Robin Ince and the joy of popular-science books

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Physics World. Hello, and welcome to the Physics

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World Stories podcast.

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I'm Andrew Glester, and it's December,

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which is as good a time as any

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for settling down with a wonderful

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science book. And in this episode, we'll be

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hearing from Robin Ince, whose book, The Importance

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of Being Interested, is one of my favorites

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of this year. But first, his Physics World

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editor, Matin Jirani,

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and features editor, Toshnika Masaryat,

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discussing the books featured

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in this month's edition of the Physics World

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magazine.

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Yeah. We've got a really interesting mix of

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books for the festa read section this year.

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One of our first reviews is by Emma

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Chapman, who is an astronomer at the University

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of Nottingham. And she's reviewed this book called

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First Dawn from the Big Bang to our

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Future in Space, which is written by,

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Roberta Batista. And it's it's a really interesting

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book. I enjoyed her review because she said

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that she started reading it thinking it was

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gonna be about one thing, which is her

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field, which is how the first sort of

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stars are born. And then it turned out

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to be about pretty much everything else. Mhmm.

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And she really enjoyed this going on this

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journey of not knowing about things. And the

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book actually

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really highlights,

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what we don't know about the universe. And

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as a scientist, she really enjoyed this journey

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of all the things we don't know, which

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means there are things just out there to

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discover.

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Interesting. So that's Emma Chapman and, look forward

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to reading that. So what else have we

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got, Tishna? Well, we have Anita Chunderin reviewing

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a book that I personally, I'm looking forward

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to reading over the holiday period. It's called

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Horizons, A Global History of Science by James

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Poskett.

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And this book,

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really highlights,

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the view, that, you know, more you know,

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there's this idea that modern science really originated

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in Europe and the West and the West

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alone.

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And,

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Poskett really wants to, highlight that this is

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a myth,

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and that it's,

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that there are so many examples of science

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across

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the east and and other parts of the

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world, you know, whether it's Latin America, etcetera,

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the Arabic world,

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Asia,

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and and

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so much of that science history is just

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written out of history. And

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so, you know,

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he just wants to really highlight that the

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way

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science the history of science is recorded and

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taught really needs to be reassessed

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and that we need to take

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accountability

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for this idea that science really originated in

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Europe, which, you know Sounds very worthy and

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important book. And some some really great examples

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of if you're a fan of scientific history,

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then some really amazing new examples, some stories

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you'd like to bring up in the pub

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later, I'm sure. Excellent.

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Anything else this month? Yeah. We have a

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number of other shorter reviews too.

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A a really interesting book might be, Nomad

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Century,

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by science journalist,

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Gaia Vince. And this is about, climate change,

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which is really no surprise in this day

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and age.

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But the book really highlights what happens as

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the effects of climate change become very real

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for people across the planet. The book really

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highlights,

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that if we don't take into account the

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effects of climate change and do something to

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reverse it, we're all going to become climate

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refugees

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in the next century.

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So, some sobering updates there. Sounds a bit

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depressing.

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Perfect for the holiday reading, but yeah, it's

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an important book. So yeah. Excellent. So thanks,

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Tushna. So that's the festive read section. Yeah.

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And there's loads of other really good, content

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in this month's issue. So please do enjoy

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it, and have a good holiday season.

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Thanks, Matin and Tushnet.

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Robin Ince is a comedian, actor, and writer.

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Who you might know best for his work

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with Brian Cox, including presenting the BBC Radio

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4 radio show and podcast, The Infinite Monkey

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Cage. Robin has an insatiable

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love of books, and wrote his own book

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this year, entitled, The Importance of Being Interested.

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Well, the reason for, importance of being interested

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really was because partly,

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as a non scientist who spent a lot

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of time putting on different science shows, I've

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known how many people felt that science was

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not the thing they could do. So it's

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not even that science wasn't for them, that

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it was somehow

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a rather exclusive place, and they didn't have

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the armament, the mental armament that allowed them

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in. So that was one of the reasons.

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In fact, that was really the main reason,

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which I just thought you don't have to

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worry about having a deep understanding.

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You don't have to worry about, you know,

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I mean, when when people come to the

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show that I'm touring with Brian at the

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moment, I know there's a period of time

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where the majority people in that room probably

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don't really understand it. But I think a

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lot of those people in that room are

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now beginning to be more comfortable going, okay,

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I didn't really get that bit, but it's

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a seed. It's the beginning of something, and

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it doesn't really matter. You know, you don't

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have to everyone who tries to do science

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doesn't have to go, oh, and it turned

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out I didn't win the Nobel Prize. It

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was rubbish. It is really about the fact

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that from my personal experience,

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the more

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that I've engaged with scientific ideas, the more

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interesting

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all the things around me are. At least

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that kind of idea of the world becomes

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a palimpsest, you know,

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suddenly when you look at something, when you

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look at the moon or you look at

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an earthworm,

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whatever it might be,

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there are more layers

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that you see. So so there are just

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more stories inside it. Well, was there because

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you're, as you say, not a scientist yourself.

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Was there a particular

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spark? Was it a gradual thing? How did

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it happen, that original thing? It was like

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I liked science at school, then I didn't

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do very well in one exam, and that

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was enough to destroy me.

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And, so I had no interest in science.

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And then really it was probably in my,

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I think mid twenties. I remember I was

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on tour with Dave Gorman,

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and I popped into a bookshop and bought

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3 science books. And,

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and I just started reading them. And I

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thought, oh, yeah. I do still really like

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all this stuff.

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And then that was the kind of the

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seed for me to go, oh, do you

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know what? I'm gonna put on these shows,

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which kind of have

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musicians and comedians, but I'll sneak in the

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theoretical physicist.

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And then that's just what ended up leading

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to me putting on just entirely science based

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shows. And then that how I got involved

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in what eventually we made into the Infinite

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Monkey case. So I remember seeing you in

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a very,

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interesting place in Charlton

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many years ago, and it was your bad

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book club thing. And I there wasn't much

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of a sense of science then. Yeah. It

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would be 97, 98 that I was touring

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with Dave. But I didn't start I mean

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the bad book club didn't have any I

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mean every now and again there might be

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a science book it just depended on the

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night. But at that point they were 2

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separate things and then actually what happened with

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the bad book club was

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that was almost the beginning

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of

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I had the the the show that I

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did the same year that I started book

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club was a show that had a lot

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more science in it or perhaps I should

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say a lot more skepticism in it rather

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than science

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And, I had little bits about homeopathy and

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little bits about,

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iridology and all manner of bits and pieces

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like that. And that was kind of my

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gateway in. And then when I started book

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club after about a year and a half,

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I thought why didn't I also put on

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a night which rather than celebrating strange bits

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of pulpy literature people celebrate ideas they found

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from books that they adore and that excite

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them and that so I started I think

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the first version it was called something like

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the school for gifted children

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and then it went under various different titles.

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And then it became 2 things. There was

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9 lessons and carols for what is now

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called 9 Lesson Carols for Curious People, and

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then Compendium of Reason,

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which I normally do with Brian. But it

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was yes. So it was around the same

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time as book club. I was then working

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on what initially was a separate idea, and

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then one led into well, they they kinda

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went back and forth, really. Okay. So the

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the the very clear thing, right, and this

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isn't a surprise to me, is that books

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are really important.

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So when you've written a popular science book.

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Is it a popular science book what you've

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written here?

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I it's been reasonably popular.

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The, no. It's,

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I think it is because I think it

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is, I think

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anyone with a with a minor interest can

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read it. It's not one of those popular

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science. I mean, I've I've deliberately tried to

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make sure

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that it's not it doesn't talk down to

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people. I'd I'd, you know, I I I

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wanna make sure that my you know, that's

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why quite often sometimes when I'm describing things

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or when I'm reporting the speech of a

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cosmologist, I will say at this point I

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had no idea really what was going on.

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So I want people to, like me, you

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know, know that because I think sometimes people

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think I understand a lot more than I

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actually do. You know, I think it's one

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of the important parts I think quite often,

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with working with Brian is at times I

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will say just so you know, you're not

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the only person in the room who doesn't

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understand all of this because, you know, I

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really don't want people to depart from any

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of those events, so the solo events or

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events with friends thinking that they are not

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able to you know misunderstand not being able

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to understand things is important that means you're

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going into a direction which is more interesting

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if you understand everything you hear then you're

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not necessarily in the right room. I think

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yeah. I mean, I I really wanted it

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to be avail I I mean, I know

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that people as young as, 11 have read

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it, and I've had reports back from them,

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and they've enjoyed it. And I got one

269
00:09:24,790 --> 00:09:26,389
of my favorite things was getting a message

270
00:09:26,389 --> 00:09:28,365
from a 92 year old who said it's

271
00:09:28,365 --> 00:09:29,884
the book that I've been waiting for. And,

272
00:09:29,884 --> 00:09:31,725
you know, that's what I I I wanted

273
00:09:31,725 --> 00:09:33,504
to create was something that,

274
00:09:34,285 --> 00:09:35,985
was totally accessible.

275
00:09:37,085 --> 00:09:38,684
And and that was a very, very important

276
00:09:38,684 --> 00:09:40,945
part of it. There's an interesting census

277
00:09:41,450 --> 00:09:43,929
from last year, which has been released recently,

278
00:09:43,929 --> 00:09:46,990
which suggests that people who are of

279
00:09:47,370 --> 00:09:48,889
I mean, I don't know quite what this

280
00:09:48,889 --> 00:09:50,490
means, but sort of people who are of

281
00:09:50,490 --> 00:09:54,029
no religion, no reported religion, is a rapidly

282
00:09:54,089 --> 00:09:54,589
growing

283
00:09:54,975 --> 00:09:58,174
secular society. Is that, to your mind, linked

284
00:09:58,174 --> 00:10:00,674
to a kind of scientific or skeptical worldview?

285
00:10:01,054 --> 00:10:03,294
I'm not sure it is. I I I

286
00:10:03,294 --> 00:10:05,375
think it might be linked to that sense

287
00:10:05,375 --> 00:10:07,214
that for a part of for a period

288
00:10:07,214 --> 00:10:07,875
of time,

289
00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:10,250
there was the idea that we might be

290
00:10:10,250 --> 00:10:11,769
moving a little bit close to some form

291
00:10:11,769 --> 00:10:14,250
of post war utopia and then really since

292
00:10:14,250 --> 00:10:16,649
1979 we would so I think it may

293
00:10:16,649 --> 00:10:18,570
well even, you know, rather sadly it might

294
00:10:18,570 --> 00:10:20,809
come from that pessimistic view that it's, the

295
00:10:20,809 --> 00:10:21,309
disappointment

296
00:10:21,815 --> 00:10:23,735
of human beings. I mean interestingly today I

297
00:10:23,735 --> 00:10:25,274
was at a museum of religion

298
00:10:25,735 --> 00:10:27,254
and it's and as I was going around

299
00:10:27,254 --> 00:10:29,595
it I thought oh it's an Asian civilizations,

300
00:10:30,454 --> 00:10:32,695
museum and it's just packed with all of

301
00:10:32,695 --> 00:10:33,834
these fantastic

302
00:10:34,620 --> 00:10:35,840
stories of gods

303
00:10:36,299 --> 00:10:37,039
and pranksters,

304
00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:39,600
and then you get into the Christian room

305
00:10:39,740 --> 00:10:41,740
and it's just like you go, oh, here's

306
00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,139
original sin and I died for you and

307
00:10:44,139 --> 00:10:45,840
there's guilt and misery.

308
00:10:46,554 --> 00:10:48,075
So I think that might play its part

309
00:10:48,075 --> 00:10:50,075
as well because, you know, every other room,

310
00:10:50,075 --> 00:10:51,355
you know, you you yeah. I was looking

311
00:10:51,355 --> 00:10:52,274
at some of the stuff that comes from

312
00:10:52,315 --> 00:10:54,315
I always probably mispronounces the Vedas, you know,

313
00:10:54,315 --> 00:10:56,575
the books that actually were big influencer. Oppenheimer,

314
00:10:56,715 --> 00:10:58,315
you know, looked into them a great deal.

315
00:10:58,315 --> 00:11:00,200
And in fact, it's always interesting that quite

316
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,919
a few quantum physicists were drawn towards Eastern

317
00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:03,419
Mysticism.

318
00:11:04,279 --> 00:11:05,959
Because the I I don't know. There seems

319
00:11:05,959 --> 00:11:07,959
to be such a great level of ideas

320
00:11:07,959 --> 00:11:08,459
there,

321
00:11:08,759 --> 00:11:10,279
and so many more things to play with,

322
00:11:10,279 --> 00:11:11,419
and a love of knowledge,

323
00:11:12,465 --> 00:11:14,544
and, and it's not ashamed of of things

324
00:11:14,544 --> 00:11:16,544
like sex and sexuality and all those other

325
00:11:16,544 --> 00:11:18,865
things. Whereas I I think in another way,

326
00:11:18,865 --> 00:11:20,004
you know, something about

327
00:11:20,705 --> 00:11:22,544
some forms of Christianity. I'm not saying the

328
00:11:22,544 --> 00:11:23,764
whole Christian story,

329
00:11:24,304 --> 00:11:25,605
but the way the organized

330
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,440
or the organizers of these things have often

331
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:30,600
used it is to make you go, you're

332
00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,459
guilty. You did a bad thing,

333
00:11:32,759 --> 00:11:34,360
and God's angry with you. So you have

334
00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,440
this kind of terrible role model of a

335
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,620
father. And sadly, I think it does influence,

336
00:11:39,215 --> 00:11:41,455
or certainly has influenced what people think you're

337
00:11:41,455 --> 00:11:44,335
meant to be as a as a patriarch

338
00:11:44,335 --> 00:11:46,014
in in some ways. So, yeah, I'm not

339
00:11:46,014 --> 00:11:47,455
that that's sort of a very long answer,

340
00:11:47,455 --> 00:11:48,735
but it's, but I just wanna tell you

341
00:11:48,735 --> 00:11:50,095
it's an excellent museum. If you go to

342
00:11:50,095 --> 00:11:51,375
Singapore, you should make sure you go to

343
00:11:51,375 --> 00:11:52,754
the Museum of Asian Civilizations.

344
00:11:54,009 --> 00:11:56,250
But it's, yeah. I I think and it's

345
00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:57,929
also there's another thing which I think is

346
00:11:57,929 --> 00:11:59,370
interesting which we need to play around with

347
00:11:59,370 --> 00:12:01,450
a lot more. We really do need to

348
00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:04,169
push doubt a lot more into beyond science

349
00:12:04,169 --> 00:12:06,570
and beyond that battle against ideology. That thing

350
00:12:06,570 --> 00:12:08,955
of being comfortable with doubt. Because I think

351
00:12:08,955 --> 00:12:09,914
something that comes from

352
00:12:10,634 --> 00:12:12,095
I think of it as predominantly

353
00:12:12,554 --> 00:12:14,014
as a Western culture thing.

354
00:12:14,714 --> 00:12:17,754
And in particular perhaps English culture or English

355
00:12:17,754 --> 00:12:19,695
speaking culture, which is literalism.

356
00:12:20,870 --> 00:12:23,509
And literalism, so very often when we've looked

357
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:25,929
at other cultures, religions, faith, legends,

358
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:28,649
we presumed these people

359
00:12:29,830 --> 00:12:32,309
are looking at everything literally, as opposed to

360
00:12:32,309 --> 00:12:33,210
mythic stories,

361
00:12:33,584 --> 00:12:35,264
which can be interpreted in many ways that

362
00:12:35,264 --> 00:12:37,345
kind of more of a William Blake approach

363
00:12:37,345 --> 00:12:39,504
to reality. So I think that, you know,

364
00:12:39,504 --> 00:12:41,584
look, but there's many different things, but yeah,

365
00:12:41,584 --> 00:12:43,424
I I and I think that is true

366
00:12:43,424 --> 00:12:46,019
actually that certainly science has in some ways,

367
00:12:46,980 --> 00:12:49,059
worn away some of those. But but like

368
00:12:49,059 --> 00:12:50,100
I say in the book, I think it's

369
00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:52,200
very important for people also to know that,

370
00:12:52,259 --> 00:12:53,940
you know, you can still believe in some

371
00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:54,840
form of God,

372
00:12:55,940 --> 00:12:59,144
and also approach science as, you know, there

373
00:12:59,144 --> 00:13:00,825
are scientists who do that and there are

374
00:13:00,825 --> 00:13:02,664
people I know who absolutely adore science who

375
00:13:02,664 --> 00:13:05,625
are bishops and deans and all manner of

376
00:13:05,625 --> 00:13:07,705
of things. The the one thing which becomes

377
00:13:07,705 --> 00:13:08,205
problematic

378
00:13:08,825 --> 00:13:11,384
is once it becomes a definite truth. So

379
00:13:11,384 --> 00:13:12,264
if you say my

380
00:13:12,825 --> 00:13:13,325
nothing

381
00:13:14,009 --> 00:13:15,929
can in any way damage my my definite

382
00:13:15,929 --> 00:13:16,750
truth, then

383
00:13:17,210 --> 00:13:19,049
science becomes quite a hard playing field. From

384
00:13:19,049 --> 00:13:21,610
a science communication point of view, definitely that

385
00:13:21,610 --> 00:13:24,190
communication of doubt, communication of the scientific

386
00:13:24,570 --> 00:13:25,950
way of doubting things

387
00:13:26,410 --> 00:13:28,330
is quite a tricky thing because as soon

388
00:13:28,330 --> 00:13:29,070
as, you know,

389
00:13:29,485 --> 00:13:30,285
people will

390
00:13:31,004 --> 00:13:33,665
nefarious people in the society will pounce on

391
00:13:33,884 --> 00:13:36,285
the doubt of climate science, for example, and

392
00:13:36,285 --> 00:13:38,205
say, look, you see, they don't they don't

393
00:13:38,205 --> 00:13:40,605
know. Well, that is exactly why we need

394
00:13:40,605 --> 00:13:43,660
to educate people, in critical thinking. We need

395
00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:45,519
to have far more critical thinking and

396
00:13:45,899 --> 00:13:48,559
perish the thought for some scientists who dislike

397
00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,740
philosophy. We need more philosophy. We need more

398
00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:52,240
understanding

399
00:13:52,860 --> 00:13:54,480
of the fact that certainty

400
00:13:55,365 --> 00:13:57,924
is actually very often something that leads to

401
00:13:57,924 --> 00:13:59,764
nowhere and that doubt does not mean that

402
00:13:59,764 --> 00:14:02,644
it is requires inaction. One can take action

403
00:14:02,644 --> 00:14:04,804
while at the same time holding your doubt

404
00:14:04,804 --> 00:14:06,165
in your hand and I think that's a

405
00:14:06,165 --> 00:14:07,945
really important thing to do because,

406
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:11,289
I totally agree with you this incredibly

407
00:14:11,669 --> 00:14:13,850
annoying thing that you see from these trite

408
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:16,090
hack journalists who are all over the place

409
00:14:16,230 --> 00:14:18,549
who have no understanding of science, but because

410
00:14:18,549 --> 00:14:19,850
maybe they've got a degree

411
00:14:20,165 --> 00:14:22,644
in English literature whatever it might be, they

412
00:14:22,644 --> 00:14:24,325
think well you see because actually I know

413
00:14:24,325 --> 00:14:26,404
about Beowulf, I don't see why I also

414
00:14:26,404 --> 00:14:28,085
don't know just as much about physics and

415
00:14:28,085 --> 00:14:30,404
everything else. There's a tremendous weirdly enough when

416
00:14:30,404 --> 00:14:32,085
people talk about the arrogance of science, I

417
00:14:32,085 --> 00:14:33,945
see an enormous amount of arrogance

418
00:14:34,470 --> 00:14:36,789
from people who have no scientific you know,

419
00:14:36,789 --> 00:14:39,190
we saw this during COVID where suddenly everyone

420
00:14:39,190 --> 00:14:40,490
was an expert on vaccines.

421
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:42,789
And, you know, it had only taken them

422
00:14:42,789 --> 00:14:44,389
half an hour as well. Imagine if they'd

423
00:14:44,389 --> 00:14:47,110
had it a whole hour. What incredible achievements

424
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:48,735
we'd have got from them. So yeah, I

425
00:14:48,735 --> 00:14:50,495
think we we we need to get it

426
00:14:50,495 --> 00:14:52,575
out there that this is what yeah. It's

427
00:14:52,575 --> 00:14:54,995
something talked about many times in many different,

428
00:14:55,615 --> 00:14:56,995
kind of shows is

429
00:14:57,455 --> 00:15:00,174
science is not about having the 100% right

430
00:15:00,174 --> 00:15:02,335
idea. It is about attempting to have the

431
00:15:02,335 --> 00:15:05,740
least wrong idea. The most useful idea for

432
00:15:05,740 --> 00:15:08,379
the time, but always being ready for that

433
00:15:08,379 --> 00:15:10,540
idea to change and move on. I think

434
00:15:10,540 --> 00:15:12,940
one thing that's changed a lot in my

435
00:15:12,940 --> 00:15:15,519
thinking over the last 16 17 years

436
00:15:15,980 --> 00:15:17,804
is finding a place

437
00:15:18,205 --> 00:15:19,985
for mystical belief

438
00:15:20,365 --> 00:15:22,605
and for the I mean, that's one of

439
00:15:22,605 --> 00:15:24,205
the reasons that 9 Lessors of Cowles is

440
00:15:24,205 --> 00:15:26,044
now called For Curious People. It was only

441
00:15:26,044 --> 00:15:27,804
ever called For Godless People because it came

442
00:15:27,804 --> 00:15:28,544
out of

443
00:15:28,924 --> 00:15:31,585
being really annoyed being on some terrible

444
00:15:31,964 --> 00:15:33,345
panel show on TV

445
00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:35,579
where there was, you know,

446
00:15:36,039 --> 00:15:39,399
a really horrible member. Like a really nasty

447
00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:39,899
Christian

448
00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,759
who I know the majority of Christians every

449
00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:45,100
time he was on television were furious because

450
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:47,820
the reason television put him on was because

451
00:15:47,959 --> 00:15:49,100
he was infuriating

452
00:15:49,815 --> 00:15:51,894
not because really he represented the majority of

453
00:15:51,894 --> 00:15:53,654
Christians in. And so he kept saying, you

454
00:15:53,654 --> 00:15:55,575
wanna ban Christmas? You wanna ban Christmas? And

455
00:15:55,575 --> 00:15:56,695
I kept trying to explain that to him,

456
00:15:56,695 --> 00:15:58,054
and that's where it came from. And then

457
00:15:58,054 --> 00:15:59,495
years later, I just thought, well, now I

458
00:15:59,495 --> 00:16:00,934
just want as many people as possible to

459
00:16:00,934 --> 00:16:02,695
enjoy these scientific ideas, so I don't want

460
00:16:02,695 --> 00:16:04,578
people to feel it's a closed shop. We

461
00:16:04,578 --> 00:16:07,129
need more and I think we're seeing it.

462
00:16:07,129 --> 00:16:09,680
We need more and more scientists to be

463
00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,231
a little bit like Alan Moore, you know

464
00:16:12,231 --> 00:16:14,781
the great Alan Moore v Vendetta watchmen. And

465
00:16:14,781 --> 00:16:17,975
Alan has a way of balancing scientific understanding

466
00:16:17,975 --> 00:16:19,894
which he has very deep scientific and he's

467
00:16:19,894 --> 00:16:21,195
quite remarkable mind

468
00:16:21,575 --> 00:16:23,654
but finding a place for the mystical as

469
00:16:23,654 --> 00:16:26,455
well. Also he has the best line. He's

470
00:16:26,455 --> 00:16:26,955
written

471
00:16:27,735 --> 00:16:29,654
a new short story collection includes a short

472
00:16:29,654 --> 00:16:31,309
story about the first femtosecond

473
00:16:31,769 --> 00:16:32,670
of the universe.

474
00:16:33,290 --> 00:16:34,889
And the opening line is, it was the

475
00:16:34,889 --> 00:16:36,410
best of times, it was the first of

476
00:16:36,410 --> 00:16:39,049
times, which is such a great opening line.

477
00:16:39,049 --> 00:16:40,970
You're gonna have that. And, yeah, and that's

478
00:16:40,970 --> 00:16:42,490
why I always liked having Alan on at

479
00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:45,084
9 lessons as well, because he brought something

480
00:16:45,304 --> 00:16:47,304
that, you know, for people was was always

481
00:16:47,304 --> 00:16:50,105
a surprise. And you've mentioned Brian Cox a

482
00:16:50,105 --> 00:16:51,084
a couple of times,

483
00:16:51,464 --> 00:16:53,964
and this is the Physics World Stories podcast.

484
00:16:54,184 --> 00:16:56,424
So this is a really stupid question. Is

485
00:16:56,424 --> 00:16:58,950
physics your favorite science? I don't know. I

486
00:16:58,950 --> 00:17:00,709
mean, there are times when it is. I

487
00:17:00,709 --> 00:17:02,149
mean, for a while, like a lot of

488
00:17:02,149 --> 00:17:04,569
us, I was really drawn towards quantum entanglement

489
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:06,250
and quantum quantum mechanics.

490
00:17:06,630 --> 00:17:08,710
And and now I kind of agree with

491
00:17:08,710 --> 00:17:10,470
some of like Helen Chirsky who gets a

492
00:17:10,470 --> 00:17:12,150
little bit annoyed about just how many books

493
00:17:12,150 --> 00:17:13,204
there are. I

494
00:17:13,664 --> 00:17:15,825
mean, there are certain books in that. Philip

495
00:17:15,825 --> 00:17:17,585
Ball is one of my favourite writers and

496
00:17:17,585 --> 00:17:18,964
Beyond Weird is is wonderful,

497
00:17:19,265 --> 00:17:21,765
but it's possibly biology because

498
00:17:22,224 --> 00:17:24,944
I like the messiness of it. I'm fascinated

499
00:17:24,944 --> 00:17:26,565
in neuroscience as well.

500
00:17:26,890 --> 00:17:28,750
So the activity of our brain,

501
00:17:29,529 --> 00:17:31,369
the structure of our brain, what we can

502
00:17:31,369 --> 00:17:33,529
understand from the structure, and what currently is

503
00:17:33,529 --> 00:17:35,630
elusive to us about nature of consciousness

504
00:17:36,009 --> 00:17:36,829
and imagination.

505
00:17:37,210 --> 00:17:38,990
I think I really enjoy that

506
00:17:39,529 --> 00:17:40,910
more than anything else.

507
00:17:41,565 --> 00:17:42,684
And I'm not saying that I have a

508
00:17:42,684 --> 00:17:44,684
deeper understanding that but it's somewhere where I

509
00:17:44,684 --> 00:17:47,024
like playing a great deal because again,

510
00:17:47,404 --> 00:17:48,845
you know, I try in that book in

511
00:17:48,845 --> 00:17:50,605
the book to to talk about the fact

512
00:17:50,605 --> 00:17:52,924
that once you realize about how your brain

513
00:17:52,924 --> 00:17:54,605
puts together the picture of the world that's

514
00:17:54,605 --> 00:17:57,039
another reason to get rid of certainty.

515
00:17:57,420 --> 00:17:59,259
Anyone who sits in a room and believes

516
00:17:59,259 --> 00:18:01,259
they have got a privileged position, which is

517
00:18:01,259 --> 00:18:04,380
allowing them to see the objective truth of

518
00:18:04,380 --> 00:18:07,099
every color, every corner, every bit of human

519
00:18:07,099 --> 00:18:07,599
behavior

520
00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:10,914
is, you know, they they they make a

521
00:18:10,914 --> 00:18:13,234
terrible misjudgment. The moment that you go, would

522
00:18:13,234 --> 00:18:14,595
you know what? I was in the same

523
00:18:14,595 --> 00:18:16,774
room as you, and I believe this happened,

524
00:18:17,075 --> 00:18:18,534
and you believe that happened.

525
00:18:18,835 --> 00:18:19,654
But, actually,

526
00:18:19,954 --> 00:18:21,654
probably something in the middle happened.

527
00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:24,630
And let's just you know that so many

528
00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:26,789
of the arguments that come from certainty of

529
00:18:26,789 --> 00:18:29,190
our experience and again once you loosen those

530
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:31,509
things I think you get a far more

531
00:18:31,509 --> 00:18:34,244
enigmatic picture of the world and actually a

532
00:18:34,244 --> 00:18:36,644
far more useful picture of the world in

533
00:18:36,644 --> 00:18:38,744
terms of social engagement. So you mentioned

534
00:18:39,125 --> 00:18:39,865
a few

535
00:18:40,244 --> 00:18:42,805
physics books, popular science books, but if you

536
00:18:42,805 --> 00:18:43,704
were gonna recommend

537
00:18:44,884 --> 00:18:47,065
3 for people to pick up this

538
00:18:47,730 --> 00:18:50,049
December, what would they be? Oh, that's very

539
00:18:50,049 --> 00:18:51,890
hard. I mean, I always actually say The

540
00:18:51,890 --> 00:18:54,210
Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, his last

541
00:18:54,210 --> 00:18:56,369
full book, because I think it's a really

542
00:18:56,369 --> 00:18:58,769
good way in and it does have ideas

543
00:18:58,769 --> 00:18:59,829
of critical thinking,

544
00:19:00,144 --> 00:19:01,924
and I don't think it has a cynicism

545
00:19:01,984 --> 00:19:03,664
to it. I think it has a great

546
00:19:03,664 --> 00:19:05,424
warmth even when it's dealing with the kind

547
00:19:05,424 --> 00:19:07,045
of some of the more mystical ideas.

548
00:19:08,464 --> 00:19:10,785
I I really like Jana Levin's How the

549
00:19:10,785 --> 00:19:12,000
Universe Got Its Spots

550
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,380
because I think it's an interesting look about

551
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,700
the nature and understanding of cosmology

552
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,160
with a very personal story sewn through it

553
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,319
of the difficulties that she was actually having

554
00:19:24,319 --> 00:19:26,079
as a human being living in a pretty

555
00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:26,924
tatty flat

556
00:19:28,125 --> 00:19:30,045
in Brighton with her partner. I think I

557
00:19:30,045 --> 00:19:31,345
would pick that one.

558
00:19:33,485 --> 00:19:35,404
Now the third one because I've got none

559
00:19:35,404 --> 00:19:37,325
no more after this and that's then very,

560
00:19:37,325 --> 00:19:39,005
very unfair. Do you know what I am

561
00:19:39,005 --> 00:19:40,705
gonna go for another classic

562
00:19:41,579 --> 00:19:43,579
just because I know people have found this

563
00:19:43,579 --> 00:19:45,039
really useful which is reading,

564
00:19:46,059 --> 00:19:47,500
What Do You Care What Other People Think

565
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:48,480
by Richard Feynman.

566
00:19:48,859 --> 00:19:50,940
Because again, I think it's a beautiful series.

567
00:19:50,940 --> 00:19:52,539
I mean what I'm really trying to pick

568
00:19:52,539 --> 00:19:54,059
here is 3 which I think have a

569
00:19:54,059 --> 00:19:55,660
lot of humanity in them because I think

570
00:19:55,660 --> 00:19:58,734
that's the important thing first of all before

571
00:19:58,875 --> 00:20:00,714
you deal with the big book, before you

572
00:20:00,714 --> 00:20:02,234
go to the book that Jeff and Brian

573
00:20:02,234 --> 00:20:03,835
have written about black holes or any of

574
00:20:03,835 --> 00:20:05,835
those things, I think you need a lot

575
00:20:05,835 --> 00:20:08,329
of a human story in there. And, you

576
00:20:08,329 --> 00:20:10,170
know, What Do You Care What Other People

577
00:20:10,170 --> 00:20:13,210
Think has the transcription of, some of Richard

578
00:20:13,210 --> 00:20:15,529
Fineman's Pleasure of Finding Things Out, which is

579
00:20:15,529 --> 00:20:17,369
of course a great ultimate kind of now

580
00:20:17,369 --> 00:20:19,609
essay on what it is, what the excitement

581
00:20:19,609 --> 00:20:21,930
of exploring ideas. It also has the story

582
00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:23,470
of the Challenger Space Shuttle

583
00:20:23,914 --> 00:20:26,815
and what happens when some you know, again,

584
00:20:27,034 --> 00:20:29,194
it was the business pressures, it was the

585
00:20:29,194 --> 00:20:31,835
money and financial pressures of NASA that is

586
00:20:31,835 --> 00:20:34,075
one of the reasons that the Challenger Space

587
00:20:34,075 --> 00:20:34,575
Shuttle,

588
00:20:35,515 --> 00:20:38,255
you know, that devastating thing occurred.

589
00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:40,759
And then it has the story also of

590
00:20:40,759 --> 00:20:41,420
his relationship

591
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,259
with his first wife,

592
00:20:44,599 --> 00:20:46,059
which I think is such

593
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:47,660
an incredible

594
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:50,039
the bit at the end where it talks

595
00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:50,859
about him

596
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,259
sitting with her, Arlene,

597
00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:55,234
as she was dying

598
00:20:56,174 --> 00:20:58,974
and his scientific mind thinking about what was

599
00:20:58,974 --> 00:21:01,714
going on to her body and her mind

600
00:21:02,815 --> 00:21:04,414
but at the same time that he was

601
00:21:04,414 --> 00:21:06,355
not detached from the emotional reality

602
00:21:07,295 --> 00:21:10,240
I think is an incredible kind of a

603
00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:10,980
a superposition

604
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,440
in some ways of the possibility of the

605
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,460
the what a human mind can do

606
00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:18,240
in the most devastating of situations. So you

607
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:20,660
are in Singapore. Why are you in Singapore?

608
00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:22,799
I am it's well, I've got,

609
00:21:23,404 --> 00:21:26,044
Brian, it's the end of this year's Horizons

610
00:21:26,044 --> 00:21:28,125
live tool. We're nearly done. So we we

611
00:21:28,125 --> 00:21:29,404
should have all done this in one fell

612
00:21:29,404 --> 00:21:31,404
swoop, but because of COVID rather than so

613
00:21:31,404 --> 00:21:33,085
we did Australia and we came back 3

614
00:21:33,085 --> 00:21:34,605
weeks ago, and now we're in Singapore and

615
00:21:34,605 --> 00:21:35,950
we're about to go to New Zealand. And

616
00:21:35,950 --> 00:21:37,630
we've looked at the schedule and it will

617
00:21:37,630 --> 00:21:40,350
destroy us for Christmas. That is most do

618
00:21:40,350 --> 00:21:41,330
you know how how

619
00:21:41,789 --> 00:21:43,470
how Santa does it I don't know because

620
00:21:43,470 --> 00:21:44,990
we've only got 5 stops and I think

621
00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:46,450
we're gonna just be, you know,

622
00:21:46,830 --> 00:21:47,330
reasonably

623
00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:49,070
broken by the end of it. But, yes,

624
00:21:49,070 --> 00:21:50,910
we're finishing the Horizons live tour and then

625
00:21:50,910 --> 00:21:52,015
we do a little bit,

626
00:21:52,414 --> 00:21:54,575
in Europe in March. We go around a

627
00:21:54,575 --> 00:21:56,255
few places. I think we're in Brussels and

628
00:21:56,255 --> 00:21:57,934
I think we go to Berlin and then

629
00:21:57,934 --> 00:22:00,575
around Scandinavia. But there's also 9 Carols and

630
00:22:00,575 --> 00:22:03,775
Lessons for Curious People. Yeah. One day after

631
00:22:03,775 --> 00:22:06,839
I take the 30 hour flights to get

632
00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:08,019
back from New Zealand,

633
00:22:08,559 --> 00:22:08,880
I,

634
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,759
then do the 9 lessons and carols for

635
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,160
curious people at King's Place and then do

636
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,460
2 more the next day,

637
00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:19,039
which is very ill thought out. But that's

638
00:22:19,039 --> 00:22:21,440
how I've lived for the whole life. If

639
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,875
I hadn't if I didn't constantly do things

640
00:22:23,875 --> 00:22:25,875
that were ill thought out I would have

641
00:22:25,875 --> 00:22:26,775
no excitement.

642
00:22:27,715 --> 00:22:29,234
If people are listening to this and they

643
00:22:29,234 --> 00:22:31,075
want to come along to 9 carols what

644
00:22:31,075 --> 00:22:32,755
can they expect to see this year? A

645
00:22:32,755 --> 00:22:35,875
show that has really rapidly changed in the

646
00:22:35,875 --> 00:22:37,849
previous six hours due to a train strike

647
00:22:37,849 --> 00:22:39,369
and the number of people who are unable

648
00:22:39,369 --> 00:22:40,109
to come in.

649
00:22:40,970 --> 00:22:42,569
So at the moment and I should say,

650
00:22:42,569 --> 00:22:43,929
by the way, that I do support that

651
00:22:43,929 --> 00:22:45,609
train strike. It might be making our life

652
00:22:45,609 --> 00:22:48,250
more difficult, but I also entirely understand why

653
00:22:48,250 --> 00:22:50,125
it is, it is necessary.

654
00:22:50,825 --> 00:22:52,504
But it's so so there will be that

655
00:22:52,585 --> 00:22:53,704
normally, what we have is we have a

656
00:22:53,704 --> 00:22:55,144
bunch of experiments, but I don't think we

657
00:22:55,144 --> 00:22:57,144
have any chemists this year because last year,

658
00:22:57,144 --> 00:22:58,505
one of the chemists set fire to the

659
00:22:58,505 --> 00:23:00,744
theater. I mean, they've been approaching that level

660
00:23:00,744 --> 00:23:03,109
of, accident for some time just with minor

661
00:23:03,109 --> 00:23:05,029
spillages of some furoic acid, but then it

662
00:23:05,029 --> 00:23:06,630
went that extra kind of level. There will

663
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:08,710
be chemistry though, and we've got a lot

664
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:10,250
of musicians, a lot of comedians,

665
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:13,349
and we got people like Beck Hill and,

666
00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:14,744
hopefully, we've got

667
00:23:15,224 --> 00:23:17,805
Grace Petrie joining us as well. And,

668
00:23:18,184 --> 00:23:20,424
we yeah. It's it's just this kind of

669
00:23:20,505 --> 00:23:22,345
the reason I'm not mentioning too many names

670
00:23:22,345 --> 00:23:24,265
is because I really don't know who's gonna

671
00:23:24,265 --> 00:23:25,724
be well, I mean, hopefully,

672
00:23:26,265 --> 00:23:28,424
it won't require me to fill for 4

673
00:23:28,424 --> 00:23:30,525
hours because I really won't have the energy.

674
00:23:30,585 --> 00:23:32,069
I mean, I'm thinking of just sitting in

675
00:23:32,069 --> 00:23:34,230
a rocking chair like some kind of Christmas

676
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:35,369
special from 1974,

677
00:23:36,150 --> 00:23:37,849
you know, in a nice bit of knitwear.

678
00:23:38,230 --> 00:23:39,930
Please welcome one of my

679
00:23:40,710 --> 00:23:42,410
favorite theoretical physicists.

680
00:23:43,445 --> 00:23:44,805
But I mean the good thing is we

681
00:23:44,805 --> 00:23:46,884
will probably have a lot of UCL scientists.

682
00:23:46,884 --> 00:23:49,705
Helen Chirsk is ready. John Butterworth is ready.

683
00:23:49,845 --> 00:23:53,065
Anyone who is within 5 miles, I think,

684
00:23:53,525 --> 00:23:55,144
of any musician, comedian,

685
00:23:56,565 --> 00:23:57,065
chemist,

686
00:23:57,470 --> 00:23:58,289
or neuroscientist,

687
00:23:59,390 --> 00:24:01,250
physiologist, whatever it might be,

688
00:24:01,789 --> 00:24:03,549
they may well get called up. There's a

689
00:24:03,549 --> 00:24:04,049
review

690
00:24:04,509 --> 00:24:06,910
of Robin Ince's book, The Importance of Being

691
00:24:06,910 --> 00:24:09,650
Interested on the Physics World website, physicsworld

692
00:24:10,024 --> 00:24:12,125
com, where you can also find reviews

693
00:24:12,505 --> 00:24:14,764
of all the books that Tushnet and Matin

694
00:24:14,825 --> 00:24:17,464
mentioned earlier. Now it occurs to me that

695
00:24:17,464 --> 00:24:19,464
some of you might not have had the

696
00:24:19,464 --> 00:24:22,105
chance to experience one of Robin's live shows.

697
00:24:22,105 --> 00:24:24,250
So here's a little snippet of one that

698
00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:26,669
I recorded earlier this year in Bristol.

699
00:24:27,049 --> 00:24:29,289
Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, which

700
00:24:29,289 --> 00:24:31,549
I read as this kind of absurd

701
00:24:31,849 --> 00:24:33,529
that I I had no idea when I

702
00:24:33,529 --> 00:24:35,690
first read it that some of the ideas

703
00:24:35,690 --> 00:24:37,609
he was talking about were real physics because

704
00:24:37,609 --> 00:24:39,375
they were so crazy. The kind of, you

705
00:24:39,375 --> 00:24:41,934
know, probability drives and all of these things

706
00:24:41,934 --> 00:24:43,555
just seemed like really brilliant

707
00:24:43,855 --> 00:24:44,355
imagination

708
00:24:44,735 --> 00:24:45,555
of an author.

709
00:24:45,855 --> 00:24:47,535
And then a few years later, he's got

710
00:24:47,535 --> 00:24:49,615
to go, oh, okay. So in quantum mechanics,

711
00:24:49,615 --> 00:24:51,535
this was, oh, oh, okay. And in this

712
00:24:51,535 --> 00:24:53,615
form of cosmology, oh, and this, you know,

713
00:24:53,615 --> 00:24:55,830
that is in fact, the guy who edited

714
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:56,410
the book,

715
00:24:56,950 --> 00:24:58,090
there were 3 eventually.

716
00:24:59,509 --> 00:25:01,830
Only the last was strong enough. And,

717
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:02,869
but,

718
00:25:03,750 --> 00:25:05,349
because he said he didn't rise at the

719
00:25:05,349 --> 00:25:07,285
restaurant and the end of the universe is

720
00:25:07,285 --> 00:25:09,404
not a kind of geographical position, but it's

721
00:25:09,404 --> 00:25:10,565
at the end of the universe. That it's

722
00:25:10,565 --> 00:25:12,005
the end of the universe. This is when

723
00:25:12,005 --> 00:25:13,845
the universe ends. So that is interesting to

724
00:25:13,845 --> 00:25:15,204
me that even somebody who works in books,

725
00:25:15,204 --> 00:25:16,884
it simply didn't know the meaning of that

726
00:25:16,884 --> 00:25:18,805
title. You can hear the rest of Robin's

727
00:25:18,805 --> 00:25:21,204
performance there at Bookhouse in Bristol on my

728
00:25:21,204 --> 00:25:23,450
other podcast, The Cosmic Shed, which you can

729
00:25:23,450 --> 00:25:24,430
find at thecosmicshed.com.

730
00:25:30,250 --> 00:25:32,009
Thank you very much to Robin Ince for

731
00:25:32,009 --> 00:25:33,930
joining me for this episode of the Physics

732
00:25:33,930 --> 00:25:36,555
World stories podcast, and I hope that's given

733
00:25:36,555 --> 00:25:38,095
you, along with Tushnet

734
00:25:38,394 --> 00:25:41,674
and Matin's suggestions earlier, some ideas for some

735
00:25:41,674 --> 00:25:43,934
books maybe for yourself or for a present

736
00:25:44,394 --> 00:25:45,215
this December

737
00:25:45,835 --> 00:25:48,315
or Christmas or holiday season, whatever you want

738
00:25:48,315 --> 00:25:49,950
to call it. But just before I leave

739
00:25:49,950 --> 00:25:52,450
you, I will just add one more recommendation,

740
00:25:52,990 --> 00:25:53,490
which

741
00:25:53,869 --> 00:25:54,929
is Apollo remastered

742
00:25:55,710 --> 00:25:56,849
by Andy Saunders.

743
00:25:57,630 --> 00:25:59,470
It's a book that I've reviewed, which will

744
00:25:59,470 --> 00:26:01,409
appear on the physics world website

745
00:26:01,710 --> 00:26:05,134
in January, physics world dot com. But if

746
00:26:05,134 --> 00:26:07,054
you are in a fun of Apollo, even

747
00:26:07,054 --> 00:26:09,315
if you've got a lot of Apollo books,

748
00:26:09,615 --> 00:26:10,754
I highly recommend

749
00:26:11,294 --> 00:26:13,534
having a look at the Andy Saunders book,

750
00:26:13,534 --> 00:26:14,514
Apollo remastered.

751
00:26:14,894 --> 00:26:17,234
And we'll be back next year in January

752
00:26:17,294 --> 00:26:19,375
when we'll be exploring the return to the

753
00:26:19,375 --> 00:26:22,089
moon and the challenges of living in space

754
00:26:22,089 --> 00:26:23,390
for prolonged periods.

755
00:26:23,769 --> 00:26:25,549
And thank you very much for listening.

756
00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:31,630
Physics world.