,827 --> 00:20:19,694
rotation of nuclei and vibration of nuclei.

521
00:20:20,252 --> 00:20:22,322
And the final 1 that John and I

522
00:20:22,322 --> 00:20:23,857
just completely at the moment

523
00:20:24,168 --> 00:20:27,977
is called nuclear data, an independent particle called

524
00:20:27,977 --> 00:20:30,460
motion view. So that's looking at the other

525
00:20:30,516 --> 00:20:31,016
extreme

526
00:20:31,564 --> 00:20:34,118
where all the properties of this nucleus are

527
00:20:34,118 --> 00:20:36,513
dictated by just 1 of the protons or

528
00:20:36,513 --> 00:20:38,668
neutrons that makes it up. So we've got

529
00:20:38,668 --> 00:20:40,046
a sort of general book

530
00:20:40,837 --> 00:20:44,289
1 our collective behavior at 1 about, an

531
00:20:44,427 --> 00:20:45,862
independent particle behavior.

532
00:20:46,341 --> 00:20:48,335
And I think we're we kinda love to

533
00:20:48,335 --> 00:20:50,111
write more, but we probably.

534
00:20:51,613 --> 00:20:54,154
Enough for now. Said 2 the intelligence books.

535
00:20:54,868 --> 00:20:56,615
Lovely, David. Before we go, 1 last question

536
00:20:56,694 --> 00:20:58,679
I was thinking, nuclear physics in in sort

537
00:20:58,679 --> 00:21:01,000
of the public mind, they associate that with

538
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,704
nuclear weapons. And the Oppenheimer film, did you

539
00:21:03,704 --> 00:21:04,977
watch it? Did what did you make of

540
00:21:04,977 --> 00:21:05,136
it?

541
00:21:05,932 --> 00:21:07,940
Alright. I thought that film is very good.

542
00:21:08,180 --> 00:21:10,116
Yeah. I... Because I I'd I

543
00:21:10,573 --> 00:21:12,727
I, you know, I I often get worried,

544
00:21:12,887 --> 00:21:14,578
but when I see the films a very

545
00:21:14,578 --> 00:21:14,897
long.

546
00:21:15,695 --> 00:21:17,931
3 hours. It was 3 hours wasn't it.

547
00:21:18,090 --> 00:21:18,889
And I found...

548
00:21:19,767 --> 00:21:21,284
I think I watched that film when I

549
00:21:21,284 --> 00:21:22,901
watched the June 2 film,

550
00:21:23,772 --> 00:21:26,157
and both those films were very long, but

551
00:21:26,157 --> 00:21:27,350
then they came to the end that I

552
00:21:27,350 --> 00:21:28,940
didn't notice that they were long. Now, it's

553
00:21:28,940 --> 00:21:30,530
kinda like, 3 hours went by. I said,

554
00:21:30,689 --> 00:21:32,200
in my mind, that's a good film. My

555
00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:34,384
I bought it. I thought he was very

556
00:21:34,838 --> 00:21:36,826
well done. It was very well active Wasn't

557
00:21:36,826 --> 00:21:39,131
it. And Killing and Murphy was... I fought

558
00:21:39,131 --> 00:21:39,631
very

559
00:21:40,085 --> 00:21:41,754
very, very good as open oppenheimer, but and

560
00:21:41,834 --> 00:21:43,382
I think it at the

561
00:21:44,075 --> 00:21:46,062
the sense of the time and how those

562
00:21:46,062 --> 00:21:48,073
people work. And it felt kind of

563
00:21:48,526 --> 00:21:50,037
it could felt kind of real to me.

564
00:21:50,196 --> 00:21:52,527
I I could see those scientists like,

565
00:21:53,246 --> 00:21:55,084
who are acted as there's sort of real

566
00:21:55,084 --> 00:21:56,362
peak, and I don't know what you felt.

567
00:21:56,522 --> 00:21:57,960
But IIII

568
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,449
like to. Yeah. III only looked to my

569
00:22:00,449 --> 00:22:02,204
watch once during the film, which I think

570
00:22:02,204 --> 00:22:03,640
is a really good sign and, you know,

571
00:22:03,799 --> 00:22:05,236
often I get quite bored with films.

572
00:22:05,887 --> 00:22:08,029
And that 1, I didn't. There was only

573
00:22:08,029 --> 00:22:09,377
once I looked at my watch. And, yeah,

574
00:22:09,457 --> 00:22:11,440
it was 3 hours. It was quite remarkable.

575
00:22:11,836 --> 00:22:11,995
Yeah.

576
00:22:12,884 --> 00:22:14,403
Did it lead to a ups surge of

577
00:22:14,403 --> 00:22:16,880
interest in physics or not had any impact

578
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,558
you think? Would do people not make the

579
00:22:18,558 --> 00:22:20,476
link between bombs and the kind of research

580
00:22:20,476 --> 00:22:20,876
you're doing?

581
00:22:22,882 --> 00:22:24,256
Well, I hope they don't make

582
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:27,887
They do negative to what. IIII

583
00:22:27,887 --> 00:22:30,111
don't know really. I only got people talking.

584
00:22:30,349 --> 00:22:32,352
I mean, it's always got the. Got got

585
00:22:32,352 --> 00:22:34,662
the, you know, and it has got people

586
00:22:34,662 --> 00:22:36,733
talking and people who asked me about it

587
00:22:36,733 --> 00:22:39,043
and things like that. But but I... I'm

588
00:22:39,043 --> 00:22:40,817
not sure it's directly affected

589
00:22:41,845 --> 00:22:44,153
students interested in, like, joining the field or

590
00:22:44,153 --> 00:22:46,621
something like that. And not not to my

591
00:22:46,621 --> 00:22:48,474
knowledge, but It'd I'd be interesting to

592
00:22:49,105 --> 00:22:51,105
to know. I mean, obviously, that that that

593
00:22:51,105 --> 00:22:52,565
film's got a lot of,

594
00:22:53,424 --> 00:22:55,605
you know, very very sad historical

595
00:22:57,439 --> 00:22:59,037
features to it. And, you know, it means,

596
00:22:59,277 --> 00:23:01,674
it's a true story It's history. I I'd

597
00:23:01,674 --> 00:23:02,973
be interesting to know,

598
00:23:03,832 --> 00:23:06,444
how it's changed people's views of that about

599
00:23:06,564 --> 00:23:08,240
the area of science.

600
00:23:09,198 --> 00:23:11,113
Alright. Well, I hope your books get more

601
00:23:11,113 --> 00:23:12,549
students into the field. So thanks so much,

602
00:23:12,709 --> 00:23:14,359
David would been brilliant to talk to you

603
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:15,220
and

604
00:23:15,519 --> 00:23:16,640
thanks for your time on the podcast.

605
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:17,920
Thank you very much.

606
00:23:25,762 --> 00:23:28,404
Helium is an inner gas that is relatively

607
00:23:28,619 --> 00:23:30,365
rare and earth's atmosphere.

608
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:31,476
However,

609
00:23:31,809 --> 00:23:35,008
it plays crucial roles in science and technology.

610
00:23:35,857 --> 00:23:39,112
Had, it's also used to float party balloons.

611
00:23:40,161 --> 00:23:43,526
It's an expensive commodity at a non renewable

612
00:23:43,742 --> 00:23:46,527
resource, which is why many users try to

613
00:23:46,527 --> 00:23:49,584
recover and reuse as much of the element

614
00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:50,673
as possible.

615
00:23:51,467 --> 00:23:52,817
At the Uk's Isis,

616
00:23:53,532 --> 00:23:54,350
neutron and

617
00:23:54,723 --> 00:23:54,961
source,

618
00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:58,942
That process is the responsibility of dale keeping,

619
00:23:59,656 --> 00:24:00,869
who is the facility's

620
00:24:01,242 --> 00:24:02,907
helium recovery manager.

621
00:24:03,796 --> 00:24:06,046
He joins me down the line from Har

622
00:24:06,341 --> 00:24:07,080
in Oxford.

623
00:24:07,852 --> 00:24:10,023
Hi, Dale. Welcome to the podcast.

624
00:24:10,557 --> 00:24:10,875
Hiya.

625
00:24:12,083 --> 00:24:15,103
So so, Dale, how is helium used in

626
00:24:15,103 --> 00:24:16,772
science and technology at Isis?

627
00:24:17,567 --> 00:24:19,180
We mainly helium

628
00:24:19,569 --> 00:24:21,977
to call samples down in a Cryo.

629
00:24:22,909 --> 00:24:23,647
The helium

630
00:24:24,260 --> 00:24:25,635
supplies heat exchanger,

631
00:24:26,089 --> 00:24:28,975
which is connected to the sample space

632
00:24:30,083 --> 00:24:32,656
The helium is supplied to the heat exchanger

633
00:24:32,794 --> 00:24:35,187
and then is pumped across it to cool

634
00:24:35,187 --> 00:24:36,724
the sample down via

635
00:24:37,181 --> 00:24:39,390
evaporation to 1.6 k

636
00:24:40,309 --> 00:24:43,286
Right. And so is that is that liquid

637
00:24:43,346 --> 00:24:46,382
helium that you're using then? Yeah. So we

638
00:24:46,382 --> 00:24:49,352
use liquid helium within the main bar? Of

639
00:24:49,352 --> 00:24:52,368
the price that. Yeah. You're cooling samples. Is

640
00:24:52,368 --> 00:24:54,352
that what you're cooling to to get them

641
00:24:54,352 --> 00:24:56,653
down to to a very low temperature so

642
00:24:56,653 --> 00:24:57,740
that people can make

643
00:24:58,337 --> 00:25:01,205
make measurements at low temperatures? Is that is

644
00:25:01,205 --> 00:25:04,153
that mostly what you're doing? Or are are

645
00:25:04,153 --> 00:25:07,181
you cooling magnets and and and and other

646
00:25:07,181 --> 00:25:09,830
things? Yeah. We we we do have super

647
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:10,628
conducting magnets.

648
00:25:11,107 --> 00:25:11,586
And,

649
00:25:12,944 --> 00:25:13,423
mainly,

650
00:25:13,902 --> 00:25:15,738
what we find the samples eye, it could

651
00:25:15,738 --> 00:25:18,169
be mainly a crystal or or powder

652
00:25:18,705 --> 00:25:20,618
or something like that. Yeah. We we do

653
00:25:20,618 --> 00:25:22,291
our other patients as well,

654
00:25:23,168 --> 00:25:24,864
where we use maybe Cc.

655
00:25:25,813 --> 00:25:28,680
Or which is close like refrigerators or flow

656
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,750
price stats and and things like that that

657
00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:32,741
we we can use as well. And where

658
00:25:32,741 --> 00:25:33,958
does our helium

659
00:25:34,589 --> 00:25:37,066
supply come from at the moment. I mean,

660
00:25:37,306 --> 00:25:39,543
I'm I'm guessing that you would get a

661
00:25:39,543 --> 00:25:41,994
delivery from a from a specialist

662
00:25:42,674 --> 00:25:43,893
supplier. But

663
00:25:44,352 --> 00:25:46,430
where do they get the helium from?

664
00:25:47,309 --> 00:25:47,809
Helium

665
00:25:48,268 --> 00:25:51,465
is trapped in yes crust by imp role?

666
00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:55,874
And is extracted as a product of the

667
00:25:55,874 --> 00:25:57,472
liquid natural gas industry.

668
00:25:58,591 --> 00:26:01,402
Therefore, it's only really found in a few

669
00:26:01,402 --> 00:26:04,519
places around the world. For example, the Us,

670
00:26:05,158 --> 00:26:05,558
Algeria,

671
00:26:06,037 --> 00:26:09,246
Our he supply actually comes from Qatar. I

672
00:26:09,246 --> 00:26:11,553
see. And it's... I'm I mean, I think

673
00:26:11,712 --> 00:26:14,280
I'm right in saying that it's it's created

674
00:26:14,336 --> 00:26:15,950
by the... Is it the radioactive

675
00:26:16,564 --> 00:26:16,802
decay?

676
00:26:17,611 --> 00:26:21,259
Of uranium, I think underground. Yeah. Produces the

677
00:26:21,259 --> 00:26:24,273
helium, and then it somehow gets trapped in

678
00:26:24,273 --> 00:26:24,773
with

679
00:26:25,398 --> 00:26:27,941
with the natural gas and and and sort

680
00:26:27,941 --> 00:26:28,838
of extracted

681
00:26:29,212 --> 00:26:31,857
that way. Yeah. I think it's extracted from

682
00:26:32,470 --> 00:26:33,446
fractional dis.

683
00:26:34,154 --> 00:26:35,588
I mean, I'm guessing that... You know, there's

684
00:26:35,588 --> 00:26:36,486
lots of radioactive

685
00:26:36,942 --> 00:26:39,890
decay going on in the earth, but that's

686
00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:43,497
a that's a fairly slow process. So

687
00:26:43,888 --> 00:26:46,271
it it it is in limited supply, isn't

688
00:26:46,271 --> 00:26:48,257
it? I mean, new new

689
00:26:48,733 --> 00:26:51,355
supply, areas open up. I mean, you mentioned

690
00:26:51,593 --> 00:26:53,474
Qatar, which I think is a fairly new

691
00:26:54,473 --> 00:26:57,750
producer of helium. But how secure is is

692
00:26:57,750 --> 00:27:00,627
the supply? If we don't use it responsibly?

693
00:27:00,867 --> 00:27:02,305
Will it run out eventually?

694
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,480
Yeah. So people have predicted that Helium will

695
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,539
run out in,

696
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:09,359
a few hundred years time,

697
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,000
depending on the usage levels.

698
00:27:13,527 --> 00:27:15,594
Things that, I, you know, I think do

699
00:27:15,594 --> 00:27:18,775
affect the supply are maintenance of the gas

700
00:27:18,775 --> 00:27:19,832
company's plant

701
00:27:20,286 --> 00:27:21,581
weather conflict

702
00:27:23,403 --> 00:27:25,312
you know, this is why we having a

703
00:27:25,312 --> 00:27:27,937
system in place to capture as much helium

704
00:27:27,937 --> 00:27:28,993
as we possibly.

705
00:27:29,622 --> 00:27:32,986
Cam is is crucial to ensure a continuous

706
00:27:33,042 --> 00:27:34,099
source for

707
00:27:34,633 --> 00:27:35,133
scientific

708
00:27:35,588 --> 00:27:35,986
experiments.

709
00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:38,310
And and so how do you do that?

710
00:27:38,549 --> 00:27:40,721
How do you how do you capture Helium

711
00:27:41,415 --> 00:27:44,282
at the moment? Helium itself. It's it's a

712
00:27:44,282 --> 00:27:44,782
tiny

713
00:27:45,253 --> 00:27:47,163
Adam isn't it that can sort of sneak

714
00:27:47,163 --> 00:27:48,379
out of your pipes

715
00:27:48,913 --> 00:27:51,460
very easily. How how how do you how

716
00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:53,609
do you recycle it and and capture it?

717
00:27:54,166 --> 00:27:56,747
Is 1 of 1 of our biggest challenges

718
00:27:56,804 --> 00:27:58,631
is is trying to keep all of the

719
00:27:58,631 --> 00:27:59,585
helium leak tight.

720
00:28:00,856 --> 00:28:03,579
You know, we have maybe 2 kilometers of

721
00:28:03,579 --> 00:28:06,231
pipe work and hundreds of o to,

722
00:28:06,688 --> 00:28:08,283
you know, try and keep on top of

723
00:28:08,283 --> 00:28:10,537
which can be quite a challenge

724
00:28:11,009 --> 00:28:11,650
for the team.

725
00:28:12,849 --> 00:28:14,710
But... Yeah. We we try and recycle

726
00:28:15,490 --> 00:28:17,570
all of the helium that's used out in

727
00:28:17,570 --> 00:28:18,390
the experiments

728
00:28:18,703 --> 00:28:21,826
So when the helium leaves the experiments at

729
00:28:21,883 --> 00:28:24,903
atmospheric pressure is collected via a pipeline,

730
00:28:25,459 --> 00:28:28,098
which then makes its way back to the

731
00:28:28,098 --> 00:28:31,786
helium recovery building. The helium expands into

732
00:28:32,402 --> 00:28:33,460
a very large

733
00:28:33,916 --> 00:28:37,595
collection balloon, which is 22 meters cubes in

734
00:28:37,595 --> 00:28:37,993
volume.

735
00:28:39,108 --> 00:28:42,374
The helium is then compressed up to a

736
00:28:42,374 --> 00:28:44,467
maximum of a hundred and 95 bar

737
00:28:46,460 --> 00:28:49,019
gas then makes its way through series of

738
00:28:49,019 --> 00:28:49,500
filters.

739
00:28:52,073 --> 00:28:54,401
And then it will go into a man

740
00:28:55,093 --> 00:28:56,944
depending on its purity

741
00:28:57,477 --> 00:29:00,100
would depend upon what Mc bank it will

742
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:01,647
be put in. So

743
00:29:02,099 --> 00:29:04,163
if it's less than 98 percent,

744
00:29:04,797 --> 00:29:07,019
it go into what we call as our

745
00:29:07,019 --> 00:29:07,971
sort of dirty bank.

746
00:29:09,733 --> 00:29:12,751
If it's better than 98 percent efficient, it

747
00:29:12,751 --> 00:29:14,602
will go into our clean

748
00:29:15,293 --> 00:29:15,928
sort storage.

749
00:29:16,579 --> 00:29:18,747
And then from there, when we want to

750
00:29:18,883 --> 00:29:19,383
produce

751
00:29:21,108 --> 00:29:23,674
liquid helium, we can then run

752
00:29:24,064 --> 00:29:24,883
it's gas

753
00:29:26,140 --> 00:29:26,640
through

754
00:29:27,018 --> 00:29:29,652
a line dryer, which is essentially another filter,

755
00:29:30,211 --> 00:29:32,366
and then it will make its way into,

756
00:29:33,339 --> 00:29:35,099
delete viral or cold box.

757
00:29:36,059 --> 00:29:36,559
And

758
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:39,599
first of all, it will enter a purifier

759
00:29:40,059 --> 00:29:42,549
where it will remove all of its impurities,

760
00:29:43,027 --> 00:29:45,359
and then it will go into the l

761
00:29:45,416 --> 00:29:47,726
side of things to be cooled down,

762
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:49,797
use liquid.

763
00:29:50,689 --> 00:29:53,242
And then from there, it will go into

764
00:29:53,242 --> 00:29:53,960
a very large,

765
00:29:55,955 --> 00:29:56,673
mother vessel,

766
00:29:58,123 --> 00:30:00,191
which what we have... We have a 2000

767
00:30:00,191 --> 00:30:00,691
liter

768
00:30:01,146 --> 00:30:01,646
mother.

769
00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:04,248
And then from there, we can d cam

770
00:30:04,248 --> 00:30:06,157
into smaller mobile vessels.

771
00:30:07,048 --> 00:30:08,506
And that's where we can

772
00:30:09,283 --> 00:30:11,518
take these jira out into the into the

773
00:30:11,518 --> 00:30:12,737
halls within Isis

774
00:30:13,194 --> 00:30:15,682
to be used again for experiments. So It's

775
00:30:15,682 --> 00:30:16,818
just a continuous

776
00:30:17,589 --> 00:30:18,065
cycle.

777
00:30:18,780 --> 00:30:20,527
So could can you give us an idea

778
00:30:20,527 --> 00:30:23,148
of of how much liquid helium you would

779
00:30:23,148 --> 00:30:23,648
be

780
00:30:24,278 --> 00:30:24,778
producing

781
00:30:25,156 --> 00:30:25,975
or using

782
00:30:26,512 --> 00:30:28,666
at Isis in a... I don't know in

783
00:30:28,666 --> 00:30:30,182
a week or a month? Is it a?

784
00:30:30,581 --> 00:30:32,909
Is it is it a huge amount or

785
00:30:32,989 --> 00:30:36,359
I suppose that's re relatively speaking? Yeah. So

786
00:30:36,418 --> 00:30:38,092
so when we we we tend to use

787
00:30:38,092 --> 00:30:40,006
a lot more helium when when we're in

788
00:30:40,006 --> 00:30:40,405
cycle.

789
00:30:41,459 --> 00:30:43,556
So our l fire produces

790
00:30:44,255 --> 00:30:45,613
20 liquid is an hour.

791
00:30:46,412 --> 00:30:46,912
And

792
00:30:48,824 --> 00:30:49,780
when we're in cycle,

793
00:30:50,179 --> 00:30:52,252
we we can almost guarantee that the l

794
00:30:52,252 --> 00:30:54,564
fire will be running throughout throughout the cycle.

795
00:30:54,803 --> 00:30:56,956
So it's it's it's quite a lot we

796
00:30:56,956 --> 00:30:57,410
get

797
00:30:58,088 --> 00:31:00,003
So in in cycle, does that mean when

798
00:31:00,003 --> 00:31:03,036
the when when you're producing neutrons and ons

799
00:31:03,036 --> 00:31:05,430
when people are doing experiments. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

800
00:31:06,321 --> 00:31:08,149
Okay. So so it sounds to me that,

801
00:31:08,228 --> 00:31:09,897
you know, you you you have to put

802
00:31:09,897 --> 00:31:12,599
quite a bit of effort into into keeping

803
00:31:12,599 --> 00:31:14,799
your helium in the pipes, and then

804
00:31:15,318 --> 00:31:18,667
recycling it. Are are there alternatives to to

805
00:31:18,667 --> 00:31:21,400
using helium for some cryo

806
00:31:22,017 --> 00:31:22,814
applications at Isis?

807
00:31:23,452 --> 00:31:25,719
Yeah. So So we can use

808
00:31:26,491 --> 00:31:27,945
close like refrigerators

809
00:31:28,478 --> 00:31:29,932
to to call our samples,

810
00:31:30,942 --> 00:31:33,748
such as pulse shoots. However, you know, they

811
00:31:33,748 --> 00:31:36,245
are slower to reach low temperatures,

812
00:31:37,024 --> 00:31:39,581
and they won't go below 4.5 k.

813
00:31:41,035 --> 00:31:43,434
That there is also the argument that this

814
00:31:43,434 --> 00:31:45,134
uses a lot of electricity

815
00:31:45,434 --> 00:31:48,234
as opposed to use helium that has already

816
00:31:48,234 --> 00:31:49,009
been recycled

817
00:31:49,768 --> 00:31:52,162
Oh, I see. Oh, that's interesting because I

818
00:31:52,162 --> 00:31:53,757
mean, I would have thought that, you know,

819
00:31:53,917 --> 00:31:54,816
sort of re

820
00:31:55,912 --> 00:31:58,560
helium would that that that would have a

821
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,194
certain energy cost to it. But but you're

822
00:32:01,194 --> 00:32:03,769
saying that that that is more efficient than

823
00:32:03,907 --> 00:32:04,865
than using these...

824
00:32:07,033 --> 00:32:07,990
Mechanical coolers.

825
00:32:08,628 --> 00:32:11,122
Yeah. Yeah. Because because we're we're l

826
00:32:12,537 --> 00:32:14,313
virtually all the time. Is

827
00:32:15,023 --> 00:32:17,406
it sort of offset the electrical side of

828
00:32:17,406 --> 00:32:19,789
using a Cc. And As was as I

829
00:32:19,789 --> 00:32:22,649
mentioned in the intro, Helium is also used

830
00:32:22,649 --> 00:32:25,443
in in party balloons And I think a,

831
00:32:25,522 --> 00:32:26,578
you know, a lot of

832
00:32:27,029 --> 00:32:27,529
physicists,

833
00:32:28,140 --> 00:32:30,623
particularly those who work in cryo.

834
00:32:31,964 --> 00:32:33,798
Are, you know, a a gassed guest by

835
00:32:33,798 --> 00:32:36,351
this that, you know, they they see party

836
00:32:36,351 --> 00:32:38,605
balloons as a as a as wasting

837
00:32:39,461 --> 00:32:41,557
a a finite and very valuable

838
00:32:42,345 --> 00:32:42,663
resource.

839
00:32:43,695 --> 00:32:46,315
But you're you're involved in a program to

840
00:32:46,315 --> 00:32:48,958
to try to recover some of that helium

841
00:32:49,014 --> 00:32:51,333
that's used for balloons. Can you Can you

842
00:32:51,333 --> 00:32:52,450
tell us a bit about that?

843
00:32:53,407 --> 00:32:55,422
Yeah. So so I presented

844
00:32:56,597 --> 00:32:59,389
a local school to talk about the importance

845
00:32:59,389 --> 00:33:00,527
of recycling

846
00:33:01,638 --> 00:33:04,515
tied this into how we can recycle helium

847
00:33:04,515 --> 00:33:05,154
at Isis.

848
00:33:06,432 --> 00:33:07,971
So the school children

849
00:33:08,364 --> 00:33:11,229
and now recycle their helium balloons that would

850
00:33:11,229 --> 00:33:12,980
have otherwise being discarded.

851
00:33:14,174 --> 00:33:15,868
The this this helium

852
00:33:16,895 --> 00:33:18,805
that they're recycling. And it it will be

853
00:33:18,805 --> 00:33:20,499
used in experiments.

854
00:33:20,874 --> 00:33:21,374
And,

855
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:23,443
you know, it's nice the children

856
00:33:23,833 --> 00:33:25,602
can have a direct impact

857
00:33:25,975 --> 00:33:28,275
on the science that is taking place Isis.

858
00:33:29,465 --> 00:33:31,706
I I think they should feel very proud

859
00:33:31,706 --> 00:33:32,664
that's what they're doing.

860
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:35,455
And and how does that work? Do you...

861
00:33:36,333 --> 00:33:38,189
Do do you have, like, a big balloon

862
00:33:38,406 --> 00:33:40,661
that you you sort of d can't

863
00:33:40,973 --> 00:33:43,358
the helium from the small balloons into and

864
00:33:43,358 --> 00:33:45,902
then take that big balloon back to Isis.

865
00:33:46,061 --> 00:33:48,288
Is that how it works. We're we're able

866
00:33:48,288 --> 00:33:50,116
to receive the balloons from the school.

867
00:33:52,122 --> 00:33:54,374
Get get delivered to isis. So

868
00:33:54,750 --> 00:33:57,139
we simply just take the balloons and and

869
00:33:57,139 --> 00:33:58,971
run it through a small vacuum pump.

870
00:33:59,864 --> 00:34:01,862
At low pressure, which would just go back

871
00:34:01,862 --> 00:34:04,999
to our back to our large helium balloon

872
00:34:05,298 --> 00:34:06,357
bag. So

873
00:34:06,736 --> 00:34:09,545
yeah. It's very very quick. Very easy. Do

874
00:34:09,545 --> 00:34:11,778
do you think that's that's something that could

875
00:34:11,778 --> 00:34:13,851
be done on a larger scale.

876
00:34:14,968 --> 00:34:17,121
I mean, III have no idea, you know,

877
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,471
but how how much Helium is used

878
00:34:20,248 --> 00:34:21,765
in the Uk, for example,

879
00:34:22,403 --> 00:34:25,357
you know, to to to inflate balloons. But

880
00:34:25,516 --> 00:34:27,368
I mean, could could this be something that

881
00:34:27,368 --> 00:34:29,046
could be done on a on a wider

882
00:34:29,046 --> 00:34:31,282
scale, do you think? For mine for my

883
00:34:31,282 --> 00:34:33,061
understanding. And this is sort of the first

884
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,842
this this been really done around this. So,

885
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,149
you know, it'd be great if if people

886
00:34:38,149 --> 00:34:38,786
could do that.

887
00:34:41,028 --> 00:34:42,778
Some from my understanding, there's only...

888
00:34:43,335 --> 00:34:44,869
I think there's only around 20

889
00:34:45,641 --> 00:34:46,755
helium recovery plants,

890
00:34:48,124 --> 00:34:50,441
in the in in in England. So

891
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,699
I think it would be quite a challenge

892
00:34:52,758 --> 00:34:53,258
to

893
00:34:54,436 --> 00:34:55,335
implement something

894
00:34:56,444 --> 00:34:58,512
on a big scale. So... Lily,

895
00:34:59,547 --> 00:35:01,694
Good stuff. And and finally Dale,

896
00:35:02,331 --> 00:35:06,266
you your background, your training is in auto

897
00:35:06,402 --> 00:35:06,902
mechanics

898
00:35:07,436 --> 00:35:07,936
and

899
00:35:08,471 --> 00:35:09,186
and plumbing.

900
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:10,579
Can you

901
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,480
maybe tell our listeners how you became interested

902
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:15,140
in working

903
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:17,219
at Isis? And

904
00:35:17,774 --> 00:35:19,048
you know, you know, how how you got

905
00:35:19,048 --> 00:35:20,903
this job as Helium

906
00:35:21,359 --> 00:35:21,859
recovery

907
00:35:22,634 --> 00:35:24,760
manager. Yeah. I started off as

908
00:35:25,358 --> 00:35:26,018
a vehicle

909
00:35:26,874 --> 00:35:27,773
technician where

910
00:35:29,189 --> 00:35:30,247
where I was a teenager,

911
00:35:32,301 --> 00:35:34,145
you know. Play him with things in the

912
00:35:34,145 --> 00:35:34,463
garage.

913
00:35:35,972 --> 00:35:37,322
Yeah. And then it went from there. I

914
00:35:37,322 --> 00:35:39,545
got got got qualified as a vehicle technician

915
00:35:39,545 --> 00:35:41,710
and wanting to carry on learn in, so

916
00:35:41,869 --> 00:35:43,309
I don't I done some plumbing in and

917
00:35:43,309 --> 00:35:45,949
then moved on to some gas work. Yeah.

918
00:35:46,109 --> 00:35:47,550
So we're a job that was advertised at

919
00:35:47,710 --> 00:35:48,929
Isis, and

920
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:52,588
we're gonna the cryo gen team. So so,

921
00:35:52,667 --> 00:35:53,462
yeah. I applied.

922
00:35:54,098 --> 00:35:55,450
And, yeah. I was fortunate to get it.

923
00:35:55,530 --> 00:35:58,154
So, yeah, I just always wanted to continue

924
00:35:58,154 --> 00:35:59,719
my learning and and

925
00:36:00,399 --> 00:36:00,798
you know,

926
00:36:01,518 --> 00:36:02,317
he can prove him.

927
00:36:03,915 --> 00:36:05,135
And with Cryo,

928
00:36:06,712 --> 00:36:08,550
you know, for for me every day is

929
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:09,190
a school day,

930
00:36:09,924 --> 00:36:12,102
I'll always be learning with cryo.

931
00:36:12,481 --> 00:36:12,981
So

932
00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:16,635
yeah. Really really really fascinating to me really.

933
00:36:17,449 --> 00:36:19,210
And and what sort of advice would you

934
00:36:19,210 --> 00:36:20,829
give to somebody who has,

935
00:36:21,289 --> 00:36:22,809
you know, the technical skills,

936
00:36:23,609 --> 00:36:26,010
and wants to, you know, work in a

937
00:36:26,010 --> 00:36:26,829
in a scientific

938
00:36:27,302 --> 00:36:29,290
facility like Isis. What...

939
00:36:30,244 --> 00:36:32,630
Did you have any career advice for them?

940
00:36:33,186 --> 00:36:34,776
How how should they pursue that?

941
00:36:35,509 --> 00:36:36,628
Yeah. I'd I'd just say,

942
00:36:37,827 --> 00:36:40,463
you know, just just just keep keep learning.

943
00:36:41,582 --> 00:36:43,340
I didn't know what I wanted to do.

944
00:36:43,912 --> 00:36:46,319
Until I was in in my twenties. So,

945
00:36:46,455 --> 00:36:48,442
you know, there's there's there's plenty of time

946
00:36:48,442 --> 00:36:51,780
to, you know, find find the right route

947
00:36:51,780 --> 00:36:55,062
for you. I was very hesitant about applying

948
00:36:55,062 --> 00:36:57,773
for the job because I didn't have a

949
00:36:57,773 --> 00:36:58,273
certain

950
00:36:58,810 --> 00:36:59,310
qualifications

951
00:37:00,326 --> 00:37:00,826
around,

952
00:37:01,522 --> 00:37:02,022
Cryo

953
00:37:03,293 --> 00:37:05,930
but, yeah, gave a go, and yeah, I

954
00:37:05,930 --> 00:37:08,486
was lucky enough to, be accepted. So, yeah,

955
00:37:08,646 --> 00:37:10,658
I'd just say, you know, get get give

956
00:37:10,658 --> 00:37:12,414
it a go, You know? This is something

957
00:37:12,414 --> 00:37:14,410
you're interested in, You know, but go for

958
00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:17,124
it. Well, that's great. Thanks. Thanks for talking

959
00:37:17,124 --> 00:37:20,974
about Helium Recovery dell. That's that's 1 of

960
00:37:20,974 --> 00:37:23,375
my favorite subjects, so smell problems.

961
00:37:31,541 --> 00:37:33,217
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

962
00:37:33,217 --> 00:37:36,351
for this week's podcast. Thanks to dale keeping

963
00:37:36,743 --> 00:37:38,414
David Jenkins and Mat team

964
00:37:39,210 --> 00:37:42,075
For joining me today and a special thanks

965
00:37:42,075 --> 00:37:43,826
to our producer Fred Isles.

966
00:37:44,479 --> 00:37:46,735
I hope you've been enjoying the new music

967
00:37:46,954 --> 00:37:47,853
in the podcast.

968
00:37:48,311 --> 00:37:50,487
It's called 137

969
00:37:50,546 --> 00:37:53,441
and was composed and performed by the physicist

970
00:37:53,914 --> 00:37:54,813
Philip Lori.

971
00:37:55,588 --> 00:37:58,240
He talks about the significance of that number

972
00:37:58,298 --> 00:38:01,327
and the creative process involved in making the

973
00:38:01,327 --> 00:38:01,827
music

974
00:38:02,218 --> 00:38:04,940
over on the Physics World stories podcast.

975
00:38:05,552 --> 00:38:07,377
And you can listen to that on the

976
00:38:07,536 --> 00:38:11,304
Physics World website or at your favorite podcast

977
00:38:11,518 --> 00:38:11,914
provider.

978
00:38:12,549 --> 00:38:13,739
Just look for the headline,

979
00:38:14,294 --> 00:38:17,570
swift earthquakes and new podcast music

980
00:38:18,278 --> 00:38:20,670
inspired by the fine structure constant.

981
00:38:21,706 --> 00:38:24,656
And you heard right, the podcast also looks

982
00:38:24,656 --> 00:38:26,511
at the seismic activity

983
00:38:26,984 --> 00:38:29,405
associated with Taylor Swift concerts

984
00:38:29,864 --> 00:38:30,764
with the si

985
00:38:31,704 --> 00:38:32,204
Jacqueline

986
00:38:32,824 --> 00:38:33,964
Kaplan Hour,