Godzilla Minus One: Moral Injury & Collective Trauma

<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster
<v Speaker 1>movies and psychoanalyze them.
<v Speaker 2>My name is Brittany.
<v Speaker 1>Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by.
<v Speaker 3>Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists.
<v Speaker 1>We're all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists
<v Speaker 1>who practice out of Chicago. Even though we are licensed
<v Speaker 1>mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for entertainment purposes
<v Speaker 1>and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and
<v Speaker 1>all forms.
<v Speaker 2>Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists,
<v Speaker 2>we aren't your therapist.
<v Speaker 4>If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find
<v Speaker 4>a local mental health provider.
<v Speaker 1>Hi. Everyone, So we are finally talking about a Godzilla movie.
<v Speaker 1>We are specifically discussing Godzilla Minus one. This movie came
<v Speaker 1>out in twenty twenty three. It's gotten a lot of
<v Speaker 1>well deserved record ignition, even Oscars, and it has been
<v Speaker 1>requested several times. I think as soon as it came
<v Speaker 1>out and started gaining traction, we were hearing about it.
<v Speaker 1>So we are finally discussing it. We will be specifically
<v Speaker 1>discussing trauma war driven trauma. As this movie takes place
<v Speaker 1>immediately after and then a few years following World War Two,
<v Speaker 1>we will also be talking about moral injury, specifically shame
<v Speaker 1>and guilt. Along with that, we'll also be talking about
<v Speaker 1>collective trauma as this was a time in which Japan
<v Speaker 1>was going through a major identity shift as a nation
<v Speaker 1>following their loss in World War Two.
<v Speaker 2>So we are following several people, but.
<v Speaker 1>Mostly Koichi Shikashima, who is a kami Kazi pilot in
<v Speaker 1>World War Two who can't follow through with the kami
<v Speaker 1>Kazi action. He comes back to a military base where
<v Speaker 1>the mechanics are saying that his plane had a problem
<v Speaker 1>and that's why he couldn't fulfill the kama Kaze action,
<v Speaker 1>and he witnesses Godzilla take out all his comrades pretty
<v Speaker 1>much there on that island, and then we follow him
<v Speaker 1>as he enters back into civilian society post the loss
<v Speaker 1>of Japan and World War Two. The how's the word
<v Speaker 1>I want to say, the mistreatment he receives and the
<v Speaker 1>judgment he receives from his community because of his inability
<v Speaker 1>to follow through with his Kamakazi obligation. And then we
<v Speaker 1>also witness him try to establish a life if he
<v Speaker 1>can post all these experiences and then you know, fight
<v Speaker 1>in Godzilla.
<v Speaker 2>So let's jump into kind of like the basics.
<v Speaker 1>So this in a lot of ways is a war movie,
<v Speaker 1>and that we are working with a lot of characters
<v Speaker 1>that are obviously dealing with the trauma that is war.
<v Speaker 1>And so I think what is most obvious, and I
<v Speaker 1>think what a lot of people liked about this movie
<v Speaker 1>when they first experienced it was how well it betrayed
<v Speaker 1>post traumatic stress disorder specifically as we I think most
<v Speaker 1>of us witness it through the main character, Kowichi. And
<v Speaker 1>so I'm wondering, I'm gonna throw it to you, Hannah,
<v Speaker 1>what were some of the things that you saw that
<v Speaker 1>fit the criteria of PTSD with our main character.
<v Speaker 4>So we see Koechi experience nightmares. We see him experience
<v Speaker 4>full body flashbacks where he actually thinks he's back in
<v Speaker 4>the situation that caused him to have a traumatic experience.
<v Speaker 2>We also see him feel like the world isn't real.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that because I
<v Speaker 1>know you're more familiar with association than I am. But
<v Speaker 1>it does seem like he has several moments of would
<v Speaker 1>you call that derealization. Yes, absolutely, Okay, could you explain
<v Speaker 1>a little bit for people listening what exactly I hate
<v Speaker 1>that word is so and I feel like I always
<v Speaker 1>have to like chew it when I say it.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I know, I know.
<v Speaker 1>So what exactly is the realization in the context of dissociating.
<v Speaker 4>Essentially, it's feeling like the world isn't real, the world
<v Speaker 4>around you is unreal.
<v Speaker 2>Or that you're not in the right timeline, or that
<v Speaker 2>things aren't what they seem to be, or that you're
<v Speaker 2>misperceiving things, or that things distort on you.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I've heard people say who experience geralization, it can
<v Speaker 1>feel like you're in a movie or that the world
<v Speaker 1>around you is plastic. But with him, he asks, He
<v Speaker 1>has those moments like you're saying, like where he has
<v Speaker 1>these flashbacks or these nightmares, and he is asking people
<v Speaker 1>like am I really alive?
<v Speaker 5>Yes?
<v Speaker 1>He seems to keep having this recurring traumatic symptom of
<v Speaker 1>like thinking maybe he really did die in the war?
<v Speaker 4>Yes, exactly, And we see him experience that many many
<v Speaker 4>different times, and we also see how it affects his
<v Speaker 4>family situation as well. We see how him you know,
<v Speaker 4>a part of having a PTSD diagnosis is also the
<v Speaker 4>depressive symptoms that come with that, and we see him
<v Speaker 4>really not wanting to connect with anyone. I think a
<v Speaker 4>part of that is because he doesn't feel real in
<v Speaker 4>some ways, and so I think that's a part of
<v Speaker 4>why he doesn't want to connect with anyone, and also
<v Speaker 4>because emotionally he feels like he's dead.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like a trippier aspect of PTSD that people
<v Speaker 1>don't talk about as much, that you can really feel
<v Speaker 1>disconnected from the world around you. Some contexts I didn't
<v Speaker 1>give when talking about the plot is when our main
<v Speaker 1>character comes back to his hometown, he immediately gets caught
<v Speaker 1>up with a woman named Nariko who is taking care
<v Speaker 1>of a baby that she just found. What's the baby's
<v Speaker 1>name again, Akiko Kiko. And so not only is he
<v Speaker 1>thrown back into society, he's also thrown into this odd
<v Speaker 1>family dynamic where Nurico just kind of like follows him
<v Speaker 1>home and then doesn't leave, and then it kind of
<v Speaker 1>goes to like two years later where they're all just
<v Speaker 1>kind of together.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, because I think in a lot of ways, I
<v Speaker 4>don't know that she could have survived without doing that.
<v Speaker 4>She couldn't oh for real, like that was a part
<v Speaker 4>of that was a part of survival mode for her
<v Speaker 4>and for a Kiko as well.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so, as you're saying, the part where a lot
<v Speaker 1>of I think a big part of how his PTSD
<v Speaker 1>also shows up, as you were saying, is that he's
<v Speaker 1>also part of this family unit that's not technically his
<v Speaker 1>but wants to be his, and he is not able
<v Speaker 1>to let them in. He really continues to keep them
<v Speaker 1>at arm's length for a good amount of time, both
<v Speaker 1>Noriico and Akiko, even though they very clearly care about
<v Speaker 1>him and they don't see him the way he sees himself.
<v Speaker 1>A criteria of PTSD can be negative thoughts about self,
<v Speaker 1>a lot of hopelessness, helplessness, things like that, and across
<v Speaker 1>the board we see I think every.
<v Speaker 2>Symptom negative alterations to cognitions is the formal DSM language
<v Speaker 2>for it, and he clearly has those all over the place.
<v Speaker 2>He persistently sees himself as this shameful, undeserving goblin of
<v Speaker 2>a human and he keeps himself restricted from connecting to
<v Speaker 2>other people because of the amount of shame, guilt, blame
<v Speaker 2>he places on himself. He feels responsible. Part of his
<v Speaker 2>nightmares are seeing his parents burn in the fire bombings
<v Speaker 2>that happened in and around Tokyo. America was not kind
<v Speaker 2>to Japan. He in part of his flashbacks, recognizes his
<v Speaker 2>parents and most of the people in his neighborhood and
<v Speaker 2>why his entire neighborhood is decimated is because of firebombings,
<v Speaker 2>not the nuclear attacks. He's not in the cities that
<v Speaker 2>were nuclear attacked, but his city was firebombed and recognizing that.
<v Speaker 2>Part of him not completing his mission in his mind
<v Speaker 2>is the consequences that his family died and then he's
<v Speaker 2>left alone and that Japan lost the war. He places
<v Speaker 2>a good deal that blame on himself.
<v Speaker 5>Let's take our first break here and be at back.
<v Speaker 2>As always.
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<v Speaker 5>So thank you, all.
<v Speaker 1>Right, Ben, So, where you were going is going into
<v Speaker 1>the cultural context and the moral injury aspect of specifically
<v Speaker 1>his PTSD, because what you're starting to go into is
<v Speaker 1>the context that is very specific to this situation, to Japan,
<v Speaker 1>to being a kamikaze, to the situation that Armin character's in,
<v Speaker 1>where he gets blamed repeatedly by people around him that
<v Speaker 1>it is his faults that this stuff didn't happen. Like
<v Speaker 1>when he shows up in his neighborhood, he gets smacked
<v Speaker 1>around by the neighbor Ko, Samiko.
<v Speaker 5>You're really great with these names, girl, I appreciate it.
<v Speaker 1>He gets smacked around from Semiko and she pretty much says, like,
<v Speaker 1>my kids are dead because you are a coward. The
<v Speaker 1>fact that you exist and you're staying in front of
<v Speaker 1>me means that you're a piece of shit and a coward.
<v Speaker 2>Yep.
<v Speaker 5>And because of you, my kids are dead.
<v Speaker 1>And he gets the pretty much the same reception by
<v Speaker 1>Tachibana when he touches down in his plane the very beginning,
<v Speaker 1>when they realize that his plane doesn't have any problems
<v Speaker 1>and that he.
<v Speaker 2>Was he chickened out of his mission, he was a coward.
<v Speaker 2>As far as how he's seeing himself, he is a
<v Speaker 2>product of his society. That's the voice he uses. She
<v Speaker 2>is an externalization of that and represents the cultural value,
<v Speaker 2>which is important, but remembering that that is internal and external.
<v Speaker 2>The voice of oppression from inside. Negative alterations to cognitions
<v Speaker 2>and mood are the internal mm hmm. The societal crushing
<v Speaker 2>from the outside is the shaming, yes, but the guilt
<v Speaker 2>is over his own inaction, and recognizing shame is generally
<v Speaker 2>for what we did do. Guilt is what we didn't.
<v Speaker 2>With Kuchi, one of the things it's important to recognize
<v Speaker 2>that he's going to have the internal and the external
<v Speaker 2>pressures and holding him accountable for what he was unable
<v Speaker 2>to do and the cowardice he showed. He it's important
<v Speaker 2>to remember that he not only failed once, but he
<v Speaker 2>failed twice. Right at the beginning of the film, when
<v Speaker 2>he lands his plane, he is retreating from his mission,
<v Speaker 2>which is understandable, but don't get me wrong. Like his
<v Speaker 2>mission is to blow himself and his plane up attacking
<v Speaker 2>an American ship. That's his mission. He is not expected
<v Speaker 2>to survive, which culturally is supposed to be a tremendous
<v Speaker 2>act of honor. However, human instinct and the culturation don't
<v Speaker 2>always agree. As the prime directive if any living creature
<v Speaker 2>is to stay alive, and when you're being asked to
<v Speaker 2>do something that makes you unalive, as honorable or not,
<v Speaker 2>as a culture may present it. When it comes to
<v Speaker 2>the moment of and knowing you're going to die if
<v Speaker 2>you do it, your body and your mind may disagree
<v Speaker 2>with your culturation. Yeah, slangle.
<v Speaker 1>People always say if that ever happened to me, I
<v Speaker 1>would do this, and it's like maybe, but you're not
<v Speaker 1>going to know for sure until something like that happens
<v Speaker 1>to you.
<v Speaker 2>Correct, Correct, I cannot stand that. Yeah, the number of
<v Speaker 2>people that walk around with that nonsense, like, well, if
<v Speaker 2>somebody broke into my house like blah blah blah, you
<v Speaker 2>do exactly whatever you had to. Yeah, you don't know
<v Speaker 2>what you would do. However, whoever broke into your house
<v Speaker 2>was six foot eight and built like a brick shit
<v Speaker 2>house and caught you unawares. You ain't going to be
<v Speaker 2>who you think you're going to be. Yeah, because if
<v Speaker 2>that person thoroughly dominates you, you're going to lose that
<v Speaker 2>and you don't know how that's going to feel and
<v Speaker 2>what you're going to think or do and what choices
<v Speaker 2>you will make when you have to because when you
<v Speaker 2>don't have to, you don't access the same structures of
<v Speaker 2>your brain. You just don't. And you know, he Kuchi
<v Speaker 2>here in this perceived accurately that there wasn't a lot
<v Speaker 2>of war left. The war was clearly lost by this point,
<v Speaker 2>the war was in its last days. This attack and
<v Speaker 2>loss of his life would have no purpose. And with
<v Speaker 2>that knowledge, he claims that there's a malfunction with his
<v Speaker 2>weapon lands his plane on a remote repair island. However,
<v Speaker 2>as the as you guys mentioned before, the mechanics who
<v Speaker 2>are there are like, ah, so sir, we can't find
<v Speaker 2>any problems with your plane. Yeah, and I'm sure he's
<v Speaker 2>not the only one, probably not.
<v Speaker 1>You know, I was reading when I was reading a
<v Speaker 1>little bit about kamikaze piloting prior.
<v Speaker 5>To this episode.
<v Speaker 1>They were talked about that and how people would come
<v Speaker 1>back a lot, and how one guy even came back
<v Speaker 1>so many times that I think he ended up getting executed.
<v Speaker 2>Displaying cowardice would not be tolerated in Japanese culture, especially
<v Speaker 2>not within their warrior ethos, just would not be tolerated.
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, it'd get executed. That makes sense for what
<v Speaker 2>would have been cultural appropriate at that time and throughout
<v Speaker 2>much of their history, showing that kind of cowardice in
<v Speaker 2>the face of an enemy would not be looked upon favorably,
<v Speaker 2>not in any military but especially not theirs. And not
<v Speaker 2>only does he do that, so he fails the country,
<v Speaker 2>but when Godzilla attacks, the mechanics tell him to go
<v Speaker 2>get in his plane because the twenty millimeter cannon on
<v Speaker 2>it can kill anything. They tell him. He gets into
<v Speaker 2>the plane, and he does not fire his weapon on Godzilla.
<v Speaker 2>And because he does not fire and does not follow
<v Speaker 2>through with the plan, that is a second military action
<v Speaker 2>that he does not take out of cowardice. So he
<v Speaker 2>sees it. It's not my words, that's me speaking through
<v Speaker 2>his right. I don't hold any blame for somebody that
<v Speaker 2>doesn't do something that will make them die.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and something that is also so totally removed from
<v Speaker 1>how we behave as humans outside of.
<v Speaker 2>War, correct and war or attack, any life or death situation.
<v Speaker 2>Any assumption that I understand how he was feeling, how
<v Speaker 2>he behaved, how his senses were reading the situation is unfair.
<v Speaker 2>So I am echoing the voice that I think he
<v Speaker 2>is Shane showing himself. I just want to be super
<v Speaker 2>clear about that it's my it's not my values, it's
<v Speaker 2>his that I'm echoing. Yeah, because the reality, like we
<v Speaker 2>establish is that someone who is about who understands that
<v Speaker 2>any action I take against a monster here is the
<v Speaker 2>same example I gave of some six foot eight brick
<v Speaker 2>shit house of a dude breaking into your house. And
<v Speaker 2>no matter what ideas you think you have about yourself,
<v Speaker 2>your body's going to tell you you're going to lose. Unless
<v Speaker 2>you are also built like a professional wrestler, you're in trouble.
<v Speaker 2>And if you can't get to a weapon to equalize
<v Speaker 2>that fight, you're in trouble, and your body will recognize
<v Speaker 2>that and you will submit surrender. Fawn talk. You ain't
<v Speaker 2>going to be Captain Badass roundhouse kicking this dude in
<v Speaker 2>the face, because what you're going to see about him
<v Speaker 2>is that he is a clear head and shoulders taller
<v Speaker 2>than you and much broader, and that if you get
<v Speaker 2>in a physical fight, you're going to lose. Now translate
<v Speaker 2>that to a giant fucking monster.
<v Speaker 4>That also that he's seeing for the first time, that
<v Speaker 4>they're all seeing for the first time. It would make
<v Speaker 4>a lot of sense that anyone would not be able
<v Speaker 4>to follow through with what they needed to do well.
<v Speaker 1>Also, I would say for him, it's not that something
<v Speaker 1>bonkers is happening in front of him that his brain's
<v Speaker 1>trying to process like a godzilla has risen from the sea.
<v Speaker 1>He also is in the middle of a full trauma
<v Speaker 1>experience already, like he is going through something like he's
<v Speaker 1>fresh off of coming back from the Kama Kaze experience,
<v Speaker 1>you know, like getting out of his plane. So his
<v Speaker 1>brain's probably already in a frozen state, and then this happens,
<v Speaker 1>so of course he cannot.
<v Speaker 2>Follow through.
<v Speaker 1>No, his brain is like scrambled eggs.
<v Speaker 2>Correct, He's already compromised by yes, where he's at, and
<v Speaker 2>when emergencies arise, we can come in and out of that.
<v Speaker 2>That's part of what structural association is about, is we can,
<v Speaker 2>pretty much, no matter what we're going through, respond to
<v Speaker 2>a threat. How effectively we are able to do that
<v Speaker 2>is a different discussion. But once he has already displayed
<v Speaker 2>that freeze and flight response instead of fight, which he
<v Speaker 2>was supposed to cultually engage, it makes sense that he
<v Speaker 2>found that again quickly when faced yet again with insurmountable
<v Speaker 2>odds to which his action would not likely do anything.
<v Speaker 2>The important thing to know is that because he didn't
<v Speaker 2>follow through the plan, those men that courageously started firing
<v Speaker 2>small arms to distract the monster immediately died. Yeah, and
<v Speaker 2>that is really rough. They died, and Kouichi is the
<v Speaker 2>only other survivor of that attack, and he was hobbled,
<v Speaker 2>He was massively injured because he I think got a
<v Speaker 2>stepped on or thrown mm hmm.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well it's him and the Tachibana are like the
<v Speaker 1>two people that make it out and get rescued.
<v Speaker 2>Tachibana right, yes, yeah, but he got his foot was Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>Tachibana's foot was broken, is broken and mangled like he
<v Speaker 2>got stepped on or thrown yea by Godzilla Wally. They
<v Speaker 2>were shooting rifles and then he was supposed to get
<v Speaker 2>in Kuici supposed to get in his plane and fire
<v Speaker 2>the cannon at it, which was the best weapon they
<v Speaker 2>had available, but still would have had no effect, as
<v Speaker 2>we learned later, it would have done nothing. Yeah, and
<v Speaker 2>that's the truth, and his senses would perceive that like, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>I don't think this is gonna matter either, So he
<v Speaker 2>freezes and hides, which is probably what would have happened
<v Speaker 2>in real life, somebody looked at that and maybe they
<v Speaker 2>would have fought, maybe not, maybe they would have used
<v Speaker 2>the opportunity to hide. But that's not a conscious choice.
<v Speaker 2>A conscious choice that is trained out of you can
<v Speaker 2>override that sometimes, but once the odds tip beyond your training,
<v Speaker 2>like something like a monster you see, your senses will
<v Speaker 2>but reoverride training and throw you back into a response
<v Speaker 2>from your body that says nope. We assess that is
<v Speaker 2>a nope nope, and you freeze, You shut down, and
<v Speaker 2>go ah, I'm not attacking that unless it sees me,
<v Speaker 2>and right now it doesn't suit me. So I'm a
<v Speaker 2>hide because hiding makes more sense based on the sensory
<v Speaker 2>inputs I'm getting from my eyeballs. And it's really important
<v Speaker 2>that we understand that. Because senses communicate directly to the
<v Speaker 2>right side of our brain, which is where the response lives.
<v Speaker 2>Reaction is based on perception. Reality is from perception. So
<v Speaker 2>when we see that he froze, he froze twice. The
<v Speaker 2>amount of guilt he experiences not only the theoretical the
<v Speaker 2>cultural side, but the immediate of watching knowing I failed,
<v Speaker 2>then I failed again in the same way, and this
<v Speaker 2>time I actively watched people get devoured, mangled, destroyed by
<v Speaker 2>a kaiju.
<v Speaker 1>Well, and then the added layer two of survivor guilt too.
<v Speaker 1>He's the only one besides Tatsubana that makes it out
<v Speaker 1>of that situation. So it's all these layers of guilt
<v Speaker 1>and shame that are just piling on top of him.
<v Speaker 2>Correct, And because Tashibana survives when they're on that boat
<v Speaker 2>ride back. Yeah, one, he had an incredulous experience that
<v Speaker 2>only one other person knows about. But he also can't
<v Speaker 2>talk about it, Yeah, or he'll seem insane. That's also
<v Speaker 2>very true. He can't really say why, and he is
<v Speaker 2>now bound by shame and guilt to not talk about
<v Speaker 2>it and practicality that hey, there's a giant dinosaur monster
<v Speaker 2>that lives on the islands. Notice he says that to
<v Speaker 2>no one, but that is the event that really drove
<v Speaker 2>the dagger into him with PTSD.
<v Speaker 1>And also the secrecy too of not telling people are
<v Speaker 1>having to be very cautious about telling people that he
<v Speaker 1>was a kamikaze pilot. So it's a lot of things
<v Speaker 1>he's keeping inside to avoid the consequences of sharing that
<v Speaker 1>with someone else and how that will change how they
<v Speaker 1>see him, takes.
<v Speaker 2>Him a long time to talk about it.
<v Speaker 4>I think he's still so activated on such a regular basis,
<v Speaker 4>I having those nightmares. It seems like he's having him
<v Speaker 4>every night.
<v Speaker 1>Well, he says, the war isn't over for me yet, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>which is such a beautifully simplistic way to say what
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about, which is that it is haunting him
<v Speaker 1>and he is still in that stuck place with his identity,
<v Speaker 1>with his shame and guilt. Because as we see, like
<v Speaker 1>through the course of the few years that the movie covers,
<v Speaker 1>which I thought was really interesting that people like his
<v Speaker 1>neighbor lady name again Sumiko, smiko're so awesome, Samiko. There's
<v Speaker 1>people around him that forgive him, that grow to love
<v Speaker 1>him and care about him.
<v Speaker 5>You know, people around him, they're they're able.
<v Speaker 2>To shift, including Sumacole. Yeah that's what I mean.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, even her, who was a heinous to him, understandably
<v Speaker 1>so when he first got back, everyone warms to him
<v Speaker 1>and feels better about him, but he still can't feel
<v Speaker 1>better about himself, which I think is also like an
<v Speaker 1>interesting thing to note that even when everyone around you
<v Speaker 1>is giving you contradictory information, that internalized stuff can still
<v Speaker 1>eat at you for as long as it will.
<v Speaker 2>That's what those negative alterations are. That's exactly what they
<v Speaker 2>are and why it's so potent and powerful and why
<v Speaker 2>PTSD isn't the same as depression. Depression does that, but
<v Speaker 2>PTSD does it with added life because depression is generally speaking,
<v Speaker 2>a chemical deficiency that causes those feelings to exist. And
<v Speaker 2>there's not always an explanation. Sometimes there is, right, sometimes
<v Speaker 2>something happened that causes that. But depending on what that
<v Speaker 2>something that happened was, that's where we get in the
<v Speaker 2>kid or the criteria for PTSD.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because with PTSD, the parts of it that are
<v Speaker 1>you know, having low self worth things like that, those
<v Speaker 1>are connected to an actual experience correct that you had.
<v Speaker 1>So it is a lot harder to challenge that idea internally,
<v Speaker 1>whereas when it's depression you can kind of hang on
<v Speaker 1>to more idea. This is coming from like an irrational,
<v Speaker 1>highly emotional place where my brain is working against me.
<v Speaker 1>And with this it's like, oh no, like something has happened.
<v Speaker 1>Like I always told my clients, like it's like a
<v Speaker 1>door in your brain has been kicked open and it's
<v Speaker 1>never going to close. So there's like a reality. Now
<v Speaker 1>that you are aware of that, you're never not going
<v Speaker 1>to be aware of whether it's I'm not as safe
<v Speaker 1>as I thought I was, I'm not as brave as
<v Speaker 1>I thought I was, which I think is the situation
<v Speaker 1>with our main character. And you will never not know
<v Speaker 1>that or that experience will never not be a reality
<v Speaker 1>that's true to you versus someone who hasn't had that
<v Speaker 1>door kicked open.
<v Speaker 5>They can still live in that sort of.
<v Speaker 1>Surrealist idea of like, well, that could happen hypothetically, but
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't necessarily feel real to me.
<v Speaker 2>And for someone that just said she didn't understand derealization,
<v Speaker 2>super great, you just explained it.
<v Speaker 1>No, I know it, but I always well, I always
<v Speaker 1>get derealization, depersonalization confused the word. Yeah, so I always
<v Speaker 1>want to double check that with someone like Hannah, who
<v Speaker 1>I know is up dissociations academic but yeah, we're best friends.
<v Speaker 2>Me too, girl, me too. Yeah, because that dissociation component
<v Speaker 2>is critical. All the criteria, all five categories for PTSD
<v Speaker 2>are necessary to make the diagnosis. They don't have to
<v Speaker 2>have all the sub categories, but they have to have
<v Speaker 2>negative mood depression. They have to have avoidance. They have
<v Speaker 2>to have some degree of sensory disturbance, they have to
<v Speaker 2>have some degree of sleep disturbance. There has to be
<v Speaker 2>several things that add up.
<v Speaker 1>And like I said, with him, what's also so upsetting,
<v Speaker 1>like if you had to work with him, is that
<v Speaker 1>all these negative thoughts he's having about himself that come
<v Speaker 1>from this experience are then being reinforced by the environment too,
<v Speaker 1>where people do hate him and slap him around and
<v Speaker 1>scream at him and say it should have been you,
<v Speaker 1>And so that only further they're obviously strengthens these negative
<v Speaker 1>self components and makes it hard to question them.
<v Speaker 5>It just feels really real, and.
<v Speaker 4>I think that he is in a place where it's
<v Speaker 4>hard to believe anyone about who he is and.
<v Speaker 2>What he is.
<v Speaker 4>People really feel like, oh, if you just be positive,
<v Speaker 4>if you just do this. People don't have the capacity
<v Speaker 4>to absorb something positive. When the worst fucking thing that's
<v Speaker 4>ever happened to a person can happen, they don't have
<v Speaker 4>the connection to that because now they're not real or
<v Speaker 4>they're dead inside or whatever. It's not just something that
<v Speaker 4>is PTSD is not something that's just gonna magically fucking
<v Speaker 4>go away.
<v Speaker 5>It's not something that.
<v Speaker 2>You can just be positive about.
<v Speaker 5>That's not how it works.
<v Speaker 4>That's just that's just not that's not even close to
<v Speaker 4>touching what actually needs to happen when we're working with
<v Speaker 4>people who struggle through trauma, and he.
<v Speaker 2>Certainly, and we're also seeing him.
<v Speaker 4>Something else that I think is beautiful about the movie
<v Speaker 4>is that we're also seeing him have like the initial
<v Speaker 4>experience right as soon as he gets back, he's shamed automatically.
<v Speaker 4>He has PTSD symptoms very clearly, and then we get
<v Speaker 4>to see him over time and we get to see
<v Speaker 4>how maybe those symptoms have changed a little bit, but
<v Speaker 4>he's still experiencing pretty intense PTSD symptoms for how long
<v Speaker 4>it's been from the time that things happen. And he
<v Speaker 4>also probably fits complex trauma, oh, certainly because of how
<v Speaker 4>many things happen all right in a row, right, because
<v Speaker 4>so he has so the cowardice piece those two things
<v Speaker 4>that happened. Then he all he sees all those men die,
<v Speaker 4>then he comes back. Then he comes back, finds out
<v Speaker 4>that his parents are dead, his town is demolished, and
<v Speaker 4>his neighbor doesn't like him anymore, demolished, and his country
<v Speaker 4>is also demolished.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely, So.
<v Speaker 4>Everything every rug that he is standing on got yanked
<v Speaker 4>out from underneath him and then like buried him in
<v Speaker 4>a hole.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all the foundations, all the pillars of his identity. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>we're destroyed. Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like even just like the layer of demoralization of
<v Speaker 1>being on the losing side of a world war that
<v Speaker 1>we picked the wrong side and we were punished for.
<v Speaker 2>It, and in their case of Japan, quite literally picked
<v Speaker 2>instigated to the point that their admiral, their chief, you know,
<v Speaker 2>leader of war, Emiallyammoto, said, I fear we have awoken
<v Speaker 2>a sleeping giant.
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I think you're definitely right Handah, it's an
<v Speaker 1>ongoing thing for him because he's still having to live
<v Speaker 1>in the town that is wrecked and having to figure
<v Speaker 1>out how to make money and how to support this
<v Speaker 1>woman and child that just like literally show up. So
<v Speaker 1>it is like the stress is ongoing and.
<v Speaker 2>Epic that not only does he not deserve, but if
<v Speaker 2>he lets them in, he will poison them, yeah, with
<v Speaker 2>his badness. So it's not that it's one more than
<v Speaker 2>the other, it's that it's both simultaneously, and that is
<v Speaker 2>an extraordinarily complex component of his traumatic symptoms and presentation
<v Speaker 2>and why it's so stuck and why Hannah is one
<v Speaker 2>thousand percent correct that he meets the criteria for complex
<v Speaker 2>PTSD because the amount of events that happened, the degree
<v Speaker 2>to which they happened, and the profound terribleness and overwhelming
<v Speaker 2>destruction of everything. But there is yet another component that
<v Speaker 2>we need to talk about with why, and we'll talk
<v Speaker 2>about that after a break. So the one component we
<v Speaker 2>haven't talked about, though we may have alluded to, is
<v Speaker 2>called moral injury. Moral injury is a component that affects people.
<v Speaker 2>And I'm going to go ahead and read some of
<v Speaker 2>the things from the VA here from PTSD VA dot
<v Speaker 2>gov because understanding why sometimes some events that people go
<v Speaker 2>through stay with them on what almost seems like a
<v Speaker 2>spiritual shaming level fits this movie and this character to
<v Speaker 2>at he has violated things on levels beyond just humanity.
<v Speaker 2>He has violated things to a spiritual level with himself.
<v Speaker 2>From the VA, in traumatic or unusually stressful circumstances, people
<v Speaker 2>may perpetuate, fail to prevent, or witness events that contradict
<v Speaker 2>deeply held moral beliefs and expectations. That sounds pretty much
<v Speaker 2>like our friend here does it not, it really does.
<v Speaker 2>When someone does something that goes against their beliefs, this
<v Speaker 2>is often referred to as an active commission, and when
<v Speaker 2>they fail to do something in line with their beliefs,
<v Speaker 2>that is referred to as an act of omission. We
<v Speaker 2>have both. Individuals may also experience betrayal from leadership, others
<v Speaker 2>in positions of power, or peers that can result in
<v Speaker 2>adverse outcomes. Moral injury is the distressing psychological, behavioral, social,
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes spiritual aftermath of exposure to such events. A
<v Speaker 2>moral injury can occur in response to acting or witnessing
<v Speaker 2>behaviors that go against an individual's values and moral beliefs,
<v Speaker 2>and they go on later to describe guilt, shame, disgust,
<v Speaker 2>and anger that are some of the hallmark reactions. And
<v Speaker 2>moral injuries also typically impact in individual's spirituality to the
<v Speaker 2>point that a person may have difficulty understanding how one's
<v Speaker 2>beliefs and relationships with a higher power can be true.
<v Speaker 2>Given the horrific event the person experience, leading to uncertainty
<v Speaker 2>even about their own previously held beliefs, it is quite
<v Speaker 2>a powerful, overwhelming sense of destruction of self. The events
<v Speaker 2>that we are describing pretty much nail this to a tee.
<v Speaker 2>He has not acted in the way he is deeply
<v Speaker 2>ingrained and sworn to do. Pilots are officers, they are
<v Speaker 2>leaders of the military. He is looked at in a
<v Speaker 2>position of honor that his sacrifice in war can take
<v Speaker 2>out an entire aircraft carrier. That aircraft carrier is the
<v Speaker 2>only way that the planes that carried firebombs could get
<v Speaker 2>to his city. So how this all connects militarily is
<v Speaker 2>pretty important because had he been able to take out
<v Speaker 2>one of those carriers, there's a logical leap that his
<v Speaker 2>brain can make a connection to maybe I could have
<v Speaker 2>prevented my parents dying.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which is why his neighbor says that to him too,
<v Speaker 1>like my kids would be alive if you weren't here,
<v Speaker 1>because of the importance that his position.
<v Speaker 2>Was correct, and also her anger and grief that her
<v Speaker 2>children are dead and everything is destroyed. She wasn't a
<v Speaker 2>war fighter, so she was placing her hopes and beliefs
<v Speaker 2>and whatever propaganda was coming her way. Because don't forget,
<v Speaker 2>this is the forties. The world is so vastly different
<v Speaker 2>on Internet communicating things, people were shown and told and
<v Speaker 2>believed what the government wanted them to know, and it's
<v Speaker 2>likely they believed. I don't know exactly what the propaganda
<v Speaker 2>of Japan was during World War Two, but I assume
<v Speaker 2>it was not we're losing the war.
<v Speaker 1>Oh, of course not. I don't think that's anyone's propaganda.
<v Speaker 1>Is hey guys, are we the bad guys?
<v Speaker 2>Question work. But once the American military started capturing the
<v Speaker 2>islands in the Pacific and moving up and getting closer
<v Speaker 2>and closer and seizing territory and figured out how to
<v Speaker 2>engineer the B twenty fours to get to be able
<v Speaker 2>to take off from aircraft carriers, which they detailed pretty
<v Speaker 2>well in Pearl Harbor, the movie, that really changed a
<v Speaker 2>lot about what the Japanese thought and how accessible they
<v Speaker 2>thought they were. And the America was developing to attack that.
<v Speaker 2>We were working on training bats, and the bats would
<v Speaker 2>roost in the eaves. So if the bats land on
<v Speaker 2>the homes, then you detonate the bombs, sure, which means
<v Speaker 2>they're not attacking in a way that can be there
<v Speaker 2>can be any safety.
<v Speaker 1>From I mean, it's an extraordinarily and humane method.
<v Speaker 2>It's pretty bad. Yeah, it's pretty bad because you're not
<v Speaker 2>attacking military.
<v Speaker 1>Targets the weh, you're attacking civilians, correct, and you're kin
<v Speaker 1>a lot of bats.
<v Speaker 5>Also true.
<v Speaker 2>But if you can connect the dots of what kind
<v Speaker 2>of psychological warfare that was being undertaken against the country,
<v Speaker 2>you can understand why she's so angry and why people
<v Speaker 2>who are supposed to be their national heroes letting her down.
<v Speaker 5>Oh sure of course.
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah made her so furious because his betrayal and
<v Speaker 2>he's alive. Oh yeah.
<v Speaker 1>I think even for that reason alone, I could see
<v Speaker 1>her being upset with him absolutely, like how why are
<v Speaker 1>you here? And my kids aren't correct, no matter what
<v Speaker 1>his position was in the army, but I think like
<v Speaker 1>the cultural significance of his role in the army, it's
<v Speaker 1>just a further oh, navy, it's just a further plight,
<v Speaker 1>you know, blight on the situation.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, correct, all of which add up to he knows
<v Speaker 2>all this. Notice he doesn't fight her, he doesn't tell
<v Speaker 2>her she's wrong, not the ones.
<v Speaker 1>Oh I'm sure he's like this is correct. Yeah, do
<v Speaker 1>whatever you want with me, bay, I like, yeah.
<v Speaker 2>Which he does, and he does it to himself.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, which I think is important to note that that's
<v Speaker 1>also a way sometimes that people can engage in self
<v Speaker 1>harm self destructive behavior when they're in these places with themselves,
<v Speaker 1>whether it's PTSD, your depression. It's not necessarily the kind
<v Speaker 1>of self harm that we think of, like intentionally hurting
<v Speaker 1>yourself via cutting or something. But it can be this
<v Speaker 1>kind of thing too, which is like letting other people
<v Speaker 1>hurt you like this, or being in situations where you
<v Speaker 1>will be hurt.
<v Speaker 2>Correct And it's such an extraordinary place of negativity that
<v Speaker 2>comes from the shame and guilt that they're doing it
<v Speaker 2>because they deserve to be punished for what they did
<v Speaker 2>and didn't do, and that they will never be cleared
<v Speaker 2>of it. And when he's saying the war isn't over
<v Speaker 2>for me, is because encoded in him was a set
<v Speaker 2>endpoint for the war, and he never completed his mission.
<v Speaker 2>Now he never can. So that part of him that
<v Speaker 2>he created dissociatively to assign value and meaning to his
<v Speaker 2>own destruction through kamikaze bombing, he never got to do.
<v Speaker 2>So all the suffering and everything that he went through
<v Speaker 2>is a constant reminder and condition of threat and shame
<v Speaker 2>and guilt, the threat ongoing. I didn't do it, so
<v Speaker 2>I'm always bad and I can never be accepted back
<v Speaker 2>into society.
<v Speaker 5>And I can't do anything to fix it.
<v Speaker 2>And I can't do anything to fix it, and if
<v Speaker 2>I'm found out, I may be killed.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, or even more shunned than I already am.
<v Speaker 2>So this beautiful woman and this beautiful child that calls
<v Speaker 2>me daddy, Yeah, I tell her not to, even though
<v Speaker 2>she doesn't have anyone else, And even his friends tell him,
<v Speaker 2>why are you saying I'm not your dad?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?
<v Speaker 2>Why are you being mean? Yeah?
<v Speaker 5>Exactly?
<v Speaker 2>They told me that. Do you know how damaging that is? Yeah?
<v Speaker 2>Do you know how damaging that is to that child?
<v Speaker 2>She thinks you're your dad? You're dad? To her? You
<v Speaker 2>are dead? What are you doing? You're dead? You can't
<v Speaker 2>tell her you're not dead.
<v Speaker 1>And this is the part that because it's him that's
<v Speaker 1>still so in his lia trauma, that you can't really
<v Speaker 1>access him by trying to make that kind of argument, right, Like,
<v Speaker 1>you can't rationalize necessarily because.
<v Speaker 4>You can't shame him for that behavior. He's already shaming
<v Speaker 4>and guilty himself.
<v Speaker 2>Because he's like, well, a piece of shit, So it
<v Speaker 2>makes sense he's not deserving and recognizing that he's so
<v Speaker 2>deeply severed that he can't. He can't survive without or
<v Speaker 2>he can't he can't survive forgiveness because no forgiveness will
<v Speaker 2>be real. He can never trust it because he knows
<v Speaker 2>that he committed unforgivable sense he used to be willing.
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's corny to say this, he used to forgive
<v Speaker 1>himself first, but that is the truth. He has to
<v Speaker 1>be open to the idea that he is forgivable.
<v Speaker 2>But part of where that gets stuck is in the
<v Speaker 2>idea of structural association, recognizing that people form parts to
<v Speaker 2>survive the circumstances they're under. The more extreme the circumstance,
<v Speaker 2>the more extreme and or limited the part a war
<v Speaker 2>fighter part of a human exists only for war fighting.
<v Speaker 2>The things that you have to do to survive war.
<v Speaker 2>The point of moral injury and understanding it and processing
<v Speaker 2>it with people is that the things you have to
<v Speaker 2>do to survive these extreme circumstances require an extreme response.
<v Speaker 2>A military officer may have to order a company of
<v Speaker 2>men a thousand people to their death so that nineteen
<v Speaker 2>thousand more have a chance to survive. But these thousand
<v Speaker 2>are not going to and they will know that, and
<v Speaker 2>they will know that they are pawns and they have
<v Speaker 2>to order them anyway. The complexity of this is immense.
<v Speaker 2>In his case in this movie, he had to order
<v Speaker 2>himself to death and he didn't and now he's facing
<v Speaker 2>the reckoning and he's shaming himself out of that. So
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a critical thing to mention. We could
<v Speaker 2>go on a deep, huge dive and talk about moral
<v Speaker 2>injury probably for hours, but recognizing that that is the
<v Speaker 2>component that is missing. If you don't understand that there
<v Speaker 2>is a word for that, you do now. And I
<v Speaker 2>recommend reading more on it and looking it up because
<v Speaker 2>it is an incredibly important thing. I just did a
<v Speaker 2>huge training on it that really opened my eyes that
<v Speaker 2>I think more people need to do. And with the
<v Speaker 2>people I supervise, I've been making sure to drive this
<v Speaker 2>home because I've had a number of clients who've been
<v Speaker 2>through a great amount of things that are more adequately
<v Speaker 2>described by moral injury, and they are the key thing
<v Speaker 2>they're holding them against themselves. I hurt someone or so
<v Speaker 2>did something that I can never forgive myself for. If
<v Speaker 2>people found out about what I did, my position in
<v Speaker 2>society that brings me safety now, no matter how much
<v Speaker 2>years I am away from this would be terminated. So
<v Speaker 2>they are never safe. But if you believe strongly that
<v Speaker 2>the representative of God when you were about to walk
<v Speaker 2>into heaven after death will still be there with a
<v Speaker 2>ledger of all the shit you did at whatever point
<v Speaker 2>in time in your life and be like, suck.
<v Speaker 1>Bro Well, I mean yeah, I mean like the idea
<v Speaker 1>of more I was raised Catholic, the idea of like
<v Speaker 1>mortal sins, that there are things that you do that
<v Speaker 1>are unforgivable things and then once you do them.
<v Speaker 5>You're fucked. You're going to go to hell.
<v Speaker 1>Baby, Like this idea that there is unrecoverable choices that
<v Speaker 1>you can make, which sucks, and that, from what I understand,
<v Speaker 1>a lot of religions have a version of that.
<v Speaker 5>And then because we are a very.
<v Speaker 1>Religious based people, like a lot of argument cultures are
<v Speaker 1>based on that, of course, it translates into these things.
<v Speaker 2>Correct and to just tie this home and then I'll
<v Speaker 2>kind of we'll let this go transition away from it
<v Speaker 2>because there's a lot there's a lot of research being
<v Speaker 2>done on that. There's even assessments for this. You can
<v Speaker 2>get them from if you just google moral injury assessments,
<v Speaker 2>you can find them from the VA even and I
<v Speaker 2>recommend that because I've had clients that I've sat down
<v Speaker 2>with these and done and I've been suspicious that it's
<v Speaker 2>a moral injury that's keeping them stuck. I don't deserve
<v Speaker 2>to feel better. I don't deserve to move on from this.
<v Speaker 2>I don't deserve to heal because of what I did.
<v Speaker 2>And then I've given these assessments and they've been dead
<v Speaker 2>ringers ding ding ding ding ding ding ding, and it's
<v Speaker 2>really opened up some eveinist discussion. And this would be
<v Speaker 2>necessary here yet again I will quote from this. Another
<v Speaker 2>hallmark reaction to moral injury is an inability to self
<v Speaker 2>forgive and consequently engaging in self sabotaging behaviors. Examples feeling
<v Speaker 2>like you don't deserve to succeed at work or relationships. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>you don't deserve to be happy, you don't deserve to
<v Speaker 2>have a future, which prompts then derealization and depersonalization, because
<v Speaker 2>if I can't, if I can't be okay in this world,
<v Speaker 2>then perhaps but I still exist in this world. Perhaps
<v Speaker 2>I am not real, or perhaps the world is not real.
<v Speaker 2>Perhaps I'm not on the right timeline. Perhaps I actually
<v Speaker 2>died in the war.
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think it's just like a very ungrounded place
<v Speaker 1>to be in if nothing else, like, if you're not
<v Speaker 1>connected to other people, you are just kind of walking
<v Speaker 1>around the world, you know, with no anchors. That's an
<v Speaker 1>experience that goes against human instinct to gather and be
<v Speaker 1>with others and be important to other people and to
<v Speaker 1>experience those connections.
<v Speaker 2>Correct.
<v Speaker 1>So it would spin you out to be on the
<v Speaker 1>side of it that you're talking about, which is like
<v Speaker 1>I have to hold myself apart, which is something you do.
<v Speaker 5>Hear a lot of.
<v Speaker 1>Vets talk about when they come home from active duty.
<v Speaker 1>It's like, I don't know how to be here. I
<v Speaker 1>don't know how to be with my family. I don't
<v Speaker 1>know how to be gentle, I don't know how to
<v Speaker 1>be loving. I don't know how to like I don't
<v Speaker 1>even want them to touch me, maybe because I'm covered
<v Speaker 1>in like blood basically yep. And it's not something that
<v Speaker 1>gets talked about a lot, which is good that we're
<v Speaker 1>talking like you're talking about here, Ben, and we're talking
<v Speaker 1>about it is because it also just conflicts with not
<v Speaker 1>so much in this case, but thinking of it in
<v Speaker 1>a more general sense of people that have seen war.
<v Speaker 1>Is it conflicts with this idea that you've done something
<v Speaker 1>honorable and now you're coming back and so you should
<v Speaker 1>be like just relieved and proud of yourself. But in actuality,
<v Speaker 1>there's things you had to do in war that doesn't
<v Speaker 1>just like go away. Nope, whether you get accolades or
<v Speaker 1>not for doing it.
<v Speaker 2>And I think more importantly, I mean for this story,
<v Speaker 2>Yes it's important to understand in war, but these things
<v Speaker 2>happen in our communities. These things happen to regular people.
<v Speaker 2>They happened to police, they happen to fire, they happened
<v Speaker 2>to Joe Schmoe on the street. Sometimes we have to
<v Speaker 2>make decisions.
<v Speaker 5>Well, I think it also just happens too.
<v Speaker 1>Like I work with people where because of bad situations
<v Speaker 1>they were in when they were younger, maybe they were
<v Speaker 1>really violent to like their friends. Maybe they got into
<v Speaker 1>a lot of fights, maybe they were like sexually provocative.
<v Speaker 1>You know, like there are a lot of behaviors that
<v Speaker 1>could come out of trauma that then you will be
<v Speaker 1>acting out because what's going on within you.
<v Speaker 5>And then it's like.
<v Speaker 1>I work with people where they're still holding themselves accountable
<v Speaker 1>for things they did when they were kids and teenagers
<v Speaker 1>that they haven't done in like decades, correct, and they're
<v Speaker 1>still like highly identifying with that version of themselves as
<v Speaker 1>if they're still that quote unquote violent or aggressive or inappropriate.
<v Speaker 1>And so, yeah, you're right, it's not just this kind
<v Speaker 1>of stuff. I think this is the most magnified vers
<v Speaker 1>people have to go to war and do horrible things,
<v Speaker 1>and then I think it does also happens in the
<v Speaker 1>day to day when they're putting circumstances that create a
<v Speaker 1>version of yourself that you don't want to be or
<v Speaker 1>that you really aren't.
<v Speaker 2>That doesn't exist in the civilian parts of you or
<v Speaker 2>your core identity, right, but it's an extreme part that
<v Speaker 2>is part of you. I think that's the part that
<v Speaker 2>is really critical to highlight, to understanding this is all
<v Speaker 2>parts are part of us. They are all part of
<v Speaker 2>the whole. They aren't different from you. And that's where
<v Speaker 2>people who go through these things understand it's really critical
<v Speaker 2>to understand that language, because when we haven't had specific
<v Speaker 2>training to understand that or exposure to it, you don't know,
<v Speaker 2>but understanding they know it was them.
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I think it's the trauma also of like, oh,
<v Speaker 1>I know what I capable of.
<v Speaker 5>I think there's trauma there too.
<v Speaker 2>There is. It's a wound to your identity, Yeah, your
<v Speaker 2>moral foundation. I wouldn't never do this thing, but a
<v Speaker 2>situation emerge where I had to. Yeah, And it's it's
<v Speaker 2>critical to understand that that is a moral injury. It's
<v Speaker 2>what it is. And the part of us that could
<v Speaker 2>do that was part of us, is part of us.
<v Speaker 2>Parts of us we form don't ever go away, not ever.
<v Speaker 2>They are an adaptation to the life you have lived.
<v Speaker 2>And even if you have lived twenty years beyond who
<v Speaker 2>you were as a troubled child or a soldier or
<v Speaker 2>what have you, you still know that some version of
<v Speaker 2>you exists inside of you that could do those things.
<v Speaker 2>And it's critical to overcould people to understand where the
<v Speaker 2>point you're going of like that was a limited circumstance
<v Speaker 2>of you that existed for only a specific reason. It
<v Speaker 2>won't re emerge unless something like that it merges again,
<v Speaker 2>but all they can processes it did. That's where we
<v Speaker 2>see him so stuck in this film, and it's really
<v Speaker 2>really important that we understand that and understand how to
<v Speaker 2>have language around that.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what's coming to mind is just like another
<v Speaker 1>very different example to help people who are listening kind
<v Speaker 1>of get it fully. And this is gonna seem so random,
<v Speaker 1>but right now, well, the second the third season of
<v Speaker 1>Yellowjackets just ended. That's where we are in time right
<v Speaker 1>now on the podcast is a recording and that show
<v Speaker 1>I think is all about that that these group of
<v Speaker 1>kids or teenage girls got put into a context where
<v Speaker 1>they had to do banana stuff yep, that you would
<v Speaker 1>never have to do. And how we see them now
<v Speaker 1>as adults trying to or trying not to reckon with
<v Speaker 1>what we're talking about here, which is like I spent
<v Speaker 1>a good amount of time doing things that I would
<v Speaker 1>have never discovered I was capable of.
<v Speaker 5>And now what.
<v Speaker 2>Correct or even a more popular example, because that's a
<v Speaker 2>great one that shows great with this.
<v Speaker 5>Lieutenant Dan Oh he should have died in that war, yeah.
<v Speaker 2>And he should have been protecting his men and he
<v Speaker 2>couldn't execute his function and what his family expected him.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he had a very comic Cozi mindset, because generationally
<v Speaker 1>his family had a very comic Cozi mindset that to
<v Speaker 1>die in war is the only honorable way to die.
<v Speaker 2>A lot of cultures have that too.
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I mean, if you think about even go
<v Speaker 1>all the way back too, because I'm reading the Odyssey
<v Speaker 1>right now. Not to brag, it's like, that's the big
<v Speaker 1>thing with like Achilles, right, like Raven Claude, damn it, dork,
<v Speaker 1>don't try to stomp on me. Hufflepuff is like, that's
<v Speaker 1>the that's the tragedy if you want to think about
<v Speaker 1>like that of Achilles, like either he dies happy and unknown,
<v Speaker 1>or he goes to war and dies in battle for
<v Speaker 1>great honor and his mom's like, don't be fucking pussy
<v Speaker 1>and to hear having a family, God, damn, you better
<v Speaker 1>go to warr and die. Yep.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the hella here I come all these but I
<v Speaker 2>just think, I know it's a long section because it's
<v Speaker 2>a complicated topic, but I think it's really really vital
<v Speaker 2>to understand that, and you know, we can let that
<v Speaker 2>rest there and take a break.
<v Speaker 1>Here, all right. So now we've been touching upon it.
<v Speaker 1>But a big theme of this movie, I think, especially
<v Speaker 1>in the second half, is the collective.
<v Speaker 5>Trauma, the communal trauma of all.
<v Speaker 1>These people that are get like leftovers of this war
<v Speaker 1>time experience and then they're being put into a similar experience,
<v Speaker 1>which is a giant Godzilla has arisen from the ocean.
<v Speaker 2>And we got to go fight him.
<v Speaker 1>And also a big part of it, like we mentioned earlier,
<v Speaker 1>is there's a big shift and also national identity.
<v Speaker 2>So one of the things that's happening in this film
<v Speaker 2>is that there's a couple things colliding. Which is what
<v Speaker 2>makes it such a brilliant film is the collision of
<v Speaker 2>impossible factors. Japan is on the losing side of this war.
<v Speaker 2>They have thoroughly lost, but their entire warrior warrior ethos
<v Speaker 2>is formed from the Bashido code and looking at how
<v Speaker 2>important it is in their national identity to not surrender,
<v Speaker 2>to fight to the last breath, to the last person,
<v Speaker 2>to defend their home. They lost, and now not only
<v Speaker 2>did they lost, but they're being disarmed and forced to
<v Speaker 2>be dependent upon the country that defeated them, who is
<v Speaker 2>not going to protect them or give them weapons to
<v Speaker 2>protect themselves at the same rate at which they would
<v Speaker 2>do so normally. Japan is not able to self defend.
<v Speaker 2>They're being disarmed. They're granted the ability to recommission one
<v Speaker 2>ship one ship to fight against Godzilla. They're disarmed and
<v Speaker 2>being attacked. They are less capable and under attack again.
<v Speaker 2>So the collision of those factors is a huge component
<v Speaker 2>of this cultural identity and the collective trauma because all
<v Speaker 2>of Japan is under that condition. They are actively being
<v Speaker 2>attacked by a monster that's destroying their cities, but they
<v Speaker 2>don't have weapons and tools with which to deal with it,
<v Speaker 2>and the only ones that they are able to use
<v Speaker 2>are ones that they're told they can use. That's a
<v Speaker 2>pretty stark contrast from their national identity. Can you imagine
<v Speaker 2>if that happened here? Americans like I have all these
<v Speaker 2>guns and all these things, and.
<v Speaker 1>Well, our culture won't to shut the fuck up about
<v Speaker 1>it even when it's not a threat. So yeah, we
<v Speaker 1>would implode nationally if that happened.
<v Speaker 2>They're not different, right, and we're watching that they've lost.
<v Speaker 2>Their ability to fight is not quite what they thought
<v Speaker 2>it was under the circumstances that existed, and now we
<v Speaker 2>don't have the means to even try because we're stuck.
<v Speaker 2>But we have to do it anyway because we still
<v Speaker 2>can't just let ourselves be consumed by a monster.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so as we take it out from just Koweichi,
<v Speaker 1>and we kind of pull it out too, because one
<v Speaker 1>thing we didn't bring up is he starts working on
<v Speaker 1>a pretty much like a fishing boat. That's job it
<v Speaker 1>is to deactivate minds. Correct, Okay, just making sure I
<v Speaker 1>got that right. So it's built up of Doc, Captain,
<v Speaker 1>and Kid, and this Godzilla thing happens. Like I really
<v Speaker 1>like the scenes towards the last half of the movie,
<v Speaker 1>maybe even like the last third, where they are trying
<v Speaker 1>to convince now civilians to participate in this situation and
<v Speaker 1>nobody wants to volunteer, and I remember just thinking, like,
<v Speaker 1>of course they don't want to volunteer, like they're still
<v Speaker 1>fresh from this war that was deeply tragic, and they're
<v Speaker 1>also still in this very vulnerable position where it is
<v Speaker 1>likely that they won't make it if they have to
<v Speaker 1>attack this guy, and then you're asking them to volunteer,
<v Speaker 1>Like it doesn't shock me that everyone just kind of
<v Speaker 1>like shuts down. And I think that was a very
<v Speaker 1>real representation of like, these people have been through it,
<v Speaker 1>they're still going through it, and now you're asking them
<v Speaker 1>to put themselves in this position that also you could
<v Speaker 1>if I want to take this farther where they were
<v Speaker 1>told like if you put your life on the line,
<v Speaker 1>which Stock says in that speech he gives. We were
<v Speaker 1>sold culturalist idea that if we put ourselves on the line,
<v Speaker 1>that that'll work out, and that's like morally good and
<v Speaker 1>I know I'm asking you to do that again when
<v Speaker 1>we've been in shambles as a country for years now,
<v Speaker 1>and it is a hard It's a hard motherfucking cell.
<v Speaker 2>It is. It's a very hard cell. And they've been
<v Speaker 2>slowly recovering some aspects of their identity and ingenuity and
<v Speaker 2>technical prowess by going out and kind of clearing these
<v Speaker 2>minds and things. But even amongst all of that humanity, uh,
<v Speaker 2>that carrier or that the the naval ship that they
<v Speaker 2>got back, what happened to it? Part of why the
<v Speaker 2>first specie makes they people.
<v Speaker 1>Are like, yeah, nah, this one Godzilla turns blue and
<v Speaker 1>his spine cookuk kunk khunh.
<v Speaker 5>Any, Like you know big Babilaborgs.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that would that would be yes, big bad Beetleborgs exactly.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well yeah, that's also a huge component of this
<v Speaker 1>is like you want us to go up against this
<v Speaker 1>creature that not only we've never encountered before, but also
<v Speaker 1>seems to have acquired mutant skills.
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly what it did, and so it's like bigger,
<v Speaker 2>just be kidding me.
<v Speaker 1>It gets bigger well because it seems to absorb, right, yeah,
<v Speaker 1>the weaponry nightmare.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it demolished the ship. They use the breath weapon
<v Speaker 2>against it and just yeah, annihilated and they.
<v Speaker 1>Saw it well, and then they that thing happens where
<v Speaker 1>they don't they don't warn people about Godzilla because they
<v Speaker 1>want to contain the situation, and then what happens. Godzilla
<v Speaker 1>attacks of big city and it goes to hell, you know,
<v Speaker 1>and this is a country that has had huge city
<v Speaker 1>destroying situations happen.
<v Speaker 2>And as we previously discussed, tying it together, right, yes, yes,
<v Speaker 2>and yes, but also what kind of propaganda were they
<v Speaker 2>getting that we're going to win m M and the
<v Speaker 2>government has proved itself not trustworthy and what does it
<v Speaker 2>do again? Lies?
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, lies, and then people I was shocked. This is
<v Speaker 1>more final thoughts. But when Nrico died, I was like, no.
<v Speaker 1>When I thought she died, I was like, don't do
<v Speaker 1>this to this man and this baby I know. And
<v Speaker 1>then she died for him pretty much when he thought
<v Speaker 1>she died, yeah, like that's not going to help.
<v Speaker 4>I think that's what gave him the push to be
<v Speaker 4>the pilot for the project. Yep, he's like, she's gone,
<v Speaker 4>I have you know, I have this little girl that
<v Speaker 4>I mean, I don't even know he was thinking of
<v Speaker 4>the little girl at that point, not because he was
<v Speaker 4>a jerk or something, but just because I don't he
<v Speaker 4>was so he was in so much pain. Well, he
<v Speaker 4>gave her to the neighbor, yes, and gave a bunch
<v Speaker 4>of the way he left that baby though, He just
<v Speaker 4>left her in the house by herself with a buile
<v Speaker 4>of money.
<v Speaker 2>And god thinks she wandered out. You got her. But
<v Speaker 2>if he could have planned that better, yeah, correct, But
<v Speaker 2>he thought she was better off without him.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh for sure. I mean that's a part of
<v Speaker 1>feeling horrible about yourself.
<v Speaker 2>Yep.
<v Speaker 5>So you think everybody's better off without you.
<v Speaker 2>Correct. But looking at like that collective side of it
<v Speaker 2>again is that they're you know, they're so demoralization is
<v Speaker 2>the right word, right, they're demoralized because they're being demilitarized
<v Speaker 2>because they're defeated and now they're being attacked again and
<v Speaker 2>their weapons that they do have, which are less aren't working.
<v Speaker 2>Their tanks just get thrown their big naval ship such
<v Speaker 2>a you know, aquatic movie with so many naval themes
<v Speaker 2>because Japan was a naval power ties into their you know, identity, right,
<v Speaker 2>they're not island nation, So navy's pretty big deal didn't work. Fucked,
<v Speaker 2>totally fucked. How do you and then recognize how do
<v Speaker 2>we reactivate and find within ourselves all of these parts
<v Speaker 2>for defense, for winning, for self survival, for sustainability when
<v Speaker 2>we're defeated.
<v Speaker 1>Well, also, and this might be where you're leading to,
<v Speaker 1>is that this Godzilla does offer an opportunity for a
<v Speaker 1>lot of these men to have what we've talked about before,
<v Speaker 1>which is a corrective experience. Someone did say so wrote
<v Speaker 1>it down. It's a chance to do good again, you know.
<v Speaker 1>Like this is also an opportunity for our main character,
<v Speaker 1>Kichi Kiwiki Kichi Kouichi to have his ultimate corrective experience,
<v Speaker 1>which is now I can finally do the thing and
<v Speaker 1>complete my story that he's been in, Like we've talked
<v Speaker 1>about this like disassociated frozen state for years now, and
<v Speaker 1>so now he can finally, you know, finish his programming.
<v Speaker 5>He's been stuck on this weird loop for so long, and.
<v Speaker 1>So that's why it is really important for him to
<v Speaker 1>like fuling himself into the mouth of Godzilla.
<v Speaker 2>Correct, and it gives him the ability to complete the mission.
<v Speaker 2>That is a critical component of under standing how we
<v Speaker 2>get people past these things is you must allow that
<v Speaker 2>part that they formed to respond to the critical situation
<v Speaker 2>to do something close enough to what it was supposed
<v Speaker 2>to do, or otherwise it's stays stuck. Mother's Against Drunk
<v Speaker 2>Driving formed because people lost kids to drunk drivers and
<v Speaker 2>they could not parent and protect their children anymore. But
<v Speaker 2>what they could do to protect children was to create
<v Speaker 2>this foundation, to create political action, to fundraise and they
<v Speaker 2>did things and continue to do things to make meaning
<v Speaker 2>of the losses and give that protective mothering parental instincts
<v Speaker 2>something to do, even if it can't do it for
<v Speaker 2>their child.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's finding a purpose. He's been wandering around purposeless.
<v Speaker 2>But it's not just him.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it means everybody.
<v Speaker 2>It's like looking at some of the characters, right, the
<v Speaker 2>kid couldn't go to war. He was old enough to
<v Speaker 2>go to war, and he still has the glamorous idea
<v Speaker 2>of what war is supposed to be. He has the
<v Speaker 2>basic training message of you know, like rah rah, go
<v Speaker 2>get him. You can survive, you can protect Japan and people, everybody,
<v Speaker 2>everybody who went to war is like, shut up with that.
<v Speaker 2>War is not what you think, son.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Like the captain and him get into it because
<v Speaker 1>he's so adamant, even with a broken arm, that like
<v Speaker 1>he needs to be a part of it. And the
<v Speaker 1>captain says, not being part of a war is something
<v Speaker 1>to be grateful for.
<v Speaker 5>But that's the kind of insight.
<v Speaker 1>This is what's so annoying is it's the kind of
<v Speaker 1>insight that you can only really have once you've gone
<v Speaker 1>through the thing correct And so I'm in my brain,
<v Speaker 1>I'm like, I wish the kid could understand it, but
<v Speaker 1>he's not going to never until something unless something similar
<v Speaker 1>happens to him. Yeah, which you don't want to happen
<v Speaker 1>to him, which is the catch twenty two of the situation.
<v Speaker 2>And yet it does. But once it does, he gains
<v Speaker 2>the knowledge and also completes the function that he did
<v Speaker 2>something in defense.
<v Speaker 5>Of Japan, yeah, by bringing all the boats.
<v Speaker 2>Correct. But he would have stayed stuck in his shame
<v Speaker 2>and his guilt that he did nothing that he was
<v Speaker 2>unable to and would have held that against himself forever
<v Speaker 2>had he not had the corrective experience of doing that,
<v Speaker 2>because that's the same thing and Doc, Doc was military intelligence.
<v Speaker 2>You don't find that out until he reveals himself towards
<v Speaker 2>the end. But he was there to help plan and
<v Speaker 2>design all of these things, and he knew the secrets,
<v Speaker 2>and his guilt was that he couldn't do anything with
<v Speaker 2>series because he couldn't tell, because he's scorned a state secrecy.
<v Speaker 2>And now he can. Now he can be open, and
<v Speaker 2>now he can solve it. And it is through that
<v Speaker 2>messaging that his second speech wins people over and they
<v Speaker 2>rise to the occasion and the people stand up. It
<v Speaker 2>took the admiral telling his story, telling his truth right.
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't just Doc. It took the person in the
<v Speaker 2>highest position of power to stand up and tell the
<v Speaker 2>most real story to get people out of the collective
<v Speaker 2>trauma and back into collective action. And how many stood
<v Speaker 2>up that had skills that were willing to go back
<v Speaker 2>into the breach that were not before until he stood up.
<v Speaker 1>But it is interesting that even while hitting upon those things,
<v Speaker 1>he also simultaneously, very heavily critiques the idea of like Kamakazi,
<v Speaker 1>the idea that the citizenry is being treated like expendables,
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's such an interesting like almost like
<v Speaker 1>Jux's position in that speech, right of him being able
<v Speaker 1>to say, like, I do see the importance of you
<v Speaker 1>all as individuals, and I am respecting the gravity of
<v Speaker 1>what I'm asking for. That it's not just like what
<v Speaker 1>before where it was like you don't matter, the cause matters.
<v Speaker 1>Like he was recognizing that you matter and the cause matters.
<v Speaker 1>And I know that I'm asking you to do something
<v Speaker 1>really hard and I'm not going to go the route
<v Speaker 1>we have gone in this culture, which is that you
<v Speaker 1>don't matter. I wonder how much that is like current
<v Speaker 1>day ideas being put into the movie, Like it makes
<v Speaker 1>me wonder recently after World War Two, what the thoughts
<v Speaker 1>store about like that philosophy. Obviously I don't know anything
<v Speaker 1>about that, because you know, I'm not. Yeah, well, I
<v Speaker 1>assume it would have to because.
<v Speaker 2>The emperor wanted to keep fighting. Well, thats why the
<v Speaker 2>second bomb was dropped, because the emperor one would not surrender,
<v Speaker 2>wanted to keep fighting.
<v Speaker 1>So it's this idea of like, we got royally fucked
<v Speaker 1>over culturally, and you asked us for this big, big
<v Speaker 1>sacrifice and it gave us less than nothing.
<v Speaker 2>And you were gambling with our lives for your ego. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>that became quite the sentiment of recognition, like the Emperor
<v Speaker 2>was threatened with overthrow.
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Yeah, so then it makes more cultural sense, whil like,
<v Speaker 1>because Doc's speech contains so much humility, humility and recognition
<v Speaker 1>of the worthwhileness.
<v Speaker 5>Of all the men in front of him.
<v Speaker 2>That was the admiral.
<v Speaker 1>I thought it was the Doc that gave the speech
<v Speaker 1>about like criticizing it.
<v Speaker 2>That's what I wrote my notes. So they both did.
<v Speaker 2>But then is the admiral that stood up and did
<v Speaker 2>more of that coming from? Which is the juxtaposition?
<v Speaker 1>Right?
<v Speaker 2>The person who would have been ordering men to their
<v Speaker 2>death and holding them accountable with death is one of
<v Speaker 2>the ones coming back from it. It's Doc and him
<v Speaker 2>because Doc says one thing and then the Admiral echoes it, okay,
<v Speaker 2>which is super super critical to recognize that the person
<v Speaker 2>who would have not the person planning the attacks, that
<v Speaker 2>the person ordering them is also echoing the message. Without that,
<v Speaker 2>they would not have stood up.
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, we'll take a break here and be
<v Speaker 1>back with treatments. Why don't you go first, Hannah?
<v Speaker 4>Something that I want to point out for so I
<v Speaker 4>would be doing couple's therapy. One thing that I want
<v Speaker 4>to point out about Noriko is that she has her
<v Speaker 4>moral experience is a little bit different. But she did
<v Speaker 4>promise something to her parents. She promised them that she
<v Speaker 4>would survive, and I think a part of what we
<v Speaker 4>see in the film is her trying to survive in
<v Speaker 4>any way that she can. I think that's why she
<v Speaker 4>goes to get a job. She's trying to find her
<v Speaker 4>purpose and trying to find her meaning. And then we
<v Speaker 4>see the experience of her being a little bit more
<v Speaker 4>independent and him automatically feeling defensive and feeling like, am
<v Speaker 4>I not providing enough for you? Am I not getting
<v Speaker 4>you what you need? And she's like, it doesn't have anything.
<v Speaker 5>To do with that.
<v Speaker 4>It has to do with I said I was going
<v Speaker 4>to survive. I have to survive myself. The reason why
<v Speaker 4>I brought that up is because that is definitely going
<v Speaker 4>to come into couple's therapy. That is definitely going to
<v Speaker 4>be something we're going to talk about. Another reason why
<v Speaker 4>I want to talk about working with them is because
<v Speaker 4>when you're in grad school, you get told that if
<v Speaker 4>you have a couple, or if you have people who
<v Speaker 4>are not of your cultural background, whatever that might be,
<v Speaker 4>that you should, you know, make sure that you don't
<v Speaker 4>ask any questions.
<v Speaker 5>You have to get all your own information.
<v Speaker 4>You're told all of these different things that you have
<v Speaker 4>to do with a couple. A lot of times you're
<v Speaker 4>even told to refer out automatically because you're not don't
<v Speaker 4>have the cultural background. And in the real world.
<v Speaker 2>You get the couples that you get, Yeah, like.
<v Speaker 1>Little accessible referrals that exactly everybody's needs exactly.
<v Speaker 2>It just it would be awesome if it was like that.
<v Speaker 5>It's just not fucking like that.
<v Speaker 4>Part of the reason why I want to talk about
<v Speaker 4>this is because a lot of times you're just taught
<v Speaker 4>to refer out. And what I want to share is
<v Speaker 4>that when you have a couple that has a different
<v Speaker 4>background from you and a different experience, but at least
<v Speaker 4>their experience is the same, you are allowed to ask
<v Speaker 4>some questions for clarification. You're allowed to ask if there's
<v Speaker 4>cultural aspects that you need to be aware of and
<v Speaker 4>you don't. And I'm not saying that they should have
<v Speaker 4>to take up the whole session to explain it to me.
<v Speaker 4>I'm just saying that we're allowed to ask some questions
<v Speaker 4>about how their cultural experience is just different because it is,
<v Speaker 4>and that something that a responsible clinician could do is
<v Speaker 4>you know, if you know that you have a couple
<v Speaker 4>who is of a different cultural background than you, you
<v Speaker 4>can look it up on the internet, you can read
<v Speaker 4>articles about it.
<v Speaker 2>You can consult with somebody.
<v Speaker 4>Maybe you have somebody who has, in this instance, you know,
<v Speaker 4>a Japanese background. Maybe I can find a colleague that
<v Speaker 4>I can talk to about it. So it is a
<v Speaker 4>little bit of both. You have to do a little
<v Speaker 4>bit of both. So that's part of why I wanted
<v Speaker 4>to talk about it.
<v Speaker 1>Now.
<v Speaker 4>When it comes to doing the actual work with Nurico
<v Speaker 4>and Kuichi, what.
<v Speaker 5>Will be really important.
<v Speaker 4>Is that they are both on their own trauma journeys
<v Speaker 4>in a very specific way, and the triggers that they
<v Speaker 4>might both have is something that has to be talked
<v Speaker 4>about because a lot of times PTSD symptoms can come
<v Speaker 4>out more relationally and have a really big impact on
<v Speaker 4>that part of your life.
<v Speaker 2>So if we're talking about.
<v Speaker 5>Each other, sorry to cut in, but yeah, like acting
<v Speaker 5>out on each other.
<v Speaker 4>Exactly exactly, And so what would really be important when
<v Speaker 4>working with two people who are traumatized in a similar way,
<v Speaker 4>even if they both reacted in different ways. That helping
<v Speaker 4>them both understand that they have their own things that
<v Speaker 4>they may have to work on before we can come
<v Speaker 4>into couples, but also understanding for both of them that
<v Speaker 4>these are the things that make me upset, These are
<v Speaker 4>the things that make me upset, trying to figure out
<v Speaker 4>a way of how can we keep the both of
<v Speaker 4>you being activated or triggered as you know, as low
<v Speaker 4>as possible, because that will be really important when it
<v Speaker 4>comes to any kind of fighting or arguments or whatever
<v Speaker 4>the case might be. So so that's what I would
<v Speaker 4>do with the couple. I would really want to help
<v Speaker 4>them also have connection to each other and then in
<v Speaker 4>some ways some of this is just pure communication. So
<v Speaker 4>those are the things I would want to help them with.
<v Speaker 4>And yeah, that's all I got.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, there'd be a couple that you'd want to do
<v Speaker 1>like the vulnerability cycle stuff with like what are our
<v Speaker 1>individual wounds and how are we gonna indirectly directly push
<v Speaker 1>those wounds every once in a while and recognize like, ooh,
<v Speaker 1>that's a me thing. Yeah, and you just stepped on it,
<v Speaker 1>maybe accidentally, and just because you stepped on it, for
<v Speaker 1>whatever reason. Doesn't mean that I have to treat you
<v Speaker 1>like you stomped on it on purpose to fuck with me, right,
<v Speaker 1>which is what people do, And then they'll do their
<v Speaker 1>own thing and reaction to that, and then that's why
<v Speaker 1>it's called a cycle.
<v Speaker 2>And becomes really critical is in those conversations is teaching
<v Speaker 2>about the biology that a person who perceives the threat
<v Speaker 2>is going to react to it, and it is going
<v Speaker 2>to take you not doing so and committing to not
<v Speaker 2>doing so or doing so less often, because you're not
<v Speaker 2>always going to be able to not react. If your
<v Speaker 2>partner starts reacting, you're not going to be able to
<v Speaker 2>contain your shit because you're perceiving your partner as a
<v Speaker 2>threat at that moment. But there is a classic thing
<v Speaker 2>in couples counseling that we were taught in grad school.
<v Speaker 2>You need to get both people to agree unconditionally to change,
<v Speaker 2>at least largely so because if they agree, I will
<v Speaker 2>make a change. If they do, it will not be successful.
<v Speaker 2>Right if they say or I will not change, but
<v Speaker 2>I want them to change, not going to be successful
<v Speaker 2>if they say I am going to change regardless of
<v Speaker 2>what they do to make things better, change will happen,
<v Speaker 2>but you need both people to agree to the same thing.
<v Speaker 4>And there's so much psycho education that you do as
<v Speaker 4>a couple's therapist.
<v Speaker 2>Half of the work I do is psycho education.
<v Speaker 4>And you know, and all of you have heard me
<v Speaker 4>speak of this many, many times, because we don't have
<v Speaker 4>any mental health education in this.
<v Speaker 2>Country, none garbage, So.
<v Speaker 4>People don't know a fucking thing. And sometimes when I
<v Speaker 4>really explain the neurobiological experiences that people have when they're triggered,
<v Speaker 4>you can just see the light in the partner's eyes
<v Speaker 4>of like, holy fuck, I did not think this is
<v Speaker 4>where this was going, or that this has nothing to
<v Speaker 4>do with me, correct, which a lot of the time,
<v Speaker 4>especially when it's past trauma, a lot of the time,
<v Speaker 4>it's got nothing to do with the partner. It's just
<v Speaker 4>because you're interacting the most with each other and you're
<v Speaker 4>around each other the most, and you also feel and
<v Speaker 4>sometimes when you feel the safest with that person, sometimes
<v Speaker 4>we also can push them away.
<v Speaker 2>Correct And the degree of betrayal, yes, that you feel
<v Speaker 2>when that person fails you causes a much bigger response
<v Speaker 2>because you're not safe from the past, you're not safe
<v Speaker 2>in the present and you're not safe because the idea
<v Speaker 2>of a future you had where you were safe from
<v Speaker 2>the past no longer exists in this moment. Clients really
<v Speaker 2>have to understand entering into couples, therapies, in experience, in
<v Speaker 2>psycho education, of learning, the regulation of all of that
<v Speaker 2>determines the outcome. This is what a lot of the
<v Speaker 2>critical research on couples did you know what? The thing
<v Speaker 2>that determines whether couples are going to fight is their
<v Speaker 2>fucking blood pressure.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that sounds right.
<v Speaker 2>Their heart rate and their blood pressure. This is what
<v Speaker 2>the Gotment's proved if you track that shit, and they
<v Speaker 2>got some shit that's you know, makes money, but other
<v Speaker 2>stuff that is concrete.
<v Speaker 4>Science, right absolutely, and that shit is science on mostly
<v Speaker 4>white couples. And one more thing that I want to
<v Speaker 4>just add that I am also assuming about when I
<v Speaker 4>work with this couple, is that what we see at
<v Speaker 4>the end of the film, which is Kuichi has because
<v Speaker 4>he has had this corrective experience and because he found
<v Speaker 4>his purpose and he was able to follow through and
<v Speaker 4>he was able to live and then he found out
<v Speaker 4>that Noriko was alive. That I feel like he will
<v Speaker 4>be and he still will have a lot of work
<v Speaker 4>to do emotionally, but that he will be in a
<v Speaker 4>place where he is now open for connection. And something
<v Speaker 4>that I just learned in an excellent training that Brittany
<v Speaker 4>set up at her practice about couples counseling was that connection.
<v Speaker 4>We talk so much about communication and couples, but it's
<v Speaker 4>actually connection that helps with communication. And they couldn't have
<v Speaker 4>that because Kuichi couldn't allow that to happen, because he
<v Speaker 4>didn't deserve good, beautiful things.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you can't communicate better her to someone who has
<v Speaker 1>not receptive.
<v Speaker 3>Yet to the communication, exactly exactly. And he did not
<v Speaker 3>feel connected to her until he thought he lost her. Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>and not until she showed up alive.
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is also another corrective experience for him, yeah, exactly.
<v Speaker 1>He now gets to do all the things that I'm
<v Speaker 1>sure he was regretting not doing.
<v Speaker 2>And she lost her well, she saved him.
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I mean just in the sense of I
<v Speaker 1>never told her I loved her, you know what I mean.
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure he was thinking all those things in that
<v Speaker 1>moment and like another time when he probably thought I
<v Speaker 1>didn't follow through, like I'm such a fucking coward. You know,
<v Speaker 1>there's this woman that loved me, who lived with me
<v Speaker 1>for years, and I never pursued.
<v Speaker 2>It happened to be beautiful. Yeah, he was a cook.
<v Speaker 2>What's wrong? So I'm going to offshoot on that.
<v Speaker 1>In that I was thinking I would could do family
<v Speaker 1>therapy there little daughter, Akiko, she does seem pretty chill
<v Speaker 1>for a kid.
<v Speaker 2>Who's go through a lot of shit.
<v Speaker 1>But I would just say, like, like offshooting what you're saying, Hannah,
<v Speaker 1>of let's say they're a couple. Now they're a little family,
<v Speaker 1>like an actual little family. I think the work I
<v Speaker 1>can do with parents, even of someone that young is
<v Speaker 1>kind of what you were saying Handah to of like
<v Speaker 1>it's much more psycho educational. Yeah, So let's say if
<v Speaker 1>Akiko started exhibiting maybe some behavioral problems her own trauma stuff,
<v Speaker 1>what I can do as the clinician is work with
<v Speaker 1>the couple to help them understand why the kid Akiko
<v Speaker 1>might be presenting the way that she is, where it's
<v Speaker 1>coming from in terms of trauma. How trauma can affect
<v Speaker 1>attachment because a kid like her is vulnerable to developing
<v Speaker 1>and something like reactive attachment disorder, which is just when
<v Speaker 1>you have a lot of caregivers when you're really little
<v Speaker 1>for whatever reason, when there's an instability in terms of
<v Speaker 1>of your secure attachments, So whether you lose a parent
<v Speaker 1>and you have to go to another parent, whether you're
<v Speaker 1>being which kind of she is a little bit you know,
<v Speaker 1>where you're kind of like being given like passed around
<v Speaker 1>by adults, which sometimes just happens. Is that then you
<v Speaker 1>can just have like behavior issues and stuff like this
<v Speaker 1>when the kids are older. And a lot of times
<v Speaker 1>parents have a difficult time understanding that because especially when
<v Speaker 1>it's a situation like once I've been in where kind
<v Speaker 1>of similar to a kiko actually like fostered or adopted kids,
<v Speaker 1>where the parents will be like.
<v Speaker 2>This doesn't make sense. I'm giving them everything that they need.
<v Speaker 1>They have food, and they have shelter, and I love
<v Speaker 1>them and I show them that I love them. Why
<v Speaker 1>aren't they well, why aren't they reacting appropriately to the
<v Speaker 1>resources that I'm giving them? And then I have to
<v Speaker 1>do a lot of explaining of this kid developed during
<v Speaker 1>a period of time in which that stuff was not
<v Speaker 1>set in stone, so that security that doesn't exist in
<v Speaker 1>that child even if you start taking care of them
<v Speaker 1>at a pretty young age. A lot of times with
<v Speaker 1>this they'll say like pre too, Like if there's enough
<v Speaker 1>shit that happens in the first like eighteen months to
<v Speaker 1>two years of a kid's life, like that's enough, unfortunately
<v Speaker 1>to really affect this stuff for potentially for the rest
<v Speaker 1>of their life. And so with this is it's I
<v Speaker 1>think with them, I'd also want to do a lot
<v Speaker 1>of work on making sure that their sense of identity,
<v Speaker 1>their stability, their ego is not too attached to how
<v Speaker 1>a Kego response to them, which I think could be
<v Speaker 1>a big thing for either of them. I think with
<v Speaker 1>Noriko obviously, because as we said, she's made it her
<v Speaker 1>life's purpose in a lot of ways to take care
<v Speaker 1>of this girl and to live a good life and
<v Speaker 1>to give this girl a good life. So it would
<v Speaker 1>be something where like you have to let the kid
<v Speaker 1>have whatever opinion of you they want to have treat you.
<v Speaker 1>Maybe they don't treat you like their mom. Maybe they
<v Speaker 1>do kind of act ungrateful and you know, antagonistic and whatever,
<v Speaker 1>and you can't make that you as the parent, can't
<v Speaker 1>make that about you. I need you to love me,
<v Speaker 1>I need you to think of me like your mom.
<v Speaker 1>I need you to have a very specific kind of
<v Speaker 1>relationship to me. I think, especially like I said, with
<v Speaker 1>both of these parents in this movie, where they've gone
<v Speaker 1>through so much, and I could see both of them
<v Speaker 1>having their identity really wrapped up in a Kiko and
<v Speaker 1>how she responds to them. So with these parents, I'd
<v Speaker 1>also have to make sure to say, like, you have
<v Speaker 1>to figure out how to feel grounded and good no
<v Speaker 1>matter how this kid behaves, and this kid can't feel
<v Speaker 1>like your well being is an attitude and all this
<v Speaker 1>stuff is contingent upon how they behave, because that'll make
<v Speaker 1>them more anxious about the attachment stuff and more likely
<v Speaker 1>to do antagonistic things to push you away, because that's
<v Speaker 1>more comfortable than the pressure of like, I have to
<v Speaker 1>be a certain way for you to feel good and
<v Speaker 1>for me to feel good.
<v Speaker 5>And so that'd be the work I'd want to do
<v Speaker 5>with them.
<v Speaker 1>If, for like I said, hypothetically, maybe a Kiko did
<v Speaker 1>have some problems as she got older.
<v Speaker 2>Hopefully she won't. She's pretty young. I suspect she may
<v Speaker 2>do okay.
<v Speaker 1>That's what I mean, Like, there's a very good chance
<v Speaker 1>she'll do okay. But I also think with just how
<v Speaker 1>much she like she loses this mom figures sometime she
<v Speaker 1>goes to this neighbor, you know, there's all this chaos
<v Speaker 1>just within the country at the time. Like I think
<v Speaker 1>that she's vulnerable to happening. Do I think she's super
<v Speaker 1>likely for it to happen. Not necessarily, but I think
<v Speaker 1>like it's just important to talk about, Like if I
<v Speaker 1>work with them to a family, like this could be
<v Speaker 1>a hypothetical situation that would come up that is similar
<v Speaker 1>to ones I've been in where just because you've taken
<v Speaker 1>this kid in, whether it's from the foster system or whatever,
<v Speaker 1>or like from a family member, just because you've taken
<v Speaker 1>this kid in and you've worked really hard to support
<v Speaker 1>them does not mean that you're going to get something
<v Speaker 1>from this kid in return. It does not so, and
<v Speaker 1>if that's something you're caught up in, you got to
<v Speaker 1>get the book over it.
<v Speaker 2>And it doesn't mean that just because you've given them
<v Speaker 2>regulation that the impacts of the dysregulation they went through
<v Speaker 2>will be erased. Yeah, because they will not.
<v Speaker 1>And I've worked with kids that have been adopted as infants,
<v Speaker 1>and I've worked with kids that have been adopted as
<v Speaker 1>very young toddlers that still present with these things. And
<v Speaker 1>so you can't there's no guarantee. Well, I could say here,
<v Speaker 1>all adoption is trauma by the nature of being adoption,
<v Speaker 1>and all fostering is trauma by the nature of being fostering.
<v Speaker 1>A kid gets ripped from their biological caregiver for some reason,
<v Speaker 1>for some reason and play somewhere else. So there's always
<v Speaker 1>the potential that this could lead to these attachmentations I'm
<v Speaker 1>talking about no matter what age or circumstance that you
<v Speaker 1>quote unquote like acquired this child. And I think that's
<v Speaker 1>something I just like to say every once in a
<v Speaker 1>while because there is so much, in my opinion, disgusting
<v Speaker 1>rhetoric out there that if you like get a baby
<v Speaker 1>young enough or in the right conditions, that you can
<v Speaker 1>like love that kid well, or that like that baby
<v Speaker 1>won't have any problems, like I think a lot of
<v Speaker 1>people like, and it's still gross. This is like the
<v Speaker 1>human trafficking part of in my opinion, part of adoption
<v Speaker 1>is like, if I acquire a baby young enough, then
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to avoid all of the potential hardships of
<v Speaker 1>like adopting a kid that's like older. That's not necessarily true.
<v Speaker 1>This stuff happens very young, and like I said, it
<v Speaker 1>can be very random. There are some kids, like when
<v Speaker 1>we talked about Matilda, there are some kids that go
<v Speaker 1>through she like this and they are fine, quote unquote.
<v Speaker 1>And there are some kids that don't have like too
<v Speaker 1>much on paper that happens to them, and they have
<v Speaker 1>a lot of stuff that they have to work through.
<v Speaker 1>So in a lot of ways, it's like a true
<v Speaker 1>like clusterfuck of genetics, nature, nurture, luck, all that kind
<v Speaker 1>of stuff.
<v Speaker 2>You can't escape. Must of those. Yeah, So when I
<v Speaker 2>watched this movie, I even though the plot really concludes it,
<v Speaker 2>I think there's more work that would need to be done,
<v Speaker 2>and that outside of the relationships you all identified, Koichi
<v Speaker 2>and Tuck Schibana is something that I think really needs
<v Speaker 2>some therapeutic intervention because those two went through such a
<v Speaker 2>critical experience and the bad feelings that exist between them,
<v Speaker 2>and for all valid reasons, but I think those two
<v Speaker 2>would probably benefit from being in a group therapy, more
<v Speaker 2>like family therapy kind of connection where the two of
<v Speaker 2>them who are involved in the same event would need
<v Speaker 2>to sit down and kind of process through what each
<v Speaker 2>of them saw and how their viewpoint on it has
<v Speaker 2>changed over time. I thought, among the most beautiful things
<v Speaker 2>about this film. Was it being Tachibana who forgave.
<v Speaker 1>Him and puts the ejection seat in as well correct
<v Speaker 1>a really symbolic I forgive you and I want you
<v Speaker 1>to live.
<v Speaker 2>Correct. But he couldn't get there, He could not get
<v Speaker 2>himself there for years. His anger and hatred and for
<v Speaker 2>all of the cultural reasons we identified or earlier, would
<v Speaker 2>have kept him blocked from processing because he also wouldn't
<v Speaker 2>be able to explain what he went through. And the
<v Speaker 2>betrayal by a superior is enormous. The cultural significance that
<v Speaker 2>Kuichi held over him, And it was him discovering and
<v Speaker 2>not writing him out and not holding him accountable and
<v Speaker 2>radioing in that they had this trader basically in calling
<v Speaker 2>someone to come get his ass. But he let him live,
<v Speaker 2>and then he betrayed. He got betrayed again, and he
<v Speaker 2>got mangled, and all his friends died, while his men
<v Speaker 2>died because he was the NCO, the noncommissioned officer, the
<v Speaker 2>leader of those men, his men, his plan all got
<v Speaker 2>killed because he trusted this officer. That's gone to require
<v Speaker 2>some work. And I think those two getting the opportunity
<v Speaker 2>to come in and sit down and talk and process
<v Speaker 2>that would be the most helpful thing because in reality,
<v Speaker 2>they may not have gotten the moment where he would
<v Speaker 2>have the ability to apply his skill to show forgiveness
<v Speaker 2>by building an ejection seat into an airplane that wouldn't
<v Speaker 2>have had one. But had Kuichi not shown the humility
<v Speaker 2>and the respect and the recognition of how badly he failed,
<v Speaker 2>he may not have done that. But he really took
<v Speaker 2>to heart the speech and he showed thee and he
<v Speaker 2>took the opportunity to say, I am not going to
<v Speaker 2>perpetuate this hurt and these bad feelings, and through sitting
<v Speaker 2>through a great number of debriefings, where in my case
<v Speaker 2>it's police officers who all have a different perspective of
<v Speaker 2>the event that they went through, have the opportunity to
<v Speaker 2>process through each other what each other saw, what each
<v Speaker 2>person saw, what each person went through, what they thought then,
<v Speaker 2>what they think now, what's changed to them as they've
<v Speaker 2>learned more. Because sometimes somebody acts or doesn't act and
<v Speaker 2>holds it against themselves in a profound way, or somebody
<v Speaker 2>else holds it against them because they didn't understand. But
<v Speaker 2>having the opportunity to process that with the other people
<v Speaker 2>that went through the event is a unique opportunity that
<v Speaker 2>cannot exist in any other format, and these two men
<v Speaker 2>share this first exposure to Godzilla in a way that
<v Speaker 2>no one else does. So for me, those two sitting
<v Speaker 2>together in a room and talking about it from that
<v Speaker 2>perspective would be a vital component of healing that if
<v Speaker 2>we could make happen, would be my first and foremost target.
<v Speaker 2>And those are the reasons why.
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think that that makes a lot of sense.
<v Speaker 4>And it really makes me think of the VA and
<v Speaker 4>how poorly supported they are and are currently experiencing a
<v Speaker 4>lot of problems in terms of being able to help
<v Speaker 4>vets unfortunately.
<v Speaker 2>Correct, and especially when you get people that were in
<v Speaker 2>the same conflict, especially even the same unit. Yeah, I
<v Speaker 2>would have had the same experience, so critical. Yeah, that
<v Speaker 2>they get the opportunity to talk to each other in
<v Speaker 2>a place where they feel safe, that's for them, and
<v Speaker 2>these two would need that. Yeah, they would need something
<v Speaker 2>like a VA where it's you know, I could military
<v Speaker 2>people talking them about military things, so that there's the
<v Speaker 2>common cultural understanding. Because though it's clear other Japanese folks
<v Speaker 2>understand the gravity of how bad he messed up, Tachibana
<v Speaker 2>is the symbolism of that, but that's a reality. People fail,
<v Speaker 2>and the failure that you have personally and positionally matters.
<v Speaker 2>Societal failure impacts the degree of wound, and people like
<v Speaker 2>Tachibana below you have less power but still chose to
<v Speaker 2>use grace and not follow orders himself. Like huge, huge opportunity,
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, that's if we decimate the VA, we're not
<v Speaker 2>going to have those opportunities to heal what can be
<v Speaker 2>healed of those things.
<v Speaker 1>Let's take our last break here and be back with
<v Speaker 1>final thoughts. Why don't you have first, Ben, because you're
<v Speaker 1>the only one I think that's already seen the movie
<v Speaker 1>before recording.
<v Speaker 2>This correct, This is one of my picks. Even though
<v Speaker 2>we got lots of requests for it. I've gotten a
<v Speaker 2>lot of requests since the minute it came out. One
<v Speaker 2>of my longtime folks demand did of me, demanded to
<v Speaker 2>He told me you're gonna see it, and you're gonna
<v Speaker 2>do it, and it's just gonna be it. And he
<v Speaker 2>was correct. So I will you know acknowledge that that
<v Speaker 2>he was very right, and I'm glad he was because
<v Speaker 2>this is my favorite movie the past couple of years.
<v Speaker 5>Really, you do love war movies?
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, but why I love this No, but loving
<v Speaker 2>this one has nothing to do with it being a
<v Speaker 2>war movie. This is This is one of the best
<v Speaker 2>written films I think I've seen in quite a while.
<v Speaker 2>I think between this and Everything Everywhere, all at once,
<v Speaker 2>those are my top favorites lately. The tightness of the writing,
<v Speaker 2>the incredible acting, and the way the story all interconnects,
<v Speaker 2>all makes sense, and it connects on all the levels
<v Speaker 2>of humanity. I just think is really unique and not
<v Speaker 2>often done. And we've seen a lot of bullshit that
<v Speaker 2>tries to do this but just meh as the result,
<v Speaker 2>and this wasn't. This was a truly beautiful gem of
<v Speaker 2>a film where we see the offense, we see the
<v Speaker 2>breaking of humanity, We see this situational destruction of identity,
<v Speaker 2>and we see the collective restoration as well as the individual,
<v Speaker 2>and we see it across so many different stories and
<v Speaker 2>the opportunities to grow and heal, and it culturally reclaim
<v Speaker 2>Godzilla from the monster of destruction. It came to what
<v Speaker 2>it was originally created as, which is a symbol of
<v Speaker 2>nuclear destruction and the danger it represents to humanity and
<v Speaker 2>how we must all band together to defeat it. And
<v Speaker 2>this movie comes right back to that, while also tying
<v Speaker 2>it a little more directly to the Sleeping Giant comments
<v Speaker 2>of recognizing that some of this nuclear destruction was brought
<v Speaker 2>on by our own hubris of attacking another country we
<v Speaker 2>didn't need to attack necessarily and getting into a war
<v Speaker 2>caused this kind of damage to our country and now
<v Speaker 2>we need to heal from it. It's a beautiful, beautiful film,
<v Speaker 2>and I am very glad that exists. And do we
<v Speaker 2>did it and go next?
<v Speaker 5>I really liked the movie. I wasn't.
<v Speaker 1>I was thought I would like it because it's gotten
<v Speaker 1>so much positive accolades. And I've never seen a Godzilla
<v Speaker 1>movie except for maybe the one from the nineties, just
<v Speaker 1>because like it's just not my forte Godzilla is just
<v Speaker 1>not really a genre of movie that I watch. So
<v Speaker 1>I would say it was like really pleasantly surprised by
<v Speaker 1>how beautiful this movie was. I thought it was just
<v Speaker 1>gorgeous to look at, and to be honest, like then,
<v Speaker 1>this is probably gonna be sacriligious for me to say it.
<v Speaker 5>I could have done without the Godzilla part.
<v Speaker 1>I think the Godzilla part I get white it is
<v Speaker 1>and it's such like a cultural touchdown, so don't go crazy.
<v Speaker 5>I'm even no.
<v Speaker 2>I didn't need Gozilla for it to be a beautiful movie.
<v Speaker 2>That's what made it work. Yeah, I hate it.
<v Speaker 1>I like just that it was a story that I
<v Speaker 1>think we get a lot of stories of, like Germany
<v Speaker 1>post World War Two and how they societally reckoned with that.
<v Speaker 1>So it was interesting to see the Japanese part of
<v Speaker 1>that story, which I'd never really seen before in this way.
<v Speaker 2>So I thought the movie was beautiful.
<v Speaker 1>It was really interesting to also just watch I don't
<v Speaker 1>watch a lot of Japanese cinema, so it's really interesting
<v Speaker 1>to see like the differences in like acting style and
<v Speaker 1>how they just go about doing stuff. So it's a
<v Speaker 1>beautiful movie. I didn't cry cry, but I definitely choked
<v Speaker 1>up a few times. And it really realized how much
<v Speaker 1>I've heard the Godzilla score be sampled in hip hop music,
<v Speaker 1>because I was like, I know these sounds that I'm
<v Speaker 1>hearing every time Godzilla rises from the ocean.
<v Speaker 2>So I would say, I really like this movie.
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if I'll seek it out again, just
<v Speaker 1>because I'm not a big Godzilla person, but I thought
<v Speaker 1>it was very, very beautiful, and I like the messaging
<v Speaker 1>that I was giving out.
<v Speaker 4>I thought that this movie was fine, that's a new one.
<v Speaker 4>I I enjoyed it as like the action parts in
<v Speaker 4>the beautiful cinematography and the connections between the people that
<v Speaker 4>were working together. Like I thought that everybody did a
<v Speaker 4>really good job acting wise, and I thought it was.
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.
<v Speaker 4>I don't know if I'll rewatch it, not for any
<v Speaker 4>specific reason. I will not say that I will never
<v Speaker 4>watch it again, because I think there is a chance
<v Speaker 4>that I will watch it again, especially after having this
<v Speaker 4>discussion that we had today. But I think that it's
<v Speaker 4>I think that it's good. I'm glad that people found
<v Speaker 4>the connection that they had to it. I think it's
<v Speaker 4>a beautiful way to tell that story.
<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, we will wrap up here as always.
<v Speaker 1>If you would like to find it, you can find
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<v Speaker 1>avoid Godzilla.