Making Time to Read with Anne Bogel (Author, Blogger, and Podcaster). Ep 19

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercam. I'm a mother of four, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah hart Hunger. I'm a mother of two and soon to be three and a practicing physician. We are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, from figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura, and this is episode nineteen on making time to read with our guest and Bogel. We're very excited to talk with her. In the main segment of this episode. It's gotten us thinking about all things books because Anne is a book queen. She knows all things, all recommendations. So Sarah, we've been talking to some of our favorite books, like what's something you've actually reread? A book you've reread? Oh, I think the book that I've reread most recently was Mirror Kami's Norwegian Wood, and I think I've read it probably about three times, although not recently. So maybe it's time to pick it up again. Other than that, really, I'm not a big rereader in general, and I will throw out a huge nerd alert that I've read David Allen's Getting Things Done twice because I've found his philosophy so influential. I wanted it to really like soak in So yeah, but Mirror Kami's Norwegian Wood. Why did you read that so many times? Norwegian? Oh my gosh, It's just got this peaceful, lilting quality. And I love the scenes where they're just sort of out in the middle of nowhere doing not much. I mean, that's that I think is Mirror Kami's absolute strength, Like he can make it sound just so like the essence of life to have a certain you know, he's always talking about like having a classical music album on and cooking some delicious Japanese concoctions. So I think I just find it very soothing. I I've actually started reading it. I started reading it last night. It was on my to be read list, and then when you mentioned that it was the book you'd read, you know, three times, It's like, oh, well, I should read it, clearly. I mean, I like, well, I really hope you like it. Other things he's written, so hopefully I will. So the one novel that comes to mind that I have reread three times To the Lighthouse. Virginia. Oh, I haven't read that. It's it's good. It's short, so if you're going to read a Virginia Wolf book, and it's also relatively accessible, which some of her other stuff when she got a wee bit more avant garde, is much less so, so I would definitely recommend it as a Virginia Wolf book to read. That or Missus Dolloway is also very accessible, and a lot of people who've you know, read The Hours or something like that would want to read the book it was kind of based on. But yeah, To the Lighthouse is great, so I also got that sort of lilting, beautiful prose quality. It's about a family vacation, but it's really about life in general and people's capacity for change, which is somewhat of an amazing thing. And it's kind of crazy to think of her writing this when she was so horrifically ill herself. You know, she wound up taking her own life not not too long thereafter, but you know, she was. It's just such a beautiful, almost you know, happy book. And and so there's there's something just so profound about that contrast that I find compelling to keep rereading. What are your kids like to read? Well, my younger one certainly is not actually reading himself yet. That that series with Ada Twist Scientists and Iggy Peck Architect by Andrea Beattie. He's super into that Nuffle Bunny series Anything by Moe Williams. He loves it. And Annabel has started to get into chapter books, although since you know, we're recording this a few weeks early, but the time recently changed and now all of a sudden, she's too tired every night. But she really liked Charlotte's Web that we recently just finished. What about yours? So, my older son has been rereading all the Harry Potter books. He's really been getting into them. There's new illustrated ones that have come out. They're like beautiful coffee table looking type books. He's been buying those and reading through them, really enjoying that. He's actually been reading it to a six year old sister. Oh, I love that cute, wonderful, Although it usually doesn't occur to him to want to do this until like nine thirty at night and I'm like, no, she a sleep. You cannot do this, you cannot keep her up, like just because you forgot to read it to her earlier. So yeah, I've been into those. You know, I'm gonna throw out in terms of like, there's so many like crappy celebrity written children's book but we have actually really liked the freckle Faced Strawberry books by Julianne Moore that she has written decent children's books and they're really well illustrated by a woman named Lewynn fam who I've gotten to interview several times and who's amazing as an artist. So I'll throw those out there as books that have had some staying power despite its feel bad saying despite because I'm sure not all celebrities, but she's she's actually really a good children's book author. Who happened? That's really cool movie starr? And then we've always like Cloudy with the chance of Meatballs perpetual. Oh yeah, mine love that is the idea of calling from this guy is just so inherently wonderful that they love that. And what I said one morning in Maine, I will throw out sort of a you know, caveat on that that it's very slow and it's kind of long. I think one morning in Maine maybe came out before they said it that, you know, all children's books have to be about thirty two pages in length because of the way they're printed, and this was, you know, somehow exempt from that. But it's it's a good one if you've ever been to Maine. It has a very good main sort of feeling. Makes me want to curl up with the llll Bean catalog every time I read it with the kids. So that's a that's a fair perfect winter pick. I love it. We are very I did to have on the program today and Vogel, who is the blogger behind Modern Missus Darcy. She is also the host of the podcast What Should I Read Next, which Sarah and I both listen to religiously, and she is the mom of four children. How old are they now? Anne? Oh, they're getting so old. We have a seven, ten, twelve, and fourteen year old. Oh my goodness, fourteen. I know, I think in my mind they're still like babies, but I guess that's just when I mind they're still babies. So they've grown up with the blog, I guess to say so yeah, both of us love to read modern missus Darcy. We get a lot of our book recommendations from there too, so I guess. And my first question for you is, how do you decide what to read next? Oh? Wow? I think people expect me to have some kind of science or spreadsheet, and really I read what I need to read for work or because my kids are asking me to please read a book, and I read what I'm excited about, And often I get excited about books by talking to other readers. Although we are getting ready to enter I realize that it's not Christmas yet, but we're getting ready to enter Summer reading guide season around here. Every year we put out a big summer reading guide. It is the big reading project we do. I keep saying we, like I'm not the only reading I'm not the only one who works and plus assistance to acolytes. That is what I mean. And also, I honestly think it's that like feminine insecurity thing, like it just feels more official to say we, but really it's me, it's you. We will read a metric ton of books coming out between about March first and the fourth of July and share our favorites that we've actually read cover to cover the middle of May, usually a week or two before Memorial Day, so that starts almost now. So that's just a big project. But most of the time I read what I'm excited about. Yeah, But for our listeners who are not in the in the book world, it's because you can get access to books like about what three or four months before they're published usually is that when people start sending them to you. When I'm lucky and ask nicely, I mean I'm not I'm not important enough that the publishers are like, oh, make sure Anne gets a copy. And that wasn't the case when I started blogging. But even I've heard from new readers who don't have like major online presences that if you ask nicely and say you have an Instagram account, it's not just that I'm so special. But I am on a bunch of mailing lists now, and like any catalog you subscribe to that keeps coming, books keep showing up on my doorstep, which is wonderful, But I'm running out of shelf space rapidly, exactly, and probably out of time. Because you have some limited bandwidth, it does make it harder to decide which to read next. Yeah, well, and certainly that's a question a lot of our listeners struggle with. And you know, we aim this podcast at very busy women who are working big jobs raising kids, and reading is probably one of those things that gets shoved to the side for many people. And if somebody is listening to this and realized, like, geez, I haven't read a book in a while, what are some good ways to kind of ease back into that reading habit. Ooh, that's a great question, because I realized as you were asking me, how do I decide what to read next. It's true that I read what I'm excited about, but I've also been reading and reading a lot for a long time. So I think I have this software operating in the back of my brain that says, what have you been reading lately? What do you need to balance that out? What have you not been reading lately that you really want to read in one part of your brain, even if you don't tend to pull like the heavy novels, for example, off the shelf. So all those micro decisions are happening in the back of my mind before I do sit down with a new book. I just finished a book last night, so I actually need to decide which novel I'm going to read next later today, And says Anne, right, because you know she finished book last night. She's like, well, I have to be reading now. It's ten o'clock in the morning. If I haven't read yet, I just like to know what's coming next, because deciding is hard, and when it's time to run out the door later to sit in some waiting room for a kid's appointment, I want that book already in my purse because otherwise I'm going to be late because I'm going to stand in front of my shelves going what comes next. I would say that if you haven't been reading in a while, like go for the low hanging fruit, read the thing that has made you think, oh, I wish I had time to read that because I've been looking for that, Or read the book that's been sitting on your nightstand because you do actually want to read it. Or my favorite is to pick something really really short and go with that. I like that, or like an easy you know, one of those candy fluffy books. I feel like sometimes that gets me in a mode if I've been out. Pick something that's just a little mindless, but fun and then sometimes that leads to more, you know, meaty stuff later Gateway drug for bigger book. So and what I mean not to make you cough up your whole recommendation list here, but just a title or two that is short and easy. If it's somebody who hadn't read in a while, like you know, we'll give us a crowd pleaser or two. Well, I don't know about the I think this is a crowd pleaser, but that doesn't mean everybody knows about it. There's this new book out. It's called Heating and Cooling. It's by an author i'd never read before whose name escapes me, Kim Marie Martin. Maybe she's the poet Laureate of the state of Mississippi. So I probably just lost a bunch of people right there. But these are micro memoirs, which basically means she's telling three sentence to six page funny, heartwarming, tear jerking, complicated stories of her own life. And I was reading this on the couch the other night, and she was she was talking about I'm not going to tell you what she was talking about, but because it'll sound ridiculous, but she was just talking about a moment in her real life. And I was like cackling on the couch and my kids were like, Mom, you what are you reading? And then she tell she tells stories about her sister and her husband and her children that like catch you off guard and get you a little teary, but in the best way, Like she's able to write stories to go quite straight to the heart of some core human experience really really quickly. And what I love about that book for someone who's been in a reading slump or someone who hasn't read in a long time, is it's a short book to begin with, so you could read the whole thing start to finish and feel like you accomplish something. But also you can sit down and read a whole story in three minutes. Literally the short ones will take you twelve or the longer. The longer Wins will take you twelve. Fest and Finney. I asked doctor Google here, give me that funny because I type for that. I typed in heating and cooling, and I got, like my local HVAC company, No, I actually don't need my furnace service. I was looking for a book, but okay, so that's a good one for that. So heating and Cooling fifty two micro memoirs. So we've got people who are, oh, that sounds so cool. I like the idea of it being sort of just based on her life. I like unremarkable tales told in a you know, very interesting your notable ways. And you mentioned something about reading in the waiting room there, and I know now you read books for a living, which is just completely awesome. But when you were starting this out, and when I think we started reading your blog many years ago, I mean you were working at an actual company, like you had a job, and you have a job job, and you were homeschooling your four children as well. So when did you read during that time? Well, I didn't read. You know, it's possible I read more the thing about that life then, because that's not I'm not homeschooling anymore. My kids are in school full time, and now I'm not. I work in my home office in the room adjacent to my bedroom. So it is a different life now. But reading has always been my favorite escape, my introvert coping mechanism of choice, my way to relax. So, especially with a life like that, I needed some time to myself in my own head. Reading was wonderful for that. So I'd read during that time. I'd read back when my kids went to bed at seven thirty. I just can't imagine now, but there was a time when that happened, and so I could read for two hours some nights after they went to bed. I could read in the morning, and then in those minutes where you're waiting for the water to boil, or you're waiting for the repairman to show up, or you're really in the doctor. I spent a lot of time in pediatricians doctor's offices back then, and so you're in the waiting room, and those eight minutes here, ten minutes there, they really add up, they do, and I mean they sort of literally now that I read a lot of stuff on the kindle app because it shows you how much time you have left in the book. And so it's just a matter of math that, like, you know, forty eight minutes segments, there's three hundred and twenty minutes, which is you know, if you've got a three and a half hour book that about covers it, and Laura, you're you're like an amazing success story in someone who didn't useful. I don't know about success, but seems successful to me. Didn't used to read that much and then and then ramped it up there. Yeah, it was. It was an interesting I mean, partly it's the phase of life thing. I mean, and you probably appreciate this too, that when you're little, your youngest child is older than two, time starts opening up a little bit more. Oh, it's so different because I do get asked a lot like how do you do what you do? And I'm doing a little too much. But still, like the age of my youngest child has made a world of difference. So there's just such a huge difference between having a two year old in the family and now my young is the seven and that's just an entirely different lifestyle. But then again, I'm not pinned to the couch breastfeeding like six times a day like I was when I had newborns. Every time I had a teeny tiny baby, I did read a ton, just because this was before there was an iPhone and I'd just be, you know, pinned to the couch, stuck and I didn't we didn't have a TV in the room. I don't know. I've never been a daytime TV watcher, so it was I got a ton of reading done during that season, yeah, those four seasons, those four seasons. Yeah, well, and but for me it was more I mean what you talked about that you could get that even if it wasn't two hours at night. Let's say your kids were going to bed more like eight thirty or nine. You might have an hour to read after they go to bed if you chose to do that, or you know, thirty minutes somewhere else during the day. And this time does add up, like if you read for an hour a day, seven days a week, if you read, you know, fifty sixty pages an hour, that gives you three hundred and fifty pages a week. I mean, you can get through a lot of books in a week. Then, I mean like a book a week, it'd be four books a month. And I had that realization when I tracked my time and I realized that I had read for three hundred and twenty seven hours during a particular year that I tracked, And that sounds pretty good, like it's almost an hour a day, but so much of it was just junk, like it was you know, random newspaper articles, random magazine articles like that I didn't really care about. And I saw that numbers like, well, what if I put that against actual real books? And so that was really the big decision that got me reading a lot more year. For any of our listeners who are sort of in that position, who are reading some but would like to read more, I mean, how do you scale that time up? I mean, what are some good strategies for making it a little bit more of what you do with your leisure time. Well, I think the best strategy is to find something you actually want to read. As you know, you've talked and written about this very eloquently, Laura, some readers will read no matter what, and to a large extent, I'm one of those readers, and a lot of our modern Missus Darcy people are. But even I read more when I have a book I'm really excited about reading, or whole stack of them. Like, reading looks a lot more desirable than other things if I'm excited about the books that are awaiting me, and other than that, when I've been in low reading seasons and I've wanted to I mean, when my time has been occupied and I've wanted to wedge more in. Some people read first thing in the morning, though I've never really been one of those. I had a podcast guest last week who said that to get reading in he has a toddler in a busy season. He said that he wakes up and he reads before his feet hit the floor, like some people check their Instagram account. And I'll read during meal times if I'm by myself, Like I won't read during lunch with my kids at the table unless there unless it's a Saturday afternoon and everybody's like doing homework or reading magazines than I might. But otherwise, if it's just me, I can read during lunch. And I really can't say enough about those small moments that feel insignificant. They really add up, and you may need to choose with care what you're reading in those moments. That might not be the time to read like Warren Piece, because that doesn't really work three paragraphs at a time, which I believe that this is the thing. I honestly Warren Piece. The chapters are really short. It has that I wouldn't know micro micro memoirs me that you just recommend it, not that you know, take a little bit more to get through this than that. But the chapters are literally like two pages, and so there are hundreds of them. But they're two pages, and so you get to feel like, hey, I could read through a chapter in Tolstoy, like while I'm waiting for this phone call to start. Yes, well, that's a great example of found moments. And also a lot of people if you're traveling, if you're a commuter, I love audiobooks. Not everybody does. But if you're a podcast listener and you started working some audiobooks into the routine as well, you already know how to use that audio format. That's another way to get it in. You can listen while running, you can listen while walking the dog. I love personally for the travel side of things, like going through a novel while I'm on the plane is the best. It gets the time down and I never have that uninterrupted time at any other time. And I know some people can work really well on planes, but I'm not one of them. But having a great book is like the best companion. Yeah, that's exactly true. And so you know, given that we have the ultimate book recommender on the podcast, So let's say we are you are a reader who's reading some and wants to read more. You want to tackle something a little bit more ambitious, doesn't have to be warm peace. You have any rec commendations for somebody who's looking to add a more ambitious book to their to be read list. You know, it's really interesting that you're asking this. We did a reading challenge on Modern Missus Darcy last year or I guess it's still this year, and we had two different categories. We had one set of books to read, like twelve categories for people who wanted to put the oomph back in their reading life, who were reading was kind of a drag or not something they were doing and they just wanted it to be fun again. And then we had some people who chose to read for personal growth, like to really go deeper with their book picks. And these were like read a book in translation, read a National Book Award winner, that kind of thing. Reading for fun, you're reading like a celebrity memoir. They were different categories. But what we heard from readers, which I was really surprised, is that the readers who chose to do both categories, who took on twenty four books instead of just the twelve, were all more satisfied with the books they'd chosen. It will not all, but many were more satisfied with the books they'd chosen and the reading for growth instead of they're reading for fun. And that was the opposite of what I expected. And it really made me wonder about what we choose to read and why, and where we get it right and where we get it wrong. And we just discovered this yesterday, so I'm still very much processing it, but that is something I didn't expect, and it does have me thinking, like, if we want to read because it's fun, it can still be fun even if we're picking up a book that's heavy. I'm just thinking out loud, I'm still working through this. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean I think that's fascinating. And I will say that I've picked up some of your recommendations and thought, oh, this is a little dense in the beginning, and then found them to be some of my absolute favorites. So that actually does make some sense to me. People like a challenge, right, I mean, it's you know, there's different kinds of fun. There's effortless fun and there's effort full fun and the effort they both have their place, but it's always easy in life to over invest in the effortless fun, precisely because it doesn't take any effort, but it tends to be the stuff that takes a little bit more work that we feel best about later on. And you had a category and that would like read a book that's over six hundred pages, right, that was I mean, that was something that a lot of people have not done but would be a good way to challenge yourself. You nailed it, Laura. And I'm trying to remember some of the ones that did you wind up reading through on any of them that you hadn't read yet that you were a really long one? Yeah? Yes, I read Wally Lamb's Oh what's it called? It's the one about the twins. I know this much is true, and I I mean it's almost a thousand pages. It takes for ever to set up the story, it goes in a million different directions, and it had one of the best endings I've read in recent years. So I was really glad I did. I'm not a huge stranger to long books, like I'm pretty sure I've read others that were about that long, but that's the one I wanted to actually like write in the blank on my sheet because I really loved it. For other readers who want a challenge, Oh, that's tricky because it kind of depends on what you're like. But I always, I always think it's fun to read those books that are being talked about, like as part of a larger cultural conversation, like Saying Unburied. Saying just won the National Book Award, so that could be an interesting one to pick up because other people are talking about it. I really enjoyed the new louise Erdrich Future Home of the Living God, which really reminded me of The Handmaid's Tale, with a little bit of the passage thrown in interesting, a little bit dark and broody, but not inaccessible to someone who doesn't read a ton. It did remind me of The Handmaid's Tale, which would be a great That's a classic that has been talked about a lot recently in the cultural conversation because it's Margaret Atwood and that I mean, she never goes out of style. But I just read that recently for the first time because it was one of those books that I'd never read, and it did feel really satisfying in an effortful, fun kind of way. To cross it off the list, you know, the kind of books that I really gravitate towards. Are the reflective, well crafted but not too wordy literary fiction, like I really like Wallace Stegner, Wendell Berry, Marilyn Robinson, and they all happen to be Award winners. That I just read Crossing to Safety on your recommendation, and I loved it. I was reading it at like three in the morning too, because for some reason I couldn't sleep and it was perfect books for three am its own category. You should do a list of those, and it totally could be I may steal that. I love that book. I'm glad you liked it. But yeah, so all the authors I just mentioned are great in that category. And then I also really like Chris Cleeve. Everyone braves forgiven this year. This Is How It Always Is by Lori Frankel was one of my favorite stories about a quirky, endearing family, but who's going through a hard thing before we visit The Goddess by Teacher of Banerja Devakaruni was one of my favorites from last year. That was a novel told in short stories, so it was really easy to read a little bit at a time, not that I did. I think I read this in the course of one evening because I didn't really like the cover, but I wanted to vet it for the Summer Reading Guide, so I sat down at the kitchen counter and it's like, I'm just going to give it a try so I can say I did. And I don't think I got back up until I finished that book because it was short. But those are all books that go in different directions and have different tones, but all have really well drawn characters or real depth to them. They're talking about important things that matter to humans, not just to individual people, books that we can really resonate with on a personal level. And that's one of the big reasons I read. I think that's what makes it satisfying for so many people. So let's talk about when the book reading is not satisfying. When is it okay to abandon a book. You know, there's some people who Sarah and I are both we upholders. We like to, you know, follow the rules. It could be hard to abandon a book on Yeah. I really do actually struggle with that, and I know I need to do it more because of what you said before, which is if you have I'm one of those like vacuum films, like I don't know the type of reader that needs an excellent book and then I'm reading all the time, and then if I'm not, then I'm very very stalled. Versus Laura who and you, who I think are just like going to read no matter what. So yes, talk to me about abandoning books. I need this. I am also an upholder in this book. Abandoning thing was something I came to over. Yeah, I mean there was a time when I realized, oh, I could stop, it would be fine. People have their own rules, Like when we've talked about this in Modern Missus Darcy Land, people have said that they call their personal rule the giver rule. They will give a book sixty pages because that's how long it took for the giver a book that they ended up loving to get good. I've heard one hundred pages minus your age as a guideline. Some people give a book fifty pages. Something that really helps me now and may help others even if they're not in the same place, is I'm reading books for a variety of different reasons. So we're about to start reading all these summer reading guide titles, and I know that most of your listeners are not putting together. Some are reading guide but I still think like the specific instance can help you think through like why are you reading. We'll read a lot of books that the royal. We will read a lot of books that might seem interesting and you know, perfectly readable and like something I want to read, but are not right for the purpose I'm reading it for at the time. So instead of abandoning it forever and casting it aside and you know, taking it to goodwill, I can just set it aside and be like, you know what that might be for me, but it's not for me right now, and that's fine. So that is something that's really helped me. There are some books that I that I have started reading. I'm like, you know what, that's not going to be for me. I just started reading Jennifer Egan's A Visit to the Goon Squad because I've been meaning to read it for years, and I checked it out of the library and I read eighty pages. I'm like, you know what, I don't know that this is the book for me. I have so much to read. Maybe I'll feel differently in ten years, but there's so much to read. I don't feel like this is for me. I'm not comfortable with a couple of the themes. Personally. Maybe it's just the timing, but this is going back and I'm going to move on, And it's not like I've decided I'm never going to read that book ever in my life. But telling myself there's a difference between forever and right now has been really helpful in getting over that upholder instinct to keep going because it's a commitment that you started and you have to follow through because that's the kind of person you are. And that's why I was before, Oh, so interesting. You've never thought of framing it that way, as in, not, oh, I'm putting this down a give up, but oh well, we're just going to stop for now and then reassess. I like that future Sarah might want to pick it up someday. That's very Sarah is also really like fantasizing about the twenty eighteen you know, your picks, the twenty four picks. I'm like, that sounds very challenging and exciting. So cool. Sarah gets to that one. Yes, in the midst of having your newborn, right, yeah, that's what she said on the couch reading a book. I like it so and I've I've sort of had this fantasy about joining a book club, and I never have. I think for reasons that I'd probably be a really bad book club member. But Sarah's in one makes what makes a good book club? Like? If somebody is setting up a book club or looking to join one, like, what is a sign of a really good book club? Ooh, that's a good question, because I have been I'm not currently in a real life, in person book club, but I've been in plenty before and I've gone to meetings and I've taken my book and we've all sat in a circle and gone I liked it. I liked it too, And that's just no good. Yeah, for a a book club, you want something with lots to discuss. Well, First of all, the ending, any kind of ambiguous ending, left turn ending, Those are really interesting to talk about, where you can decide what happens next. Did you like it? Did you didn't? Any kind of polarizing book might make you crazy reading reviews on the internet, but it's so much, too, so much fun to talk about in person. Any kind of book that some people love and some people hated makes for a really great discussion. A lot of book clubbers have said that their favorite book club meetings and their favorite book club books have not existed in the same space, so you can have a great discussion even if you don't love the book, or if you do love the book and other people hate it, that's especially fun. Unlikable characters can be a lot more fun as a reader if you can pick them apart with your fellow book clubs. And also characters making big decisions, characters put in impossible situations, characters facing very relatable struggles, those can all be good fodder for book club discussion. So you think it's mostly about the selection of the right books, I think that makes sense. Well, Pard to that. I'm sure asking good questions is also important, but it's a lot easier for the conversation to start itself if you pick a book that isn't currently discussable. Yeah, that makes sense. Actually, you're right. I feel like the conversations have flowed the best where I've gone in hating the book, and then some other people unexpectedly really like it who I expected to dislike it, and you write it naturally, it naturally goes to Sarah. What's the example of that for you? Oh, well, we read Loner. Oh my gosh, I don't have the author at hand, but it is about a very creepy college student. And actually the author happened to know the host of the book club, so we ended up getting the author on the phone. So that was pretty exciting, and we had to kind of talk about the book before because some people we had the author on the phone. But it was a very interesting book and Teddy Wayne is the author. Polarizing, interesting and with a very very horrible main character. So it fits a lot of those things that Anne just mentioned. And that was a great book club pick that I didn't necessarily expect it to be because I didn't necessarily love reading the book, but it was a fascinating book and it was well and even though it was kind of gross. So, speaking of the writing side of things, Anne is a published author. She has two boks out, but the one that most recently came out, called Reading People, is about looking at the various personality frameworks and how they affect our relationships with others. I got to say, my favorite part of that, Anne, was when you talked about the various literary characters who meet each kind of the Meyers Briggs personality framework. So I'm an I INTJ, so I guess we're the I don't know if it was mister Darcy or something like that. I'm forgetting this. But how as being on the author side of books and book publishing changed how you read and how you interact with the books that get sent to you, Well, I read less the month before the book came out and the month after the book came out than I think I read in my entire life as a reader. So that made a big difference just being so busy. And also I had this was a rookie mistake, but I had a book deadline for an essay collection coming out next fall four days before Reading People came out, So I didn't realize how ridiculous that was when I signed that contract. But that did terrible things for my reading life. So I thought that was really ironic that becoming an author means you read less. Yes, so I've you know, I've bounced back now, I've had plenty of time to get back in my introvert, happy reading space. But yeah, that really surprised me. It's been really interesting to see how the publicity side works. Like I thought, I thought I knew, but I knew just enough to be dangerous. I think about about all that, and I'm still learning very much. I mean, this is only my first book, so I will keep learning how all that works. It has changed a little bit the way I interact with the books that I see online. Like in like, I was so excited to be on one of Bustle's lists of like, oh, twenty amazing memoirs, not memoirs, but non fiction to add to your to be read list, And so I was between like Hillary Clinton and some other big deal person coming at this fall. I'm like, oh, this is amazing. But it also made me realize that all those lists I like to read online are just publicists emailing each other. That's kind of depressing. Well, it has to come from somewhere. True. It does quite an honor, it does. And you know, there were more than twenty books coming up this fall, so my fellow authors are being like, they didn't have to include it, like they you know they did. It does mean something like yeah, but it does make me a little bit cynical. It has, I don't know, like it's been a little bit different, but not very because I've been doing vetting a lot of books, getting sent to a lot of books, is a bookish enthusiast, which is not that that different from doing it as an author. For a while now, it's been a little bit different, and I definitely, I definitely am feeling a lot more kind hearted to the books that come to my house, like, oh, that poor author. This is hard work, isn't it. It's hard. But even if the book isn't very good, you know, there's still a lot of work that went into it. Yeah. I mean, you can't can't recommend something you don't like. But on the other hand, I just just knowing what goes into it, the year's effort, and yeah, to have all those books just going out in envelopes, landing on people's doorsteps and hoping they open them. Yeah, it does change things. Wow. So we're going to hit you up for one more recommendation, and which is that? So Sarah is going on maternity leave and for the next three months, maybe Sarah, you can tell her what you're looking for for that time. Yeah, I want something, Well, I don't know I would. I'm open to a lot of things, and I will tell you that I'm sure I will get plenty of recommendations from your podcast in your blog anyway. But if I give you, like a few random things that I've liked that you've recommended, you can give me another one. Okay, you're ready. Americana, I read this year, love it. I mentioned Crossing to Safety, Laura had mentioned before. I have a guilty pleasure. I loved the Kevin Kwan Crazy Rich Asians series, and I'm super excited that it's going to be a movie. I like some Leanne moriarty. I mean, that's fun stuff. What Alex Forgot is probably my favorite. I don't tend to get into nonfiction as much. It's funny, Like once in a while there'll be a topic that I really like, Like I really liked Deep Work by call Newport, but I I just it's one of those where I'll start a nonfiction because I love the idea, and then I just sort of peter out. So yeah, if you have a juicy novel or a you know, a medium ambitious one for me that you think would be great media pod, I always love it. Yeah, okay, yeah, because those do all hit serious themes. I have not read the Crazy rich Asians trilogy, but I get the impression pretty good, snarky, funny. I don't I don't know, describe it for me, Uh, kind of fantastical. I mean it puts you in another world. It's totally snarky. It's got a million pop culture references, but it's actually decently written. And I will say I have a little bit of like an I don't know. I think Asian culture is really fascinating. I used to read a ton of Miurakami that's more Japan, and this one's more China and some other countries. But yeah, that one hit a nerve. I mean, I would like devour them. They're they're they're sort of candy. Okay, I'm wondering about this would be a great book club book, but it doesn't mean you love it. But I'm wondering about I'm Glad About You by Teresa Repik, especially because it's described as having a crazy Rich Asians element. I think they said, like it's crazy, the humor of crazy rich Asians meets like the wistful tone of beautiful Ruins. So interesting make it because it's about it's about two kids who fall in love I think in high school, although it might go back longer. So they're like the loves of each other's lives. They think but he wants to be a pediatrician. Sarah and she and so they go their separate ways, but there's still this die between them and basically they know they're right for each other, but real life intervenes and then it gets messy and they make bad choices. So that sounds great. I really didn't like the ending, but I have friends that did and that so if you, if you fall on especially the dislike side of the spectrum, talk to somebody into reading this book too, so you can talk about it with them. But I think that might be fo or maybe book. Maybe it's a good book. Yeah, awesome, Thank you so much. And oh, let me think what else? If you love Crossing The Safety Angel of Repose is my next favorite Wallace Stegner might take a little bit to get into. It goes back and forth in time between a current contemporary I mean contemporary when Stagner was writing, a contemporary writer researching the lives of his grandparents. So it goes back and forth and time between this writer living his life right now, dealing with his own issues, and embarking on this research project because he feels like he needs to uncover what happened in their story. Because something seemed tragic to him and he wanted to know what actually happened back then, so he imagines what their story was, and then you come back to the present day. So that present day story does help get you oriented before you're plunge back in time. But the backstory really reminded me of a book I know Laura's read, A Clearing the Distance by Vittel Ribsinski. The way he talks about New York City at the time that Frederick law Olmsted was a young up and comer trying to find his way, it just reminded me very much of that era. And yeah, it's six hundred pages, so it's no small small thing to embark on, but it's so good. A shorter one I really like by him is The Spectator Bird. And then I'm trying to think of something that's more in the Leon Moriarty spectrum. Yeah, for when the kids are, you know, the babies not sleeping at all and I need some But no, Actually, that Stegner sounds great too, and it reminds me of crossing a safety And then he obviously really likes to examine that brightly life. He enjoys that quite a bit I did really like this is how It Always is, which is a little bit more serious, and I believe there's a physician. I mean, not that you need to read books about doctors, but I believe there's a physician in there, if I'm remembering correctly, who does play an important role in like the last third of the book. Cool. No, it is sometimes fun to kind of see that world entered, like I loved Small Great Things because you know, it was in a hospital and there was babies, and I was picturing it kind of being in that so awesome. Well, I've written all of those down. I'm super excited. It's fantastic, although I should probably say the flip side of that is that this is how it always is. The title comes from a conversation between two parents saying, we are facing this impossible situation. We have no idea what our kid needs. We don't know what's right for them. We could totally screw this up in a really bad way and ruin their lives forever. But this is how it always is. You never have all the information you need, so let's just do the best we know with what we have right now. So, if you're sitting on the couch, maybe feeling postpartum strong emotions, reading about impossible things that happen to parents. I just want you to know what you're getting. But it's so good, You're so good. I think wallowing might actually be sort of healthy. So I like that idea so well. And so we always end up our main segments with our love of the week, and we're hoping we can keep you on for a love of the week. So mine this week is buying books in general. I recently just told you I was spent at the school book fair at my kids elementary school, I'll have their scholastic book fair, and I will admit that I sent you going today, sent in quite a bit of money with each of them that they could buy books, because I like the idea of them choosing their books and reading it. And I will draw a tough line on buying toys, like I don't buy toys randomly at all, but if a kid asked for books, I'll pretty much always get it. So yeah, it's one way to increase the amount of reading is just to have more books around. Sarah, what's on your list this week? On my list? And I'm going to stay thematic with this one is that I never ever kept track of the books I read before, which is odd because I am, as all listeners know, kind of love to track stuff. But in twenty seventeen, I did manage to write down every book I read, and I read just about twenty. Maybe I'll be up to twenty two or so by the end of the year. And it's so cool to actually be able to look at oh, like, this is what I read, and this is what I liked. And next year maybe I'll try for twenty four, twenty six something like that. So yeah, I love that I finally kept trying. Nan. What do you have this week? Oh, a planning thing. I know. I love planning things. I am at the point of the year where I'm thinking about my systems and what I want to reboot for the new year. And I just ordered this large personal monthly planner that is a blank monthly calendar. At the top, it just has the days of the week and then you have to fill in the dates. But I have put this on my wall so I can see a whole quarter at a time. And really, I didn't think I was a visual person for a long time, because I don't really care that much about pictures, but I need to see the words in the dates and where they all fall. And I am so excited that now I can see this all instead of scrolling up and down and up and down on Google Calendar or flipping back and forth and back and forth in my planner, I can see three months ago. It's making me really really happy. And it costs like ten bucks. That is awesome. I actually have something similar like to that, even though I am a devoted planner user at work. I have that have like the months tacked up on top on the top part of my desk and I have to see it's exactly what I have to see it visually because to see how the pieces fit together, that's so cool. I love your Love of the Week well, and thank you so much for coming on. We really appreciate it, and all our listeners please go check out Modern Message Darcy on the web, the what Should I Read Next? Podcast, and Ann's book Reading People, which was out this fall. It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me all right. So for our Q and A segment today, we have a seasonal question that came from a listener who wanted to know what ideas we had for the holiday gift season this year, so I've had to plan kind of ahead this year because of my impending child. And as of now, it's you know, as we record this right now, it's the end of November, but I've already sent Josh a list and am sort of prepared to do my click shopping. So I do have this kind of fresh on my mind. You know, Hanekah's earlier than Christmas. Hanka is way earlier. Don't even remember what day it starts, but it's something like, I think it's right around my due date. My du date's the ninth, and I think it's maybe the eleventh. So I need to be prepared in this in this context. But so I was gonna say, Laura is not as much of a she doesn't worry about clutter as much as I do. But I hate it. I don't have a huge house. I just can't stand picking up all the time. I love throwing stuff out. Again, things may evolve as my kids get older and have more autonomy over their own stuff, but right now, you know, one of the things I think about when I'm buying is like, how can I buy things that are going to be really fun but not take over the house. So Cameron's really into puzzles, so we're going to do that. My husband is determined to buy them both ukulelees. So I don't know where that came from. Well, he's into the ukulele himself, and he has shown me videos of little prodigies and I'm like, well that's not our children, but okay, So they're gonna get instruments and he's gonna try to teach them some chords. Annabel's big gift maybe from the American Girl Catalog, although I haven't totally committed. We're going to get a lot of craft sets because I imagine I'm going to want to keep them occupied sometimes, you know, while I'm nursing or doing stuff for the baby. So stuff where they can sit down and do them over the winter. And again, since it's Hanukah, you need a lot of books, but not a lot of books, a lot of gifts. But some of them are going to be just very practical, Like they both need new shoes, so that's going to be, you know, one of one of the fillers. And then we'll definitely buy a bunch of books. What about you, guys. Yeah, I think there's going to be a lot of books, just because it's the kind of thing that I feel good about buying. And then if they have more books, they will read more books. It's the whole supply thing going on. But I think it's mostly just been about kind of paying attention to what the kids like during the course of the year. You know. So my daughter and I went to the American Girls Place in New York a couple months ago, and I saw one thing that she liked that she didn't then get. She had, you know, a limit of what she was allowed to ask for while you're in the place, so she chose something else. But I've kept in mind, like, oh, what was the runner up? So she might like that. We are probably for the little guy. We'll probably get some more Thomas the tank engine trains, And it seems always like a waste because it's the last kid, you know, and so let's buying all this capital in the form of trains. We have some, but they've lasted through all of the kids, so I think they're really great. So I know that I will be able to give them to somebody else, probably in a couple of years, and so that's a nice thing to be able to buy something that will last. There will be video games, because there's always video games. But one thing I'm also trying to think of this year is experiential gifts, because that when you get to the older kids, they don't go as much for the toys anymore, Like they don't play with toys all that much, the ten year old, hardly at all, the eight year old some so thinking about, well, what would they like to do and be, you know, tickets to a sports game or even something like staying in a hotel overnight is just the height of craziness for them, Like they don't do that all that often, So you know, taking them on a one night trip somewhere else on the East Coast for instance, it'll be pretty exciting. So we're trying to think of stuff like that, and in general, you know, experiences are really fun for kids. Little kids, they do need a lot of stuff under the tree or with whatever you do for other gift giving faith traditions. But you know, thinking about having a few things for that and then a few things that cannot spread out the fun over the next couple of weeks or months can actually be a great way to get through winter as well. Yeah, I love the experiential idea. I can't wait till my kids are old enough to think about the sort of trips. We're not quite in that phase yet, but your older ones certainly are, so that's fantastic. Yeah. Well, this has been Best of Both Worlds Episode nineteen. We've been talking all things books and tune in next week for more on making work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on instant and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the Best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.