#32 Vivian

Pushkin Jackie. 0:00:27.130 --> 0:00:33.129 Hello, who calls it six thirty on Friday night? 0:00:32.129 --> 0:00:34.450 Wait? Wait? 0:00:34.489 --> 0:00:34.569 What? 0:00:34.730 --> 0:00:36.810 I wanted to say one thing? Hello? 0:00:37.170 --> 0:00:40.610 Yeah, you do you know that a new season of 0:00:40.690 --> 0:00:41.529 my show is starting? 0:00:42.129 --> 0:00:43.530 I had no idea Listen. 0:00:43.530 --> 0:00:45.690 I wanted to wash you great luck. Is this a 0:00:45.769 --> 0:00:46.250 kiss off? 0:00:47.650 --> 0:00:58.650 Yeah? 0:00:58.730 --> 0:00:59.770 From Gimblet Media. 0:01:00.130 --> 0:01:06.610 I'm Jonathan Goldstein and this is Heavyweight Today's episode Vivian 0:01:13.410 --> 0:01:22.930 right after the break. This story begins back before the quarantine, 0:01:23.450 --> 0:01:26.810 a time when people didn't start conversations with how are 0:01:26.850 --> 0:01:31.250 you holding up? During those innocent days. We started with 0:01:31.290 --> 0:01:31.650 the weather. 0:01:32.170 --> 0:01:36.050 It was minus forty last week minus forty. My front 0:01:36.050 --> 0:01:38.290 door froze shut. I had to use like a hair 0:01:38.410 --> 0:01:39.810 dryer to get out of the house. 0:01:40.850 --> 0:01:43.490 Vivian lives in Canada, and while I'm always happy to 0:01:43.530 --> 0:01:45.770 talk about Canada, white Horse is beautiful. 0:01:45.970 --> 0:01:47.970 I once had an opportunity to go there. 0:01:48.170 --> 0:01:51.450 It's not the reason why we're here. Vivian's reached out 0:01:51.490 --> 0:01:54.210 to talk about something that happened twenty five years ago 0:01:54.610 --> 0:01:57.810 that she still has questions about the death of her 0:01:57.890 --> 0:01:58.490 uncle Ellio. 0:01:59.090 --> 0:02:03.330 I grew up in Winnipeg. There's like nothing that sexy 0:02:03.490 --> 0:02:08.169 about Winnipeg and my uncle it was like he had 0:02:08.250 --> 0:02:11.610 just like breathed off of like a film set, Like 0:02:11.730 --> 0:02:15.130 you wear this black leather jacket. He's like tight jeans, 0:02:15.329 --> 0:02:20.770 and he smoked cigarettes and he just emanated coolness. I 0:02:20.770 --> 0:02:25.050 don't really know how other to say it than he did. Yeah, 0:02:25.090 --> 0:02:25.770 this swagger. 0:02:27.770 --> 0:02:30.450 Ellio lived in New York City. He was a journalist 0:02:30.530 --> 0:02:33.450 and had friends who were artists and writers. He gave 0:02:33.530 --> 0:02:36.450 Vivian her very first journal, which he still carries around 0:02:36.530 --> 0:02:40.050 to this day. In Vivian's memory, there was a lightness 0:02:40.050 --> 0:02:43.250 about Elio. Everything was always for a laugh, Like the 0:02:43.290 --> 0:02:46.130 time they were back visiting their family in Brazil and 0:02:46.210 --> 0:02:49.810 Elo had Vivian and her brother full dozens of paper airplanes. 0:02:50.690 --> 0:02:52.570 He was staying on the ninth or tenth floor of 0:02:52.610 --> 0:02:56.130 this apartment building and it was like this really beautiful 0:02:56.130 --> 0:02:59.530 sunny day and we like walked out onto the balcony 0:02:59.570 --> 0:03:01.530 and just like shot off like one hundred of these 0:03:01.570 --> 0:03:08.370 airplanes into the sunshine. It felt like electric and so 0:03:09.410 --> 0:03:10.730 like free. 0:03:10.970 --> 0:03:13.410 On the inside of Vivian's arm is a tattoo of 0:03:13.450 --> 0:03:16.250 a paper airplane. It's there to remind her of the 0:03:16.290 --> 0:03:19.610 freedom and lightness she felt that day. It's there to 0:03:19.650 --> 0:03:25.810 remind her of Elli Oh. November seventh, nineteen ninety two, 0:03:26.090 --> 0:03:29.169 Vivian was nine years old. It was her brother's birthday 0:03:29.450 --> 0:03:31.890 and the family was heading out to celebrate when the 0:03:31.930 --> 0:03:38.650 phone rang. It was Elyo's roommate, a man named Marcello. 0:03:37.530 --> 0:03:42.410 And Marcello just said straight up like Elu had a 0:03:42.410 --> 0:03:49.210 seizure that's related to AIDS and he's sick, and that 0:03:49.370 --> 0:03:51.570 was how the family found out that one that he 0:03:51.650 --> 0:03:54.930 was gay, in too, that he had AIDS. 0:03:55.770 --> 0:03:58.090 Ellio was in his mid thirties and had never told 0:03:58.130 --> 0:04:01.170 his family he was gay. In fact, he often spoke 0:04:01.210 --> 0:04:04.450 of wanting to find a wife and settle down. Over 0:04:04.450 --> 0:04:08.090 the next few years, the illness advanced rapidly, so Vivian's 0:04:08.090 --> 0:04:12.170 family planned out visit. Vivian remembers one trip in particular, 0:04:12.770 --> 0:04:15.010 her dad packed her and her brother into the car 0:04:15.170 --> 0:04:18.290 to drive from Winnipeg to New York, a twenty five 0:04:18.370 --> 0:04:19.969 hour road trip to. 0:04:20.089 --> 0:04:23.330 My dad's little Honda Civic with no air conditioning. 0:04:23.969 --> 0:04:27.169 This is Vivian's brother, Eduardo. He's three years older than 0:04:27.250 --> 0:04:29.890 Vivian and has clearer memories from the trip down. 0:04:30.609 --> 0:04:33.089 It was like hottest summer on record. 0:04:33.929 --> 0:04:34.569 Along the way. 0:04:34.609 --> 0:04:38.569 We had to stop in convenience stores and supermarkets just 0:04:38.570 --> 0:04:39.330 to cool off. 0:04:40.489 --> 0:04:43.210 Eduardo says. His father brought along a video camera and 0:04:43.369 --> 0:04:47.890 entered ELO's tiny apartment on Lafayette Street already rolling. Elio 0:04:48.049 --> 0:04:51.050 was lying prone on the couch, not wanting to be recorded. 0:04:51.570 --> 0:04:55.770 She turned his head from us, kind of pulling the 0:04:55.770 --> 0:04:59.369 blanket off over his sighs his head and being like 0:04:59.409 --> 0:05:00.849 embarrassed at how he looked. 0:05:01.810 --> 0:05:04.929 Elio was thin and frail and hooked up to IV tubes. 0:05:05.929 --> 0:05:09.850 Vivian's grandparents had flown in from South Paulo. Watch them 0:05:09.849 --> 0:05:10.369 with their son. 0:05:11.210 --> 0:05:17.370 I remember them not touching him because presumably they were 0:05:17.409 --> 0:05:21.529 afraid to get sick. And I remember thinking that was 0:05:21.570 --> 0:05:26.890 like really just like really weird and really sad. The 0:05:26.969 --> 0:05:32.450 family didn't really help. They didn't help, like when when 0:05:32.489 --> 0:05:36.330 Ali was sick. I guess my dad's conception of health 0:05:36.330 --> 0:05:38.089 thing was like, oh, I'm going to bring the kids 0:05:38.130 --> 0:05:41.529 for like five days and we'll come visit. But no 0:05:41.529 --> 0:05:49.650 one like stopped their lives to like come look after him. 0:05:49.770 --> 0:05:52.370 While the family paid for all of Elio's medical bills, 0:05:52.729 --> 0:05:55.650 the person who actually did stop his life did come 0:05:55.650 --> 0:05:57.809 look after Eli. Oh was the man who made the 0:05:57.810 --> 0:06:07.049 phone call that November day in nineteen ninety two. Marcello 0:06:09.169 --> 0:06:12.849 has almost no memories of Marcello, and Eduardo's memories are vague, 0:06:13.330 --> 0:06:16.929 Marcello moving about the apartment, always in the background, referred 0:06:16.929 --> 0:06:20.689 to by ellioh only as a friend. Growing up, the 0:06:20.770 --> 0:06:23.929 name Marcelo meant nothing to Vivian. It was only later, 0:06:24.169 --> 0:06:27.289 as a teenager that she learned Marcelo had been partners 0:06:27.330 --> 0:06:29.650 with her uncle for thirteen years. 0:06:30.289 --> 0:06:32.330 And I think part of it is because, you know, 0:06:32.489 --> 0:06:37.169 unlike an aunt, like say Ellie was heterosexual, on dating 0:06:37.169 --> 0:06:40.609 a woman, his partner would have been introduced in that way, like, oh, 0:06:40.690 --> 0:06:44.529 well this is your aunt or this is a more 0:06:45.289 --> 0:06:46.969 important person in your life. 0:06:47.210 --> 0:06:50.729 Right, Elliot couldn't say, hey, this is your uncle exactly. 0:06:51.770 --> 0:06:56.130 But in some ways, you know, even though it sounds 0:06:56.169 --> 0:06:58.609 really weird, it's like he is kind of my uncle. 0:06:58.969 --> 0:07:01.409 Hmmm, I don't think it sounds that weird. 0:07:01.450 --> 0:07:03.450 I mean it's sort of like, you know, if things 0:07:03.489 --> 0:07:07.210 had been different, if your uncle had married him, you 0:07:07.250 --> 0:07:11.010 guys would have had a formal connection, and instead there 0:07:11.050 --> 0:07:13.050 isn't exactly a name for him, and as a result, 0:07:13.090 --> 0:07:16.329 you've lost that person who was so good to your uncle. 0:07:17.170 --> 0:07:26.009 Yeah, exactly. It was obviously so like shamed in my 0:07:26.170 --> 0:07:33.650 family that you know, we couldn't even call ell you gay. 0:07:33.770 --> 0:07:36.730 The wound Vivian feels over the injustice or family did 0:07:36.770 --> 0:07:39.890 to Elioh has only grown deeper over the years as 0:07:39.929 --> 0:07:43.090 she's become better able to put herself in her uncle's shoes. 0:07:43.970 --> 0:07:48.850 I didn't really clue into being attracted to women until 0:07:48.929 --> 0:07:53.850 I was like twenty early twenties. I couldn't let myself 0:07:53.929 --> 0:07:57.489 even think about that because seeing how the family like 0:07:57.730 --> 0:08:03.770 treated my uncle, like, I'm sure it left this message 0:08:03.810 --> 0:08:06.809 with me, you know that it wasn't a good thing. 0:08:17.170 --> 0:08:20.410 This month I turned thirty seven, I turned thirty seven, 0:08:20.450 --> 0:08:23.410 which is the same year that my uncle passed away. 0:08:24.130 --> 0:08:27.730 And so at this point in my life, if I 0:08:27.770 --> 0:08:31.930 had this illness, like terminal illness, and I was living 0:08:31.970 --> 0:08:35.130 on the other side of the world and my family 0:08:35.290 --> 0:08:38.290 didn't come, you know, to help. 0:08:38.130 --> 0:08:41.410 Me, as Marcela did. 0:08:43.610 --> 0:08:48.250 Yeah, yeah, I don't even know him, like I can't 0:08:48.250 --> 0:08:51.690 even remember like a visual of him, and yet like 0:08:53.530 --> 0:09:02.890 I feel very connected to this person. I want to 0:09:02.890 --> 0:09:09.090 find Marcello and I want to tell him thank you 0:09:09.450 --> 0:09:16.210 for looking after Elu for that huge sacrifice that he made, 0:09:17.010 --> 0:09:18.490 and I think I want to let him know that 0:09:19.450 --> 0:09:24.530 I have spent, you know, so much time like thinking 0:09:24.570 --> 0:09:30.650 about him. 0:09:30.690 --> 0:09:49.890 After the break the search for Marcelo, I don't have 0:09:49.970 --> 0:09:53.530 much to begin my search for Marcelo. Vivian remembers that 0:09:53.570 --> 0:09:56.250 back when he was living with elioh Marcelo worked as 0:09:56.290 --> 0:09:59.250 a security guard at the Museum of Modern Art, but 0:09:59.290 --> 0:10:02.610 I can't find any record of his employment. When Vivian 0:10:02.650 --> 0:10:05.050 told me about Elio's old group of artist friends, though, 0:10:05.450 --> 0:10:08.810 she singled out one artist by name, a very famous 0:10:09.130 --> 0:10:13.209 usical composer. And while the composer's number isn't readily available, 0:10:13.890 --> 0:10:20.450 I do happen to have his cousin's number. Hello, Ira, 0:10:20.890 --> 0:10:23.530 Oh shit, do we have an interview now? Potty mouth 0:10:23.570 --> 0:10:28.090 broadcast or Ira Glass is cousins with minimalist musical composer 0:10:28.290 --> 0:10:30.890 Philip Glass, the old friend of Vellios. 0:10:30.970 --> 0:10:35.330 I seek sorry, sorry, sorry, be okay, give me a 0:10:35.330 --> 0:10:37.010 second to turn on gear on my side. 0:10:37.210 --> 0:10:38.330 Sure, okay, okay. 0:10:39.970 --> 0:10:42.650 You never want to bother the people you admire, but 0:10:42.770 --> 0:10:46.450 in the back of your mind you think, okay, maybe someday, 0:10:46.890 --> 0:10:50.010 in an emergency, I might be entitled to a favor, 0:10:50.770 --> 0:10:52.690 and then you ask them to write a preface to 0:10:52.730 --> 0:10:57.010 your experimental novella published by a small Canadian press, and 0:10:57.050 --> 0:10:59.370 then you ask them to introduce you at your book 0:10:59.450 --> 0:11:04.210 launch that's only attended by seven people. This is how 0:11:04.250 --> 0:11:07.450 I felt phoning up to chop yet another branch from 0:11:07.530 --> 0:11:11.610 the giving tree, which is I a glass. So I 0:11:12.530 --> 0:11:17.530 just wanted to I wanted to ask you for a 0:11:17.530 --> 0:11:20.850 phone number. Okay, a cousin of yours. 0:11:23.250 --> 0:11:23.730 Keep going. 0:11:24.250 --> 0:11:26.050 Do you know who I'm talking about? 0:11:27.770 --> 0:11:29.450 I assume you mean Philip. 0:11:32.570 --> 0:11:35.890 Being something of a storyteller, the mention of Philip prompts 0:11:35.890 --> 0:11:38.570 Irah to tell the story of when he and his 0:11:38.610 --> 0:11:41.370 wife vacationed with Philip and his girlfriend in Italy. 0:11:42.170 --> 0:11:45.370 He was finishing up at one of his operas and 0:11:45.410 --> 0:11:47.730 he had an electric piano brought in and they were 0:11:47.770 --> 0:11:50.410 in a bedroom like down the hall from us, and 0:11:50.450 --> 0:11:52.930 so we would be woken up by him composing, which 0:11:52.970 --> 0:11:54.490 is crazy. 0:11:54.370 --> 0:11:56.770 And you were doing vocal warm ups, well he. 0:11:56.810 --> 0:12:01.250 Was, Yeah, I was just practicing staying over and over. 0:12:01.410 --> 0:12:04.650 Stay with us, Stay with us, stay stay with us. 0:12:09.650 --> 0:12:12.330 Irah promises to reach out to Philip on my behalf 0:12:12.690 --> 0:12:15.890 to see if he still has Marcella's phone number. Hey, 0:12:15.970 --> 0:12:18.690 before you go, can I share with you a little 0:12:18.930 --> 0:12:19.650 knock knock joke? 0:12:20.290 --> 0:12:20.650 Sure? 0:12:21.490 --> 0:12:23.970 Knock knock, who's there? Knock knock? 0:12:24.170 --> 0:12:25.810 Who's there? Knock knock? 0:12:26.170 --> 0:12:26.690 Who's there? 0:12:27.290 --> 0:12:27.850 Knock knock? 0:12:30.530 --> 0:12:31.010 Who's there? 0:12:31.650 --> 0:12:32.410 Philip Glass? 0:12:34.610 --> 0:12:35.850 Yeah, I know that one. 0:12:35.890 --> 0:12:37.690 I'm sure he knows that one too, Do you think so? 0:12:38.170 --> 0:12:40.290 I mean, that's like, can I just say, like, that's 0:12:40.290 --> 0:12:43.730 a level of fame that you or I cannot even 0:12:43.770 --> 0:12:45.650 aspire to to have. 0:12:45.610 --> 0:12:48.290 A knock knock joke named after you? Who gets that? 0:12:48.970 --> 0:12:49.650 Who gets that? 0:12:50.250 --> 0:12:50.450 You know? 0:12:50.450 --> 0:13:04.330 Who gets that banana? 0:13:07.250 --> 0:13:11.130 A week later, Ira writes back, Philip doesn't have anything, 0:13:11.770 --> 0:13:14.370 which is to say, Ira concludes at the end of 0:13:14.370 --> 0:13:20.970 his email, knock knock, who's there? Not Philip Glass? And 0:13:21.050 --> 0:13:25.730 so the search continues. Vivian's dad, Jacques, doesn't have a 0:13:25.730 --> 0:13:28.690 current number for Marcello. The last time he saw him 0:13:28.850 --> 0:13:32.410 was five years after Elio died. Still feeling guilty about 0:13:32.410 --> 0:13:36.610 the circumstances surrounding his brother's death, Jacques had sought Marcello out. 0:13:37.570 --> 0:13:39.650 I felt that the only person who could absolve me, 0:13:39.770 --> 0:13:44.730 Jacques said, was Marcello. But the encounter was fraught. Jacques 0:13:44.770 --> 0:13:47.330 later spoke of it with Vivian, telling her he walked 0:13:47.330 --> 0:13:50.170 away feeling like Marcello was angry with their family for 0:13:50.250 --> 0:13:55.090 abandoning elioh hearing this, I wonder if Marcello is still angry. 0:13:55.970 --> 0:13:59.210 Perhaps after all of these years, Marcello doesn't want to 0:13:59.210 --> 0:14:07.650 be found. The only other thing I know about Marcello 0:14:08.010 --> 0:14:11.890 is that he'd been involved in AIDS activism. After extensive googling, 0:14:12.210 --> 0:14:15.330 I discover an article on an HIV resource site from 0:14:15.450 --> 0:14:18.690 nineteen ninety eight written by Marcello's spelled with one L, 0:14:19.010 --> 0:14:22.730 not two, as Vivian had remembered, being so young at 0:14:22.730 --> 0:14:26.050 the time. Maybe there are other details Vivian is misremembering, 0:14:26.730 --> 0:14:29.610 And sure enough it's in a nineteen ninety four staffing 0:14:29.650 --> 0:14:32.730 report for the Met not the MoMA, that I find 0:14:32.810 --> 0:14:38.890 the one eld Marcello. He now lives in San Francisco, 0:14:39.250 --> 0:14:42.530 and in my excitement, I leave him a rambling, incoherent 0:14:42.610 --> 0:14:45.010 message about how I know this must be so weird, 0:14:45.410 --> 0:14:49.930 but I'm calling on behalf of Elio's niece, Vivian Marcello. Hey, 0:14:50.210 --> 0:14:51.970 I'm so glad that you have the time to talk. 0:14:52.050 --> 0:14:55.370 The very next day, Marcello calls back, and right off 0:14:55.410 --> 0:14:59.450 the bat admits that his feelings about Elio's family are mixed. 0:15:00.210 --> 0:15:04.050 It's it's complicated, it's very complicated. 0:15:04.250 --> 0:15:09.170 It's just really it's a complicated history. 0:15:09.850 --> 0:15:12.970 Marcelo unravels it for me, beginning at the same place 0:15:13.090 --> 0:15:16.770 Vivian did November of nineteen ninety two. It was the 0:15:16.770 --> 0:15:18.690 morning after Bill Clinton was elected. 0:15:19.210 --> 0:15:21.730 We're sitting in a coffee shop reading the results of 0:15:21.770 --> 0:15:25.730 the elections, and I had a grandma's seizure right in 0:15:25.770 --> 0:15:26.250 front of me. 0:15:28.330 --> 0:15:31.210 They rushed to a nearby hospital, where tests were performed, 0:15:31.490 --> 0:15:34.050 and for the next few days Marcelo walked around in 0:15:34.090 --> 0:15:38.370 a stupor. When they received the official diagnosis, Marcello picked 0:15:38.410 --> 0:15:40.970 up the phone and made the call to Vivian's house. 0:15:45.490 --> 0:15:49.050 The learning that Elio had AIDS was devastating. The disease 0:15:49.130 --> 0:15:52.170 itself was all too familiar in New York City. By 0:15:52.170 --> 0:15:55.330 that year, nineteen ninety two, AIDS had become the leading 0:15:55.370 --> 0:15:58.210 cause of death in American men aged twenty five to 0:15:58.250 --> 0:15:58.770 forty four. 0:15:59.490 --> 0:16:01.730 You remember in the nineties an eight as you would 0:16:01.730 --> 0:16:04.490 see people gone, can the sheikshare? 0:16:04.570 --> 0:16:04.770 You know? 0:16:06.010 --> 0:16:07.970 And so that was sort of like a certain look. 0:16:09.810 --> 0:16:15.210 However handsome he was, he got that look. He had 0:16:15.250 --> 0:16:16.850 lost control of his bomb movements. 0:16:16.970 --> 0:16:24.970 He was in diapers, he was blind, he was I'm sorry. 0:16:26.730 --> 0:16:29.290 Marcello was in his late twenties when it became Leo's 0:16:29.290 --> 0:16:33.050 full time nurse. Ellio was sick for three years, and 0:16:33.210 --> 0:16:36.250 just months before the AIDS cocktail became widely available. 0:16:36.730 --> 0:16:40.410 He died very beautifully. He died very peacefully. 0:16:41.330 --> 0:16:47.170 In those last moments. It was a beautiful night. There 0:16:47.250 --> 0:16:52.490 was this blue sky, and there's stars and a crescent moon. 0:16:53.210 --> 0:16:56.650 And as we looked up the sky, this airplane sort 0:16:56.650 --> 0:16:58.010 of crisscrossed took the moon. 0:16:59.250 --> 0:17:02.930 As Marcello speaks, I'm reminded of Ellio in Brazil flying 0:17:02.930 --> 0:17:04.410 paper planes off the balcony. 0:17:05.410 --> 0:17:09.050 And we waved at Alu and then we said goodbye, 0:17:09.210 --> 0:17:10.170 and then he passed. 0:17:19.209 --> 0:17:22.810 True to Jacques's telling, Marcello was angry with the family's behavior, 0:17:23.209 --> 0:17:26.530 especially during the last days of Elio's life. That's when 0:17:26.530 --> 0:17:30.289 things grew complicated. The family had set aside funds so 0:17:30.369 --> 0:17:33.209 Marcelo could pay for the embalming. It had to happen 0:17:33.209 --> 0:17:35.530 as soon as Elo died before the body could be 0:17:35.570 --> 0:17:36.250 sent to Brazil. 0:17:36.330 --> 0:17:36.890 For burial. 0:17:37.689 --> 0:17:40.570 When Marcelo knew Eleo only had a day or two left, 0:17:40.850 --> 0:17:42.689 in the midst of so many other worries and so 0:17:42.770 --> 0:17:46.570 much sadness, he phoned Eleo's middle brother, Vivian's uncle, so 0:17:46.770 --> 0:17:50.330 arrangements could be made, but Vivian's uncle didn't believe him, 0:17:50.730 --> 0:17:53.129 insisting Elyo had more time The. 0:17:53.209 --> 0:17:55.409 Day before he was dying. You know, I said, listen, 0:17:55.409 --> 0:17:57.449 I need your guys to release the money because this 0:17:57.530 --> 0:18:01.209 is going to happen. And he suggested that I was 0:18:01.209 --> 0:18:06.810 trying to talk at the money, and I lost it 0:18:06.850 --> 0:18:07.409 at that moment. 0:18:10.689 --> 0:18:12.810 That's just when Baalistic. 0:18:13.330 --> 0:18:15.689 The family had left Marcello the burden of caring for 0:18:15.730 --> 0:18:19.050 elioh and now on top of that, they were accusing 0:18:19.129 --> 0:18:22.529 him of theft. Marcello knew he wouldn't be welcomed as 0:18:22.570 --> 0:18:24.889 a part of Elio's family, and so he did not 0:18:24.970 --> 0:18:28.049 attend the funeral in Brazil. He would later learn from 0:18:28.090 --> 0:18:31.249 friends who were present that he wasn't thanked. In fact, 0:18:31.449 --> 0:18:33.369 there wasn't so much as a mention of his name, 0:18:33.929 --> 0:18:37.489 not at the service nor in the death announcement, which 0:18:37.530 --> 0:18:43.010 is to say Marcello's feelings are indeed complicated, but when 0:18:43.010 --> 0:18:45.490 he looks up a photo of Vivian online and sees 0:18:45.530 --> 0:18:47.810 her face, something is made simple. 0:18:49.770 --> 0:18:51.010 She looks like al a lot. 0:18:51.250 --> 0:18:52.490 She looks like you a lot. 0:18:52.570 --> 0:18:55.850 She looks like of all the kids, she is the 0:18:55.850 --> 0:18:57.330 one who looks like him a lot. 0:18:57.449 --> 0:18:58.330 She looks like him. 0:18:58.530 --> 0:18:59.410 That's incredible. 0:19:09.290 --> 0:19:11.449 By the end of our call, Marcelo has agreed to 0:19:11.449 --> 0:19:14.090 meet Vivian in New York, where you can introduce her 0:19:14.129 --> 0:19:20.409 to the people and places Elio loved best. Coming up 0:19:20.409 --> 0:19:27.649 after the break, Vivian and Marcello stay with us, Stay 0:19:27.689 --> 0:19:30.929 with us, Stay with us, Stay with us. 0:19:31.290 --> 0:19:32.129 Stay with us. 0:19:48.369 --> 0:19:51.369 So we would shop on these blocks on Broadway because 0:19:51.409 --> 0:19:53.249 there are designtic source vintage clothing. 0:19:53.449 --> 0:19:56.129 So this is this is are we walked around here. 0:19:56.449 --> 0:19:58.690 Vivian has flown to New York to deliver a thank 0:19:58.730 --> 0:20:03.009 you that's twenty five years overdue, and Marcelo has his 0:20:03.050 --> 0:20:06.889 own agenda to introduce Vivian to the real Elio. And 0:20:06.929 --> 0:20:10.129 so we're in the village on a tour through l life. 0:20:10.649 --> 0:20:13.810 Marcelo points out their favorite hans and tells Vivian about 0:20:13.810 --> 0:20:17.050 Eleo's career as a journalist, the time he profiled the 0:20:17.090 --> 0:20:21.129 Beat poet Alan Ginsberg showing up for the interview. Eleo 0:20:21.250 --> 0:20:23.289 found Ginsburg in the midst of writing a poem. 0:20:23.409 --> 0:20:26.969 Alan Gisberg starts yelling at him, saying, you interrupt the 0:20:27.010 --> 0:20:28.130 moment of inspiration. 0:20:28.570 --> 0:20:30.770 This poem is gone. It's gone, gone, gone. 0:20:30.770 --> 0:20:33.650 I won't remember a thing anymore. Held. 0:20:35.449 --> 0:20:38.489 Marcello also takes Vivian to meet some of Ello's old friends. 0:20:41.649 --> 0:20:45.170 You must be the niece, how are you? 0:20:45.490 --> 0:20:48.090 Ruth was a well respected New York tattoo artist in 0:20:48.129 --> 0:20:51.730 the seventies and eighties. Nowadays, her work is exhibited all 0:20:51.770 --> 0:20:55.050 over the world. Her apartment is where Eleo's New York 0:20:55.090 --> 0:20:56.330 memorial was held. 0:20:56.570 --> 0:21:00.330 It was another aide's death. It was another terrible, terrible loss, 0:21:01.330 --> 0:21:05.409 and everybody here had experienced it or nurses, somebody, you know. 0:21:05.570 --> 0:21:08.769 To the end, I mean as young people as people 0:21:08.770 --> 0:21:09.530 in the thirties. 0:21:09.609 --> 0:21:16.770 Right, So you're very lucky anywhere, very lucky you didn't get. 0:21:16.850 --> 0:21:19.369 Yeah, yeah, it's fantastic that you didn't. 0:21:20.770 --> 0:21:23.050 The irony had said, twenty five years we'll talk about 0:21:23.050 --> 0:21:25.730 a virus, and twenty five years later, celebrating out of here, 0:21:25.770 --> 0:21:27.770 we are talk about a virus again. 0:21:29.290 --> 0:21:32.169 It's early March twenty twenty, a few days after the 0:21:32.209 --> 0:21:36.010 first confirmed case of COVID nineteen in New York. It's 0:21:36.010 --> 0:21:38.649 that one weird week when we thought bumping elbows would 0:21:38.649 --> 0:21:42.369 solve everything. In fact, here we are on a social call, 0:21:42.609 --> 0:21:45.689 playing it quote safe by eating the snacks Ruth made 0:21:45.730 --> 0:21:50.050 from individually prepared bulls. Just days later, schools across the 0:21:50.090 --> 0:21:56.369 city would be closed, Restaurants, stores and offices all shut. 0:21:56.810 --> 0:21:59.490 Like with the beginning of the AIDS pandemic, our government 0:21:59.530 --> 0:22:02.649 would again fail in its response, our medical system would 0:22:02.649 --> 0:22:07.570 again prove ill equipped, misinformation would abound, and doctor Anthony Fauci, 0:22:07.770 --> 0:22:11.290 who decades earlier led tactical charge against the AIDS outbreak, 0:22:11.609 --> 0:22:20.249 would be back on TV picking up the slack. In 0:22:20.290 --> 0:22:23.489 contrast to the religious service in Brazil, Ruth says that 0:22:23.530 --> 0:22:26.090 the memorial at her place for Elio that day was 0:22:26.090 --> 0:22:27.690 a raucous affair, you know. 0:22:27.649 --> 0:22:30.889 With a conga line announcing the conga around this apartment. 0:22:30.970 --> 0:22:33.850 Well, all these good looking guys in one room. You know, 0:22:33.889 --> 0:22:35.609 it wasn't going to stay sad for two. 0:22:39.330 --> 0:22:43.489 It was the best funeral ever anywhere. 0:22:43.929 --> 0:22:45.889 I remember being drunk and stoned. 0:22:46.730 --> 0:22:49.409 We also pay a visit to Ken, an artist and 0:22:49.490 --> 0:22:52.649 an old boyfriend of Ellio's. The artist's life has been 0:22:52.689 --> 0:22:55.289 good to Ken. He looks far younger than his seventy 0:22:55.330 --> 0:22:55.969 five years. 0:22:56.449 --> 0:22:57.730 You haven't seen the clothes off. 0:22:58.129 --> 0:23:01.650 Gravity tends to do very nasty things to budys. 0:23:02.929 --> 0:23:05.090 Ken tells us about the trip he and Elio took 0:23:05.129 --> 0:23:08.329 to Mexico early on in their relationship. Ken had been 0:23:08.369 --> 0:23:10.129 going through a phase at the time where he was 0:23:10.169 --> 0:23:14.129 wearing green contact lenses. Elio had never seen Ken without them. 0:23:14.409 --> 0:23:16.609 I would always tell Ken how much he loved his 0:23:16.689 --> 0:23:17.810 beautiful green eyes. 0:23:18.209 --> 0:23:21.609 I said, shit, how am I going to tell him 0:23:22.290 --> 0:23:24.250 that these beautiful green eyes are fake? 0:23:25.889 --> 0:23:27.889 So I decided I'm not going to tell him. What 0:23:28.010 --> 0:23:29.689 the hell? 0:23:29.850 --> 0:23:32.929 So we go to Mexico and I got something in 0:23:33.010 --> 0:23:34.889 my eyes and they started bleeding. 0:23:35.810 --> 0:23:40.009 We have to go to a hospital. We got to 0:23:40.050 --> 0:23:40.570 the clinic. 0:23:41.330 --> 0:23:44.009 The guy patched my eyes up, said you'll be blind 0:23:44.010 --> 0:23:49.570 for twenty four hours. So the next day I took 0:23:49.609 --> 0:23:52.449 the patches off, and then Eliot's looking at me and he. 0:23:52.369 --> 0:23:57.369 Goes, oh my god. I said, what he said, your 0:23:57.409 --> 0:23:58.609 eyes changed color? 0:23:59.689 --> 0:24:01.250 So I tell this is perfect. 0:24:01.689 --> 0:24:03.649 I looked in the mirror and said, oh my god, 0:24:03.730 --> 0:24:07.369 they did. So that ended that. 0:24:07.409 --> 0:24:10.330 I don't know if he ever found out. 0:24:16.570 --> 0:24:19.090 Elliot melted everybody down that he met. 0:24:20.090 --> 0:24:23.330 He was so charming. I never met anyone you couldn't 0:24:23.369 --> 0:24:27.050 be mad at him. I tried so hard to be 0:24:27.129 --> 0:24:29.609 mad at him so many times, and you couldn't be 0:24:29.609 --> 0:24:30.370 mad at him. 0:24:31.209 --> 0:24:32.889 Ken directs his gaze at Vivianne. 0:24:33.490 --> 0:24:37.289 You're lucky, You're lucky to have had an uncle like Elleo. 0:24:39.369 --> 0:24:42.369 Vivian is basking in Ken's praise of her uncle. The 0:24:42.449 --> 0:24:46.689 room feels warm and friendly until Ken opens his mouth again. 0:24:47.209 --> 0:24:49.649 I have to say his family. 0:24:49.369 --> 0:24:53.689 Was horrible, Ken says his but he is still looking 0:24:53.689 --> 0:24:57.010 at Vivianne. He might as well have said your your 0:24:57.090 --> 0:25:00.969 family was horrible. Ken is being honest, but it sucks 0:25:01.010 --> 0:25:01.929 the air out of the room. 0:25:02.570 --> 0:25:07.449 Truly horrible. It was shocking to me. It was really 0:25:07.490 --> 0:25:10.689 shocking to me. When his mother came. She was so 0:25:10.929 --> 0:25:14.889 cold and so distant from l e Oh. 0:25:16.889 --> 0:25:21.810 I know, of course, Vivian knows. It's why she's here. 0:25:25.409 --> 0:25:31.530 Come on this way, Vivian, Marcelo and I are at 0:25:31.530 --> 0:25:34.689 my office all day long. Marcello's been playing to her 0:25:34.689 --> 0:25:37.449 guide to Eleo's old life. But I want him and 0:25:37.570 --> 0:25:39.930 Vivian to get a chance to connect one on one. 0:25:40.570 --> 0:25:43.329 Sit down, Okay, sit here, yeah, thank you. 0:25:43.649 --> 0:25:47.209 Marcello sits on the couch, knees pressed together. Vivian is 0:25:47.209 --> 0:25:50.369 seated across from him in an armchair, hands tucked between 0:25:50.409 --> 0:25:53.969 her thighs. She's been waiting all day, all day, and 0:25:54.050 --> 0:25:57.889 twenty five years for the chance to thank Marcello, and 0:25:57.929 --> 0:26:00.889 so she stumbles her way forward, beginning with the ways 0:26:00.889 --> 0:26:02.609 in which her family let Elo down. 0:26:03.649 --> 0:26:06.850 I feel like the family, I feel like there was 0:26:06.850 --> 0:26:11.130 like kind of like this like internalized shame. I don't know, 0:26:11.169 --> 0:26:13.570 It's like that side of the family couldn't really see 0:26:13.609 --> 0:26:16.489 past that that he was gay, and that was like 0:26:16.889 --> 0:26:21.329 that lasting memory was like that shape. 0:26:21.449 --> 0:26:22.970 Yeah, but I also feel like. 0:26:28.689 --> 0:26:32.009 Marcello interrupts Vivian before she can get very far, but 0:26:32.090 --> 0:26:35.489 almost immediately trails off. He looks down at his hands 0:26:35.490 --> 0:26:38.010 in his lap and adjusts his feet on the carpet. 0:26:38.689 --> 0:26:41.050 When he speaks again, he speaks softly. 0:26:42.850 --> 0:26:49.009 I feel compelled to say something. It would be simplistic 0:26:49.129 --> 0:26:54.769 to say that just because the family didn't accept his 0:26:55.090 --> 0:27:00.250 being gay, this difficulty is not all on your family side. 0:27:01.010 --> 0:27:04.929 That was also Elia's inability to be who he was 0:27:05.050 --> 0:27:06.690 fully really yeah. 0:27:07.050 --> 0:27:08.889 Yeah. 0:27:09.090 --> 0:27:12.210 According to Marcello, Eleo never fully embraced his own gay 0:27:12.209 --> 0:27:15.010 identity and so was never honest with the family about 0:27:15.050 --> 0:27:15.570 who he was. 0:27:16.290 --> 0:27:19.449 He was gay, had a partner for ten years, you know, 0:27:19.570 --> 0:27:22.850 he was HIV positive, So all of that sort of 0:27:23.889 --> 0:27:27.970 came out for the family side and the worst possible way. 0:27:29.209 --> 0:27:34.290 So there's a lot here of broken trust. 0:27:34.689 --> 0:27:37.129 Marcello's own family knew he was gay by the time 0:27:37.169 --> 0:27:39.850 he was in his late teens, knew that Eleo wasn't 0:27:39.889 --> 0:27:43.050 just a roommate. Marcello had been wanting Eleo to be 0:27:43.090 --> 0:27:47.129 more transparent with his family for years. Instead, when the 0:27:47.169 --> 0:27:50.050 family was around, Marcello says, Elo made him feel like 0:27:50.090 --> 0:27:53.490 a mistress, like he had to disappear. So as much 0:27:53.490 --> 0:27:57.210 as the family didn't acknowledge Marcello, Eleo didn't acknowledge Marcello 0:27:57.330 --> 0:28:01.129 to the family either. Although they were a couple, Eleo 0:28:01.250 --> 0:28:04.410 refused to fully commit to Marcello, continuing to date other 0:28:04.449 --> 0:28:09.330 people like Ken. It was painful for Marcello. In fact, 0:28:09.409 --> 0:28:11.609 Marceau admits that he'd been on the verge of breaking 0:28:11.689 --> 0:28:14.249 up with Elio when they found out he had AIDS. 0:28:15.449 --> 0:28:18.850 But made aue this ray of light. 0:28:19.010 --> 0:28:23.609 Being joyful also made him more difficult to pin down 0:28:24.250 --> 0:28:29.689 and taking responsibility and ownership for things that you do 0:28:30.369 --> 0:28:34.289 as you become a grin up. So I want to 0:28:34.330 --> 0:28:37.649 sort of take a bit of the weight from your family. 0:28:37.889 --> 0:28:41.209 Just there's a little bit on his side as well. 0:28:42.130 --> 0:28:43.170 There was his. 0:28:43.170 --> 0:28:50.490 Own like internal internals, paral boughs. So I think there's 0:28:50.730 --> 0:28:54.490 the dartful value, and there's the chicken Alio. There is 0:28:54.850 --> 0:28:58.610 all of this a sort of wrapped and this fantastic 0:28:58.690 --> 0:29:02.049 human being, you know, and he's just a person. 0:29:04.530 --> 0:29:10.529 I think I relate to maybe the chicken val. Like 0:29:10.650 --> 0:29:13.850 in my early twenties, like I started dating women and 0:29:15.650 --> 0:29:18.490 it was something that I shared with my dad and 0:29:19.690 --> 0:29:23.610 my brother. My mom was actually like going through some 0:29:23.730 --> 0:29:26.530 difficult stuff like in my twenties, And to be honest, 0:29:26.530 --> 0:29:30.210 she actually still doesn't know, but I guess she soon. 0:29:30.290 --> 0:29:35.930 Well, yes, listen, if you have white stuff, it's faster 0:29:36.090 --> 0:29:39.010 than you. But if you address it, it's a way 0:29:39.050 --> 0:29:41.050 of connecting, connecting. 0:29:42.290 --> 0:29:45.009 Marcella was encouraging Vivian to not hide who she is 0:29:45.410 --> 0:29:48.010 the way Alio did until he got sick. 0:29:48.610 --> 0:29:51.690 He's softened, He softened you know. 0:29:51.890 --> 0:29:56.930 I it might sound a little sanctimonious or piles on 0:29:56.970 --> 0:30:01.130 my part, you know, but I loved him throughout, thick 0:30:01.170 --> 0:30:07.170 and thin, and when he got sick, he allowed me 0:30:07.209 --> 0:30:10.450 to love him in a way that he couldn't before. 0:30:11.410 --> 0:30:12.170 We really. 0:30:14.530 --> 0:30:17.930 We're a couple in a way that we had never 0:30:17.970 --> 0:30:18.610 been before. 0:30:20.050 --> 0:30:23.330 From Marcelo, those last days offered some of his happiest 0:30:23.370 --> 0:30:28.050 memories of their relationship. Dying allowed Elio to finally grow up. 0:30:34.610 --> 0:30:38.250 Sometimes he would hallucinate and he would go to parties 0:30:38.930 --> 0:30:41.890 in his hand. I remember this one that was a 0:30:41.970 --> 0:30:46.810 party by the Russian embassy, and he was talking about 0:30:46.850 --> 0:30:49.010 all the people he was meeting at the Russian embassy, 0:30:49.050 --> 0:30:51.010 and he was in bed and he would do. 0:30:51.010 --> 0:30:55.170 This Marcello minds smoking a cigarette. 0:30:55.610 --> 0:30:58.850 But in that state. I remember one moment that is 0:30:59.970 --> 0:31:04.529 the most precious moment of all days before he died, 0:31:04.890 --> 0:31:09.529 I said to him, I love you, and he was 0:31:09.850 --> 0:31:16.290 he had no cognition, his smile like year to year, 0:31:17.890 --> 0:31:19.050 and I never forgot that. 0:31:20.490 --> 0:31:22.690 So I love. 0:31:22.650 --> 0:31:28.050 Him very very very much, and he loved me back. 0:31:28.850 --> 0:31:32.249 And I had doubts from time to time, but in 0:31:32.370 --> 0:31:45.690 that moment I felt it, do you want. 0:31:45.490 --> 0:31:46.170 To commit. 0:31:58.050 --> 0:32:00.530 I feel like not a lot of people would go 0:32:00.610 --> 0:32:04.810 to that length, you know, I mean my family didn't. 0:32:05.730 --> 0:32:07.930 But like I even wonder, like. 0:32:11.090 --> 0:32:14.170 Vivian struggles for the right words for the first time 0:32:14.250 --> 0:32:16.650 during the trip, She's trying to put herself not in 0:32:16.650 --> 0:32:19.810 Elio's shoes, but in Marcello's if. 0:32:19.650 --> 0:32:24.450 The rules were reversed, Like, do you think Elie would 0:32:24.450 --> 0:32:26.090 have done that for you? 0:32:29.810 --> 0:32:32.729 It's all as a question for me, ALA's ask that 0:32:35.730 --> 0:32:38.329 I don't know. I don't know. 0:32:40.730 --> 0:32:42.890 The fact that you like moved in and took care 0:32:42.930 --> 0:32:47.090 of him is it's it is really incredible in it. 0:32:48.209 --> 0:32:53.009 I think it just shows like how compassionate and like 0:32:53.250 --> 0:32:57.529 how loving of a person you are that you were 0:32:57.530 --> 0:33:02.930 able to do that. So yeah, thank you, thank you. 0:33:09.730 --> 0:33:12.050 I didn't expect to feel the wam feeling right now. 0:33:13.130 --> 0:33:15.370 That held a grudge for a while, and I was 0:33:15.450 --> 0:33:20.850 proud of the grudge. I was proud of being spurned, 0:33:20.890 --> 0:33:22.610 and I think I grew attached to that. 0:33:23.370 --> 0:33:24.170 I held that. 0:33:25.730 --> 0:33:28.210 As a kind of a badge of honor in a way, 0:33:29.050 --> 0:33:35.410 and I don't anymore. Also, I'm ready to receive it. 0:33:36.209 --> 0:33:40.529 I don't think I was so thank you. I really 0:33:40.530 --> 0:33:48.930 really appreciate that there's a poem by John Ashberry which 0:33:48.970 --> 0:33:52.450 I'm going to completely destroy and bustardize. But there's an 0:33:52.490 --> 0:33:58.850 image that I really love. He says, Somewhere someone is 0:33:58.930 --> 0:34:04.330 running desperately towards you, and I have this image of you, like. 0:34:06.450 --> 0:34:08.009 Not desperately, but sort of. 0:34:07.970 --> 0:34:18.890 Like when slow. I feel that too, because of you know, 0:34:18.930 --> 0:34:22.530 the nature of everything that had happened. It was like 0:34:22.570 --> 0:34:25.810 I didn't get that opportunity to have you, as you know, 0:34:25.850 --> 0:34:32.290 an uncle in my life. So can I claim you 0:34:32.450 --> 0:34:33.170 as my uncle? 0:34:37.610 --> 0:34:37.930 Okay? 0:34:38.290 --> 0:34:38.730 All right? 0:34:44.570 --> 0:34:47.650 Twenty five years ago it had been Marcelo asking to 0:34:47.650 --> 0:34:51.290 be let into the family, but now it's Vivian who's 0:34:51.290 --> 0:35:02.890 doing the asking. Marcelo moves forward to embrace her. In 0:35:02.930 --> 0:35:06.010 the end, Vivian receives an uncle as amazing as the 0:35:06.010 --> 0:35:07.330 one she always imagined. 0:35:07.970 --> 0:35:09.370 Remember you were I need? 0:35:09.450 --> 0:35:09.930 Did a girl? 0:35:11.090 --> 0:35:15.290 Remember your her was blondish? 0:35:15.690 --> 0:36:10.090 Would you like to remember your tiny. 0:35:45.770 --> 0:35:51.530 Now that the fernures returning to its good will home, 0:35:55.050 --> 0:35:59.410 Now that the last month's rent is skating with the 0:35:59.610 --> 0:36:01.290 damaged bottle. 0:36:01.330 --> 0:36:03.890 Take this moment to deserve. 0:36:05.930 --> 0:36:11.930 If we mess him and we tied felt for far 0:36:14.810 --> 0:36:17.170 from the Thames at Acid and leave. 0:36:21.770 --> 0:36:24.690 This episode of Heavyweight was produced by Stevie Lane along 0:36:24.730 --> 0:36:28.489 with me Jonathan Goldstein. Our senior producer is Khalila Holt. 0:36:29.050 --> 0:36:32.650 Special thanks to Emily Condon, Alex Bloomberg, Caitlin Kenny, mime, 0:36:32.730 --> 0:36:37.930 O'Donnell Lydia Polgreen, Rayhan Harmansey, Nobille Chalmpott, and Jackie Cohen. 0:36:38.650 --> 0:36:41.890 Bobby Lord mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows, 0:36:41.970 --> 0:36:45.130 John K. Sampson, Blue Dot Sessions, Michael Hurst, Hailey Shaw, 0:36:45.290 --> 0:36:48.250 and Bobby Lord. Additional music credits can be found on 0:36:48.290 --> 0:36:50.130 our website, Gimbletmedia dot. 0:36:50.050 --> 0:36:51.530 Com slash Heavyweight. 0:36:52.130 --> 0:36:54.290 Our theme song is by the Weaker Than's courtesy of 0:36:54.370 --> 0:36:57.090 Epitaph Records, and our ad music is by Hailey Shaw. 0:36:57.810 --> 0:37:00.530 Follow us on Twitter at Heavyweight or email us at 0:37:00.570 --> 0:37:04.010 Heavyweight at gimletmedia dot com. We'll be back with the 0:37:04.090 --> 0:37:05.770 new episode next week. 0:37:11.810 --> 0:37:13.890 Ba and