WTA Tour Finals & Paris

00:00:14
Speaker 1: Let's get into it. Rare Stabs, it's been a minute. What's up, Kaitlin, It has been a minute.

00:00:19
Speaker 2: And you know a lot of people have been tweeting at me, tweeting at you, tweeting at us, asking the inevitable question of when are you guys going to do another pod? And we would like to apologize to you all because we are lazy. I mean, that's just spottom line. We're not lazy. Actually that's not true. Caitlin is working very very hard on a lot of different projects and various things. I finished up my TV show a week just last week. We've just been busy doing other things and sometimes it's really hard for you, Caitlyn and i'd actually find an hour of our sleeve to talk about tennis.

00:00:58
Speaker 1: I will say thank you for giving us some because it's not for lack of interest or serving you, the people who listen to this podcast with our insights. But I do feel, especially in light of what I have no doubt we're going to get into in the last two three weeks on the tour, that we've already talked about a lot of this stuff because we saw it coming and we call it. Gives me no pleasure whatsoever to say that we had highlighted a number of the issues, particularly on the WTA tour side of things, months ago.

00:01:30
Speaker 3: In fact, you will be encouraged to take.

00:01:32
Speaker 1: A tiny strive through the archives and you will be hard pressed not to find a podcast episode where we say, hey, everything in tennis is great from a governing body standpoint, and those guys are doing great, and no critiques here, because.

00:01:46
Speaker 3: The truth is this was a slow motion train wreck.

00:01:50
Speaker 2: It was, as we like to say in the very uneducated world, a shit show down in.

00:01:55
Speaker 3: King Now let me start with the positives.

00:01:58
Speaker 1: Yes, let's do that, because I was thrilled and the WTA just does deserve a lot of kudos for not bowing to significant pressure to send this thing to Saudi Arabia this year. That's not to say they will not send a future thing to Saudi Arabia. That's not to say that Saudi Arabia doesn't remain a very interested party in getting into tennis. They are hosting the next Gen tournament I think starting next year on the men's side, so exhibitions, etc. So I don't think we've heard the last of Saudi Arabia. That said, given the amount of money that Saudi Arabia was reported to be offering, and given the fact that there are significant concerns among many many stakeholders, I am impressed that the WTA did not bow to pressure and make that decision or ram that decision through, but instead found a country that is very, very notable in its enthusiasm for hosting tennis events, particularly women's tennis. So that's the selection of Cancun on paper was great. I thought the color of the court was great. I thought the field was great, and I thought a lot of the matches, while not the highest quality of tennis for reasons that again we'll get into. You know, the field demonstrated their greatness and their ability to withstand adversity. So those are the positives I feel like that we can say, at least WTA side, because keep in mind, we're recording this ahead of the ATP finals, so we don't know exactly how that shakes out.

00:03:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, do you do you leave just the negative? To me? Is this is this where we're going with this? Like you're just gonna give all the positives and then you're just gonna but what did you think, Renette, Is that what you're doing to me.

00:03:34
Speaker 3: What did you think?

00:03:36
Speaker 2: Pretty much? Yeah, see, there we go. Think listen. I just cannot say enough about Mexican tennis fans in general. Okay, first of all, I'm going to start on the positives as well, Like every single night match at any Mexican tournament is just jam packed. It's awesome. The crowds are great, the positivity that they have. They they're they're they're a fair crowd. They're fully invested in, you know, having great tennis. And you didn't give that to them because you didn't provide them a place to play the WTAF finals where it was going to bring the best tennis out in the best tennis players in the world. When you're talking about Cancun at this time of the year, Jesus are you're going to get wind and rain. That's just my guess. Not a great time to have it there. I'm not sure why the you know, mast you know, haste to get it there at that time of the year was a good idea. We've only played outside in the WTAF finals twice in the history of the WTAF finals have always been indoors. You think about Madison Square Garden to the La Staples Center to indoors and Madrid to indoors, in Turkey to indoors, in Singapore to indoors and Shenzen. I mean I could go on indoors and Munich like I played in thirteen of them. I never played outside except in Doha, and Doha has a bit of an issue with wind sometimes because you're in the desert. But you're not going to get rain, you know what I mean. So, yes, you're going to have some shitty matches based on you know, some really horrendous wind conditions which you can get and Doha, trust me when I tell you some of the worst I've ever played in. But you're not going to get a delay in a match because of the rain. And when you have a certain amount of matches, and a lot of them back to back to back to back every day, you better make sure that you get those matches done that day. And so when you take a chance of putting it outside, you better make sure that there's not going to be rain. And the fact that they built that court and the little players of the WTA Finals didn't get to hit on the main court at all until the day of the first match is absolutely fucking ridiculous. So it's add you can say whatever you want. And I want to absolutely praise the tournament in Cancun for getting the court laid down with the little amount of time that they had, and get the facility up and running and going and the hotel and all that sort of stuff. But the players, I mean, the court was coming apart in the last couple of days. They were standing down holes in the court. Which it's not really the fault of the person that laid the court down, I have to say because and I said this to you on my tenant on my show, my TV show, I was like, it's very hard to lay a court down that quickly in weather conditions like that and know that the court's going to be perfect because you're going to have rain, you're gonna have wind, you're gonna have all this shit. So all the stuff underneath the court doesn't lay properly. Because if you've ever made a tennis court, it's very scientific. You have to lay it down. You can't have all the elements like getting bubbled underneath and water underneath, and so the court, of course it's going to start falling apart. Essentially, that court is going to be like in six months time might even be recognizable. So you've got to be able to have the court laid down enough time that gives it time. This strain open was laid down probably months ago, you know what I mean. So like that's just the way it is. So the fact that you put the organization in Kancu under that much pressure and pissed away money out of the coffers of the WTA where they don't have money to put that court down and that facility is just outrageous to me. I don't understand. And then you know, thankfully we had decent crowds at night in the latter part. But you're not giving people enough time to book their tea, kids, book their hotels, book someone to take care of their dogs, you know that they're leaving at home, or their kids that are there leaving at home, or you know, like like people plan a year or two in advance to go to an event like that, and you're not giving them that time. So you're stopping people going there and buying tickets. God love our tennis fans because body held. There's a lot of people that jump on the plane and went down to cancer at the last minute and good for you. But also, as we saw Eliza Wistcoat, I don't know if you follow her on TikTok and Instagram, she's great. Its fantastic little watch and listen. She was like, they're going I had to go home from watching the matches because the wind and the rain was so bad. She's like, I had to go back to my hotel and watch it on the TV. What like come on? Like so, I don't know, Caitline, you and I have been complaining about the leadership of the WTA for quite a while. And when you have a CEO, and I don't want to completely always shit on Steve because he's a lovely guy, but when you're getting paid more than the marketing dollars that are going out for the WTA, I have a problem with that when you are not doing your job.

00:08:16
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean I think you know, setting aside the things that are out of the control of the WTA, which is weather and wind, Okay, you know part of that should factor into the decision. But I just I truly don't know why they didn't pick a venue that didn't have a court already yes, like yeah, no, there's no courts or even just like an existing court that maybe you would have to put like a temporary roof over or like, you know, it's just it's just again, what's so insane to me is just the lack of forward planning and the lack of marketing. And it's the same staff where it's like, these are the best players in the world. They're every one of them possessing of a great season again eat dynamic game, and you're really not setting them up to succeed, and you're not giving any kind of conditions for people to go and support them because even though the fans want to, the lack of marketing, the lack of organization, and then some of the stuff that's out of your control but shouldn't be out of your control, like weather is just like ohy, Like if you look at the Billy Jean kinkup which starts today, it started, I guess right now.

00:09:23
Speaker 3: You know, they.

00:09:24
Speaker 1: Picked an indoor facility in Seville because there was already a court there and it doesn't matter if it rains or not. And Siville is a city that exists that people can get to and you know, I hope for their sake that they get a good crowd. It seems like the crowds are not bad. But again, like just looking at what the top eight had to put together in eight weeks, maybe less like it's it's sort of unfathomable. And so for me from a just a you said it, Steve Simon gets paid one point three million dollars a year, not including bonuses. I'm sure that doesn't include his expenses, et cetera. The marketing budget is just a little over.

00:09:57
Speaker 3: A million dollars.

00:09:58
Speaker 1: When your CEO makes more than the marketing budget, does you better hope that this product markets itself, which, as we know, with only eight weeks, it cannot. So it's just it's just sort of like bad decision over bad decision over bad decision. And I think any industry that were not as I don't know, like inept as the governing bodies in Tennis are perennially proving to be, particularly the WTA, you just keep it moving like, Okay, well it didn't work out. Sorry, man, your job is over. I mean, Steve Simon has one where year in his contract and then it's hard to imagine, oh my god, there, come.

00:10:33
Speaker 2: On, he's got to just I mean, I'm surprised he didn't walk into the ocean. He can't care. Just going back to Flo's also.

00:10:38
Speaker 1: Talk about the Do you want to bring up the fact that the players have been trying to get a response?

00:10:44
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I would like to do that very much though. And also because one of the things I write down on my little pad to talk about today was no statement from Steve on Tennis Channel, didn't get on air, and he put out what a two page and basically and he started it by saying, hi comma, what Hi comma? And then there was also like two I don't know if you saw, because Caitlin, you're smarter than me. The typos in the letter. There was like there was a couple of typos in the letter. So I'm like, first of all, you're putting out a letter. Why are you doing that? You should be on Tennis channel making a statement, putting it out there. What happened? What the deal was? Stop writing a letter and put it, posting it out there and just being like that's good. I'm good with that. Are you good with that? I can tell you right now. There was somebody that I will not mention because I don't like to throw. Well, actually there was a couple a couple of people that were obviously I mean, I'm friends with everybody down there, and I'm getting text messages and messages from people. You know, some people are sending me photos of the court coming apart. Some people were like, you just told me, oh, I ran into Steve last night, and he, you know, tried to say, oh, you know some well, you know, way to get through this week or what like, you know, they don't want to hear from him. They're so over him. It's ridiculous. And so for his sake, he should like Handy's resignation in as far as I'm concerned, because he's lost trust with all of these players. And the fact that I know a player wrote him a letter tried to stay out of the like public shaming and bl wrote him, didn't even get a response.

00:12:15
Speaker 4: Yeah, what are you You're You're dealing with one of your best players in the world, and you don't even have the audacity to like, hey, let's have a chat and sit down, and I want to discuss that with me.

00:12:27
Speaker 2: If I'm the CEO of the WTA, I am there every day, I am talking to my players every day, and I'm making sure that they are satisfied in what they're trying to get, and I will make sure that they understand why the ramifications are or the results of why we chose things and give it to them. And I know that, like, for example, a check player told me that the government had given given the okay for a Bella Russian to come in and play, because that was the only concern, because I don't think there were any other Russians.

00:12:53
Speaker 1: You're talking about how Utrava together put together an alternate pitch to host the phone, which was a better one, even better financially than what Yes Cancun would have offered. And the hitch there was that they were not going to allow Belarussian Russian players, which would have been obviously problematic for Arenas Avalanka. But you're saying that that's not the case, and I've seen it reported elsewhere that that's not the case.

00:13:18
Speaker 2: Yes, the apparently, from what I heard from this check player was the government had given the okay. Now it happened we had the situation as von A Raver coming into play. I think it was in Prague or might have been Australa. I'm not sure. It was somewhere in the Czech Republic and they turned her away and at the last minute she didn't know. And I'm like, well, she probably should have known, first of all, But second of all, if it's out there in the public and the government has said no, we will allow it. We will make an exception on this one tournament because of whatever reasons, how can you not put it there. It's I mean, and nothing against Mexico because as I've already stated, I want more tournaments in Mexico. And the support was amazing at night, but we're talking about solid crowd support, indoors getting it done on a timely basis. Instead, they're playing a final of a WTA finals on Monday, and then some of those players are flying to the Billy Jean King Cup and having to play the next day, Like what the fuck?

00:14:10
Speaker 1: Like really, it's it's upsetting, and I think again it speaks to what are we doing as a sport if we aren't listening to our top players who are taking it upon themselves to not only prepare themselves for the tournaments, play their best, make an incredible effort. Obviously they have sponsor obligations, their lives are very complicated and unpredictable to go out of their way to try to get the leadership to lead like it's unacceptable. And kudos to the women in particular on the tour who have been very vocal and trying very hard to just you know, make the case.

00:14:44
Speaker 2: And also, you know, I.

00:14:45
Speaker 1: Think they've been quite understanding, like they've been pretty good sports. And so I saw a lot of I saw a lot of blowback this week, including from Ben Rothenberg, who was like, Oh, it's not a good look to complain if you're there. These women shouldn't be complaining. They should be supporting the like.

00:14:59
Speaker 2: You know, give me a break, no chance, no chance. If I'm there as a WTA top A player and I've worked my ass off all year, I've supported your tournaments. I've gone and played your mandatory WTA one thousands. When I don't want to fucking play because I'm injured or I'm tired, you're forcing me, and you're also finding me okay. And I know several players that were like one player that wanted to play an exhibition before Wimbledon but was told, oh, you have to play this, and then they were given permission. I can tell you a million stories from behind the scenes that I won't because I know agents and I know players, and I know that the history of this tour, and I'm super supportive of the tour. You know how I feel about this. A lot of my friends work there. I only want to support the WTA. Twur Tennis is my favorite sport, clearly, and I wanted to succeed. But when you keep having these absolute complete cockups and you're forcing players to play those events to support your tour, but then you your job is to make sure the best tournament in the year that you control as a WTA is absolutely shit. That is on you. You sorry, So so you know what those players buss are asked to be there and maybe don't want to go and play back to back weeks in Canada and Cincinnati because they're tired, but you're forcing them to because it's in the rules of the wt you must play your mandatory you get a zero point and that hurts your ranking and blah blah blah, and you're forcing them to go and play those tournaments, and yet you're not prepared to put on a tournament at the end of the year. It's worth the work that they have put in for the year for you. Yeah, I mean, I say for you, because yeah, they're abiding by your rules all year long and then they have to abide by that at the end of the year.

00:16:33
Speaker 1: And also look not for nothing, but also like the fans didn't get a particularly good experience, Like I was pumped to watch so terrible.

00:16:41
Speaker 2: Jesse Pegoula.

00:16:42
Speaker 1: I was pumped to watch her in the se blank. I was pumped to watch you know, Marquet Devandrossova. I was pumped to see Ons and and Eger and everybody. And the fact is like the you know again, the weather was unfortunate, but it's just it's a it's a bad product. If the stands are empty, the players are obviously having a bad time, and the frustration is leaking out of every you know, out of every pore with everybody. And I think, you know, again, like after this exceptional tennis season where we saw Ego winning slams, sebal Anca winning slams, Coco winning her first slam, Like tennis could not have been on a bigger high after this summer with Coco, Carlos alcor record set, but Coco in particular, you know, and I think just not people not knowing this thing was on people not being able to watch it, people not being able to visit it, you know, and ken Kun's not like an unfamiliar place that people can't figure out how to get to, particularly in North America, to go support North American players. You know, I don't need a lot of excuses to go to Mexico and yet and yet and yet, and so I think, you know, for me, it's just, you know, what was really unfortunate about it is, you know, I've heard you talk about playing the WTA Tour Finals in Madison Square Garden with the roof coming off because people are so pumped to be there and you're seeing the best players in the world and it's the end of the year and you're you're watching a spectacle. That's what the WTA Tour, owning this event should be considering. And I just, again, I don't.

00:18:08
Speaker 3: Know why that's something that they are.

00:18:12
Speaker 1: I have some guesses as to why they're failing, but it's but at this point it's kind of like, Okay, you absolutely have to accept responsibility and make a change, because otherwise, what.

00:18:21
Speaker 2: Are you doing here? Listen, the number one sponsor of the w t A two is he Logic, which is being fantastic that that sponsorship deal came about from Coco Vanderwey's boyfriend playing golf with a dude on a golf course in San Diego. Like nobody from the WTA even brought that deal in, Like so you know, so what you will blah blah blah. They're getting there paychecks paid because some guy played golf with some guy you know who wasn't even a part of the WTA tour. So I'm you know, look, you know I snapped when it came to the Madrid trophy ceremony. I've said it now on a couple of other podcasts and things like that, But the trophy ceremony in Madrid where they didn't allow the players to talk after the little shenanigans from Sablenka kind of giving them ship the day before in the singles final, an Eager I think it was eg was an Eager. No, it was sable Anka for sure.

00:19:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like, and uh yeah, and Azarenka.

00:19:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as Aarenka. And so when you had Azarenka in the doubles final next day with hawdaj Maya, and you had Coco and Jessica Pagoula, so you've got essentially four of your best singles players in the world. You know, multiple Grand Slam champion and you know a future Grand Slam champion and hawdaj Maya, who won you know, the jew High Tournament, which by the way, was ten times better than Cancun. Your Head tournament was awesome. Let's talk about amazing matches subject.

00:19:56
Speaker 1: Amazing matches. Seemed like the crowds were really in to it. We got a first time Hadaj Maya, who had a great end of the season despite nearly uh.

00:20:08
Speaker 2: Hands in a girl the Queen q Kin Win Chang Chang when they got to the final, had a great in the tournament after getting after getting dumped by Win facet Wim fact, which she was not happy about. And I don't blame her because that was some bullshit.

00:20:25
Speaker 3: Sorry, that was some bullshit.

00:20:26
Speaker 1: While we're on the subject of Chinwin gets dumped by Fasset, who's going back to Naomi Naomi Osaka.

00:20:36
Speaker 3: Chinwin just goes on a tear.

00:20:38
Speaker 1: She's like fuck this and just decides to win the Pan Asian Games, gets to be the number one player in all of Asia on the women's side on the trophy stand along with our favorite zz in the Men's and basically doesn't lose a match until the finals of the w t A Elite Trophy in against Maya like hats off, like she was doing some Angela Bassett, you know, like waiting to exhale, sort of like you know, setting a car on fire stuff, which I really appreciate. And I guess, like, you know, not wanting to throw a whims Son under the bus who seems like a lovely guy, Like that's not cool, really though, I.

00:21:14
Speaker 2: Think what he did was not good look as a coach, and you know, but he had to not here's my thing, and I would like to talk to him, so I don't want to completely throw him under the bus. And I haven't spoken to him. But when you sign a contract, which he clearly did with kin Winnen, and she knew, and she was like, Okay, we're going to be playing the whole year and you're under contract to Da Da Da and then you pull the swifty and go back to and not a Taylor swift, but you go back to Naomi. You knew Naomi was coming back. We all knew Naomi was coming back. Naomi said she wanted to start playing this strain and open this was months and months and months ago, So why would you sign that contract knowing that Naomi's probably going to come back? Like I would have said to I would have said to Q, listen, Naomi comes back and just sides to play in January, I'm going back to but I'll give you six months. Like that's yeah, I would have said that. I did that with Sam when I was working with during the pandemic, and I worked with Genie Bouchard, and I said to Genie, look my obligations to to Sam. I am working with Sam, but Sam's not traveling because of the pandemic. So I can travel with you for X amount of time and I would like to do that, and I would like to spend the time with you. But when Sam comes back, she's my priority. And so I was upfront with Jeanie. And then we went ahead and did what we did, and she had success and all that, and Sam came back and I went back to Sam. But you have to be upfront when you're a coach in that circumstance. And so to sign a contract and then go I got back to Naomi because I feel like she's going to win more than you are and pay me more, because clearly it came down to money, because word on the street is it when likes the cashola, and it's some of the reasons why a lot of people have flicked him, you know that have had success, like the demand for more money. And it's like, okay, listen, if that's what you want your reputation to be, then good for you, but not.

00:22:58
Speaker 1: Cool, just brutal, especially when you're watching an up and coming talent at a really.

00:23:03
Speaker 3: Critical part of their career really take off.

00:23:07
Speaker 1: But you know what, s Win.

00:23:08
Speaker 3: Proved that she doesn't need one for She's doing just fine and.

00:23:12
Speaker 2: She's good either way. And if she wants to know the coach I am currently free.

00:23:16
Speaker 1: Well maybe let's make that happen because obviously she's got a lot of.

00:23:21
Speaker 3: Fans, myself included.

00:23:23
Speaker 1: We should as we always do. But as a footnote, maybe talk about the men a tiny bit. Obviously they were in Paris this week.

00:23:30
Speaker 2: Again.

00:23:33
Speaker 3: You know what one thousand Master's one thousand title.

00:23:35
Speaker 2: A couple of couple of things. Let's start with the positive, first incredible week from Novak comes back after you know us open place. You know, this is where these players when they get older and they get they're better. They just can pick and choose the tournaments they want to play. And so I think he did such a smart thing, knowing he'd had a long year, he's having a fantastic year, winsy us so Open, and just decides to play, you know, and win Paris, because why not an atop one thousand and he will. He will win the ATP finals again, I'm fairly certain of that. I think the only person that can beat him is maybe Sinner. I think he's playing that well. I give janicks In a ton of credit for him the last couple of months. He's played really well. Very disappointing for him at the US Open when he last I know, and I think Darren and that team has done a really good job of getting him just he's just better and better, and he's going to and he needs to implement coming into the net a little bit more drop shots, all the things that al KaAZ can do, because he has the baseline game for sure, but he has to have that little bit of variety, and I think that that's the only way he sort of can beat someone like Novak. He has to have a bit more variety and coming to that something that Alcarez does when he's healthy. So I think Yanik Sinn is going to win a Grand Slam next year or if not next year, within the next twenty four months for sure. In my opinion, I think he's so good and he's such a great guy. Alcoraz, my only concern is these injuries to keep popping up. I'm telling you it's going to it's not good and I think it's going to really hurt his career if he doesn't get it under control. But Novak, i'mbelieving. But can we talk about when we're going to give shit to the WTA? Can we give some shit today? A top Absolutely, what are you doing scheduling six matches on a cent at one court like ter when it's a medium slow court clearly or at best medium, And these guys are playing fifty ball rallies. They're lasting three hours because they don't have wind and rain to deal with, so they're like actually playing real tennis. And it's like there're three hour matches and you're playing six of them on a court and you you you wonder why Yenick Sinner finishes a match at ten to three in the morning, doesn't get to bed till probably five ish and doesn't come back and play that same day. Are you really have in mind? What are they doing again?

00:25:44
Speaker 1: What are we doing to optimize the player experience? What are we doing to optimize the fan experience?

00:25:49
Speaker 2: And how?

00:25:49
Speaker 3: How should we?

00:25:50
Speaker 1: I get why you want to sell Nate tickets and have an extra session. The Nate ticket situation in tennis has been, I think long a problem, and I get why all the slams are now starting to do it. I get while the tournaments are doing it, But.

00:26:02
Speaker 2: Caitlin, the ninth session is fine if you're starting at six am or seven am, at seven pm, that's okay.

00:26:08
Speaker 1: Like when you have six matches a day, the eighth session becomes a problem, doesn't it?

00:26:13
Speaker 3: And so for me, right, make the tournament a day longer?

00:26:17
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like again the no no fast six matches my friend on one fucking court, Okay, I have played a billion, mate, I've played a billion indoor matches, okay, And I been you know, predominantly put on often last on on center court as a doubles player, right because they always play a singles match at seven and then they you know, in case something happens in singles. They always want to have a match, so they often used to put double second on, so I would go on the court all the time at ten thirty eleven o'clock. I'm like, yeah, fuck it, that's what I deal with. That's what it is, right. But when you're playing six singles matches on an indoor court, yeah, you ain't getting up the court until two am or three am, which is what happened. So how is that even happening? And you talk about the fan experiences, yeah, I mean there was amazing. I couldn't believe how many people were still there at two thirty two forty five to watch the watch. But you expect a player to come back that same day and play a match when he has ATV finals in a week in two in in his home country. He ain't putting himself at risk. So you you fucked yourself by having terrible schedule. You lost one of your best players because he pulled out, And what are you doing to help the future of your tour by doing something like that? Is outrageous. So there should be another court playing a match on another court or that's it. I mean, I just I literally was sitting here Kaitlin at home. You and I live in New York, and I'm looking at the scores on at website, you know, WTAATV website, and I see that Sinner is a set like two to one in the third. I'm like, what it was like, I don't know what the time was, like maybe eight o'clock at night here in New York. I'm like, oh my god, yeah, I'm okay. So I text Darren Cahill and he tips me back. He goes, Yah's still happening, Like what, hang on? It's two uncons How is the egos? It's so fucked up?

00:28:08
Speaker 1: No, unconscionable, there's no and for what reason, right, Like, obviously these matches important. Obviously there's a lot on the line points and money and you know, prep for the for the HP Tour finals. But again to your point, like, if these tournaments are meant to connect to each other, if this is meant to be a season, then having some compassion for the bodies of these players, especially to your point, thirty forty to fifty ball rallies over the course of three hours for three set matches. These are three set matches. This is not a best of five competition. And yeah, I'm good for Center for honestly pulling out and saying something like I think what if nothing else This year has shown us from a sort of blatant disregard for player voice and safety in a lot of cases, and health, which is just go on strike, guys, go on strike, do it together and figure out what's important to you. One thing that I am a little disappointed is whenever the players complain, they tend to complain about prize money. To me, fine, if you're going to go after the tournaments that make a ton of money and get especially the slams, and get a proportion of that prize money. But more it's the working condition, it's the power to set your own schedule. To me, that seems like way more of an issue, right. The idea that to your point when we were talking about the women, like, these tournaments are mandatory, These tournaments come with fines if you don't show up.

00:29:26
Speaker 3: These tournaments.

00:29:27
Speaker 1: You know, need to play into each other in a way that creates a season. And so when you're creating these schedules and you're denying players the opportunity to maybe go do an exhibition to earn money, or you're denying them the ability to go home and rest ahead of something that's important. Unless you're nobadack and you can just kind of skip chunks of the tournaments, then you're jeopardizing ultimately your product and your workforce and for what you know, for to have one better name in a tournament, we can week out. I would just sort of argue, like the players, I think also need to hear like it's not always just about prize money. It's about changing the structure of the tour, and I would love to see them tackle more structural things as opposed to like we need more money and it's like, well sure.

00:30:09
Speaker 2: But exactly well no, I think no.

00:30:11
Speaker 1: More about like having a voice and deciding where the organization goes.

00:30:17
Speaker 2: Well, that was sort of one of the things I wanted to mention about the WTA in Cancun and also with this situation in Paris, is that there needs to be stronger leadership for the players. And you know, I know that there's players on the player board at the WTA, right I'm sure the same with the ATP. But the people that are representing the players, and some of them are ex players that are gone into business, and what are you guys doing? I can't. Yeah, and honestly, listen, don't take offense to this. Players that may listen to our podcasts from time to time, but we're not the smartest, we're not business savvy. But yes, you know you ate, you know, I know you played college tennis Skitland, but you're journalists like you have your you know, your brain's ticking a little bit different to some players that are playing on the tennis tour. And I put myself in that category. I'm no dummy. But listen, you know, when it comes to business, when it comes to you know, TV rights, I mean the fact that Steve didn't, you know, go into bed with the ATP tour on that TV tennis TV deal. What now you're doing? Like, what are you doing now? You in bed with the w t A the Tennis channel?

00:31:26
Speaker 1: Now?

00:31:27
Speaker 2: Who are like putting people ball over your matches? What? And the ATP are doing great with their TV rights, They're they're killing it. We can be a part of that. He decided, no, no, it's not long enough, it's not whatever the reason was, he decided to go against it. So on that decision alone, he should lose his jomb okay because the A top are killing it with that Tennis TV deal. So it's like, so when you've got that, I don't understand why we don't have better player representation because we should have players represented by people that really a business savvy and will also understand the sport and their players and not players. Players shouldn't be the ones going into the bird board meeting go this is what we want. So because I really know the nuances of like structure and business and all that sort of stuff. So unless you had a player that's an ex player that's coming back and really fighting tooth and nail, because I know some of the people that represent the players, they're not doing that. So that's where we need to step up as an association. We need to have better play at representation. The PTPA, they're quite aggressive in their wording, They're quite aggressive and some of the things are doing and I know some players that are not so super cool about the keen about getting support like supporting that because of some of the people that are speaking out on their behalf. I know that from sort of undertones. But at the same time, there needs to be better play at representation when it comes down to it, speaking a player representation Caitlin and we'll get off the ATP Tour Finals. We'll wrap that up once it starts playing. But and I do want to say, and I did post this on my Instagram, that you and I did pick essentially the finalists of the WTAF finals. You picked the Goola to win the tournament. I thought she was going to have a great tournament. And I did say she was going to flip around what she did not do the year before, which was win a match. And I knew she would flip around and play much better this season. But I just gave the edge to EGA. But we both predicted the final. But I have to say, when it comes to surprises over the last week, what about Patrick Moore Tugler coming out and basically finally saying, oh, it was my fault in my teams. Wait, Halla, what are your thoughts on that?

00:33:29
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it was overdue to sort of say like, hey, listen, at the end of the day, if you're kind of like we were talking about Steve Simon, if it's your event, you take the lumps. If it's your player and the team giving her supplements was your player and under your carrer, you have to take the lumps. I think that that's part of it. Like if you're a coach who's working with a player and they have a terrible season, part of it is just, hey, it didn't work out.

00:33:54
Speaker 3: I take responsibility.

00:33:55
Speaker 2: This was my goal.

00:33:56
Speaker 1: So kudos to Patrick for speaking on it. Obviously, that whole situation super super messy. But I yeah, I mean, I'm sort of surprised it took this long, and I wonder what prompted the.

00:34:10
Speaker 3: Outreach.

00:34:11
Speaker 1: Do you have any insight in terms of what whether something changed from his perspective.

00:34:16
Speaker 2: I have no insight into why he decided to come out now, but I agree with you it is too little, too late. And unless he's saying it now with the cass you know, the cass arbitrational. What if you call it coming out where they have to go in front of them and hopefully they get a little bit more of a lenient sentence, And he's trying to put it out now for that particular court battle. Maybe he thinks it might sway Cass into saying yep, blah blah blah, And a lot of people are like, yeah, but her passport was a little unusual. I don't know. I just feel like when a player's played ten years on tour and it's been tested at nauseum like all of us are. And you know, you clean, clean, clean, clean clean. All that time you played, I mean she would have been tested a million times and all the tournaments that she played, and off season and out of competition, which we all have to do, and you have you wearabouts forms and you have to tell them where you are every single day and they can come and test you at any time. And then all of a sudden you change teams and within six months, and she was dealing with a lot of injuries, remember the calf muscle issues she was having, and various different things, and they probably were trying to figure out a way to help that recover with that calf muscle injury. And I don't know, I'm completely speculating, which I probably shouldn't do, but I have to think that maybe they were trying to get that injury going and fixed and get her back on track. And maybe they felt that you talked about collagen and YadA YadA and brought that into her, you know, trying to get that into her system, and it fucked her over. And I don't know, I mean, you and I have different kind of feelings towards this, but I just I don't know. I just don't see her as somebody after all this time that goes, yeah, I need an edge now.

00:36:04
Speaker 1: I just I mean, I my opinion, and it's just that it's not an educated opinion. But my opinion is that I am glad Patrick addressed this. I definitely, you know, think that the team and the responsibility therein was obviously like you know, his team was involved in this, But I also.

00:36:22
Speaker 2: Think like.

00:36:25
Speaker 1: Her repeated tests, like it doesn't look good for her and I and I know that you're speaking from a perspective of knowing Darren.

00:36:33
Speaker 2: And repeated test it was one test.

00:36:36
Speaker 1: There was more than there was more than a few. It wasn't just one test. And for that reason, the levels and the well.

00:36:44
Speaker 2: It was the passport test that that they came back on that they really went hard on her, and it was she was she.

00:36:51
Speaker 1: Was charged with two separate breaches and again there was one that they really went hard on.

00:36:56
Speaker 3: But again I just I.

00:36:58
Speaker 2: Don't but it was one I believe I was believed we probably shouldn't know this information before we put it all out there, but I believe it was the one test was positive at the US Open and that's the two batches that they did of the same yearine test. And then they found an anomaly in her passport because they went back or whatever and they decided that there was some anomalies with her blood passport. So that's where you're getting the two from. Am I correct and.

00:37:23
Speaker 1: Saying there were two separate cases. Yes, but she had not previously failed the drug test.

00:37:30
Speaker 3: It just there was enough regularity.

00:37:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, But but there was enough of regularity that there were a couple of different irregularities, is my point. Like it was irregular, the passport was irregular, and the I don't know, I don't want to.

00:37:51
Speaker 2: I think we feel like I think we feel like, look, there's always going to be ambiguous.

00:37:56
Speaker 1: And I don't feel like there's not going to be ambiguity. It feels something was something wrong happened here for sure, and it doesn't feel like it was a mistake.

00:38:05
Speaker 3: That's my opinion.

00:38:07
Speaker 2: I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is I don't think that she was like, yes, I'm going to do this, this is going to help me. I know it's against the rules. I think that she took it thinking that they were like, yeah, this is good for you. You're all good. Because also I do really trust Darren Ca Hill's opinion on this. And when he was coaching her for a number of years, he was adamant that she was adamant about everything she put into her system was okay. He was like, she would not ask once, she would ask five times, are you sure this is okay? Are you sure this is okay? And Darren, of course, you know, loves Simona and is like a second daughter to him and he respects the hell out of her. But for him to go on the record and say this is just something that is so against what I knew as her as a tennis player. Whenever we would give her anything, or someone would give her a new drink or sports drink or something to eat or take, she was adamant that it was okay. Now, he didn't need to come out and say that. He could have just like laid low and said, you fucked up, you left me, and you went to Patrick markt Auglu and you paint the price. He could have been petty, but he didn't. He came out and said this is how I know Simona, and so for me that that stands a lot. That makes a big difference for me hearing that from Darren. And I'm not saying it's he knows everything for a fact, but that's his perspective.

00:39:35
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's valuable. And I think again, like I yeah, it's sad. I mean, obviously one of the best players in the world who's got a slam is not on tour because of this, and I think that's always a bummer. Okay, we should probably wrap it up because it's been a minute, but we should also get back in the studio to talk more as the season progresses. But I'm glad we have look more than anything else.

00:39:58
Speaker 3: I'm not glad we.

00:39:59
Speaker 1: Called it regards to the leadership of the tennis but it's at this point it's the joke's on you guys, like we're just talking on a podcast, Like you guys are the ones who have to clean yourselves up from this mess.

00:40:09
Speaker 2: So get it done, get it done, get it done. And you know what, I don't even want to talk about the WTA digital side of it, with their website and they're all this. I mean, I could have gone on forever, but we don't need to because we've done it all year. And as you said, we don't like to be right, but we were right on this one again. And someone, No, I don't want to be right. I'm so over being right with the WTA. I want to be so wrong.

00:40:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:40:33
Speaker 2: I want to only be right when I say how great this product is and how great our leadership is and how great everything is, and then I'll be really happy and I'll stop bitching. Okay. So no hashtag dick kicks anymore. Okay, but as far as I'm concerned, leadership at the top needs to change, Okay, And so that's my point, all right, Caitlyn. It's been great, It's been real. It's been a while. I'm sure that our listeners are really loving that we came with the hammer today.

00:40:59
Speaker 3: We always do.

00:41:00
Speaker 1: All right, until next time, Renee, and thank you everybody for being patient with us. We'll be back soon. Keep listening, keep giving us your feedback, and uh yeah, well here we are.

00:41:08
Speaker 3: We're just telling it like it is, per the usual.

00:41:11
Speaker 2: Viv in Mexico, Okay, like I don't know if anyone so she on takes a little celebration last night on her Instagram where she sucked in the helium and went back, did you see that.

00:41:23
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go look at it now.

00:41:25
Speaker 2: I don't see Ego being a big drinker, so I guess helium was her way to celebrate. But anyway, amazing. It was pretty funny. But anyway, all the Mexican fans, we love you. Thanks for going and being awesome fans, and hopefully the WTA gets together for the WTA Finals next year. Until later when we report on the ATP Finals, it's been real. Thanks Caitlin. Bye everyone,