Decoding the Matrix Through Dependent Origination: Life Lessons from Bhante G | Bhante Jayasāra Q&A

Welcome everyone to a Wednesday evening
with the Clear Mountain Monastery
community. Uh we're very happy this
evening to have Bante Jasara with us.
Bonte Jai Bonte J. Thanks for joining
us.
>> Good to be here with our
>> Yeah. So I'll just read a quick
biography and then we'll jump right into
questions. So Bonte Jisara aka Bonte J
uh was ordained in 2016 at the age of 38
by Bonte Gunaratina of Babina Society.
Bonte shares the Dharma and leads
retreats online and in person across the
country. He specializes in showing how
the ancient teachings of the Buddha are
practical, pragmatic, and able to be put
into practice by modern people in the
modern world, just as he did as a
professional person in the world before
becoming a monastic to more deeply
pursue the path. He is the founder of
the Muga Discord community and YouTube
channel and after several years as a
nomad monk is now hoping to uh start the
process of nurturing an in-person
community hopefully in Colorado at some
point in the the coming coming years.
So,
uh Bonte J, I know you studied uh
cultural anthropology um in school and
all three of us are what anthropologists
might call convert Buddhists. Um,
>> could you describe what is a convert
Buddhist and are there any major
conversion experiences that you had?
What were you converting from? What did
you convert to? And what was the major
conversion event?
>> Well, I guess I would describe a convert
Buddhist as somebody who essentially was
not born in a Buddhist culture, right?
Being inculturated by Buddhism from a
young age. I'm sure we've all seen like
when they bring the little kids to
Adonna and you they say bow and it's
like the little like two-year-old kid
you know bowing and stuff like that. So
that you know the the you know us like
like myself and you guys we kind of
started when we were much older. So
we're you know uh not born into it.
>> So I guess uh for myself I was raised
Catholic. I was born Catholic. I was an
alter boy. I went to Catholic school my
whole life until college. Um
and uh by the time I was like 16, I knew
that I wasn't a Catholic. It's just I um
from a young age I kind of felt more
connected with Eastern ways of thought
and eastern philosophy. Um even like
rebirth. One joke I always tell people
is but it's real. it's that, you know,
it's actually happened. Um, I can
remember being like nine or 10 years old
in alter boy on the, you know, on the
altar with the priest holding the book
while he's doing the benediction.
And I was thinking, was I Julius Caesar
or Alexander the Great in a former,
which one was I? And, you know, when I
look back at that, as I look back at my
life when I became a monk, I was like,
wait a second, you know, that's that's
quite interesting. Um, but from what I
say is like by the time I was from 16 to
age like 29ish, I would I would say I
was a student of all religions and a
practitioner of none. Um, like you
mentioned, I you know, anthropology was
my major in college and I've always been
a student of human nature and human
culture. Um, I love it and it also, you
know, kind of um impacts how I read the
sutas as well. But um and so but like
around age 28 I started really kind of
wanting to have a spiritual path and by
that point I had studied all the
different religions enough that I knew
that if I was going to have a spiritual
path it was going to be Buddhism. Um I
didn't know what type of Buddhism you
know as somebody you know kind of
growing up in in the 90s I was very
influenced uh by Tibetan Buddhism at
that time. there was a bunch of movies
like Seven Years in Tibet and the Daly
Lama was big then. So kind of Tibetan
Buddhism is what I knew. Um, and then
you know, so I was like, "Okay, I think
I'm going to try this Buddhist thing."
And, uh, the the first kind of little
monastery, a little vihara I found was
about 40 minutes from me in New Jersey.
And, uh, it it was a
vadrana, I think Mongolian, Mongolian
vadriana monastery, just a typical kind
of ihara, like a little house, one monk.
Um, and that's kind of where my journey
started. But over like you know like a
year and a half two years going through
kind of realizing okay Tibetan's not
really for me um my you know going to a
couple Mahayana places um like a Chinese
Chan monastery up in northern New Jersey
uh Bodhi monastery where actually I
would become a Buddhist where I took the
refuge in the precepts for the first
time um also wasn't for me. It was kind
of like when I found Terravada and then
when I found especially the Sutas, it
was like a missing puzzle piece I always
had my whole life. It would felt like
coming home. Um and all these years
later pretty much believing at this
point I this is not my first life as a
monk. I I understand why I came home. Um
so that's kind of the short of it.
>> Thank you, Bonnie.
I had uh who there we go. I I grew up
strangely enough somewhat Buddhist and
uh and yet I also had that coming home
sense. Um and you know part of your
teachings are really uh known for
really keeping their integrity and
taproot in the sutas. And certainly, you
know, I've tuned in to many of your
teachings at Empty Cloud and elsewhere,
um, where you kind of move through the
early Buddhist texts and I know a lot of
us like when we first encounter the
Buddhist words, just the sense of
luminosity and wisdom that shines
through. So, one question I love to ask
monks who are grounded in the EBTS, the
early Buddhist texts. Um, what can you
give us your uh two two of your favorite
sutas, one well-known and one hidden
gem,
and tell us why?
>> Uh, well known has to be Salasuta, the
simile of the arrow. Um,
that was one of those sutas I I remember
reading years ago and it just felt like
Buddha was being my psychotherapist.
Like it's just like it was like diagnos.
>> Okay,
>> you're back. Sorry, Bonte. Keep going.
>> Gotcha. No worries. Um, yeah. So the the
way he kind of basically calls out our
our our underlying tendencies in that
suta, you know, it's like what does
somebody do when they have a pleasant
experience? Well, they attach to it.
That's the anusia. That's the
underlying, you know, I I like to
translate as like underlying habitual
tendency, right? And what's the
underlying habitual tendency? in we uh
have an unpleasant experience the Buddha
says because we don't know another way
of escape it's to drown ourselves in
pleasant experience
>> right so this is actually and I later
found out that going to various Buddhist
recovery places this is like a Bible
suta and Buddhist recovery places
because it's really pointing to that um
you know why we do the things that we do
so that's I would say is kind of
probably one of my favorite um known
pretty well-known ones. I think one that
in my the last half of of my Buddhist
path that is really deserves to be way
more known is the baruta
the the burden. Um and actually I I
realize that the uh the forest the um
Yeah. Yeah. The forest book and it had
it when I went went to a buy Gary for
the first time. I was like, "Oh, this is
great."
>> Yeah.
>> The book actually has it. What's that
>> in the newer edition in the last 10
years before that it wasn't there.
>> Yeah. And it has like the second half
where really it's the verses the second
half that it has. It doesn't have the
the suta end. But still, it's um I was
happy to see that um because it really
>> again I think it's one of those sutas
where it's a page
But it encapsulates the whole teaching.
>> I'll teach you up the Oh, go ahead.
>> Oh, no, no, please just go. I a
discourse on this recently, including
the part about you doing a military side
style
backpack and really
>> Oh, yeah.
>> intuiting the power of this. But no,
please describe it in in detail a bit
more.
>> No. So the Buddha says, "I'll teach you
the burden, the carrier of the burden,
the picking up of the burden, and the
laying down of the burden."
So the burden is the five aggregate
subject to clinging, which in short is
dooka, right? So you're carrying around
your suffering like in this big burden
of your suffering. Um, and this also
connects to the way I kind of I don't
remember where I first heard it years
ago, but somebody kind of like used the
said, you know, if you break down duka,
the way you can kind of describe it is
as that which is difficult to bear,
right? So that also matches this kind of
burden, this like backpack motif of, you
know, you're carrying around your
baggage. The Buddha is like you're
carrying around this burden right which
is your suffering
and then the person um the carrier of
the burden is the person the pugala
which uh Bonte Sughatu actually recently
um made a post about this that I was
happy to see because I've kind of always
suspected when we're talking about the
pugala we're talking about we're going
into anata here right because there's a
suta where the Buddhist um no It's
saruta is asked identity identity what
is identity and the answer is the five
aggregate subject to clinging
right so the Buddha is literally
connecting the creation of identity with
the creation of suffering
>> so the Buddha is saying that we create
this burden we have we create this
person and through our our craving we
lift it up we carry it around
and when we let go
which is the third noble truth
Right? When we let it go, then we have
cessation. We're free. So you see the
noble truths in this too, right? The
picking up of the burden. That's the
second noble truth. The burden itself is
the first noble truth. So it's like the
noble truth in this very profound little
suta. Um that that I wish more teachers
taught because I can't you know there's
many sutas where it's like how come I
never saw this? I never all the
thousands of dharma talks I heard over
years and years I never heard any
teacher you know talk this is one of the
benefits of reading the sutas you find
these hidden gems
>> yeah know it's a fascinating it's so
small and it's just in the suta nikaya I
>> believe but yeah just suta is so big and
just yeah you know one page as you say
um I think we'll probably go more kind
of back and forth into maybe a little
bit more of your biography as you go
which people can see the last 17 years
of if they go to your YouTube channel on
Muga Secika. Um really it's a
fascinating document kind of a travel
log of a spiritual journey from you as a
as a layman 17 years ago as you're I
think you're still working at the time
and just I'm starting this channel and
I'm going to talk about my journey into
into Buddhism and my love of Buddhism
and all the way through uh until you're
moving towards homelessness, moving
towards becoming a monk. your ordination
is there and then your basically up
until the present is all there as well.
Um, one of the videos there was when you
were still as a layman going through
your bookshelf and
>> to look like many of our bookshelves did
we before we know with the the four main
nikayas and then teachings from Ajantiso
Ajancha Ajan Brah and a bunch by Bonte
Gi which is where you went to end up
ordaining. Um, and he himself has such a
focus on the sutas. um and your love of
sutas, it makes total sense that you
would kind of click with him and have
that uh shared affinity. Could you take
us back to your your time with with
Bonte Gi? I think you lived with him for
five or seven years and um yeah, tell us
what was that like? Any stories that you
can bring through? Uh would love have
only met him on a number of occasions.
We interviewed him twice, but certainly
haven't lived with him for any period of
time. So,
So yeah, I um I
went to Bavana for about three years
before I went to live there as a monk
and I was doing retreats. Um so like the
first time 2011,
yeah, 2011 Thanksgiving retreat was my
first ever terabvada retreat. I had done
a retreat with the Mahayana at the place
that I mentioned where I where I took
the refuge and precepts in 2008. Um, but
so I went to this place and I and I got
there and I just felt so
I was like I I remember when I you know
back before cell this was well I did I
have a smartphone anyway I don't
remember but anyway I had a GPS unit and
um when I was leaving Bobin that first
time I set Bobin as home on my GPS.
It's like this this is my home. I can
tell like this is because by that point
I had already had thoughts of I wanted
to ordain. I didn't know where. Um but
you know after that first visit there I
was like okay yeah this is I think this
is it. This is the place. Um you know it
was only a five hour drive which is not
bad considering there's few places in
America. Unless you're lucky enough to
live near these kind of places it's
going to be a hike to get there. Um
and so interestingly enough actually I
didn't have a relationship much with
Bonte Gurata until I lived there because
when I started going there he was going
through multiple heart attack period
like he was actually quite ill. Um and
he wasn't really teaching much. Um I I
got to know better Silananda who is a
Sri Lanka monk who was there for about
12 years. It wasn't really until, you
know, after the three years of visiting
that I really kind of left the world and
went to move there that I really got to
know Bonte. Um, and you know, it's one
of those things where
he is
there's no kind of air, right? It's like
you just walk in and he looks and he
just smiles and he'll say, you know,
hello or and and it's there's very and
he's like that kind of behind the scenes
as well, you know? is like you know
obviously when you know when we all do
dharma talks maybe there's a little bit
of a kind of orator that comes out but
when when a monk who you know is kind of
giving a talk is basically the same as
if you were driving them around and
talking to them um you know which I also
tried to be because I I think that's the
very kind of genuine way to be um you
know it's just kind of really nice to uh
to have that experience um with him. I
guess it there's a few things. It's I
can't believe it's been like it was 12
years ago that I moved there. Time is
flying. Um
but one one of some of the memories I I
remember um most is like I remember when
I first moved there I think maybe I was
in Anagara
and
you know it's interesting my my practice
a year two years as I was in Babina I
felt like my practice was feeling like
it was getting worse than when I was a
lay person like I felt even like my um
my meta was kind of going away. didn't
feel as powerful and as strong and all
these kind of things and and I was
bringing Bonte his kind of like evening
uh drink in his room and I asked him and
you know I said Bonte you know like I
don't have the feeling of meta like I
used to and all this stuff and he looked
at me and he said um Jasara until you
have a deeper understanding of ana your
meta will only be skinn deep
>> and that kind of like was like
H I fully understand what he means now.
I and I agree with it and I teach the
same I understand it. But that was a
real kind of like very profound thought
that I never really
I didn't connect,
you know. So, so like being able to live
with him, you kind of get these little
glimpses. But on the other hand, to be
honest with you,
and you know, maybe I don't know if this
is the same way with Lor Pasino, but
when you're kind of well known,
you're living at the monastery, but
you're fighting with the world for their
attention,
>> you know, because like I I can remember
just people all the time just calling
Bonte and trying to get contact with
Bonte and and so, you know, like my kind
of
my like living there and growing there.
I didn't have kind of like what you
would think of as like a kind of
traditional tie like you know like I'm
the student and you know these kind of
things and Bonte Gunarat said to me um
Jasara you came to me a mature meditator
and I said yeah but I'm a baby monk
I I need you know so I'm a mature
meditator sure but I'm a baby monk let's
but yeah so there there is that kind of
unfortunate thing where you're you're
compet competing with a lot of people
who want to be, you know, take the time
of the famous monk. Um,
>> Bonte, would you um
>> Sorry. Um,
>> no, no, go ahead.
>> When we interviewed Bonte Gunarat, I
think he's what, 103 now? 10
>> 98 I think he
>> 98. I mean, and he was I think he's been
in robes since 12 or so. And just one of
the most bright, luminous hearts I've
ever met. Um
and and he also said when we asked him
the one teaching that had resonated with
him through the years he said Anicha
perception of impermanence um which is
what you're pointing to here. So how do
you see his statement? How would you
explain it? How does a true
understanding of niche bring about meta?
Mhm. So I would say
the more and more
I my kind of insight grows the more I
really see Anicha as like the central
teaching of all of Buddhism in a way. Um
and when you think about like the the
three characteristics of existence right
the the characteristic anicha is the
Buddha is telling us sankara that
everything you will ever experience is
unstable and undependable.
It's impermanent, but that's that's kind
of an overused word, but really that
kind of feeling unstable and
undependable
everything,
right? But we actually don't live like
that, right? We we don't live what I
like to say these days is like, you
know, the environmentalist people will
say we don't live in line with nature,
right? As modern humans. And I will
agree with that statement, but from a
Buddhist perspective, right? you know
dharma you know the nature the reality
of things we don't like to live in line
with the nature of reality
>> i.e that everything is unstable and
undependable.
So we kind of delude ourselves and we
try to we build like a fantasy world
around ourselves, a bubble that we're
trying to um protect ourselves from the
reality that is a niche.
M
>> and so to me the more you understand in
nature the more you understand the state
of the nature of this reality of the
ssaric state it is just so natural that
all of a sudden goodwill for all beings
it doesn't matter oh I don't like this
person they're bad in this life or
whatever yeah well we've all been bad
like the way I say it is like every
single every single person you will ever
meet has an untold lifetimes amount of
stories of good and bad deeds.
>> We've all been pick whoever you think is
the worst person that's ever existed.
We've all done that. And we've all been
pick the the person you've done, you
know, who's the best person you ever
think that has ever existed. We've been
that.
>> Yeah. You were Caesar the Great.
>> Exactly.
So when you kind of have that that
understanding,
it's very natural that whoever you even
if you're like with somebody who is a a
serial killer, a horrible person, etc.,
it's just very natural that you just
have this goodwill towards them.
>> Doesn't mean that you condone what they
said or anything. You know, I when I I
was a child protective service worker
before, you know, I became a monk and I
sat across people who were like child
molesters and gang leaders of gangs and
things like that. And even in those
early days, I always tried to make sure
that to remember I'm talking to a human
being first.
>> Everything else second. We have to deal
with business. We have to deal with law
stuff. Okay. But first human being and
when you really understand in each and
that meta grows it's like whoever it is
whatever they've done they're a fellow
sibling in suffering
>> right they are a fellow being in ssara
>> and again doesn't mean you condone what
they've done doesn't mean that they
probably need to spend the rest of their
life in jail or whatever right you're
not condoning that the bad things
they've done but you see at a more
transcendent level and that transcendent
level is
that all beings are siblings in
suffering. All beings
um are deserving of your goodwill and
friendliness if only for the the
development of or the destruction of you
know anger and ill will and resentment
in your own mind. Um so that's kind of
how I see Anicha and Meta being
connected. The deeper you understand the
nature of reality, the easier it is to
have natural goodwill for all beings.
You know, not like when somebody's kind
of new and they're doing meta and like
may all beings except for that person be
well, happy and be, you know, even I
remember my mind the same way. Not that
person,
not those people, not that group, you
know, this pol partical party, not that
one, whatever. I remember my mind being
that way. Um
>> but yeah
>> Bonte when um when I was an Anagaraa um
Bonte G came to visit a Bayiri for about
a week or two and I was very very
inspired and I remember um I was going
through a bit of a bit of a rough time
in my monastic life and I remember just
so happened that I kind of fell in love
with the 28 Buddhas protection chant
which is this kind of uh protection
chant roughly based on the Atanatia
Suta. So, it's not really straight from
the sutas. And but I came up to Bonte G
one morning. Nobody else was in the
hall. I didn't have to fight for his
attention. And came up and I said,
"Bante, I'm so inspired by the 28
Buddha's protection if you would give me
your blessing and tell me it was a good
thing. I would chant it every day for
the next year." And he said there is no
dhamma in the 28 days of
he said uh no dhamma you should memorize
the dhamachaka pavatanasut the Buddha's
first discourse so I did that memorized
that chanted it every day but do you
have any similar kind of um spicy bonte
gi stories I mean he's such a you know
small frame and the the meta is massive
but it can also I felt it on those two
weeks. It can be spicy at times as well.
Do you have any spicy bontage stories
maybe specifically uh in relation to you
>> trying to think
>> relation
any more on hands?
>> It's been so long. Um well this is again
the great
it's important that you are
straightforward right like I I guess I
mean the thing the only thing that comes
to my mind is I remember when um Bonte
Uber who's kind of like a disciple of
Bonte Gunnaratau I mean he's now been in
robes I think by this point 60 years or
close to it um so he's what a senior
monk in Washington DC and his mother
died and Bonte we were at this funeral
and Bonte G was you know giving kind of
like a a talk and coming from the west
like I kind of expected you know like
what you say at a funeral and Bonte G
just goes right into like Dharma and
Anita and Nibana and I was like whoa
this is interesting like you know like
because just the kind of the the
incultteration of the west was like
you're not going to be like you know oh
yeah this person is you know you're
probably never going to see them again
they they're being in Sara wish them,
you know, to attain the sweet bliss of
Nibbana. And I'm like, "Oh, this is so
so yeah, he was always very
when it comes to the Dama, he was always
a what they call a straight shooter,
right? He he didn't want to mess around
like another one kind of what in the
same vein is meta." Like he would one
one of his statements that I still use
myself is meta is not magic,
>> right? because there's lots of kind of
almost like newagy kind of vibes about
meta and things like that and um that's
not the kind of meta you see in the
sutas right and so
so he's very straight on like what is
meta um and you know really what meta is
is about your own mind right it's about
it's about eradicating all the ill will
in your own mind um and developing that
fe feeling of friendliness for all
beings. You know, you're not really like
sending out vibes and things like that.
Um,
but on the other hand, we also know that
the benefits of meta can cause some real
magical stuff.
>> Yeah.
>> I've experienced that myself. Weird
stuff like spiders doing walking
meditation with me and stuff like that.
So, yeah. So, meta is very powerful. But
you know Bonte wants to make sure that
you know
at least from the the the suta the early
Buddhist text perspective what is what
the Buddha really taught and Bonte
Guraratina just like most Sri Lankan
monks he's very wellversed in the
abidama
>> the commentary he knows all that stuff
he knows all of it um but he has always
just chosen to teach from the sutas um I
guess what one thing one one more thing
that still is very profound to this day.
I don't think I was living there yet. I
think I was at a retreat and it was
during a Q&A
and I don't remember the question but
Bonte G said he says I'm not a teacher.
The Buddha is the only teacher. I'm just
a kanomita.
And that was like yes
that was very profoundly even to to this
day I don't like being called a teacher
like when when people say where are you
going somewhere I'm like yeah I'm going
to share dharma right like I don't like
it's like because I'm just sharing the
dharma right I'm just a kalanita I
really loved that
that kind of statement right and of
course we know from the sutas the Buddha
says that he's the best kalanamita as
well um but yeah that was to have to see
somebody who's like you saying so many
years in rows been you know teaching for
so long who in my opinion is definitely
among the top dharma teachers in the
world in terabat at least um to see
somebody kind of have that humility um
it was very profound I really enjoyed
that and I was like yep that's that's
going to be me too
>> the Buddha is the only teacher
>> I remember um at the end of my interview
with Bonte G I asked him if he had any
advice for me personally and he said
don't disrobe
and uh
>> um and I do want to ask about that
spider doing walking meditation or other
kind of similarly uh amazing stories but
um perhaps before that um
you talk about how Bonte G kind of
didn't take up that burden of identity
of the teacher and and even the Buddha
when he attained enlightenment and said
who should I hold as my teacher one who
dwells without respect dwells in suffer
suffering and he says I'll dwell with
reverence to the dharma. Um and you
talking about you know more and more
seeing like in the bar suta that this
burden is uh of identity is intimately
linked with suffering and um
I'm curious how
if you know without identity and with
this deep understanding of impermanence
and the fact that all these things
you're building and touching will fall
away.
How do you you know how do you navigate
how do you how do you find your your
path through sanssara bonte and like
what guides you and and what advice
would you have for someone listening who
is you know caught between burdens and
distractions and Netflix and politics
and anger and just trying to find what
the dharma wants them to do or or to
follow a life of dharma. How should they
tune into that um without just relying
on identity? How does one follow the
dharma in life? How how have you
>> Well, I I think especially for somebody
who's kind of new, it's very important
to under for them to understand that
gaining insight into anata is not like
disassociation or like some kind of
mental illness or like it's like scary.
It's actually not. It's blissful. I mean
in one of the chantings that you know I
think it might be in the Amirati
chanting as well but it's like the the
destruction or the abandoning of the
conceit I am is the highest bliss
>> right every time we chant that I'm like
that's so wonderful
that's so nice and you know it's one of
those things where
you really have to
experience
the abandoning of the conceit I am. And
I don't mean like at at a full level,
but like experience how you kind of go
through this this checklist of
investigation of is this me, mine, and
myself?
Oh, no, it's not. Actually, I see that.
Is this me, mine, and myself? No, it's
not. Actually, I see that. Right. And so
is like, is your political view me,
mine, myself, is it? How did you develop
it? Where did it come from? Right? is is
this view this. So, it's kind of like
this
starting to deeply understand
how the causes and conditions have come
together to create you,
>> right? It's like it's we're talking
about the creation of identity, right?
We're born, we're given a name and we're
born into a culture, so that kind of
shapes us a little bit. were born into a
family that shaped us a little bit. But
then we're not that old, you know, even
like a year old when we start saying,
"Okay, I like this. I don't like that."
We're building this character. We're
building this creation. And as we get
older, we solidify our views even more.
And it's through those solidifying of
the views that we start to create more
friction, more suffering. What does Ajan
Cha talk about? like holding but not
strongly,
>> you know, just holding very lightly. Um,
and that's very why Aishan Cha is
amazing. I love his teachings. Um,
but the the problem is we're just
holding on and we're really attached to
I am this. It's like when when the
Buddha has the three knowledges, right?
And he says, um, you know, I was of such
and such name, such and such clan. This
was my food. this like he remembers all
like the like you know what the person
was and what their attachments and what
the you know their identity was even you
know those past lives. Um
so but as we like father noble path as
we develop the path it is very natural
that your insight and wisdom arises and
you just don't
you you don't feel so strongly attached
to these things that keep us wrapped up.
One of my favorite sayings is actually
not from Terravada. It's Millerreppa,
right? Millera says, "The affairs of the
world are never ending. Do not neglect
your meditation."
Sad do. Very good. I I've heard some
good things about this Miller. I like
that statement, you know. But that's so
wise. That's so kind of
but it's as you de develop the path you
just naturally want to
hold things a lot more lightly because
you realize it's suffering if you hold
it too strongly
>> and then eventually as you go more
subtle you realize actually it's
suffering holding on to it at all
and you have your nibida arising your v
your viraa arising and then your vimui
just put it down and you're You lay down
the burden,
right? When I do my guided meditations,
I give a little thing about like laying
down the burden for now, right? Just for
the time of the meditation, lay down the
burden.
>> And I say, don't worry. There'll be
plenty of time to pick it back up again
later. The reason I say that is because
when I started doing it myself, I
noticed it's like, I don't want to lay
down the burden. I'm like, ah, you
stupid idiot. Okay, no, don't worry. You
can pick it up later. If you really want
it, you're really this dumb. you can
pick it up later.
>> So, yeah, I I don't know. I hope I
answered most of that, but
>> yeah,
>> the the one little bit there that I'm
curious about is like if you're holding
things lightly, fair enough. But is
there something that kind of gleams that
draws you on in line with Dama? Like I
know you're creating something in
Colorado now. like
>> oh
>> is is there something once you're
letting go of all those identities a bit
how would you articulate what's left
guiding you or or would you how you feel
that
>> so I would say that I had some insights
into anata fairly early on
maybe like at this point maybe like 15
years ago or so but it wasn't until more
recently that I understood more deeply
about dependent origination that I
understood. So anata is okay you have a
thought arise in your mind and before
you just automatically accepted it then
you realize oh wait this is not me I
don't have to accept this thought
and so that's the kind of starting to
understand anata
but the deeper understanding is okay I
don't have to accept this thought as me
mind myself but
I created that thought in the past and I
fed it and It's come back
>> like I I'm I've literally created the
causes and conditions for anger and
hatred and every all these things that
arise in my mind to come. They're not
just coming out of anywhere. The Buddha
is very clear like things don't just
magically happen right things happen
when this arises that arises. When this
ceases that ceases so everything that's
arising in my mind I have fed right the
Buddha talks about ahara starving
nourishment feeding something and
starving something so whatever is
arising in my mind I've fed it in the
past I kind of the the the image that
came in my mind was like a swing like
you're pushing a kid on a swing
and you're giving the momentum and of
course every kid who has ever won a
swing always wanted to do the thing
where they go all the way around, right?
Push it and see if they can get it all
the way around. And I it's like, wait a
sara. That's like, okay, this anger has
come into my mind. I fed it. I've given
it to momentum. It's like I've pushed it
and it comes back around,
right? And every time it comes back
around, I keep pushing it and it keeps
coming it coming back stronger, more
often, faster.
But what if I say, "Oh, wait a second.
Okay, this is not me, not mine, not
myself. However, that's not that alone
does not have it be become abandoned in
my mind. How about I starve it? It comes
back around. I don't push it. No
momentum. I let it go.
Comes back around again, but it's
weaker. Oh,
okay. Not touching it. Comes back around
again. It's weaker. So, you start to
realize actually, well, this is the
process. This is actually what is
happening. We kind of create another
level of identity over it.
But the processes of volitional
formations, choices that are being made
that are creating causes and conditions
for things to arise in the future. So
when you kind of know the hack, you know
how to kind of hack into that system,
you're like, okay, well, if I want to
lead to awakening, this is what I have
to do. these are this is what I have to
do to develop the no path is essentially
kind of doing that right it's creating
the causes and conditions for the
abandoning of your suffering
>> and there doesn't need to be a kind of
identity over that
it's the causes and conditions you are
you it's like it's like um in the matrix
when Neo first sees the things like
decode behind and he's like and like he
realizes is he can actually like adjust
it and things like that, right? And
that's what it's like. It's like, "Oh,
wait a second. Oh, this is dependent
origination. This is what the Buddha is
talking about. This is the key. Okay.
I'm going to now try to do my best to
create the causes and conditions for
suffering to be lessened, not
increased."
Bonte, could you talk a little bit about
um your online communities uh
specifically the uh discord ser server
the students on the path or muga and
also could you just answer what is dama
palooa?
So yeah, um it's actually 10 years. 10
years this May um coming up we'll have
the Discord. Um
so I've always been kind of related to
my YouTube channel
because I was my the only Buddhist I
knew in my daily life because I didn't
have monasteries near me. Most of my
learning and everything for years was
online.
First time I ever heard a Buddhist monk
talk live was in a virtual world program
called Second Life with the Buddhist
monk who Tennis not tennis um Bonte
utadamo actually Bonte Utadamo was in
had a little virtual monk character and
I sat on a little virtual monk you know
meditation seat in a virtual deer park
and I heard him speak like I'm hearing a
Buddhist monk for you know for the first
time ever. It wasn't like at you know a
local vihara or something like that. Um,
so
because of kind of my practice in my
formative years of learning Buddhism was
online,
I um I'm very keen of kind of like
paying attention to new ways that I can
share the dharma. Like if if you've
heard of a social media, I'm on it.
Doesn't mean I'm actually using it.
Like there's like just to test it. I'll
go I'll go on it and I'll see like I
mean technically I'm on Tik Tok but I've
really not done much or you know my my
nephew who's 21 is kind of starting to
help me and maybe some other people are
starting to help me because Tik Tok
seems to be the place. But um but so I'm
just trying to always like keep up on
like what new avenues can the dharma be
shared on?
>> And the discord came up and I was like
oh wait a second
this looks like an interesting thing.
You know what it was on Reddit I got
invited to a interfaith discord. I'm
like what the heck is a discord and what
that doesn't sound very Buddhist. What
is going on with this discord thing? Um,
but I was invited and I saw it. I'm
like, and I I was a video gamer before I
was a monk. So, I was like, I, you know,
kind of knew those kind of things when
you play games with people. Um, and
that's what Discord was created for. It
was created for gamers. Um,
>> and I was looking at I'm like, "Oh, this
is good for a Buddhist community. This
is really good."
>> Um, and it just started out with like
four or five of us. It was very small.
who is um like myself and one or two
people from Babina, a young friend,
supporter of mine um and also a um uh
who is now venerable Pasan Bikuni uh
there Bikuni in Australia um and I think
it was Ayasant Chari also an Australian
Bikuni who venerable Pasina knew um as a
lay person. So we kind of just had this
very small group that got together. Um
and even since almost the beginning
we've been reading sutas every every
Sunday. We've gone through um we've gone
through digaya majanaya sut samutinaya
all the early Buddhist text um kudaka
you know the kudaka nikaya and now we're
in the angutura. So I think we have
another year or so of weekends at least
to finish the Angutra. But we've been
doing it for a long time and you know
the the amount of people on it has like
kind of you know just waves. People come
and it gets busy and then kind of people
go away but we're still kind of there 10
years later just still doing the same
thing. There we have a Sudama who's a
very senior bikuni in um North Carolina
and who's also kind of a lineage sister.
all from Bonte G, right? Um so we she's
on there and and um venerable now is
also who's six Vasa now I think. So
they're on there. So it's like we have
the four-fold assembly most Sundays that
comes together and reads the sutas and
it's just great you know and of course
then there's other activities that we do
as well but that's like the main
activity. um like people will say it
like you know type in the morning
meditating for a half hour whoever's
around who wants to join just you know
can join and you know I give like a
little greeting every morning so it's
just a kind of like just trying to
foster a community although sometimes I
do neglect it I'm I don't show up on the
discord for a day or two because I'm
busy doing other things or I just want
to you know kind of be by myself but I
have wonderful mods and people who uh
Actually, I think two of my mods are now
monastics in different places like Empty
Cloud and things like that. But
>> DMA Palooa.
>> Oh, Dama Palooa. Thank you. Yes. So, at
the beginning of COVID, I wanted to
because that I was out of Bavina at that
point and I said, you know what? I want
to do like a a weekly stream and I said,
Monday, I think is a good night because,
you know, it won't compete. most people
are not going to have a stream on Monday
night.
And uh I just kind of wanted to I don't
know where the name came I mean the name
came from. I was a I was a kind of metal
head guitarist you know in the 90s and
and uh you know you la palooa and things
like that. Of course, I, you know, you
look it up. Actually, this is a word
that comes from like the late 1800s,
right? It's not like, you know, they
kind of took it from back then. Um, and
it's like a festival. And so, like
Dhamma Palooa is like a festival of
dharma, right? And that's how I
introduce it every it's the festival of
dharma where the mugase community does a
variety of dharma related activities.
>> Do a little chanting, do some
meditation, um, you know, dharma talks,
Q&A, suta reading. It's kind of a little
different each time. Um, we do it
sometimes we do a thing called sutar
roulette which is kind of a fun thing
that we've developed. Um, and the way it
works is we'll do a so I'll say a number
I'll say okay we're going to do the
samuta naya tonight a number between one
and 20.
>> Okay. And they pick a number and then
the second number. So it's like we're
picking the the chapter and the suta
number and then we're just reading
whatever that suta is. So it's like like
a fun way to kind of involve people and
just what we don't know what we're going
to read. We're going to just randomly
pick a number and then we're going to
pop it up on students central and we're
going to read it. So so this is kind of
like I try to you know make it
interesting and fun and also have fun
myself. So
>> on the subject of of community, Bonte is
you know you these online communities
have been kind of a unifying thread
through even this period of being a
nomadic monastic
but you also really have gotten quite an
experience with stopping in at you know
society living at empty cloud you've
spent time at a Bayeri you visited Aloka
Vihara you visited or Pana Vihara
elsewhere
>> KBV
>> KBV um so you've seen all these
different models of monasteries in the
modern age and um and now you're you
know contemplating starting your own
vihar in Colorado and I'm curious you
know having seen so many models of how
people are holding this balance or
tension between you know the ancient
Buddhist form and modern kind of uh
understandings or dynamics um you know
how how much do you
make room for uh kind of modern
interpretations of things. How much do
you ground in these old structures? Um
may maybe the angle I'm actually most
interested in is is just to ask yeah
what what community dynamics have you
seen most kind of nourishing for
westerners ordaining these days? like
how would you structure a monastery for
uh three, four, five, six, seven
monastics that you know after all these
different examples you've seen?
>> Well, I I mean to be honest with you in
terms of like
in terms of training young monastics
in my opinion Abai Giri has most of the
best ways of doing it. I really believe
it's not for everybody. Um but
you know it's like at Bob society there
were young monastics that ordained one
ordained right before me and the other
one ordained right after and they
they're they just end up disroing and I
realize it's like especially for young
monastics.
You need like a support system and a way
of nurturing them and nourishing them so
that they can kind of get through the
the hard, you know, parts of
transitioning to becoming a monastic and
all of that. And and I think in my
experience, Abayiri has a lot of that
right. Not everything, not not
everything that I would personally do,
but um a lot of it right, I think. Um,
but one of the things that I kind of see
in the more traditional Buddhist spaces
in terms of monasticism is when you read
the sutas and you read like the the the
vineia really deeply, you kind of see
that in a lot of ways that's not how
like living in a monastery is like you
know you read like how like you know the
senior monastic is supposed to look upon
the junior as a son and the son, the the
junior to the monastic as a father. And
if you know there's a the senior
monastic um you know has a doubt or has
a problem or or is kind of not doing
something right, the junior monastic
should call them out. Like it's a it's a
very interesting dynamic
um that the Buddha set up the Buddha
encouraged himself that doesn't seem to
be it seems to have been lost over
thousands of years of development in
different countries and you know doing
the countries kind of developing the way
they do things themselves. Um,
so the kind of like the balance you were
talking about, I personally feel like
there's some people monastic wise
who are kind of very like, how should I
say like the the the view is like like
all this old stuff is very like
misogynist and this is bad. We're
throwing away the whole thing. We're
going to start all new.
>> And I think that's wrong to be honest
with you. And then there's other people,
you know, more specifically, you know,
people who are coming, you know, born in
in Buddhist cultures and they'll say
this is the right way and you you can't
do all these things. This is not, you
know, this is not Buddhism. And I also
think in the context of America that
that's also wrong for people outside of
their culture. Um, so it's kind of like
how do you find a balance between
having real respect and tr and carrying
forth the wisdom of Sri Lankan Buddhism,
Thai Buddhism, Burmese Buddhism because
there's a lot of great stuff in all of
that and how do you bring that while
also kind of adapting to the new world
>> and so that's kind of been something
that I think about a lot because I do
think that things should change but I
also don't think you we should go too
far because I do feel we should be
grounded in the vignia
but even the Buddha gives the Buddha so
the Buddhist says one thing I I forgot I
think I was talking to some monastics so
we kind of talking about this oh I think
it was during one of my last the shutter
readings on the discord
I said think about what the Buddha had
done the Buddha on the one hand says my
disciples do not even breach the
smallest rules for the sake of their own
life, which is something that is just
straight to my heart and I really want
to live like that, but it's really hard
to do that outside of a Buddhist country
or a place with lots of support. On the
other hand, the Buddha also says when
I'm gone, the m the monastic can abolish
the the lesser rules. So what is the
Buddha saying? You have the ability to
change the rules, but you should also
then follow them.
That's that's that kind of mindset is
not seen in in modern day Buddhist
cultures. That's not how it is. How it
is is the the Arhans of old decided not
to change any of the rules, so we're not
going to do it. That's kind of like So
the Buddha says, "Okay, you can change
this, but then live by it."
>> Yeah.
>> And that's very wise to me. The Buddha
is a master of ina. Did did did the
Buddha really not think that rules would
not have to change as Buddhism grew and
adapted and went and this is another
Vonte G story because I remember when I
first started thinking about the Vasa
I'm like wait a second the Vasa in
America makes no sense the summertime is
the busiest time everybody's even at
Abayiri it's the same way even though
you know Bobin is a retreat center so a
lot of people are coming a giri it's the
same way it's it's busy that's a busy
time Right. What's the time that's the
most secluded? The winter retreat. Right
now, right? Um and that's how it was at
Bava as well. We had what we, you know,
winter retreat was called seclusion at
Pava. Um
and I thought, well, can we like switch
the Vasa to like the winter? It makes
sense, right? If you read the vignia,
you read understand why the Vasa was
came about.
Okay, it makes sense. Well, that's the
winter in America, right? And I remember
I talking to Bonte Gunaratina and
saying, "Bante," he's like, "You know,
have you ever thought about it?" He
says, "Jar, sorry." He says, "I actually
tried to bring this up and like talk to
other monks about this and they didn't
want to have anything to do with it."
So, so I, you know, he's there's he was
such a trends setter in some ways, but
it was he was too far behind. He was too
ahead of his time and he had one foot in
Sri Lanka. What I mean by that is he
couldn't do a lot of the things that he
wanted to do to change to adapt to the
new world. But he was very visionary in
that way. But I as somebody born in this
country as part of that next generation,
I can actually do things. He said, "But
maybe if you go to these meetings with
other monks, talk to them, you might
actually maybe other monks will agree."
So I said I I doubt it but you know and
even I've even thought more about if
that's a wise thing to do you know now
as I've become more senior as a monk and
understanding but like it is one of
those things where well I mean does that
need to change?
>> Yeah. No
>> change.
>> Yeah. It it's fascinating balancing this
tradition with modernity and these old
or these norms which have been around
for a long time and maybe lost and maybe
coming back. back. I mean, I honestly
did when I was training at a bayer, he
really did
>> look to Lumpur Pasino as a father. I
mean, he really was, you know, I was in
my 20s and he was in his maybe later
50s, but it really felt like that. But I
think if we decided, oh, we're going to
do uh Vasa in the winter and just do
whatever we want in the the summer
during, you know, the Vasa months, you
know, he might disown me as a child.
Yeah.
>> And uh just for people to know, Vasa is
the rains retreat, a three-month
traditional period where monastics stay
in one spot. And in India, it's during
the months which are over here are the
summer months when it makes very little
sense to be stuck in one spot. So this
is a perennial debate since western
monastics or monastics came to the west
is like should we switch it or not? Um,
and what we've done is kind of hold a
winter retreat, but then officially
observe the the Vasa um with a one-mon
retreat there, too.
>> So, it's like we get both.
>> Yeah. The best of both worlds.
>> Bonte, we should wrap up soon and go
over to Zoom. Um, and we'll post a link
to Zoom in the chat. And Bonte, despite
it being 10 p.m., is planning to join
us. But before we do that, two
questions. First, would you describe um
briefly your vision of uh the vihari
you're hoping to create in Colorado and
how people can tap into that and then
you should finish with the story about
the spider doing walking meditation or
something if you could.
>> So, what I'm trying to do in Colorado in
in one sense is not very
different than most places. you know,
it's I'm kind of trying to start small
and eventually have like a what like you
know, as you you know, you said, I've
been to these places and and I see a lot
of similarities of how they started. Um,
and oftentimes it's kind of starting in
a more centralized city location, having
the support, and then having the
monastery outside and then on the
weekends coming into the city. Right?
That's so when I was a you know a new
Buddhist watching Ajan Brahm's Friday
night talks he was giving the talks not
at the monastery but at the city center
and so like eventually the the long
story of Maga if there's enough support
and it grows and and it you know
develops is you know the idea is we
start small like in a little apartment
or a little you know then hopefully a
rented house in in Colorado and Denver
and then eventually as support grows get
bigger and then started a monastery
hopefully in the Rockies and you know
then eventually a retreat center because
I do feel very I love how you know the
bo part of Boba that was a retreat
center I didn't like that the monastery
was a retreat center that's rough on
junior monks that's very rough on junior
monks but I like how you know a brahm
has it it's at least like a mile
separated so I think that's a a way a
good way of doing things um
>> but so right now We're just such in
early stages. U but the the eventual
hope is to do you know what
many other places have already done. You
know build a monastery retreat center um
city center and all that kind of stuff
over the the years and the decades. Um
you know the only pioneering aspect of
it is I'm doing it in the center of the
country which uh is not that much
dharma. And I I really feel like we
should start building more places in the
center because there's lots on the on
the coasts. Um but uh but yeah, so that
that's kind of what's that?
>> Middle path. Middle path.
>> Yes. Middle path. Exactly. And so that's
kind of you know where that's that's
heading out. And if anybody is
interested um I guess the website to
check out check myself and the
organization out is muggasea.org.
m- a-agg kha.org.
Um, and so that's where we're at. We,
you know, it's a it's small endeavor
right now, but uh, you know, hopefully
it'll grow. And when I was with you all
um, in person back in November and I got
to see your Saturday session and I
thought I was very inspired by that and
I said hopefully this is like, you know,
three, four, five years in Colorado.
This will be kind of like the same
thing. So yeah,
>> we we'll put the link to to that into
the description for people and we just
wish you all the best. Um and we
appreciate you as a brother monastic and
hope this relationship goes for a long
time uh many lifetimes unless may we
achieve uh liberation before too long.
Um before we go over to Zoom though uh I
think you owe us one quick story about a
spider doing walking meditation with you
>> or something similar. So yeah, so one of
my last retreats at Babina, I shared a
kooti with a spider that was a pretty
menacing looking spider. And I never had
too many issues with spiders, but
there's some big ones. There's like wolf
spiders of Babina that are not quite the
size of my hand, but they're big. Um,
and so I, you know, remember just
sharing a a, uh, actually I did an
article about this on, you can find it
on my website from years and years ago,
but I shared for a nine-day Janna
retreat at Babina. I shared with this
spider and I just remember being so
afraid like looking up at the couti and
like seeing the spider above me and I'm
like, you know, just I just was
practicing lots of meta. Um and that
just started like and especially
like kind of especially giving lots of
meta to spiders and you know after years
I started just having these weird
experiences like I'm walking I'm doing
walking meditation in the hall at Baba
and a spider's walking right next to me
and I'm like okay this is you know
whatever but I stop and I turn around
and it stops and it turns around and it
starts following I'm like okay this is
whatever that's just coincidence By the
by the third or fourth time I was like
okay this is meta. This is this is this
is I am actually experiencing this. I
think by like the seventh time it was
done. It was like okay that that's
enough.
But um and then during one of my winter
seclusions where I spent a month in uh
up in this the where the punis used to
stay at Bob and when there were bikunis
um in this like little kind of house
that I was staying by myself not talking
to anybody for the month etc. I'm just
like in this chair just doing some
reading and like wolf spider just comes
right up to the edge of the chair and
just hanging out right there. I'm like,
"Okay,
no problem." You know, lots of meta for
you, Mr. Spider, but you stay here.
Don't go on me. It's like that story
about the Thai monk with the with the
snake in the in the kooty, you know?
It's like, well, if we had to live
together, one of us would be afraid and
get hurt. So it's better that
>> you depart. So it was like one of those
things where it's like you could stay
there just don't come on my body because
I probably will freak out.
>> So
there are limitations.
>> Wow. Fonte J Spider King. I love it. I
love it.
>> Yeah.
>> Fonte, we'll see you over on Zoom in
just a bit and uh people feel free to
join us there. Uh we wish you all the
best and we hope to see you again soon.
Thank you, sir.