Episode 60: This Sport is for Everyone: LGBTQ+ Inclusion in Volleyball featuring Brooke Rundle and Marie Zidek

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hello and welcome to the USA volleyball show  the official podcast of USA volleyball please leave a message after the beat oh that was bad yep I lost my voice yesterday and that was a big crack but yes episode number 60 we  are here at the big six zero here in March last episode of the month of March and it's  also women's History Month dig six zero that's crazy yeah it sounds like you did uh did a lot of  coaching this week and lost your voice a little bit a lot of coaching yelling you know not no  yelling yelling but you know it's the loud house yeah those convention centers you have very loud  um I uh I was at sunshine uh on the weekend sunshine in Orlando and uh I did a few  interviews throughout the weekend and I I realize uh that I just was yelling into the  mic because it was so the whole time you only better place it yeah no didn't even notice but  yeah it was a great uh great weekend at sunshine a lot of great competition great clubs out there  um some awesome moments I was able to to see and uh found out some interesting things uh from from  the players uh including favorite tournament snacks what is the ham what is that on Earth  some of the big ones were acai bowls and I'm most convinced most convention centers have a little  acai bowls that's pretty that's a pretty hefty snack yeah that's a filling snack got a circle  back on it uh goldfish was another popular oh sir Roots like grapes I think was a was a popular one  um so yeah that was that was a lot of fun I think cheese like cheese was really popular  too which was fun which was funny yeah a little string cheese that's that's one girl one Club  out like a tackle box it was literally like a fishing tackle box really just filled with like  different snacks and like all the dividers which was very smart I thought that's cool  you know what I also see like uh some clubs do like you know when teams are on the sideline  and uh you know it's time for them to get on the court and they have uh they're just like  40 Hydro flasks all over the place yeah a ball goes there and it just it looks like  a bowling ballet well some some clubs are bringing like those like the you know the  crates kind of like a milk crate with like the whole and all yeah and put them all in there I love that that's very smart yeah I think that's a hilarious sight when the when the  ball just knocks over all the uh Hydro Flask it's just yeah I'm like ah clean it up but I did see  your Hawaiian shirt what did you think of that theme yeah that was a lot of fun actually uh I  was pleasantly surprised with how many athletes clubs coaches parents uh and even officials got  into the the Hawaiian shirt Spirit Hawaiian shirt day spirit and uh a lot of officials were up on  the stand wearing Hawaiian shirts or lays that was so hot yeah yeah a lot of clubs uh actually one uh  group of parents one group of dads um had Hawaiian shirts with their daughter's faces on like spread  out really which was super cool so embarrassing I got a good photo of it on on the USA volleyball  Instagram there so you can check that out you can but yeah it's good it's good to notice that teams  are just all into the theme days the Hawaiian shirt days tropical shirt days there may be may  not be a mustache state that opens 2023. we'll see we'll see what I can pull off here but uh there's  that and then you know at the pink shirt days or purple for you know certain awareness months and  days and such like that too they're all into and I love it so we may need to incorporate that a  lot more into you know these I think yeah I think uh events team should definitely keep continuing  to do that that's I I was pleasantly surprised with how many uh many people just got into it  it was awesome good things like you're some good competition good event good weather in Orlando  yeah great weather all right for me when I had traveled to Florida I feel like it's always just a  torrential downpour whenever I go there but it was great yeah I still have PTSD from last year from  last year we had like I think close to either 10 or over 10 rain delays and how do you have a rain  delay inside at an indoor facility when there's a lot of rain outside and you have the rain delay  inside yeah not my best moment not my favorite moment most memorable for sure it's in the past  it's in the past and we had a great sunshine this year and that's what we can remember now  well let's uh let's continue on uh with this episode great to catch up with you as well it's  it's been a while we're in the heat of it right now uh travel season right now eventually you  see the thick of it [Laughter] that was a great uh but yeah in case you missed it February was region  Commissioners month we had three different USA volleyball Regional Commissioners uh starting with  Cody March from seba that's Columbia Empire region Jen armson Dyer from Badger region and this most  recent episode our most recent episode with Steve meet from Gateway region be sure to check out all  those episodes as we dive into their roles as usab Commissioners Regional Commissioners uh and talk  about what they're doing to help grow the game and so much more from them more info on for more info  on USB regions you can and how you can become a member visit usabollyball.org and check out  those website or check out those episodes I should say on your favorite podcast platform or you can  watch them on the USA volleyball YouTube channel as well let's move on to news with Hughes the 2023  USA volleyball Beach National Championship will return to Fort Lauderdale Florida on July 18th  through the 23rd registration is now open on usav bracketpal.com all questions can be directed to  Beach events at usav.org are you interested in the men's college volleyball because I know I ain't  look uh check out our website for weekly roundups to stay up to date on results rankings and key  matchups and much much more more on these and all other news items at always usavolleyball.org now on to Today's Show back in December we interviewed several guests live from the  2022 ABCA Convention of those awesome guests that we interviewed two of them uh will be  featured in this episode with Brook Rundle uh the quality coaching Alliance and Marie zydeck  from DePaul University she's the head coach there they talk about their backgrounds in  volleyball their involvement and the equality coaching Alliance the work they're doing to  support the lgbtq plus community and much much more let's get to it here's Brooke and Marie Brooke Marie thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us uh Brooke Marie you're  both from the quality coaching Alliance but would love to know a little bit more about yourselves  your background so we'll start with Brooke can you tell us a little bit about yourself yeah  thanks for having me here today my name is Brooke Rundle I just see they pronouns and I'm getting my  doctorate in sport performance psychology and I work in clinical mental health and I played  volleyball at UC Santa Barbara back in the day was an All-American and played professionally  over in Europe for a few years and now I'm working with the sports equality Foundation  um teaching about lgbtq inclusion all right uh my name is Marie zydick I'm the current head coach  at DePaul University born and raised in Chicago I had a chance to to work at San Diego a while and  I have competed in the gym that Brooke played in I always joke though that my mom was an All-American  I'm my track I can be an All-American drill facilitator my mom was a far better volleyball  player than me but um you know I grew up she was a she's been a coach for nearly 40 years and I  had a chance to grow up in a house that just loved the game loved Sports and the sport of  volleyball is pretty much taken me all over the world but I do have a sport physio background  so that's where you know I compliment the the love for volleyball um been in coaching now for  15 years the dark side I guess the dark side's admin but uh administrative no I'm just joking  um but uh you know I've been coaching now for 15 years and what I have continued to realize  is they're they're really I do have a passion for for helping others through using the sport  of volleyball and it's really a cool time in 2022 that we can start talking about a lot of different  identities and and how we can continue to bring those different identities into the sporting  space and that's something that we try to do and and I try to do and I'm just happy to be here  yeah I'm excited to talk about that with you here and then about your roles too  here at the ABCA convention but really quick I want to hear about that hook that you had  uh and volleyball uh what was that hook for you in volleyball you know was it walking into your  mom's gym when you were younger but what what got you in the game wow we're going way back yeah yeah  okay uh well I I volleyball has been in my life as long as I can remember my my dad actually played  on the Olympic team in 19. oh awesome awesome back in Mexico City yeah um and my mom played  volleyball UCLA and then transferred to UCSB so both of my parents played growing up and  um I just I don't know I think I just always had a volleyball around just always in the family in the  Jeep it was in the jeans yeah that's awesome for me you know I relate to life but through movement  um and I just love moving I love playing sports and volleyball obviously in growing up when you  do walk into a gym and you get a chance to see you know you you probably watched your father  and you get a chance to see people and your mom doing it at a really high level you want to do  it too right and and so I was a little girl in diapers running around the gym begging people to  Pepper with me you know at three years old and uh and just floater spiking the crap out of balls at  people because I was Tiny but um I just think it was the hook of the movement and the Synergy and  the connectedness um as it relates to being a part of a great team sport and I just think volleyball  has that um I'm undersized um I was a Setter and a lib when a lib became a position you know  um but I just I love serving uh people I love making people um you know feel more comfortable  with themselves and and uh that that's what hooked me was the team aspect and the physical aspect of  all always the off ball and on ball it's just a very synergistic Sport and the rhythm of it  you know still to this day it's why I still coach it's it's the most peace I feel in my  life is when I'm in a volleyball gym and I know that's odd to say when it's 13 all in the fifth  set but it just makes me feel like the most complete version of myself I love that quote so and also um correct me if I'm wrong here but this is the first ECA panel uh first live  UCA panel at the avca convention it's it's the first live one yeah we've done remotely the last  two years and I don't know of any conversation around lgbtq inclusion that has happened before  that may have happened behind closed doors I mean as Marie and I were preparing for this  we talked about how sort of growing up it was always a conversation that people didn't want  to talk about people told us to you know not not share our identity keep that just sort of  out of sight out of mind so to be able to have this space now where we're actually having an  opportunity to talk about it celebrate Role Models um it's it it is forward progress and  and you know it's very exciting to be a part of full progress you know obviously good progress  and you know we also want to keep to keep in light keep in light and keep in mind that you  know there's a long road ahead of us and there's a long a lot more that needs to happen here so  what are some of those goals and uh you know they can be short-term long term or you know just you  know convention-based here that you're looking to get out of you know being here for these live  sessions being here to be able to you know have these conversations yeah um with a lot of goals  you know I think I think one of the goals is to just first of all just create awareness  um that you know if you identify as lgbtq you're a coach you're a player You're Not Alone  um there's a group of us a sports equality Foundation is a network a social network  providing education empowerment opportunities to support each other so you don't you don't  have to navigate this space alone there's also to help with allyship we want to promote and educate  coach lgbtq inclusion at the college level at the club level  International level everywhere so that lgbtq identifying people athletes feel comfortable  playing volleyball and bringing their whole self to the volleyball court they don't have  to show up and be part of their identity behind or stay in the closet and so just promoting that  education and awareness to make the sport safer for the lgbtq community as you have talked with  each other about preparing for the presentation that you're giving and correct me if I'm wrong  but winning the lgbtq Plus game in volleyball is that correct yeah that's right awesome uh as you  guys are preparing for that what are the like kind of the talking points or whether those discussions  between yourselves and what you want to get out of that what's the focus of that presentation  yeah well I think when when Brooke first reached out and um also Kirk walker uh reached out as well  um I think it's kind of two-pronged I think Brooke's done a phenomenal job of setting up  the structure in the space um what I hope to bring to the panel today is uh shared  stories you know I think building a collective narrative so people know that they're they're  not alone and the easiest way to feel that is to hear someone else say something and be able  to identify with that statement and say wow okay I have felt like that too okay you know  um I I have found extreme comfort in knowing that and um also I think it's about you know  when we talk about creating spaces it's not only on coaches it's also on administrators and  athletic departments and universities as a whole I work in higher education so I can really only  speak to that population but what are we doing collectively you know within the whole ecosystem  of Collegiate Athletics and within University Systems and and how can we continue to drive  those relationships forward in a constructive manner um and so for me it's it's really about  sharing strategies and ways if people are running into obstacles of how to continue hat to have  bipartisanship in this process and I know that's a usually a political term but it's it can be used  in a lot of different ways we need to find ways to communicate in a world where communication  seemingly is becoming more extreme on both ends so it's just continuing to find common ground and  and not only create space for for the coaches but really we have to start bringing in people  who create who create those structures for us to function in those spaces and that's been a big  focus of mine the past couple years in addition to making sure that my own space continues to be  truly inclusive with language and how we you know just how we structure every activity we do and  and it's not going to be perfect but we also set that expectation that it an opportunity if you do  make a mistake is an opportunity for growth and I think that needs to continue to be the focus it's  not a you know you have to come over here or else I think there's just there needs to be continued  collaboration and continued bipartisanship throughout the whole ecosystem at every level  so at the at the club slash you know junior level to be more specific to um uh just for um just for  reference to I I do a lot of event managing on you know our indoor event side you know from Salt Lake  City Showdown Sunshine classic qualifier I also help run our open national championships here  too on the adult side of things too but um uh you know when having these conversations and you know  just trying to you know create that inclusive environment trying to create that safe space for  uh you know for athletes here um when when someone asks why should I take these steps what are some  what what are some of the reasons behind that what what what is the best way to uh you know formulate  a response there yeah I think you know especially when we're talking about at the club level um I  get that question a lot you know why should we do it and this the thinking behind that question is  oftentimes um and we don't have anyone in our in our team or club that identifies as lgbtq and my  response is always like how do you know that you know is your club or is your program a safe space  for them to come out because if if you don't have anyone that is out in your space statistically  then we're looking at around anywhere from around five percent LGBT people identifies  lgbtq so statistically that's probably not true and what's probably more likely to be true is that  the people that do identify as lgbtq in your space don't feel safe and comfortable coming out and so  that's where we need to back up and really start there that have that conversation around how do  we make this a safe place for people because right now in our country we're in the middle of a mental  Mental Health crisis and when we have such high suicide rates among the lgbtq youth  um I I'm not going to quote a number because it's always changing um but the reality is is  that lgbtq athletes are twice as likely to drop out of sports more than than athletes  that don't identify as lgbtq and they're also more susceptible to to Mental Health crisis and  so if you really care about your athletes if you really care about the athlete or the coach because  this is a conversation about coaches too in front of you then that is your answer that is the why  um we need to Center our athletes and our programs and Center our coaches it's really a question of  humanity can we honor the person in front of us and respect their identity and and acknowledge  their identity and create a safe space to support them so that they can Thrive and participate in  the program um so I I think that's you know that's the why for that I see for me and may  be different for others yeah I think you know it's um it's interesting Mo I mean I I can say  most the most coaches that I've talked to here at this convention are in it for the student athletes  you know that's why we coach you know very few of us make millions and millions of dollars um 15 houses you know and um and I wish I did you know but I don't you know most of us get into  coaching and or teaching to serve our youth or to serve people and with that is called the burden of  leadership you have a burden of leadership and the burden of responsibility is to come into a  space educated um and able to communicate with people where they are and that means you have to  have trauma-informed training you know I've gone through so many trauma-informed coaching strategy  trainings I've gone through you know student uh Child Development you know where where is this  person at you know relative to their behavioral development where should they be relative to this  age or is their behavior that's sticking out that maybe is a red flag that I need to elevate to a  professional because you're in there you are the you are their caretaker when they're in your space  they are your responsibility and whether you're the most influential person in their life or not  when they're with you in that space it is your responsibility to care for them as the entire  human being that they are you don't get to choose to just see them as an athlete because that's what  you signed up for as a coach and so I just think it comes down to a simple acknowledgment and now  I'm getting a little competitive a little edgy in my voice and I understand that but I really  feel passionate that when when children are in your care you assume that burden of liability  and responsibility so you better be prepared to interact with them in a way that respects the  Dignity of who they are and understand that we're not finished products and you have a certain level  of responsibility to how you communicate with them and how you continue to allow them to feel  comfortable in that space so it has very little to do with what you believe or don't believe I I  think and this is my opinion it has very little to do what you believe what you don't believe  what your political affiliation is and it has everything to do with the responsibility of what  you signed up for as a coach and talking about leadership and that responsibility and like you  mentioned as a coach as an educator that's why you got into it is to serve the youth and and  make that generation better that next Generation better what are some ways that you know if they're  called a club directors listening a coach is listening a teacher's listening what are some  ways they can create that inclusive environment and that safe space like you were talking about  sure I'll start with some ideas on the club level um if I'm an lgbtq athlete the first  thing I wanted when I'm looking for a club to play for I want to know what how what is their  policy on lgbtq inclusion and and is this a safe place for me to play so the first the  first is just start with your website throw up a rainbow flag maybe an inclusion statement maybe  a fan code of conduct for the for your gym those should exist anyways that that promotes  inclusion and protects all athletes on the basis of sexual orientation gender race everything in  your space that is your responsibility that's going to be an indicator to me as an athlete  that and and a parent that that is a safe or that at least they're aware and starting to take steps  um and then back that up right so what what actionable strategies um celebrate the identities  of lgbtq players and coaches if you are if you're not aware of what go to outsports outsports it  promotes lgbtq athletes and coaches there's a lot of volleyball players on that site um it's  great to read about you know if you have an lgbtq coach within your within your club or your program  don't ask them to hide their identity normalize it it doesn't have to be a huge conversation  we're just asking for the same respect that you would conversations that you would have  about any other relationship so inviting them to bring their partner to the banquet or to the  tournament you know and not and not hiding that person so it's really just about normalizing the  identities creating space celebrating inclusion and then if if you don't know what to do or you  need help navigating this reach out I mean we are in a network of coaches of educators of advocates  um be happy to provide advice share information come talk to your club we do speaking and advocacy  we've spoken with athletic departments and clubs about how to create a safer place for your program  so that that is also available too but I think again it just goes back to like celebrating  identities and protecting that space so and that's easy that doesn't require any more time what I  hear a lot um is that hey I'm I'm really time crunched I have to get through these trainings  and then I have to plan practice and a lot of these coaches are have other jobs and they have  families and they have other obligations maybe they're caring for sick family members for example  um so you have to come up with a way that respects their time and also creates the space and in the  examples that Brooke mentioned doesn't I mean hanging up a rainbow flag here Brazil it takes  10 minutes um so there are ways that there's low hanging fruit as I like to say and then I do think  you know with with I know every Club director out there has start of the Year meetings and they have  coaching handbooks and coaching philosophies um and they they have usually it's a packet of papers  that goes out as well to parents and adding in you know something like this because they already have  everything else you know how we're going to handle me dues how we're going to handle if you're you  know child you know whatever you know can't play anymore is injured how are we going to handle that  you know they're they're already they've already thought through all these different scenarios  um so adding that would be extremely helpful um for parents and um and then educating your  coaches again it comes back to the burden of leadership and it needs to be part of  we get so much training on how to plan practice you know and and how to and that's needed of  course but this needs to be built in as well you know how to speak with somebody you know who may  be trying to have a difficult conversation with you communication skills you know trauma-informed  coaching uh is there's plenty of trainings out there for for trauma-informed coaching and and for  education in those Realms that can make you better prepared for those situations because  you know to everyone listening it's not if it's when you know you are going to have an athlete  I would say you coach long enough you go through every scenario the highs the lows on the court the  highs the lows off the court you go through every scenario um and you have to continue to prepare  yourself emotionally and mentally to handle these very delicate situations because 10 minutes could  affect that the rest of that kid's life how you handle these moments and it's not always  the best moments the best moments are easy to handle it's it's the hard really hard moments  um and nobody's great at that because I'm human everyone's human everyone has emotions and  everyone has different ways of communication and if you're not constantly preparing I'm constantly  preparing and I'm 38 and I I have been constantly preparing but I always encounter situations where  I'm like wow I I really need to prepare for that you know um so I think just having a thirst to  continue to prepare yourself because again it's it's human being a human being in those situations  is there a large variance or difference in the level of volleyball um that these steps are  applied to or maybe kind of tweaked or adjusted based on the approach like on the Collision  level or in the club level are we talking high school here does that approach change at all um I don't think the response changes in terms of you have an lgbtq player come out to you for  the first time the posture is is that that I want to encourage is just is just acceptance  and love right and celebration of that identity I don't think that posture changes the the pressures  around like public that that change I think it gets harder and harder to come out publicly the  more the spotlight is on an athlete or a coach um and so with that you know it it can it can  become harder for folks in terms of what you can do to promote inclusion might also change so  some colleges have started you know at the pro level in other sports we see like Pride events  right um like a baseball game or the Dodgers or things like that are going to have a pride event  um I haven't seen that yet in in volleyball for sure like I'm sorry at the at the pro level but in  the college level we do are seeing college teams have like a pride night at their at their game and  and there's some there's a lot of different things you can do you can promote it um it's a great way  to promote inclusion um it's also a great way to um you know celebrate other identities and  you can as a university you can partner with the lgbtq center on campus there's resources there  um those are ideas of things at like the the college and the pro level that might be  available that you know maybe at the at the club level I'm not I'm not sure of any I haven't heard  of anything like that happening the strategies do change because you have different liability  issues with you know when you're when you're with Club in high school obviously you need parental  permission for for some things for a lot of things when you get to College past 18 they're adults so  there's a little bit more freedom to just run with something um so like you know I coach at  the largest Catholic School in the country and we had a we hosted a pride night awesome  um and so you know it's it you know I didn't have to get anyone's permission I just you know we did  it and the campus loved it um so I think that's really the only difference I can think of when  it comes to strategies is you know when when you deal with youth you you have to be very thorough  and organized with how you present um whether it be events or you know because you you obviously  if there's just a different Dynamic at play there and you want it to be a positive experience and to  the point that brick said you know normalizing it it's it's interesting so the pressure on people so  at least I'll just speak from my experience I I didn't you know when I came out or what I like to  term let others in uh when I let others into that part of my identity I didn't want a big to do I  just wanted it normal I wanted it just as normal I wanted to hold hands with my girlfriend just like  uh you know my friend would hold hands with her boyfriend and I just wanted us to both be able to  do that and I didn't need um and now again I can only speak from my experience but it it actually  took me longer to let others in because you know some people you know wanted to you know celebrate  that like so much like oh my God I'm so happy for you and I'm so like I'm totally cool with  that and right I didn't you know first off I hate when people say that you know like cool like I'm  cool with you wearing pants too like sounds good I'm glad we're both cool with normal things but  um I I just I I wanted to just be myself and not have the spotlight on I didn't but I know some  people really enjoy that and I want to respect that as well so I think things changed based on  the environments you're in and certainly I I approach things from a sometimes a liability  standpoint just because I don't want that moment for that child to go so negative because someone  decides to take that moment away from that person and go in this direction because they're  you know there's just they're responsible for for their child and all that so you know I just  think that thinking things through and and like Brooke said using resources that have worked and  um because that that moment and that space and that event needs to be really positive and not a  negative thing right right thank you for sharing your experience um and just kind of bouncing off  of that with you know talking about normalizing it and everybody's different too and want different  things different reactions um why why don't athletes feel comfortable athletes and coaches  feel comfortable coming out and within their Community um and you know maybe the answer to that  might help a club director or coach or someone listening to create that inclusive environment  I think that's a great question and also like a really personal question in the sense that the  answer is probably going to be you know there may be threads of similarities but it's going  to be very different personal free for each person um I I think that you know I'll I'll speak for me  and that I I came out very late I came out after I was I was done playing professionally um and  there was I experienced internalized homophobia and I didn't even know what that term meant until  like a couple of years ago when I started studying about studying about the implications of that so  um really quick could you I don't I don't know myself can you speak a little bit about yeah so  internalized homophobia is is when we think about the messaging that we receive about our identity  um the messaging that I received about identifying as a lesbian or as non-binary growing up was that  was there there was it was there was a lot of Shame around it and then it's something to be  hidden and that I should I should I should present as feminine and and Dem and especially if I'm on  a team I like at UC Santa Barbara volleyball team that you know showing up with my Spandex and Bows  in my hair and it presenting is feminine and that that's that is part of the culture it's  a culture a culture problem and it's the messages that we receive from media and and everywhere in  our life and so growing up I've internalized those messages and felt shame around the feeling that I  did not fit in to that model I didn't fit and I should just keep trying to fit and it just never  really worked and it was at the expense of my own mental health eating disorder is something that  I had experienced that I feel very much tied to the experience of internalized homophobia that's  something that's very common among lgbtq athletes and people in general um so there's all sorts of  ways that we sacrifices that we make to or mental health implications is probably the more accurate  way to say it in order to fit culture fit and so that that was my experience of just trying  to fit trying to fit and then realizing I can't do this anymore I need to just be myself be who I am  and and get healthy and and the process of getting healthy for me was was in line with the process of  becoming more fully authentic and that that was an extremely empowering Journey for me personally and  that is what I want to help lgbtq Youth and others adults too because everyone's in a different place  go on that journey of authenticity and and health too I think it's fear of being treated differently  you know I think it's it's a blend of it can be a blend of the it can be the environment  um that prohibits people from um coming out or letting others in depending upon how you want  to see it um but it also can be you know to what Brook's saying there's an internal environment  as well that interacts with your environment and it's the combat I think it's it's a blend  of those two things most of the time because I really respect my athletic identity I relate  to life as an athlete and I didn't know how to have space for more than one identity you know  I was a good student as well but like whatever that that I just did that but I really wanted  to be seen as an athlete when I was growing up and I still do which is why these eight pounds  and I'm still trying to shake from having my baby are really messing with my head right now just to  be fully honest but you know I really do still value my athletic identity and so I I didn't  want internally I didn't want another identity to take over and and for people to be asking me about  that identity regardless of what it was um I just happened to be lesbian in this case because I was  afraid it was going to take away from athletic identity into Brook's point I think volleyball  and this is going to be my opinion but volleyball is a very heteronormative you know it celebrates  heteronormativity a lot especially in the women's side I don't think as much on the men's side but  I've I'm not a man and I've never played men's volleyball um but I have seen it on the women's  side where you know it's um it's just it's the it's the the difference in cultures you know  um and so I think too you know it's just it's a fear of being treated different than what you  want to be seen as it's it's a fear of being seen as something that you you don't want it  to take and then what I figured out over time is we're a blend of a ton of identities right  um which is what our young children are learning now and and they're going to be hopefully in my  son is 18 months I hope that he's in a world now where he can celebrate his interracial identity  and and celebrate all his different identities and talk about them and they're the kids coming  up now are way more educated than us coaches and I'm only 38 you know so it's we're entering  a realm where they're coming up and and they're like looking at us like why don't you know how  to have these conversations why don't you know these terms you know so I think it's  a blend of the environment but I do agree with Brooke that there's an internal pressure there  that we all have to create or we all create and I think you have to look that in the mirror and  face it at some point and acknowledge it and respect it and then try to process through it  yeah and it's a dismantling it's a dismantling of the messaging that that is constantly being  fed and it it sort of never stops to me it just feels like a journey is something  that you have to just keep keep working on of rejecting messages about identity that that  that don't belong or don't fit or are harmful so it's a constant work it doesn't know yeah  how can athletes and coaches Club directors parents Spectators um you know anyone in the  in in this volleyball Community um show allyship and support and you know create that safe space  and help create that safe space that we are you know aspiring to you know kind of  achieve to you want to get there I start with one thing I think at a foundational  level you have to be willing to have a conversation even if you have strong  um convictions that differ than someone else's conviction absolutely you have to be willing  to have a conversation with people that are different than you are you have to be willing to  you know recognize where you have limitations and you still again it comes back to the response it  is your responsibility in the sports base to show up in a professionalized manner  and I think the mentally framing it first you know before we get to the checklist of activities and  I'm sure Brooks could write a book on that of all the different strategies but I think people have  to check you have to check yourself before you wreck yourself you know like you have to check  you have to become aware of what you're on biases and opinions and convictions are and and then you  have to learn how to walk into a space and have those and still respect the other even if you  do not have those same beliefs even if you do not have those same convictions even if you really are  struggling to understand another person's identity that that's not the end goal the end goal is not  to take on another person's identity the goal is to be able to walk into a space and build a bridge  between two human beings and and have a respectful discussion and respectful thirst of learning  and and I just wanted to lob that up because I think that mental frame is so important yeah  because if you just get to the list of things and you don't account for the fat people are just  going to rip your your sheet up or not they're not going to walk into that space constructively  willing to to walk into it and I think people need to Humble themselves we need to Humble ourselves  I don't know everything we may have differences but I need to humble myself I am I am not God I  am just Marie you know and it's Friday and we're here having a conversation you have to humble  yourself in the bigger picture of the world and we have to find a way to do that mentally to frame  it so when you walk into the space I can still leave the space and think you know whatever I  want to think but there has to be a willingness to at least engage from a place of humility  first I love what you said and you know there's tons of lists and resources on like the Trevor  Project and trans athlete.com that you can look to and I'm not going to go down the list of resources  we'll include some of those websites and resources in the show notes but what I want to do is just  focus again Echo what what Marie just said which is I think you have to show up and be ready to  have a conversation with a posture of curiosity curiosity about the person in front of you what is  informing what are your experiences what is what's informing your your your opinions on things like  let's sit down and actually learn about one another and listen to each other's story and  listen to the ways in which they've hurt and which into the ways that they are currently hurting um  so that we can just start there and actually learn about one another and then I will also add to that  um as a as a coach or a parent or anyone in the in the life of an lgbtq person I would just say don't  rely on your loved one or your athlete to be the your educator do your own education there are so  many resources out there do your own education and then show up and be curious in the posture of love going off that language is a powerful tool um and when I'm a head coach and and I'm in charge of my  team even along the recruiting process I bring my wife into the conversation I normalize it I  talk about my wife just like I would talk about my husband um we have a child you know um she's  in my bio again I work at the largest Catholic University in the country DePaul University is  the largest Catholic University in the country and I have my wife and my child in my in my bio  which is public so I I think just continuing to show examples that there can be this bipartisan  existence with entities and ecosystems in our world and that I think it for me I always like to  see something you know and this is how I've always been as an athlete right you want to learn a move  you watch you watch Michael Jordan right if you're a basketball player you watch Kobe and then you  go out to the playground and you try to emulate what Kobe's doing you know I did the same thing  in volleyball you want to be a great volleyball player and watch the Olympics you know and watch  what okay okay so how's this Setter doing this you know I think a lot of these other things too I  still fall under the same umbrella you know I need to go on a website and kids do they go they go on  the interwebs and they look up you know do you have representation and are are your are your  coaches talking about things you know regardless if you have a representative or not from from  that group like Brooke is saying but just seeing you know seeing things and and being able to go  oh that's that's cool you know her wife's in the bio awesome that immediately like relaxes people  you know um and makes them feel comfortable walking into the space I just think people  need to continue to see examples um which again is the low-hanging fruit part um of allyship I mean  reposting I mean social media is such a huge thing um and and can touch so many people so quickly  uh it impacts so many people so quickly it takes nothing to retweet an encouraging message I also  come back to the humility piece of being willing to say wow I didn't understand this population I  didn't understand how to treat this person and I made a mistake I blew it and I've had that  conversation too I'm and I'm part of the community you know I blew it I I did not handle that well  um I'm just gonna be the first one to own it and I've I'm willing to have conversations to  get better I think too just being able to say that sets up a space yeah yeah I love that my  wife is in my bio as well and it's it is um so important to me to to have that and to  have that space for that I also just want to add um believing who the person is they say  they are so when a athlete comes to you and says this is my Identity or a child or any loved one  any person just simply believing that they are who they say they are can be so so empowering touched on it a lot and just what you were just saying with having conversations with people  who realize they made a mistake and they own it social media but what what are some of the wins  that you've witnessed in in the inclusion space um that could be just through your work with the ACA  or even this weekend maybe which what are some of the wins that you've seen well us being here feels  like a big win having this conversation in this space is is a really big win um being able to have  a conversation around lgbtq inclusion in person at the ABCA convention feels like another big win  um celebrating out athletes is is a huge win and I I I want us My Hope for the future is that we  continue to do a better job of supporting the lgbtq out athletes and coaches that exists within  the volleyball community at every level from Club all the way to the to the national team  because we are we are here you are not alone and we want to support and continue so so anytime that  um an identity is is celebrated to me that that feels like a win when I got into coaching in  2007 I was one of the only out coaches in the country and I I started I've only been in D1 so  I can't speak to d2d3 because I don't have that data but when I came in 2007 I wasn't  even out yet out or in and spending um you know I didn't really uh go through that process until  you know I want to say you know probably 2011 2012 so it took it took a long time for me to  internally you know face a lot of those things before I was ready to externally you know deal  with the rest of it and now in 2022 I mean at at every level of volleyball people are  publicly posting their wedding photos you know um to you know uh to to their husbands wives and  um and I just think that the increase that the win for me is the increased amount of coaches that  have normalized major life events like weddings obviously the Supreme Court vote helped with that  um back in 2013 or what was that 2013 2014 2014. um yeah I think that sounds right and then just  got you know signed into yeah so this is sweet so this is a cyber big one I'll show you this quick  story so yeah so here's here's the win for me 2013 I was in the state of New York and at that point  in time only five states had legalized uh same-sex marriage it had not been legalized at a federal  or protected at a federal level and correct me if I'm using these words incorrectly I'm only  speaking from my experience but five states and so I was living in New York one of those five states  and I was working for a head coach who got let go and I need I knew then as an assistant I was  going to have to move while my girlfriend and I you know were like well [ __ ] you know what do  we do if we moved to one of the other states yeah that doesn't so we got married in a living room  um just in case you know the Supreme Court was voting on it what if the Supreme Court  voted down or didn't vote to protect it and we wanted it to be officially married  um so we we did you know we went to City Hall and um and and got the marriage certificate  got married in our living room and then I the next day I played West Virginia you know like I  practiced I still have my makeup on like and then we went and played a volleyball match  and again that's the beautiful bleeding of the identities but we had to do that  um and you know thankfully I ended up moving to California which I think was one of the other  states where it was protected and the Supreme Court voted anyway which was great but I was  put in that scenario you know now I I wouldn't have to do that you know I could choose like I  wouldn't have to be like hey on a Thursday night uh we gotta get married quick you know because  I don't know where my next job is going to be um but it was just such a a beautiful experience but  I say that because now in in 2022 you know I have plenty of coaching colleagues that it's out there  it's on their socials it's they're they're posting these big life events with their significant  others with their spouses and that for me is the biggest win um whereas when I was going through it  I was exceptionally alone and super isolated because I was one of one or one of maybe two  um and that was the first one through the wall is always bloodied and it was not a  pleasant experience externally you know hearing from people that I was committing career suicide  um for doing that but I pleasantly stuck with it obviously still married  um but now in 2022 those same people aren't going through those conversations anymore I mean and  maybe they are but it's not at such a huge level because you have student athletes and admins going  to these weddings now celebrating that person in that space at least at the college level asking  about the scene if you know there's I mean I work at DePaul people ask about my wife again largest  Catholic School in the country and and my athletic department set that standard from day one when I  got there hey how's your girlfriend hey how's your wife you know how's Steph doing and I just  think that that okay so that continues to reaffirm okay this is normal I am in a normal relationship  you know because you do you got these things that messages that feed feed the beast in another way  yeah the messaging you know you used to it used to feel like the messaging was you could you need to  choose between your identity and your career you can't can't have have both especially includes at  Athletics yeah yeah and and that is something that we're trying to change and is changing  um also I think that the sports equality Foundation has just done an incredible job  of creating a network of of lgbtq coaches and athletes so um that that to me is a huge win  when I look at our Tick Tock page there's 17 000 plus people just like wow that we are not  alone and I think that that that to me feels like a a huge win so just continuing the conversations  um and being supportive of one another um is something to celebrate it's it it's a lot easier  to be an ally than it is to be yeah to be a hater for sure join us let's go find that Tick Tock page  what what words of support um do you have for you know somebody who you know may have recently came  out or is having a difficult time you know with the reactions to uh to the situation you know it  could be you know it can be something you know it could be you know somebody coming out or  anything along those lines but um you know as you mentioned before you know it's not always  um all accepting you know what what words of support do you have there or encouragement or  just suggestions that you had do you have for you know that person I would say give people a chance  you know and and I understand that's really hard to experience when you're having a an intimate  moment with letting a part of your identity out of the world and somebody steps on that  um and treats it in a pretty aggressive way um and or hurtful way but I think  within that moment it's it's really important to to remember that there is a chance for this  person to grow because they're seeing this part of my identity and that's not your responsibility  their growth is not your responsibility but you're now in in a position where it if you  can continue to let that's why I like let that person in you know continue to be who you are and  just let that person into this this part of your identity and and truly who you are and people will  you did you give people a chance people can surprise you you know when I told my grandmother  who at the time was 99 years old you know she's lived through you know World War the Dust Bowl  you know get I mean everything that happened in the 60s you know you name it she's been through it  um she was immediately accepting I didn't think that that was going to be the case so sometimes  you have to give people a chance and then when I you know was navigating the professional space  and some very close people to me in the career space where and my family you know  um were telling me you're committing career suicide and that was not an easy thing to hear  um but those same people fast forward eight nine years later are you know  better people because they've learned to accept me who I am and now they've changed their View  and and they are way more their heart is way more open because I've just continued to be Marie  you know and so I think just when you let others in  it that their reactions on them that that reaction's on them and while it can be painful  and certainly it it you know sometimes will be I think not taking their reaction in you can't  like internalize their reaction and you have you can continue to be consistently yourself and give  that person a chance to grow because they've met someone like you who has this identity and  now your intersection of meeting them has given them a chance to evolve just like in  some other ways you have to evolve you know um I just think giving human beings a chance  for me that gave me hope that gave me a glimmer of hope to hold on to because the hurt was very  it was very isolating you know especially because I love volleyball and I wanted to be a coach you  know so so to like Rick said be forced to choose between who you are and what you want to be well  you know so I think giving people a chance because people will and can evolve human  beings can't evolve nobody is statically who they are right now for the rest of their life  you can evolve and so that that gave me hope and like I said fast forward eight nine years  later I mean I've gotten those same people are are speaking very differently now and are very  accepting and now they're very accepting to others who are having similar identities which is great  yeah I love that um it's so true I think that trusting that wherever people are at they they  can and will change if you continue to stay in a relationship with them I just want to add to that  that if it is a harmful relationship and if it becomes um a if it becomes dangerous for you for  your mental health for your identity then reach out and get the help that you need get out of this  situation do whatever you need to do to protect your mental health and to protect yourself and and  there are mental health resources available for that Trevor Project is a great resource  um that are free right that are free that are free that's important yes yes thank you for that that  are free Mental Health Resources community support groups again our our non-profit is  a great place to start um protecting yourself and and getting yourself out of a dangerous  situation and doing whatever you have to do to be able to stay true to yourself and be  authentic and navigate that place and maybe when you're stronger and you have that support system  in that Network then maybe then you can continue to revisit those relationships and stay stay in  those relationships when you have support but getting the support you need getting Community  um again I'm speaking straight to lgbtq athletes and coaches that are out there that might be  feeling alone you're not alone so join us join others get support you don't have to navigate this  alone and and don't stay in a situation that is is dangerous for you I hope you can get yourself to  a place that is safe and empowering and hopefully over time those relationships will grow and change  that's one thing that coaches can do I mean when you're listening to this basket you can  do it right now on your phone or your computer you can you can tabulate those resources and  have them you know so if you feel like in a situation you do encounter a conversation  with your athlete and you're really worried about them I mean I'm a mandatory reporter for assault  um for for sex-based crimes for harassment I mean I go through training on training on training I  have a one sheeter on my phone a little notes tab in my in my Google notes with numbers and a  checklist of who I need to call when I encounter that situation that's easy I mean for coaches  to get prepared that is one thing that coaches I just thought about you mentioning it going online  and getting okay what do I need to do okay so I have the situation an athlete is in danger and  I'm worried about them you know what are what are the resource the free resources out there  and how do I handle it here's the number here's the website you know you got to have a plan for  that situation because you're gonna have to act you know you do have to act again we're  you're under the burden of responsibility for that person I love that we're having this conversation  here and and kind of goes with and it might be it might sound like an easy answer but how do  we keep having these conversations outside of pride month outside of national coming out day  for anyone listening how do we keep having these conversations the whole year around well I feel like I do have these conversations  um but I I think um you know one thing that I would like to to see in the future is that  um we're bringing lgbtq athletes and coaches into spaces to talk about something other than  just the lgbtq identity and advocacy that we're recognizing you know Marie is a coach and myself  as a sport performance consultant in mental health and performance and and having these  conversations and it's just being normalized and so just our presence then is an act of continuing  an active inclusion um and and not just with us but all of the the the athletes and the coaches  that you know that I that I may not know that are within our volleyball community  so that that to me is what inclusion looks like um and normalization looks like and yes  continuing to have conversations around Dei and inclusion are extremely important and they should  not be looked at as just like a you know just check the box here's the token conversation oh  we did our Dei training no let's examine how our identities all parts of our identity inform team  cohesion inform performance inform abilities to inform where we have tournaments where we  um job offers all of those things opportunities it's for someone with a marginalized identity it  is a part of every conversation and decision that that has to be made and so how can we we can just  continue to to normalize that and to bring those conversations into every conversation  Five Pillars so at DePaul you know all head coaches and our athletic department  is built around five pillars you know academic Excellence um building our DePaul brand uh  competitive excellence developing and equipping uh Future Leaders and then obviously external  philanthropy and community outreach and under that those pillars we have quite a bit of leadership  development for our student athletes that we do and then under that as volleyball athletes we do  I do quite a bit of leadership development it needs to be added to those structures you know  these conversations it's not just about let's work on our volleyball communication on the court so we  make sure if a serve is put in in between a seam I know if Brooke has it or I have it you know Brooke  was the All-American she's probably gonna take it but uh you know it's it needs to be a become  a part an ingrained part of again the ecosystem and the structure of what's already hap happening  nothing new needs to go in again because you say new and people go I don't have time  but you have built-in structures every team and club and high school has a built-in  structure of how they operate their program and within that structure you're already doing a  lot of these things this topic you know and a couple of other topics that are important  in in today's day and age need to be meshed in there so we're not only talking about how do  you handle 13 all in the fifth set you know we're also addressing a bullet point of that leadership  development is addressing you know marginalized identities marginalized communities and then  under that we're talking about you know the the lgtpqia community we're talking about you know  um racism right now in this country we're talking about those things as well like we  have to start having those conversations that has to be a part of our leadership development  these parts of our it can't just be how do I make the best athlete possible because that that's why  we're here is your volleyball identity is not your only identity you're walking into the gym with  you still got to win games but you're already doing something in your Club in your high school  you're already you're already doing leadership development in some Manner and and you've already  carved out time for that so this just needs to be embedded in there what you're already doing work Maria this has been incredible I'm glad we got to sit down and you guys both have a  busy schedule I'm sure a lot of people you're mingling with but really appreciate you taking  the time to sit down and talk with us and share your stories and your expertise with us  sure our listeners got a lot out of it for sure  thank you so much for having us it's just really a pleasure and honor to be here with you all where  can people uh find you follow you communicate with you if they have any questions yeah  um Sports equality Foundation has a Facebook group called The equality coaching Alliance  and go space for athletes as well we have a new app um that we are spread sharing we'll include  it all in the show notes headstrong mindset is the name of my mental performance Consulting website  all the resources are going to be on that lgbtq resource page there as well you can find me on my  socials Marie's attic on pretty much any platform besides Tic Tac I wasted way too much time on that um and you also can find my email is on the DePaul University website and so is my phone number  Tick Tock as well right I personally maybe we need to make a tick tock okay okay I can  do that but I do really get lost in it though I do and I started trying to make all these videos well awesome thank you so much again and uh hopefully we can have you on  again in the future wonderful thank you all thanks thank you another incredible conversation that we were able to capture at the avca convention man I  just think back to that weekend it was such a crazy hectic busy but incredible weekend  of just all but like all volleyball across the board and that included our conversation with  Brooke and Marie uh one of my one of my highlights from from that week and from what I remember and  I just felt like you know by the end of it like we could just keep going and talk talk more with  them and just get more information from them and and just really dive deep into that so hopefully  we can have them back on or even more experts in the space back on to continue this conversation  because it's it's such an important topic uh and one that should be you know we talk about this  you know offline all the time we want to continue these conversations ongoing throughout the year  and not just once or twice a year um you know with pride month or national coming out day uh we want  to continue that conversation and hopefully yeah down the road we can just bring in more experts  to to continue that conversation and um you know just get more information more resources  um how we can better the community for sure absolutely and are you thinking about 2023 of  just who won hope we can you know ruin the podcast to you know 2023 in Tampa you know that um I don't  know like 2022 but I mean I like you said um once everything got started once that 10 plus hour  drive from Denver Colorado Springs to Omaha was done once we were there we were there and it was  just such a wealth of information and networking and just again first side being there just taking  it all in on top of that and just you know seeing what went right what went wrong and you know  talking to these amazing individuals and I think this is one of our you know final interviews that  we're you know kind of posting here on the uh on the podcast on the show uh here it is just  now we want to do it again and again and again and again and just again continue conversations  like you said but also you know make the progress make the not only make the progress and continue  the conversations but do the work that's required to you know support these conversations to support  these individuals that we interview and you know hear their side of things and you know just  just do what needs to be done yeah if that makes sense no that's a little bit no that did yeah get  the information and then and then make the action plan but it put it into action afterwards too  um so yeah definitely understand what you're saying there but really  appreciate Brooke and Marie for telling some of their personal stories as well  um absolutely I I hope our listeners were able to connect with those and and get a lot out of that  um to hopefully bring back to to their clubs and their lives as well but  like I said we're really hopeful to have more experts into this space come on to our podcast  down the road and continue this conversation most importantly for listeners whether you're  athletes coaches parents if you have questions or are looking for additional information or  resources check out headstrongmindset.com you can also check out the trevorproject.com lbgt  hotline dot org more resources can be found in our show description as well or on our  USA volleyball our very own USA volleyball Dei page at usabollyball.org backslash Dei  once again just a huge huge thank you again to Brooke and and to Marie uh for sitting down with  us I'm not sure how many of uh you have been to in ABCA convention uh but like you know like  we mentioned in fast episodes and you know a few seconds ago talking about this but it is  jam-packed with Incredible speakers all around uh so the fact that they took time out of their busy  schedule uh was so awesome and you know you can you can follow Brooke and Maria on social media  uh they're both open to answer your questions from you so definitely reach out and and learn more see  how you can support them see what you know you know you you guys need to con what you guys can  continue to do for each other and you know just continue to make you know progress towards the  right foot make the right foot forward just right right you know that little you got there he got  there man my voice is gone and I'm trying but again uh suction amazing sit down conversation  and you know just a lot of personal and you know uh just informational stories there you  know such a great conversation for sure so thank you definitely let's move on to upcoming events  we have the Ron Jon Beach and board Fest March 11th through the 12th in Cocoa Beach Florida  the Mad Saiyan Juniors march on March 11th in Plano Texas the S CVA Red Rock rave girls  National qualifier week two March 11th through the 13th at Mandalay Bay Convention Center in  Las Vegas the SS OVA March Treasure Island March oh March 12th couple marches in that title there a little repetitive that's okay march on March 12th in Treasure Island of Florida  mid-east girls National qualifier week one on March 17th through the 19th in Indianapolis  the Northern Lights girls National qualifier week two March 17th through the 19th in Minneapolis the  Mideast girls 18's National qualifier March 17th through the 19th also in Indianapolis  good luck to everyone competing in those events shout out to all the usab regions setting up and  hosting those events more details and all on all upcoming events can be found at usabolleyball.org  now on to the pro side of things we have several pro events going on in March I think we're kind of  as we said we're in the heat of it now we're we're also In the Heat of pro season too of for our USA  teams but starting with the north Sega u19 boys Continental Championship March 11th through the  19th and Guatemala the beach pro tour Challenge and La Paz march on March 16th through the 19th  in La Paz Mexico the beach pro tour Futures and let's see if I can get this mount manganoi  I think I got that I think you got that Marge um that's right uh and lastly we have the beach pro tour Elite 16 and that big uh Mexico that's March  22nd through the 26th uh and that's it right now for for March for process for pro events but let's  uh let's hear about some Club reminders for me Clarence you know in the thick of qualifying  season like we just mentioned in the beginning of the episode Sunshine qualifier is a wrap but we  do love Salt Lake City Showdown coming up April 8th through the 10th and April 14th through the  16th registration is still open but it is closing very very soon we were also getting very very very  very very very close to that the USA volleyball show uh mug Cameo right there love that oh yeah  but yeah we're also getting very close to that uh registration refund deadline so if you're a  team that is in the system right now and have not completed your registration requirements  meeting you had entered into the event paid the registration fee and taken care of your  housing requirements through our partner team shop of sourced I'm gonna do that very very  very very quickly or you will be dropped from the tournament and if you're looking to add  you need to get in and do those requirements a set we also have registration open for our  open National Championship uh which is for our adults uh lovely lovely competitive adults in  Dallas Texas from May 26th through the 31st again good luck to all teams traveling and  competing International and Regional qualifiers thank you to all the regional Commissioners that  are also helping put on their qualifiers and Nationals in their specific regions uh it's  a lot of hard work but you know it's got to be done and we're doing it to the best of our  abilities and you guys are doing it to get the best of your abilities too so thank you for that  more permission on dates divisions deadlines can always be found at USA volleyball.org remember listeners you can rate and review share with friends family teammates it really helps  this podcast grow and reach new listeners and now check out our video episodes as well going  up on our website and YouTube channel we thank you for your continued support  do you know a club that should be featured or an athlete uh paired coach who should be featured you  like us to share their story on this podcast you can email us at the usabshow at usab.org  leave us feedback there as well uh we'd love to hear from you uh we want to hear about any  future topics uh conversations that you want us to have here on the podcast but until next  time you are listening to the USA volleyball show the official podcast of USA volleyball producer is Lara Fawcett our marketing lead is Bree Jaycox if you enjoyed this  podcast be sure to rate and review and if you haven't already please subscribe to the USA  volleyball show on Apple podcasts Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts [Music]