Founding the Frozen Zoo

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Speaker 1: Ruby.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Rick Schwartz.

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Speaker 1: When z s World, I'm Marco went.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Amazing Wildlife, where we explore unique stories of wildlife from around the world and uncovered fascinating animal facts. This podcast is a production of iHeartRadio's Ruby Studio and San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, international nonprofit conservation organization which oversees the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park.

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Speaker 4: You know, RICKA, as you're saying all that, I'm just looking around.

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Speaker 1: It just feels so good to.

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Speaker 4: Be here, right.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of coming home for you right now, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean for our listeners.

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Speaker 5: You know, we are at the beautiful watering hole at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park, my home away from home, right, my favorite place on the planet. So what's going on here? For instance, right now we have some rhinos factor, some Southern white rhinos, which is great. You can actually hear them snorting a little on the eating breakfast.

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Speaker 6: Make sure it was a sort I hope not, but right, water Hill great spots for families, get a beautiful view of this eighteen hundred acre conservation park.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 4: And there's a reason, right signo, there's a reason why.

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Speaker 3: We're here well, because, as you mentioned, Conservation Park, this is also the home of all of our science.

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Speaker 2: Really it happens. And we wrapped up the end of season three with.

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Speaker 3: An interview with doctor Ryder about the Frozen zo because twenty twenty five is the fiftieth anniversary of the Frozen Zoo. Doctor Ryder, if you haven't heard that episode, go back and listen to it. He was one of the very first scientists to be a part of all the stuff that was happening. But honestly it did start with doctor Bernerskin. This was his idea. Unfortunately, he's not available for us to do interviews with, but we do have his son, Rolf Ernerski.

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Speaker 1: Here with us. Thrilled to be here, certainly.

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Speaker 2: Really thank you so much for taking the time coming down here.

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Speaker 4: Ranks right now.

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Speaker 1: We love it.

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Speaker 4: We're already talking before the interview started.

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Speaker 5: So many amazing stories, so we're very very happy that you're here with us joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. You've heard from Ali.

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Speaker 7: Doctor Ryder was literally the first guy that dad hired that got this whole thing started.

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Speaker 1: So I get into that well.

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Speaker 3: And he might the first guy that your dad hired, as you said, but you've got stories of writing shotgun with your dad.

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Speaker 2: Four it was even officially a thing.

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Speaker 3: Yet I would love to hear about from the beginning, how did your dad get here?

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Speaker 1: What started the ideas? Really? For those who's your dad? Yes, yes, let's go there.

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Speaker 7: You know, this is the question of My dad was a German immigrant who found his way over after the war became a doctor. But besides being extraordinarily bright, he was very curious.

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Speaker 1: His whole life. He was curious.

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Speaker 7: I ended up being born in Boston, lived there was five, then he moved us to New Hampshire Dartmouth College. He was the pathology director chairman the Darth Medical spend time.

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Speaker 4: I spent a year out there.

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Speaker 5: Oh great country, I mean, not sunny San Diego, I would say, you know, I did come back. You know, the winters are a little rough, you know, but beautiful, beautiful area.

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Speaker 7: But we love the winners as kids. So I lived there from five to fifteen. I was a hockey player, ski racer, tennis player, sorry player, loved life. My dad was always curious, as I mentioned, and the question of the day was why is a mule sterile? So this was back in This is nineteen. So we moved out here in nineteen seventies, so late sixties.

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Speaker 1: Okay, sixties.

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Speaker 2: We didn't know why this was a thing.

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Speaker 7: No mules, obviously, you know, open up the West, huge part of our culture.

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Speaker 4: Why would he even ask himself that question, Well.

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Speaker 7: He was curious scientifically, So a lot of you don't even know what a mule is. It's a cross between a horse and a donkey, so a good figure out. So Dad goes, well, let's look at their chromosomes. So it turns out the horse has sixty four chromosomes, a donkey has sixty two, a mule has sixty three, an uneven pair. They can't reproduce their sterile. So that led Dad. They go, what about a Preswoski horse? What about an onaga? What about a zebra? What about a gravy zero missus Harbin's Mountain zebra. So, as kids, wherever we went, Dad had a biopsy kit. We go to a different place, and he talked his way into getting a biopsy, and he would do the chromosomes of these animals.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 7: And for three years before he moved out of here, he published fifty chromosomes fifty different animals in an atlas every year.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: And this was more of a hobby to do the animal thing right.

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Speaker 1: His curiosity was.

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Speaker 7: When my dad died, he had written five hundred and eighty nine scientific published ers, wow, thirty one books. He was a determined individual and I was a kicker. He was very disappointed, which is another show.

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Speaker 1: You will get to that and it's like, you know, but what got you here? So that's the question.

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Speaker 7: So Dad gets recruited to help start the medical school that you see San Diego.

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Speaker 1: Oh really here, oh here? So part of this was nineteen seventy. Part of the appeal was it was close to the zoo.

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Speaker 4: Ah.

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Speaker 7: So he's thinking, so he goes, this is curiosity. So he talks himself onto a committee. Charlie Schroeder was the director who is the founder of this beautiful park was being built at the time, and my dad actually challenged him. So the Charlie, you're sitting on a diminishing asset. This is going to be extinct in thirty years, Guitarge, what are you talking about? These animals are endangered. When they die here, you're not going to be able to go to the wild to replace them. Yeah, yeah, really well, yes, they're going to be assets of those countries.

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Speaker 1: What do we do about it? He asked.

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Speaker 7: Dad goes, you need to apply science. What do you mean you need to understand how to breed them, take care of their health, feed them correctly, develop self sustaining populations. Doctor Shorter goes, well, how do you do you need to apply science? What would do you need to start a research center? So doctor Schroeder looks her. Dad goes, all right, you starting.

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Speaker 1: Wow, jumping real quick.

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Speaker 3: I love the fact too that doctor Schroder was originally a veterinarian, and even in his time of coming up, he was doing a lot of new and unusual things to try and learn about these exotic species that at the time of his.

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Speaker 2: Career no one really knew about here in the States.

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Speaker 3: So the fact that your dad's going be more creative, be more curious, and he's like, oh yeah, okay, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 7: Part of I know what people take out of this is it's individuals that are unique thinkers that create change in anything exactly right. So doctor Schroeder was one. He had the vision for this safari park, which is in the middle of nowhere. If you're from San Diego in the nineteen seventies, right where.

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Speaker 5: It's so beautiful backdrop, beautiful country, stunning rich biodiversity here en sample squa above.

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Speaker 7: Yes, so they're building this. Dad's running a research center and the first guy he hires is doctor Ryder. But in those early days I was in high school. Dad told the keepers out here, if and the animal ever dice, call me. It doesn't matter what time of day or night. So there were many nights at one o'clock in the morning, Dad would wait, come on, wrong, we gotta go. We gotta go, and we drive out here, just he and I to get us tissue Samplich. Dad knew the chromosomes. He would freeze the rest just because he didn't know what else to do with it. And that was the beginning of the Frozen Zoo.

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Speaker 5: Wow, what, I'm not a morning person, so I'm like my dad waking me up at one in the morning, you know.

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Speaker 4: But Mark to say.

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Speaker 5: The experience for the kids listening right now, what is that like? Having a scientist like that as a dad and come in here to the Safari pack. Back then, so again the message was curiosity. Now I wish I got his intelligence. I got his curiosity, But I also taught my dad about wildlife.

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Speaker 7: I was the one that was passionate about bird watching and knowing where back in New Hampshire the deer bed during the evening, the grouse Leigh, and where we could find the woodshucks and how to find it totally. And he then sort of applied the science to all of that. And so the match made here with the research center, the safari Park and the zoo is really his vision.

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Speaker 2: That's so cool.

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Speaker 4: I love the diverse different backgrounds too.

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Speaker 5: Have we all got positively affected by the beauty of this one orful organisation?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: And to your point, Marko, I mean where we are now and all we get to experience out here, a lot of it. To your dad's point, if something wasn't done scientifically and started thinking about that and preserving that a lot of these animals wouldn't be here today. A lot of animals and other zoos that we work with wouldn't be a lot of animals we put back out in the wild wouldn't be there today.

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Speaker 7: That's right, we're in front of the white rhinos. I got to tell you this story. So I was a kid, told you he was driving me out, you know, early in the mornings out here. One day, my junior, he says, Ralph, I got to drive this guy to La Airport, Tora.

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Speaker 1: But I can't do it? Can you do it?

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Speaker 7: So I drive this guy early in the morning. Don't know who is I'm like the Uber.

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Speaker 4: Driver driver right, the original Uber driver.

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Speaker 7: It turns out he was the head of the Natal Parks Board in South Africa, which is the game reserve just north of Durban, South Africa. That was the Natal Parks region. As we're driving north, he sees the sign for Line Countries Afari. He look says, watching, if we have time, can we stopping him? Uber Drivers as you So we pull in there. It turns out that they had just sent six Southern white rhinos from this little game reserve, the Omflozi Game Reserve in Natal to the Line Countries of Afari, and they arrived the day before. And I was there when they opened the crates and these animals came.

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Speaker 1: This was mid seventies. This was nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, So back then this is a completely absurd moment, I should think, for you see these big mammals like personal life changing.

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Speaker 7: And so I'm talking to the guys that were uncrating things thing they'd come on the boat with them to get there, and I'm just passionate about wildlife and he's going to need to come to visit South Africa.

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Speaker 1: I'm sixteen, you know I love you.

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Speaker 7: But well, for a gift for graduate from high school, my dad gave me the chance to go to Ian Player's Wilderness Leadership School.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 7: Two and a half weeks walking in three different game reserves with four other students, a game guard and a game warden, learning about.

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Speaker 1: Man South Africa.

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Speaker 7: In South Africa, that's incredible with these guys with rhinos, elephants and giraffes and leopards for two and a half weeks where they were literally saving the white rhinos. So the little game reserve on Filosia, it was a perfect size, they could manage poachers, perfect habitat. The rhinos growed, they had to make a decision either had to shoot them, which they couldn't do, or they had to learn how to dart them.

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Speaker 3: And just to be clear for our listeners, the reason they would have to do this is because the population was growing so well in that.

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Speaker 1: Small spiry exactly right, right, So there's themselves out.

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Speaker 7: So this goes back to the one guy, Ian Player, who is Gary Player's brother. If you're a golf for his brother, Gary Player is one of the greatest golfers of all time. Ian Player is a conservationist. He said, we got to learn how to dart them. So they developed a way to dart these animals, capture them and relocate them back to their original breeding areas. And after my two and a half weeks, I spent a month doing that.

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Speaker 1: I'm seventeen years old.

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Speaker 7: My dad let me fly by. Hey, I got kids, and that was the kind of exposure I had as a kid. And the quality of work that you were doing. So our listeners are aware of only what's going on.

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Speaker 5: You're really trying to preserve that genetic diversity in many different pockets. I mean, we're talking about that now with giant panda conservation work that we're doing with our partners out there, try.

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Speaker 4: To preserve those isolated populations.

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Speaker 5: We don't lose that genetic diversity that doctor Ryder was talking about before, but is incredible and.

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Speaker 1: Also applying science.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, so we don't read brothers and sisters, so to manage a diversity, which means we had to understand the chromosomes, the DNA of it, which came later. At the time, it was just trying to save the animals, and then we started applying science more and more, right, So that was doctor Rider.

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Speaker 3: Had mentioned that too in his interview, that he and your dad were really looking at the genetics and the need to prevent these bottlenecks, the need to really get as the diverse genetics as possible, and it's looking at all the DNA and everything else. And again going back to your dad saying, you got to apply the science.

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Speaker 1: You have to approach this with all.

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Speaker 7: That was brand new. They weren't even able to sequence a geno. Now we take it for granted, right, chromosome so as the early part. And then of course the registries were created and so we send animals around to manage diversity as much as we can. But all of these rhinos came from that little gamers in Unphilosi, South Africa.

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Speaker 1: That's amazing.

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Speaker 5: There's a part of that story I wanted to highlight too, again for the kids that are listening as well.

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Speaker 4: Like you mentioned sports your girlfriend. Admittedly I'm not a sports guy.

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Speaker 5: But I love the concept of you no matter what your passions are in life, because for those who may be not aware of some of your background in sports, can you highlight a little of that and kind of piece in like how do you involve conservation with wildlife and what you're kind of known for a egle in case people don't.

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Speaker 7: Know, well, I appreciate I am an old guy. I don't know I am an old guy. I know none of these kids know me. My son hardly remembers the players that I played, but I ended up playing in the NFL. I was with the Chargers for ten years. I was a placekicker.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have some records too, Yeah, don't play it down too.

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Speaker 4: Always tell me some of these.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to put you on the spot, but I think it's worth noting that you weren't just a player in the NFL.

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Speaker 2: You were well known and you had some records.

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Speaker 7: So I'm very fortunate I got to play with the San Diego Chargers during the Airic Coriel, who was our coach, do on Coreel and Dan Fouts as our quarterback. We really redefined offensive football, so I had a lot of opportunities to kick, and we had some success, but that isn't the way. The point is if I love sports when I was growing up and did those, but I loved wildlife. So when I ended up in the NFL, I had, unfortunately an agent who challenged me to do something with my platform.

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Speaker 1: He challenged me, what's important to you? What do he loved to do? Well?

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Speaker 7: I actually worked in the zoo in the research center in the summers during college. So I said, well, the zoo, this is my passion. So we created a program called Kicks for Critters, Oh Kicks field Goal I made. I donated money to the Zoo, and we got people in the community to do the same. And during the course of my ten years, you know, we raised over two million dollars.

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Speaker 1: That went too crass money for that time back then.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I played seventy seven to eighty seven, so yeah, back then it was kind of not but we didn't make any money as players.

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Speaker 5: I love how conscious you were of the platform that you had being in the NFL.

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Speaker 4: You know, It's something I know, Reck and I talk about all the time.

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Speaker 5: I'm always aware of the platform we have now as a spokesperson for this amazing organization, and connecting with people.

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Speaker 1: It's so true.

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Speaker 7: But Marco, part of it was, I think, if I'm really honest, it was trying to get the approval of Dad. Oh you know, I think we all know my dad was really You understand my dad's background. He was sercientific, he was bright, you know, for you have an older brother became a really world class foot and ankle surgeon, and his middle son, you know, is this kicker in the NFL wasting his life when he doing worthwhile with your life?

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Speaker 1: And ah, and so a lot of it was.

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Speaker 7: It's also how Dad and I connected, you know, from the early days driving out work, birdwatching, coming out here. And then I went through a really bad illness, was very lucky to live and that changed our relationship. And I'll get to your talking about, but my dad and I had a extraordinary relationship. And so to be able to be here to share his legacy and what the zoo, the Frozen Zoo is going to do is doing already is just humbling to me.

00:14:20
Speaker 1: Really is.

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Speaker 3: I want to get into that more in just a little bit, but I want to also follow through with kicks recritters. Oh and that became then you started going out in the community when football was no longer a thing and you started doing cancer crutters.

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Speaker 7: Right, So during my career we started kicks recrutters, and then in the off seasons, I would often get invited to speak, especially to schools. I love going to schools, And so we would bring out one of the animals at the time, we could bring out like a cheetah, and we would go to these fourth fist six graders and talk about endangered species and the plight of wildlife. And we would say, we're going to bring you a unit on endangered species to learn. And so they did that, and then some of the teachers said, what can we do? And right, so they created hands for critters. The kids would collect aluminum cans, they learn about wildlife. Everybody loved the pro except the mothers who had these sticky cans in the backs of their cars. Ants and everything else. And then the top collectors would come to the park or the zoo and we do this big extravaganza where they'd get close to animals, they'd.

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Speaker 1: Learn more, and it changed their lives, many of them.

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Speaker 7: Marco I was telling you earlier, there's a gal here who works in the Raptor Center who was one of those sixth grades and now she's working at the Safari Hork of the Zoo doing stuff there.

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Speaker 5: I wish I would have known I was collecting cans sum ego, but it was more for my hot chair. But what a cool idea, the fact that you gave the opportunity for children to feel one empowered and to get part of something bigger. And it's something we're always saying, right, what's the beauty of applying what you love and doing something bigger than yourself, you know, for for kind of a greater good.

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Speaker 4: Right. So that's an amazing program and it kept going on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still one of the largest fundraisers. It's taken different names in different incarnations.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: So I was actually intentional. I knew my career was going to end, right. I played ten years. The average careers three point one year. I played ten years.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 7: So we created a program called the Celebration for the Critters, right, and it was a big party. Really a party was underwritten by a guy named Terry Brown is big hotel, You're big support of the Zoo in San Diego. And we would have about thirty two to thirty five hundred people come to this part and now at the time, we were all single and it became sort of a way to meet people.

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Speaker 1: I was a different SSP program, but we knew.

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Speaker 7: That my career was going to end, but we knew the plight of endangered species wouldn't and so we created this event that continued on after my playing days and it turned into the Food Wine.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it still goes.

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Speaker 3: On to the property now at the San Diegozo's still one of the largest fundraisers we have for the Frozen Zoo and all the scientists that do all that work and everything else.

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Speaker 1: So it's so cool.

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Speaker 3: I mean two things I want to mention for our audience, especially you were doing football, but you had a passion for wildlife, and often we from people like what can I do? Just like the teachers were asking you, guys, what can we do? Sometimes it's just about being creative. You can still be a supporter and still actively participate in wild liff conservation without and still having to be a scientist like your dad was.

00:17:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and that's your story right there.

00:17:15
Speaker 3: Really illustrates for us is thinking what are some creative ways we can support it and do other things? Even though I'm not a scientist like that.

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Speaker 7: So one of the things that I would recognize is the world is changing, and it's changing very quickly.

00:17:26
Speaker 1: So this massive world is now a small world.

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Speaker 7: We connect through social media and see what's going on around the world in ways we couldn't do that before, and so there's a lot of things people can do learn understand what's going on. And if you think about where the future of the Frozen Zoo's going to me, this is what's exciting, you know. This is where my dad would just shake his head and go, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it.

00:17:46
Speaker 1: Really yeah, no kidding.

00:17:48
Speaker 7: When he started the Frozen Zoo, we would take biopsies, we do the chromosomes, and then he would freeze the DNA, not knowing where science would take it. And now we can bring these Southern white rhinos or these preads of horses from tissue from fiberglass, from skin that my dad collected forty years ago, turn that skin into pluripotent stem cells in vitro, fertilize and egg. Take that fertilized egg, put it in a surrogate mother, and create a cloned and save.

00:18:18
Speaker 1: A speech that's wild.

00:18:19
Speaker 5: Any I mean doctor Ryder was talking about that just he was walking in front of the Stavalski's horses and looking at Curt and Only who were products out of that program, and just being so impacted and emotional for the right reasons.

00:18:29
Speaker 7: I think, you know, for all that connectivity of the hard work. That so if you think about where this is going in the future. Right now, we can't bring tissue from around the world across borders. That means we have to reproduce the Frozen Zoo in all these different areas with diverse bile climbs, so we can save at least genetically the tissue from those animals that may be going extinct, and that means cooperation with countries around the world that we currently do a lot of with the Zoo and the hard Park here.

00:18:56
Speaker 3: But well, as we're wrapping up, I would love to asking you kind of touched on it a little bit. You have a deep connection to the Frozen Zoo and a history of the Safari Park, not only just through your dad, but through your work and what you have done. Knowing what the Frozen Zoo is capable of now and even saying if Dad could see it, he would just be shaking his head for you. What does the future look like? What does it mean to you to know that legacy of your family really is going to continue on so far into the future for conservation.

00:19:21
Speaker 7: Well, thanks Rick, I, first of all, it's humbling to be here, and I appreciate what you guys do. You do a great job. You can tell the story in the right way.

00:19:28
Speaker 1: You know.

00:19:29
Speaker 7: Again, when Dad started the frozen zo he didn't really. He actually has a quote he goes, sometimes we need to do things ruituale don't understand, say things uturee don't understand. So we started to collect this tissue. DNA science changed. Now we understand more and more of what we can do with it. Well, we don't understand everything yet, So the next step is really to recreate that footprint in different countries, activate those people that live there, the indigenous people, train them about the power and the imports of endangered species, so that when they're battling, do I kill the lion.

00:20:02
Speaker 1: Because it's eating my cattle?

00:20:04
Speaker 7: Where do I learn about conservation, save the lion, protect my cattle, but become involved in conservation myself. So it's not us doing it for them, it's teaching those young kids the importance of that, and then creating jobs for them to make conservation a way of life. And on top of that, you can layer in the science part and start to preserve this DNA in these areas where those animals live, and that's the only place they live. So I don't know where it's going to go, but where it's already come. My dad, you know, couldn't have imagined. And again it's because of the change inside totally. It gets me excited too, you know, especially doctor Ryder had mentioned. You know, it gives a lot of communities, equitable inclusive opportunities for a lot of communities around the world.

00:20:45
Speaker 4: So I'm super excited like you for that aspect of.

00:20:48
Speaker 3: It, right right well, and clearly you touched on so much just in your answer there, and like Marko was saying, it's bringing other.

00:20:53
Speaker 2: Communities and countries and places and getting them involved.

00:20:55
Speaker 3: We can't always transfer that tissue cross borders, so it's a matter of setting frozen us in other countries as well, applying the science that your dad leaned into so heavily and was so curious about at these other locations. And I can't thank you enough, but we ought to wrap it up here pretty soon. But is there anything else we didn't touch on? You would love to mention to our audience.

00:21:11
Speaker 1: You know, we have a diverse audience.

00:21:13
Speaker 7: I guess to the kids, you know, it would be to follow your passion even when it's maybe outside the box and kids make fun of you. And to this day, if I'm playing golf, I'm telling the guy, look.

00:21:24
Speaker 1: At that, there's a you know, a red stold.

00:21:25
Speaker 4: Oh my god, look at that.

00:21:26
Speaker 1: There's a and they tease me about it. But I love it.

00:21:29
Speaker 7: I love it. It was a passion of mine. So whatever your passion is, follow it. Hopefully one day it can turn into a career. But if not, don't lose the passion. My dad said something on ever hat. He said, whatever you learn in life, you'll use again sometime later in life. So be curious, keep learning. It's what you guys do. You get to share that with audience. And that was the lasson I took from my dad.

00:21:50
Speaker 5: Oh that's great for that exactly and being a bird guy, Rick, you know, I mean, that's that's a bonus.

00:21:58
Speaker 4: Give me some that's pretty good.

00:22:01
Speaker 1: I want to I gotta plug the book.

00:22:02
Speaker 3: So about two years ago, saving wildlife, AND's so many stories of you and your dad and your dad's work and everything else. We could literally do like seven episodes with you, probably not cover.

00:22:11
Speaker 1: All the stories in here.

00:22:12
Speaker 4: Read the boat.

00:22:13
Speaker 3: So yeah, if anyone's interested saving wildlife at Rolfernerska, it's a series of great stories about how it all came about.

00:22:19
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. You're really really appreciate. Thank you, Eric.

00:22:28
Speaker 4: That was so what's fun?

00:22:29
Speaker 1: Right?

00:22:29
Speaker 5: We learned so much Again, I didn't know it was a bird. Guy's a big bonus. Great for that I figured it out, and I'm sure he'd really appreciate it. And they got some pretty interesting things for the next episode.

00:22:38
Speaker 2: Right, well, exactly, speaking of birds, Marco, I'll let you say.

00:22:41
Speaker 5: Well, we may be having a flamboyance of flamingo is happening for the next episode.

00:22:46
Speaker 4: You know, I'm excited about that.

00:22:47
Speaker 5: I know Mandy is behind the scenes that we're gonna be talking flamingo.

00:22:50
Speaker 1: So the next next one, all right, So it's is the outro.

00:22:53
Speaker 3: Be sure to subscribe and tune in and join us next time when we learn about flamingos, why it's called the flamboyants and are their knees, back words, and what.

00:23:00
Speaker 1: Makes them pink? I don't know. Let's find out. Let's find out. I'm Rick Swartz, Oh, MARKO? What have a good one?

00:23:08
Speaker 2: Everybody?

00:23:14
Speaker 3: For more information about the San Diego Zoo and San Diego Zoo Safari Park, go to SDZWA dot org. Amazing Wildlife is a production of iHeartRadio. Our supervising producers are Nikkia Swinton and Dylan Fagan, and our sound designers are Sierra Spreen and Matt Russell. For more shows from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.