051 - Fire Science in eyes of a firefighter with Szymon Kokot

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello, and welcome to Fire Science Show session 51.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Last week it was the celebrations.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was such a great pleasure to celebrate the piece of 50.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We had a great song.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was really a lot of fun for me too.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you very much to everyone who've participated and, uh, thanks to Matt and Guillermo, especially for their significant contributions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And now we're getting back to the normal routine, which is hardcore fire science.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Without dumbing it down.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>For today's episode, I've actually brought a firefighter to the show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>fire instructor and someone who's actually quite passionate about fire science as well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, his name is Szymon Kokot chief officer of, , Nidzica Polish State Fire Service department.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And he's also, um, Chief off a foundation, CFBT which is dedicated to training firefighters in Poland.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So without a doubt, he's passionate about fire service and helping communities.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Szymon also happens to be a doctoral student at the Main School of Fire Service where he's pursuing his PhD on thermal exposures to firefighters.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I think it's a very, very interesting subject.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Then I'm going to have an episode about that soon.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Ish.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But because of he's I think he quite well grasp the necessity of fire science to firefighters.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that is the first thing we're going to discuss about in today's episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The second thing is The exposure.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Of fire engineers to firefighters.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That is something I don't think we, we have enough.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't think we as fire engineers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Appreciate the job of a firefighter enough.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't think we understand completely what they are doing, what they want to achieve, what are their tools and how they use them.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I think it's a huge gap to be field.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>bye projects like, like this podcast to connect our groups together because together we can achieve much, much more.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if you ever wondered how a firefighting operations look,  what are the first thoughts in the head of experienced fire officer?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When you ask them?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What's happening when they arrive to the spot, you will be surprised.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I was surprised and it's eye opening.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>A, what.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Really they care about and what they seem to not care that much about, And the pressure points are quite different from what I've been told as a fire safety engineer.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So definitely a, an episode where listening to the end.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope you'll enjoy it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And yeah, let's not prolong this anymore.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's spin the intro and jump into the episode.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm today with a good friend.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Szymon Kokot of the Polish Fire Brigade and CFBT Poland foundation.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Great to have you in the podcast, Szymon

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<v Szymon Kokot>hi,  and it's a real pleasure to be on your podcast.

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<v Szymon Kokot>I'm a big fan and straight, I will say one thing, just, you have to, you have to leave a five star review for this podcast because it's absolutely fantastic.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, it's not possible to leave like lower stars, the software, we don't take it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it's a smart software.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you, Shimano.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and we can say welcome to the podcast again, because you had small appearance in, the,, watermist conference, Which was, which was interesting, even then, I really enjoyed how you talked about the, the firefighter in the room.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's already there, meaning that the sprinkler system and today.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, I do this podcast for fire engineers, for fire scientists.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope there's a lot of, firefighters and other professionals that deal with, with fire in some way, listening to us.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And often we, as, as fire engineers, we, we do a lot of stuff thinking about.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Firefighters and, to, to help firefighters, to assist firefighters, to change the environment in which firefighters work.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I think we don't have great appreciation of how that work looks like, what the challenges are and, It really means to battle fires.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm quite lucky.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I did the Main School Fire Service in Warsaw as a civilian.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>However, I will still expose to lots of training, meant for, for officers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, you did the same curse, but for offices in that schools.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we know what I mean.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I feel that in many places of the world, the fire engineers would come outside of the fire engineering.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They would come from mechanical or architectural or, or structural engineering become a fire engineers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So they have absolutely no idea how the job looks from the, from the firefighters perspective.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And first I wanted to ask you about.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>where do you see the biggest gaps in communication or knowledge?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or is there a quick way we could improve that because I feel it's a critical component.

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<v Szymon Kokot>well, I'm not sure if there's a quick way and if there is, I'm not sure I've I fully understand and appreciate how it can be done.

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<v Szymon Kokot>But like you said, I, I graduated from the main school of fire service first engineered and masters engineer.

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<v Szymon Kokot>I'm also doing my PhD still  under the Main School of fire Service.

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<v Szymon Kokot>It's on.

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<v Szymon Kokot>thermal radiation.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So I am a, I am a fire safety engineer myself, although I understand.

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<v Szymon Kokot>And I understood from the very beginning.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Within this, this specialization, you can also identify a number of, let's say sub specialization.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So there's command, obviously there's a prevention.

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<v Szymon Kokot>There's a lot to, to know about design and, and prevention and so on.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So I'm more on the side of, of command.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Let's say of intervention still.

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<v Szymon Kokot>my understanding is that there is no.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Theory without practice.

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<v Szymon Kokot>And there isn't a practice without theory.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So even if we consider ourselves to be more practical guys in the, in the scope of the fire engineering, by saying this, we automatically, devoid ourselves of a very important component, which is a solid, understanding of the theoretical foundations.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So many years after.

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<v Szymon Kokot>graduating, I'm still reading books.

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<v Szymon Kokot>I'm still trying to, you know, catch up with all the things that are going on in the, in the world.

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<v Szymon Kokot>A great example is what UL, , or currently fire Safety Research Institute is doing, by providing research that is dedicated for firefighters.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So I think that, firefighters basically need to understand that if they want to be really good.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Or a best version of themselves as firefighters, fire commanders.

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<v Szymon Kokot>They need to really have a very strong theoretical basis, which I suppose is lacking these days.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I love how you said that there are many fields in command is one, obviously, because for me, I, it's not an obvious thing, you know, and I think many, fire safety engineers would not, um, it would not be an immediate choice You know, the firefighter is that this guy with water who comes in and sprays water, we don't really appreciate the diversity, the logistics behind it, the knowledge and skills around it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And yet we try to.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Push for solutions that are meant to help in that work, that this is exactly what I meant with this lack of appreciation between our, groups.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe it's just, we don't talk to each other enough.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe it's something.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Other reasons I don't necessarily understand why, why would we not share, uh, engineers to firefighters firefighters then?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, I actually think that's, that is critical to, to talk with, uh, with firefighters.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

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<v Szymon Kokot>is, I will share with you, there's a saying which maybe you have heard, or the audience have heard, put the wet stuff on the red stuff.

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<v Szymon Kokot>it's the display of the philosophy that is often connected to the firefighting, but it's way more complicated than that because the wet state of being water is, is something with cooling capacity.

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<v Szymon Kokot>That's what we need to understand.

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<v Szymon Kokot>And the red stuff is something.

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<v Szymon Kokot>produces heat.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Now the heat is dependent on the access of air or the gas exchange.

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<v Szymon Kokot>the effectiveness of water is basically connected to your proximity, to the fire.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So if you're closer, you can obviously apply water in a more efficient way, but still, if you want to get closer, you're endangering your people.

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<v Szymon Kokot>You are committing them into smoke.

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<v Szymon Kokot>You have to calculate the time.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Then you have something that you flow and you have to supply.

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<v Szymon Kokot>so these are measurements or sometimes assessments of your water supply and so on and so on.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So it's a complicated world, which in addition has to be, played all this, this whole theater theater happens within seconds very often.

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<v Szymon Kokot>And then whatever you decide can dictate the outcome of your entire 2, 3, 4 hour intervention.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's interesting because, when we consider like five dynamics in compartment or in, in general fire development in the building, usually the moment that firefighters arrive is something like an end of calculations for us, because it becomes extremely complicated to include this, what she just meant, what the sprays and, and EV everything.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the eyes of the fire fighter and fire instructor, I think in the first place, how do you view the fire science or from your perspective, does fire science even exist as it, is it useful?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>what is young firefighter reading to learn about this?

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<v Szymon Kokot>It's funny.

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<v Szymon Kokot>You're asking this currently, he's reading my book.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Thanks.

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<v Szymon Kokot>I wrote the textbook on, structural firefighting for the fire service.

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<v Szymon Kokot>It is approved by the national fire chief as a, as a textbook for firefighting years before I worked on together with international colleagues and best Polish instructors, I worked on the development of the.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Of the curriculum.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So curriculum, then we designed, um, training infrastructure.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Then we produced, uh, instructors and then we produce training materials still.

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<v Szymon Kokot>There's a, there's some, some milestones to, to be reached, but, does the science exists, honestly, after many years, I will say that there isn't firefighting without science.

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<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, because often, often it's translated into simple terms and the lower you go in the ranks, obviously you need to make more simple.

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<v Szymon Kokot>procedures or algorithms for people.

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<v Szymon Kokot>If this, then that, if you want to be safe, close the door or whatever for this kind of, or limit the inflow, then you can complicate the idea further.

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<v Szymon Kokot>only a certain level of complication is necessary for understanding, but it's a very good exercise.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Eyeopening as the size and horizon broadening exercise for the commanders to actually know their science, because, because it governs everything.

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<v Szymon Kokot>yeah, I, , I have a very strong opinion that there isn't firefighting without science, it has to, it has to simply has to be the foundation, of even the, simplest or, most basic firefighting actions.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but at the same time it must be accessible.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like you said, there are certain levels which would probably come with.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Experience and formal training,

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<v Szymon Kokot>Yes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that you can go deeper and deeper into it with, but doesn't matter.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Even the, the, rookie, , voluntary firefighter should know.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fire science is just, it's the difficult job to, to present that fire science to them in a way they can comprehend given their current experience knowledge.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And let's say a formal training status, right?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's the challenge.

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<v Szymon Kokot>That is true.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So therefore not everybody can be a good instructor or a good teacher.

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<v Szymon Kokot>That's the first thing, but there's another branch of science or knowledge maybe is a better word, or maybe it's science, which is called pedagogics there is a science of teaching and there's a science of learning as well.

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<v Szymon Kokot>so for example, I'm a graduate of, pedagogical studies, uh, occupational health and safety studies.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Plus I like people.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So probably also that I'm, that I have.

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<v Szymon Kokot>The gift of the gab or I talk a lot or I pour water, as we say in Polish, uh, but, instructional design Is a critical, because I can, I can give complex books to firefighters and say, you know, in two weeks, I'm going to give you a test and you have to pass it to become firefighter.

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<v Szymon Kokot>But instead I rather, I prefer to create their interest in firefighting because fire is, It's a phenomenon that was, with, with the humankind Evans, since we started being a little bit more organized.

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<v Szymon Kokot>So we started living in the caves and, and used fire to quit eating raw meat or so, that was always something hypnotizing connected with safety, connected paradoxically, uh, with safety of, ho household and with.

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<v Szymon Kokot>Where I'm and, being close to, let's say your tribe sort of, so that's why people are still fascinated in fire.

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<v Szymon Kokot>And for example, this is one thing that we use in the pedagogy of teaching fire science to, uh, recruits.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I had this issue last year when, uh, there was this sad moment where professor Konecki has passed away in Poland, he was , my PhD supervisor and one of my mentors.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And he was compartment, fire dynamics guy, guy in Poland.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fantastic, fantastic person that really, really misses.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but this opened a hole in the curriculum of the university because he was giving compartment fire dynamics and he passed suddenly.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So the, the.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I had to continue.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I was very honored that I was asked to finish it, with the students and, what, it was just a a short chapter in my career.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>not an academic, but I I've met this 100 or 200 young people trying to learn being fire safety engineers.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I have a choice either.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I drop a, you know, a hundred of pages of.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>equations on them, which I, which I possibly could do to show them the theoretical foundations or I can just try to explain them how small changes in the compartment, change the outcomes of the fire and that you can actually, we have tools and models to calculate that, like, you open the door, the pressure plane changes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You put a wind boundary condition on your window.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The flow path changes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You change the size of the compartments, your, temperature will, will change in the compartment.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You have compartment begin of the fire will travel, things like that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And they were fascinated and they were, I assume it seemed that they really enjoyed , this view of science and it was not the dumbed down science, not, it's not the case.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It was just put in a simpler, terms that, that are, they just stubble and easy to.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Comprehend.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And in this form, I thought that they really benefit from my curse.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Obviously, professor Konecki had the  and he was able to do the equations together with, inspiring and that's something I would eventually one day maybe achieve.

00:15:44.980 --> 00:15:52.059
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would aspire despite that, but, but I thought that it is important to do like that because there was no point to, you know, push equations into their heads.

00:15:52.243 --> 00:16:04.258
<v Szymon Kokot>it's interesting that you're saying that because just just a minute ago, I thought about this very sentence dumbing down, and this is a sentence that I heard from, , John McDonough, who is one of the most recognized.

00:16:04.823 --> 00:16:14.982
<v Szymon Kokot>worldwide instructors of CFBT by the way, I will elaborate on the, uh, on the aggravation of the, or the acronym in a few moments as well.

00:16:15.403 --> 00:16:17.472
<v Szymon Kokot>And, and he uses.

00:16:18.423 --> 00:16:20.643
<v Szymon Kokot>Stop dumbing firefighters down.

00:16:21.153 --> 00:16:23.373
<v Szymon Kokot>I understand that this is science, but come on.

00:16:23.462 --> 00:16:24.363
<v Szymon Kokot>We are people.

00:16:24.363 --> 00:16:26.400
<v Szymon Kokot>We are, we have mastered civilization.

00:16:26.400 --> 00:16:29.562
<v Szymon Kokot>it's amazing, you know, just, just from private life.

00:16:29.623 --> 00:16:35.916
<v Szymon Kokot>If I took a loan today and I, my me and my wife, we went with our dogs, you know, and I always laugh to the dog.

00:16:35.946 --> 00:16:36.426
<v Szymon Kokot>Can you open the.

00:16:37.160 --> 00:16:38.541
<v Szymon Kokot>No, the dog cannot open the door.

00:16:38.541 --> 00:16:39.951
<v Szymon Kokot>Can you bring out the trash?

00:16:39.980 --> 00:16:43.100
<v Szymon Kokot>Now the dock cannot bring out the trash, not to mention about recycling.

00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:45.380
<v Szymon Kokot>You know, we are a civilized kind.

00:16:46.041 --> 00:16:50.201
<v Szymon Kokot>We need to, aspire not, not aspire down.

00:16:50.201 --> 00:16:51.311
<v Szymon Kokot>We need to aspire up.

00:16:51.311 --> 00:16:52.660
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, people are smart.

00:16:53.081 --> 00:16:56.260
<v Szymon Kokot>Everybody is able to understand the, the triangle.

00:16:56.426 --> 00:16:57.836
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>need to dumb down things, Sam.

00:16:57.980 --> 00:16:58.341
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:16:58.341 --> 00:17:01.760
<v Szymon Kokot>The triangle of fire or the tetrahedron as the Americans say or.

00:17:01.998 --> 00:17:02.197
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:17:02.268 --> 00:17:05.218
<v Szymon Kokot>If you mix, these elements, there will be fire.

00:17:05.337 --> 00:17:07.461
<v Szymon Kokot>Now this is, complex enough.

00:17:07.580 --> 00:17:16.971
<v Szymon Kokot>This is actually simple, but you don't need to make it more complex for the firefighter who is starting their, let's say adventure with firefighting and is working on the nozzle.

00:17:17.211 --> 00:17:19.101
<v Szymon Kokot>He or she, they need to understand.

00:17:19.431 --> 00:17:19.701
<v Szymon Kokot>Okay.

00:17:19.701 --> 00:17:20.780
<v Szymon Kokot>Do not, not too much air.

00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:23.661
<v Szymon Kokot>Try to be in the safe zone.

00:17:23.691 --> 00:17:26.240
<v Szymon Kokot>If you feel the heat is probably a little bit too late.

00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.875
<v Szymon Kokot>So watch the signs because your, gear works as a capacitor.

00:17:29.875 --> 00:17:31.065
<v Szymon Kokot>It, gathers heat.

00:17:31.184 --> 00:17:31.744
<v Szymon Kokot>And when you feel.

00:17:32.474 --> 00:17:33.974
<v Szymon Kokot>It's a bit too late.

00:17:34.035 --> 00:17:37.250
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, it's, we, now we have two good, PPE.

00:17:37.401 --> 00:17:38.961
<v Szymon Kokot>So everything is science.

00:17:38.961 --> 00:17:42.601
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, the PPE is so scientific, there's this layer that doesn't burn.

00:17:42.631 --> 00:17:47.250
<v Szymon Kokot>There's this layer that does not allow water in while letting your sweat.

00:17:48.060 --> 00:17:52.651
<v Szymon Kokot>You know, as, as vapor and there's this layer that just makes you comfortable, that can get wet.

00:17:52.651 --> 00:18:06.451
<v Szymon Kokot>And there's some resistance for this HTI, uh, or whatever, thing from, from the standard that is saying how much resistance there is against what the vapor it translates into comfort of working with.

00:18:07.056 --> 00:18:13.215
<v Szymon Kokot>Everything is basically advanced material, science of fire, science of combustion, science of water.

00:18:13.635 --> 00:18:18.960
<v Szymon Kokot>And so on hydraulics, the water delivery to fire it's science Bernoulli's equation.

00:18:18.990 --> 00:18:21.779
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, it's absolutely basic stuff to understand.

00:18:22.025 --> 00:18:22.214
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:18:22.275 --> 00:18:24.355
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Szymon let let's spin the table a little bit.

00:18:24.654 --> 00:18:31.734
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So let's, let's now try to expose some fire engineers to the firefighters one-on-one without dumping it down.

00:18:32.154 --> 00:18:43.095
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, you've once said that, whatever people made it will burn down and they don't design it for burning, but, uh, from your perspective, you have to be ready that it will.

00:18:43.095 --> 00:18:43.336
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And

00:18:43.369 --> 00:18:43.970
<v Szymon Kokot>Exactly.

00:18:44.069 --> 00:18:44.417
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:18:44.627 --> 00:19:02.615
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In the green room, we've chatted a little bit about it that, sometimes we as engineers, we would stop our calculation and say, okay, this is a very improbable fire, but, for you who have to go and, then, quenching down, it's not a great, uh, news that you you've have encountered a very, very rare fire in your life,

00:19:02.750 --> 00:19:04.250
<v Szymon Kokot>No, I signed the contract.

00:19:04.259 --> 00:19:05.089
<v Szymon Kokot>It's bad news.

00:19:05.299 --> 00:19:06.462
<v Szymon Kokot>I don't have experience.

00:19:06.462 --> 00:19:07.165
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you have to, fight it.

00:19:07.165 --> 00:19:13.932
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I really like, if you could explain, to engineers, like w what happens.

00:19:14.167 --> 00:19:25.730
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When firefighters arrive, because I think people don't really comprehend that, well, let's pick a big, an object, maybe a car park, you like car parks, you love car parks,

00:19:26.010 --> 00:19:26.431
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:19:26.441 --> 00:19:26.790
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:19:26.971 --> 00:19:27.480
<v Szymon Kokot>I love the

00:19:27.601 --> 00:19:29.330
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>everyone, everyone loves scalp

00:19:29.671 --> 00:19:30.451
<v Szymon Kokot>underground

00:19:31.250 --> 00:19:33.111
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Especially Mo yeah.

00:19:33.141 --> 00:19:33.411
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:19:33.411 --> 00:19:37.040
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's make it actually, let's make it on a multi-level underground car park.

00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:44.617
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so from my, from my perspective, when I'm engineering this, I would,, assume some design fire, which grows in the car park.

00:19:44.617 --> 00:19:53.428
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would design some smoke control systems to create a state of equilibrium inside the car park that he, this produced hit is removed.

00:19:53.867 --> 00:19:59.183
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Sometimes to various levels of, success in, in making the car park.

00:19:59.183 --> 00:20:10.753
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Smoke-free actually, it's never, smoke-free, it's always filled with smoke to some extent, but, 15 minutes into my analysis, I assume some firefighters show up and for me, the job is done.

00:20:10.753 --> 00:20:11.864
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's their problem now.

00:20:12.403 --> 00:20:15.367
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, from you when you arrive what's happening,

00:20:15.953 --> 00:20:16.284
<v Szymon Kokot>okay.

00:20:16.284 --> 00:20:27.354
<v Szymon Kokot>So, going back shortly to the motto, I used to say that nobody designs anything with the intention that it will certainly without a doubt, be on.

00:20:28.594 --> 00:20:35.074
<v Szymon Kokot>While we know that anything that humankind has produced will sooner or later be on fire.

00:20:35.253 --> 00:20:38.314
<v Szymon Kokot>And we will have to intervene by saying this.

00:20:38.314 --> 00:20:51.657
<v Szymon Kokot>I don't mean that everything always catches fire, but there isn't basically okay for the prevention officers surely, but for the intervention firefighters, there isn't a world of interest outside reality.

00:20:52.407 --> 00:20:55.438
<v Szymon Kokot>So whatever is designed manufactured.

00:20:56.307 --> 00:21:01.077
<v Szymon Kokot>We'll be only professionally of interest for us when there's problems with it.

00:21:01.377 --> 00:21:07.243
<v Szymon Kokot>So let's say we are the testing, community of all the problems, you know, that can be created.

00:21:07.332 --> 00:21:12.255
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I must stop you because he brought, before, uh, he didn't answer my carpet question, but you gave

00:21:12.354 --> 00:21:13.193
<v Szymon Kokot>I'm getting there.

00:21:13.193 --> 00:21:13.913
<v Szymon Kokot>I'm getting there.

00:21:14.025 --> 00:21:14.414
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:21:14.654 --> 00:21:15.704
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We'll get to the car park.

00:21:15.855 --> 00:21:22.118
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But I think if touch in the meantime, you have touched something really, really good that, for you guys it's always burning.

00:21:22.148 --> 00:21:26.199
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's like you don't get any intervention in the non burning building for us.

00:21:26.848 --> 00:21:33.239
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>For us, uh, a building that burns is a rare thing and low probability, even for you it's Wednesday

00:21:33.266 --> 00:21:34.875
<v Szymon Kokot>that's exactly the thing.

00:21:34.875 --> 00:21:50.743
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then I think this is also a reason why in the end fire engineers, and firefighters end up having completely different views fire, wwhat fire is how much money you should save while designing fire safety in the building.

00:21:50.743 --> 00:22:00.172
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, it's so rare and, but, but it also works Like on your side, it also skews up the view because for you, the fires are common.

00:22:00.172 --> 00:22:03.098
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They are, they're always there in a way.

00:22:03.368 --> 00:22:05.798
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Whereas in fact, the six show they arrive.

00:22:05.873 --> 00:22:14.648
<v Szymon Kokot>Exactly, but in a way, because I, totally appreciate the work that is being done by fire engineers, because otherwise we would be really screwed.

00:22:15.009 --> 00:22:22.729
<v Szymon Kokot>And I really appreciate that because if there was no quality control, safety features built in fail, safe mechanisms and so on.

00:22:23.239 --> 00:22:23.449
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:22:23.459 --> 00:22:24.798
<v Szymon Kokot>The world will be a disaster.

00:22:24.798 --> 00:22:29.385
<v Szymon Kokot>We will need probably half of the population to be firefighters or some kind of, first responders.

00:22:29.796 --> 00:22:33.167
<v Szymon Kokot>so, absolutely great respect for all the work that is being done.

00:22:33.493 --> 00:22:41.064
<v Szymon Kokot>I think that, there is a great need for the communities to work more closely together to understand both.

00:22:41.296 --> 00:22:58.915
<v Szymon Kokot>Both sides because was absolutely, enlightening to hear about the risk probability in your previous,, episodes from different, great people whom I admire vastly like, professor Ezokoye or, the guys who spoke about, battery fires, wooden buildings, and so on.

00:22:58.915 --> 00:23:00.586
<v Szymon Kokot>I have to admit, I haven't listened to all the.

00:23:01.022 --> 00:23:01.772
<v Szymon Kokot>They're on my list.

00:23:01.893 --> 00:23:05.282
<v Szymon Kokot>You're just producing, these episodes too fast.

00:23:05.282 --> 00:23:14.316
<v Szymon Kokot>And that's why you really not only deserved, but I demand that you get a five-star review on the podcast app from every slate right now.

00:23:14.766 --> 00:23:15.665
<v Szymon Kokot>That is an order.

00:23:16.115 --> 00:23:17.046
<v Szymon Kokot>I was reminded.

00:23:17.046 --> 00:23:18.083
<v Szymon Kokot>I'm a, deputy fire

00:23:18.173 --> 00:23:19.223
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>th there's a commander way.

00:23:19.403 --> 00:23:19.644
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:23:19.644 --> 00:23:20.453
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's go to the car.

00:23:20.487 --> 00:23:21.356
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>let's go to the chiropractor.

00:23:21.386 --> 00:23:22.676
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's let's tell the fire engine.

00:23:23.096 --> 00:23:27.686
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The firefighter does when they, when they get the colder, the carpet is in fire and it's underground.

00:23:27.686 --> 00:23:28.737
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We already agree that

00:23:28.885 --> 00:23:29.246
<v Szymon Kokot>Okay.

00:23:29.846 --> 00:23:30.416
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>underground car

00:23:30.615 --> 00:23:35.883
<v Szymon Kokot>So, so based on experience, there's a, PDA, pre determined attendance.

00:23:36.153 --> 00:23:52.858
<v Szymon Kokot>That's probably a very British term, like a minimum of vehicles and personnel that absolutely has to be dispatched to this kind of event as a minimum first let's say serving, and then when the commander is on scene he or she.

00:23:53.403 --> 00:23:56.703
<v Szymon Kokot>We'll decide if it's enough or it will, they need more.

00:23:57.153 --> 00:24:00.540
<v Szymon Kokot>Now this decision is based on a multiple factors.

00:24:01.048 --> 00:24:09.378
<v Szymon Kokot>if, this is a building that was, in the area for some time, there is an increased chance that they know the layout of the building.

00:24:09.739 --> 00:24:14.898
<v Szymon Kokot>If it's a new one, maybe there was just one visit or maybe there was no exercise yet.

00:24:15.493 --> 00:24:32.820
<v Szymon Kokot>we have, operational planning that envisages going to all major or complex buildings, uh, you know, frequently or at least try to put them on, on the list and check them one after another, because it's a maze the problem.

00:24:32.820 --> 00:24:39.661
<v Szymon Kokot>Like whatever, when I sometimes teach the firefighters in the factory, I tell them The difference, you know, what is your advantage?

00:24:39.691 --> 00:24:42.645
<v Szymon Kokot>You know, You know exactly the building.

00:24:42.645 --> 00:24:47.308
<v Szymon Kokot>So next time you just are walking around, you know, eating your donut, chatting with your friend.

00:24:47.578 --> 00:24:48.239
<v Szymon Kokot>Just have a look at.

00:24:49.048 --> 00:24:50.429
<v Szymon Kokot>This is your great advantage.

00:24:50.808 --> 00:24:54.868
<v Szymon Kokot>When we are attending a fire, we basically don't know where we are going.

00:24:54.929 --> 00:24:59.219
<v Szymon Kokot>That's one thing, the second thing, uh, we take into consideration.

00:24:59.219 --> 00:25:00.388
<v Szymon Kokot>What is the time of the day?

00:25:00.749 --> 00:25:05.308
<v Szymon Kokot>If it's a evening till morning, the car park is mostly full.

00:25:05.489 --> 00:25:08.278
<v Szymon Kokot>If it's the other part of the day, it's mostly empty.

00:25:08.398 --> 00:25:12.893
<v Szymon Kokot>So fire load, fire load, but also the ability or the easy.

00:25:13.548 --> 00:25:20.087
<v Szymon Kokot>To travel around it without being disoriented, because obviously you have to throw in a limited visibility.

00:25:20.448 --> 00:25:22.488
<v Szymon Kokot>If it's limited visibility, it's smoke.

00:25:22.488 --> 00:25:27.107
<v Szymon Kokot>If it's smoke, it means breathing protection, breeding protection has limited time.

00:25:27.361 --> 00:25:32.040
<v Szymon Kokot>so depending on also, depending on another, let's say science, which is ergonomics.

00:25:32.280 --> 00:25:33.810
<v Szymon Kokot>You have to be able to assess.

00:25:34.337 --> 00:25:39.243
<v Szymon Kokot>It's not entirely the case of the fire commander because every firefighter has to know this for them.

00:25:40.104 --> 00:25:41.604
<v Szymon Kokot>How much air they are using.

00:25:41.604 --> 00:25:57.946
<v Szymon Kokot>Is it 50, 60, 70, 80 liters per minute, based on different types of work, moderate work, heavy work or so on or more practically, they have to just read the gauge of, their, BA pressure frequently enough and be able to communicate if we want to communicate, there's a problem with concrete.

00:25:59.133 --> 00:26:01.173
<v Szymon Kokot>Which blocks the signal.

00:26:01.593 --> 00:26:04.782
<v Szymon Kokot>So, so there's, there's a number of, difficulties.

00:26:05.232 --> 00:26:13.155
<v Szymon Kokot>What is the average, ability of firefighter to, combat fire, be it coal smoke, be it attack the seat of the fire.

00:26:13.635 --> 00:26:19.486
<v Szymon Kokot>And if I'm having today an average firefighter, a very good firefighter or a poor fire.

00:26:20.143 --> 00:26:23.143
<v Szymon Kokot>It's a, it's a great set of variables

00:26:23.304 --> 00:26:29.684
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so-so, there's many like levels of constraints you have to take into account the, uh, time.

00:26:30.105 --> 00:26:36.404
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like you, you can send people for a certain amount of time until their breathing practice, uh, stops working.

00:26:36.404 --> 00:26:39.711
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And probably you need to secure the logistics, how

00:26:39.931 --> 00:26:44.701
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah, pull them out early enough so that they don't work.

00:26:45.030 --> 00:26:45.330
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:26:45.361 --> 00:26:59.090
<v Szymon Kokot>They don't work on the reserve because it's basically being in the danger zone, working on reserve, but also being able to send in, someone in exchange so that we have a continuous firefighting operation, then.

00:26:59.146 --> 00:27:02.626
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>mentioned communication, which also can be blocked by the belly.

00:27:02.671 --> 00:27:06.540
<v Szymon Kokot>It can, it can then visibility.

00:27:06.540 --> 00:27:08.641
<v Szymon Kokot>Do I have a thermal imaging cameras?

00:27:08.671 --> 00:27:18.887
<v Szymon Kokot>Now that's a piece of scientific equipment, you know, like reading, thermal, radiation, from editing objects, which by the way is also, they need to understand this is not a Terminator.

00:27:19.718 --> 00:27:20.978
<v Szymon Kokot>This is an assessment.

00:27:21.008 --> 00:27:25.387
<v Szymon Kokot>If it's heavy smoke, there's a lot of soot you will not be able to see through it.

00:27:25.627 --> 00:27:29.288
<v Szymon Kokot>So your camera is not broken is just, is just basically,

00:27:29.923 --> 00:27:31.644
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's reading once was real it's reading.

00:27:31.644 --> 00:27:32.034
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's reading.

00:27:32.034 --> 00:27:35.423
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The physics is just the physics that that's not really in your favor.

00:27:35.723 --> 00:27:37.284
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And what about a water?

00:27:37.284 --> 00:27:38.273
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You need water?

00:27:38.324 --> 00:27:41.213
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How, how complicated is water logistics?

00:27:41.227 --> 00:27:42.696
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I know from school it's not easy.

00:27:43.070 --> 00:27:44.211
<v Szymon Kokot>no, it's not easy.

00:27:44.510 --> 00:27:50.631
<v Szymon Kokot>And here I have a great mentor who is Paul Grimwood, whom Is a fantastic, gentleman, a gentleman.

00:27:50.631 --> 00:27:56.148
<v Szymon Kokot>And I mean it, by saying this, but he dedicated his life to developing science of what.

00:27:56.923 --> 00:28:13.173
<v Szymon Kokot>So in his PhD, which he defended probably in 2015, he identified the relation between early applied, high flow rates of firefighting water to a limited area destroyed by fire to limited time of work.

00:28:13.233 --> 00:28:19.114
<v Szymon Kokot>There is also two limited exposure to heat, to limited, uh, engine work, time and so on.

00:28:19.114 --> 00:28:19.624
<v Szymon Kokot>And so on.

00:28:19.624 --> 00:28:21.064
<v Szymon Kokot>Basically, If you apply.

00:28:21.415 --> 00:28:23.215
<v Szymon Kokot>Good enough water in the beginning.

00:28:23.635 --> 00:28:24.855
<v Szymon Kokot>There's everything.

00:28:25.608 --> 00:28:28.459
<v Szymon Kokot>it is, that's also a simplification simplification.

00:28:28.489 --> 00:28:31.522
<v Szymon Kokot>Everything gets more simple, but you need to be able to organize it.

00:28:31.522 --> 00:28:46.313
<v Szymon Kokot>So, first of all, the predetermined attendance, what is the dispatch that you are receiving, but, soon enough, you have to understand that whatever you are applying, uh, you need to balance by organizing some form of water supply in urban areas.

00:28:46.313 --> 00:28:47.722
<v Szymon Kokot>That's usually hydrants.

00:28:49.147 --> 00:29:05.173
<v Szymon Kokot>In most cases, maybe, unless there's a really huge, problematic fire, and they should be able to provide you enough of water supply, or you can, call additional, resources if you can, because you compare Warsaw when, where there's 17.

00:29:05.513 --> 00:29:06.498
<v Szymon Kokot>Fire stations.

00:29:06.528 --> 00:29:18.198
<v Szymon Kokot>Plus the school to Nidzica where I serve was one fire station, plus not so many volunteer fire brigades, which are usually not available entirely during daytime because people are at work.

00:29:18.711 --> 00:29:20.433
<v Szymon Kokot>so there's, there's huge differences.

00:29:20.528 --> 00:29:22.117
<v Szymon Kokot>but, also if, if you don't.

00:29:22.344 --> 00:29:25.048
<v Szymon Kokot>Put enough effort into training of firefighters.

00:29:25.198 --> 00:29:32.617
<v Szymon Kokot>Their effectiveness of firefighting can be as, different as between 10% and a hundred percent, which is tenfold.

00:29:33.248 --> 00:29:40.661
<v Szymon Kokot>Now, if you are interested in any kind of assessment of risk or efficiency, a tenfold difference is like worlds.

00:29:41.540 --> 00:29:42.740
<v Szymon Kokot>So training is crucial.

00:29:42.740 --> 00:29:50.480
<v Szymon Kokot>We have to train people and again, we really need to feed them with signs because otherwise they don't understand why they are doing things.

00:29:50.810 --> 00:29:53.840
<v Szymon Kokot>And it's been in, in, uh, 1866.

00:29:53.840 --> 00:30:00.560
<v Szymon Kokot>I think that James Braidwood the first commander of a metropolitan fire brigade in.

00:30:01.476 --> 00:30:14.628
<v Szymon Kokot>He wrote a book where he explicitly mentioned that he's not only teaching guys what to do and how to do, but first of all, why they are doing this because if they understand why they will find what and how.

00:30:15.057 --> 00:30:25.814
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I have another one to go deeper on this conversation, on the firefighting, work during the fire to, what extent the work would be different.

00:30:25.814 --> 00:30:27.614
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>when the building is, is different.

00:30:27.614 --> 00:30:31.426
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, let's imagine you have a taller building.

00:30:31.426 --> 00:30:31.787
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You have a.

00:30:32.223 --> 00:30:32.914
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Kira park.

00:30:33.575 --> 00:30:42.402
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, we have this conversations, especially related to timber in fire, where we eventually concluded that, the building must be the fire must be put out at some point.

00:30:42.912 --> 00:30:53.858
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then we all in do the lifting a field that if you have a two story building, that's a completely different, fire to attend than a fire on the top of a 30 story building.

00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:54.891
<v Szymon Kokot>Oh, absolutely.

00:30:54.930 --> 00:31:06.733
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and like, to what extent this difficulties for you rise with the increase of complexity of the building is diagonal twice harder or 10 times harder.

00:31:06.733 --> 00:31:07.273
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If we can.

00:31:07.968 --> 00:31:13.667
<v Szymon Kokot>it's not easy to, let's say put it in simple terms like this, but I can elaborate a little bit.

00:31:14.031 --> 00:31:15.530
<v Szymon Kokot>there's a great friend that I had.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:26.651
<v Szymon Kokot>Whose name is John Chubb, and he's a fire officer, operationally training fire officer in Dublin fire brigade, Ireland, probably 36 or seven years of service.

00:31:26.681 --> 00:31:31.509
<v Szymon Kokot>Very, very knowledgeable, very experienced, very humble person, a great mentor for me.

00:31:31.509 --> 00:31:49.816
<v Szymon Kokot>and he's established a fantastic, program on, uh, let's say, fighting fires in the beginning, let's say the, intention was in tall buildings or high rise buildings, but he sort of broadened it to complex buildings, , because the buildings does not have to necessarily be tall.

00:31:49.965 --> 00:31:53.425
<v Szymon Kokot>It can be huge, have a huge floor plan.

00:31:53.425 --> 00:31:59.336
<v Szymon Kokot>And it's already a difference for us that time or the F.

00:31:59.665 --> 00:32:08.513
<v Szymon Kokot>that we need to dedicate to travel from the arrival spot to the spot where we can start operating.

00:32:09.080 --> 00:32:14.361
<v Szymon Kokot>It doesn't have to be up, but op is more difficult because also water doesn't travel up well.

00:32:15.478 --> 00:32:19.708
<v Szymon Kokot>if it's far, then we get kinks and bends in the hose lines.

00:32:19.738 --> 00:32:21.057
<v Szymon Kokot>This is the pressure loss.

00:32:21.087 --> 00:32:24.830
<v Szymon Kokot>Then we ended up with less flow, transportation on.

00:32:25.580 --> 00:32:35.147
<v Szymon Kokot>of the equipment, which is usually heavy, I mean, modern fire-fighting gears is 20 plus kilograms and it, the wild protecting from heat.

00:32:35.178 --> 00:32:38.117
<v Szymon Kokot>It also protects you from cooling down by sweating.

00:32:38.508 --> 00:32:42.377
<v Szymon Kokot>So there are studies including a.

00:32:42.377 --> 00:32:45.008
<v Szymon Kokot>UL FSRI, but also with the other.

00:32:45.047 --> 00:32:57.760
<v Szymon Kokot>organizations or institutions from us, that identified that if you are doing simple things, in your turnout gear, you tend to overheat, you don't necessarily have to be in Haute gasses.

00:32:58.211 --> 00:33:01.057
<v Szymon Kokot>It is by, minimizing your ability to sweat the.

00:33:02.393 --> 00:33:05.512
<v Szymon Kokot>Because you're covered with a number of layers of, of your gear.

00:33:05.752 --> 00:33:13.192
<v Szymon Kokot>So if you make this longer before, you're actually able to start your firefighting effectively firefighting operation.

00:33:13.553 --> 00:33:15.682
<v Szymon Kokot>That means you get more fatigued.

00:33:16.073 --> 00:33:25.566
<v Szymon Kokot>There's an average saying that if you're a firefighter travels, 18 stories, they, they need a major rest because they, before they can undertake any other operation.

00:33:25.796 --> 00:33:41.324
<v Szymon Kokot>so by proper, perhaps you can translate that to another kind of distance, not necessarily vertical, but horizontal or instead of that, you, you get a, a similar and their genetic effort by having to carry more weight over a shorter distance of time.

00:33:41.773 --> 00:33:56.753
<v Szymon Kokot>So by, but, but basically a couple minutes of, strain let's say, or really, intensive, physical activity really devoids you have majority of your strength and imagine this is how you feel when you finish like a, one kilometer.

00:33:57.683 --> 00:34:03.018
<v Szymon Kokot>And exactly this is when your task is to enter a burning compartment and rescue people, and

00:34:03.028 --> 00:34:04.618
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, this is when your job starts is you

00:34:04.907 --> 00:34:05.928
<v Szymon Kokot>actually starts, Yeah.

00:34:05.928 --> 00:34:10.914
<v Szymon Kokot>you just arrived, but then you traveled, you get your ass kicked by, the gear that you are carrying.

00:34:10.914 --> 00:34:12.871
<v Szymon Kokot>And then only then you have to do this.

00:34:13.021 --> 00:34:20.681
<v Szymon Kokot>So another branch of science, which is ergonomics or human physiology, we have to understand as commanders that if we work our people to.

00:34:21.556 --> 00:34:23.356
<v Szymon Kokot>Uh, they will be no, no effect.

00:34:23.385 --> 00:34:31.193
<v Szymon Kokot>And also if we can create the problem for ourselves where one, the firefighter is suffering from, let's say some, cards of, health problems.

00:34:31.643 --> 00:34:34.072
<v Szymon Kokot>Uh, recently I had a twisted.

00:34:34.849 --> 00:34:41.088
<v Szymon Kokot>The guy was not only not able to help in the intervention, but he needed the assistance of another firefighter.

00:34:41.088 --> 00:34:45.168
<v Szymon Kokot>Because at that time there were no ambulances available.

00:34:45.342 --> 00:34:47.853
<v Szymon Kokot>and from the pain he was losing his consciousness.

00:34:48.063 --> 00:34:50.992
<v Szymon Kokot>His oxygen saturation was going down.

00:34:51.083 --> 00:34:54.472
<v Szymon Kokot>So not only I didn't have one firefighter, but I didn't have another.

00:34:54.952 --> 00:34:59.333
<v Szymon Kokot>In my very limited staffing, I did not have another who attended to the first one.

00:34:59.693 --> 00:35:04.085
<v Szymon Kokot>And also in the heads of the remaining ones, there was a, a ringing bell.

00:35:04.235 --> 00:35:05.916
<v Szymon Kokot>Something happened to our colleague.

00:35:06.054 --> 00:35:10.838
<v Szymon Kokot>we are human beings, you know, stress, uh, taxes, uh, whether we are trained or not.

00:35:11.161 --> 00:35:11.681
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>makes sense.

00:35:11.831 --> 00:35:23.282
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What we all intuitively feel that the larger, the ability of the building, the taller, the building, the more capable it should be, um, uh, sustaining itself from the fire, like a.

00:35:24.126 --> 00:35:34.153
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, I, I understand if you, if you have a super tall building, like , really tall, like 200 meter tall, there is very limited stuff you can do in that building.

00:35:34.153 --> 00:35:42.193
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like, okay, if you have a firefighters elevator, you probably can enter the, top floor, but still you're limited with the amount of gear you can transport.

00:35:42.523 --> 00:35:45.733
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You're limited to the building, supporting you with water.

00:35:46.034 --> 00:35:53.371
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You're limited to the, um, Building safeguarding your entrance point to a compartment, to the ventilated lobby or something.

00:35:53.762 --> 00:36:00.798
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So truly, a lot, a lot is on the building, you know, to, to survive the fire and, not.

00:36:00.798 --> 00:36:04.489
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>only survive, but also to limit the damage and the loss and casualties.

00:36:05.068 --> 00:36:05.458
<v Szymon Kokot>So.

00:36:05.458 --> 00:36:07.918
<v Szymon Kokot>here I go, here I go again to my motto.

00:36:07.918 --> 00:36:10.288
<v Szymon Kokot>Nobody builds nothing with a certainty.

00:36:10.288 --> 00:36:11.188
<v Szymon Kokot>It will catch fire.

00:36:11.217 --> 00:36:12.297
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, nobody wants it.

00:36:12.327 --> 00:36:13.902
<v Szymon Kokot>That's for me, Understood.

00:36:13.931 --> 00:36:16.782
<v Szymon Kokot>But nobody really thinks about firefighters.

00:36:16.782 --> 00:36:18.431
<v Szymon Kokot>We're not a major group of people.

00:36:18.672 --> 00:36:23.411
<v Szymon Kokot>So I have this very sad and the pessimistic saying we have no allies.

00:36:23.831 --> 00:36:33.072
<v Szymon Kokot>Well, actually we do have a little bit of allies in the, in the construction world,  um, you, mentioned a very interesting case of a tall building in toll building.

00:36:33.117 --> 00:36:35.168
<v Szymon Kokot>you, have to always consider the.

00:36:36.123 --> 00:36:39.693
<v Szymon Kokot>Always because it's always a factor in tall building.

00:36:39.842 --> 00:36:44.213
<v Szymon Kokot>You have probably, , greater probability of, , encountering open plan.

00:36:44.422 --> 00:36:54.112
<v Szymon Kokot>So a traveling fire instead of compartment fire starting from one to another, when you use the elevator, because sometimes you can, you have to account for the piston effect.

00:36:54.443 --> 00:36:57.443
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, it's a vertical, sharp going throughout the entire building.

00:36:57.623 --> 00:36:58.492
<v Szymon Kokot>If you start moving.

00:36:58.963 --> 00:37:05.271
<v Szymon Kokot>your whatever it's called, like a piston, I'd say, I think, you will either suck in the smoke or push out the smoke.

00:37:05.271 --> 00:37:10.371
<v Szymon Kokot>So you can only travel a number of floors at the time, like two or three and see what's going on.

00:37:10.786 --> 00:37:17.807
<v Szymon Kokot>so yes, totally I would prefer if I could blindly, trust that the building is going to behave.

00:37:18.922 --> 00:37:20.333
<v Szymon Kokot>Well, is it going to behave?

00:37:20.362 --> 00:37:20.963
<v Szymon Kokot>I'm not sure.

00:37:20.963 --> 00:37:33.735
<v Szymon Kokot>So we always leave a, a margin, for, let's say unexpected, or maybe we should not call unexpected, not, according to the scenario, we should be expecting anything, even the less probable things.

00:37:34.188 --> 00:37:37.963
<v Szymon Kokot>but also the building should, not be too complex so that we.

00:37:38.782 --> 00:37:40.822
<v Szymon Kokot>Let's say operate the features of the building.

00:37:40.822 --> 00:38:03.922
<v Szymon Kokot>So like heating ventilation and the AC systems should not get in our way or should be easily overdriven by the fire commander in the lobby so that we don't have to get unexpected opening of the, of the, window behind the firefighters while wind is blowing into the window on the opposite side, because then we create the blowtorch effect and so on.

00:38:04.402 --> 00:38:07.072
<v Szymon Kokot>So yeah, I mean, complex buildings are really challenging.

00:38:07.545 --> 00:38:11.773
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And do you think that commander not notice, you mentioned a very complex building.

00:38:11.773 --> 00:38:14.233
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You think the commander is fit to combat.

00:38:14.730 --> 00:38:15.210
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>the building.

00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.202
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think there are a lot, of work has to be done before the fire.

00:38:18.532 --> 00:38:25.809
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>like if you're a commander, you should know your region, you should know your buildings I know I am involved in commissioning buildings.

00:38:26.230 --> 00:38:30.400
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I am there when we are delivering the end of the fire safety projects.

00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:32.440
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We're starting up the smoke control.

00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:39.400
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We starting up fire detection, I know how complicated these things are, And even though I were there at the design phase, it takes me.

00:38:40.204 --> 00:38:48.184
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Time to, you know, get familiar with the particular system design, in this building delivered in this building is not, it's not like on off button.

00:38:48.195 --> 00:38:52.385
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a complicated control panel with a very confusing names on it.

00:38:52.385 --> 00:38:55.577
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, sometimes the commander might have quite a difficult time.

00:38:55.907 --> 00:39:06.697
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe it's a, it's a thing that we're where we, as engineers could improve instead of designing more fancy systems design systems that are more approachable, more.

00:39:07.483 --> 00:39:11.682
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Easy to operate easier to understand that that would be a thing

00:39:11.778 --> 00:39:13.309
<v Szymon Kokot>you could, that would be wonderful.

00:39:13.309 --> 00:39:21.739
<v Szymon Kokot>I was not aware that we can have such a fancy wish, but look, you're asking me if the commander is ready.

00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:25.009
<v Szymon Kokot>Well, I can certainly say that the that the institution.

00:39:25.759 --> 00:39:31.762
<v Szymon Kokot>Has all the features necessary to make it happen, but there's a fluctuation or what's it called?

00:39:31.762 --> 00:39:34.643
<v Szymon Kokot>Like, like change of personnel it happening.

00:39:34.853 --> 00:39:49.206
<v Szymon Kokot>So there may be probability that a given commander by chance by simple fate is currently on duty when something major happens and he, or she may not be entirely.

00:39:49.398 --> 00:39:52.878
<v Szymon Kokot>understanding of what's going on and what needs to be done.

00:39:52.909 --> 00:39:54.829
<v Szymon Kokot>There is certainly such a possibility.

00:39:54.978 --> 00:39:56.956
<v Szymon Kokot>So if we could either connect the word.

00:39:57.411 --> 00:39:59.393
<v Szymon Kokot>and as you say, you commissioned the building.

00:39:59.603 --> 00:40:04.402
<v Szymon Kokot>Normally you have a prevention officer on site randomly on this stage.

00:40:04.432 --> 00:40:06.443
<v Szymon Kokot>Probably you have operational commanders.

00:40:06.713 --> 00:40:16.697
<v Szymon Kokot>If they are there there's one person or two people or three, while there's a whole battalion of firefighters that actually will engage in firefighting in that building.

00:40:16.719 --> 00:40:18.219
<v Szymon Kokot>but then it's on our side.

00:40:18.398 --> 00:40:21.356
<v Szymon Kokot>How we, how we create our, training and also.

00:40:21.554 --> 00:40:26.293
<v Szymon Kokot>what we say, maintenance of competencies or, or lifelong education

00:40:26.623 --> 00:40:41.344
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And for us, the fire engineers, like from your perspective, Which parts of what we design are the most important, like compartmentation and the suppression detection, ventilation, probably all are important.

00:40:41.344 --> 00:40:44.034
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But how do you view this, these tools?

00:40:44.034 --> 00:40:47.094
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because we often are, you know, burdened with the design, the system.

00:40:47.094 --> 00:40:48.264
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So they have firefighters.

00:40:48.554 --> 00:40:49.974
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't know how they want help.

00:40:50.094 --> 00:40:51.594
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So how can I design that?

00:40:51.811 --> 00:40:52.231
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:58.590
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, for us, it would be most beneficial if the building, uh, behaved like it should.

00:40:58.891 --> 00:41:05.550
<v Szymon Kokot>So compartmentation by saying this, I do not only mean walls, but also let's say windows on the upper floors.

00:41:05.896 --> 00:41:06.585
<v Szymon Kokot>That's one thing.

00:41:06.867 --> 00:41:09.958
<v Szymon Kokot>secondly, because we know that it's not a switch anymore.

00:41:10.018 --> 00:41:10.708
<v Szymon Kokot>It's done.

00:41:10.829 --> 00:41:15.599
<v Szymon Kokot>We only have synthetic fuels in inside buildings, so there's great heat release.

00:41:15.628 --> 00:41:25.617
<v Szymon Kokot>But as we know, from the Thornton's law, which is over a hundred years old,  the amount of heat is, relative to the oxygen that is provided to the, uh, to the combustion process.

00:41:25.617 --> 00:41:33.128
<v Szymon Kokot>So we would like to be able to, trust entirely entirely, I mean like blind trust, blindly trust that the building will behave.

00:41:33.398 --> 00:41:37.088
<v Szymon Kokot>And also that some of the features that are designed will not.

00:41:37.431 --> 00:41:38.869
<v Szymon Kokot>Cause any surprise.

00:41:38.869 --> 00:41:43.519
<v Szymon Kokot>So for example, the HVAC systems will not start opening, you know, the building up.

00:41:43.519 --> 00:41:49.275
<v Szymon Kokot>So because what I understand, I mean, my look at the evacuation is currently as such.

00:41:49.545 --> 00:41:52.936
<v Szymon Kokot>We will do anything with the building.

00:41:53.760 --> 00:41:58.201
<v Szymon Kokot>That will aid evacuation, even if it means that the building will be lost.

00:41:58.231 --> 00:42:02.340
<v Szymon Kokot>If we rescue all the people, but lose the building, it is still a good outcome.

00:42:02.641 --> 00:42:08.221
<v Szymon Kokot>Therefore, we will open up a lot in the, in the early phase because in the early phases where the people get out.

00:42:08.221 --> 00:42:15.585
<v Szymon Kokot>So we don't want to obscure their evacuation routes, but for firefighters appearing soon on the scene, it creates another problem.

00:42:15.614 --> 00:42:16.844
<v Szymon Kokot>It's a well ventilated.

00:42:17.909 --> 00:42:30.592
<v Szymon Kokot>When we start closing it down, the amount of heat that was produced will start creating pyrolysis gases, which which will obscure, which will travel, which can, which can cause violent, or very dynamic, fire phenomenon as.

00:42:31.478 --> 00:42:34.418
<v Szymon Kokot>Well, that's okay at the cost of saving people.

00:42:34.418 --> 00:42:34.927
<v Szymon Kokot>That's okay.

00:42:34.927 --> 00:42:46.070
<v Szymon Kokot>If we lose the building, or by the benefit of saving people, we can lose the building, but we would like to have the ability of then have full, entire control over the building.

00:42:46.170 --> 00:42:49.221
<v Szymon Kokot>The problem is that we're also human beings.

00:42:49.221 --> 00:42:55.610
<v Szymon Kokot>If the building is, as You mentioned, 200 meters tall, it has like sections, floors, whatever other kind of stuff.

00:42:55.911 --> 00:42:59.471
<v Szymon Kokot>Uh, maybe sometimes to to just grasp it with your mind.

00:42:59.471 --> 00:43:04.800
<v Szymon Kokot>And then while keeping in mind, the, the air, the water, , the, wherever your people are committed.

00:43:04.851 --> 00:43:06.021
<v Szymon Kokot>what's your communication?

00:43:06.201 --> 00:43:07.971
<v Szymon Kokot>You know, the, the press officer is calling.

00:43:08.411 --> 00:43:09.340
<v Szymon Kokot>That's not bad.

00:43:09.340 --> 00:43:12.990
<v Szymon Kokot>If your fire chief is calling, that's another stressor, , and so on.

00:43:12.990 --> 00:43:15.481
<v Szymon Kokot>And so on, you know, the public is, is going.

00:43:15.481 --> 00:43:19.371
<v Szymon Kokot>Maybe you need to, remove the public, goes the glass starting falling.

00:43:19.371 --> 00:43:20.960
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, all sorts of things can happen.

00:43:21.351 --> 00:43:26.030
<v Szymon Kokot>I had a fire recently where there was a flat tire, there was a twisted ankle.

00:43:26.030 --> 00:43:27.990
<v Szymon Kokot>There was lack of, ambulances.

00:43:27.990 --> 00:43:30.668
<v Szymon Kokot>Uh, I couldn't find police to block the road.

00:43:30.668 --> 00:43:31.797
<v Szymon Kokot>there was a collision.

00:43:32.182 --> 00:43:33.023
<v Szymon Kokot>because of that.

00:43:33.052 --> 00:43:35.123
<v Szymon Kokot>And I said, oh, oh my goodness.

00:43:35.152 --> 00:43:40.432
<v Szymon Kokot>I mean, I feel like in Egypt where there were the plagues, you know, first the frogs then the, whatever.

00:43:41.873 --> 00:43:47.326
<v Szymon Kokot>I don't even remember what they were, but it was like, epic, epic, you know, series of Ms.

00:43:47.326 --> 00:43:47.835
<v Szymon Kokot>Happenings.

00:43:48.465 --> 00:43:50.206
<v Szymon Kokot>And it was a great test for me.

00:43:50.552 --> 00:43:51.603
<v Szymon Kokot>And it was a great test for me.

00:43:51.753 --> 00:43:53.583
<v Szymon Kokot>We rescued the people's property.

00:43:53.583 --> 00:43:56.873
<v Szymon Kokot>What, what burned down was a the abandoned building.

00:43:56.932 --> 00:43:59.302
<v Szymon Kokot>So I immediately said, I'm surrendering this.

00:43:59.302 --> 00:44:05.842
<v Szymon Kokot>We need to switch and go and protect because there was the, the wind was blowing really, really like sideways.

00:44:05.873 --> 00:44:13.043
<v Szymon Kokot>If there was rain, it would be falling, not vertically, but horizontally, there was such a wind and the grass was a dry and the.

00:44:13.445 --> 00:44:23.650
<v Szymon Kokot>was a very poorly maintained, area with lots of, wild, um, wild, dry, vegetation, some, some heaps of, thrash and so on.

00:44:23.650 --> 00:44:28.525
<v Szymon Kokot>And then immediately after there was residential buildings, which were, which were threatened by the fire.

00:44:28.525 --> 00:44:29.164
<v Szymon Kokot>So, yeah.

00:44:29.460 --> 00:44:29.760
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:44:30.150 --> 00:44:32.550
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Uh, it's, it's sad, but we have to wrap it up.

00:44:33.010 --> 00:44:41.550
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So maybe you have some sort of a message to the fire engineers and from a firefighter, like how can we best help you?

00:44:41.550 --> 00:44:44.911
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Or maybe you have a message to firefighters to, to learn more fire science.

00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:45.710
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What did you?

00:44:45.989 --> 00:44:47.309
<v Szymon Kokot>Oh, yeah.

00:44:47.670 --> 00:44:49.143
<v Szymon Kokot>I just made the two points.

00:44:49.143 --> 00:44:53.222
<v Szymon Kokot>I will, I would love to be able to read a briefly touch on them.

00:44:53.793 --> 00:45:03.782
<v Szymon Kokot>One is that we are called CFBT which was historically because of the English style that was used for firefighters, teaching other firefighters, how to fight fights.

00:45:03.813 --> 00:45:06.362
<v Szymon Kokot>It was called Compartment Fire Behavior Training.

00:45:06.693 --> 00:45:11.472
<v Szymon Kokot>We recently started calling ourselves CFBT Critical Fire Behavior Training.

00:45:11.623 --> 00:45:15.043
<v Szymon Kokot>There's a lot more to learn about fire than just the compartment.

00:45:15.043 --> 00:45:20.789
<v Szymon Kokot>So to my firefighters, every firefighter, my message is, do not limit your point of view to a compartment.

00:45:21.150 --> 00:45:27.152
<v Szymon Kokot>Uh, fire, is a way more, complex phenomenon or, undertaking that you would be encountered with.

00:45:27.813 --> 00:45:29.943
<v Szymon Kokot>And second thing is I was, I am.

00:45:30.672 --> 00:45:32.052
<v Szymon Kokot>I was part of the events.

00:45:32.052 --> 00:45:37.273
<v Szymon Kokot>I feel like a part of this group, which is called IFI w the international fire instructors workshop.

00:45:37.753 --> 00:45:41.052
<v Szymon Kokot>It was started by Stefan Svensson professors.

00:45:41.052 --> 00:45:42.943
<v Szymon Kokot>Svensson whom I admire greatly.

00:45:42.943 --> 00:45:49.822
<v Szymon Kokot>And I have the great privilege to call him my friend And he decided in 2008 that he will bring together, scientists and practice.

00:45:50.922 --> 00:46:02.112
<v Szymon Kokot>And out of that, there was created a great, a great, let's say movement of firefighters, wanting to know more about science and scientists wanting to know more about practice.

00:46:02.413 --> 00:46:11.293
<v Szymon Kokot>We had Steve Kerber attending ed Hart in Paul Greenwood, Shaundra fell John MacDonald, Michael Raig the creator of the smoker, and he is a great guy.

00:46:11.652 --> 00:46:13.182
<v Szymon Kokot>uh, to invite to your podcast.

00:46:13.182 --> 00:46:14.802
<v Szymon Kokot>He's a, he's a PhD on.

00:46:15.487 --> 00:46:19.851
<v Szymon Kokot>Fire science and he's the creator of the portable device used by firefighters.

00:46:20.240 --> 00:46:27.452
<v Szymon Kokot>and I would love to see more discussion between the two sides, because actually the reality is in the middle It's on neither sides.

00:46:27.465 --> 00:46:32.355
<v Szymon Kokot>And, if, mm, yeah, basically there's, there was another thought, but I really talked too much, so.

00:46:33.246 --> 00:46:33.936
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, you do.

00:46:34.385 --> 00:46:39.440
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think, we need to understand how to Help firefighters.

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:40.699
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we are also in this.

00:46:40.699 --> 00:46:46.730
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>difficult place where many of our decisions must be communicated to stakeholders.

00:46:46.730 --> 00:46:50.150
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like eventually someone has to pay for them for all the solutions.

00:46:50.150 --> 00:46:59.179
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So understanding how we help firefighters and or how our business affects your business, which is our business too.

00:46:59.449 --> 00:47:01.369
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It helps us, you know, a.

00:47:02.505 --> 00:47:08.864
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Advocate for some things that can really, um, help build safety.

00:47:08.864 --> 00:47:19.181
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and I think this, this mutual understanding is beneficial to both parties And it's essential to eventually have, something we could call a fire safe world.

00:47:19.721 --> 00:47:22.451
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, uh, I hope we can achieve that one day.

00:47:22.530 --> 00:47:22.920
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:47:22.920 --> 00:47:35.130
<v Szymon Kokot>And Wojciech there's a great example of you and me working together because you're opening a possibility for me to join your, your research and conduct some of my own experiments for my own PhD.

00:47:35.340 --> 00:47:37.380
<v Szymon Kokot>My concern is firefighter safety.

00:47:37.570 --> 00:47:38.199
<v Szymon Kokot>The effect of.

00:47:38.248 --> 00:47:46.088
<v Szymon Kokot>, thermal radiation on firefighters, which I'm sincerely hoping to achieve this year with your tremendous help, critical help.

00:47:46.538 --> 00:47:51.188
<v Szymon Kokot>Um, because you're providing me with the possibility of doing this in your facilities.

00:47:51.427 --> 00:48:03.637
<v Szymon Kokot>So I think this is, this is the way to go and, forever firefighter, if they want to really develop as a profession, Yeah, sooner or later, they have to engage in the vast ocean of scientific knowledge.

00:48:03.646 --> 00:48:04.126
<v Szymon Kokot>There's there.

00:48:04.126 --> 00:48:04.996
<v Szymon Kokot>Isn't another way

00:48:05.632 --> 00:48:13.523
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we're very happy to learn from you about the compartment fires and corridor firefighting tactics, which will greatly enhance our experiments.

00:48:13.552 --> 00:48:14.483
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's a great synergy.

00:48:14.483 --> 00:48:19.282
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And to actually, uh, once, once it's done, you'll be back here in the seat and we'll talk it.

00:48:19.282 --> 00:48:21.262
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>over in the, in the public as well.

00:48:21.682 --> 00:48:24.262
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Szymon thank you very much for your time.

00:48:24.592 --> 00:48:25.733
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Keep doing what you're doing.

00:48:25.733 --> 00:48:27.617
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's great and much appreciated

00:48:27.760 --> 00:48:28.239
<v Szymon Kokot>Thanks.

00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:31.269
<v Szymon Kokot>Thanks Wojciech this is a great honor for me.

00:48:31.269 --> 00:48:36.699
<v Szymon Kokot>I really enjoy being here after all these great minds and probably also before these grains minds.

00:48:36.699 --> 00:48:39.820
<v Szymon Kokot>And I will just say one more thing, a five star review.

00:48:41.442 --> 00:48:42.012
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thanks man.

00:48:42.231 --> 00:48:43.211
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You're amazing guy.

00:48:43.382 --> 00:48:45.101
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I need to get you more in here.

00:48:45.192 --> 00:48:45.851
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You're already good

00:48:45.969 --> 00:48:46.269
<v Szymon Kokot>Yeah.

00:48:46.269 --> 00:48:47.039
<v Szymon Kokot>Well provide it.

00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:50.110
<v Szymon Kokot>If it works, I'm happy to be there often, you know?

00:48:50.141 --> 00:48:50.532
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:48:50.592 --> 00:48:51.101
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thanks John.

00:48:51.309 --> 00:48:51.849
<v Szymon Kokot>Thanks man.

00:48:51.940 --> 00:48:52.360
<v Szymon Kokot>Cheers.

00:48:52.876 --> 00:48:53.387
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's it.

00:48:53.387 --> 00:48:53.717
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you.

00:48:53.717 --> 00:48:56.027
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Szymon I hope you also left a five-star review.

00:48:56.416 --> 00:48:56.657
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Man.

00:48:56.686 --> 00:48:57.646
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's so funny.

00:48:57.976 --> 00:49:00.347
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And the guests do the job for you.

00:49:00.347 --> 00:49:02.387
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it's kind of awkward sometimes.

00:49:02.402 --> 00:49:03.663
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>to do this call for action.

00:49:03.753 --> 00:49:05.193
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So yeah, I appreciate that.

00:49:05.262 --> 00:49:06.543
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Szymon lead it thrice.

00:49:06.572 --> 00:49:09.302
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I expect at tsunami of five-star reviews.

00:49:09.318 --> 00:49:11.472
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>For the podcast after this episode airs.

00:49:11.952 --> 00:49:12.492
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Regardless.

00:49:12.523 --> 00:49:15.012
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope this was interesting to you.

00:49:15.103 --> 00:49:16.992
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope it was eyeopening to you.

00:49:17.503 --> 00:49:21.103
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Have you figured out what are his first thoughts?

00:49:21.643 --> 00:49:22.452
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Commands.

00:49:23.023 --> 00:49:23.983
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Air supply.

00:49:24.643 --> 00:49:25.603
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Ergonomics.

00:49:25.992 --> 00:49:27.619
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How far can one, the walk.

00:49:27.954 --> 00:49:36.027
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>this is something I've never really thought when designing, building, It was not just things that would occupy my mind.

00:49:36.056 --> 00:49:40.286
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I mean, We're not thought that, and I think it's important to know.

00:49:40.742 --> 00:49:42.327
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not that we can design the building.

00:49:42.327 --> 00:49:49.217
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So they have lesser distances for walking or, that we provide them breathing a pirate just on the side.

00:49:49.666 --> 00:49:50.686
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not the point.

00:49:50.686 --> 00:49:54.527
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The point is it truly is the challenge is.

00:49:55.186 --> 00:49:58.786
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Exponentially higher when the building is large.

00:49:59.237 --> 00:50:00.467
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's the second thing, did you notice?

00:50:00.737 --> 00:50:01.996
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He didn't say tall.

00:50:01.996 --> 00:50:02.896
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He said large.

00:50:03.317 --> 00:50:08.206
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It doesn't matter if the building is not very tall when, when horizontal distances are so vast.

00:50:08.206 --> 00:50:16.157
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's another thing, you know, we regulate usually based on the number of floors of the height of the building and for some.

00:50:16.427 --> 00:50:17.297
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>certain heights.

00:50:17.297 --> 00:50:19.246
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We don't care that much for some heights.

00:50:19.757 --> 00:50:20.746
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We do care a lot.

00:50:20.777 --> 00:50:24.766
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And then we have this land scraper type of buildings.

00:50:25.157 --> 00:50:28.157
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Which are generally huge complex mazes.

00:50:28.592 --> 00:50:31.052
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In which operations will be difficult.

00:50:31.623 --> 00:50:36.543
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think this ramp up of difficulty is something we really need to consider.

00:50:36.552 --> 00:50:39.913
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When designing safety off the building, there's no way around that.

00:50:40.452 --> 00:50:43.753
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And thank you Szymon that was very refreshing to me.

00:50:43.753 --> 00:50:49.362
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I hope we can go further with that because I think we're on a great path to.

00:50:49.409 --> 00:50:55.110
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Create a sustainable world of communication between firefighters and fire engineers.

00:50:55.110 --> 00:51:02.130
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I would really like this podcast to become a venue where such a communication can safely cure.

00:51:02.596 --> 00:51:04.936
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, I think that it for today's episode.

00:51:04.936 --> 00:51:06.255
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope you've enjoyed it.

00:51:06.646 --> 00:51:12.255
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And like Szymon said, The review, he's a commander, you know, don't, don't mess with him.

00:51:12.757 --> 00:51:13.260
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>but on.

00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:14.130
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>No worry.

00:51:14.429 --> 00:51:18.119
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I appreciate you all for just listening and being here with me every week.

00:51:18.179 --> 00:51:20.550
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I hope to see you here next week.

00:51:20.610 --> 00:51:21.750
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Another Wednesday.

00:51:22.409 --> 00:51:23.639
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Another great episode.

00:51:23.789 --> 00:51:25.110
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>See you there she is.