The New Card Shop Model: Inside Bleeker Trading’s Community, Experience, and Entertainment

 I always say sports cards are like stocks,
 Pokemon and TCG cards are like commodities.
 Charizard can't get it to UI,
 Charizard can't tear its ACL.
 I don't know if say we can't compete,
 but we're not trying to compete on price,
 we're not trying to be overpriced for underpriced,
 we're just trying to, hey, run a business.
 Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast here
 on the Collector Nation Network.
 Whether you're chasing trails or calling bluffs,
 we take you inside the hobby.
 Here's your host, Ryan Alfer.
 Card shops have changed a lot.
 It's not just as flake cases and inventory anymore.
 The best ones now are part retail, part content,
 part community.
 Matt Winkle Reed, the CEO of Bleaker Trading,
 has built one of the most recognized shops
 in the hobby that does just that.
 So today, we're getting into what actually looks like,
 what that looks like from collecting,
 to running a shop and everything in between.
 Matt, welcome to Collector Nation.
 Thanks so much.
 Thanks for having me, guys.
 Hey, good to have you, brother.
 I, from hobby shop owner to hobby shop owner now.
 I mean, this is an order for you, by the way.
 Yeah, I appreciate that.
 I know, I didn't set out for that necessarily
 to happen, was like, oh, when I was 25,
 I'm going to own a hobby shop, but it's happened
 and now I own one and so it's cool.
 I appreciate that, man.
 By the way, same thing, 25, if you had told me
 that I was going to own a hobby shop,
 in my 30s, but you're crazy.
 Exactly.
 I was like, really?
 Because I collected growing up, you know,
 but I really put it on the shelf.
 You know, some people put it on the shelf.
 I put it like behind the Christmas sweaters,
 behind the kid photos and the swimming ribbons
 when I was 12 or whatever, all that shit,
 we don't look, I was like, it was way in the back of the closet.
 Yeah.
 I had to really dust that stuff off.
 My boys were late getting into it.
 So I didn't know if they'd ever come back
 and I'd just kind of...
 My orders.
 I had that story of my collection got thrown out.
 Oh, no.
 I got to, all right, let's start there.
 Oh, what happened?
 I mean, my parents redid our basement
 and then my cards went missing.
 Oh, geez.
 I mean, it's one of those things
 like who knew this was going to happen, right?
 Exactly.
 But, I mean, I got, you know,
 when I was, I was a big collector when I was a kid, right?
 And obviously, as you grow up and, you know,
 fads come and go, you get, you get to high school,
 you know, you get new hobbies.
 You change hobbies and, you know,
 it took, I took a 15 year break from the hobby
 and it wasn't until I moved back to New York in 2023
 that, you know, I got bored.
 I was investing, I was doing work
 and, you know, I really needed another hobby, right?
 I golf couldn't sustain me all year round in New York.
 So, my younger sibling who lives in Manhattan
 was like, hey, you know, because I said I was,
 maybe I should get back into collecting cards.
 They were like, hey, you should go check out this shop
 in the Westville, it's called Bleeker Trading.
 And I was like, all right.
 So I took the one train up three stops,
 went into Bleeker Trading.
 Mike, my current GM of the shop sold me my first hobby box.
 I remember it was brilliant stars,
 Pokemon brilliant stars.
 I was, you know, I'm a Charizard collector.
 So obviously, for the Charizard,
 he sold me my first booster box in 15 years,
 felt instantly in love with the shop and the vibe of the shop
 and went back to the next day.
 And then, the next day, you got hooked.
 I got hooked.
 Because you know what, it's so interesting.
 You know, being away from it for 15 years,
 you forget certain things about it, right?
 Like the nuance is like how intimidating it can be, right?
 Especially after this long period of absence,
 and then you get reintroduced to it.
 And I think what ultimately got me hooked again
 wasn't just opening the product.
 It was going into the shop and having that community,
 having that vibe, having that, you know,
 that 101 interaction with Mike and the staff.
 And, you know, I got instantly hooked back into it.
 Ultimately, to the point where I said to myself,
 I was like, what's going on here?
 What's going on in the industry that I applied for a retail job
 just to do diligence?
 So I started working in the register, right?
 To, you know, it's both all that happened,
 you know, became head of operations, a bleaker
 to where the founder of the company said,
 hey, do you want to buy this from the business from me?
 Right?
 Because we wanted to grow, we wanted to keep going.
 And I said, absolutely, I do.
 And here we are.
 That's awesome, man.
 I think, I mean, that's the rekindling story, you know,
 one box rip from rip into flippin.
 Yeah.
 It's like on in the business.
 I don't know.
 Rip it, flip it, own it.
 Like, it's just, it's been so exciting.
 And it's been, it's been such an amazing time in the hobby.
 You know, I think I got in at the right time,
 but like also it does, it's not just, you know,
 the financial aspect of it, but like it has given me
 a really great purpose, right?
 It's not just about moving products,
 it's about engaging with customers all the way from 10 years
 old to 40-year-olds, right?
 Like talking about cards and to dream come true.
 And I've always, in every industry I've worked in
 and invested in, it's always aligned with my passions,
 right?
 And those passions have a common theme.
 It's kid-focused, right?
 Because I never want to grow up.
 I always wanted to be a kid, even as an adult,
 but I've been very fortunate to, you know,
 to stumble upon this amazing place, an amazing brand
 with an amazing community and have been accepted, right?
 And it's been, it's been quite a journey.
 Yeah.
 Dan, I do think I get your opinion on this.
 I think if you gotta, you gotta love cards
 and love, like, rip it and like, to own a card shop.
 And if you, you could do it for the business, yes.
 But if you don't like cards and collecting on some level,
 I don't know, I don't know if it works as well.
 Because you're not gonna be able to relate and talk like,
 I can talk to anybody that walks in,
 I'm now, you know, two and a half years back into it,
 like, really back into it.
 Yeah.
 So I mean, I remember everything I already knew
 and now I know all the new shit and, you know,
 like, no one rips more packs than me and my boys at home.
 And so like, it's authentic interest.
 And then it's a business now.
 So I have to take a series and all that.
 But I don't know, I can't imagine not actually being into it.
 And I do know there are some card shop owners
 that can care less about it.
 I think it's a very disjointed, I mean,
 I feel it's with any industry, right?
 If your heart's not in it, you're gonna,
 you're your final result or the final product
 that you're providing, it's gonna be reflected in that, right?
 Like, you have to know what you're talking about.
 You have to relate to it.
 And being that we are a community customer-facing industry
 shop, operation, whatever, you have to be able to
 share that passion with them, right?
 Or else they're not going to convert into customers, right?
 You know, one thing we always,
 let's talk about that a little bit, right?
 Like, one thing that we a bleaker always says,
 we're not a card shop, we're a hospitality business.
 So everyone that walks in, whether you're buying a hobby box
 or a retail pack or a single or a squish models pack,
 like it doesn't matter.
 Like you have to provide that service,
 that customer service, that hospitality,
 that feeling of welcoming in order for them
 to want to come back to your shop,
 but to want to get involved in the hobby, right?
 So I think like with across all industries,
 you have to want it.
 You got to want to love it.
 And you got to have the knowledge behind it.
 So yeah, I think like that final product
 of what you're providing them
 is definitely going to be reflected if your heart's not in it.
 I think the best stores today,
 and I really like what you just said, Matt,
 I mean, I think when I started collector station,
 I said the same thing.
 Like I didn't want a 10 by 10,
 strip mall, like, I mean,
 you've got the iconic New York City
 in the whole, the hub of,
 you've got sort of surroundings like built in
 that make your shop world famous,
 world known because of some of the city
 and then everything you've done with it.
 Here, like, I could, you know,
 I could go to strip mall, you know, whatever.
 No, I bought a building with it in mind
 where I was like, this has got to be an experiential store.
 Yeah.
 So we call it, you know, we're not a retail shop.
 We're a hobby shop.
 We're an experiential hobby destination.
 Yeah.
 I mean, I mean, we're two months in,
 but I think that's what we're building towards
 because we're selling experience
 because we can't, I don't know if say we can't compete,
 but we're not trying to compete on price.
 We're not trying to be overpriced or underpriced.
 We're just trying to, hey, run a business,
 but we're trying to make it to where you,
 this is where you'll want to come.
 Like, you want to spend time here,
 and we have space for you to spend time
 and it feels like a sports bar meets a man cave,
 meets a cool hangout spot
 where you can also buy packs and rip and hang out with friends.
 Yeah.
 And so I think if you aren't leaning into that experience,
 now you kind of get easily forgotten.
 There's a notion or a philosophy
 that we try to embrace at bleaker trading.
 It's no longer just a retail space, right?
 It's a third place, right?
 A lot of retailers are trying to navigate and master that.
 I think it's extremely important that you position yourselves
 as not just a shot, right?
 And you're already doing it, right?
 You are a third space.
 You are a third place, and that is so important
 because you want those people to come,
 whether they're going to buy something or not.
 Exactly.
 We have the luxury in our industry
 to have people keep coming,
 whether they want to trade with each other, right?
 Whether it's at a bleaker trading trade night
 or a bleaker card show, which we have on the first Saturday
 of every month, whether they buy something or not is great.
 Obviously you want them to do that eventually,
 but they know they can come, do trades at our place,
 and go home, but also engage with other collectors,
 hang out with the staff, talk about what they just pull,
 talk about upcoming releases, what they like about the hobby,
 what they hate about the hobby,
 what keeps them up at night about the hobby, right?
 It's not just getting them in there to buy and leave,
 it's getting them in there to buy,
 but also buy into the brand, buy into what we're doing,
 buy into the community, and become lifelong collectors.
 Because at the end of the day, it's not just a hobby,
 it's also an alternative investment asset class, right?
 For some people, but for other people, it's a hobby.
 Isn't that great?
 Is Matt on the business side for bleaker,
 I mean, and chair or doll chair,
 I think I'm not getting the numbers,
 but I mean, you're obviously in a high rent district.
 High and all that.
 What are the business lanes for bleaker?
 Obviously, you're selling wax and you're selling singles.
 I mean, is that the majority of it,
 or you got other events, get other things?
 I'm just curious on the business side for bleaker.
 So right now, our primary verticals are just our retail,
 so we're selling wax or selling singles.
 All of our events are free, right?
 Our trade nights are all free.
 Our bleaker card show, free, right?
 We always want to put the community first
 in the sense of, we want them to come to our events,
 feel like they don't have to pull out of their pockets
 to get in the door, right?
 It's, you never know who's gonna show up.
 So as of right now, our philosophy is,
 our events are for everybody, right?
 It's one of those things where everything's on the table,
 of course, for the future, whether it's e-commerce,
 breaking events space rent out for,
 we have art gallery showings, we have had Hulu events,
 we've had food tasting events, right?
 Like that's all on the table,
 but in terms of our core product of events, offering.
 Yeah, that's awesome.
 That you can keep it that way, especially for you.
 I know what that area is.
 People not even appreciate the reality
 to have a free event in the district that you're in alone
 is a big leap, but it just shows you the community
 that you're trying to build.
 I know people, where they appreciate or not,
 maybe they should listen to this so they do.
 I mean, I will, so, right?
 The day, I mean, Ron, you've been to a lot of card shows,
 right?
 And you can tell how overwhelming that can be, right?
 300 to 500 tables.
 That's, especially for someone that has never been
 to a card show before.
 So the ethos of the Bleaker card show,
 to create a card show that was, you know,
 that was approachable for those that have never been
 to a card show before, but also experiential for the veteran,
 right?
 We always have great dealers that come,
 we have our space in the backyard, our lounge,
 in our 94th space, we can have 25 to 30 dealers there.
 So you get, you can wet your whistle,
 you can get that appetite,
 you can make those deals happen,
 but also as a new collector, it's approachable.
 And that's it, right?
 It's one of those things where we want it to be approachable.
 Talk to me about, like, merch and other things.
 I mean, is that sell pretty well for you guys?
 Well, you know, I have it.
 I know, I mean, I didn't get a hat for this episode,
 or I would have it on, but you know, Matt,
 you still have it.
 What a second you want.
 I know, Bill, we're gonna have to work that out.
 I'll be rocking that thing every day.
 Look, merch, like I said, everything's on the table.
 I don't want to reveal too much right now.
 We've got some great things in the works right now.
 Sure.
 As of right now, our hat speaks for itself, right?
 It's more recognizable hats in the hobby.
 And we've had, we've been lucky to have a lot of athletes
 where we've had a lot of collectors wearing it.
 You know, we were at the fanat,
 we were at fanatics fast last year.
 And I feel like I saw every, every fifth person
 was wearing a bleak retraining hat, right?
 Yep.
 I know.
 I didn't ever pick one up, but I was there.
 I'm like, I don't know.
 Next time you come ones on me.
 Haha.
 Is, how many, do you all do the national shows?
 You all do fanatics fast?
 I mean, you all show it both of those.
 Yeah, so, you know, we've showed up at fanatics fast,
 since fanatics fast one.
 We've got some really exciting stuff coming
 for fanatics fast three national.
 We don't have, we don't typically have a booth at national,
 but we've got something very interesting in the works
 for this year, this upcoming national.
 Oh, all these secrets, Matt, we don't want to break them on,
 you know, one of the number one shows in the hobby.
 I don't want to, I don't want to speak before,
 you know, before the dream comes true, yes.
 Okay, all right.
 We're still, he's not dried or set.
 He's not dried.
 Yeah, I get it, I get it.
 Well, I'll be at both of those, so we'll have to get up.
 We have a pretty big presence at the national, actually.
 I mean, it's a great show, right?
 The national of an amazing show and, you know,
 fanatics fast is also an amazing show, right?
 They're two very different experience.
 Very different.
 I do want you to talk about that, Matt, like because, you know,
 as we're talking about the stores becoming more experiential
 and less transactional.
 I mean, obviously the transactions take place,
 big transactions, but, but the experiential,
 it is quite the difference of those two shows
 and shows in general, historically, you know,
 it's a lot of tables and you go there and the cards, the hero,
 and it should be, but fanatics fast is a different thing,
 but I think it introduces some interesting concepts
 with the experience at the show blended.
 And I want to get kind of your take overall on that.
 I think with fanatics fast, if you go, right,
 you can find a little bit of everything, right?
 If you're going just for cards, that's there.
 If you're going for cards and the experience
 of getting introduced to different funnels of sports,
 it's for the fan, right?
 It's for the sports fan.
 And I think cards has become a vessel for fandom, right?
 In terms of what athletes you like to follow,
 what teams you follow, right?
 You can capture a bigger customer pool
 for sports fandom into collectibles, right?
 So I feel you get a little bit more
 at a fanatics fest when you go versus going to the national.
 It's very card focused.
 And that's great, but I think there's,
 there comes a time when you think about exposing new people
 to the hobby, how do you do that, right?
 Especially if they're fans of basketball, football,
 soccer, hockey, you name it, right?
 You don't really know how to enter the funnel at the national.
 If I was a fan of sports, but I didn't know anything about cards
 and I go to the national, I wouldn't even know where to begin.
 The largest fire hose in the world, right?
 But for fanatics fest, you can get introduced to cards
 if you're collectibles to tops to, you know,
 different card shops, hobby shops, breakers, all that stuff.
 Like that's all the experience has now taken the forefront
 in terms of also collecting, right?
 Where you got your pack, where you get your card,
 where, you know, who are you opening with?
 I think that's a big part of it
 because people are yearning for that human to human contact,
 especially in such a digital world.
 Yeah, I do think that's an interesting thing
 as we've moved more and more digital.
 The hobby is really a great outlet with which to sort of,
 I'm gonna say fight against that trend
 because I believe that these two worlds can change
 and then the hobby can actually come along,
 can come a long way,
 it's actually bringing some of the digital components
 and the connectivity that's in technology allows.
 I think we have some room to grow there.
 Yeah, but the interpersonal and getting together,
 and I love that you just said, like, who you rip with matters?
 Like, and like versus just going home
 and sitting in your closet alone.
 Like, that's an interesting insight.
 Are you ripping?
 Did you say closet?
 Are you ripping in your closet?
 I'm not.
 You, no, no, not me.
 I've always got, look, I've always got four extra rippers,
 like right by my side, four boards.
 You need to sleep, you need to go to the top,
 you need to go to help open your bag, right?
 Exactly, yeah, but I, you know,
 of course, I've got my few that I sneak
 animals away to sleep, but you know.
 I think the technology piece,
 it's like technology is a tool, right?
 And especially in this hobby, it hasn't taken over.
 It's become, it's more of a tool for people
 to understand the valuations of their cards,
 understand like marketplaces and things like that.
 But when it comes to the human to human element
 of collecting, technology can't really ever replace that.
 Yeah, 100%.
 What's been your biggest surprise
 is a store owner in the hobby.
 Like, what's something that maybe you didn't expect?
 Or were you that prepared?
 That's a really good question.
 I think I always had this instinct
 that this wasn't a fad.
 Yeah.
 But what surprised me was how fast that realization came.
 As the store owner, right?
 I think people have,
 let's just put our business hats on for a second here.
 The stock market, for example, is, you know,
 all time highs as of today, right?
 It's extremely expensive to invest in the stock market.
 This has become an alternative asset class for people
 to want to invest in, to hold long term, right?
 Or to flip, you know, daily, like whatever you're,
 whatever you've looked about, all cool.
 But I think people have really bought into the notion,
 the upside of this hobby.
 And that's really cool to see
 and how fast that has happened.
 Yeah, I, I just can't believe
 that we can't keep seal Pokemon on the shelf.
 That's like, and I mean, everything's, everything's moves,
 but it's crazy.
 There's ebbs and flows, right?
 Like the, you know, valuations go up and down, right?
 I always say to a new parent that walks in with their kid
 and their kid wants to get involved.
 They're like, he doesn't know where he or she doesn't know
 where they want to start.
 We always say, I always say sports cards are like stocks,
 Pokemon and TCG cards are like commodities, right?
 Charizard can get a DUI.
 Charizard can't tear its ACL, right?
 Charizard can't, you know, throw a bad, you know,
 get pulled in the butt.
 Then he like pulsing in an opening day, right?
 Like there's, these little things that you can communicate
 to these customers to kind of give them a general sense
 of where to start and where to begin.
 It's amazing to see what the Pokemon market has done.
 And like as an IP, it's a really strong IP
 and it's here forever, right?
 It started when I was a kid.
 And I, whoa, it's still have it, right?
 My first edition.
 Right?
 That's a strong hold.
 And I think, where am I trying to go with this?
 It's become really amazing to not only see the people,
 the diverse people getting into the hobby,
 but also seeing people that only collect sports cards,
 now exploring of alternative categories, right?
 Because whether it's someone ripped a really cool box
 in the shop and they're like, oh, I want to,
 I remember collecting Pokemon as a kid.
 I want to get into that.
 Or, you know, saying, hey, I want to get a sports
 and transition into Pokemon, where do I start?
 How's the mix been for you guys?
 And like when you have trade nights,
 what's the blend of sports versus Pokemon?
 How do those communities interact?
 Really great question.
 When it first started, like when we, when I first owned it,
 or at least 2024, when I first started at Bleco,
 let's start there.
 Those that were into sports cards,
 only brought sports cards.
 Those that were into Pokemon cards,
 only brought Pokemon cards.
 I now see people's cases have a mixture of both.
 Yeah, which is really cool.
 Whether they're ripping for certain cards
 or they're collecting only Mewtwo, only Charizard,
 only Squirtle, whatever, right?
 It's been a very healthy, diverse collection
 that I, collections that I see.
 And it's awesome to see that.
 Do your sales sort of reflected too,
 like the ping ponging of both?
 Yeah, I would say like, we definitely do more T,
 slightly more TCG.
 It's very close.
 It's probably like 55, 45 in terms of TCG versus sports.
 But it has inflows, right?
 It's one of those things where, you know,
 Pokemon does four to six releases a year, right?
 Sports, there's way more.
 I think just also depending on the product
 that comes out, it ebbs and flows,
 but historically, it's 55, 45 probably.
 That's about where we are.
 Almost exactly.
 I'm curious, where are you guys at?
 Are you guys at?
 We're almost exactly there.
 We're at Tatering towards 60, 40 right now.
 Yeah, I think football season starts, you know,
 like it's big football.
 I mean, South Carolina's big football.
 We don't have a professional baseball team.
 So, I mean, we, I'm a braze fan.
 And, you know, we're near Atlanta,
 but it's not really an MLB state.
 Right.
 And, you know, and North Carolina doesn't have a team.
 So it's more football, football, basketball,
 and as far as sports go.
 So we see that pick back up with football season.
 Because, you know, we started probably,
 because it was still in football season,
 when we first opened right towards Super Bowl time.
 And it was probably 60, 40 sports.
 But right now, it's probably 60, 40 Pokémon.
 Right.
 I mean, like, again, perfect order just came out.
 Yeah.
 Top's Chrome football just came out.
 Like, so this is an interesting time to see
 how those levels could potentially change
 just this month alone.
 Right.
 Exactly.
 I do speaking of tops.
 I mean, they kind of own the world now.
 And I don't really care.
 Like, I don't know how to have a dog in that fight.
 I mean, that was a shop owner.
 It's like, you know, we sell products
 and, you know, working our allocations
 and doing things like that.
 But like, I don't necessarily have a dog in the fight
 of the brand stuff.
 But I mean, in part of me is a little sad
 as he's some of the, I know Penny
 is still gonna make stuff, but unlicensed stuff.
 Yeah.
 I just wish, I wish they could just figure out a deal to buy it.
 So we'd have all of it licensed, you know, like,
 and maybe that'll still happen.
 Maybe cooler heads will prevail long term.
 But I mean, any perspective on the tops for Spanini
 and all the license changes?
 I think it's still early to really give my pulse on it.
 Obviously, you want optionality.
 Yeah.
 In the marketplace.
 I mean, I love the downtowns.
 I love the downtowns.
 Yeah.
 I think they're a really cool insert, really great case hit.
 It's sad to see that that has happened.
 But, you know, there's opportunity
 for a really bright future, depending on how tops
 executes this.
 Yeah.
 Yeah, exactly.
 I love downtowns and cabooms, so I'm like.
 Right.
 Yeah, that's right.
 Another tops is gonna make some cool cards.
 But I think I will say the Kaiju insert
 that they just, that's gonna come out.
 It is really cool.
 Really to see how that looks in real life.
 I want to get my hands on one, but I think ultimately,
 you know, I always say in New York,
 there's optionality for different pizza.
 There's optionality for different restaurants.
 You want to have that optionality.
 But it's just too early to say.
 I think it's, let's just see what they do.
 I'm really excited about Topps Chrome football.
 I'm really excited about Bowman Basque of all coming.
 Yeah.
 I got to be at Topps industry conference
 and what they showed us was really fascinating
 and really exciting for the hobby.
 Ultimately, the end of the day, this industry is growing, right?
 And we should all be focused on how to keep people
 engaged in the funnel, how to keep them involved
 in the hobby and how do we make sure
 that people are getting value?
 How are they experiencing the hobby, right?
 So there's like all these different things.
 So long as the industry is moving forward
 in a healthy way, I'm good.
 Yeah, well said.
 And I think that's back to where I don't really care.
 I mean, like what the brands are necessarily
 as long as they're doing right.
 Oh, see, this kind of alarming that I hope is not like a tell
 it's like, you know, Topps came out
 with very reasonable retail pricing, you know?
 And with basketball and football,
 but the nature of where we're at,
 it's all like four or five X from what was reasonable,
 like, you know, mega boxes, now 150 bucks,
 you know, a retail blaster box is,
 you know, supposed to be 40 is now 100.
 You know, can I flip it to you?
 Like, do you think that's a byproduct
 of the big box retailers not limiting purchases for people?
 Like from a scam perspective, like I'm curious
 your thoughts on that, right?
 Like you can walk into any target
 and you can get as many blasts as you want.
 Well, not here.
 Not here.
 You're gonna get two.
 So they have limited you.
 That's great.
 They've limited only two.
 And it came, I mean, it came art.
 Age of myself.
 The game arts be closed for 30 years.
 Like Walmart is five.
 And look, two years, like when we first got back into it,
 the boys, I got four boys.
 I'm not trying to go in there and scalp.
 I'm trying to go in there and buy a case of boxes
 because we're gonna rip that weekend.
 And there's four of us.
 We're at five of us, including me.
 So I can buy as much as I want 18 months, two years ago.
 Now though, they've handcuffed it.
 Like for the last six or eight months,
 at least in South Carolina,
 I can't walk out with more than two or five at Walmart,
 two at Target.
 And they are actually enforcing it.
 Yeah, that's great.
 That's the greatest.
 I think it's a lot of fun.
 So at least in here, the top product pricing
 is not dictated because people are scalping
 or buying all of it at Target at Walmart.
 That's not impacting, I think the top's probably now.
 What I fear though is,
 because they're now the only license holder,
 there's a little bit of this,
 it's been even even launched a product.
 They are seemingly coming out with non-licensed stuff,
 I think they haven't been well communicated,
 but it looks like they are.
 Yeah.
 And so that's kind of like,
 and if you were like waiting to see on that,
 if they're gonna buy it.
 And so I think you have this,
 well, what's the top's actually gonna,
 how many products are they gonna come out with?
 Like kind of like a little bit of FOMO.
 Yeah, I think it's all about product diversification
 in terms of the different skews that they come out with, right?
 In order to ensure there's affordable price points,
 they may have to look into potentially making a retail skew
 that doesn't have a chance for the superfactor, right?
 At the same time that like,
 it's hard, they have an interesting conundrum on their hands
 and how they wanna dictate entry level products
 to be available for the young collector,
 for the newcomer to the hobby, right?
 At the end of the day,
 a $150 mega box that doesn't feel great sometimes.
 Well, that's what the hobby boxes and baseball are.
 Right.
 So I think like, ultimately,
 we're, again, it's one of those weight and seas, right?
 Cause they just got all the licensing,
 like there's gonna be some retooling.
 And so long as tops does a good job
 of putting the collector first.
 Yeah, and I think fault tops, I mean,
 I was actually applauded the fact that their retail prices
 were very reasonable, you know?
 Yeah.
 The markets just already, you know, kind of come up.
 And hey, I mean, look, you're right.
 I think it's a weight thing.
 We're here at the first tops football product.
 It's gonna have demand.
 And I'm here for it.
 The only reason I don't like it is because the last thing
 you just said is the affordability factor for young collectors.
 But I also say, and you make a good point.
 I say this too, like, not everyone can afford a Lamborghini.
 And we don't cry about the fact that, you know,
 people can't afford a Lamborghini.
 No, they go, well, you can afford a Honda.
 And that's what you should drive.
 Right.
 And so people want to be able to go in and get stuff
 that has the potential of a million dollar card
 and they want to buy it for 20 bucks.
 Well, I'm sorry.
 That's just not real.
 Yeah, but at the same time, so tops came out
 with those new collector's kits, right?
 We saw someone pull one, open one in shop,
 and they pulled a, when the auto,
 like a five, almost five figure card.
 So in that product alone, which is an intro-starting product,
 there are the chances there.
 Right.
 It's one of those things where you as a young collector,
 and we do this all the time when kids come into the shop,
 they come in with their allowance money,
 they have $20 to spend, they want to spend everything.
 We say, hey, why don't you buy one pack for $5?
 Keep, or buy two packs for $10.
 You keep the other 10.
 Then you have something to come in next time you come in.
 Right.
 It's also on the shops to educate those new,
 those newcomers to the hobby.
 Right.
 Don't throw all your eggs in one basket.
 Let's get a, get a taste for it.
 Learn.
 Right.
 And then keep slowly coming back.
 It's one of those things where you don't have to spend all your money right now.
 It's one of those things where you can spend some of your money right now.
 And then save the $10 for something else.
 Yeah.
 And what I do, and what I'm trying to do, like,
 I'm trying to market rip and packs,
 you're buying entertainment that you happen to get cards with.
 Like, it's an entertainment.
 Like, especially if you're hanging out with your buddies or hanging out here,
 don't be wrong at us for real money.
 And you can call it gambling if you want to,
 but I just think it's entertainment.
 Yeah.
 So we sell entertainment, rip and pack's entertainment.
 Selling singles, now that's building a collection.
 Yeah.
 You know, smart collecting.
 Yeah.
 But rip and packs is really an entertainment thing.
 Like, you don't go to the movies and watch the movies and then go,
 well, why didn't I get to take home time cruise?
 You know, like, well, you paid for that entertainment.
 And we does inherent value to everything you open, right?
 Whether it's a base card or a case head,
 depending on your collection and depending on what you're trying to get out of the hobby,
 I think, if it's got value to you,
 then we've done our jobs, right?
 Yes.
 It's not just about the chase.
 It's about, you know, if you want a Jackson Dart card,
 but you pull a Jackson Dart base card out of a pack,
 that's a win, right?
 Yeah.
 But if you pull a Charizard EX out of a pack,
 hey, you like Charizard, you can add that to your Charizard collection.
 It might only be $10, or it might not be a 2K card,
 but I think ultimately it's the archetype of the collector that is coming in.
 You can foster that concept of even when you're ripping a pack
 and you get a base card of a player or a team that you like.
 That's a win.
 100%.
 Yeah.
 Like I'm a Clemson grad Trevor Lawrence,
 we have, I won't admit how big my collection is.
 You're going to have to come down to my store, man.
 I've got a secret passage to my office where my PC is displayed in my man cave.
 So Pepsi door, you can hit the buttons.
 I'll give you the combination to hit.
 It opens the door.
 It's cool.
 Yeah, but more Trevor Lawrence.
 But to this day, if I get a Josh Allen who is my favorite player or Trevor Lawrence,
 I don't care if it's Baytron Hut, I'm sticking over to the side.
 Like, you know, because that's what I collect.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Exactly.
 That's how it should be.
 And that's awesome, right?
 And you can save yourself.
 I'm building every Trevor Lawrence card known.
 Or that I pull myself out of a pack or whatever, right?
 Right.
 You can, you can, the entertainment part of is either ripping, ripping for it or going to hunt for the single,
 which is also a great aspect of our shop because you've been in our shop.
 You've seen our singles bins there, right?
 From $1 to $30, going through the NFL bin and being like, I've never seen this Trevor Lawrence insert before.
 Rebox, boom, done, right?
 Exactly.
 I think for the card is also a game and experience in of itself.
 Exactly.
 There's so many tenants that I love for my kids because they learn business, you know,
 like the trading aspect and learn how to talk to adults at car shows like.
 Yeah.
 So many upsides to it.
 I think, you know, some people weigh in on the, you know, the negative parts.
 But I think for the most part though, people are seeing it for what it is.
 It's a great pastime.
 It's a great way for people to learn.
 And especially if you're flipping or doing deals and stuff.
 It's great for kids to communicate that are little business business people now.
 It's insane.
 And I think it's a great way to get kids and to interact with each other, right?
 To understand what's a fair trade versus not a fair trade, right?
 Like you want to foster those values.
 Yeah.
 As a, as a hobby shop owner, at least in my, in my Ford four walls, I want to make sure
 everyone feels like there's a fair, safe space for them to trade.
 And they're not going to get taken advantage of.
 Yeah.
 100%.
 Matt, I know you got a few things you can't talk about as we close out here.
 And you can talk about the future of bleaker and, you know, where things are going the rest this year.
 Like I said, everything's on the table.
 E-commerce.
 So those that want the bleaker experience, but don't live in Manhattan, it's coming your way.
 There we go.
 E-com City.
 Yep.
 Well, I'm coming to pick up my hat in person.
 I'm not ordering it online.
 I'm not getting for you.
 We got to figure out some way to collab.
 I don't know what it is, but we're going to figure it out.
 Maybe host your podcast in New York at the shop.
 That's what we need.
 There it is.
 I love it.
 Can we do that every fanatics fest week or shit?
 I might just make a special trip.
 Something to where it's not so crazy, maybe.
 I don't know.
 It's good.
 Matt, drop some deets on yourself.
 Social deets for bleaker, all that stuff.
 At bleaker trading for Instagram.
 At Matt Winkle Read on Instagram.
 Happy to be here.
 Matt, it's been a pleasure, man.
 A great start to build a relationship.
 I hope we can do a lot of fun things together.
 I love what you're doing with bleaker.
 It's a great brand.
 It's in good hands.
 And you got my support, baby.
 Thanks, Ryan.
 Appreciate it.
 Thanks for having me.
 Hey, guys.
 You're going to find us thecollectornation.com.
 You'll find the full episode highlight clips.
 Anything and everything related to collector nation.
 We're here to support you in the hobby.
 And we do it by bringing you the best, the brightest.
 The bleaker trading unbelievable shop.
 Get to New York and see it.
 You'll thank me for it, I'm telling you.
 It's an experience unto itself.
 And Matt's a great guy.
 He'll take care of you there.
 We'll take care of you next time here on Collector Nation.
 Thanks for tuning into the show.
 Be sure to follow us on your go-to podcast platform.
 And catch the full video episode over on YouTube.
 Visit us at collectornation.com.
 And follow Ryan on Instagram at RyanAlford.
 Now get out there and collect yours.
 Hey!