The Inner Voice That Stops You Taking the Photo And Lies to Every Photographer, with Rory King - E122

Nothing matters and everything matters.
I absolutely loathe social media.
This is Rory King, an Australian photographer who worked in black and white, mostly by hand in the darkroom, making portraits of the people he loved and the landscapes that raised him.
He came up through performance art, nearly lost himself in the years after art school, and turned 10 years of pictures into a book that we now know as Gumsucker.
Part of the suffering that I was in was a result of being really irresponsible.
If you really love making pictures and sometimes you've wondered just why you even bother, then this conversation is for you.
Because what followed is about the years that nearly broke him, the camera that pulled him out, and what it actually cost to make work that is unmistakably your own.
After art school, I really struggled.
I I had a really rough time.
My mental health was terrible from 18 to 24.
It was hard, needed a lot of professional help.
And that was that went on for probably four or five years.
It's not a hyperbole to say it saved my life.
That you are not gonna die and it's gonna be all good.
Part of finding your voice is finding how to find access to your voice.
And I think for me, I'm still trying to do that.
Glad we finally uh found the time to uh fix technical issues and time zones and all that kind of stuff.
But uh it's it's really great to have you.
Real honor.
So thanks for joining me.
Yeah, thank you, Matt.
Thanks.
Um where to start?
Well, I think it'd be good to give an idea of who you are as photography, how how photography found you um as you know, eventually a a photographer, the photographer who you are today.
Um I'm interested in you know your art background.
You have a lot of background in the arts um from childhood and how that kind of evolved into using a camera and photography.
So just give us a little bit of a background and your pedigree in the in the photography space.
Sure.
Uh I think I've known since about 15 that I've wanted to make art.
It's something that spoke to me immediately.
And from that moment, I was pretty narrow-minded and focused on going to art school and being an artist.
Um, and it took me a little while to find photography or to really invest in it.
I was using photography as a way to document performance work that I did, um, and then learned a little bit more about the medium and printing in the dark room.
And that just catapulted my love for the medium.
And um I feel like it's a way photography for me is a tool that I am able to use to understand more about my relationships and who I am in the world.
Um, and so it's sort of um almost a companion to me, something that I have with me that helps me to be out and also express myself.
So it's quite important to my life.
I think um I've centered most of my attention around photography and being able to do photography, and that manifests in the lifestyle decisions that I've made um um living in my van and traveling.
It's all kind of centered around making work.
So yeah, so it's always been there, kind of.
Yeah.
I mean you dabbled in other performing arts, right?
When you were when you were a child.
So um, you know, you now you climb and you photograph and you you go around in your in your van.
But um what this I'm interested in like the dark the the kind of almost seminal moment of being in a dark room.
And for I I know you, but for those that maybe don't, your skills in the dark room, and we you know, we talked more about it in Chico when we met when you were doing a workshop there with Romeo Meeks, but the you know, the dark room is something that um you said elevates your love for the medium.
Can you uh uh elaborate on why that is what it is about the dark room and the you know the analogue craft side of it that that really has you know grown your love?
Sure.
Uh I think for me, um film, shooting film and analog process was a sort of two-step um process, I guess.
I first learned about shooting film and developing, and for years I scanned all of my film, and that was fulfilling enough for me.
But then there was a point where I learned how to print, and that was a pivotal moment that changed everything.
I now refuse to scan film.
I hate it.
I can't believe I spent as long as I did sitting at the computer and scanning film and trying to get it right.
Um the dark room for me is where the work really comes alive, not only as a physical print that has its own aesthetic quality and its own imperfections, but also it's a place for me to reflect on the people in the photos and the places, and it becomes a very emotional experience.
Um, I'm fortunate enough that the darkroom I print at, it's a community dark room here in Canberra, but it's really rare that anyone else is in there.
So I'll often have the whole day um with full access and I can play my music on the speaker and easily spend 10 hours printing.
Um so it becomes this kind of physical realization of the work, but then also allows me to emotionally process and reflect on the pictures that I'm working on.
So it's quite it's it's a really special place for me.
Yeah, wonderful.
And you took you mentioned twice already how um printing and how your your photography and photographic process uh is a way for you to get a little bit closer to people and a little bit understand your relationships a little bit more.
Can you um explain a little bit more why that that is and what it you know what it is under your psyche that is there something that's been missing in your life that uh you know you're using the camera to get a little bit closer to, or why do you think that the camera is a utility for you to you know sh either showcase or express a relationship with yourself or express a relationship with uh between you and other people?
I think it's it's complicated.
There isn't a simple answer for me.
Um the reason why is because having a camera, let's say you're in a moment and you're sharing an experience with a person or a group of people.
Having a camera uh gives you permission in a sense to interact and be involved, but it also has a level of removal.
You're sort of taking yourself out of the present moment in order to observe it.
Um, so there's this kind of contradiction in that it gives you permission whilst also puts you on the periphery in some way.
Um, but I think having that distance in an experience, whether that's connecting with a person taking portraits or being in a landscape, um it allows me to be a bit more reflective on, I guess I don't I don't I'm not really sure.
Maybe my life or my relationship to the person.
Um it's quite a beautiful thing for me to be able to look through a viewfinder and make compositions and make creative decisions from that vantage point.
Um, it almost takes the pressure off sometimes like having a social interaction with somebody.
Um but you know, it's more nuanced than that.
That's just one it it's it's complicated for me.
And I'm always trying to juggle whether or not I take pictures, or like if I take pictures or if I don't touch the camera, and for the last few months I've hardly taken any pictures.
Um I know I'll come back to it, it always comes back, but what feels rewarding for me is being in the present moment and not having that um distance.
So it's something I'm constantly juggling, but yeah.
Do you I mean I I'm thinking of Gumsucker, your your recent book when you're talking like that, because I think maybe you described it or an article that you were in described um or maybe it maybe it was uh Jesse and Charcoal actually, uh the publisher, but it could have I can't remember it.
Doesn't matter where it's from, but I I heard it being described, or it's certainly the the collective photographs being described as lonely photographs.
Um would you say you're a lonely person?
I mean that might relate to what you're just talking about in terms of you know using the camera to rel relate to people in a sense.
Does that is that an undertone that you think is is prevalent in in your craft?
Uh I'd I wouldn't I wouldn't label myself as a lonely person, but I would say like everybody, I assume, there are periods of loneliness and periods of connection.
And that's a fluctuating thing that I assume will continue on for the rest of my life.
Um if I really think about it, I think the moments in which I've felt isolated and lonely have been my most productive in terms of making work.
Um, whether that's going on a massive road trip by myself or traveling overseas and being alone or feeling um mentally dysregulated and disconnected from community, then I'm taking lots of pictures to try and process and understand.
Um but I think maybe at this point in my life I feel really connected to community and have an abundance of of friends around.
And sometimes I want to take pictures then, but other times it's I don't feel the need to.
So maybe they are kind of lonely photographs in that sense.
They're they're made out of these periods of loneliness.
But I think as a whole, I'm really lucky to have a wonderful community and lots of friends.
And yeah.
Yeah, good for you.
Sorry to cut away from the episode for a minute, but I wanted to talk to you about something very quickly.
Now, I spent a long time thinking that isolation was part of the deal when it came to photography.
That if you were serious about the work, you did it alone.
You'd consume enough, watch enough, read enough, and eventually it would all cohere into something meaningful.
And it sometimes did.
But mostly I was just alone with my doubts and no one to push back on them.
What changed things for me wasn't a course or a workshop.
It was a conversation with someone who was doing the same kind of work and cared about it in exactly the same way I did.
The doubts didn't disappear, but they got a little bit smaller and I felt more okay with them.
They got named.
That's what I'm building with The Mood Insiders.
It's a place where the work is taken seriously, where you can bring your questions and, of course, your half-finished ideas, and where someone will actually engage with them.
We have the ad-free extended podcast episodes with bonus content.
We have monthly masterclasses, QA sessions, and of course the weekly book clubs and direct access to me and my team, because you don't have to do this alone.
So the link is in the show notes, and hopefully I'll see you inside.
When was it then that you've understood that the camera was something that you could use to either hold an emotion or feeling or a moment, or indeed express it?
Because we we have this learning phase when we go through photography.
One thing is just about how to take photographs.
Another thing down the road is potentially how to print in a dark room.
And then there's this kind of area in between where we un we kind of figure out that oh the camera can be used for a little bit more than just a print or the process of that craft or just taking a nice photo so you can put it on Instagram.
But you know, this this understanding that you're talking about in terms of relationships.
In that season of yours, and we'll talk about this later, but maybe uh you change as a person and you start taking slightly different photos, right?
That's that's that's the expression of the camera.
But was there a moment younger when you were younger in learning photography where you the you kind of understood the camera had more depth to its utility than just pretty pictures?
I can think of actually quite a few moments, um both in as my personal journey and relationship to photography and taking pictures and successful moments within that, but then also seeing other people's work and seeing work that I'd never seen before and really moved me.
It changed my perception of what was possible with photography.
If I rewind all the way back to the kind of earliest moment, I had an English assignment when I was in year 10, I think.
Year yeah, I would have been 15, so in year 10.
Um and the assignment was to make a photo essay, and we had to come up with a any sort of concept and then take photos to fulfill the idea.
Essentially like a mini project.
And I borrowed my mum's digital camera and went out and took photographs of people in proximity to trees, either like walking in front of trees in the street, or like some sort of relationship between humans and nature.
And I did the best job I could.
I was really it it felt fun to be doing something creative in English that wasn't writing.
And I submitted the assignment, and then in the next class, or a couple weeks later, the English teacher who was a great teacher, but I don't think particularly liked me because I wasn't a great student, called me out by name and specifically referred to my assignment and gave me full marks, and it just like opened me up inside.
And I felt so validated.
And he showed my project in front of all the other kids and said, like, this is a really beautiful um concept that's been realized through a visual medium through photography.
And I think for me that was kind of validation from an authority figure that you can use photography to share an idea to record and document and share.
Um, so that was probably the first moment.
And funnily enough, all I do now is take portraits of people and landscapes and put them together.
So it's kind of just the same thing.
I have I've been doing it for now 15 years.
This relationship between landscapes and people, is that from you know, the interest born from childhood and your upbringing?
And you know, in Australia, lots of room to explore, and and you said you talk about you know going in your van and just going off and exploring.
Is that where it's kind of born from?
You know, your subject matter in a lot of your photographs?
Yeah, I think so.
I I was really fortunate to uh get to see a lot of proper outback rural Australia as a kid.
My grandparents really loved forward driving and going on long trips out into the desert.
And I've had multiple birthdays in places like the Simpson Desert Chambers Pillar in a Minka, like just completely middle of nowhere, Australia.
Um, and those were such formative experiences.
I had a sense of how remote those places were as a kid, and I think a lot of my work now as a photographer is trying to return to that sense of isolation, but also a feeling of like awe and sublime and being in a natural landscape and trying to capture the complexity of it being extremely beautiful and extremely hostile at the same place at the same time.
And I think where people come into that is there's so much uh emotion that can be conveyed in a portrait.
Um I feel blessed to have such attractive, beautiful friends in my life who are comfortable having their picture taken, and I have a relationship with certain people, certain friends that I've been shooting them now for 10 years, and I've seen them grow as people watch myself grow, my our relationship has changed, and so it makes and makes sense to me to combine the two into this kind of not literal story, but kind of fiction of um the landscape expressing itself with beauty and hostility, and human beings expressing themselves with beauty and suffering, maybe some relationship there.
Now, there comes a point in every photographer's journey where gear or technique stops being the question.
You've learned your camera, you can read light, you know how to edit, how to produce, what a good frame looks like, and you can probably make one on demand quite easily.
But something is still missing.
The work feels good, competent, maybe even pretty, but it doesn't quite feel completely yours.
It doesn't really say anything that couldn't have been said by someone else on Instagram with the same camera.
That's the moment most people get stuck.
Not at the beginning, but right here, right there, somewhere in the middle of it, in the midst of it, where you have all the tools, but not really any of the language.
And the reason it's so hard to move past is because nobody can teach you your voice in a tutorial or a silly little YouTube video.
Because it's not a setting on the dial.
It has to be drawn out of you slowly by methods and introspections that actually allow you to look at yourself and your work and challenge you with the harder questions, all in order to draw out your unique and photographic voice.
That's what my voice alchemy mentorship program is.
It's an online container for photographers who really already know how to use their camera, but want to use it to say something that's more meaningful and that actually matters to them.
Personalized strategy, honest feedback, and the kind of work that builds a body, a voice, and a brand that actually gets noticed.
It's not a course, it's just the thing I always wished I'd had.
And it's the thing I now spend most of my days doing.
The link is in the show notes.
So if something in this is calling you, hit the link and we'll see where you're at.
I just want to fill in the gap between uh art school, graduating, and then now.
What what Haman, did you go into kind of professional areas of photography?
Did you start earning money from it or what what where did you place yourself?
Uh well, I was reflecting on this the other day, actually.
Um dangerous.
Yeah.
After art school, I really struggled.
I I had a really rough time.
Um my mental health was terrible.
I was in and out of kind of periods of deep depression and needed a lot of professional help.
And um that was that went on for probably four or five years, and it took a lot of um effort and eventually discipline and compassion and tolerance for myself to get out of that.
Uh, but I took photos the whole time.
So I was working sort of unrelated jobs, working in kitchens, um essentially in survival mode and not not really doing anything related to professional photography.
Um, but I was taking pictures, and the process of taking pictures helped me through that experience immensely.
It it I mean, it's not a hyperbole to say it saved my life.
It did.
Um yeah.
And so then after getting through that, having more of a healthy relationship with myself and a deeper understanding of the care that I can afford myself, I was then able to like take kind of professional steps with photography.
And now I feel like there's a beautiful trajectory that I'm on.
How old were you at the time you were struggling with uh depression?
Uh I I mean it's kind of hard to pinpoint it to one age because like Okay, bracket, yeah, bracket of it.
There are periods in your life where you're like particularly sad, like something happens, a breakup, or like and you go through six months or a year of being miserable, and then you kind of come out of it.
But I think honestly, from kind of 18 to 24, it was it was hard.
Um, but the worst of it was 21, straight after art school and not having that.
I went straight from high school into um into university.
So I think as soon as that finished, my the whole structure and routine of my life had changed, and I was just out in the world with free time, and that wasn't particularly helpful for me.
Yeah.
Um, I'm sorry that you uh you went through that, but I I think a lot of people listening and watching can can resonate, me included, um, been through those types of periods.
And I think, you know, a lot of humans uh, you know, it's a big spectrum, of course, but we we will all have those those difficult times in our life.
Um, you know, I'm sorry that you were so young that you you went through that, but um what uh you know I recently did a uh an episode with a psychologist, and we talked a lot about mental health, obviously, but um limiting beliefs and and uh and childhood trauma and gre and grieving and how to kind of process that as a creative and why we might find it a little bit more um not difficult, but a little bit more um opaque, I guess, when it comes to finding clarity with how we how we move through it, and we can turn to cameras, we can turn to painting, we can turn to the darkroom.
Um, what else did just just for my audience's benefit?
I think when you were going through that phase, and I don't want to kind of double down on it too much, um, but when you were going through that phase, uh you talked about professional help and you talked about using the camera to you know as a therapy essentially.
What other kind of things helped you through that that phase in your life that you might be able to share with us?
The support of my family and friends, that was huge.
I feel like that was so essential for me.
And I I have a lot of empathy for um people who struggle and don't necessarily have close networks to fall back on.
Um that was huge, but also music.
Music.
Oh my god, and still like it's it's one of my greatest loves.
And the the interplay or the relationship between photography and music is just like wonderful.
And so I was listening to a lot of music, usually quite sad music, a lot of like like miserable ambient music.
Um, but it's kind of validating, it it just allows you to feel like tap into the feeling and really embody it.
And I think through that embodiment, you're able to process it and then eventually let it go.
Um but yeah, music and family and friends.
Have you ever uh uh you don't have to answer this, but uh it's only l only because I was listening to a podcast about uh psychedelics uh yesterday, and I'm I'm absolutely fascinated by them and more of a neuroscientist more from a neuroscience neuroscience perspective and psychology perspective, but the amount of trials and really successful trials and so much data to treat depression with psychedelics as psilocybin or um even LSD, did did that ever enter your world um or or does it now in a in a kind of more therapeutic way?
I mean you don't have to answer that if you don't want to.
I don't know the leg I don't know the legal connotations in Australia of psychedelics.
It doesn't matter.
Um if you're listening to this mum, you know who I am now, it's all good.
Um I I it's complicated for me in that part of the suffering that I was in was a result of being really irresponsible with psychedelics.
Um taking a lot and quite frequently.
I think there was a sense of um creative curiosity with taking acid, um, and the first few experiences I had were extremely intense.
Um there stories that I tell and always get a reaction um insane, life-changing reality.
I can't, I can't, they're too long.
I have such a system for telling them that it'll take 20 minutes.
Okay, um, but really reality kind of bending experiences.
Um and I think having them really early on, round 18, I then was chasing this like need for answers, like trying to understand what those experiences were and continually revisiting again and again without any sense of a need to integrate.
And like you can have a powerful experience, but what's I would say arguably arguably more important is the integration time, allowing yourself to process what you've ex what's come up, what you've seen, where you've gone.
Um having some um level of emotional maturity, which is probably difficult at 18, 19, 20, 21, and really not knowing yourself.
And you know, most people don't really know themselves that well until you know late 20s, early 30s.
Yeah, absolutely.
And the environments in which me and my friends were doing them were like very part party-heavy environments, big festivals where they're designed to just capture your attention all the time.
It's like a playground for adults, and so there's no real opportunity for introspection or going inwards with what I consider medicine.
I mean, I think psychedelics are extremely valuable um tools and medicine, um, but not in those environments.
It's it sort of becomes this like novel um acid y playground where you're constantly drawn, your attention is all over the place.
Um, and that can lead to a feeling of being quite scattered.
Um and but yeah, I think now my I stopped doing kind of everything.
Um part of my process of healing was to adopt this almost like ascetic lifestyle and like was meditating an hour a day, wasn't drinking coffee, wasn't drinking, I was vegan for years, just went into like peace mode, zen mode.
Um, and then that became its own kind of rigid structure that I've now moved away from.
Um and now mushrooms, I think, man, they're teachers.
They'll show you, they'll show you what you need to see and done responsibly.
I will only have very small amounts now, but that's just enough for me to have it's almost like the confusion and dysregulation and everything that goes on in the background of your life can be almost presented to you in this really gentle way.
Um yeah, with a message saying none of it matters.
Um ego gets pushed, pushed away.
That's a huge takeaway.
Nothing matters and everything matters.
Yeah.
I think they're um I think that the times are changing, and I think you know, now it's much more of a um I guess m more of a scientific process in the research, and now you know we see it in in in reality outside of that container, and we see the you know a lot of controlled experiences and you know, in my experience, uh yeah, I've never done it in a in a uncontrolled never done the psilocybin in an uncontrolled way, it's always been supervised and um with a with a specific intent as well to put behind and take just like you would take a panadol for removing pain, but obviously this is completely different.
Um, and I think like for a lot of people, um, my parents always used to say, uh, you know, d don't experiment, you know, it's too dangerous to experiment.
But I now I think the opposite.
I think going through those those years that you might have, it sounds like you experimented with a lot at different extremes, and now you kind of you can pick and choose those tools that might help you either creatively or or with mental health or with your relationships or with your own ego and relation to relationship to the self as well as your thoughts and like you said, distractions and all the shit that just doesn't matter.
Um, I think as we get older we can kind of figure out uh there's a little bit of a the toolkit that I can step into every now and then to to help.
So um it's good that you're in a good place, man, and it's um it's nice to hear your experience has been of of value.
So um and that kind of leads me into your latest book.
And I know you you you did a book um before Gumsucker, but I I didn't really know you then, and I want to talk more about this because I love the book so much.
I arguably the book of 2025.
Um but tell me before before we kind of get into the the idea of Gumsucker and what really what it's about, I just want to know when the photos, you know, published last year, but when were any of the photos you used in Gumsucker taken during those those difficult periods that you you ended up using, or were they much later on?
Uh yeah.
Yeah, they were.
There's not heaps.
I think the oldest photo in Gumsucker is from 2016.
Um, so it's been 10 years of shooting.
Oh I I think there are some pictures that just made it in to Gumsucker that was shot at the end of 2025.
Uh no, sorry.
Um no, not the end of 2020, like mid-2025.
And then it was released.
They were kind of like, yeah, they just slip just made it in.
Um and your friends, you know, a lot of these portraits, are they your friends?
Like you know, all of them.
Everyone is a friend, someone I'm either extremely close with or was extremely close with, but still have some kind of involvement with them.
They're all um really important people in my life.
So um I have the book here.
This was published by um Charco Press uh I think was it October, November 2020?
Yeah, we launched it.
We launched in Paris uh Paris Photo in November.
So Okay.
Um but it was available a little bit before that.
On the book club, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
Um beautiful book.
I'm I'm holding it up to the screen now, the the the cover for those those that are watching, and obviously I can't, you know, we'll we'll show some photos on the screen as we as we talk about it.
Before we go into it in in more detail, just give us a you know, I guess a synopsis of of the book itself, um what it's about.
You know, there's there's not much writing in it, which I absolutely love.
It's it's extremely poetic in its suggested narrative.
But give us uh for those that may not know it, tell us what it's all about, essentially.
It's funny uh being the person who's taken the photos and uh like having such a deep connection to the photos and the people and the process and the memories.
Um I feel like I'm a terrible person to actually ask about the book.
It's not I have no one else to ask about it right now, so totally no, but that's fine.
I'm still happy to give you my my answer and my authentic, I guess, whatever.
Um for me, it's it's not about anything.
Like there's a narrat there's a narrative there, there's a sequence, there is a relationship between the pictures and a common thread that weaves them all together.
And I feel like that's evident in the book.
Everybody will find their own kind of meaning within that, but it's there.
Um, but it's not it's not for me, it's not a project, it's not something I've been working on, like this is gumsucker, and it started at this state, and then it's finished, and the project is complete.
These are just pictures that I've taken in my life.
Um, from places I've been to people I love, and the a beautiful part of the process that was quite unique for me and um uh different from how I'm usually working was giving everything over to Jesse, the publisher.
Um I sent him, I think, something close to 2,000 scans of darkroom prints, and he just went with his intuition, and over it, it took us four years or so to make it.
The first few years was just him revisiting this Google Drive document um and finding photos that spoke to him and pulling them and creating folders um and letting him have access into my archive and the gumsuckers a result of that collaboration between us.
Um and we used uh a sort of loose narrative structure to sequence the book.
He was seeing a lot of um recurring themes of like people within natural landscapes, and then this kind of addition of um human intervention within the landscape.
Um, this kind of incursions and like erosion and the remnants of humans that have been in beautiful places, um, and then this kind of return to an idyllic landscape.
So it kind of moves through that trajectory almost um this sense of paradise and then destruction and intervention and pollution and human bullshit, and then moving into a sort of softer, beautiful return to the natural world.
But that's not what the book is about, that's just how the w where you sequenced it.
Um so yeah, just pictures of my life, really.
I I love um I love you saying all that because I think we we can always be in danger of trying to insert meaning and story when it when it may not be there.
Obviously, a lot of photograph photographers have a concept that they want to go out and and do and make in a project that they they're working on, right?
Um but I yeah, I love the fact that you're you're honest enough to just um there's a there's a there's a real art and beauty in that in itself.
And we'll get onto the collaborative part in a minute, but uh just before we we we do, I want to give it context because Jesse is the owner of charcoal um uh uh publishing and uh you won the uh charcoal publishing prize in 2023, which is the the grand prize of the Chico review, right?
So um I'm interested, you you said this wasn't really uh you know a project that you were necessarily working, but you uh you had to have presented something in Chico, right?
So what was that process like and what were you thinking about when you were presenting a set of images?
Were you just uh as you described it just now?
Were you just right, here's some images, tell me what you think, or were you trying to formulate something uh in the cheat in the Chico review 2023?
So I what I brought to Chico the first year um was a project of sorts.
Uh it was pictures that I'd taken um all around Australia, portraits, landscapes, that kind of thing.
Um, but I was going to locations where bush rangers were active.
Um so in Australia, there's a the the notion, kind of cultural idea of a bush ranger.
Um, and they're essentially 19th century outlaws um that were really prevalent during the gold rush.
Um there was a huge gold rush, especially in um southern Australia and Victoria, and there were a lot of um disenfranchised, extremely poor, almost settler families um that had been sent over from England.
Obviously, Australia was a penal colony, they were either criminals or had a history of their family members being criminals, and these bush rangers would go out and steal gold, um rob uh wealthy people, but also were extremely anti-authoritarian.
And bush rangers now have become this kind of cultural mythology of Australia, and there are a number of extremely famous Bush Rangers that are revered as now heroes of Australian culture.
Um, Ned Kelly is the most famous one.
He had a group called the Kelly Gang, which was him and his brothers and other various people that got involved.
Um, and they went around and terrorized um the Victorian aristocratic class, and it was essentially Robin Hood.
They then shared their wealth with their family and the people in their community.
Um, and I was really, really fascinated by um this kind of cultural mythology and going to these places where there was these acts of violence that took place, but then also with you know a hundred and two hundred, a hundred and fifty years time, have now like these people are celebrated and revered in Australia.
And so that's what I brought to Chico.
Um, and hardly any of those photos are in Gumsucker.
Um they were all dark imprints that made a maquette and everything, and I felt really strongly about the work.
I think it's really um I'm really proud of that.
Uh, but Jesse wanted to see more.
He wanted me to share my archive with him, and so I sent him everything, and he was more inspired by other pictures that I was taking.
And so that was this before you were awarded with the prize, or were you awarded with the prize first and then sent him?
I think he kind of what he um before I was awarded the prize, he sent me a message and was like, Hey, can I see you some more pictures?
And I sent him essentially everything.
Um, so maybe that helped in some way.
And is the um is the pri because I think we're coming up to the prize for this year.
I can't remember where it's announced, either June or July.
Um what do you know what the the process is?
Maybe I should ask Jesse, but did it's is it he is he the one that decides, or is it all of the reviewers kind of vote, or what's the process?
Do you know?
I don't think the reviewers vote.
I think he has the kind of ultimate decision, but um, as you would know, there are lots of people involved with Chico that kind of vote in like his staff, but also photographers themselves.
And so I think there is some sense of discussion amongst people there.
Um just dissecting work, understanding who who is a really strong photographer who's committed to it long term, who might have like which photographer has work that maybe they haven't shown, that's more interesting.
So I think Jesse ultimately would have the final say, but it I think there is a strong sense of like discussion and collaboration amongst everyone who's involved.
Yeah.
And speaking of collaboration, and you mentioned it earlier about the the bookmaking process.
For those that may not understand you know, the relationship between publisher, artist, give us an idea of you know the the collaborative process.
I I I know you said you handed over archive.
To Jesse, but what was that relationship like over four years in terms of the the formulation and the making of this book?
Just give us an insight into that world.
Uh well, I think everybody, yeah.
I I I don't know if that's uh an especially unique way of working.
I think a lot of publishers like to work that way.
Um, the photographer is there to take the pictures and make the work, and the publisher is there to make the book, and they have experience and a set of skills that the photographer doesn't have, and they also are running a business at the same time, so they want it to be profitable, both for them but also the artist.
Um, I think some publishers give a lot more um creative freedom to the artist to do the sequencing and tell the story in the way that they want it to be told.
But when I was working with Jesse, he did essentially all of the sequencing.
Um, he he sent me, I sent him all the photos and said, there you go, like do whatever you want with these.
And he would send me drafts and I would then make comments and revisions and edits on his drafts.
And it I think it took us 12 or 13 drafts of going back and forth and making little adjustments and then uh like more broad kind of revisions.
Um it was scary.
It was scary at first.
Uh by the end of it, I felt really satisfied.
Uh why was it scary?
Just lack of control.
I think it was the first time making a book in that way.
Essentially the first book I'd made.
I had done a small edition with a local publisher um before, but it was a very different process.
Uh I think I had an idea in my head that I'd taken these pictures, these people were important to me.
I have to be the one telling the story.
Um and over the course of four years, I really let go of that, and I'm so glad I did.
It feels it's exciting and interesting to give creative control over somebody else who has their own experiences and their own take on the work.
Um, takes a lot of trust to to do to give someone permission to do that.
Um, but the result is something that I never would have made on my own, and that surprises me and inspires me to keep making more work.
Um Yeah.
What about the design?
You know, you're a very tactile person, and it's really like the dark room and the you know the physical craft of it.
Uh, did you have much say in that, you know, the book is put together so nicely in terms of its texture, material, the paper you use, binding?
Did you have much say in that, or was that kind of a novel thing for you you didn't really have much experience with and didn't want to get involved?
Or how how was that collaboration?
Uh I make a lot of handmade books.
It's my favorite way of working with my pictures.
The materiality, the texture, the different paper stocks is so important to me.
Um, that's the thing that inspires me the most about the medium and making with little silver gelatin prints and putting them in books.
Um and so working with Jesse, I didn't really have any say, not that there wasn't space for me to contribute ideas, but I just let him do it.
Like I saw the quality of charcoal books, they're beautifully printed, and I knew that whatever he put together was going to be a beautiful object.
Um, and I think also it would have been quite difficult being on literal other opposite sides of the world to have conversations or about the feel of of paper.
Um so I I essentially gave him full reign, and I didn't see the book in physical form until the launch in Paris when it was when I sat down to sign them.
Yeah.
Wow.
So it was a surprise for me.
I was looking at it for the first time and then citing copies for people.
Um that's amazing.
Yeah, I was so I was so happy with the final result.
I'd only ever seen a PDF.
Um, but to his credit, you did a wonderful job making a beautiful, I would say quite traditional photo book, but but still has elements of surprise and play.
Now, when it comes to photography, the whole infrastructure of the internet rewards speed.
Post more, post faster, be first, be everywhere.
The algorithm doesn't care whether you went deep.
It cares whether you showed up yesterday.
And I guess that's not photography specific.
Now, for me, I built my work around a different bet that there are people who would rather go slowly and understand something fully than go fast and understand probably nothing.
That depth is not a liability, that the work you make when you take your time is categorically different from the work you make when you're chasing the feed, maybe, or chasing the algorithm.
Now, the Mood Insiders is built on that same bet.
It's a private community for photographers and visual artists who are serious about the slow work.
We have monthly masterclasses where we actually go deep on craft and thinking.
We have a weekly book club, monthly QA's.
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It's not another newsletter you'll forget about, not a Discord server full of noise.
It's a room with a small number of serious people and a very clear and supportive focus.
It's just $19 a month.
The link is in the show notes, and I really hope I can see you inside.
Um, tell me more about that, uh, I guess rewind a little bit in terms of Chico, what Chico means to you.
You know, we visited, we met each other in Chico this year, and you were coming back as an alumni, like I said, doing a workshop with Raymond Meeks.
Um, I know you feel strongly about the the community that Chico is, as well as obviously other photography communities and and reviewing events, etc.
Tell me tell me more about that and why it means so much to you.
It's wonderful.
It's a wonderful place.
It's so it really is.
The landscape is beautiful, just that part of the world is completely enchanting.
But the opportunity to spend a week with people with 80, 100 people who get it, like they get it, and you have the same references and the same love for the medium.
Like, oh my god, it's incredible.
Like, I think photography, uh it it can be quite a lonely medium.
You're this like single operator out in the world, disc one step removed from everything going on.
Um there are moments of collaboration, but really it's just you and your camera and trying to make sense of everything.
And so to have the opportunity to go to a an environment as beautiful as that in rural Montana and be in the snow, didn't snow this year, but it snowed other years, and be in the hot springs and have a beer with someone who also loves photography as much as you.
It's like so cool.
So cool.
Disappointed it in snow actually this year.
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, like a bit.
That's why I go.
Like, I live in the in the tropics, and you live in a warm country as well.
Like, we want some snow.
Everyone was so happy.
I mean, the weather was glorious, like it was warm and and clear skies, and everyone was like, Oh, this is wonderful.
And you and I, having come from Australia and Balinese summer, we're like, Where's the blizzard?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I want to be cozy in front of a fire drinking beer.
Yeah.
Um give me, like, as an alumni, you've been to Chico, was that your third time?
Yeah, three times.
Three times, yeah.
Um, what you know, for people looking at potentially, you know, I've been promoting Chico enough this year, but um maybe you can do do that job a little bit for me now.
What what would you what piece of advice would you get?
It's expensive, especially if you're uh and especially if you're coming from a long way like us or even from Europe.
You know, the the the the fee alone plus accommodation, flies, etc.
It's it's a it's a big deal.
What advice would you give people who are either thinking about it or are definitely gonna going to do it?
What how would you advise them to go about uh coming with the right attitude and and how to think about the Chico experience?
Um it is prohibitively expensive for a lot of people, and I would say that is one of the biggest downsides.
It's unfortunate that in order for it to operate and be what it is, it has to be pretty expensive.
It's a singular, unique opportunity that doesn't really exist.
It doesn't exist anywhere else in the world.
Um and in order for it to be sustainable and to run, there is a fee involved, uh, which sucks because that might deter a lot of incredible photographers making extraordinary work that just don't have the means to go.
Um having said that, I haven't had a conversation.
I've been three times, I've met a lot of people, I haven't met a person who has said it's not worth it.
Um, everybody comes away with something enriching that justifies the expense and the travel and the emotional toll of it.
I mean, holy shit, like it's taxing, it's so exhausting to have conversations about I would say most people there, photography is their greatest passion, or at least one of them, and to have to continually express your love whilst also receiving other people's love for it and then talk about something that's really or not love for it, and talk about something that's really vulnerable to you, your art like vulnerable for you, it's it's exhausting.
And so there is a lot of um cost involved, more than just the actual literal financial cost.
Uh, but man, it's extremely special.
It's wonderful.
It's difficult to put into words, isn't it?
Because you think about it as like, oh, this black and white portfolio review, you go and you find out whether your body of work is on the right track or not, and if people are interested in it.
It's that's like it's far away from that.
Uh yes, there's there is that that that's almost a byproduct of it.
The um, you know, this metaphorical hug that you you get from 80 hundred people if you're if you're lucky to to meet everyone, um is indescribable.
Um and the support, like you said, you're in one location for a week knowing that everyone around you, literally everyone around you, gets it.
Gets gets you, maybe not kind of likes your work.
Everyone can't like your work, but they get you and they get where you what you're trying to do, and they get why you love it, and they get you know your passion for it.
That's in today's society where everything is siloed and and polarized, it's just so difficult to do that.
Anyway, and like you said, we are lonely, maybe not lonely, but we're solitary figures, uh going out into the world and just trying to make sense of it with our cameras, and then trying to be this focused environment is uh where everyone is in in the same boat together, is just so so powerful.
So that's the uh you know, that's the thing I would agree with you and suggest that people really think about is and Jesse told me this before Chico, um, and I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I want to sh I wanna help But he's so right, you know, it's about it yeah, okay, you can you can slap words like networking and community and all that kind of stuff, but it's really just people understanding you, and that is just so it's just so meaningful and and powerful, and it's just for a short week, but it's you know it's like a drug that you want to keep getting um all the time.
So that's that's credit to Jesse, what they put together, as well as all the reviewers that I know don't go there for money because I know that they don't get paid, they could get paid more doing other things.
But um, yeah, big credit to to to the setup and hopefully um I'll be back next year.
Are you gonna go back next year?
Uh I'm not sure.
I I don't think so.
Um sent a message to Jesse to see if he'll help me back.
Um but maybe I'll reach I've reached the end of my uh tether with his generosity.
He's he he has he has invited me back a lot.
So um yeah, maybe I maybe I can be a reviewer one day.
We'll see.
Yeah, I'm sure you will be.
Um and if you know, just to tie a loop on the Chico thing.
So for people who can't afford it and or it's just not for them because it's not for everyone, where would you suggest people go or turn to to share their work?
Um get get a similar kind of community feeling?
Because it's still quite difficult, especially I don't know about you, but here in Indonesia, you know, it's it's difficult to find the same thing that you might be able to get in America or Europe.
If people can't quite get to Chico, what how how can you advise them to find a similar type of thing?
Is it social media?
Yeah, I I absolutely loathe social media.
So uh, you know, I I'm not gonna give it any credit, although it probably deserves some because it has been beneficial.
Um I think it's dependent on on where you are.
If you're in a big city, um Melbourne, I don't know, London or Paris or New York, maybe not a huge city like that, but somewhere where there are lots of people.
Um I would it depends on the also the work that you want to make and what your relationship is to photography.
What do you want to get out of it?
If you want to share your work and make a book, then finding a local book club or a group of getting together a group of people um within your community who have photo books just to look at them might be a really powerful way of just sharing some of your pictures.
But yeah, if you want to be a an exhibiting artist, look at artist run spaces, look at Aries, look at local like galleries that aren't commercial big operations, and just put your work on the walls.
They usually will have an open call, they'll have a group show.
Um just start by really putting yourself out there and seeing your work off a screen, even off a print in your room and seeing it on a wall in a gallery space, and then you go to the opening.
I love exhibition openings, I love them.
They're sometimes extremely pretentious and uncomfortable, stuffy places.
But if there's wine and cheese, like I'm there.
And you go to the opening and you meet people who either are exhibiting alongside you or are there because they're interested in art and you just have conversations.
And it's incredible what happens when you when you do that, and the things that then present themselves to you.
Um, so many opportunities arise from just taking the step and doing something like submitting to a group show.
Um, there's so many ways to be an artist in the world.
It can be extremely difficult, and it is a luxury, it's a privilege to make art, and it I I that is not lost on me at all.
Not a lot of people have this privilege um and can afford to do what we do.
Um, but yeah, it's um it's a wonderful thing to be a creative and to share your work in small steps.
There's many ways to be an artist.
You don't have to go to Chico, you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on uh self-publishing a book.
You can start small and see what happens.
I think people can place quite a lot of emphasis on the this word networking, or I need to network, I need to connect.
But actually, as soon as you if you flip it and start thinking about, well, I'm just gonna share my work somewhere and see uh what happens, the networking is downstream of that.
You know, like I said, just get if you you go to an exhibition opening or you just you know answer an open call and put your work on the wall.
Connections come from that, community comes from that, and that's the beauty of of sharing your work.
But a lot of people feel daunted and fearful of sharing their work, which is uh another mindset issue, I think, that people you know, limiting beliefs that people have to try and battle through.
Um last few questions, I I'll kind of make it a a quick fire round.
Um in the same uh I guess tone of uh the Chico reviews in this world and the galleries, and you you mentioned that a uh a a lot of galleries can be snobby and elitist, which is just the art world generally in at at though in those echelons.
Do you think the photography world is can be elitist, or at least there's gatekeeping in in certain respects?
Specifically the publishing world, it it can be perceived like that.
We've got to know the right people, you've got to be friends with a publisher to kind of get in there.
Do you do you feel that too?
Yeah, absolutely.
Uh it's it's it would be inaccurate to say that is the full picture, but it is definitely a part of photography.
I think that's um as an extension of the art world as a whole.
Um there is a lot of elitism and gatekeeping, and um that's really frustrating.
It's really it it's I even see that within Australia, which you know, relative to the rest of the world, isn't a huge export of art, amazing artists.
We have a lot, but um unfortunately we don't celebrate it as much as I think it should be.
But within the prize sort of awards that Australia has, the big category awards, you see the same names every single year as finalists.
Yeah.
Uh then you know these are people who've been making art for 20, 30 years and they're already celebrated, already revered.
This is not to discredit them and say that they don't make good work, but you you you see the list of finalists in whatever I'm not gonna start name-dropping awards, but this sense of almost like nepotism.
It's like this internal world of socializing where um the same people are are awarded because they can play the game really well, and that feels so frustrating and alienating for people who uh don't have any reputation.
Um, they could make extraordinary work, but the name and the reputation seems to get you far in this world.
Um, having said that, I think there are a lot of incredible publishers uh and artists and galleries and curators who are rejecting that upper echelon art world.
Uh you see that, do you?
Yeah, I do see it.
I I think there are people who are taking risks with publishing and making books that might not necessarily be immediately commercial.
Uh they're not easy, they're playful, they're uh you know exploratory, experimental.
Um they're sacrificing sort of existing within that upper crust of the art world to make work that is actually engaging.
Um and I do I do see it.
It is there.
How do we fix this gatekeeping mentality, or is it just something we have to work around?
Beat the rich.
A short note before we close.
For a while now, the first thing I've done most mornings before the camera or any other work or before the coffee, before the endless tabs is sit for 10, 20, 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise does.
It hasn't just made me calmer in the way people imagine.
Me more honest, more mindful, more compassionate, and more free in more ways than I could even describe.
And that honesty and introspective clarity, more than any lens, workshop, or book, is really what changed my photography.
The work I make now comes from a quieter place with more clearness and calmness.
I notice what I'm reaching for, and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing.
The inner critic still talks, still exists.
I just don't believe everything he says anymore.
The app I've used for most of this is Waking Up by Sam Harris.
It's the one tool I've genuinely kept returning to all this time.
This is not a paid sponsorship from them.
However, I am an affiliate partner, and for good reason, I believe that this app is worth it more than any other.
What's kept me there for years is that it's not just one thing is a guided daily meditation, which is the spine of it for me.
But there are also short daily reflections, a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background.
And these little moments, they call it, of awareness you can drop into during the day.
Two-minute resets when the head starts running.
There's also an entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have found on my own, and a lot more besides that.
It keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine.
So a link sits in the show notes for a free 30-day trial and 20% discount on their subscriptions.
If you want the longer story though, of how meditation reshaped my work, there's also a piece linked through my Substack page called There's No Self-Development Without Self-Awareness.
Anyway, hope you enjoy.
Thanks for listening.
Yeah.
Okay, let's not get into politics.
Um, last few questions.
Uh what is your and these come from my audience.
So these last few questions, these quick fire questions come from my audience that wanted to ask you some questions.
So um some big questions in here.
What is your wish for photography itself over the rest of your working life?
Wow.
Uh I wish for it to continue to do what it always has done for me, and that it's to understand the world and relationships and myself in a way that is fulfilling and helps me helps me be a better person, I think.
Where do you see that not happening then?
In the social media world, in the influencer world, in the kind of the commercialization of photography, in AI, or where do you see that not happening?
For me personally, or like uh just in the industry generally.
Is it an education thing?
Like we're not teaching, we don't we we don't teach photographers properly, or you know, what is what is it that where is really sure.
My immediate response to that without having thought about it for a long time is that um a lot of a lot of people's egos get in the way.
Um they they run the show.
And I think with photography, maybe art in general, but for some reason I see it a lot in photography, and maybe that's because that's the world I'm involved in.
Um people feel like they really have to like prove themselves and their value with their work and um validation.
Yeah, they need to give them yeah, they need the validation, they need the attention.
Um, I think that prevents really good work from being made.
Great answer.
I love it.
Is that your feeling?
Does that connect with your feeling around social media then?
Is that why you loathe it so much?
Uh I loathe it because of the absolute chokehold it has on my life.
Uh, I think I I have a you know proclivity towards addictive behaviors.
And uh gotcha.
It it for whatever reason, just like it's like I'm a kid with lollies and I have to be extremely disciplined about my use of social media.
What's your go-to to s to you know, I presume Instagram's your social media of choice, or is it something else?
And what are you what is your drug of choice when you're when you're on that platform?
It it used to be YouTube, but then I installed like a an extension on Chrome that uh blocks all of the home feed and the like suggested videos.
So now I can only like watch intentional, like I'm gonna watch this YouTube video or people I subscribe to.
Um and I did the same with Instagram as well, where I got an extension that blocks all the reels and only shows you content from people that you follow.
Um because those two together, if they're like unrestricted, I'm just like go on doom scrolling, yeah, doom scrolling on the toilet until your your legs go numb.
Yeah, it sucks.
Um well, I look forward to seeing your subscription to my YouTube channel.
Um yeah.
Enough joking.
As a reminder to my audience, if you haven't subscribed, please subscribe.
Subscribe to this guy.
Yeah.
Button here.
I don't want to be that guy.
I've never been that guy, but um, you know, I have some people telling me I need to be more of that guy.
Um I digress.
Last two questions.
Um What do you know now that you wish the version of you at the National Art School had known?
So at your art school, what do you know now that you wish the version of you back then had known?
That you are not gonna die and it's gonna be all good.
Wow.
Nice.
Last one.
If a listener changes one thing about their own photography tomorrow because of this conversation, what would you want that to be?
What a great question.
Wow, that is a great question.
Uh if they change one thing about their photography listening to this, what would I want it to be?
Yeah.
I would want this person, but also everyone with a practice, a creative practice, to really truly find your voice.
What is it about your life that is unique to you?
Uh, speak once you find that, create art from that place.
Uh, I think a lot of people get caught up in trying to over-articulate or over-conceptualize their work.
They like we spoke about this before, they have a project with an idea.
Um, but I want I want for everyone's idea to be their authentic self-expression.
Um, yeah, that's the work that really moves me when you see someone's world in their pictures.
I I uh this is a good time to plug my mentorship because it's all about that.
But I couldn't agree with you more.
My follow-up question to that though, which is because you said um it's it's such a um a big meaningful uh output in terms like when we when you and I and the majority of people connect with art 99.9% of the time is because the artist has found the voice and they're speaking from that, right?
So, you know, when people always ask me if if a good photo if a photo is good or bad, or this book is better than this book, or why this you know, often there's not such a thing as good or bad as just what something means to you more than another thing.
It's always because of the authentic voice that it is coming from.
But my follow-up question would be how does one go about finding their voice?
Until next time.
Yeah.
To be continuing.
To be continued.
Uh for me, I I think it's different for everybody.
I think part of finding your voice is finding how to find access to your voice.
And um I think for me that I I'm still trying to do that.
I think if you have a practice, um you will be trying to do that for the duration that you have that practice.
Hopefully, that's the rest of your life.
Um, for me, the best thing I think I could have done for myself was to just take so many photos, like just have your camera with you and just take photos.
And there is this internal voice that we all carry with us that tells us that like stops us from taking a photo in the moment.
Like you're almost thinking about the audience before anything has come to fruition, and that little voice can be like, oh no, that's not a good picture.
Like, don't take that, especially if you're shooting film, like there's a financial element to it as well.
Oh, yeah.
Um, but man, just like take the picture, just take it.
Like, it could be terrible, but what's the worst that happens?
You spend 50 cents or a dollar on that negative, you've lost that picture.
But for me, I am now revisiting photos that I've taken 10 years ago and the pictures that I completely overlooked.
This isn't unique to me.
I think a lot of artists talk about this.
Very cool.
You revisit it and it's like, there it is.
Like, there it is.
That's what I'm trying to do now.
I did it back then and I didn't even know.
So just take the photo and then you find your voice that everything matures and percolates with time something emerges that is you.
Uh I love it.
I think um a tiny little anecdote from the uh last week I was in on this island called Sumba, spent hours east of Bali, and have a relationship with with people there.
I've been going back for a while.
And but I don't, I'm not there all the time, maybe a couple of times a year.
And it always takes and maybe you, I think everyone might resonate with this, takes me a few days to like get the confidence back up to shoot, especially if I'm shooting people and trying to speak, you know, they speak a different language.
I'm trying to connect with the you're trying to ask permission to like enter their house and you know, all those types of like access things that when you're out by yourself on a scooter in the middle of butt f nowhere, you're you're just having to just get it done.
And I would, you know, last week I found myself doing it, you know, I've been practicing this for you know a decade, and I still drive past a house or somewhere, and I go, that looks amazing, those people look interesting, and the lights amazing.
I just let's stop and take a photo.
What's the worst that can happen?
And maybe I get mugged, but not in this place.
The people are so so nice, and then I'm playing those, so I'm not sure if I can be bothered, and then it's awkward, like awkward trying to, you know, and then I know that everyone, because I'm the only white guy within miles, everyone's gonna come and like try and get my attention and get in cameras and like you know, that whole attention thing.
And I just want to not be seen.
And so I'm like, I found myself driving back and forth, like passing us out, turning around.
No, come on, you just go and take just go and get access and do it.
So um, yeah, that that little voice in my head is just take the photo, uh, you know, just just go and do it.
It's very, very rare that you will regret taking that photo.
And like you said, if if it doesn't come out and you don't even think about it, so oh, it just didn't work, right?
But at least I tried.
So nice bit of advice.
Adding on to that as well, what one of the things I'm really um focusing on in my life at the moment is the idea of momentum, positive and negative momentum.
And I think even if the photo is bad, even if it doesn't work, if you commit yourself to taking the picture, that builds a sense of momentum.
You're more likely to take another picture next time because you have something behind you, the steam.
I think this is applicable for literally anything in your life.
I think about it in relationship to like partying and drinking.
Not that it's like a huge problem, but like if I've had a drink and then another like over a weekend, like you build up a kind of momentum in like, yeah, I'll just have another drink.
But you can you can play with this.
It's wonderful.
Once you're aware of, well, for me at least, it's a way I live my life, but once you're aware of this momentum, you're like, actually, you know, I want to like move in this direction.
I just have to take the first step and then the second step, and then the third step, the third step is already taken.
Like it's and then you're off and away.
It's any, I mean, momentum's just energy, and uh, you know, believe so much in the power of energy, uh, whether it's positive or negative, um, whether it's physical or mental, uh, I I couldn't agree with you more and just being able to like come into an environment or come into a situation with that first step and that positive movement.
Or you might fall into the other way.
You might take one negative step that that the that gathers momentum in itself, but it it works, it works so well in the photography world uh when you're when you're out there by yourself and and yeah, that momentum is a is a is a great concept to think about.
Um Rory, uh that's it for us.
Thank you so much for um taking time to to sit with me here and and for especially for your honesty and your vulnerability and humility, especially.
So uh for someone that's that's done a lot in the game and that has so much experience, um, I think it was a a real pleasure to talk to you.
And I I know my audience would be grateful for uh the insights they've gained today.
So yeah, thank you once again.
Yeah, cool.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
It's been a really wonderful chat.