The biographer who inspired Christopher Nolan’s blockbuster film Oppenheimer

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- Physics

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- World.

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Hello and welcome to the
Physics World Stories podcast.

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I'm Andrew Gluster. And in this episode,

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we're gonna be hearing
from Kai Bird, who, along

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with Martin Sherwin won the Pulitzer Prize

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for their biography, American
Prometheus, the Triumph

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and Tragedy of Jay Robert Oppenheimer.

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The book has since been
read by Christopher Nolan,

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and it was that book that
inspired the film Oppenheimer

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and will hear Kai's thoughts
on Nolan's film, as well

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as some insights into
the writing of the book

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with his friend and
physicist Martin Sherwin.

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And of course, I wanted
to understand how Kai

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and Martin had gone about
uncovering Oppenheimer's

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enigmatic character.

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If you haven't seen the film,
don't worry, you still can.

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It's about to be released
on streaming services,

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and more importantly, as far
as I'm concerned, on Blu-Ray.

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But there are no spoilers
in this conversation,

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so you can listen to this
before watching the film.

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Here's Kai Byrd.

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- I'm a biographer and historian

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and, uh, executive director
of the Leon Levy Center

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for biography in New York City.

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And, uh, the author of a
number of biographies, uh,

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including I guess these
days, most famously

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American Prometheus,
the triumphant trials,

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the triumphant Tragedy of
Jay Robert Oppenheimer.

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And, uh, my last book was a
biography of Jimmy Carter.

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Uh, what else? I, I've also
written, uh, biographies

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of ACIA officer who
worked in the Middle East,

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and I wrote a memoir about
my childhood growing up in,

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in the very war Troubled Middle East.

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And that book is rather
relevant these days, <laugh>,

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but, but, um, so is Oppenheimer, sadly,

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because it's all about nuclear
weapons and McCarthyism.

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- Okay. So can you tell, it looks

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to me like there's a thread
of, well, what is it politics,

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what is it that draws you

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to these particular stories to write

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- About?

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Yes. My, my first biography
was on John Jay McCloy,

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a not well-known Wall Street lawyer,

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who was essentially the chairman

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of the American Foreign
Policy Establishment.

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So I've always been interested in sort of

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how power works in a
democracy like Americas

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and, uh, uh,

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and so I'm interested in the elites

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and the establishment.

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And, uh, so I wrote a book on McCloy

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and then McGeorge Bundy,
who was a major architect

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of the war in Vietnam.

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And, uh, then I was
persuaded by Martin Sherwin

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to join him on his
project, uh, biography that

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he had been working on

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for 20 years about Robert
Oppenheimer, who was also sort

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of a member of the American
Foreign Policy Establishment,

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um, as father of the atomic bomb.

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But then he was the,

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essentially expelled from the
establishment in 1954 when he

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was put on trial for,
in a security hearing

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and stripped of his
security clearance and such.

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But anyway, yes, I'm, I'm
interested in, in using biography

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to explain, uh, politics

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and how power works in
a complicated democracy

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like the United States.

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- Okay. So go, just go back to the

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American Pre Prometheus book.

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You said that Martin had
been writing it for 20 years.

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Why, why did it taken him that long

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and why did he come to you?

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- Well, he had signed a
contract with Alfred Kop, a

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major publisher in New York in 1980

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to do a biography of Oppenheimer.

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And he sort of caught biographers
disease, which is, uh,

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when you can't start writing

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because you know, there's
one more archive you need

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to visit, and there's
always one more interview

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that needs to be done.

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And, uh,

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and he became convinced that
the story was so important

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and so complicated, uh, that he sort

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of got mired in the research
he did, you know, off and on.

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He was a tenured history
professor, so he worked on it

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every year, but part-time.

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And, uh, after 20 years, he
sort of realized he was stuck,

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and he and I had become
friends, colleagues,

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and, uh, he came to me in, in

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around 2000

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and suggested that I
should join him on, on his,

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by his Oppenheimer project.

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And I said, Marty, I I like you
too much to do that <laugh>,

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because I, I, I did like him.

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He was a very funny and lovable guy.

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Um, but, you know, co-authorship is often

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fraught with many perils.

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And, um, so I, I, I actually hesitated,

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but he persisted and,

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and, uh, he finally told me, you know,

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if you don't join me on this,

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my gravestone is gonna
read. He took it with it

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- <laugh>.

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- So I guess that was
a persuasive argument.

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And, uh, but it still
took us five years to

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write together the book and
get it, get it published.

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And it came out in 2005, won
the Pulitzer Prize in 2006,

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and then here we are,
you know, 18 years later.

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And suddenly Christopher
Nolan has turned it into

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a major motion picture,
uh, which is terrific.

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I think the film is very good,

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and I think the film is, uh,
persuaded a lot of people

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to go back and look at this
biography, American Prometheus,

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but others, and, and have
made people curious about

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Oppenheimer, but, but also the physics

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and the history of World War
II and the Manhattan Project

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and, uh, the whole role
of scientists in, in

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our 21st century civilization. Mm-Hmm.

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- I want to get onto that,
but can I just ask you about

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winning the, the Pulitzer Prize?

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How was that? Uh,

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- Well, it was terrific.

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I, I told Marty at the time,
this was in the spring of 2006,

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that I thought we had a
good chance of winning it,

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because looking at the competition, I, I,

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I thought we had done a very good book,

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and Marty, uh, thought I
was an inveterate, optimist

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and naive, and that it
was never gonna happen.

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But you get a phone call
out of the blue one day,

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usually in April,

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and, uh, you, you don't know
that you've been nominated.

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You don't, you don't know anything.

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And suddenly you get a phone call saying,

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they've chosen your book
for the Pulitzer Prize

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for biography this year.

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And oh, you know, it
was, it, it was terrific.

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Um, it brought new attention to the book,

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and we acquired many more readers.

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And of course, I think
that's one reason why, um,

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the book was eventually turned into

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a film, but you never know.

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- Does winning Nepal Surprise

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or Christopher Nolan making a film out

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of your book Increase Sales more?

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- Oh, definitely. Nolan
<laugh> <laugh>, no question.

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<laugh> No.

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The book, you know, has been, uh,

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18 weeks now on the New York Times

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bestseller list since July.

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Right. And it was never
on the bestseller list

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in 2005, 2006.

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Okay. You know, it sold moderately well

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and got plenty of good reviews,

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but it never became a bestseller.

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You know, it's a 700 plus page biography,

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and I think it, it's a,

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that's intimidating to many readers.

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And of course, you know,

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until Nolan came along in this film, I,

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I think most people on
the planet had never heard

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of the name Oppenheimer.

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And, uh, if they had heard
of him, all they knew was

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that he was somehow
associated with being father

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of the atomic bomb.

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- Those people who had heard
of him, I think probably

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the word enigmatic comes up quite a lot.

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Right, right. So, how did
you get to the bottom of

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who he was and crucially what he thought?

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- Well, Marty had done, you
know, 20 years of research.

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He'd accumulated 50,000
pages of archival documents.

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He'd interviewed over 150 of Oppenheimer's

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relatives, colleagues,
students, fellow physicists.

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Um, and,

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you know, Oppenheimer is,
uh, an endlessly fascinating,

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uh, figure who is a scientist.

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You know, he was on the
cutting edge of quantum physics

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in the 1920s studying at Cambridge,

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and then Gerkin in Germany.

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Uh, but, you know, he was also
a polymath and a synthesizer.

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And, you know, he, he
loved, uh, he wrote poetry.

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He loved the poetry of TS Elliot.

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Uh, he loved the novels
of Ernest Hemmingway.

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He, you know, he was widely read.

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Um, and, you know, he
was born in New York City

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of Jewish ancestry, uh,

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but he was raised in the
Ethical Culture Society,

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which was a sort of offshoot,
a secular offshoot of

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reformed Judaism, um, a very intellectual

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society that had a school,

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the Ethical Culture
school that he attended.

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Um, and, uh, you know,
he goes off to Harvard

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and then Cambridge to study
chemistry and then physics.

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Um, and he's, he's endlessly complicated.

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Uh, you know, he, he's
of Jewish background,

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but in the 1930s, he acquires a, uh,

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interest in the Hindu spiritual, uh,

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text the Gita Baba Gita,

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and so much so that he learns Sanskrit so

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that he can read the Gita in the original.

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So this is a guy who's very complicated.

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Um, he had a, an emotional
nervous breakdown,

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uh, at the age of 22, uh,

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in Cambridge, England.

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Uh, he went to see a series of
psychiatrists psychologists,

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um, uh,

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and he was someone who
was, you know, capable of

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great empathy for other human beings,

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and yet, uh, very complicated.

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And he's capable of transforming himself.

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You know, initially he was a
terrible university professor.

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He couldn't give the lecture,
uh, but he learned to do it,

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and he became quite charismatic.

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Likewise, he was never any, he,

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he never administered anything

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more than a half dozen
graduate students at Berkeley.

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But then in 1942, he's most

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and probably chosen to
become scientific director

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of this enormous project,

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building a secret city in Los
Alamos to build the gadget.

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And he transforms himself into
a brilliant administrator,

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uh, again, very charismatic.

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And, uh, he's capable
of inspiring these, uh,

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scientists all with high large
egos, chemists and physicists

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and engineers, and to
come together and work

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and collaborate on this project

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to build the first atomic bomb.

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And they do it in two and a half years.

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You know, he's, he, Marty
and I sort of, you know, even

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after Marty spent 25 years on Oppenheimer,

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he was still curious about him, still

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frustrated with trying to
understand some of the decisions

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that Oppenheimer made, um, still,

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you know, he was still
a mysterious figure.

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So, uh, we're,

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we struggled to understand his politics

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and to try to figure out,
you know, was how, just

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how close he was to the Communist Party.

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Um, we concluded in the end
that the 7,000 plus pages

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of FBI documents

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and his FBI file, um,
proved that he was certainly

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pink, but not red, okay.

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<laugh>, that he had
never actually joined the

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Communist Party formally.

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And this made sense. He, we
concluded he was not the kind

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00:13:46,165 --> 00:13:49,485
of intellectual, sort of
free spirited intellectual

247
00:13:49,485 --> 00:13:51,965
who would submit himself
to party discipline.

248
00:13:52,825 --> 00:13:55,045
Um, but you know, it's a mystery.

249
00:13:55,825 --> 00:13:58,685
Uh, he certainly was very
close to the communist party,

250
00:13:58,755 --> 00:14:01,565
gave money to communist party projects,

251
00:14:02,595 --> 00:14:04,005
like trying to

252
00:14:04,515 --> 00:14:07,645
desegregate the local public
swimming pool in Berkeley

253
00:14:07,745 --> 00:14:09,365
and such.

254
00:14:09,505 --> 00:14:13,365
But, uh, anyway, he, Marty
and I, you know, even

255
00:14:13,365 --> 00:14:16,805
after finishing the book,
we were still fascinated,

256
00:14:16,805 --> 00:14:19,085
still curious about this, um,

257
00:14:20,315 --> 00:14:21,965
complicated man.

258
00:14:22,385 --> 00:14:24,405
- So I wonder if you could sit down

259
00:14:24,405 --> 00:14:26,005
with him maybe over dinner.

260
00:14:26,825 --> 00:14:28,125
Uh, what would you ask him?

261
00:14:28,195 --> 00:14:29,925
What, what, what are the questions left

262
00:14:29,925 --> 00:14:31,125
that you would like to put to him?

263
00:14:31,425 --> 00:14:32,965
- Oh, you know, we, Marty

264
00:14:32,985 --> 00:14:35,645
and I couldn't understand
why this brilliant scientist

265
00:14:35,695 --> 00:14:40,645
would, uh, tackle an issue
in physics, like, uh,

266
00:14:40,915 --> 00:14:45,805
exploring the implications
in the math of, uh,

267
00:14:46,475 --> 00:14:49,885
that there of Black Hole theory

268
00:14:50,785 --> 00:14:52,125
and could sit down

269
00:14:52,125 --> 00:14:56,525
and write a very short
theoretical physics paper

270
00:14:56,955 --> 00:14:58,885
with his, one of his graduate students.

271
00:15:00,145 --> 00:15:04,725
And he did this in 1939, you
know, sort of whipped it out

272
00:15:05,705 --> 00:15:07,165
and then walked away from it

273
00:15:07,165 --> 00:15:10,485
and never, never studied the issue again.

274
00:15:10,805 --> 00:15:12,445
<laugh>, why not <laugh>?

275
00:15:13,545 --> 00:15:16,925
You know, he might've, uh,
well, this explains sort

276
00:15:16,925 --> 00:15:20,805
of in one reason why he never won a Nobel,

277
00:15:20,805 --> 00:15:25,085
because he never spent enough
time on any one problem

278
00:15:25,185 --> 00:15:28,605
to sort of make it, make it his own.

279
00:15:29,305 --> 00:15:32,605
Um, but he dabbled, he was a dabbler in,

280
00:15:33,465 --> 00:15:37,725
and he, he could see, um,

281
00:15:38,665 --> 00:15:40,245
he could see interesting questions

282
00:15:40,265 --> 00:15:41,485
and he would address them,

283
00:15:41,585 --> 00:15:45,365
but then move on to the
next interesting question.

284
00:15:46,105 --> 00:15:47,525
But this is, this is

285
00:15:48,035 --> 00:15:50,485
precisely why he was a great synthesizer

286
00:15:50,985 --> 00:15:55,285
and, uh, a why he was able to rise

287
00:15:55,345 --> 00:15:59,125
to the challenge of
transforming himself into an

288
00:15:59,125 --> 00:16:02,205
administrator of the
Manhattan Project. Um,

289
00:16:02,715 --> 00:16:03,715
- Yeah.

290
00:16:03,715 --> 00:16:05,045
But that, so that's why
he, why he was able to,

291
00:16:05,165 --> 00:16:06,645
but why did he want to, what was,

292
00:16:06,645 --> 00:16:07,965
what was his motivation for that?

293
00:16:08,505 --> 00:16:10,445
- Oh, his motivation was political.

294
00:16:11,025 --> 00:16:14,365
You know, he understood, uh,

295
00:16:15,035 --> 00:16:19,125
from having studied in Germany with

296
00:16:20,145 --> 00:16:21,965
people like Heisenberg

297
00:16:22,145 --> 00:16:25,845
and Max Bourne, that these
German physicists were just

298
00:16:25,845 --> 00:16:29,725
as capable as any other
physicists around the world

299
00:16:30,145 --> 00:16:33,205
and himself to tackle this problem.

300
00:16:34,025 --> 00:16:38,925
And it was clear from,
you know, 19 39, 40 that

301
00:16:39,515 --> 00:16:43,605
from the physics, that
theoretically it was possible

302
00:16:43,625 --> 00:16:47,725
to build a gadget that would
have enormous explosive power.

303
00:16:47,945 --> 00:16:49,045
And so he feared

304
00:16:49,045 --> 00:16:52,045
that the German physicists
were already working on this

305
00:16:52,895 --> 00:16:54,925
since the war had started in 39,

306
00:16:55,265 --> 00:16:59,765
and, uh, that they were
gonna be able to give Hitler

307
00:17:00,305 --> 00:17:02,525
an atomic bomb before anyone else.

308
00:17:02,705 --> 00:17:05,685
And this would be, this
would be a disaster.

309
00:17:05,785 --> 00:17:08,365
It would allow Hitler to win the war.

310
00:17:09,425 --> 00:17:13,805
Um, so his motivation
was as an anti-fascist.

311
00:17:14,705 --> 00:17:19,365
Um, and, you know, as a
loyal American, he wanted

312
00:17:19,685 --> 00:17:21,285
to contribute to the war effort.

313
00:17:22,185 --> 00:17:26,285
And as a scientist, uh, this was, this is

314
00:17:26,335 --> 00:17:29,685
where he could make the
most dramatic impact.

315
00:17:30,825 --> 00:17:33,445
Uh, but at the same time,
he was perfectly aware

316
00:17:33,445 --> 00:17:35,565
of the nature of this terrible weapon,

317
00:17:35,865 --> 00:17:38,525
and he worried about the implications of

318
00:17:38,525 --> 00:17:40,925
what he was building.

319
00:17:41,945 --> 00:17:45,245
But, you know, this is, again,
one of the sort of mysterious

320
00:17:46,475 --> 00:17:48,765
enigmatic aspects of his personality.

321
00:17:49,145 --> 00:17:53,925
He, he was aware of the
contradictions in what he was doing.

322
00:17:54,665 --> 00:17:56,405
He knew he had to do this.

323
00:17:57,305 --> 00:17:59,485
And, uh, even after Hiroshima

324
00:17:59,485 --> 00:18:01,765
and Nagasaki, you know, he never said

325
00:18:01,765 --> 00:18:03,205
that he regretted what he had done.

326
00:18:03,745 --> 00:18:07,525
He understood that what he
had done was inevitable.

327
00:18:09,225 --> 00:18:13,925
And, uh, you know, this
is actually relevant

328
00:18:13,925 --> 00:18:18,725
to our times because, uh,
you, it's important for people

329
00:18:18,745 --> 00:18:21,045
to understand that you
cannot stop science.

330
00:18:21,735 --> 00:18:26,165
Human beings are going to forever

331
00:18:26,955 --> 00:18:31,045
explore the physical world
around them and make discoveries

332
00:18:31,505 --> 00:18:33,965
and figure out how things work.

333
00:18:35,145 --> 00:18:38,285
Um, so the real question
becomes, you know, how do you

334
00:18:38,865 --> 00:18:40,405
manage these discoveries?

335
00:18:40,425 --> 00:18:43,485
How do you manage technology?
How do you regulate it?

336
00:18:43,505 --> 00:18:45,085
How do you make it humane?

337
00:18:45,785 --> 00:18:50,205
How do you integrate it into, uh, a

338
00:18:51,665 --> 00:18:53,565
humane society, um,

339
00:18:53,945 --> 00:18:58,845
and not allow it to get out of control?

340
00:18:58,905 --> 00:19:01,125
So I'm thinking of course of AI

341
00:19:01,345 --> 00:19:04,805
and climate change issues and,

342
00:19:05,425 --> 00:19:06,605
and the environment,

343
00:19:06,825 --> 00:19:10,165
and, you know, these are all
issues that we're struggling

344
00:19:10,165 --> 00:19:11,365
with as human beings.

345
00:19:11,425 --> 00:19:14,645
And, and unfortunately
we're surrounded by science

346
00:19:14,745 --> 00:19:16,085
and technology, of course,

347
00:19:16,265 --> 00:19:19,965
but, um, the average citizen
anywhere here in America

348
00:19:20,105 --> 00:19:24,445
or, uh, elsewhere, nevertheless,
doesn't seem to, um,

349
00:19:24,455 --> 00:19:26,405
understand the scientific quest

350
00:19:26,585 --> 00:19:28,085
and the nature of the process.

351
00:19:28,545 --> 00:19:30,925
And, and, uh,

352
00:19:32,185 --> 00:19:35,765
and there's some even suspicion
of science and scientists,

353
00:19:36,705 --> 00:19:39,565
and you can see this most
dramatically during the recent

354
00:19:40,245 --> 00:19:43,205
pandemic where public health
officials were questioned

355
00:19:43,345 --> 00:19:46,445
and conspiracy theories rose and,

356
00:19:47,465 --> 00:19:49,245
and, uh, the integrity

357
00:19:49,625 --> 00:19:53,605
and authenticity of scientific, you know,

358
00:19:53,605 --> 00:19:57,445
the scientific advice,
public health advice that was

359
00:19:58,375 --> 00:19:59,805
given, you know, scientists

360
00:19:59,805 --> 00:20:02,365
and public health officials
were struggling to figure out

361
00:20:02,385 --> 00:20:04,085
how to respond to the pandemic.

362
00:20:04,705 --> 00:20:07,165
And of course, it means experimenting.

363
00:20:07,705 --> 00:20:10,645
It means trying to figure
out what the facts are,

364
00:20:10,945 --> 00:20:13,445
and you have to be able
to change your mind.

365
00:20:13,945 --> 00:20:18,405
And this is not understood well, uh, in

366
00:20:19,655 --> 00:20:21,565
among the general population.

367
00:20:21,945 --> 00:20:25,085
And that's a, that's,
that's unfortunate seems

368
00:20:25,085 --> 00:20:28,965
- To me that the film certainly
is at least in part, about

369
00:20:29,525 --> 00:20:31,525
politics getting involved
in science as well.

370
00:20:31,545 --> 00:20:33,245
And does that concern you still?

371
00:20:33,665 --> 00:20:34,725
- Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

372
00:20:36,505 --> 00:20:38,285
And, you know, Oppenheimer's life

373
00:20:38,305 --> 00:20:42,925
and what happened to him
is a, a, a major lesson,

374
00:20:43,185 --> 00:20:47,725
you know, in nine, in 1945,
he was hailed in America

375
00:20:47,985 --> 00:20:49,885
as, um, as the country's

376
00:20:51,355 --> 00:20:53,165
most famous scientist.

377
00:20:53,465 --> 00:20:56,205
His image was put on the
cover of time and life.

378
00:20:56,465 --> 00:20:57,765
And, uh,

379
00:20:58,185 --> 00:21:02,405
and then nine years later,
he is literally destroyed

380
00:21:03,025 --> 00:21:07,805
in this kangaroo court of a
security hearing and humiliated

381
00:21:08,145 --> 00:21:12,085
and, uh, stripped of
his security clearance

382
00:21:12,225 --> 00:21:16,885
and disinvited thereafter
from university speeches

383
00:21:16,995 --> 00:21:18,245
that had been scheduled.

384
00:21:18,305 --> 00:21:22,205
And, you know, he becomes,
he was once a scientist

385
00:21:22,465 --> 00:21:26,245
who was also a public intellectual
speaking out about public

386
00:21:26,345 --> 00:21:28,005
policy issues.

387
00:21:29,385 --> 00:21:34,005
And nine years, you know, in 1954, he was

388
00:21:34,925 --> 00:21:39,125
prohibited from any longer
being a public intellectual.

389
00:21:39,125 --> 00:21:41,885
And of course, this sent a
message to scientists everywhere,

390
00:21:42,825 --> 00:21:44,565
you know, beware of getting,

391
00:21:46,125 --> 00:21:49,165
speaking out from your
narrow lane of expertise

392
00:21:49,315 --> 00:21:52,125
because you could get
in trouble politically.

393
00:21:52,665 --> 00:21:57,285
And so this explains why even today, uh,

394
00:21:57,505 --> 00:22:00,605
we do not have, uh,

395
00:22:02,825 --> 00:22:06,205
uh, major public intellectuals

396
00:22:06,425 --> 00:22:09,085
who are respected, who are scientists.

397
00:22:09,345 --> 00:22:11,805
Uh, you know, they're just
not very many of them.

398
00:22:12,665 --> 00:22:16,645
And that's, that's odd
given where we are in,

399
00:22:18,905 --> 00:22:23,845
uh, with a, a global
civilization based on science

400
00:22:24,565 --> 00:22:29,245
<laugh>, it's very, it's
very, it's very odd. I

401
00:22:29,245 --> 00:22:30,365
- Mean, the last one I can think

402
00:22:30,365 --> 00:22:32,965
of is Stephen Hawking
possibly was in that sort of,

403
00:22:33,145 --> 00:22:34,485
you know, when Stephen Hawking said

404
00:22:34,485 --> 00:22:36,725
something, it was the
news. Right, right. But,

405
00:22:36,985 --> 00:22:40,125
- But there are just a
handful of people like that.

406
00:22:40,505 --> 00:22:43,645
And, and again, I think

407
00:22:45,105 --> 00:22:49,765
the average citizen seems
to look at these scientists,

408
00:22:49,955 --> 00:22:53,485
even somebody like
Hawking as an eccentrics.

409
00:22:54,175 --> 00:22:56,005
- How's your physics? Did you have

410
00:22:56,005 --> 00:22:58,645
to read up on quantum physics
a lot to write this book?

411
00:22:58,715 --> 00:23:00,525
- Well, I had to bone up on it, yes.

412
00:23:00,625 --> 00:23:03,845
But no, I'm not a scientist.
Uh, I'm a biographer.

413
00:23:04,265 --> 00:23:07,165
Um, in college I took a course in physics,

414
00:23:07,305 --> 00:23:09,245
it was called Physics for Poets,

415
00:23:09,885 --> 00:23:10,885
- <laugh> <laugh>.

416
00:23:11,715 --> 00:23:12,885
Okay. Was that good?

417
00:23:13,565 --> 00:23:16,325
- <laugh>? It, it, well, it
helped me to fulfill my science

418
00:23:16,875 --> 00:23:19,325
requirement in at college <laugh>. Okay.

419
00:23:19,605 --> 00:23:23,645
- <laugh>. - But no, I don't,
you know, I can't pretend

420
00:23:23,645 --> 00:23:25,125
to understand quantum physics,

421
00:23:25,665 --> 00:23:28,525
but I had to learn enough
about it to be able to

422
00:23:29,415 --> 00:23:33,045
write about it and plain English,

423
00:23:33,625 --> 00:23:37,845
and, uh, hopefully not
make any egregious mistakes

424
00:23:38,025 --> 00:23:39,205
in describing it.

425
00:23:39,265 --> 00:23:41,645
But, and there, there are no, you know,

426
00:23:42,405 --> 00:23:45,845
American Prometheus is a
long book about a scientist,

427
00:23:45,905 --> 00:23:49,125
but there are no, there's very
little quantum physics in it,

428
00:23:49,305 --> 00:23:53,165
and no formula, no math <laugh>.

429
00:23:53,705 --> 00:23:58,445
So it's a, you know, it's
a book about the men's, uh,

430
00:23:58,995 --> 00:24:03,645
private life, his, his education,

431
00:24:04,225 --> 00:24:06,685
his loves, his politics

432
00:24:07,785 --> 00:24:12,525
and, uh, his role in, as
a scientist in society.

433
00:24:12,705 --> 00:24:15,005
But there's, it's not a book about quantum

434
00:24:15,005 --> 00:24:16,205
physics, <laugh>. Oh,

435
00:24:16,885 --> 00:24:18,485
- I, I wonder if you,
'cause you wrote the book,

436
00:24:18,485 --> 00:24:21,005
and then I'm, I, as I
understand it, you went

437
00:24:21,005 --> 00:24:22,445
to the set of the film.

438
00:24:22,865 --> 00:24:24,885
Do you, do you have,
uh, any insight in terms

439
00:24:24,905 --> 00:24:29,075
of the storytelling as
an author as opposed

440
00:24:29,075 --> 00:24:30,995
to the storytelling as a, as a filmmaker?

441
00:24:31,025 --> 00:24:35,435
- Well, it's very different,
you know, in 700 plus pages,

442
00:24:35,575 --> 00:24:40,475
you can get into a lot of detail
and description and nuance.

443
00:24:41,455 --> 00:24:45,035
Um, but I, as a biographer,

444
00:24:45,155 --> 00:24:48,955
I count myself very luckily
that Nolan was the director who,

445
00:24:49,895 --> 00:24:51,755
um, landed on this project

446
00:24:51,785 --> 00:24:55,275
because he's extremely, um, astute

447
00:24:55,575 --> 00:24:58,475
and intelligent, and he's
interested in science.

448
00:24:59,975 --> 00:25:04,795
And, uh, he found a way to tell the story,

449
00:25:04,975 --> 00:25:08,835
to transform the, the written narrative

450
00:25:09,335 --> 00:25:12,755
and really capture a large
part of the story on film.

451
00:25:12,825 --> 00:25:14,275
It's a long film, three hours,

452
00:25:15,255 --> 00:25:18,835
but that's nothing
compared to the 720 pages

453
00:25:19,055 --> 00:25:21,195
and of the narrative in the book.

454
00:25:21,975 --> 00:25:25,155
But he captures, I think,
you know, the personality of

455
00:25:26,675 --> 00:25:30,875
Oppenheimer, the Intenseness,
Killian Murphy's depiction

456
00:25:30,875 --> 00:25:33,715
of Oppenheimer is, is very aptt.

457
00:25:33,855 --> 00:25:38,035
And he comes across as this very intense

458
00:25:38,855 --> 00:25:42,435
driven, extremely articulate, um,

459
00:25:44,085 --> 00:25:47,435
young man who's interested in science,

460
00:25:47,655 --> 00:25:49,115
but philosophy as well.

461
00:25:49,455 --> 00:25:50,715
And, uh,

462
00:25:51,895 --> 00:25:56,675
and has, uh, uh, a,

463
00:25:58,635 --> 00:26:02,595
a re uh, uh, a fascinating relationship

464
00:26:02,625 --> 00:26:04,155
with the women in his life.

465
00:26:04,575 --> 00:26:07,035
His first love Gene Tatlock,

466
00:26:07,055 --> 00:26:10,035
and then his long relationship
with Kitty, who comes.

467
00:26:10,695 --> 00:26:15,635
Anyway, kitty is, comes across
as a very complicated, um,

468
00:26:17,825 --> 00:26:18,835
vivacious and,

469
00:26:19,055 --> 00:26:22,715
and, uh, uh, scientist in her own right,

470
00:26:22,895 --> 00:26:24,275
um, biologist.

471
00:26:25,055 --> 00:26:28,835
And, uh, so I think, you know,

472
00:26:28,965 --> 00:26:32,275
Nolan was able to, the story

473
00:26:32,655 --> 00:26:36,315
and to convey the, the

474
00:26:37,245 --> 00:26:41,075
difficulty of what Oppenheimer
was doing at Los Alamos

475
00:26:41,615 --> 00:26:42,915
in building this gadget.

476
00:26:43,145 --> 00:26:47,005
And at the same time, you see
him wrestling with the ethical

477
00:26:47,815 --> 00:26:51,685
dimensions of what he's doing,
and then you see his politics

478
00:26:51,945 --> 00:26:56,285
and his, um, the question
of his relationship

479
00:26:56,305 --> 00:26:57,325
to the Communist Party.

480
00:26:57,385 --> 00:27:02,045
And then you see the
consequences played out in 1954

481
00:27:02,155 --> 00:27:07,005
with, so I was very happy,
for instance, that Nolan chose

482
00:27:07,145 --> 00:27:11,285
to concentrate a lot on the 1954 trial,

483
00:27:11,285 --> 00:27:15,445
because that's really the, the, um,

484
00:27:15,905 --> 00:27:20,325
aspect of the story that, you
know, gives the story an arc.

485
00:27:20,475 --> 00:27:24,925
It's the triumph and then the,
the tragedy of his downfall.

486
00:27:25,905 --> 00:27:29,245
And that reminds me that, you
know, at one point when Marty

487
00:27:29,305 --> 00:27:31,205
and I were in the midst
of writing the book

488
00:27:33,425 --> 00:27:36,085
in the early two thousands,
Marty turned to me

489
00:27:36,105 --> 00:27:37,525
and said, you know, you

490
00:27:37,525 --> 00:27:40,645
and I wouldn't be spending all
these years on this story if

491
00:27:40,645 --> 00:27:44,365
it was just a story about
the building of the gadget.

492
00:27:44,585 --> 00:27:47,885
If it was just a story about
the father of the atomic bomb,

493
00:27:48,395 --> 00:27:52,165
what really makes it
interesting is in a human way

494
00:27:52,305 --> 00:27:55,925
as a human story, is how, um,

495
00:27:56,975 --> 00:28:00,325
vulnerable and fragile Oppenheimer was,

496
00:28:00,505 --> 00:28:04,085
and the fact that he was
tragically brought down

497
00:28:04,535 --> 00:28:06,085
after triumphing.

498
00:28:07,265 --> 00:28:10,525
And, uh, that story is
important politically

499
00:28:11,225 --> 00:28:13,765
to understand politics in America today.

500
00:28:14,225 --> 00:28:18,485
The McCarthyism that
Oppenheimer was the chief victim

501
00:28:18,625 --> 00:28:23,565
of in 1954 also explains
our politics today

502
00:28:23,565 --> 00:28:24,565
with Donald Trump

503
00:28:25,065 --> 00:28:29,125
and the divisiveness of
his brand of politics.

504
00:28:29,635 --> 00:28:32,845
It's, there's a direct link
between McCarthyism and,

505
00:28:33,025 --> 00:28:35,125
and the politics of Trump.

506
00:28:35,175 --> 00:28:37,685
- Right. Morality changes
across time, right.

507
00:28:37,685 --> 00:28:39,565
And it changes across cultures.

508
00:28:40,105 --> 00:28:42,805
And you are a, a student of history.

509
00:28:43,115 --> 00:28:47,225
When I'm watching the film,
it seems really odd to me

510
00:28:47,895 --> 00:28:51,825
that we have this juxtaposition
of a man, the same man being

511
00:28:52,505 --> 00:28:54,025
vilified for being left wing

512
00:28:55,275 --> 00:28:58,775
and being celebrated for his role in

513
00:28:59,615 --> 00:29:01,975
creating weapons of
mass destruction, which

514
00:29:02,555 --> 00:29:05,175
are dropped on two towns in Japan.

515
00:29:06,035 --> 00:29:07,255
Is it just me that looks at that

516
00:29:07,255 --> 00:29:09,415
and sees that juxtaposition
as really odd? Oh,

517
00:29:09,415 --> 00:29:10,415
- It is odd.

518
00:29:10,415 --> 00:29:11,695
And, and that's, yeah, it's a theme

519
00:29:11,695 --> 00:29:13,575
of both the book and the film.

520
00:29:14,635 --> 00:29:19,175
Um, this contradiction between, uh,

521
00:29:19,435 --> 00:29:23,295
the man who is creating
this terrible weapon

522
00:29:24,355 --> 00:29:29,295
and the fact that afterwards,
he spends essentially the rest

523
00:29:29,295 --> 00:29:33,135
of his life not apologizing
or regretting what he did,

524
00:29:33,835 --> 00:29:38,455
but trying to warn humanity about the

525
00:29:38,455 --> 00:29:41,885
consequences and the fact
that they need to take control

526
00:29:41,885 --> 00:29:43,965
of this technology and regulate it.

527
00:29:44,305 --> 00:29:46,085
And essentially, he
was making the argument

528
00:29:46,145 --> 00:29:47,245
for banning the bomb

529
00:29:48,305 --> 00:29:52,885
and, uh, creating an
international atomic inter, uh,

530
00:29:52,885 --> 00:29:57,245
authority that would have
sovereign rights to inspect

531
00:29:57,305 --> 00:30:00,765
and control any factory, any laboratory,

532
00:30:01,145 --> 00:30:04,165
and make sure that people were
not building these weapons.

533
00:30:05,155 --> 00:30:06,805
Well, his advice was ignored,

534
00:30:07,065 --> 00:30:10,725
and instead the, what happened
was his worst nightmare.

535
00:30:10,865 --> 00:30:15,125
We had a, an arms race, uh, an atomic

536
00:30:15,715 --> 00:30:19,885
weapons arms race for decades

537
00:30:20,145 --> 00:30:23,445
during the Cold War, and we're
still living with this bomb.

538
00:30:24,545 --> 00:30:26,645
No, Oppenheimer is very complicated.

539
00:30:27,065 --> 00:30:29,165
And, uh, I like to tell the story.

540
00:30:30,285 --> 00:30:32,325
I found at one point, you
know, I did very little,

541
00:30:32,555 --> 00:30:34,285
very few interviews for this book.

542
00:30:34,495 --> 00:30:36,245
Marty did most of the research,

543
00:30:36,385 --> 00:30:40,325
but in about 2003, I did discover

544
00:30:40,355 --> 00:30:45,085
that Oppenheimer's last
secretary at Los Alamos

545
00:30:45,985 --> 00:30:48,085
and Wilson Marks was still alive

546
00:30:48,385 --> 00:30:51,845
and was living just two miles
from me in Washington dc.

547
00:30:52,705 --> 00:30:54,445
And so I went and interviewed her,

548
00:30:54,745 --> 00:30:58,685
and at one point she told me the story of

549
00:30:58,705 --> 00:31:02,245
how she was walking to work
one day in the summer of 1945,

550
00:31:03,105 --> 00:31:05,125
and it was after the Trinity test.

551
00:31:06,425 --> 00:31:09,565
And, uh, she was walking
to work with Oppenheimer,

552
00:31:09,565 --> 00:31:12,165
and suddenly she hears
him muttering to himself,

553
00:31:13,095 --> 00:31:15,725
those poor little people,
those poor little people.

554
00:31:17,065 --> 00:31:18,325
And she stops and,

555
00:31:18,465 --> 00:31:21,085
and she says, you know, Robert,
what are you talking about?

556
00:31:21,185 --> 00:31:23,885
And he says, well, you know,
we now know the gadget works,

557
00:31:24,065 --> 00:31:28,045
and now it's gonna be
used on a target in Japan,

558
00:31:28,145 --> 00:31:32,165
and there is no military
target large enough other

559
00:31:32,165 --> 00:31:33,245
than a whole city.

560
00:31:33,425 --> 00:31:37,045
And so the victims are gonna
be those poor little people,

561
00:31:37,075 --> 00:31:41,445
largely civilians, women
and children, and old men,

562
00:31:41,585 --> 00:31:43,485
and, you know, not an army.

563
00:31:44,585 --> 00:31:47,965
And, uh, so he's painfully aware about of

564
00:31:48,195 --> 00:31:49,485
what is about to happen.

565
00:31:51,905 --> 00:31:53,805
So I came back from this interview

566
00:31:53,825 --> 00:31:56,125
and told Marty, Sherwin this story,

567
00:31:56,425 --> 00:31:59,285
and he pointed out very quickly that

568
00:31:59,285 --> 00:32:02,285
that must have been the
same week that Oppenheimer

569
00:32:02,865 --> 00:32:06,685
was actually meeting with the
Bombardiers who were going

570
00:32:06,685 --> 00:32:11,045
to be on the You gay and
dropping the first atomic bomb.

571
00:32:11,105 --> 00:32:13,725
And he was instructing them exactly at

572
00:32:13,725 --> 00:32:15,965
what altitude it should be released

573
00:32:16,105 --> 00:32:19,365
and detonated to have the
most maximum destructive

574
00:32:20,145 --> 00:32:22,085
impact, kill the most people.

575
00:32:22,945 --> 00:32:27,605
So here he is doing his duty as such,

576
00:32:28,075 --> 00:32:31,085
providing the weapon to the military,

577
00:32:31,665 --> 00:32:35,805
and at the same time he's,
you know, painfully personally

578
00:32:36,765 --> 00:32:39,505
worrying about the victims.

579
00:32:41,405 --> 00:32:45,145
So that, that's <laugh>,
that's the contradiction.

580
00:32:45,465 --> 00:32:49,305
- <laugh>. So you have studied
poetry for No physics for

581
00:32:49,355 --> 00:32:51,545
- Poets <laugh>, right. So

582
00:32:51,865 --> 00:32:55,865
- <laugh>, the, the start of
the film, Oppenheimer, um,

583
00:32:57,945 --> 00:33:01,785
Christopher Nolan has in
quite a poetic way, gone about

584
00:33:02,625 --> 00:33:05,465
representing Oppenheimer's,
understanding beginnings

585
00:33:05,465 --> 00:33:06,745
of understanding of quantum physics.

586
00:33:07,615 --> 00:33:09,345
What was your reaction
to that when you saw it?

587
00:33:10,635 --> 00:33:12,465
- Nolan, I think, again, there's,

588
00:33:12,465 --> 00:33:15,025
there's no heavy quantum
physics in the film,

589
00:33:15,205 --> 00:33:19,985
but he tries to convey
the music as he calls it,

590
00:33:20,205 --> 00:33:21,345
of quantum.

591
00:33:22,365 --> 00:33:26,945
And, uh, you know, the
film starts with raindrops

592
00:33:27,465 --> 00:33:30,625
dropping in a puddle and, uh,

593
00:33:31,065 --> 00:33:33,505
op the young Oppenheimer
staring at the puddle.

594
00:33:33,845 --> 00:33:38,825
And, uh, then you see the
young Oppenheimer walking

595
00:33:38,825 --> 00:33:40,945
through a, a art gallery

596
00:33:41,285 --> 00:33:45,185
and standing in front of a Picasso image

597
00:33:45,645 --> 00:33:50,545
of a cubist from the cubist
period of, of a portrait, uh,

598
00:33:51,085 --> 00:33:54,905
of a woman who's like a,

599
00:33:56,225 --> 00:33:57,865
a jigsaw p puzzle.

600
00:33:59,135 --> 00:34:02,305
It's Nolan's attempt to
convey the music of quantum,

601
00:34:02,525 --> 00:34:05,665
the mystery of, uh, that

602
00:34:06,685 --> 00:34:08,385
the smallness of the universe.

603
00:34:08,885 --> 00:34:10,305
And, uh,

604
00:34:11,925 --> 00:34:15,385
and I think he succeeds in,
in, uh, it's, it's, it's

605
00:34:15,605 --> 00:34:17,025
of course just an analogy

606
00:34:17,165 --> 00:34:19,825
and it flashes by in a, in a moment,

607
00:34:20,125 --> 00:34:24,545
but, uh, it conveys the mysteriousness of

608
00:34:25,205 --> 00:34:26,225
the quantum world,

609
00:34:26,325 --> 00:34:30,225
and that's what, uh, actually
attracted Oppenheimer to,

610
00:34:31,405 --> 00:34:32,745
uh, the new science.

611
00:34:33,525 --> 00:34:36,505
And, uh,

612
00:34:36,925 --> 00:34:38,945
so I think the film succeeds in that way.

613
00:34:39,565 --> 00:34:40,625
- Do you find yourself wanting

614
00:34:40,625 --> 00:34:42,305
to know more about quantum physics, uh,

615
00:34:42,305 --> 00:34:43,625
reading about Oppenheimer?

616
00:34:44,815 --> 00:34:48,905
- Sure, I do. I, you know,
I'm a layman as such,

617
00:34:49,285 --> 00:34:52,785
but, uh, when I read the newspaper, I, uh,

618
00:34:53,065 --> 00:34:57,945
I always read whatever news
reports I see about, uh,

619
00:34:58,125 --> 00:35:03,105
new discoveries with,
uh, for instance, these

620
00:35:04,285 --> 00:35:06,905
new pictures that we're
seeing of the universe

621
00:35:06,905 --> 00:35:09,145
because of the new telescope.

622
00:35:09,325 --> 00:35:11,185
And, uh, uh,

623
00:35:11,685 --> 00:35:14,745
and I'm, I'm, you know, I'm curious,

624
00:35:15,125 --> 00:35:18,265
but, uh, <laugh> in a very,

625
00:35:20,645 --> 00:35:24,625
uh, common citizens
fashion, I pay attention,

626
00:35:24,925 --> 00:35:29,345
but I, I can't claim to
understand the science. Yeah,

627
00:35:29,345 --> 00:35:30,345
- No, fair enough.

628
00:35:30,345 --> 00:35:31,905
Can I recommend physics
world.com, by the way,

629
00:35:32,385 --> 00:35:35,025
excellent resource for this
kind of thing in the film.

630
00:35:35,685 --> 00:35:36,985
The conversations between

631
00:35:37,445 --> 00:35:38,805
Oppenheimer and Einstein
are quite pivotal.

632
00:35:39,745 --> 00:35:42,165
How close is that to the reality?

633
00:35:43,145 --> 00:35:44,565
- The film both begins

634
00:35:44,565 --> 00:35:47,845
and ends with the conversations
between Oppenheimer

635
00:35:47,845 --> 00:35:48,925
and, and Einstein.

636
00:35:49,105 --> 00:35:51,965
And of course, those are
imagined conversations,

637
00:35:52,985 --> 00:35:55,565
but they're not, you know, improbable.

638
00:35:56,625 --> 00:35:59,205
Um, they could have happened.

639
00:36:00,305 --> 00:36:04,565
And, uh, it is true that Oppenheimer,

640
00:36:06,225 --> 00:36:10,565
at a certain point in Los
Alamos was confronted with, um,

641
00:36:10,795 --> 00:36:15,005
some math that suggested that
there was a, a possibility

642
00:36:15,635 --> 00:36:19,205
that the Trinity test could
ignite the atmosphere.

643
00:36:19,545 --> 00:36:22,805
And he did get on a
train and come back east

644
00:36:23,145 --> 00:36:27,165
and consult a physicist
about these calculations

645
00:36:27,635 --> 00:36:30,485
because he was worried enough to

646
00:36:32,725 --> 00:36:34,045
investigate the possibility.

647
00:36:35,025 --> 00:36:37,525
But he did not ask this
question of Einstein.

648
00:36:37,745 --> 00:36:41,725
He, in fact, was consulting
another physicist who, and,

649
00:36:41,745 --> 00:36:45,525
and Nolan was perfectly aware
of what he was doing here.

650
00:36:45,525 --> 00:36:48,605
This is a conscious decision
on his part to not introduce

651
00:36:48,705 --> 00:36:52,125
yet another character into
the film that already had

652
00:36:52,905 --> 00:36:54,085
dozens of characters.

653
00:36:54,385 --> 00:36:57,565
Um, and so he was trying to
simplify the story a bit,

654
00:36:57,625 --> 00:37:00,525
and I, I think that was perfectly

655
00:37:00,815 --> 00:37:03,165
legitimate artistic license.

656
00:37:03,505 --> 00:37:06,645
And instead he had Oppenheimer
having that conversation

657
00:37:06,675 --> 00:37:10,245
with o with Einstein,
a well-known, you know,

658
00:37:10,245 --> 00:37:14,205
obviously a very well-known,
um, scientist who

659
00:37:15,295 --> 00:37:18,285
there Nolan wouldn't have to
spend any time in the film

660
00:37:18,305 --> 00:37:19,365
to introduce him.

661
00:37:20,145 --> 00:37:21,365
Um, but

662
00:37:21,365 --> 00:37:23,885
otherwise, you know, there,
there is another conversation

663
00:37:23,985 --> 00:37:25,525
and that between Oppenheimer

664
00:37:25,525 --> 00:37:29,765
and Einstein that is based
on, uh, reality, where

665
00:37:30,685 --> 00:37:34,165
Einstein, if you recall,
comes up to Oppenheimer

666
00:37:34,165 --> 00:37:37,205
and asks them, why are you
going down to Washington to,

667
00:37:37,265 --> 00:37:40,885
to subject yourself to
this witch hunt of a trial?

668
00:37:41,945 --> 00:37:46,125
You know, if they don't want
your advice anymore, walk away.

669
00:37:46,785 --> 00:37:49,365
And that conversation
actually did take place,

670
00:37:50,745 --> 00:37:52,405
and it comes straight out of the book.

671
00:37:54,545 --> 00:37:57,965
And that's another
example to my mind of how

672
00:37:58,885 --> 00:38:02,685
brilliantly Nolan was able
to capture in the film,

673
00:38:03,675 --> 00:38:08,045
sort of the key he emotional moments

674
00:38:08,385 --> 00:38:09,725
of the biography.

675
00:38:10,585 --> 00:38:14,285
And, uh, so I, I, I,

676
00:38:14,605 --> 00:38:16,685
I applaud his achievement that, you know,

677
00:38:16,795 --> 00:38:18,925
he's transformed the book into something,

678
00:38:20,835 --> 00:38:22,565
into a different artistic medium,

679
00:38:23,025 --> 00:38:27,685
but he's been able to do
it faithfully, um, without

680
00:38:28,765 --> 00:38:33,085
introducing any egregious
historical errors.

681
00:38:33,845 --> 00:38:35,285
- Brilliant. Thank you so much.

682
00:38:35,665 --> 00:38:37,605
Um, well, are you going
to write a book about RNA

683
00:38:37,605 --> 00:38:39,045
v Braun for me, please? That

684
00:38:39,045 --> 00:38:41,485
- Would be <laugh>, no, <laugh>.

685
00:38:42,035 --> 00:38:43,485
Someone else is doing it.

686
00:38:43,865 --> 00:38:47,605
Um, and no, I'm, I'm,

687
00:38:48,025 --> 00:38:50,485
I'm working on another
book, another biography,

688
00:38:50,825 --> 00:38:53,965
but it's an entirely different figure.

689
00:38:54,245 --> 00:38:58,925
A man named Roy Cone,
who, uh, was a lawyer

690
00:38:59,185 --> 00:39:03,885
who was Chief counsel to
Senator Joe McCarthy in 1954.

691
00:39:04,985 --> 00:39:08,285
And, uh, was really a major architect

692
00:39:08,285 --> 00:39:13,205
of the whole McCarthy Witch
Hunt era as a young lawyer.

693
00:39:13,705 --> 00:39:16,605
And then he moved back to New York,

694
00:39:17,385 --> 00:39:20,005
and in 1973, he met a young

695
00:39:20,635 --> 00:39:25,045
real estate developer
named Donald Trump <laugh>.

696
00:39:26,345 --> 00:39:30,325
And he taught Trump everything
he knew about how to deal

697
00:39:30,485 --> 00:39:33,325
with the press and the law and courts.

698
00:39:33,625 --> 00:39:36,325
And he made Donald Trump.

699
00:39:36,385 --> 00:39:40,045
He gave Donald Trump a roadmap
to his political career.

700
00:39:40,665 --> 00:39:42,725
He explains the Trump phenomenon.

701
00:39:42,725 --> 00:39:44,725
- Well, that certainly sounds
like another fascinating

702
00:39:44,725 --> 00:39:45,805
book from Kai Bird.

703
00:39:45,945 --> 00:39:49,165
And if you are interested
in this sort of intersection

704
00:39:49,195 --> 00:39:51,125
between physics and politics,

705
00:39:51,225 --> 00:39:54,405
you might enjoy Bob Creases
article on physics world.com.

706
00:39:54,675 --> 00:39:57,725
What the movie Oppenheimer
Can Teach Today's Politicians

707
00:39:57,935 --> 00:39:59,405
about scientific advice.

708
00:40:00,275 --> 00:40:02,965
Also on physics world.com,
you'll find reviews

709
00:40:03,105 --> 00:40:05,245
of the film from the
physics world editors,

710
00:40:05,425 --> 00:40:07,605
and also my review of the film,

711
00:40:07,935 --> 00:40:10,645
which is entitled Beyond
the Bomb, the Life

712
00:40:10,645 --> 00:40:12,685
and Times of Jay Robert Oppenheimer.

713
00:40:12,825 --> 00:40:15,485
I'd like to thank Kai Bird
for not only writing the book,

714
00:40:15,585 --> 00:40:17,485
but also for joining me for this episode

715
00:40:17,505 --> 00:40:18,965
of the Physics World Stories Podcast.

716
00:40:19,665 --> 00:40:22,805
And I'd like to thank you
very much for listening,

717
00:40:27,675 --> 00:40:28,805
- Physics World.