328 | When They Want It Left Just the Way It Was - Permanence Response in CCPT

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I'm answering a question from Nicole in Orlando.

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Shout out to my native Floridian girl.

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I don't know if you're a native,

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but you at least live in Florida.

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So exciting to hear that there are some

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more play therapists around here in our little

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dangling peninsula

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and

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I'm excited about this question.

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Nicole wrote in about

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when a child wants things to stay the same

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after the session is over,

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meaning they've created something or they hid

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something or they worked on something,

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and they want it to be exactly like that when they come back.

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And how to handle that.

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So this is a really helpful scenario.

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Thank you,

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Nicole,

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for emailing in.

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And

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by the way,

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this is just a little anecdote.

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When I started my practice in 2005,

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I was in Pinellas County at the time,

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which

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that means nothing to most of you,

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I'm sure,

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but it's where Clearwater Beach lives.

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So if you've heard of or been to Clearwater Beach,

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that is in Pinellas County.

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That is my county of origin.

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That's where I grew up.

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And

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in Pinellas County,

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there were a million people at the time in that county.

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And I was the only play therapist in the whole county in 2005.

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In a million people.

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I was the only one.

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So it makes my heart happy

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that there are more play therapists in Florida now,

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and

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I'm so glad that

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we have a presence

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in

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Florida,

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in Pinellas in Pasco,

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the tri-county area,

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the,

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the Tampa Bay area.

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There are so many more play therapists now.

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And so that is something that I've seen grow and change over time.

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And it's exciting to see that and I know many of you have said that where you live,

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there are more play therapists than there used to be.

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So we're,

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we're tackling the mental health of kids one play therapist at a time,

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and I'm pleased with that.

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OK,

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so let me read parts of this email to you and then we will dive in.

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We have a room at the center called the kids' room.

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It does not meet the requirements to be formally called a playroom,

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but we alternate using with our younger clients.

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There is a box of Legos.

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Inside the box were instructions for how to use

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the Legos to assemble different objects like a fish,

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a flamingo,

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and a house.

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My client spent most of the session making all of the

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objects listed on the instruction packet and was very proud.

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He's an eight year old boy who came in with existing diagnoses of ODD and ADHD,

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probably

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unwarranted,

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but.

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They're,

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they're there

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in and of itself.

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I cleaned up the room after the session,

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proceeded to disassemble all the items he had made,

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put them back in the box.

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When the client came back the following week,

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he ran straight to the box

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and began frantically looking for the objects he had previously made.

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He asked me what happened to the items,

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and I reflected,

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You're wondering what happened to the things you made.

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Eventually,

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I explained that this is a shared office and that

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other clinicians and children use the room for their sessions.

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The client was confused and began asking more questions.

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Do you know who is in here?

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Can you tell them not to use the Legos next time?

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And so on.

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I told him this is part of our sharing.

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This is part of our sharing the space that every

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child gets to use the toys like he does.

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He spent the remainder of the session remaking

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all of the objects that he had previously made

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and attempted to hide them in the room so they would remain intact for the next time.

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Knowing we have a small supply of Legos and that

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most of them were used to make the objects,

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I knew that I couldn't allow the pieces to remain hidden for a

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week and not allow my colleagues to use them with their clients.

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I attempted to use choice giving by saying,

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if you choose to hide the Legos,

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you choose to be OK if they get found and played with before our next session.

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He chose to continue hiding the Legos and left.

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When he came back next time,

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the same thing happened.

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He went back to the hiding spots,

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frantically looked for the items he had built,

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and asked what happened to them.

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I reminded him when he chose to hide them last week that this was a possibility,

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and I reflected,

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you're frustrated and you're disappointed that the

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Legos weren't how you left them.

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He spent the remainder of the session rebuilding the items again.

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He asked me more questions about who else uses the room.

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Can I ask my colleagues who were also in the office if they know what happened?

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Did I see any other kids using them?

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I tried to reflect that I understand how important it is to him,

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but I didn't have an answer to his questions,

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and I was not going to interrupt other sessions to find out.

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At the end of the session,

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he asked if I could hide his items in the other rooms in the office.

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I told him that we were not going to hide the items again.

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He asked me why,

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and I responded something with,

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Because other kids get to use them when they come here just like you do.

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That answer was not sufficient for him and resulted in more back and forth.

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Eventually I told him that I couldn't promise that his

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Legos wouldn't be used between now and next week,

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and I didn't want him to be disappointed.

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He seemed to understand this and left the session without trying to hide the Legos.

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While my answer was honest,

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I didn't want him to feel disappointed.

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I understand that this was not the best response.

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I'm also wondering how I should respond when my kids ask to make sure that no one

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colors on their page in the coloring book or uses a certain item when they're gone,

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as this has happened previously with other clients.

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There are things I have no control over and cannot guarantee,

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but I'm not sure what would be an appropriate way to say that.

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All right,

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so really helpful scenario,

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especially when it persisted the amount of time that it did.

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So,

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Nicole,

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in this scenario,

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the very first moment that a child

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chooses to request that something stay exactly the same.

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Or they attempt to hide something that they've created

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and they say something along the lines of.

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I'm gonna hide it so that no one touches it and

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then it'll be here when I come back next time,

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or I'm gonna make sure that no one plays with this,

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so I'm gonna put it behind such and such.

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So whenever we have a sense that the child is needing that permanence,

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so let me,

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let me sidetrack for a second.

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When a child wants something exactly the same way,

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when they hide it,

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when they try to conceal it,

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when they bury it,

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when they want it to be exactly where it is,

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there's a permanent need there.

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So if we understand the why,

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often that helps us with our responses.

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He is wanting

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to have predictability

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and constancy,

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and he wants it to be where it is

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likely because there's probably very little in his

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life that is constant and stable and consistent.

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And or it's a need for power and control,

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which might be a related aside.

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But either way,

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he wants it to be predictable.

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And that permanence need is coming up.

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So whenever that

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shows up in a playroom,

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we're going to acknowledge the feeling,

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the need,

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the desire,

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the intention.

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Oh,

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you're wanting to hide that so no one plays with it,

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or you're choosing to put that there hoping that

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no one will touch it before you come back.

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OK,

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so we're going to reflect

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and then we're going to set a neutral expectation.

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It's not a limit,

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it's not even a choice.

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It's just

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an acknowledgement of factual expectation.

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Oh,

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you're really hoping that no one will touch that

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between now and then,

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but you know other kids play in this room.

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And there's where

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we declare what the scenario is.

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You have this hope,

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need,

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desire,

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wish,

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feeling.

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But other kids play in this room.

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And then that sometimes will prompt the same exact questions that you got.

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Well,

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who plays in here?

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Well,

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what do they do?

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Well,

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how old are they?

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Well,

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are they boys or girls?

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Well,

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what are their names?

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Well,

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can you tell them not to?

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Well,

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I don't want anyone to touch this.

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Well,

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blah blah blah.

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So

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you might still get the same response and then you reflect that.

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Mm.

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You really are hoping

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that it's exactly where you left it,

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but other kids come in here and play,

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so you get to see next time if it's still there.

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Or you can choose to check next time you come in and see if it's still there.

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And you're making it clear without actually setting a limit.

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You're making it clear that there is the possibility

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that

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other kids are going to find it,

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move it,

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play with it,

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disassemble it,

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whatever the scenario is.

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Another component of this is when a kid says,

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don't clean this up.

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They're halfway through a marble run build

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or they're halfway through their sand world,

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or they're halfway through something with Lincoln logs.

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And,

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oh,

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maybe that's not an international toy.

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I don't know.

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If you all have no idea what Lincoln logs are,

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they're

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the little cut out wooden pieces that you can stack in certain ways

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to build essentially what looks like log cabins and things like that.

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So

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very

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old school kind of toy.

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They're called Lincoln logs,

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Google search,

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you'll see what I'm talking about.

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So

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they're right mid

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construction of something and they say,

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don't clean this up.

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00:09:18,229 --> 00:09:20,940
Leave this exactly like it is so that I can finish it next week.

273
00:09:21,109 --> 00:09:21,349
OK,

274
00:09:21,390 --> 00:09:22,429
in that scenario,

275
00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:26,979
factual expectation setting that it's not other kids playing there.

276
00:09:27,390 --> 00:09:28,460
In that scenario,

277
00:09:28,549 --> 00:09:29,059
it's,

278
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,659
but you know that I clean up before other kids come in to play.

279
00:09:35,219 --> 00:09:37,130
We're always telling the truth,

280
00:09:37,340 --> 00:09:38,690
age appropriately,

281
00:09:38,979 --> 00:09:41,049
factual expectation setting.

282
00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:43,049
You know other kids come in here,

283
00:09:43,299 --> 00:09:45,849
you know that I clean up in between sessions.

284
00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:46,469
Yeah,

285
00:09:46,580 --> 00:09:49,809
but I really don't want you to clean this up because I really wanna do this next time.

286
00:09:49,859 --> 00:09:50,229
Oh,

287
00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,530
you wish that you could have it exactly like this next time,

288
00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:57,250
but you know that I clean up in between each kid that I play with.

289
00:09:59,260 --> 00:09:59,780
OK,

290
00:09:59,940 --> 00:10:00,549
so

291
00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:03,450
now what you've established

292
00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:05,049
is the expectation.

293
00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:07,190
Then you can still reflect feelings

294
00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:08,539
if they're disappointed,

295
00:10:08,619 --> 00:10:09,700
if they're frustrated,

296
00:10:09,820 --> 00:10:11,010
if they're hopeful,

297
00:10:11,140 --> 00:10:12,659
if whatever's going on emotionally,

298
00:10:12,739 --> 00:10:13,729
you reflect that.

299
00:10:14,609 --> 00:10:15,760
The questions

300
00:10:16,130 --> 00:10:17,479
are means to an end.

301
00:10:17,650 --> 00:10:19,440
All the questions he's asking,

302
00:10:20,090 --> 00:10:23,919
Can you ask who else was in here and did they see other kids using them?

303
00:10:24,369 --> 00:10:24,609
It's,

304
00:10:24,690 --> 00:10:26,880
that's not really what he wants the answers to.

305
00:10:27,669 --> 00:10:29,380
He's trying to ensure

306
00:10:29,929 --> 00:10:34,000
that his stuff's going to be untouched or it's going to be where he left it,

307
00:10:34,289 --> 00:10:37,340
or it's going to be protected from whatever.

308
00:10:37,619 --> 00:10:39,809
So the questions are means to an end.

309
00:10:39,849 --> 00:10:42,119
That's not really what he wants to know.

310
00:10:43,489 --> 00:10:44,679
And so,

311
00:10:44,849 --> 00:10:45,159
oh,

312
00:10:45,169 --> 00:10:46,760
it's really important to you.

313
00:10:47,979 --> 00:10:50,460
That you make sure no one touches that.

314
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,169
You are really wishing

315
00:10:53,340 --> 00:10:56,849
that you could guarantee that would be there when you got back.

316
00:10:58,469 --> 00:11:01,599
So those are the ways that we handle all of the incessant questions.

317
00:11:02,739 --> 00:11:03,409
And

318
00:11:04,159 --> 00:11:07,010
To tweak a little bit about what happened at the end.

319
00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:08,070
So,

320
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,469
you said that you were not going to hide the items again.

321
00:11:11,719 --> 00:11:12,549
That's

322
00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:14,830
no longer adherent to the model.

323
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,109
So he gets to choose whatever he wants to do with his things.

324
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,020
So you're just going to say,

325
00:11:21,109 --> 00:11:21,369
oh,

326
00:11:21,390 --> 00:11:22,739
you're choosing to hide them again,

327
00:11:22,789 --> 00:11:24,270
even though last time you hid them,

328
00:11:24,309 --> 00:11:26,390
you knew that they weren't there when you came back.

329
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,099
We're not going to set a limit on hiding toys.

330
00:11:32,260 --> 00:11:32,849
Because

331
00:11:33,020 --> 00:11:35,419
that's a big part of the CCPT process.

332
00:11:35,539 --> 00:11:36,380
Kids hide things.

333
00:11:37,140 --> 00:11:39,059
So we would not set a limit on that.

334
00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:44,030
We would just have already set expectations that it may not turn out the way that

335
00:11:44,239 --> 00:11:45,599
he was intending for it to.

336
00:11:46,750 --> 00:11:47,729
And

337
00:11:48,049 --> 00:11:51,479
when you said other kids use them when they come here just like you do,

338
00:11:51,690 --> 00:11:53,849
that's a helpful expectation setting.

339
00:11:54,690 --> 00:11:56,570
You know other kids use them

340
00:11:56,780 --> 00:11:58,820
when they come here just like you do.

341
00:11:59,260 --> 00:12:00,890
That's a very helpful thing to say.

342
00:12:01,059 --> 00:12:04,780
It just doesn't need to be the justification for why he's not allowed to hide things.

343
00:12:05,929 --> 00:12:07,000
And then

344
00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:08,880
you didn't want him to be disappointed.

345
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:09,280
All right,

346
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,229
so I'm glad that this came up.

347
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,030
We are wired

348
00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,510
to shield kids,

349
00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:15,869
to safeguard,

350
00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:17,400
to rescue,

351
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:18,190
to fix,

352
00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:19,469
to problem solve,

353
00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:22,200
to spare them from whatever it is.

354
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,840
This is why we're child therapists.

355
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,590
This is why we're CCPT

356
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:28,510
because we would,

357
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:29,590
if we had the choice,

358
00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,309
we would protect kids from stuff like this.

359
00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:35,280
And that's a very common thing

360
00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,599
where we have to stop ourselves from being the

361
00:12:38,599 --> 00:12:40,750
one that's trying to save a kid from something.

362
00:12:41,590 --> 00:12:42,400
So saying,

363
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,150
I don't want you to be disappointed.

364
00:12:45,059 --> 00:12:46,250
That's agenda driven,

365
00:12:46,270 --> 00:12:47,770
even though it is with the most

366
00:12:48,109 --> 00:12:50,590
helpful and loving and kind of intentions,

367
00:12:50,750 --> 00:12:51,859
it's agenda driven.

368
00:12:52,429 --> 00:12:53,539
So we can't

369
00:12:53,869 --> 00:12:56,030
try to keep a kid from being disappointed.

370
00:12:57,010 --> 00:12:57,679
That has

371
00:12:57,969 --> 00:13:00,469
no place in a CCPT playroom.

372
00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:04,210
We're going to sit in the pocket of the disappointment with the child.

373
00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:07,200
We're going to reflect the disappointment of the child.

374
00:13:07,770 --> 00:13:12,090
We're going to let them figure out how to get themselves out of that disappointment,

375
00:13:12,650 --> 00:13:14,239
but we're not trying to spare them

376
00:13:14,489 --> 00:13:15,609
or protect them from it.

377
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:18,599
So everything you said up to that point.

378
00:13:19,609 --> 00:13:23,710
I'm not sure if the Legos are gonna be in the same spot next time because

379
00:13:23,710 --> 00:13:27,299
you know other kids come in here and you know other kids play with things.

380
00:13:27,909 --> 00:13:30,099
I don't know if they're gonna be in here next time.

381
00:13:30,510 --> 00:13:31,909
That's a truthful acknowledgement,

382
00:13:32,010 --> 00:13:32,820
you're not sure.

383
00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:37,739
But to say I don't want you to be disappointed,

384
00:13:38,030 --> 00:13:40,940
we just eliminate that part of what was said.

385
00:13:41,309 --> 00:13:44,500
So everything leading up to that point would be helpful for him to know.

386
00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:47,340
And then we're not going to have an agenda

387
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:49,140
that we want him to be happy

388
00:13:49,510 --> 00:13:51,940
or that we want to spare him from that disappointment.

389
00:13:53,140 --> 00:13:57,080
And then if a kid asks you to make sure that no one colors on the page,

390
00:13:57,369 --> 00:13:58,950
I would turn that into a choice

391
00:13:59,409 --> 00:14:03,159
because for us once a child uses a page in a coloring book,

392
00:14:03,489 --> 00:14:07,210
it's used so they can choose to take it home or

393
00:14:07,210 --> 00:14:09,840
they can choose to have me keep it in their folder

394
00:14:10,130 --> 00:14:14,039
or if they choose neither then they choose for us to throw it away.

395
00:14:14,830 --> 00:14:16,020
So in that scenario,

396
00:14:16,150 --> 00:14:17,099
I would say,

397
00:14:17,549 --> 00:14:21,739
you're really hoping that no one colors in this coloring book page,

398
00:14:21,989 --> 00:14:24,940
you can choose to take it home with you and finish it,

399
00:14:25,150 --> 00:14:27,940
or you can choose for me to keep it in your folder for you,

400
00:14:27,950 --> 00:14:28,750
which do you choose?

401
00:14:30,179 --> 00:14:31,109
And then

402
00:14:31,340 --> 00:14:34,409
they can ensure that no one colors in their page,

403
00:14:34,739 --> 00:14:37,059
but it doesn't sit in the playroom.

404
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,070
Because no kid wants to color

405
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,590
on someone else's coloring page.

406
00:14:43,109 --> 00:14:46,229
Kids will flip through a 400 page coloring book

407
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,539
until they find a blank page to color on.

408
00:14:49,909 --> 00:14:52,630
No one wants to color where someone else has already colored.

409
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,859
And so therefore,

410
00:14:55,090 --> 00:14:57,830
once a child has colored on something or in something,

411
00:14:57,909 --> 00:14:59,380
it kind of becomes theirs,

412
00:14:59,590 --> 00:15:01,630
so they get to choose whether they take it home or

413
00:15:01,630 --> 00:15:03,710
whether they choose to have us keep it in the file.

414
00:15:03,789 --> 00:15:05,739
If they choose for us to keep it in the file,

415
00:15:06,229 --> 00:15:08,859
then they can choose to color on it the next time they come,

416
00:15:09,710 --> 00:15:13,109
or they can choose to color on it at home and finish it if they take it with them.

417
00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:15,359
So that one was a much easier fix,

418
00:15:15,429 --> 00:15:16,039
Nicole.

419
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:17,150
All right,

420
00:15:17,270 --> 00:15:18,619
so I hope that that's helpful for you,

421
00:15:18,630 --> 00:15:18,950
Nicole.

422
00:15:18,989 --> 00:15:19,710
Thank you for the email.

423
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:21,179
I hope that that's helpful for all of us.

424
00:15:21,250 --> 00:15:22,679
We always have kids.

425
00:15:23,469 --> 00:15:26,979
That want things to be a certain way to preserve them,

426
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:27,659
to hide them,

427
00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:28,299
to keep them,

428
00:15:28,349 --> 00:15:29,219
to do whatever

429
00:15:29,549 --> 00:15:35,099
and this is a standard part of having lots of clients that all want different things,

430
00:15:35,309 --> 00:15:36,200
how to navigate that.

431
00:15:36,229 --> 00:15:37,460
So this was a really helpful question.

432
00:15:37,549 --> 00:15:39,109
I'm glad we had a chance to talk about it.

433
00:15:39,469 --> 00:15:39,590
All right,

434
00:15:39,659 --> 00:15:40,729
if you want to send me an email,

435
00:15:40,789 --> 00:15:43,260
please do brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

436
00:15:43,909 --> 00:15:44,429
I love y'all.

437
00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:45,659
I'm grateful for you.

438
00:15:46,070 --> 00:15:48,059
Continue to love your kids,

439
00:15:48,549 --> 00:15:50,539
continue to love this model,

440
00:15:50,989 --> 00:15:52,429
continue to trust the process.

441
00:15:53,179 --> 00:15:56,280
And continue to watch kids self-actualize

442
00:15:56,609 --> 00:15:57,799
with gratitude

443
00:15:58,169 --> 00:15:58,880
and

444
00:15:59,130 --> 00:16:00,469
with excitement

445
00:16:00,729 --> 00:16:03,760
that you're on the front line of watching kids heal.

446
00:16:03,969 --> 00:16:06,640
It is the most incredible opportunity

447
00:16:06,969 --> 00:16:08,520
I think that we're given

448
00:16:08,770 --> 00:16:11,000
if you're a mental health professional

449
00:16:11,729 --> 00:16:15,840
to see children become better versions of themselves right in front of you.

450
00:16:16,409 --> 00:16:19,559
I don't think that there's anything better in this entire field

451
00:16:19,849 --> 00:16:20,409
than that.

452
00:16:20,849 --> 00:16:21,809
So be encouraged,

453
00:16:22,010 --> 00:16:22,780
know that you're loved.

454
00:16:22,969 --> 00:16:23,799
We'll talk again soon.

455
00:16:24,010 --> 00:16:24,200
Bye.

456
00:16:25,390 --> 00:16:28,150
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

457
00:16:28,309 --> 00:16:29,260
Brenna Hicks.

458
00:16:29,429 --> 00:16:31,419
For more episodes and resources,

459
00:16:31,510 --> 00:16:36,270
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.