Portrait of a Lady on Fire with Chloe Cunha

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women and um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef in best start changing it with the Bedel cast. Bonjeur, Okay, that was gonna be my one as well, Yeah, Jael, Kathleen. And that's the extent of the French that I know. I know. I was in French club in third grade and I learned how to count to ten, and then that's about it. I don't know if I dare not go further. Um so that we're fluent in French, as you can tell, extremely fluent. Welcome to the Beachdel Cast. My name is, My name is uh Kathleen, Jemmapel, Jamie Loff. Know what the French pronunciation would be, Kaitly. We should paint each other. I mean this movie, I mean, this joke has been made before, I'm sure, but this movie really gives new meaning to the phrase draw me like one of your French girls. Wow, there it is there, it is. This is our podcast though, it's the Bechtel Cast, and this is a today recovering a movie that has been requested. I want to say, conservatively five million times everyone at least on this episode and here it is here it finally is everybody. This is our podcast in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point, that, of course, being a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel. This is one of those movies where the origins of the Bechtel test really come into play because perhaps a little known fact, although we've mentioned it many times on the pod Test in the past, is that the context in which the Bechtel Test happens in Alison Bechtel's Dikes to Watch Out For that was published in is that her characters are basically looking at movies to see if women ever talked to each other about something other than a man, because if they don't, the characters in the comic can ship the characters in the movie that they're watching, ship them together and pretend that they are queer women in love. So the context of the comic makes it all the better. If you haven't read I I like just recently read through like the whole collection of Dikes to Watch Out For and it's it's so good. It's so good. It's uh, some of the best world building in the entire comics planet. And they and they're always like the characters in that series are always going to movies. They're always giving the hottest take that hold up extremely well thirty years later. Nice. Yeah hell yeah. So. Our version of the vector test, as it's evolved over the years, is that two people of any marginalized gender have names speak to each other about something other than a man, and ideally their conversation is like plot relevant or significant narratively in some way. We're not going to have a problem today. Today's start. Today, we're gonna be a okay because we're covering Portrait of a Lady on Fire. Uh yeah again, it's a movie we've gotten an incredible number of requests for and the time is now, and we have an incredible guest to cover this movie with us. We certainly do. She is a comedian, actor, a writer whose work has been featured in Reductress, Off mag and Plot Twist. It's Chloe Kunya. Hello, welcome here. Yeah, this is exciting. It was very hard not to say something during the Yeah, if you if you have any French that you'd like to teach us any any Yeah. Yeah, I thought about it and I think, um, so, I think it would be Kathleen Durrant, all right. You just we don't like to just not pronounce letters a lot, so that at the end we'd be like no and we're not going to do it. And then I think it would be Jami Nice. That's better. Yeah, you just get a little little natal, little nasal energy in there, and you think that's basically French. Yeah, I love it. Bonjem, Bje Kleine, Yeah, you got it. You're crushing it already, Bje, bonjour, Chloe. Um, so, thank you for being here, Thanks for having me excited to chat with you about Portrait of a Lady on Hire. What's your your relationship, your history with this film? Yes, so so obviously I heard about it because it was making huge waves that can um and everybody was like it's gay and it's great. Um So I was excited about it. But interestingly enough, I had seen another of the same director's movies before and I didn't like that one, so I didn't like the one i'd seen, so I was kind of like, okay, well, just because I didn't like that one. Um, doesn't mean that I won't like this one, And so I went to see it in theaters. Um. This was I know. We were when we were emailing, we were talking about, oh, this may have been one of the last for me. I think this was the before last movie I saw in theaters. Um with at the time my girlfriend. We have since split up. Um, so very fascinating to watch the movie again with that, With that perspective, I'm like, oh, no, it's fine and true. Um, your women fashion, we're friends. Um, so you know we're staying friends because what are you gonna do? Um. But but it was interesting to watch it again with that context because I watched it again last night. Um and uh yeah, so I remember the first time I watched it. I really loved it. It was, you know, very touching, good movie that I enjoyed quite a lot. And it was fun to watch it again, except again, slightly different personal context for me as I watched it. Um. But yeah, that's basically the long and the short of my relationship with it. Yeah, very nice, Jamie, what about you? I'm sorry me. My My experience of this movie is it was my last movie I saw in the before times. I saw it, I think like the week before shutdowns. I saw it in an A m C. I got some of that like freaky macaroni they have at the A m C. So I was like, it was like a Tuesday night. It was very I no regrets. I'm glad. I'm glad I did it. I went alone on a Tuesday night, cried my eyes out ate a bowl of disgusting macaroni. I didn't even know they had macaroni. I'm sorry. Nancy's are really stepping it up. And well, I mean maybe not in equality, but they're maybe not in the macaroni department, but they have like flatbreads and they have like gourmet sandwiches. Now, I mean in the before time, maybe not that. Maybe they were really I don't know what they were going for, but it was interesting, you know. I and I liked the movie when I first saw it. I do remember as I was leaving, being like, I wish the women in this movie walked a little faster. It was everyone's walking so slow. The whole movie fast walking hadn't been invented yet. Oh yeah, very deliberate time because everyone is walking like three steps an hour. I mean, they've got there. They're wearing such like heavy there's so many layers of fabric. I mean, can you imagine trying to walk with all of those? Me and twenty twenty with my Macaroni, I was like, we gotta speed it up, ladies, we gotta we gotta get to where we're going. But I really liked the movie, and it was felt a little long the first time I saw it, but it was it was cool to watch back for this show. I feel like it's it's absolutely like ideal for our show. So it was it was fun to watch with my Bettel goggles on, certainly what about You. I also saw it in theaters. It got a wide US release, I think February fourteen, So it's like Valentine's Day. Everyone's feeling romantic. Everyone's horned up, you know, you go to see this romantic movie. I think I saw it. I saw it with JT in Boston because we were I think the two both of us were in Boston at that time because we did a show. Yeah, so I saw it, and I remember thinking, this is a beautifully shot movie that is touching and is a half hour longer than it needs to be, So I'll come out and say I think this movie is boring. It's there's there's always one person that's like, it's it's boring. So I understand. I think it has everything to do with the editing. There's so many shots that just go on way longer than they and I'm like, I don't know, I'm like a spoiled like American movie. Everything's quick and snappy, and the editing is tight, and I'm just like used to that type of movies. So I and I'm also just a very impatient person. So I'm like, why is this shot twenty seconds when it could have been ten? You know? So they're lingering so much, it's it's into me. There's so much looking. I don't I don't mind the looking, but they should walk faster. They should look faster, and they should walk faster, you know, at least one of them one or the other, if not both. Um. Yeah, So, I I mean, I think it's a beautifully crafted movie. I teach it in my screenwriting classes, like it's especially to use it as an example of like a very character driven sort of slice of life narrative. But yeah, I was, I was like, this could be shorter. Anyway, Um, should we should we just dive into the recap and then go from there. Let's swim right in? Can we swim? I don't know yet? Don't we go? I love when dialogue, especially in a movie like this, where you're just like so sucked into it, where it's like, oh, everything is a metaphor everything everything. I noted there are so many times where they're talking about painting, But are they talking about painting or sex? Return your gaze? Are you comfortable right? I'm uncomfortable now, but in a pleasant way. Very horny. It's so horny. It's you know, it's our people. The French people were very horny people. What can I say? It's part of our thing. Okay, So we're in France. I believe it is the eighteenth century. It's the seventeen hundreds, question mark late eighteenth century? Is this post French Revolution? Do we know? Oh, it's gotta be yeah, definitely, I think I believe, Like, oh, no, I don't know anything. I realized I don't know exactly what time it is either. I probably should have looked that up, but I assumed it was like eighteen twenties, maybe because is because of the art and like because it's before the Impressionists. I was also a art history minor, so I didn't even mention that before. Yeah, I know a little bit about art as well, but I assumed it was like beginning eighteen hundreds. But I don't know. I could be wrong. It's saying end of the eighteenth century and I just bravely googled it. And the French Revolution was at the end of the eighteen century, so maybe it's during we I don't know where to seventeen ninety nine, okay, Yeah, the movie doesn't make it clear what year the movie is taking place in, so yeah, that's confusing. Yeah, it's I I wonder. I'm sure that Selei and Siama like knows, but I am so ignorant of so much history that I was like old dresses. Okay, Okay, I get it, I get it right exactly. Okay. So then we open on Marianne. I'm just maybe not going to try to do French, okay, Okay, great, And she is played by and I will also need help with the actor's name. Yeah, is it know? Is that who that is trying to remember? Now? I should name me Marlan um knowing me knowing me, knowing me, Marlan, is that right? Yeah? I mean yeah, that's perfect. Actually it's great. Wow, we're learning. Um. So she is teaching art to girls at a school. One of her students asks about a painting something that marian had painted a long time ago, entitled Portrait of a Lady on Fire, and we're like, that's the name of the movie. I this is like baby getting ahead of ourselves a little bit. But we now that I know that. Like Celine Siama said in an interview with Vox with Emily vander Wert that she was really influenced by Titanic when making this movie. This framing device, You're like, wait, a second and intimate portrait that flashes to the past. I know this setup. We're just missing a necklace and and telling us how many years it's been, because that's a really important How many years has it been, Marianne, it's not definitely less than eighty four years? But or she looks great. She is eighty four years older and looks the exact same. Um. But anyway, so attention is called to a portrait of a lady on fire and it seems to stir up some intense memories and emotions for Marianne. Then we cut back to her arriving at a large estate on a remote island off the coast of mainland France. She has been commissioned by the lady of the house to paint a portrait of her daughter Eloise, to be sent to a nobleman from Milan who Eloise will soon be married to. Marian is greeted by a maid, Sophie, who tells her that Eloise is younger sister who was set to Mary I think the same Milanese nobleman she recently died, and that Eloise has returned after being at a convent for several years, so she now is being kind of set up to marry this same man. We also learn that Eloise does not know that marian is there to paint her portrait. She thinks marian is there to be her companion to go on walks very slow Slois companion. This is so like aristocracy, like gobbledcock. To me, I'm just like, oh, yeah, you're gonna hire someone and they have to like go in a boat so that they can go on a really slow walk with you. As a career, You're like, are you talking about honestly, sign me up. Sounds like a good deal. Like they're like, oh, there's this rich lady. She's a little sad, she's a little brooding, and she just needs to want you to like go across the country to walk with her, maybe fall in love with her too. I don't know, you don't up to you. Whatever happens, maybe a torret affair, we'll see how we feel. A couple of couple of horny sketches. Um you want to try. Yeah. So, because Eloise doesn't know that she's being painted, it means that Marian will have to kind of study her and paint her in secret without being able to look at Eloise. Well she's painting. And the reason for all of this is because Eloise refuses this impending marriage, so she refuses to pose for any painting. Then Marian meets Eloise, they go on their first slow walk, although that one fast. They're running at first, they do rush printing. It starts, it's a it's definitely they get your hopes up at the beginning. I was like, oh, they're going to speed it up, but then it just gets slower and slower and slower. Maybe they just retired the rest of the movie because they like, that was our one exercise for the two weeks, right, because the whole movie is in like two weeks. Yeah, it's it's pretty short, fat. Yeah. They go on their first walk. She's studying Eloise. She starts to like sketch and paint her. They continue to go on walks. They get to know each other a little bit. They chat about their pasts and futures. They seem to maybe be vibing and it's so wild to see. This was like, it seems like we all saw this movie shortly before. We were all wearing masks all the time, and I was like, well, the scene with it, like all of a sudden, they're wearing masks and one of them is wearing it incorrectly because you can see her. No, I was like, Marianne under that mask. They are socially distancing though they're they're pretty far apart until they're not until they're not until they're kissing. Yeah, they're horny distancing. And then at one point Marianne plays Eloise on I think the harpsichord, Is that what that instrument is? And then I think what she's playing is Vivaldi's storm? Is that the name of that piece. As you can tell, I'm extremely uncultured and I know nothing. Uh yeah, I'm literally reading from Wikipedia. It's the Presto from Summer from Vivaldi's Four Seasons. Coo coo coo cool. It sounds smart when we say it, but you you'll hear it and you're like, oh that, yeah, I know that, right, Okay. So then Marian completes the portrait and wants to show Eloise and tell her the truth about why she's there, which she does, and Eloise feels betrayed, and then when she sees the painting, she's like, is this how you see me? So then Marian destroys it and begins painting another portrait, this time with Eloise agreeing to pose for her. Then Sophie the maid reveals that she is gregnant with a greg and they help her try to administer like an at home abortion um abortion montage. There's honestly, it's like, m he's like a nice time. There's running there, there's Sophie's run on the beach. Sophie knows how to keep it moving. She's got things to do, she's busy, you know, totally. Meanwhile, Marian and Eloise talk about love. Marianne keeps working on the portrait. They continue to vibe. They all read the Greek myths of Orpheus and another name I cannot Euridicity. Cool. They read that together, then they take Sophie too. Would this be like a midwife? I don't know what this lady's job is. Yeah, I think that the I don't know it's it's it's local female doctor, the local abortionist. I think it's a midwife because then later there's also a baby, which implies that she helped deliver the baby, right, I mean right right? Oh my god. When Sophie has to get an abortion while a baby is live, really looking at her, I was like cruel and unusual. Can we get the babies out of the room. I loved that because there's so many movies where like someone's about to go get an abortion, but they're like, oh no, I just remembered what a baby looks like. I can't have an abortion after all. Okay, the whole plot of Juno, so it was. I love that she saw a baby and was still like, no, give me an abortion because I don't want to have a child. And it wasn't like she was like out of a dislike of the baby. She was like, hi, baby, the baby was like comforting her almost Yeah, the baby was like Google, Yeah, I know. I actually really I liked it too because, um, for the reason that Caitlin gave, but also because it really further brought together like, hey, abortions aren't evil, Like this person also delivers babies. Sometimes you need to deliver a baby, and sometimes you need to just get rid of it. Um. And it sounds really bad when I put it that way, but but I really like that it's true. The movie is like, yeah, listen, this is just a normal thing, and it doesn't mean like he said, doesn't mean she hates babies. In fact, the baby was really cute and was just I liked. I liked it thematically, I guess just putting myself in her shoes. I just don't want a baby in the room while I'm getting an abortion. That's fair, Yeah, just for privacy purposes. Really, probably they want to get an abortion, like in the middle of a shack, Like there's a lot. It doesn't seem the most clean place, not very sterile, but it's that whole sequences is really interesting. Yeah, I agree, there's a lot to talk about their Yeah. Oh, so they take Sophie to the midwife to see if she's still pregnant, which she is, so she has to go back a few days later. But in the meantime, there's like a coven of him in who gather around a fire and sing and chant and it's like this beautiful, haunting, chanting melody, during which Eloise's dress briefly catches fire and it's the same image as the portrait of the lady on fire that we saw at the beginning. Then they returned to the estate and Marian and Eloise kiss, but then Eloise runs away and she's like, ah gay panics the last thirty seconds she's like, actually I'm fine. Yeah, because later that night they embrace again, they kiss, they presumably have sex, but the movie cuts away to the next morning, but they are like nude in bed together. Then they take Sophie to get her abortion, and later that night Marian paints her like a recreation of her getting the abortion. Marian and Eloise have sex again off screen. They also do drugs together. I don't know if that's supposed to be weed or what exactly. I don't know. It seems like they got too high for it to be weed. But it was also like administered via armpit, which is strange, like which if it was weed, you would think that, like because we see Marian with like smoking tobacco out of a pipe, so you think she could smoke it. But so, yeah, we don't. Who knows what drug that was? It's drug section. I just wrote France, question mark. I don't know. I don't know either of the time I've done drugs and France were not via armpits. So so then the portrait of Eloise is almost finished, which means that it's nearly time for her to be sent off to Milan to marry. Both women resent this, they argue, but then they up and spend one last day together, reflecting on memories that they've shared together. Marian draws little pictures, one of Eloise for Marian and then one of Marian for Eloise, and she does this on page twenty eight of a book. Uh The next morning, Eloise's mother has returned, and a man is there to collect Eloise and take her and the portrait to Milan. Marian and Eloise have to say a very like hurried goodbye, and then Marian leaves we cut two years later, Marian is at an art exhibit where she sees a painting of Eloise with a little girl presumably her daughter, where she's holding a book with page twenty eight exposed, you know, indicating that she still is in love with and still thinks about Marian. And then the movie ends with Marian going to a concert where the orchestra is playing the same Vivaldi Peace and Eloise is there crying, and that's they're like Fantom of the Opera style in the box alone lovers, and then that's that's the last time Marian ever sees Eloise. And then and that's the end of the movie. So let's take a quick break and we'll come back to discuss and we're back, bonjeur, We're back. Where where do we want to start? There's there's so much to talk about here. Well, um, one thing, just kind of general, um, very noticeable thing about this movie is that there are almost no men in the movie. It is just many, many, well mostly three women. And then other characters that we see are also for the most part women, like at the Coven and the the Midwife question mark. You only see pretty brief glimpses of men at the very beginning and at the very end. I saw Selin Siama refer to it in an interview as the men appear like jump scares in the they do though, when the men comeing like oh no, fuck. When there's that man at the table at the kitchen table at the end of the movie, it is it does you're like, first time seeing it, Yeah, You're like, oh God, what's he doing here? Yeah, because it's almost like you're before that moment, you've been transported into this kind of fantasy world where there are no men and you don't need them and they're not which is part of what's so great about the whole Midwife thing is it's even in like this medical context, there are no men. You know, you just don't need them. And you know, my little my lesbian bias is showing we don't need men. Actually we don't need them at all. Um. But but no, it's true. It is. Really you're like they're in this kind of domestic fantasy where it's almost like, you know, Sophie and Marianne and Louise are a kind of weird family together and that's completely shattered when the when the man appears. Um, yeah, it's super interesting. Yeah, and it's like the man arriving signals like the end. It's like it means that this like this ideal I mean not ideal, but you know, this life that they're that they've built over the course of two weeks. But it feels like the longer um is going to be shattered and disrupted by his presence at all. I want to pull a quote from a BuzzFeed News article by Shannon Keating. Quote, though men and their dangerous, undeserved powers hover ominously just outside the trio's idol trio being Marian, Eloise and Sophie, the faceless nameless stranger who got Sophie pregnant. The man Eloise is supposed to marry Sight unseen, Marian's artist father, from whom she'll inherit the family business and under whose name she's sometimes forced to submit paintings. The women wield their own powers of generation and destruction. Unquote. So it's like all these men are being talked about or like they're looming, but we don't have to see them. That's true. It's really interesting. Yeah, it's like they still do exist under patriarchy, but it's you're you're watching them almost like it. It seems like every woman in this movie has a male presence that they're trying to navigate around or like exist in spite of where I mean. It's it's really clear with Sophie's story where she wants to get an abortion and she does not want him to know or be involved, and we don't know a ton about it, but we do know that she's taking troll of that situation, and even with even though she's barely in the movie, with um Eloise's mother too, like she is using this Milanese man to get home, and like she's she's you know, giving her daughter away, both of her daughters away in an effort to get to somewhere where she wants to be, because it's I feel like it's implied that she couldn't just go there on her own. She has to make this, you know, kind of cruel decision against her daughter's wishes because that is how she could get to where she wants to be and how it seems like she thinks that they'll be able to survive. So it's like everyone's playing in this game of four D chess, and it's interesting to watch them even though it's like I mean a lot of the time you don't agree with the decisions they're making, but especially the mother, but they're just having to like yeah that the men are just like hanging over. I'm glad that they're not there. You don't need them physically there, but you can still. But it's like it's especially in this, you know time in the ye olden France, olden days, just like they don't even need to be there to be influencing the story, Like it's yeah and some levels. One of the most interesting roles there is the Marianne's dad, because I actually had almost forgotten that her dad was a painter, and that's the whole reason she's a painter to begin with, is it was like the family craft, you know, that was passed on. I had honestly forgotten until the second viewing and I was like, oh yeah. And then there's that moment at the end where she she's like, oh yeah, actually I submitted under my dad's name, but it's me surprised, um, which actually I really like that. In that moment, the the old guy who compliments it isn't like, oh well it was bad, actually he's like, oh well, He's just like Okay, that's fine. I like it just kind of a nice surprise. You're like, okay, random old guy is an ally. Um, that's nice feminist icon, that old man old guy at the end. Right. There's also that really interesting moment speaking of you know, men not being visible. It's just a really interesting moment where they're talking about the craft of painting and drawing nudes and stuff and it stood, um and uh, Marianne is like, yeah, I'm actually not allowed to draw naked men. Um, but we do it in secret and everyone knows, and it's fine and fascinating because even in that moment, it's almost like secretly drawing men, which um for a woman to do is not particularly queer, is all of a sudden queer coded because it's a secret and it's like, you know, it was very fast. I was interesting. I was like, oh, that's kind of fun, that's kind of saucy. And then she says like, yeah, women aren't allowed to paint like nude art of male figures to keep women from being great artists. So it's the patriarchy strikes again. Another power play. UM. I was interested in how because Selene Siama wrote and directed this movie and I was curious of what her research process was because I think, as we've all advtted at this point, this area of history in this region is very like vague to me. It was like, well what it was? What did she learn? Like did you what kind of research did she do? And I thought like, uh, yeah, in this Fox interview, Um, I just wanted to share this because it was just an area of art history I didn't know about where. Selene Siama says, quote, I did a lot of research on this period. I chose this moment of art history because there were hundreds of women painters at the time that had flourishing careers. We're always being told about women's progress and women's opportunity that we're quote unquote getting there, but it's not true. It's cycles and we can see it today. We experienced backlash also, and they did also at the time. There was a strong female critics scene that we never hear about, and they were looking at women's bodies of work more than their male colleagues were, for instance unquote. So it was just like a cool to learn that she's she was pulling from a time where you know, women's art was unusually accepted and prominent in a way that doesn't seem like it was reflected in history books because I guess who's usually in charge of those. Another interesting thing about that is which kind of took me by surprise. But I also just don't know enough about I mean history in general and specifically French history. But when Eloise and Marian are talking about like what's in store for them and their futures, Eloise is like, oh, when will you marry? And Marian's like, I don't know that I will. And she's like, what you don't have to and she's like and Marian's like, I'll take over my father's business, which struck me because I was like, oh, we're women allowed to be like business owners and proprietors in that era, in that part of the world. Apparently yes, Well she's kind of like she's almost like a freelance artist, right, yeah, just you know, give me a couple of give me a couple bucks, I'll do some erotic paintings of your daughter gig economy that she is a gig economy worker. That would be funny if if task Grabbic could send you out and a in a little canoe um to go do a gig for a couple of weeks. I do think like that that um, yeah, that that Like, I guess the way that class is structured in this movie is really interesting. I feel like, I don't know, I'm sure that there's elements of it that are extremely glazed over, especially where it's I feel like France is kind of unique in that the class issues have always been a big like national discussion. There. She said, they've got those guillotines, but all if it, but all you know, the the trio of this story, you're all from kind of different class backgrounds, and you see the you know, benefits and not benefits of like Sophie is, you know, working class. She is very limited in what her options are. We see, we get a glimpse at her community. We know that she doesn't have the access to medicine that Eloise would have, she doesn't have the options, she has to work for a living, and on and on. Um. Then I feel like, I guess, I guess I would call Marianne more middle class. Where it seems like it's like at the time it was kind of a new thing, like right, like it's a submerging artisan class that didn't really exist before. Then because it was either like, oh, you're a peasant or your nobleman look um right, So yeah, she's definitely in this kind of in between middle space for sure, and of the three, it seems like she has kind of the most choice of what she can do with her life, which is I feel like kind of unusual. I mean, I guess it's like we don't live in a country where a middle class exists any longer. So maybe that's part of why you're like interesting. Um, But then you see, like Eloise, you know, I don't know. I every time there's character like tragic aristocracy girls, I'm like kind of rolling my eye, but you do see. But I but I understand in the context of this time why being of the like why being in the upper class does work against her in some ways, Like she has infinitely more options and access than Sophie does, but in the same way she has, you know, no control over her life. She's also like, weirdly she knows less things, like she doesn't have as much she doesn't know about like you know, like Mayen teaches her just basic things about culture. At the time, she's like, yeah, it's a song, I really like it because like all she had before that she was in the convent, which interestingly is painted as like a better option than like the marriage. And you kind of see why. Um, and you could argue that there's well, I don't know how blasphemous I want to go, but you could argue that in a queer context, the convent is interesting as well, because it's, uh, you know, certainly they're not all banging each other, not necessarily. I don't know. There is that classic story about the the bisexual swashbuckling French noblewoman who rescued her girlfriend from a conventence long story, Um, but what where's that movie? Look that one out? Yeah? J yeah? Yeah? Why is it there a movie about that? I don't know her name I believe is Julie Dubini. Um, I feel like it might have before episode Yeah, I who did it come up? Oh? When you did the episode on? Uh? You know, why are there's so many lesbian period piece I'm sure we'll get into that, but one with with Rachel Weiss. I feel like, yes, yes, Izzie didn't tell us about that. That's it's a wild story, I mean, but anyway, I'm getting off track here. But all this to say The Confident kind of represents in a way a similar idyllic, all female environment, except you know, in this one they get to bang, which is nice um for them and for the viewers. You know, I guess if you're into that, um I am anyway, what well, I mean. Eloise even says like, I was having a ball at the convent because there was a library, I could hear music. And she says like, equality is a pleasant feeling. So because she was among all women and they were all equal among each other, she was like, the convent is actually pretty dope, pretty cool. Join the convent kids. That conversation that they because it sounds it's like implied that Marianne also spent time at a convent and she didn't like it as much. And Eloise is like, well, that's because you can do other stuff with your life, like you can just go to a library or like, Yeah, that conversation was really interesting without kind of bashing you over the head about it being a conversation about class, because they're also vibing ate. The other interesting class component to me was that even though they're all from different classes, and Sophie in particulars from the lowest class of them. They all treat each other for the most part like equals. They like bring Sophie into their friendship. They play cards with her, they read story Ease together. They help her get an abortion without it being made a thing of at all. Like that, I feel like it was. The abortion storyline is really interesting in a lot of ways, but I just I love that it's just like Marianne and Eloise are just like, oh, okay, you don't want to have a baby, let's figure this out, and it just becomes a team effort. We can you can join us on our dates, um and we'll have you know, you know, the classic lesbian date when you help a friend get an abortion, you know, on the beach. Kind of a third whale situation. But they make the best of it because they do so much. They gather herbs that are supposed to and apparently I was supposed to like induce an abortion. They have her run around, then they take her to this like medicine woman. You know, there's that there's many attempts involved, and I like that Sophie is so matter of fact about it too. It's just like I feel like with with abortion storylines, there's what you were describing earlier Caitlin where it's like the last second, like I can't do it, and it becomes this kind of like pro life e subtext, or there's just like this deep inherent shame attached to it, which I would have like props to Silly and Siama, because if someone was like, oh, a movie that takes place in you know, seventeen eighty whatever, I would have guessed that there would have been a lot of shame attached to it. But it's just like matter of fact, and Sophie doesn't feel shame about it either. She's just like, this is what I need to do and can you help me out? Yeah? Yeah, I mean relatedly, there's also that really interesting moment where Um mayan it's like looking away and actually earlier she's like, yeah, I've actually also had an abobo it happens, um, And but there's a moment where she's looking away and Louise is like, no, don't look away, And I think that kind of red forces the no shame thing, because it's like, look, there's nothing to be ashamed about. Don't be embarrassed. Like we're all here supporting our buddy. You no need to look away. Yeah, and then Marianne. Then I remember being kind of like it took me a second the first time I saw the movie to figure out what was going on when she was like, oh, I want to paint this too, and like document it somehow, because at first I was like, what is going on here? And there I did see some criticism around that of like's Sophie okay with this? They don't really ask her. She's just kind of out of it, and it's like, okay, I'll pose just like I guess it's been it's been a weird day already, so what's one more thing? But in the like abstract I thought that that was like such a such a cool choice of like, not only are they supported, they're like this is you know, it's it's it's especially because abortions are such like a normal part of life but never really documented or spoken about, especially you know, three hundred years ago. I thought it was really cool that she made an active choice to be like, no, this is worth documenting, and this is like a valid thing that happens in the world, and why doesn't any you know, why don't images exist of it? Yeah, that's true. Let's take a quick break. We'll come back to keep discussing, and we're back. I wanted to, I guess I wanted to just we've been talking a little bit about the behind the scenes of this movie, but I think it's like the story behind this movie. I remember reading it when it came out, but it was interesting to revisit that. Like this story, I feel like it's it's cool in the way that usually when we see stories that are about like artists and muses, it's never queer relationship. It's usually a male artist looking at a woman, and it often goes horrifically wrong. You know your phantom threads if you your mother exclamation mother. Yeah, Like, there's so many historical examples of it just becoming like a nightmare of control, and there are a lot of control dynamics and like who is looking and who has the power in this situation in this movie, But it's not centered on abuse and then centered on a queer relationship, and I kind of forgot that. Selene Siama and Adele Oh, how do I see her last name? Chloe? Adele annell Holy cow? I guess it's fun. Yeah, Uh, Seline Siama and Adele Annell. Um, we're in a relationship for a long time, and that to an extent, this is a movie reflecting on their relationship, which was like super interesting. Yeah, it's like, wow, I that's so healthy. Yeah I know that. Yeah. They're like, yeah, we broke up, um, but we're still buds. Um. You can still be in my movies, you know, Like, yeah, it's very interesting. And there is there is like one you know, conversation that's a little bit about control and kind of the subtext is about exactly what you're talking about. It's like the one moment where they have an actual fight and pretty much immediately Mallion apologizes AND's like I'm so sorry. It's like, okay, it's resolved. Wow, it turns out it's really easy. You just gotta say I'm sorry and then you're you're good. Unbelievable, Like they just listened to each other. Um yeah, I mean it's like, I won't get two into it, but I fell down the Selinciama adele Annel relationship rabbit hole. And they just have so much mutual respect for each other. Uh. They've been working together for like a decade or something like that, for something like six or seven years, like yeah, and then and they they were broken up by the time this movie existed, and it was just like, I want to find that. There's so many quotes about it. Um, So okay, I'll choose a Selene Siama quote because they were like not shy about talking about it as as the movie was on a press too as well. So Siama says, just as the characters in the film discover each other in a painting studio, so Adele and I met on a film set. We talked a lot about cinema during our relationship, and we grew enormously intellectually. I also wanted to show that in the film the lasting emancipating effect that such a romantic encounter can have on your life. Uh. Which and and there. They also have both talked about how it was like very known on set and almost like t he as at this a bizarre situation to be putting this whole crew it, But but it's fun. Yeah, it's it's very interesting. Um. That is a very cool thing that they are able to do that. Um. And I, since we're on the topic of a little bit behind the scenes and talking about a little bit about more about the about Sciama and I would be remiss not to mention that adult Annell is a badass, is like a really really cool, like outspoken feminist advocate in France, and you know, within acting and uh specifically caused quite a scene because she I don't know, was it twenty I think it was the most recent one at the Yeah, the SISA, which is for those who don't know, is kind of like the kind of like France's oscars um. I don't know why all these awards are named after men, but whatever, an interesting thing to impact I know why. But um, yeah, the SIZZA, she she caused quite a commotion because they were giving some kind of honorary award to Polanski and she you know, walked out loudly in protests and was basically go, I don't remember exactly what she said, but she was basically, you know, mocking the whole thing, being like, yeah, cool, let's give awards to rapists, fuck you guys, um And and she was much more eloquent than what I just know that's exactly what she's at. But yeah, and so it's a very it's a cool thing she in general is, um, it's just kind of a badass. So I felt I wanted to point that out didn't Uh Selene Siama also like join her in walking Out. Yeah, I think that the whole crew basically, but Adele and Lle was one of the she was the spearheading it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and she's talked a lot about her own experiences with you know, abuse in the industry, and um, yeah, she's she's very cool, so she's definitely someone to watch in general. And she's a phenomenal actress, which is cool as well. Everyone in this move has a perfect complexion and it made me so self conscious that yeah, Adele and now she will link to this as well. But the yeah, she she spoke extensively about like being harassed sexually harassed when she was an underage actor, and how in many ways her relationship with Seli Siama was like healing experience of like having a close relationship with a director who respected and heard her, was equity in the relationship, who knew. Yeah. I I loved learning about their relationship and that they're working relationship. It's all just like they're both so uniquely cool and the other. The other um thing I think worth mentioning in the background of this movie is that there is a female cinematographer Claire Mathson Claire Mathon, let's say hold on cinematography by Yeah yeah, Claire Matson, who has also given a lot of interesting interviews around this movie. And it's that seems to be the real priority for Selinciama throughout her career is to prioritize the female gays. And she I mean because she's been she's been making movies since oh seven, that I like. It seems like there's a lot of different takes on her body of work, but that they have generally prioritized female gays in in the way that there shot in female female gays and the female gays. There's a lot of wow. Selinciama is all about the female games and always imaginable. Yeah. There's been a lot of criticism of lesbian love stories to acted by men, notably The Handmaid in Blue is the warmest color clouds of Sulia and Carol. That I mean in the ways in which the women in those movies are sexualized vary from movie to movie. There's a spectrum here, but these movies do tend to focus heavily on kind of sexualizing the women and focus a lot on the sex scenes in ways that could be considered to be like catering to the male gaze, and Celenciyama has spoken about that and spoken about how like lesbian movies directed by men often do a disservice to lesbian and queer women, saying, quote, these stories are really dangerous for patriarchy. That's why the male gaze is obsessed with representing lesbians, for instance. It's a way to control it. Our stories are powerful because they are dangerous. We are dangerous. So it's a very good strategy to despise us, to undermine us, because it's giving us less leverage for a very powerful political dynamic unquote. So to have this story written and directed by a woman, a queer woman, to have it shot by a woman, to have the story told entirely through the lens of women, the differences are clear. Like comparing this to for example, blue is the Warmest Color, or The Handmaid in which we're also covering The Handmaid in later this month, a movie I really like, and I think it is very cool and well written, but there are you know, pretty graphic sex scenes that are arguably pretty gratuitous. No need for an argument. Really, Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about Yeah, about the about there's a lot there. But yeah, that's really interesting. You just brought up a lot, a lot of good stuff. Um. I I have to say I have a soft spot for Carol in particular, I do. I didn't like Carol. It feels a little different to me from those other movies. Um, maybe in part because Todd is that's Todd Haynes, right, if I'm remembering Christ Todd Haynes is a queer man. So that kind of is an interesting twist in a way. Um for me, that one is a little different. But yeah, it's definitely a thing where like, you know, there's this bizarre element of yeah, lesbians are hot, see them do stuff with their legs together. Um, this is not a visual podcast, so you'll imagine what I'm doing. Um. But yeah, the fascinating about this film and I and I actually like a good sex scene frankly, but the fascinating thing about this film is I forgot they don't really have a sex scene. I forgot until rewatching it that there actually isn't one. And I think the reason it feels like there's one even though there isn't, This whole movie is like one big long sex scene emotionally, you know what I mean, Like, there's some so romantic and it's so sensual, and it's so um you know that all those lingering gazes you know, and so and you do and you do see nudity. Um the movie shy about that. It's just you don't necessarily see like, you know, thrusting um right, a very objectifying yeah. Yeah, And so that's very interesting because I'm I'm a very um varying minds about sex scenes. I do like a good sex scene, but it's hard to do a good one, and I think a lot a lot of it does become this weird like let's just have a marathon like sex session and people we all love it. It's like, Okay, calm down, hang out and do armpit and she's together. Well, that's admittedly, I think one of the reasons when I first saw this, I was like, Oh, this movie is boring. Where's all the steamy sex I was expecting to see? And then I was reading different people's perspectives and reading about this kind of tendency, especially for men directing queer women's stories, and their tendency to over sexualize the relationships. I was like, Okay, I I now appreciate more why Selene's Yama didn't go there, But I also think I would have liked to see like a lesbian sex scene that is through the lens of a queer woman and what that would look like. So I'm sure you know the scenes exist, Yeah, there's I can give some recommendations, but yeah, no, It's true. Part of me is like I wouldn't have said no to a sex scene, but also I get why it's not there, um right, you know, yeah, I I wasn't sure where to fall there. I guess it's like ultimately I'm like, well, iris her decision, Like I'm sure that she had, you know, she she seems like, just based on every interview I've read with her, that she does things really really really intentionally. And so while I would have been down to see a sex scene, Chloe, You're totally right, like it is. It's it's it's an extremely sexy movie for a movie where you don't see sex, and I do like the like level of I don't know, I mean, it's like in all movies, I feel like there's not always like that level of like close physical intimacy and like prioritizing seeing it. I would have, honestly like I would have I would have liked a sex scene in this movie. But there's so but it's so much physical intimacy and like just it's I don't know, I I think it's really it's so romantic. And oh that The last most imp hordant behind the scenes note is that Selene Siama, as I think we've already mentioned, was influenced by Titanic for this movie. Uh. And she she spoke about it in that same box interview which will link it's so good. Um. She says Titanic is the hugest success, and it's because it's totally queer. So shout out to queer canon Titanic. Um. But the piece by Emily vander Wert, says uh. Siama says in an interview she wanted the romance in Portrait of a Lady on Fire to feel like, of all things, the scenes between Jack and Rose and Titanic, which she considers to be one of the cinema's great totally queer love stories. Um. And I think in that way with that, it's like, oh, the physical intimacy without I mean, I guess, but you do get a sex scene in Titanic, So like, where is the sex scene, Selene? But it's a very fade to black kind of, it's a very tame sex scene because I gotta keep it PG Third Team, it's like the same vibe um. But yeah, the idea that, like Titanic is a queer love story because Leonardo DiCaprio was quote totally androgynous at the time, is love It a whole new way to watch Titanic. Just remake Titanic with like a cute butch instead of Leo. Let's see, let's just see, let's just check it out, Let's see what happened. It would work, Let's it would work. I would love to hear a Selene Siama audio commentary on Titanic. Just yeah, you gotta get her. You gotta get her on the pod. You gotta get you gotta get her on the pod for another Titanic episode. We're going to do one, at least one every year. So what if what if Selene? Wait, hold on, wait, we're suddenly on something. What if Selene is the one who remakes Titanic just a thought spitballing, just putting it out there, and then you'll have two Selene's on the project. I mean Selene Dion come back and write another amazing song whole Selene, is it a world prepared? Maybe she could get involved. Yeah, shout out to my cousin. She could be she could be Mr Andrews or somebody. Yeah, all female reboot of Titanic. The other thing I wanted to bring up as it relates to kind of a general trend of just like queer women, love stories, lesbian movies. It the white lesbian period film trend. Yes, of course it is. So, I mean this has been talked about, so we're not bringing up anything new on the podcast, but it's still worth mentioning that, um, a lot of mainstream lesbian movies, especially the ones that have like big stars and get a like wider theatrical release, take place in the past during a time when it was not at all tolerated by society for people of the same gender to be together romantically. So with this trend, you can look at it a few ways, and it's not inherently a negative thing because, on one hand, it shows something that's often been you know, overlooked or forgotten about in history, which is that queer people have always existed, and it shows to some extent what queer people have had to deal with in societies that were even more heteronormative than society is today. But then it also means that a lot of lesbian love stories are about like a doomed, clandestine romance in which the character's time spent together is very fleeting, in which the characters cannot live happy lives together, in which they cannot fully be themselves. So this is a trend we see in this movie Portrait of a Lady on Fire in the Favorite in Carol, a couple of recent movies Ammanite, which is the Kate Winslett Sarsha Nan I haven't seen. Has anyone seen Ammonite? I have not, But I will say something really that really tickled me is when I rewatched Portrait of Lady on Fire last night, you know, because it's on Hulu. So it's like, I'll just rewatch it on Hulu. It was like next suggestion, Ammanite. I was like, what come on? Like what am I just binging like lesbian period pieces right now? What do you want? Hulu? What are you trying to do to me? And then there's another one from called The world to come, which one is. I watched the trailer. It seems like a sexier like thriller. The thing that also Casey Affleck is in what which is like why you're like, I think you can skip it because of him being a thank you? It does? I feel like it does, um And we we had a version of this conversation in our episode on Carol. I believe, but it does sort of. I mean it's it's, first of all, a very white genre and and most of the relationships focused on are often straight white actresses playing queer characters, which I would just refer everyone to the Carol episode for our discussion about that, because I know that's a very complicated topic. But it also means that you don't get any like queer joy or celebration by like focusing strictly on time periods where you know what's not going to happen, like it's it's tragic and the and the interesting thing, and I will say is that it's not even a hundred percent historically accurate either, because an old timey queer romance is not necessarily something that's going to end in tragedy either. Obviously there's a higher percentage because you know, social expectations, get married to men, all this stuff. But you know, there are obviously, there are historical examples of women living together and very heavily sometimes explicitly mentioned as being together, you know, in a romantic sexual way. And obviously it's a little rarer, but it didn't doesn't mean it didn't happen. Actually, I mean spoiler alert for Fingersmith. I guess that you know, you if if you've seen The Handmaid and you already know kind of the story, Um, but that one is interesting because it doesn't end in a in a sad way, even though to get there is really wild. I mean, a lot happens in that story. But that's kind of an interesting example of like, yeah, actually, you know there were this is I mean, there's my very um gender one oh one. Like literally I took a gender and sexuality class in college. Shout out to NYU, but uh, one of the interests things about that class that was genuinely eye opening to me. It's like, yeah, in a way, sometimes because of the fact that there weren't necessarily labels and things like that, sometimes people were just like, you know what, none of my business felt like whatever, And it's not always like obviously that it wasn't like there wasn't the same freedom that that people have now. But there were absolutely cases, you know, if communities were just be like, yeah, that's Isabelle and Annabelle. I don't know those are I don't know why. Well that was when attracted them to each other originally the bell Yeah, yeah, they just you know, they lived together in this old house and neither of them got married and whatever, you know, I don't know, I'm not I'm not gonna ask questions, you know, like that, there was absolutely a phenomenon, you know, and even like my my mom's family comes from uh, you know, like they were um farmers, you know, until my grandparents moved to the city. Is a very you know, almost a stereo typical like yeah, you know, farmers moving to the big city. And then my mom grew up in Paris as a result, but like her whole family were like farmers, and they're absolutely stories of like yeah, you know, everyone knew so and so was gay, but you just didn't talk about it, and it wasn't it was It wasn't like a thing that was like yeah ra ra ra gay, but nobody bothered them at the same time. So it's not like that didn't exist. I mean there's a whole term bust in marriage, right that you know, sometimes they were just old ladies referred to, but sometimes they're banging. Sometimes they were banging, you know. And so it's it is interesting that the default is it is kind of an excuse to be like, yeah, well this one's got to be tragic because it's old timey, and it's like, well, it doesn't. And it doesn't have to be white either, right, Like, because it's old timy, you know, this was before um, this was before people of color were invented. I'm sorry, it's only white people. Like, no, that's wild, that doesn't make sense, you know, it's just it's not true. Right. So yeah, I think sometimes even though there are trappings of the genre that make that more likely to be the story told, it doesn't have to be either. And it's sort of a shame that through the long realm, like there's so much history, Like if we want to do a historical lesbian romance, why does it always have to be the same thing? You know, there's you could do it. I want to see a historical lesbian romance about like ancient Egyptians. Why not. I don't know anything about that. Could be, you know, just throwing it up there. There's so many opportunities, so many people, so many just want on a full, full fledged rant there. So I and another thing, I'm glad you said that though, because it is like there is like an element of revisionist history at play there that it's like, oh, you know, I think we're almost conditioned to believe that there was no way for a queer relationship to work out before fifty years ago. Yeah, and even though this movie kind of follows that sort of convention that we're used to. Selene Siama was also talking about this revisionist element when she was talking about this movie, where she said, um, quote, the tragedy of lesbian life is not the tragedy of lesbian representation. It's not the same. Lesbians have been activists. They've had the opportunity to live their life more freely sometimes than straight women because they could avoid a lot of things like getting married and having children. If you look at the Suffragettes, for instance, lesbians were there. The tragedy is we get erased from history. And that's like speaking exactly to your point. Layer, It's like, there are a lot of stories that are not extremely tragic, but they just are not prioritized and they're not taught I mean at all. Yeah, and in the case of this story, I think, you know, I mean, so it's a tragic story because Seline wanted to talk about her breakup and kind of obviously it a lot um But part of what's interesting to me about this one is that even though it ends with them not together, at the end of the day, it's about the beauty of their love. That's so maybe that's too corny, but it is the right So it doesn't feel as tragic to me. For me that the tears at the end of the movie, both for the spectator and for you know, the character is it's sad, but it's kind of bittersweet at the same time. It's sad, but it's also weirdly a little joyful because it's remembering this thing with so much love, you know, It's there's so much love behind it. So it's kind of an interesting I don't know, And maybe I'm just saying this because I like the movie, but it feels to me like it's not quite exactly playing into those tropes in quite the same way. I don't know, and maybe I'm just talking at my butt, but oh, I mean Marian at the very end says like she's talking to her one of her students, and her student has like drawn her in a particular way, and Marian's like, oh, you've made me look sad. And she's like, well, you looked sad, and she's like, well, I'm not anymore. I'm not sad anymore. So I think I'm going to fill in some headcannon where you know, Eloise was her first true love, but you know, she went back to Paris and she met another nice lady and now they're living together and Marian's teaching art to girls, and then maybe she got like a hot, hot Leo DiCaprio looking butch lady. We don't know, we don't know, yes, y, yeah, fully support that, um. But yeah, the trend is noticeable that it's you know, white ladies in the past who rarely get what we would consider by like mainstream Hollywood movie standards, like a happy ending. But hopefully we're kind of trending away from that, or at least that we get to see just more diversity in the sense of the types of stories that get told and the people who fill out those stories, and yeah, because more diversity is certainly needed. Yes, absolutely, and it is interesting and and I feel like it's a positive step that it is queer women telling queer stories as opposed to random guy and write blue is the Warmest Color was very briefly brought up earlier, and I think that's a really good example of like, like that one, it's on every level, like, you know, since that movie has come out, the actresses have also been like, yeah, it wasn't a great filming experience. You know, there's just like, yeah, I mean it, that one's rough. And for a while it was like, yeah, this is it. This is a lesbian movie, isn't it great. I'm like, no, it's not. Though, like there's you know, there's still so much room for progress, and it's like this, I don't know, this movie is interesting because it falls into that category and then in some ways it doesn't, which I'm like, okay, so incremental steps. I just wanted to talk about Marianne and Eloise's relationship a little bit because I think it's so cool and the way that there I don't know, like again just having a you know, muse artist relationship that is like pulling from a real life dynamic of Selene and Adele and having their b push and pull and having there be kind of this push for equity in that relationship on top of equity and a romantic relationship is just not something you see in movies really ever, or like the power dynamics of how because the power dynamics of their relationship changes over time. Where Marianne she she definitely struggles being vulnerable. She clearly likes to be in control of the situation. She is the painter. You know, it's like she's going to see into you, but you don't get to learn anything about her and Eloie watching Eloie's kind of challenge that and push back on that and be like I'm looking at you too, Like that scene is so good. Yeah, I just love that that And like there's also this element that is very common in romantic stories involving every one of all genders, where like there's some deception at the beginning of it, and that's the case for this too, but like the deception is very short, it's only kind of happening by necessity, and then basically as soon as possible Marianne is like, I wanna like clear the air here. I want to be the one to tell her myself. I want to like explain what was happening. So I really appreciated that as just like her wanting to be forthcoming about what the situation is and clear the air as soon as possible. They handle conflict really well, where it's like anytime they have an issue, it's just like discussed right away, or they're like they're also good about apologizing to each other when an apology is warranted, and like, I don't know, I'm just like, damn, this is relationship goals. Yeah, I'm kind of now. It's true. They have a really interesting dynamic, and I do. I love that that. Marianne is basically like, look, I've done this super secret painting I made. I'm going to make sure the prom queen, but I'm gonna tell her first. I don't want to, you know, like, um, like, can I make the dorkiest girl in school the prompt? That's just the first thing that I thought. I thought, deception, it's weird, but but no, but it really is. Um, it really is like that. The relationship, the actual romantic part at first is kind of built on that deception, because there's that really interesting exchange where Louise is like, Okay, so that's why you were looking at me like that. I thought you were I thought you were like checking me out. You know. There's so much subtext where she doesn't literally say I thought you were checking me out, but it's very clear that that's what she means. Um, where she was like, yeah, I thought you actually thought I was cute, but never mind, you're just studying my cheekbones. Okay, cool, And then Mariann's like, no, but I also was doing that, but I also like your cheekbones. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm staring at your lips because I need to paint their exact shape, but also I would like to kissed them. You see. So it's complicated, right, So yeah, the the I did really like that. She kind of reveals that right away, and after that it does shift the power dynamic again because now, first of all, the dynamic is a lot more clear because before, even though the dynamic was Heloise is the noble lady and this is my companion, my walking, my slow walking companion. Um, now it's like, well, okay, this is you know, actually she's a painter. She's painting you, you have to kind of obey her. There's kind of low key, interesting kinky thing going on there. A little bit very low key, but it is kind of interesting where you're kind of like, yeah, you gotta you gotta do as I say, put your hands over here like this. But even then, that's very interesting. The first time she poses her she does ask for permission. She's like, can I can I move your hand. It's a very interesting thing because it kind of substitutes as asking for permission to kiss. For example, the first time they kissed, they don't ask each other, but it's one of those wordless you know, let's take off our masks because it's a pandemic thing. Um. That is so it is so weird that they have a mask. Is very bizaria. It's interesting but very weird. But yeah, yeah, to me, there were no traces of surprise kiss is happening here. It was all of consensual. It was, which is pretty rad um, pretty pretty red and understanding red anyway. Um. Yeah, and that whole that whole part that Jamie that you mentioned where she's basically telling her like all about her in depth analysis of like yeah, when you're awkward, you like scrunch your nose. I don't remember exactly what it is. It's not that. But and then she flips on her as like, well, guess what, I know all of your cool mannerisms to all your little quirks because like your eyebrows move. And then she's like, you noticed my eyebrows move? How dare you? No one's ever told me my eyebrows move? For yeah, A lot of really good flirting in this movie, really like excellent flirting. Just a lot of conversations about looking at each other and then a lot of looking at each other right, which is what Caitlin. One of the complaints I'm sure is part of the reasons so long is that they do look at each other a long But I personally love it. I love the like layers of like, I don't know, I mean, this is like, I guess part of the sad the sadness of the relationship is the whole thing is like predicated on like once Marianne can see Eloise clearly, that marks the ending of their time together, and that like, if she's successful in seeing another person, that means that she then needs to give up that authentic image to someone who Eloise doesn't even know and has to go off to and that didn't like I mean, I recognize that the first time I saw the movie, but I didn't really think about it until this viewing. And it's because of I think I just didn't think about the countess very much in the in my first viewing of this movie. But the mom character is interesting. We haven't really talked about her. Yeah, because her, because she gives the perfect setup for like what these portraits are accomplishing, and like reflects on how she feels about her own portrait where you know, you see a portrait of like the younger countess in the whatever den where they're always chilling, and and it's like this is like the image that your husband, who you don't know, receives before you get there. And she is like talking about how this portrait of her arrived before she ever did, and then she had to arrive and it's like this picture here staring at her and she has to live up to this image that may or may not be an authentic reflection of who she was, and that her daughter, of course, is going to I mean, but it sounds like both of her daughters were extremely you know, pushing against that and feeling kind of the the constraint and doom that came with it. Because it's this is like not really discussed very heavily in the movie. It's mostly at the beginning, but it's Sophie. I think Sophie tells Marianne that it seems like Eloise's sister died by suicide by wordlessly stepping off of a cliff, and Eloise later opens up and says that her sister had left her this kind of veiled apology and a letter because she was aware that by taking her own life, Eloise was going to have to marry this guy instead. But it just it's it's I mean, even though it's like men aren't in the movie, that like looming cloud of aristocracy, patriarchy is very like it's hanging over this family in a really intense way. And as much as it's like I wish that the Countess could solve patriarchy and be like, you know, you don't have to do this, We'll just live in this old house forever and don't you worry about it, blah blah blah, but I think that is like where some of the realism of the movie comes in where it's like the Countess is such a tough character because it's like I don't like her, I think, especially after losing her daughter, Like why why not reevaluate, you know, before putting your your other daughter in this exact same position with the exact same guy. Like it is implied that it's kind of like a selfish decision on her part because she wants to go back to Milan, where she's from. But then it's also like what else would they do? I don't really know, Like it's it's just so, and she's not a completely unsympathetic character, and the moments you see her with Eloise, I totally understand why Eloise is like, um, going to keep you at arm's length, But you can also see how the Countess like really desperately wants to connect with her daughter and can't, and they clearly like it doesn't seem like there's been much of a discussion or grieving process about her sister, and just like there's all this stuff hanging over this family that they just aren't talking about. I mean, this movie frames this type of like arranged aristocratic marriage as a prison, a prison which her mother was originally in, like and that's why she's like in this big empty house now because she like by the bonds of marriage, had to like leave Milan and go here, and then she had daughters and now she's sort of setting them up in this rosen cow all over again exactly. So she's setting them up like with this marriage with this guy and like kind of her escaping her own prison. She's doing that via putting her daughter's in like the next generation of this like prison marriage thing. So it's just like this weird cyclical patriarchal thing. Yeah. At the same time, that's part of the reason she justifies it, right, She was like, well, that's what that's what I had to do, you know, like like I didn't like it at first, but you know, the things that you grow to like, and you know, and Milan is cool. You like Milan. Um, that's great. When you by the way, when you were talking about t again, I just pictured that um that the Milanese gentleman is just Billy's ain off screen just totally we we can't prove it's not. Um. So yeah, yeah, it is a really interesting thing. And there's this kind of interesting went to where um, Marianne and the mom like bond. They have that cute moment where they speak Italian together, which I had actually also forgotten about, and I do actually speak a little Italian, so I was like, oh cool, he's my Italian one of one um. But yeah, there is a really interesting dynamic, for sure, because she knows that it's not good, but also she's kind of just like, well, that's how it is. That's what you gotta do. You know, that's its own tragedy. In some ways, that is almost you can't help but wonder like did the mom have her own fun little lesbian trist like I hope she at least has her page somewhere, but probably not. Probably not. Yeah, it is very interesting the mom character, especially because when she comes back from that trip, you know that you well, this is the interesting question. You almost wonder like does she know, like does she understand what exactly was happening, because she kind of seems like she us. She kind of seems like she was like, all right, I'll let you have your lesbian love affair, but you better come back with a painting. Yeah, I'll be gone for five days, make sure you make the most of it, and then I'll be back at the end. Of it, and I also wonder if Sophie knows. I think Sophie does know. She's got to know, he's got to know. I don't know how thin the walls are in like old timey like French castles, but we're not castles. It's a little home, I guess. But yeah, why didn't they share their drugs with Sophie. That was a little inconsiderate, especially because she's probably in some physical pain after her abortion. Yeah, they should have shared their drugs. Could have been nice. Speaking of physical pain though, um menstrual cramps representation, I'm actually way too much information and feel free to cut, but I'm actually feeling it right now. I mean, I've never seen I don't think a character experiencing menstrual pain in a movie ever, even though it's something that happens to many people very frequently, myself included. And I'm just like, damn, that's representation that we've needed to see and that we haven't. So it's a nice touch. It was another thing that was just like, I don't know, it makes me glad that Selin Siama is making the movie. Yes, yeah, because it's the kind of detail that wouldn't have been well, which is why even though I do understand, I do agree that the movie is kind of long, part of me is like, who would you cut? Oh? You know, because like there's so many things that I feel like aren't There's so many scenes that aren't like necessary, like quote unquote, but they they're so good. They add like I love the part where they're playing cards. Is it important really in the long run. No, but it's a great scene, you know, good, it's a vibe. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think any like story needs to be cut. It's just like individual shots that go on for way too long. Walk faster, yeah, walk faster. Shave off some of the the shots that are too long. You can maintain the entire story, as is my my European side. But I love the long, lingering shots. I'm like, yes, have that is sex. I love it. Keep doing it again. I am very impatient. So it's it's my impatient American sensibilities that I'm just like, Okay, cut away to the next shot, please another Just shout out to the artist Eileen the mov Yes. Yes, is this the person who painted the painting? Yes, she's the person who's hands we see anytime, like any like drawing or painting is happening. So she's sort of like the artist stand in for millions character. So yeah, just shout out to her. Here we go. Ellendel Mayer got it. That's exactly what I said. I guess she was like on it sounds like she was on set pretty frequently. There was a really fun interview with Oh God, I'm gonna say her. You just taught me how to say her name, Chloe know me, merl me knowing me Merlan, where she was talking about how she was like technically painting during all those scenes, but the paintings were really ugly, and I was like, I was like, I want to see her paint things. She's like, I paint for fun. But yeah, definitely was not me painting. Paint things were not very good. That's so funny. It does look really effortless when someone else is already most of it. I could do that. I couldn't just cooking add some green. They're sure. So basically Ellen is James Cameron because he's the one whose hands we see drawing Rose in Titanic. It makes you think. Um. Another shout out for this movie being it won the Queer Palm at can and it was the first film directed by a woman to win that award, so that it's frustrating, but also that I'm glad it happened, but every year just like what the fuck? Like really any other thoughts, observations, et cetera about this movie. We covered so much. I wrote so many notes, but most of them are just like, oh oh. One last thing I'll mention is that this movie is really banking on the view were knowing the Greek myth and true again cannot say the name your curd is um. I had to look up that myth on Wikipedia and learn about what the story is from there, because I was like, I don't know this story. That was a little bit I get. Like Selanciama described it in an interview. She's like, oh, it's like a Netflix and Chill discussion but in the late eighteenth century. I'm like, sure, Seline, sure, I could see maybe maybe, But I was also like, um, this is this is a this is a discussion about art, and I know, I know it's like metaphorically significant, but I was like, mom, I'm gonna I'm gonna give myself a pass on this one. I do like that. I do like the symbolism of that moment, and it is true. I like that she framed it that way because it is funny that moment when they're all kind of reading to each other right there, that's kind of a funny thing. You have to read out loud because you can't just all watch a book together. It's not not a little different from Netflix and Chill for that reason. But I do love that moment where suffused like what, no, screw that, Like why don't they end up together? I hate it? It's just like so mad. Yeah, that scene, the moment where they keep having that repeated image of a Louise in the in the wedding dress and every time she looks back and it's it's a little on the nose, it's a little obvious, but it's also it's nice. I don't know, I liked it. It's if it's it makes for a nice through line. Yeah, yeah, anything else? Yeah, that that was everything I had. Yeah, I think I think we covered everything. You know, we talked about so much. Page eight um beautiful. Yeah, it gets me at the end of this movie. That's like I was trying to not burst into tears, but you know, you can't not you literally cannot not it's hard. I just I want to quickly give a shout out to, speaking of page twenty eight, to that really great shot um where the composition of the shot where um Eloise is like naked, like, oh, you need a mirror, let me just prop it up against my puss um yep. That was so that way you can see yourself. This is Yeah, that shot reminded me of my own tumbler in college. I was like, Oh, that would have That's like such a like that's that sounds reductive, but like I was like, that is such a tumbler shot that I was like, oh, if I was eighteen on Tumbler, I would have been reblogging the ship out of that. It's another one that's a little on the nose, but I don't like that. I'm not gonna like, yeah, pretty fun. Yeah, sure, a lot of good shots. Yeah, shout out again to this in a photographer. I don't know, I don't think I really have anything else to say. I just I could talk about this movie forever. Well. Like we foreshadowed, the movie passes the Bechdel test a lot. Also another example, we haven't come upon many movies that passed the Veto Russo test, which examines representation of queer characters in cinema, but this one obviously passes. And as far as our nipple scale, our scale of zero to five nipples, based on how the movie fares. Looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens, I think I'll give it like four and a half nipples, taking a little bit off for it being another just kind of example in the cannon of white ladies, middle or upper class living in the past and the queer joy that they experience is quite fleeting. You know, more movies that aren't that please but that this movie is one of those examples, Like you know, it's it's still, it's fine. This is a beloved movie. It's very nice. I'll distribute my nipples to Selene Siama, Selene dion Um, Sophie. I want to get a nipple, you know, the romance gets a nipple. I'll give my half nipple two page. Yeah, I guess I'll go four four and a half for this movie. It it discusses so much. I agree it does kind of fall into this trope, but I think on the least troubling side of the trope, where you know, we do have a queer writer director telling a queer story. I mean we we didn't talk about this, but Adele is also a queer woman. Well I guess we technically did talk about that. But um, I think that's kind of a rarity and a prestige work like this. Usually it's two straight wide actresses playing for characters, um and kind of making a big deal about it on the press tour and blah blah blah. It's it's conventions were familiar with unfortunately when and I yeah, I think it's just like a beautiful love story. I like that room is made for discussion about things you wouldn't expect, Like there is like a discussion of class. There is like an abortion storyline that is a big deal, but it's not made like it's it's an abortion storyline told with authority and empathy, which and and not try g D porn were or and not weirdly pro life that normalizes abortion. Right. Yeah, It's just it's just a very thoughtfully told story. And I mean, Caitlin, yeah, I'm on board with with everything you said about the places where it it maybe isn't completely stellar, Uh, but it's a it's a pretty story. I like it. It made me cry, um, and I hope that you know it because it was such a huge, main mainstream success, especially for you know, an international movie, a queer movie, like on a number of levels. The fact that it got such a wide release in the US, I felick, is a really hopefully bodes well for queer cinema moving forward. So I'll give it. I'll give it four and a half. Why not. I'll give one to each of the three of the main trio, um, and I'll give the other nipple and a half to their shoes, um, which moved too slow for my tape. Yeah, maybe the nipple will help them speed up. I don't know, I know some slippery add some tread you know, Chloe, how about you? Yeah? I mean agreed with with everything said. There was one tiny piece that I missed because my connection went out for a second, So I hope I didn't miss too much. I'll just listen to it in the episode. But yeah, I think for me it's I'm also going to give it a four and a half. Um, you know, for all the reasons listed, it is really interesting. Um. You know when you said, yeah, it has such a wide release. I meant to bring this up and I forgot. You know, one of the interesting things to me about this movie and the reception at God is I had like straight friends who were like, yeah, so good, and I was like, why how you know this? You know, like I know because I'm gay. I think like I had such a big you know, it became such a smash hit that I had so many like straight guy friends that were like, yeah, I saw a battle Lesion Fils and they didn't say it like that, but yeah, it was really good. It's such a good movie and like you don't have to tell me, I know, and ali um of good movies. UM. But yeah, it is interesting that it had it got such a big reception, which is cool, and I do hope that's for telling more, for telling more, you know what I mean. I hope it leads to more. Um. But yeah, and then so I guess four and a half. So in terms of the nipples that I will distribute, UM, let's see, I'm going to give one to Eloise, one to Marianne, one to Sufie, one to the Midwife, portion Provider, doctor lady um whatever her official title is. UM. I think I think you nailed it. Yeah, you options then and then let's see, I've got a half I've got a half nipple left. Um, I'm gonna give it to Lisaying off screen, just waiting any come in as the Milanese gentleman, just professional. Yeah, he's like, you don't even you know, you're sure, I'm ready if you want. Um. So, his off screen presence is really felt in this film, I think, um and I want to reward him for obviously. Yeah, thank you so much for for being here, Chloe. Thank you for for covering this movie with us. I'm very happy that we covered it and also that we had some French perspective on the on the story. Yeah we we. I mean we're clearly experts, but it was nice of you to come. Yeah, no, thank you so much. No, it's my pleasure. Um No, I'm happy to have lent my French build. I can do that, It's fine. Yeah, I'm I'm so thrilled. I obviously I'm a fan a matron even you could say wink wink, um, I appreciate that. Yeah, anybody wants to be a matron. It's it's pretty cool. Um So yeah, I'm I'm really thrilled. And this was really awesome movie to talk about. So thanks so much for having me, thank you for being here, and thank you for plugging our matron. And what you should also do is plug your own things, your social media, et cetera. Yeah, let's see. I. Um, I'm on Twitter. My Twitter is just my name at Chloe kunya c h l O E c U n h A. I'm I'm pretty funny. I think I try to be. Uh. I I post a lot of jokes and then I'll also like retweet like abolitionist things. I don't know. It's like a weird medley of like here my politics also jokes. Um. So yeah, that's basically what I what I do. UM can relate on Twitter? Yeah, um and uh and then other projects and things. Um. Well I am. I am actually in a lesbian vampire movie. Yes, please tell us about it. Yeah, it's called Blood of the Tributes. It's very specifically like an homage slash moderny telling of like art house euro lesbian vampire movies from the sixties and seventies, so it's very particular. It's definitely not for everybody, but it's a it's an interesting film. Um. Speaking of nudity, a lot of nudity in there. Some of it is mine. Just the heads up. Try to tell people before they watch it, because sometimes I'll have friends who are like, hey, I watched it. You're naked. I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'm French. I don't care, um, but some people do, which is why I try to warn them. There's a lot, actually a lot of equal opportunity nudity. There's some, there's some there's some penises. Okay, yeah, so there's a lot going on there. I don't I'm talking too much about that, but it's full uh on YouTube, And so it used to be on Amazon. Uh. And then Amazon is a terrible company, and like everything, they made things worse for indie filmmakers and basically pushed a lot of people out of the platform by basically being like, oh, remember that money you were getting, It turns out we don't want to give it to you anymore. Um. That's a very simplification of what happened. But yeah, and now it's on YouTube, so anybody can just watch it, um well link to it. Yeah, and I'm um also do some acting for a podcast called the Pannumbra Podcast, which is uh like a queer neo noir sci fi thing. Um, it's it's cool. It's a very cool little show. And they're there are a lot of like a lot of a lot of cute little gay teen fans there. They're all like on Tumbler and they're so cute and are so supportive. They write fan fiction. You've made it, you know, and there's fan art and someone it's really good. Um, but you don't have to be a teen gay to appreciate it. I think it's a fun show that's just usually who the who the who it appeals to at the moment, I believe sounds great and uh yeah, oh and I guess I could plug I do also how to do a virtual comedy show called Queer Comedy Hour. That's the fourth Saturday of the month at seven pm at the two mb Twitter channel. I'm plugging too many things, but yeah, it's if you see some stand up from some gays. Check that out. That's fun too, amazing. Thanks again for being here. Yeah, and uh, while you're at it, you can sign up for our Patreon ak Matreon as well at patreon dot com, slash backtel Cast. You can check us out on all of the major platforms Twitter, Instagram, Bechtel Cast go. It's where you get updates, um anything else are t public, dot com, slash. The Bechtel Cast is where you can get your merch. That's it, and I guess uh do by bye bye