Bringing Childlike Wonder into the Artists Studio.

WEBVTT

00:00:10.893 --> 00:00:12.875
<v Speaker 1>Hey everybody, welcome back.

00:00:12.875 --> 00:00:18.344
<v Speaker 1>Excited about this episode, I think there should be some pretty fun stuff in the wind up.

00:00:18.344 --> 00:00:28.946
<v Speaker 1>Talking about, I know there's some elements in this specific quote that I think about often and always and that I talk to a lot of my mentees and other artists and peers about regularly.

00:00:28.946 --> 00:00:30.309
<v Speaker 1>So I think it's going to be a really fun one.

00:00:30.309 --> 00:00:35.671
<v Speaker 1>Some of you are going to really love it because you're going to love the Quoter themselves.

00:00:35.671 --> 00:00:43.606
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure there's a lot of big fans of this Quoter out there, especially if you're an avid reader or a science fiction fan as well.

00:00:43.606 --> 00:00:45.850
<v Speaker 1>So, nathan, take it away.

00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:49.003
<v Speaker 2>Thanks, ty, great to be with you.

00:00:49.003 --> 00:00:52.240
<v Speaker 2>So we're going to talk about a quote by Aldous Huxley today.

00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:57.171
<v Speaker 2>So, at the risk of butchering a biography, we're just going to do it quick and dirty.

00:00:57.171 --> 00:01:01.179
<v Speaker 2>You should know who he is and if you don't, then I guess do some homework, or don't you know?

00:01:01.179 --> 00:01:15.674
<v Speaker 2>It's your life, whatever you want to do, but well-known novelist, poet, philosopher, english born and best known for Brave New World, which you are probably required to read in school, or I should say, got the opportunity to read in school.

00:01:15.674 --> 00:01:30.388
<v Speaker 2>But the quote we're going to discuss today by Mr Huxley goes like this this secret of genius is to carry the spirit of the child into old age, which means never losing your enthusiasm.

00:01:30.388 --> 00:01:41.186
<v Speaker 2>One more time for the slow kids like me, the secret of genius is to carry the spirit of the child into old age, which means never losing your enthusiasm.

00:01:41.186 --> 00:01:44.445
<v Speaker 2>I love a lot of things about this quote and I'm excited to break it down with you.

00:01:44.486 --> 00:01:55.048
<v Speaker 2>I thought it might make sense to begin with a working definition of genius, because it's a word that gets used a lot, that I personally don't fully understand or know what it means.

00:01:55.048 --> 00:01:58.802
<v Speaker 2>I'm fairly certain it gets used out of context quite a bit.

00:01:58.802 --> 00:02:00.045
<v Speaker 2>We should get taco tonight.

00:02:00.045 --> 00:02:01.870
<v Speaker 2>Genius, is it, though?

00:02:01.870 --> 00:02:05.337
<v Speaker 2>So genius?

00:02:05.337 --> 00:02:14.492
<v Speaker 2>This is, I think, the idea, the Oxford definition exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability.

00:02:14.492 --> 00:02:24.152
<v Speaker 2>I should like the second definition a bit better a person who is exceptionally intelligent or creative, either generally or in some particular respect.

00:02:24.152 --> 00:02:29.056
<v Speaker 2>Like I said, I don't know much about genius, but I think I know a little bit about the spirit of the child.

00:02:29.056 --> 00:02:32.111
<v Speaker 2>That's something that really interests me and fascinates me a lot.

00:02:32.151 --> 00:02:38.942
<v Speaker 2>I think what resonates with me about this quote, while I wanted to talk about it today, was really just thinking about the spirit of the child.

00:02:38.942 --> 00:02:52.401
<v Speaker 2>I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is that it's really it's not about acquiring more knowledge, it's not about figuring things out or developing our intellect.

00:02:52.401 --> 00:03:07.973
<v Speaker 2>Of course, those things are important as well but when we talk about fear of the child, what I think about anyway is it's less about acquiring more and it's more about not losing what we had all along that childlike wonder, that childlike enthusiasm.

00:03:07.973 --> 00:03:13.935
<v Speaker 2>Funny how almost everything that follows childlike has a positive connotation.

00:03:13.935 --> 00:03:20.731
<v Speaker 2>So I think about that idea and, of course, how it relates to art, our making process.

00:03:20.872 --> 00:03:28.531
<v Speaker 2>I think the big question that I wanted to kind of pose around this idea is how do we protect that enthusiasm?

00:03:28.531 --> 00:03:43.844
<v Speaker 2>How do we get it back in the ways that most of us as adults have lost at times, how life or the influences of others, the programming that we've acquired along the way, has sort of beaten some of that out of us.

00:03:43.844 --> 00:03:44.646
<v Speaker 2>How do we get it back?

00:03:44.646 --> 00:03:51.250
<v Speaker 2>How do we preserve the childlike enthusiasm, the spirit of the child that maybe we've had a chance to retain?

00:03:51.250 --> 00:04:03.603
<v Speaker 2>Because I think it's important to understand and just acknowledge there's a lot of threats to our enthusiasm, there's a lot of threats to that spirit of the child, and we can maybe identify some of those if it makes sense.

00:04:03.603 --> 00:04:07.671
<v Speaker 2>But those are my opening thoughts on the subject.

00:04:07.671 --> 00:04:10.387
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean TNC.

00:04:11.209 --> 00:04:28.718
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this is let's do some separation here before we really dive deep, because it'd be really easy for us to really jump into keeping the spirit of the child in our actual life, that enjoyment of life, that raw enthusiasm for everything you do for family, for your partner, your loved ones or all those things right.

00:04:28.718 --> 00:04:40.663
<v Speaker 1>Those are important, but since we're an art podcast and we're really talking about making art and growing as an artist in studio time, let's separate that into our studio practice and into the art world.

00:04:40.663 --> 00:04:51.252
<v Speaker 1>Keeping that spirit of a child as we grow older as an artist right, as we continue on in years as an artist, how do we keep that raw enthusiasm right?

00:04:51.252 --> 00:05:09.579
<v Speaker 1>And so, when you look at the spirit of a child, absolute freedom is something that comes to mind for me, I grew up in the mountains outside, in the Sierra Nevada wilderness, outside of Lake Tahoe, where my brothers and I could run free until the hawks started leaving.

00:05:09.579 --> 00:05:10.541
<v Speaker 1>As the sun went down.

00:05:10.541 --> 00:05:16.547
<v Speaker 1>We would be running through the red dirt and out down to the river, riding our bikes for miles upon miles.

00:05:16.547 --> 00:05:19.980
<v Speaker 1>When the American River come and home, I mean, there was no.

00:05:19.980 --> 00:05:22.990
<v Speaker 1>There were no rules right.

00:05:22.990 --> 00:05:33.769
<v Speaker 1>There's nothing hindering you from riding your bike as fast as you can, from jumping off rocks in the water, I mean it's like there were no rules, nothing was inhibiting what you were doing.

00:05:33.769 --> 00:05:36.160
<v Speaker 1>So there's this absolute freedom in the spirit of a child.

00:05:36.160 --> 00:05:38.367
<v Speaker 1>But you also felt safe.

00:05:38.367 --> 00:05:41.920
<v Speaker 1>As you grow older, you start to feel this, that safety is an illusion.

00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:47.778
<v Speaker 1>You start to worry or have pressures of I could lose this, this could happen.

00:05:47.778 --> 00:05:51.992
<v Speaker 1>As you get older, you start thinking more about when is the end coming?

00:05:51.992 --> 00:05:58.694
<v Speaker 1>All these experiences start to heap up over time that cause your enthusiasm and that spirit to shrink.

00:05:58.694 --> 00:06:00.060
<v Speaker 1>Correlate that to the art world.

00:06:00.923 --> 00:06:01.687
<v Speaker 1>I've studied this a lot.

00:06:01.687 --> 00:06:08.639
<v Speaker 1>One of my favorite authors, madeline Langell, who wrote the Wrinkle in Time trilogy, which is one of my favorite trilogies that I read every year at least.

00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:14.293
<v Speaker 1>She talks a lot about how she says I'm not a child author.

00:06:14.293 --> 00:06:15.317
<v Speaker 1>I'm just an author.

00:06:15.317 --> 00:06:23.884
<v Speaker 1>Whoever decided that only adults can read adult novels and that there's an actual definition for a children's novel?

00:06:23.884 --> 00:06:27.519
<v Speaker 1>Why can't an adult read something that's written in different ways?

00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:41.653
<v Speaker 1>And so she says the problem is, as there's a certain age when you're not allowed to read Choose your Own Adventure Books anymore and you can't read fiction anymore, and you're not allowed to color anymore and you're not allowed to play with clay at the dinner table anymore.

00:06:41.653 --> 00:06:47.137
<v Speaker 1>Playdough is gone and now it's time to read history and it's time to study biographies.

00:06:47.137 --> 00:06:56.709
<v Speaker 1>And I'm not saying this happens to everyone, it didn't happen to me, but I know this is something that at a certain age people go time to get serious and so that enthusiasm is now washed away.

00:06:56.771 --> 00:06:58.033
<v Speaker 1>That childlike freedom.

00:06:58.033 --> 00:07:12.199
<v Speaker 1>How do we keep that in the studio, which is the most important for us as artists place to feel that freedom, to feel pressure free, no resistance from the outside world.

00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:17.437
<v Speaker 1>I can open that door and I use this term that the studio is my playground.

00:07:17.437 --> 00:07:20.541
<v Speaker 1>It's my sanctuary or my church, but it's also my playground.

00:07:20.541 --> 00:07:26.435
<v Speaker 1>When I open that door, it's like I'm a four year old sprinting in at recess.

00:07:26.435 --> 00:07:40.769
<v Speaker 1>The doors, open the classes, let out freedom, dirt, sawdust, wood chips, jungle, gym bars, slides, whatever, basketballs, soccer balls, everything's out there for you to go to work with, play with.

00:07:40.769 --> 00:07:42.668
<v Speaker 1>When I open my door to the studio.

00:07:42.668 --> 00:07:45.334
<v Speaker 1>It's not always like that, but I try.

00:07:45.334 --> 00:07:51.255
<v Speaker 1>I try so hard to have that raw enthusiasm of a child when I open that door.

00:07:51.255 --> 00:07:55.192
<v Speaker 1>It's tools, canvas, everything to play with.

00:07:55.192 --> 00:08:02.874
<v Speaker 1>Try to play and create and master that technique and complete freedom and raw enthusiasm.

00:08:02.874 --> 00:08:04.910
<v Speaker 1>That's, I don't know.

00:08:04.910 --> 00:08:05.492
<v Speaker 1>That was a lot.

00:08:05.492 --> 00:08:10.579
<v Speaker 1>I don't even know where I went or how I got there, because I have the spirit of a child.

00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:11.843
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you don't mean either.

00:08:11.843 --> 00:08:12.685
<v Speaker 2>I was just long to the ride.

00:08:12.685 --> 00:08:14.451
<v Speaker 2>You know, you were like the big kid in the neighborhood.

00:08:14.451 --> 00:08:15.629
<v Speaker 2>It's like, hey, come check out the river.

00:08:15.629 --> 00:08:16.189
<v Speaker 2>I'm like I'm in.

00:08:16.350 --> 00:08:16.632
<v Speaker 1>Let's go.

00:08:16.632 --> 00:08:19.850
<v Speaker 1>Hey mom, I'll be home for supper, it's all good.

00:08:19.850 --> 00:08:20.391
<v Speaker 1>Oh.

00:08:20.411 --> 00:08:20.833
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

00:08:20.833 --> 00:08:21.714
<v Speaker 2>Oh, that was great.

00:08:21.714 --> 00:08:33.352
<v Speaker 2>I think you know one of the things that well, you actually did take me back to my childhood as well, because we had I'm so fortunate we had just a ton of like county, I think, actually city land behind my house.

00:08:33.352 --> 00:08:35.152
<v Speaker 2>We just live in the regular neighborhood, but it was behind our house.

00:08:35.152 --> 00:08:38.393
<v Speaker 2>So that was my childhood.

00:08:38.393 --> 00:08:54.878
<v Speaker 2>As well as making my own little lean twos and going back there with whittling weapons mostly out of sticks and later on going back and writing poetry by the river, taking pictures like that was that was my sanctuary for sure, so I wanted to bring it back.

00:08:55.144 --> 00:09:01.490
<v Speaker 2>I think it'd be good for us to identify and maybe put a name to some of the threats to our enthusiasm.

00:09:01.490 --> 00:09:10.196
<v Speaker 2>I think I'll start, and then I'm interested in your input as well, because I know you've had a lot more conversations with you know other artists through your mentorship program.

00:09:10.196 --> 00:09:13.234
<v Speaker 2>So I'm just I'll speak from the first person.

00:09:13.234 --> 00:09:34.918
<v Speaker 2>For me, I think the biggest or one of the biggest threats to my enthusiasm is perfectionism, is believing the lie that I've got it, have it all figured out and that I have to sort of look like a reasonable representation of an adult, you know.

00:09:34.918 --> 00:09:47.092
<v Speaker 2>So that's a big one for me, and the and the idea that till everything is just so, that I'm not going to be okay and that the work is not going to be what I want it to be, it's not going to, you know, serve my ultimate vision.

00:09:47.092 --> 00:09:49.168
<v Speaker 2>That's the first thing that came to mind for me.

00:09:49.168 --> 00:09:54.572
<v Speaker 2>But what are some other threats to our, our childlike spirit or to our enthusiasm?

00:09:56.346 --> 00:09:56.929
<v Speaker 1>Self number one.

00:09:56.929 --> 00:10:01.025
<v Speaker 1>Right, the judge, the ultimate judge, is yourself, I think.

00:10:01.025 --> 00:10:15.154
<v Speaker 1>For me, like I said a minute ago, I try to do my best to go in with fervor and just childlike playfulness, but with the seriousness, because I think what what Aldous is saying is the secret of genius to carry the spirit of the child into old age.

00:10:15.154 --> 00:10:18.452
<v Speaker 1>Right, he's not saying to be to be a child in your old age.

00:10:18.452 --> 00:10:25.812
<v Speaker 1>He's like be a consummate professional in your field and what you're doing, but carry that spirit of a child with you along the way.

00:10:25.812 --> 00:10:36.917
<v Speaker 1>There has to be a seriousness to my practice number one, an adultness, a wisdom filled growth in my practice and that can really get in the way of that childhood spirit.

00:10:36.917 --> 00:10:41.275
<v Speaker 1>I shared this with you off off camera when we were talking about stuff earlier.

00:10:41.275 --> 00:10:53.254
<v Speaker 1>You know, I came into the studio and I've been working on new things and experimenting and leaving some things that I really liked, but we're just taking me more time than other stuff, so I kind of put them away for a minute and was playing with other stuff.

00:10:53.254 --> 00:10:57.556
<v Speaker 1>I'm constantly beating myself up, which you don't do much as a child.

00:10:57.556 --> 00:11:16.316
<v Speaker 1>We're not talking young adolescents, we're talking childhood, because as you start to grow in adolescence there are plenty of things that you can start to mentally affect you and beat yourself up, but child raw enthusiasm, no worries in the world, nothing to hinder you, nothing's happened to you yet, right or around you yet.

00:11:16.316 --> 00:11:17.509
<v Speaker 1>This is just pure freedom.

00:11:17.509 --> 00:11:28.738
<v Speaker 1>So I really wrestle with this a lot because my work is very falls into the abstract expressionist, neo expressionist, tashame other kinds of forms of expressionism as a whole.

00:11:29.304 --> 00:11:30.168
<v Speaker 1>I have friends who are critics.

00:11:30.168 --> 00:11:44.254
<v Speaker 1>I've been on panels with big museum curators in the past and that question has come up because the critic and the curator they like to throw their knowledge out there, which they're supposed to, but they also are trying to confront the artist to help them grow.

00:11:44.254 --> 00:11:49.015
<v Speaker 1>And sometimes some do it with great tact and others do it with really poor tact.

00:11:49.015 --> 00:11:55.529
<v Speaker 1>And so I had multiple say you know, your work is very, it's in the abstract expressionist realm, but abex is dead.

00:11:55.529 --> 00:11:56.514
<v Speaker 1>How do you deal with that?

00:11:56.514 --> 00:12:04.150
<v Speaker 1>And I'm on a panel and I go, oh shit, really You're going to ask me that now, in front of all these people, I have to come up with an answer.

00:12:04.150 --> 00:12:06.291
<v Speaker 1>And usually I'm like that's hard.

00:12:06.291 --> 00:12:09.734
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that's what I love, that's the scene, that's the history.

00:12:09.734 --> 00:12:16.089
<v Speaker 1>Those are the artists that I love, that I emulate, that I steal bits and pieces from to form it into me.

00:12:16.089 --> 00:12:22.028
<v Speaker 1>And man, so yeah, and so they're telling me, man, that's really, how do I move past that?

00:12:22.028 --> 00:12:31.384
<v Speaker 1>And I can really get in my head, rather than that ultimate freedom right in childhood enthusiasm, I can just keep going, keep going, keep going and work it out.

00:12:32.610 --> 00:12:36.376
<v Speaker 1>It can really become this pressure of fear and self judgment.

00:12:36.376 --> 00:12:43.513
<v Speaker 1>You're just another abstract expression, but that would out the window in nineteen, sixty two, no long that that era no longer exists.

00:12:43.513 --> 00:12:44.014
<v Speaker 1>It's over.

00:12:44.014 --> 00:12:45.917
<v Speaker 1>The new expression comes on the scene.

00:12:45.917 --> 00:12:51.884
<v Speaker 1>I fit in there, but that's dwindling down and there's still some new expressionists that are alive and growing.

00:12:51.924 --> 00:12:57.154
<v Speaker 1>But Is that period truly end in the two thousand ten?

00:12:57.154 --> 00:12:57.775
<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

00:12:57.775 --> 00:12:59.837
<v Speaker 1>Like, is there something new?

00:12:59.837 --> 00:13:01.019
<v Speaker 1>Can you still fit?

00:13:01.019 --> 00:13:01.460
<v Speaker 1>Can I?

00:13:01.460 --> 00:13:05.183
<v Speaker 1>How do you outpace or outgrow or innovate or invent?

00:13:05.183 --> 00:13:06.664
<v Speaker 1>It's so difficult to do.

00:13:06.664 --> 00:13:14.722
<v Speaker 1>But I can get in my head and I can take that freedom away really easily by going no, you're just that.

00:13:14.722 --> 00:13:34.606
<v Speaker 1>And so then it forces my work to lack freedom and pressure comes in and then I fail in pieces and I struggle through the hours and the work rather than being like a child in the playground with no worries in the world, just doing this and that in color and paint and trying and playing, experimenting, no pressure.

00:13:34.606 --> 00:13:36.695
<v Speaker 1>Then two weeks pass, you go.

00:13:36.695 --> 00:13:37.599
<v Speaker 1>I did one.

00:13:37.599 --> 00:13:40.193
<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, I did one.

00:13:40.193 --> 00:13:42.158
<v Speaker 1>That one works.

00:13:42.158 --> 00:13:43.679
<v Speaker 1>That one's incredible.

00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:44.601
<v Speaker 1>Let's put it out there.

00:13:44.601 --> 00:13:46.043
<v Speaker 1>That makes sense.

00:13:47.953 --> 00:13:48.316
<v Speaker 2>Some of it.

00:13:48.316 --> 00:13:57.576
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know what, what you just shared makes me wonder is there, is there ever a?

00:13:57.576 --> 00:14:07.082
<v Speaker 2>Is there a balance to be found between the, you know, the exploration, the freedom of a child?

00:14:07.082 --> 00:14:18.937
<v Speaker 2>Thinking about that moment, when you said that, that's it, I got one who was speaking who determined Was that child tie, was that responsible, reasonable adult tie?

00:14:18.937 --> 00:14:23.682
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a different version of you than the one who created it was viewing it.

00:14:23.701 --> 00:14:30.464
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's one of the powerful things right about giving giving you know work, space To consider and really you know, kind of wrap your head around.

00:14:30.464 --> 00:14:36.554
<v Speaker 2>But I guess that's my question is In with the example you shared, is there a balance to be found?

00:14:36.554 --> 00:14:48.889
<v Speaker 2>Or how do we find the balance of that child, like expiration, and the more rationally minded adult that you know, or the seriousness, the professionalism that is, like you said, required to determine?

00:14:48.889 --> 00:14:54.590
<v Speaker 2>Alright, is this something that I should you know, share, put out there and, you know, explore further?

00:14:56.914 --> 00:14:57.756
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a tough one.

00:14:57.756 --> 00:14:59.961
<v Speaker 1>I mean, we're always looking for the magic in our work.

00:14:59.961 --> 00:15:01.886
<v Speaker 1>That's not the whole work that's in it.

00:15:01.886 --> 00:15:09.370
<v Speaker 1>I was looking for the magic in it that we can build on for the next thing, and so I think there's a quote by Chris for more that he says children see magic because they look for it.

00:15:09.370 --> 00:15:32.596
<v Speaker 1>They see the magical things, the supernatural, the angels in the clouds, like you know, those things that when you're a child like because you're always looking for it, and I think, as an artist, I really try to put that into my practice as well as that, I'm always trying, I'm always looking and searching for the magical moments, those moments in nutrition, within the piece, like how we say but I'm always looking for it.

00:15:32.636 --> 00:15:39.488
<v Speaker 1>But it's real easy when the pressure comes in to not be looking into, just be going through motions to make, which is important we talk about all the time.

00:15:39.488 --> 00:15:40.529
<v Speaker 1>There are plenty of times when there's no magic.

00:15:40.529 --> 00:15:57.357
<v Speaker 1>You're just working, working, working, working, working, and that's when it's really hard to keep that childhood enthusiasm and I don't think I don't think what all this is saying is every single day, no matter what you do, be child like, have that bronze, because you can't.

00:15:57.357 --> 00:16:01.163
<v Speaker 1>He knows that I penned over 50 book, 50 novels.

00:16:01.163 --> 00:16:03.032
<v Speaker 1>Are you kidding me?

00:16:03.032 --> 00:16:06.139
<v Speaker 1>I mean it's like you look at a Stephen King, hundreds of novels.

00:16:06.139 --> 00:16:11.975
<v Speaker 1>There are plenty of times he's just writing, writing no enthusiasm, not excited.

00:16:12.015 --> 00:16:12.616
<v Speaker 1>Today sucks.

00:16:12.616 --> 00:16:17.605
<v Speaker 1>But he's doing it, as Anne Lamotte says, but in chair he's there and making.

00:16:17.605 --> 00:16:24.879
<v Speaker 1>But I can guarantee there are plenty of times or Stephen King is just giddy to get to work, or Huxley is just giddy to get to work and work on stuff.

00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:26.504
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, man, that's.

00:16:26.504 --> 00:16:32.830
<v Speaker 1>That's a hard one, because I try to be childlike, I try to play, but I also am very serious with my practice too.

00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:43.826
<v Speaker 1>But I think a kid is very serious about playing, very serious about getting to the river first before his brothers, very serious about making sure that Darcy Tom Muir doesn't beat me in the 400.

00:16:46.133 --> 00:16:48.956
<v Speaker 1>Running on the track because she's got juice and she can run.

00:16:48.956 --> 00:16:51.000
<v Speaker 1>That's just a shout out to my friend Darcy.

00:16:51.000 --> 00:17:04.641
<v Speaker 1>So many correlations to bring in and out, of being serious and very focused as an artist but also finding the ways to be very childlike and enthusiastic and playful, and what you do.

00:17:05.652 --> 00:17:15.459
<v Speaker 2>Well, there's, I mean there's there's enthusiasm in the, in the moment, which is fleeting, you know it's fickle, it's like inspiration, like we talked about a lot.

00:17:15.459 --> 00:17:18.585
<v Speaker 2>It's not dependable to show up on time, or at all for that matter.

00:17:18.585 --> 00:17:21.015
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but there's also enthusiasm.

00:17:21.015 --> 00:17:59.226
<v Speaker 2>Or, you know, maybe we could, just for the sake of this particular point, use the two interchangeably inspiration in the broad sense, and so, I don't know, I'm just thinking about, like, the importance of having a broad, you know, vision or purpose behind the work as a whole, understanding that you're not going to be connected to that or have that, that sense or that fire in you know, every, any given moment, you know, dependably, but if there's that sort of, you know, foundational passion or enthusiasm that's driving what you do, that's enough.

00:18:00.067 --> 00:18:06.897
<v Speaker 2>Now, without that, yes, I don't know, I'm not sure if I'm on something or not, but if it's making sense, rather.

00:18:06.897 --> 00:18:35.209
<v Speaker 2>But you know, I think that it seems to me that when I hear people talk about not having their inspiration, or, like I said, if we can just, you know, swap out enthusiasm for today's conversation, that maybe the real problem is not that they're not feeling in the moment, because we're not going to all the time, but the real core issue is not having a driving enthusiasm behind the work itself or the reason for making it in the first place.

00:18:35.209 --> 00:18:35.950
<v Speaker 2>Agree or disagree.

00:18:38.674 --> 00:18:54.477
<v Speaker 1>No, I agree, because even in the days that suck which there are quite a few, like the struggle in the studio of I didn't do anything today, even though I worked for six hours, those days suck, they're not fun.

00:18:54.477 --> 00:19:01.238
<v Speaker 1>I still walk out of the door with a smile and go I got to do that today, I got to suck today.

00:19:01.238 --> 00:19:06.424
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean like and that for me there there's a raw enthusiasm.

00:19:06.424 --> 00:19:11.615
<v Speaker 1>When you fail as a kid, it doesn't matter, you don't care.

00:19:11.615 --> 00:19:15.339
<v Speaker 1>If you do something, you know what I mean.

00:19:15.339 --> 00:19:16.291
<v Speaker 1>It's like you didn't.

00:19:16.291 --> 00:19:21.923
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to think of childhood things that maybe an adult would consider a failure.

00:19:21.923 --> 00:19:28.882
<v Speaker 1>You lost in a race or you we can use the color outside the lines, the T.

00:19:28.882 --> 00:19:30.750
<v Speaker 1>Oh, maybe let's stay in the lines Like.

00:19:30.750 --> 00:19:34.856
<v Speaker 1>You're like okay, you know, there's not this thing beating down on you.

00:19:35.009 --> 00:19:42.497
<v Speaker 1>There's a quote by Marianne Williamson that says children are happy because they don't have a file in their minds called all the things that could go wrong.

00:19:42.497 --> 00:19:47.252
<v Speaker 1>That's a brilliant quote.

00:19:47.252 --> 00:19:54.895
<v Speaker 1>Kids are happy because they don't have a file in their head that says here's the file, that's all the things that could go wrong.

00:19:54.895 --> 00:20:05.516
<v Speaker 1>And when I came across that quote I was like, yeah, that's me in the studio, all the things that could go wrong today, that went wrong yesterday, that went wrong the day before I was looking at a piece.

00:20:05.516 --> 00:20:11.667
<v Speaker 1>Yesterday I had a great day in the studio as far as just enjoying myself creating.

00:20:11.667 --> 00:20:22.520
<v Speaker 1>The rain was pounding on the metal roof, like we had crazy thunderstorms, tornado warnings, things like that, and it was so loud that it was so peaceful and just beautiful.

00:20:22.520 --> 00:20:29.917
<v Speaker 1>That sound of the rain just crashing on the metal roof it just kind of led me to, oh, let's just try this, let's try this.

00:20:31.092 --> 00:20:33.720
<v Speaker 1>Then, when I walked away and I was in it, man, I was just in the zone.

00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:40.195
<v Speaker 1>I walked away and I looked and I went, ugh, shoot, I'm going to have to paint over that.

00:20:40.195 --> 00:20:48.518
<v Speaker 1>But I laughed about it, joked with myself, and I think that's a hard thing.

00:20:48.518 --> 00:20:54.180
<v Speaker 1>It took me a long time to get to that point and I've had a lot of artists that I've worked with that really, really struggle with that.

00:20:54.180 --> 00:21:24.174
<v Speaker 1>They can't smile about it, they can't laugh it off because that file in their head of all the things that are going to go wrong, predetermined going to go wrong, is actively opening, and so I think it's taken me a lot of years to not even keep that file and easy access in my head, because it is easy to get bent out of shape over what could go wrong when you really have no idea.

00:21:24.174 --> 00:21:25.836
<v Speaker 1>You're just in your space creating.

00:21:25.836 --> 00:21:27.201
<v Speaker 1>Be a kid, play, have fun.

00:21:27.201 --> 00:21:32.329
<v Speaker 1>Take it seriously, but play and have fun and be enthusiastic in the moments and they're horrible.

00:21:34.696 --> 00:21:35.941
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think about something you said earlier.

00:21:35.941 --> 00:21:41.422
<v Speaker 2>You phrased it as, I think, self-judgment, but inner critic, whatever you want to call it.

00:21:41.422 --> 00:21:49.143
<v Speaker 2>I mean that's a myriad of influences and voices that we have sort of acquired over the time.

00:21:49.143 --> 00:22:10.632
<v Speaker 2>So that file of things that could go wrong and I can't speak for anybody else but for me is certainly in the dark moments where I'm not just letting those files creep in but I'm just sitting down like a paralegal preparing for a big trial, just surrounded by all those boxes and boxes of files and actually digging into them, going to that deep, dark place.

00:22:10.632 --> 00:22:23.657
<v Speaker 2>That is not serving the greater goal at all, but it is spending time with those things and realizing that that voice shouldn't get a vote, at least not in the creative process.

00:22:23.890 --> 00:22:36.395
<v Speaker 2>And to your point of coming back to something that felt good in the moment, I mean, I can tell sometimes when I come back the next day I'm like all right, well, the caffeine and the playlist both strong work.

00:22:36.395 --> 00:22:37.076
<v Speaker 2>Not so much.

00:22:37.076 --> 00:22:47.136
<v Speaker 2>I was feeling good, clearly, when whoever did this was having a good time, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be good.

00:22:47.136 --> 00:22:49.074
<v Speaker 2>The news was right.

00:22:49.670 --> 00:22:51.275
<v Speaker 1>The end result was not affected.

00:22:52.910 --> 00:22:53.635
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly right.

00:22:53.635 --> 00:22:57.557
<v Speaker 2>But I've got something you said really got me thinking.

00:22:57.557 --> 00:23:07.163
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if maintaining the spirit of a child in adulthood requires something that children don't have, which is perspective.

00:23:07.163 --> 00:23:12.557
<v Speaker 2>When you're a kid, there's no.

00:23:12.557 --> 00:23:16.423
<v Speaker 2>Your frame of reference, your history is pretty short.

00:23:16.423 --> 00:23:21.101
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can't recall as a seven-year-old reminiscing about what it was like to be five.

00:23:21.101 --> 00:23:29.534
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I did, but I'm pretty sure it was just like here I am, this is what I'm doing, which is a beautiful thing, but I think that I don't know.

00:23:29.574 --> 00:23:51.894
<v Speaker 2>As an adult, you almost have to have a connection to the perspective of the bigger picture to be okay with, or to give ourselves permission to spend time in that childlike space, with the understanding that and this is just a personal belief that there is no wasted paint, there's no wasted time in the studio.

00:23:51.894 --> 00:23:59.563
<v Speaker 2>Like you were saying, everything leads to the next thing in one way or another, and that comes from perspective.

00:23:59.563 --> 00:24:15.290
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know if this is true for everybody, but I think it's true for me as I'm thinking about it, that perspective of I'm going to spend as much time in this place as I can not all my time to your point, but that perspective definitely makes the freedom of that childlike spirit.

00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:20.839
<v Speaker 2>I think a lot more useful if you want to put an adult term to it.

00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:31.759
<v Speaker 2>But it's not just for the sake of being free and loose and having it like it has a there's utility to it and progression of the work.

00:24:32.309 --> 00:24:47.593
<v Speaker 1>I think that perspective is a great way to put it, because when you're a child, there's an illusion of safety that is always around you, because you never truly feel like you're on your own For the most part.

00:24:47.593 --> 00:24:59.116
<v Speaker 1>I know this isn't the same for everybody out there, because we've all had different experiences growing up as children and there are plenty of children that grow up not feeling safe or protected.

00:24:59.116 --> 00:25:11.557
<v Speaker 1>But for the most part, those of us that realize you know, hey, I can go home to mom or dad or grandpa or grandma or aunt or uncle, whoever raises you, whatever, there's some sort of safety or protection that we all feel as children.

00:25:11.557 --> 00:25:13.548
<v Speaker 1>That could be a sibling, right?

00:25:13.548 --> 00:25:17.536
<v Speaker 1>That could be a parental figure, it could be a teacher, it could be whatever.

00:25:17.536 --> 00:25:20.798
<v Speaker 1>But we have this illusion of safety and protection.

00:25:20.798 --> 00:25:26.711
<v Speaker 1>As you get older and you age, that all disappears because now you're completely dependent on self.

00:25:26.711 --> 00:25:31.615
<v Speaker 1>So that safety is wrapped up in you, that protection is wrapped up in what you do.

00:25:31.615 --> 00:25:37.174
<v Speaker 1>If I don't make enough money, I don't survive, I don't have a house, I can't pay bills, those things.

00:25:37.174 --> 00:25:44.576
<v Speaker 1>So when you're a child it's a lot easier for that freedom and that enthusiasm to exist because you're not reliant on yourself.

00:25:44.676 --> 00:26:04.058
<v Speaker 1>Yet for certain things and I think, as an artist, one of the things I love that Steven Pressfield talks about in the book the War of Art when he talks about resistance is that the one place as a creator that you should have or you feel absolute freedom is in your space, in your studio, when you're creating.

00:26:04.058 --> 00:26:09.617
<v Speaker 1>You should walk into that room, as I say at your studio, shut the door and leave the world behind you.

00:26:09.617 --> 00:26:12.195
<v Speaker 1>Your perspective is now that room.

00:26:12.195 --> 00:26:16.878
<v Speaker 1>You shut the door, you leave everything else behind you and it can affect you.

00:26:16.878 --> 00:26:18.122
<v Speaker 1>You're safe there.

00:26:18.122 --> 00:26:21.238
<v Speaker 1>That's your purest form of yourself.

00:26:21.238 --> 00:26:28.180
<v Speaker 1>Truest form of yourself is in that moment when you're writing, you're painting, you're creating, you're sculpting, you're playing music, whatever you're doing.

00:26:28.180 --> 00:26:31.740
<v Speaker 1>That's the purest form of your true self is in that moment.

00:26:31.740 --> 00:26:33.434
<v Speaker 1>Leave everything else behind.

00:26:33.434 --> 00:26:42.306
<v Speaker 1>So I think there are ways we can change that perspective, to bring that childlike enthusiasm into our creating and what we're doing.

00:26:42.306 --> 00:26:44.394
<v Speaker 1>Does that answer your question?

00:26:45.195 --> 00:26:45.917
<v Speaker 2>It does, yeah.

00:26:45.917 --> 00:26:49.729
<v Speaker 2>So I think the natural follow-up question would be how do we do that?

00:26:50.792 --> 00:26:54.476
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it takes time, it takes effort really thinking about it.

00:26:54.476 --> 00:26:58.278
<v Speaker 1>There are plenty of ways that I kind of have told other artists.

00:26:58.278 --> 00:27:04.635
<v Speaker 1>If there's certain quotes you need to put up in your studio that help you remember and enter into those moments, do it.

00:27:04.635 --> 00:27:08.460
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it's silence, maybe it's breathing, maybe it's going into your studio.

00:27:08.460 --> 00:27:11.598
<v Speaker 1>I know I have a friend that goes into the studio and he practices his breathing.

00:27:11.598 --> 00:27:14.478
<v Speaker 1>It's just a sense of meditation before he starts working.

00:27:14.478 --> 00:27:18.259
<v Speaker 1>It's a way for him to just let loose and get rid of things.

00:27:18.259 --> 00:27:27.689
<v Speaker 1>David Lynch and meditation is a huge part of his practice in creating, he said once he had that ability to meditate and focus for a period of time.

00:27:27.689 --> 00:27:39.814
<v Speaker 1>It opened up a whole new world in creating for him because he was able to get rid of all those other things in life and then just truly focus on the creation aspect without everything else creeping in.

00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:43.220
<v Speaker 1>So for me it's music, it's reading.

00:27:43.220 --> 00:27:49.898
<v Speaker 1>There are those soul care moments, as I like to call them, where you're truly caring for your soul throughout the morning or the day or whatever it is.

00:27:49.898 --> 00:27:52.417
<v Speaker 1>Maybe there are days I come in the studio, I just sit and read.

00:27:52.417 --> 00:28:05.471
<v Speaker 1>I'll read Mary Oliver's poetry, I'll read a book, just kind of center myself, so to speak, and then go into the studio and create, put music on I don't know whether it's Philip Glass on piano to start the day, or something grander, smaller.

00:28:05.471 --> 00:28:10.632
<v Speaker 1>That just helps me truly breathe deeply and focus and then I go play.

00:28:10.811 --> 00:28:13.680
<v Speaker 1>But it takes time and not every day is like that.

00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:20.300
<v Speaker 1>Plenty of days where there's no child at all, being honest, there are plenty of days where there's no child at all.

00:28:20.300 --> 00:28:25.679
<v Speaker 1>But I do try for the other side more than the frustrating side, but it's hard.

00:28:25.679 --> 00:28:36.917
<v Speaker 1>It's really hard to explain until you've figured things out to get there, because I see it all the time, not pushback from other artists, but I don't get it.

00:28:36.917 --> 00:28:39.335
<v Speaker 1>I can't do that.

00:28:39.335 --> 00:28:41.436
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how do you do it.

00:28:41.436 --> 00:28:43.935
<v Speaker 1>I can only suggest ideas.

00:28:43.935 --> 00:28:47.967
<v Speaker 1>But we have to find what works for us to find those things.

00:28:49.069 --> 00:28:52.176
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think a big part of it is getting.

00:28:52.176 --> 00:28:54.382
<v Speaker 2>For me it's journaling.

00:28:54.382 --> 00:29:12.320
<v Speaker 2>If I had to, I've got about five or six core habits that if I do whatever three or four out of those five it's going to be a pretty good day, or at least not an awful one, or if it's awful, I'll be more equipped to deal with it, whatever it might be.

00:29:12.320 --> 00:29:30.563
<v Speaker 2>But I think that when it comes to really getting a lot of those just nasty thought goblins out of your head, those just nasty vampires, the self-doubt, all of the inner critic, I'm not aware of a better way to dispel of them quickly than by journaling and just getting them out.

00:29:30.563 --> 00:29:38.493
<v Speaker 2>I'm a big proponent of the morning pages, the Julia Cameron book and approach to just getting things out.

00:29:38.789 --> 00:30:10.256
<v Speaker 2>I think that's probably actually another thing that we could spend an entire episode or more talking about, but that's a big part of it for me is just getting those things out of the way, because the more that again it's back to my opening thought of it's not so much about acquiring more inputs, but it's remembering what we knew all along and getting rid of, or at least setting aside as many of those sticking points as we can along the way, it's just up in the right direction anyway.

00:30:11.351 --> 00:30:19.942
<v Speaker 2>But, like you were saying before, it just comes down to paying attention and being aware of, like, okay, when you get there, when you do feel that, okay, what conditions were present?

00:30:19.942 --> 00:30:22.329
<v Speaker 2>How many of these are controllable?

00:30:22.329 --> 00:30:30.693
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's not going to be 72 degrees and sunny and your sweetheart kisses you on your way out the door and says go get him.

00:30:30.693 --> 00:30:50.343
<v Speaker 2>You know, like everything's not going to be perfect every single day, but other controllable variables are the things that can at least do to influence getting into and being in that state as much as possible or, at the very least, continuing to show up, even not if, but when we're not feeling it.

00:30:51.131 --> 00:30:55.576
<v Speaker 1>Well, and I think ritual is a huge part of that Finding a ritual for you.

00:30:55.576 --> 00:30:56.230
<v Speaker 1>I know what.

00:30:56.230 --> 00:31:00.117
<v Speaker 1>I'm at my best in the studio and creating.

00:31:00.117 --> 00:31:02.782
<v Speaker 1>My ritual is built in.

00:31:02.782 --> 00:31:18.471
<v Speaker 1>I get up, I have coffee, my wife and I read, sit in our chairs, read our books, whatever we're doing that morning, and then when I get to the studio, I may do a little art research and some things, and then I'm in the studio working, but just that ritual.

00:31:18.471 --> 00:31:23.974
<v Speaker 1>If I'm doing that every morning, it just gets built in and this flow just opens up for me.

00:31:24.490 --> 00:31:30.752
<v Speaker 1>But I have a quote I want to read by Picasso because I just love this thinking of all these things we're saying.

00:31:30.752 --> 00:31:39.073
<v Speaker 1>He says it took me four years to paint like Raphael, but a lifetime to paint like a child.

00:31:39.073 --> 00:32:04.744
<v Speaker 1>When you look at Picasso and Raphael high Renaissance painter, very controlled, perfecting his colors, perspective is excellent, like all these things within his work that is so time, controlled, detailed, academic and because that took a lifetime for him to paint like a child freedom.

00:32:04.744 --> 00:32:12.984
<v Speaker 1>Whatever I want to do, however, I want to do it enthusiastic, having fun while I'm doing it.

00:32:12.984 --> 00:32:15.189
<v Speaker 1>Nothing's controlling me.

00:32:15.189 --> 00:32:17.781
<v Speaker 1>I'm just creating and painting.

00:32:17.781 --> 00:32:18.825
<v Speaker 1>I just love.

00:32:18.865 --> 00:32:59.923
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a great representation of how we can also do that in our own heads right control, control, control these things in us rather than feeling totally free, free, free to experiment, to play and do those things yeah, I'm gonna throw one more quote in the mix and then, yes, probably wind down, but it's one of the most famous Winston Churchill quotes success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm most people probably heard that before, but understanding that there's going to be more losses than wins, and protecting that enthusiasm, childlike or otherwise, is pretty important.

00:32:59.984 --> 00:33:08.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, having the having the broad you know push, the broad purpose, that the big picture, you know fire, you know that gets us through the moments when we're not feeling it.

00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.178
<v Speaker 2>You know, in that particular moment, I think is is really important.

00:33:12.178 --> 00:33:18.201
<v Speaker 2>And again back to that perspective idea of just understanding that you know there's going to be, you know, plenty of failures.

00:33:18.201 --> 00:33:41.042
<v Speaker 2>But I think that when we accept that those failures are a necessary part of getting us to wherever we're trying to go, it doesn't make them easy, doesn't make them, you know, not hurt or you know more or comfortable or fun, but it does provide at least some context for, oh okay, this is moving me in in a direction that that I'm intending to go and accepting that.

00:33:41.042 --> 00:33:58.880
<v Speaker 2>All right, I'm gonna, maybe not today, maybe I shut it down for today, but I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and I'm gonna find a way to show up and make more art well, and if you're not failing, you're not trying and an art whoo, like you gotta have a whole lot of failure to find it.

00:34:00.023 --> 00:34:00.605
<v Speaker 1>You know what I mean.

00:34:00.605 --> 00:34:14.735
<v Speaker 1>Like it's one area in life where your failures are not exposed outside of your, outside of your studio, in work and other things like out there in the real world, outside the studio world, you fail, people take notice, right, and that that damages us.

00:34:14.735 --> 00:34:18.329
<v Speaker 1>But you know, we know all the pull up, pull yourself up.

00:34:18.329 --> 00:34:20.597
<v Speaker 1>Your bootstraps can't fall down without getting up.

00:34:20.597 --> 00:34:28.079
<v Speaker 1>Like we know all those old sayings they go with failure and but in your studio, man, it's, there's just something so heavy about failing.

00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:33.918
<v Speaker 1>But man, if you're not failing, you are not pushing, you're not pushing.

00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:58.606
<v Speaker 1>I mean I encourage all my artists like experiment, like crazy, and it's so hard when it doesn't look good or doesn't look strong right, that there's just such a deep feeling of failure and I'm always like nobody knows, nobody saw it but me or the group or your peers that you may have shared it with on whatsapp or by email.

00:34:58.606 --> 00:35:01.157
<v Speaker 1>Nobody else knows, nobody.

00:35:01.157 --> 00:35:03.143
<v Speaker 1>But man, it feels like the world knows.

00:35:03.143 --> 00:35:12.175
<v Speaker 1>I don't know why that is, but you have you're with yourself in the studio and you do something you don't like and you feel like every single person on an instagram just saw what you did.

00:35:12.175 --> 00:35:15.996
<v Speaker 1>Now, if you're sharing it, they absolutely did, but you don't have to.

00:35:16.036 --> 00:35:22.585
<v Speaker 2>That's why I'm always saying don't share everything, keep stuff, but at the end of the day, I mean thanks to the way instagram works.

00:35:22.585 --> 00:35:23.632
<v Speaker 2>Now they're probably actually not.

00:35:23.652 --> 00:35:28.001
<v Speaker 1>They're not going to see it anyways yeah, it's okay yeah, but it's like you know.

00:35:28.001 --> 00:35:34.925
<v Speaker 1>We feel like our failures are recognized and seen more than they are, and it shouldn't be so.

00:35:35.346 --> 00:35:48.132
<v Speaker 1>Once you start to realize that, as an artist, I feel like there's a lot of room for that growth to really start to take place in your work, because you realize, no matter what you do, nobody sees it unless you show them, and that you're gonna fail.

00:35:48.132 --> 00:35:53.804
<v Speaker 1>I mean, who knows what all of Picasso's crappy stuff look like before you got to cubism?

00:35:53.804 --> 00:35:55.509
<v Speaker 1>I'm never gonna know.

00:35:55.509 --> 00:35:58.943
<v Speaker 1>Somebody knows, but we're never gonna know.

00:35:58.943 --> 00:36:00.748
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a good place to end.

00:36:01.472 --> 00:36:04.903
<v Speaker 1>I agree really the whole point is to this whole quote and this thing.

00:36:04.903 --> 00:36:14.492
<v Speaker 1>And we didn't even get into uh Huxley's mescaline and LSD trials at all, but maybe that's what kept his childlike wonder on a constant uh flow.

00:36:14.512 --> 00:36:24.672
<v Speaker 2>I had that thought I wasn't gonna bring it up as a uh, as a enthusiastic, but retired you know psychonaut can definitely say that that kind of thing definitely, you know, sticks with you.

00:36:24.693 --> 00:36:32.358
<v Speaker 1>So I think there's certainly something to be said for that, so which I want to congratulate you on your 20-year milestone, milestone of surprise.

00:36:32.358 --> 00:36:33.782
<v Speaker 1>So congratulations on that.

00:36:33.782 --> 00:36:35.827
<v Speaker 1>That's, that's immense, huge.

00:36:36.268 --> 00:36:55.264
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate it but yeah, just if anything, we just want to encourage you in those moments that suck, that are tough, that are frustrating, like, find that childlike spirit inside, that enthusiasm of yeah, but I just got to make that it didn't work this time, but as a child, right, you just pull out the next sheet of paper in the next box of crayons and you just go to work again.

00:36:55.264 --> 00:37:13.244
<v Speaker 1>So hope that you're encouraged from that, because that's what Nathan and I do on a regular basis create something that is just not strong and we just either go over it or scrap it and pull out that next piece of paper in that next box of crayons or that next jar of play-doh and and we start playing again.

00:37:13.244 --> 00:37:14.586
<v Speaker 1>So I hope that you do the same.

00:37:16.036 --> 00:37:16.358
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

00:37:16.358 --> 00:37:17.385
<v Speaker 2>Join us next time.

00:37:17.385 --> 00:37:19.836
<v Speaker 2>Thanks for being here, committed this far over now.

00:37:19.836 --> 00:37:20.579
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.