AvTalk Episode 300: Our favorite conversations in 2024

AVT 300 Transcript
EPISODE 300
[EPISODE]
[0:00:08] IP: Hello, and welcome to episode 300 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here by myself
today, as Jason is already enjoying his end of year time off. Episode 300. Wow, thank you all for
your incredible support for the past seven years, as we've navigated the ups and downs of the
aviation industry. Episode 300 just happens to fall on the last week of the year, so it's the perfect
time for a clip show. We hope you've had a Merry Christmas and a Happy Hanukkah. We'll be
off entirely next week, and back with our first new episode of the year on January 10th.
This year, we talked with a wide range of industry professionals, and learned about the
challenges facing the industry, as well as successes, and we also had some good old-fashioned
fun. In this first look back, all the way to episode 261, we talked with AIN Media Group Editor-in-
Chief, Matt Thurber, to discuss how the aviation industry is reacting to the rising threat of GPS
spoofing and jamming. Stay with us, we'll be right back.
[CLIP WITH MATT THURBER]
[0:01:13] IP: Welcome back. We're now joined by Matt Thurber, who is the Editor-in-Chief of
AIN Media Group and aviation trade publication. Matt has been writing and researching about
GPS jamming and spoofing for a while now. After last week where we talked about the new map
that we've come out with showing where there's GPS interference and how that affects flight
tracking in FlightRadar24, we wanted to dig deeper and Matt has graciously joined us to talk
about what's happening on the flight deck and what manufacturers and other systems
producers are doing to mitigate these things. Matt, thank you so much for joining us.
[0:01:56] MT: Thank you, Ian. I appreciate being here.
[0:01:58] JR: Thanks for joining, Matt.
[0:01:59] IP: Last week, we talked about how we are measuring GPS interference and the
types of things that we're seeing, whether it's jamming, where we just lose the GPS signal from
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the aircraft coming out with the ADS-B, or whether we're seeing aircraft spoofed and moving to
places, like aircraft that are flying into Tel Aviv, all of a sudden appearing over Beirut, or aircraft
in the Egyptian airspace appearing over Israel and things like that. In your reporting, what are
you seeing? What are some of the hotspots where we're seeing GPS jamming and spoofing?
[0:02:34] MT: Well, definitely over areas where there's a conflict activity that's happening,
basically, all the time. As far as we can see from some of the information that FlightRadar24 is
putting out and others such as gpsjam.org. There's quite a few companies looking at this now
that it's become a hot topic. Also, the Baltic area for some reason, seems to be getting a lot of
attention. It should be noted that these techniques of jamming and spoofing aren't necessarily
something that the so-called bad actors might use, but it could be something that the good guys
use to compromise the signals of the bad guys.
[0:03:23] IP: What we're talking about is really everyone getting in on the act. It seems that
commercial aviation is just collateral damage in conflict activity.
[0:03:35] MT: Exactly. It might even be that nobody's trying to mess up commercial traffic, but
as you said, collateral damage. Part of the problem also is that the technology needed to do
spoofing, essentially, you can buy a fairly simple piece of hardware and download some
software from the internet and off you go.
[0:04:01] JR: Let's go over some of the basics here. What is GPS, or GNSS jamming and how
is it different than spoofing? Which of the two are we seeing more of these days?
[0:04:12] MT: Right. There is a big difference, because jamming requires that you overpower
the GPS signal and that just requires basically, overwhelming it and making it unusable. A lot of
these entities that are showing the maps, it's easy to show the results of jamming, because it
just shows that the signal itself is not reliable.
[0:04:44] JR: GPS jamming, again, isn't exactly a new thing. I think we're seeing it more
widespread now, but I think I remember stories from years ago that aircraft, or pilots reporting
issues with GPS at Newark Airport, because truck drivers driving by on the New Jersey turnpike
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were using GPS denial systems to prevent the companies from tracking them and that impacted
aircraft at Newark. This is years ago. But how is GPS jamming different now than it was 10
years ago, when something like that may have happened?
[0:05:18] MT: It's probably because the equipment is easier to get, but also, we should take
note that jamming is often done, for example, in the United States, the military does it as a
means of testing their own capabilities. They're not shy about causing GPS outages for
hundreds of miles that affect commercial operators. Luckily, there's a pretty good warning
system in place and we get NOTAMs to let us know where it is and what altitudes will be
affected. You're right. It does seem to be more widespread.
[0:05:58] IP: How is spoofing different than jamming?
[0:06:01] MT: Spoofing actually is easier according to experts, because you only have to have a
signal that's the same magnitude as the authentic signal. You don't need to overwhelm it by
having a much more powerful signal. What spoofing does is sends a signal that basically fakes
the navigation equipment on the aircraft into thinking the aircraft is in a different position than it
actually is. The problem is, is that this has the effect of screwing up systems on the aircraft that
rely on knowing the position of the aircraft, and it could result in the aircraft actually being flown
off course by following that spoof signal.
[0:06:59] JR: Spoofing sounds like it is a much more, let’s say, dangerous phenomenon right
now than jamming for sure. It sounds like, jamming, suddenly the aircraft just doesn't have its
position and the pilots have to deal with that. But spoofing, how does that present to pilots? Do
they know there's GPS spoofing, or can they mitigate it, or what happens when spoofing might
be ongoing?
[0:07:20] MT: Yeah. That's one of the problems that a lot of companies are dealing with right
now and trying to figure out the best way to detect what's going on. One of the ways a lot of
people are recommending, well, first of all, pilots need to have a mechanism to be aware of
areas where jamming and spoofing is happening. That's one thing that the FlightRadar24
jamming map can help with and gpsjam.org. There's other companies working on that as well,
like APG just came out with its free Naviguard app that uses not only some geofencing to warn
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people about these areas, but also gives active alerts in-flight and monitors the position of the
aircraft in relation to known good ground navigation aids, so that in the recent history, there's at
least some record of a good known position.
In the air, this is where it gets confusing, but there's a few things that pilots can watch for if their
equipment in the cockpit displays this information. Most modern jets, for example, will show you
Estimated Position Uncertain, or EPU on the cockpit displays. If you see that this is increasing,
some reports will say, wow, it just suddenly jumped to 99 nautical miles, then you know there's a
problem. Another clue is change in the aircraft clock's time. Some reports have said that
suddenly, it changed from a few hours to as much as 12 hours. One of the first mitigations when
this happen, if your airplane allows it is to deselect GPS inputs to your flight management
system, so that you don't keep getting the same bad information.
[0:09:30] IP: Then, so what happens after you've – we're relying on GPS to navigate the
aircraft. We're experiencing either a significant jamming, or spoofing and we've deselected the
GPS inputs. Now what?
[0:09:46] MT: It depends on the aircraft again, but basically, what you need is you need a last
known good position and you need help to navigate from that point. If your aircraft is capable,
most flight management systems are, they can use other navigation inputs to provide a solution.
One of the first solutions is from the inertial reference system, which basically, can give you
fairly accurate navigation for some period of time. Depends on how accurate the whole system
is to start with. But you could navigate on the IRS after that for a while. Then hopefully, you'll get
your GPS back to retain a good position.
Most FMSs also can use ground navigation aids like VORs, VOR-DME, or DME-DME to
establish a good position and navigate. A problem with that is that many countries, including the
US, are decommissioning VORs.
[0:11:03] IP: I was going to say.
[0:11:04] MT: Because they're trying to save money and they figure, well, GPS is great. Let's
just go with that.
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[0:11:10] IP: There was the big push to area navigation and GPS and all of this. Now we're
saying, “Wait, wait, wait. We need those on the ground, because GPS might not be available all
the time.”
[0:11:19] MT: Exactly. The other fallback is if you're in an area with good radar coverage and in
contact with air traffic control, you can simply ask the controllers for vectors. That's what's
happening in a lot of these actual cases.
[0:11:35] IP: We recently filmed a series of videos with Widerøe up in Northern Norway and on
a lot of their flights to Kirkenes, which is, I think, 30 kilometers from the Russian border. Those
flights are often experiencing GPS jamming. They've had to basically, develop a new system
where they just start flying and then when it happens, it's not really if anymore, it's when it
happens, they just let ATC know, “Okay, we lost GPS,” and then ATC starts providing vectors
from there. It's not even an if situation anymore. It's become so prevalent. It's interesting to see
that it's become as simple as just ask ATC. There are some technical mitigations in the works
from avionics manufacturers, are there not?
[0:12:21] MT: Oh, sure. Absolutely. In fact, some of them are way ahead of this game. This is
nothing new. People have been warning us about it for years. Todd Humphrey's GNSS expert at
the University of Texas at Austin's Cockrell School of Engineering did a TED Talk about this 10
years ago, and it's happening. Let's give an example. Universal Avionics, one of the pioneers in
development of flight management systems, I don't know if they did this with the plan for GPS
jamming and spoofing, but they designed their FMS with Coleman filtering that first favors GPS.
When the GPS signals are compromised, it automatically goes to DME scanning, or
triangulation.
The FAA technical standard order for that, they got that in 1991. They've been working on it for a
while. In response to customer concerns about this, they issued a service letter to their
customers, explaining what it does and how the FMS is getting its good position. Now with the
latest software update to their FMS, it shows a banner message if GNSS is not reliable and if it's
switched to DME-DME. That's a good example of a really proactive manufacturer.
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[0:14:00] JR: That almost sounds like reverse MLAT, where sites like FlightRadar24 would use
MLAT, which is basically, triangulation of the aircraft using multiple ADS-B stations to figure out
where is the airplane. In this case, are you saying that the airplane is using multiple ground-
based stations to figure out where it is and then sends that back out over ADS-B?
[0:14:23] MT: Well, no. It's not sending it back out. It's using that for its own flight management
system. It's not sharing it outside the aircraft.
[0:14:32] IP: Sadly, it's not sharing it out. I mean, we've actually had to fall back. I mean, one of
the things that we're doing is falling back on MLAT, because it doesn't matter where the signal is
coming from, as long as we're getting the signal to enough receivers, we can calculate the
position of the aircraft. It would be great if the aircraft shared that signal back out with us.
[0:14:51] MT: Well, that's a really good point. Nobody I've talked to suggested that. That's
something interesting. I checked with Collins Aerospace, Talas, Safran, Honeywell, and they're
all well aware of this. If they don't have a solution right now, some of them do. Some of them are
working for with other solutions. Another interesting factor is that most avionics manufacturers
will allow the air framer to modify the avionics for their particular platform. An example of this is
that Dassault set up the Honeywell avionics in its easy equipped business jets, so that when
they're using the inertial reference system inputs, it's not combined in a hybrid fashion with the
GPS, so the IRS is not impacted by GPS spoofing, which is also a good example of looking
ahead and dealing with this issue.
There's other more advanced technologies coming around. There's one company called
Advanced Navigation and developing artificial neural network processing for their filtering to
detect and mitigate false GNSS signals. There's another company called Sandbox AQ, which is
developing a whole new position, navigation and timing solution using artificial intelligence,
quantum sensors, and the Earth's magnetic field, believe it or not.
[0:16:41] JR: Wow.
[0:16:41] IP: Okay.
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[0:16:43] MT: One other interesting area of development, and I think this is going to be big,
especially with UAVs and advanced air mobility, is image-based navigation where –
[0:16:55] IP: I was going to ask about this.
[0:16:57] MT: Yup, it's coming and there's been a lot of testing and it's definitely something that I
think we'll see more. In fact, Universal Avionics has done a lot of research in this as well.
[0:17:09] IP: Basically, what we're talking about is using Google Earth to reference check your
position. I think I'm here. Does this look the same to me with my cameras as it does on Google
Earth?
[0:17:23] MT: Exactly. Big challenge is what sensors can you use to look through fog, or rain, or
clouds, or whatever, because it's not always a clear day out there.
[0:17:36] JR: I'd be real interested to hear how that works at night at 42,000 feet.
[0:17:41] MT: Right, exactly. I think it has a lot of potential. Then another interesting idea is last
week, I got a demo of SpaceX's Starlink Aviation Satcom, which works pretty well, by the way. I
asked the SpaceX guys on the flight. I said, “Well, couldn't you use a low Earth satellite network,
like Starlink for position navigation and timing?” They said, “Sure. Absolutely.” I guarantee you,
they're doing some research on it.
[0:18:17] JR: Interesting. I think that goes back to the point where something like Starlink, or
other Leo networks would probably have a much stronger, harder to, let's say, override signal
than GPS, which if you've ever done some research into GPS, you'd be shocked at how low
gain the signal is. It's barely there. It's a miracle that it actually works at all, but it doesn't take
much to interfere with the GPS signal, whereas, something like the frequencies that Starlink, or
other Leo networks would use is a lot harder to override. Is that basically the thought there?
[0:18:50] MT: Yeah. Leo is a lot closer to the Earth. I don't know what the signal strength is, but
I'm pretty sure it's a lot more than GPS, which is thousands and thousands of miles up.
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[0:19:03] JR: It sounds like, right now, while the industry figures out its next high-tech, artificial
intelligence, synthetic vision solution to this problem, the solution right now in here and now is
let's fall back to the tried and true, possibly analog, VOR, DME, and even the old IRS systems,
which the last time I think I even looked at something like that was back in the day, American
767s were famous for appearing all over the map in places they shouldn't have been, because
they didn't have GPS. They had IRS systems, and those definitely did stray quite a bit from
where the aircraft actually was over time. It's unbelievable that something like that is making its
way back in. It’s not a GPS replacement, but certainly an augmentation now.
[0:19:52] MT: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's incumbent on pilots, especially, to be educated about
what's going on, what the risks are, how to mitigate them. Also, a lot of the time, you're not flying
in the clouds, especially if you're up in the higher altitudes. You can see a lot of geographic
features, and maybe it's time to take a little more interest in what's outside the window, because
you can see if you're off course in a lot of cases. Obviously, it's a gross measurement, but I think
that it's just one part of the picture of keeping informed about your situation.
[0:20:36] IP: Yeah. It's a very interesting thing to be dealing with after such promise of how GPS
was going to revolutionize navigation and did. But because of how it's built, we end up with
some very interesting problems that seem to be spreading as we look at where jamming and
spoofing are taking place.
Matt Thurber is the Editor-in-Chief of AIN Media Group, an aviation industry publication. His
excellent article, which we'll put in the show notes about GPS jamming and spoofing and how
different organizations are working to mitigate that is on AIN online. Matt, thank you so much for
taking the time to join us.
[0:21:17] MT: Absolutely. I really appreciate being invited, and if I can close with one small piece
of advice, this was from one of the engineers I spoke to at one of the major business jet OEMs.
He said, “Look, there's one place you can fall back, and that is, buy yourself a portable multi-
constellation receiver that connects to your tablet computer. Even though it's completely
advisory, you're not allowed to use it for navigation, use it to monitor your position.” Because if
one network is being spoofed, or jammed, sometimes another constellation will continue
working, and that might help you keep track of where you are.
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[0:22:05] IP: Absolutely. It's funny to me, because I had a chat with a pilot not too long ago, and
he pulled out his little – I mean, they are little now, GPS receiver, and stuck it on the dash, and
plugged it into his iPad and said, “Look, this is where we are, versus where the aircraft is saying
we are, and now they match, and that could be different later on.” I was like, okay, this is an
interesting way to mitigate the situation. It's fascinating to see how this continues to develop.
Matt, thanks again so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
[0:22:38] JR: Thanks, Matt.
[END OF CLIP]
[0:22:38] IP: In this next piece, Chris Lomas sat down with Airbus A321 XLR Head of Program,
Gary O'Donnell, on the occasion of EASA certification of the aircraft. Gary has been with the
XLR since its inception, and we learn what it takes to get an aircraft from the drawing board to
the skies.
[CLIP WITH CHRIS LOMAS AND GARY O’DONNELL]
[0:23:01] CL: Gary, first of all, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to us. It's been really
interesting to hear more about the XLR and your experience of leading that program. You're
ahead of the A321XLR program. Firstly, tell me a little bit about what that looks like day to day.
What do you actually do?
[0:23:17] GO: Okay. Yeah. And thanks for the interview. My role really spans everything from
the initial spec of the aircraft and the supporting the sales, right through to developing the
aircraft, developing the industrial system, which is the factories, the jigs, the tools and
supporting the team to develop the entry into service, the customer support areas. Then at the
end of the day, I have to make sure that the engineering drawings are delivered to the
production sites. The production sites have the means and the tools to build the aircraft and all
the components. At the end, to be able to get that certified and deliver it to the customers in a
good way. Really, it's the full 360 span of everything that's needed to develop a program.
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[0:24:03] CL: Great. What does the certification and the entry to service the XLR mean to you
personally, having seen that journey from start to finish?
[0:24:11] GO: For me, I've been in a very lucky position, because I started the development of
the XLR right from day zero. Right from the initial question, if we could do something with the
321 to make it fly longer. After, for me, six years, because we did a study for a year before we
launched it. Six years of my life, I've seen everything from the initial ideas right through to
having this aircraft certified. Along the way, and the bit that really motivates me is every week,
every meeting, working with teams from all over the world to face difficulties, find solutions to
the problems and have the little wins every week.
The big milestones, like first flight certification, first delivery are very, very important to me and
the business. To be honest, I get more joy and motivation from our dealings every single week
with all those people, engineering suppliers, industrial certification, everybody, customer
support. It's a huge, huge milestone. It's the end of a long journey. It's bittersweet. You're
finishing those great relationships and great discussions. On the other side, you've got the
sense of accomplishment of something huge that you've really taken an aircraft development
from zero to delivery.
[0:25:28] CL: Absolutely. You mentioned there some of the difficulties you faced. We’re really
interested to hear about some of those. What were some of the challenges that you come
across in this process, particularly in terms of, first of all, of achieving the certification and then
perhaps, going forward to entry to service?
[0:25:43] GO: Yeah. When we launched the aircraft in 2018, we had spent a lot of time looking
at all the previous developments that Airbus has done and looked around the way the industry
worked. We took a very proactive view on how we launched the aircraft in terms of, we had
some strong values around collaboration with everyone who needed to be involved. That
needed some sharing overall transparency, including really early engagement with the
authorities and making sure the team were quite balanced, well-being, mental health, physical
health.
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We used the project to instill a lot of strong values in the way we work, which was fortunate,
because not so long after that, we had COVID. We developed this aircraft through COVID. From
one week to the next, the team disappeared back to their homes, right across the globe. We
had to operate for some months in that mode, before we could get our offices into a way to
accommodate the teams safely back in different groups at different times. That was completely
unforeseen, of course. But trying to develop an aircraft and not slow down so much during that
period was very, very interesting.
Then midway through our development, we had a change in strategy from the certification
authorities, the airworthiness authorities, both in America with the FAA and EASA. We had to
pivot, whilst we had aircraft in the fall flight test ready to take off. We had to really pivot and
understand how do we now completely adapt, keeping our collaboration transparency and the
willingness to make sure we do the right thing and absorb that. Then we had the war in Ukraine,
which had a big impact to a lot of our businesses, a lot of the factories could be built, several
factories as part of the XLR. We had a huge amount of jigs and tools which are made of steel.
The supply chain got hugely disrupted. I think we've been tested numerous times on this
project, and I think it's a testament to how the team came together at the start with the values
and this closeness and this openness that we were able to ride over the top of some of those
things with huge support from our very senior management to keep the XLR moving. Any
aircraft development is tough. You face a numerous technical issues that you have to manage
every day. But then, with the XLR, we had those global issues on top, which we’re putting extra
pressure on our back. I think to be at the situation where we're now certified is a huge, huge
testament to the way the teams work, as well as their technical skill.
[0:28:21] CL: Absolutely. Interesting to hear how those supply chain issues don't just affect the
components that go into the aircraft, but the components that build the aircraft as well. Really
interesting perspective. Of course, to hear that you're probably, I think, the only manufacturer
from start to finish there, who's developed a design throughout the pandemic. Really interesting
to hear. The aircraft's now certified. We're mere probably weeks away from the first flight with
Iberia, which we're very excited about. What will you and the team be focusing on in that time
and run up to the first flight?
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[0:28:52] GO: I've got four key objectives in the way I manage the project. The first one is we
have to make sure that everything is fully certified. We have the certification, the type
certification of the aircraft behind us, but we still have a lot of customization mods for that the
airline need. We have other aspects that we need to certify, a lot of detail parts after the type
certification before EIS. We still have the certification. In front of us, we have of course, the Pratt
certification, which comes towards the end of the year.
Depth and cert and engineering is still a very strong activity that we need to continue to polish.
The second workstream is making sure that all of the industrial activities are finalized, which
means that all the little lessons, all the little fixes, which are not affecting the aircraft, but affects
the efficiency of the production system, we have to fix those and seal them in documentation
and make sure that the process runs smoothly.
Then the third part, which is maybe the biggest part for entry into service is making sure all of
the customer documents are there, the flight manuals, the repair manuals, etc., etc. We have
thousands of those documents to make sure we transfer to the airline. Then the fourth one, for
me, the first delivery to Iberia is a big event, but I've got hundreds of aircraft to build. I've got a
number of factories that I need to finish in order to ramp up. The biggest challenge for me is the
ramp up.
And making sure that all of the engineering learning is done, that all of the manufacturing
processes are very mature, that all of the customer documents for all of those future airlines are
ready, and then we need to keep the machine moving. The EIS is a big event, but it probably
takes 20% of my focus today, because everything else for the future ramp up and the success
of all those extra airlines is still a huge amount of work.
[0:30:47] CL: You're always looking for the next step. You're always planning two, or three steps
ahead.
[0:30:52] GO: At least, yeah. My job is to really, number one, enable and support the team to do
the job today. But mostly, to look and anticipate the next year, the next two years to make sure
that anything that could go wrong, we test it in a test center today, and that could be building
physical mock-ups of new things that are coming to make sure that they're very, very mature
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and the operators, the production operators have the chance to play with it before we drop it into
the main shop floor. Always looking forward.
[0:31:22] CL: Just then, actually a question, whilst I think of it on the documentation side of
things, you mentioned there's thousands of these documents. First of all, interesting, what are
those documents actually contain? I know there's a lot there, but what are the really important
things? Are they mostly digital, or do we still have to legally provide a lot of paper documents
actually?
[0:31:42] GO: They're all digital from our side. Then it really depends on the airline what they
want to receive. Some do take paper. We do work with a lot of paper, and it's one of our ongoing
workloads to make sure that we convert everything to digital. It's not so much the being able to
create it digitally, it's already happened for years. It's been able to embed it in an airline,
because those documents, if you think maintenance manuals are one of the key documents,
which basically, like with a car, or anything you buy, any product you buy, you get your
instructions of use. The maintenance and the operations manuals are very important.
We then have the most technical specialist manuals, like the structured repair manual. If an
airline has a problem in service, there needs to be clean documentation of what you can and
cannot do. Of course, we support this from our base to make sure that we can support those
discussions. There's flight ops manuals, there's the operation of the aircraft from the pilot's
perspective. Every single thing that you can consider to run an airline is documented, including
the crews, etc., etc.
Yeah, we have to make sure that for each one of those changes, for each one of those
documents, we run a complete set of tests, or dry runs of simulations to make sure whenever
we release those manuals and then base our training on those manuals that everything works
smoothly. It's a huge, huge document chain.
[0:33:06] CL: What kind of simulations are we talking about there, in terms of, I guess,
preparing for every eventuality when the aircraft is in service? Can you give an example of what
do those simulations might look like and how you run that?
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[0:33:17] GO: If I give a good example of the maintenance manuals. In order to have a
maintenance manual of something that's fresh on the XLR, like the rear center tank, or a
different access area, we have to give the maintenance crews direction on the right tool to use,
and we need to make sure that those tools are capable of being easily accessible to the
fastener, or the part that we're trying to fix. We need to make sure that the weights of the parts
are not too heavy for the maintenance teams to be able to handle and lift and position.
What we do for that, we have a lot of 3D simulations, augmented reality, virtual reality that we
use in our test areas to make sure that before we have built the aircraft, virtually, we can go
through the ergonomics, the human factors of how to fix the aircraft, so that before we design it,
we know it can be maintained. Those simulations are very, very important before we freeze our
design to make sure that in service for 20, 30, 40, 50 years, that the maintenance crews can still
operate comfortably to do the job.
[0:34:20] CL: Fantastic. Having to think about the, now more on the passenger side of things,
we're talking about putting a bunch of people on an A321 and flying them long haul, on an
airframe which has just traditionally been used for a short to medium-haul routes. Do you think
passengers are going to notice any difference being on that aircraft for that length of time?
[0:34:40] GO: I think, one of the main differences, I think, people will see, I get the pleasure of
working with most of our airlines, if not all, on the layout that they're putting in the cabin. When
you walk onto a normal single-aisle aircraft, you're expecting to see a pretty standard single-
class layout for most people, and you know what you're getting. Whenever we look at the
majority of the airlines that we have show the XLR to, and you see some videos online of
American Airlines from what they're offering, and we can see the same for Iberia, our first
customer, they're going to see a very nice business class, premium economy class, and the
economy class that they are used to today, even the same economy class they see on a
330neo.
The one thing we can't do in developing a single-aisle aircraft is by definition, we can't put two
aisles in it. We can't have a wide body with two aisles. The one main difference is compared to
a 330, it's a single aisle. In terms of thermal comfort, the comfort the passengers will see, it's the
same as we have on a 330. In terms of the seat, when you're actually sitting in your seat,
© 2024 AvTalk 14
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economy, premium economy, or business, it's the same as you're going to see sitting on a 330.
You'll just have less people beside you.
In terms of the services that the airlines are planning to offer, it's very similar to a 330. This is a
baby 330, and it's the big sister of a 321LR. We're really servicing that gap, that transition for
airlines, so they can go from a single-aisle seamlessly up and touch a 330. On one side, we
don't want the passenger experience to be significantly different than another long-range Airbus
aircraft. On the other side, because it's a single-aisle, they'll notice those premium situations on
a single-aisle aircraft.
[0:36:29] CL: That homogeny between the 330 is really interesting. Essentially, you look at it as,
as you said, the biggest sister of the LR and the baby A330. I think that's a great way of putting
it, in terms of the passenger experience. Finally, the XLR is frequently tipped as a game-
changer in terms of long-range, narrowbody capability. What impacts do you think the XLR will
actually have in practice on the market in the short to mid-term?
[0:37:01] GO: For me, as the program manager, I see the XLR as a machine that can be used
by airlines for transporting people. That's really my objective. What we've tried to do in
designing that aircraft is to make it as flexible as possible. I think we'll get three, maybe three
different types of use. We'll get the airlines who are growing new routes, and they're going to try
routes into places that are long-range, that maybe a 321LR cannot reach, but maybe so far,
they're not fully confident that they have the passenger volume to go for a 330, or a 350. They're
able to take these long-range routes on an XLR and then have the test, have the growth for
bigger volumes in the future.
I think, for me, this is one area, and this is going to be very, very big for the XLR. We see a lot of
the airlines we're talking to in different regions of the world are talking about opening up routes
into areas that they simply cannot fly today, because they can't justify it. This is one area. The
second area, I think, will be for some airlines, they'll have the flexibility of a long-range aircraft
that in the winter can fly skiing, or can fly to specific areas. In the summer, they can pivot and fly
to hotter climates. This flexibility of being able to fly different routes in different seasons is also a
big area.
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Then you have then, really, and it's about flexibility again, I'm going to say the same word. It's
about airlines who know their routes, but they can fly the XLR on a two, on a four-hour journey,
or they can fly it on a 11-hour journey. They have a machine that really can stretch short-range,
as we do today, right up to long-range. Having that machine in your fleet gives you a lot of
confidence and a lot of support that it can stand in, where something else can't operate, it can
stand in, but in itself it can be a real strong workhorse with multiple turnarounds per day.
[0:38:55] CL: Great. Really flexible products overall. Well, Gary, it's been fantastic to talk to you.
I think we're all really excited to see the aircraft into service, which we're eagerly anticipating
with Iberia very soon. It's been fantastic to talk to you. Gary O'Donnell, Head of the H321 XLR
Programme. Thanks for speaking to us.
[0:39:15] GO: Thank you, Chris.
[END OF CLIP]
[0:39:16] IP: Finally, and perhaps the most fun we've had all year with a guest, Max Colmer of
Airplane Facts with Max joined me for a conversation and a little game.
[CLIP WITH MAX COMER]
[0:39:28] IP: As promised, we are here with a fascinating and incredible conversation, one that I
am so excited to have. Welcome to the AvTalk Podcast, Max from Airplane Facts with Max.
[0:39:42] MC: Hello. Happy to be here.
[0:39:44] IP: Thank you so much for coming on the show. You did a pre-interview with my wife,
just a moment ago, because she's the one who found your videos first and showed me and got
me hooked. She's like, “You're really going to like this.” It's true. I do really like this. We played a
little clip before this conversation to prime everybody. For those that don't watch your stuff on a
regular basis, can you describe what it is you're doing?
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[0:40:12] MC: Yeah. It's a weird thing to try to describe, but I'm an aircraft mechanic. I make
videos called Airplane Facts with Max. I basically compare and contrast the world of aviation
maintenance and the world of JRR Tolkien. I try to clarify some of the glaring differences
between airplanes and Lord of the Rings, because people get confused sometimes. They look
at an airplane and be, “Is that from Lord of the Rings?” It's actually not.
[0:40:40] IP: There are so many things that I thought were from the Lord of the Rings that are
just in fact, parts of an airplane.
[0:40:46] MC: Yeah.
[0:40:46] IP: I had no idea.
[0:40:48] MC: Yeah. I talk about how different parts, or components of aircraft and then I talk
about Lord of the Rings. That's what I do, I guess.
[0:40:57] IP: How? Just how did this get started? I mean, there's no through line in my mind that
goes, this is what somebody should do. Yet, and yet, it is incredibly compelling.
[0:41:08] MC: Yeah. I started making videos about two years ago. I've been an aircraft
mechanic for quite some time. I was at a low point in my life and my wife had recently passed
away. A few months after that, I found myself at work and I was on Instagram and I posted a
story to my page, and I just was like, this is an airplane tire and it's different than the tire on your
car, because it's on an airplane and not a car. People were like, “Oh.” My friends were like,
“That's really funny.” I was making little stories like that just to my friends and they thought they
were funny.
Then, one day I uploaded those to TikTok and it just took off on its own from there, because
people are like, this is really funny, right? I guess. Then, I was rereading Lord of the Rings and
getting back into Tolkien and I was like, I wonder if I could make one of my little airplane facts
about Lord of the Rings, but how could I do that? I started looking at the airplane, because I love
Lord of the Rings, obviously. I was looking at the engine and I saw the fan blades, and I was
© 2024 AvTalk 17
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like, “Blades. Fan blades, sword blades. I could talk about that.” Then it just became its own
thing. After that first Lord of the Rings one, I thought – I was like, “There's no way I could keep
doing Lord of the Rings ones.” Then I kept coming up with more ideas and it just spiraled from
there.
[0:42:27] IP: How do you keep coming up with new ideas? Are you looking at the airplane first
and then going, “Okay, this is how I can do this”? Or is there a scene in one of the books and
you're like, “Okay, I've got it”?
[0:42:39] MC: I've come up with a way of thinking about it. Usually, I'm at work and I only make
really two to four videos a month maybe, and they're only a minute long. I'm not putting out
videos that often, because it takes me time to think of something. I'll look at the airplane and I
think like, “What's Lord of the Rings here?” Or, I'll see a video online and then I'll be like, “Okay, I
could talk about that.” I had a video that I did recently that really got a lot of views on it and it
was about speed tape. People –
[0:43:08] IP: Everyone loves to freak out that there's duct tape on their airplane.
[0:43:13] MC: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's one of those things that as an aviation maintenance
professional, I was like, that's not duct tape. It's not holding anything together. Then, I'm making
the video and I noticed that the part tape was the strake on the engine cowling. I was like,
“Okay, well, what's the strake do, right? It helps redirect airflow over the wings to increase lift
and I was like, redirect.” Then I think, “Oh, Eric Gordon redirected Sauron's forces in Return of
the King when he showed himself in the Palantir,” right? That's how that comes about in my
head, I guess.
[0:43:45] IP: That's the idea process. This is where I am most in awe of these videos. How do
you shoot the video? Do you write a script and then work it all out, or is this just something
where you pick up the camera and you're like, “All right, I've got an idea. Let's go.”
[0:43:59] MC: It's the second. It's, I have an idea. Let's go, right? I usually film the videos when
I'm on my lunch break, or on break time, because I don't want anybody else in the background. I
don't obviously don't want the planes to be moving, or functional at the time. During lunch
© 2024 AvTalk 18
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everybody's going to eat their food and I can just walk out there and take a little quick video on
the plane. I think about what I'm going to say before, so I have an idea of the video that I'm
going to make. Then I'm like, “All right. Well, let's go do it real fast.” It's just a quick one minute,
one-and-a-half-minute video. That doesn't take long. I don't edit them or anything.
[0:44:35] IP: I mean, but that's the crazy part to me is that you don't edit them, because it's not
a paragraph. It's a page of information. Every time I watch, I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, how
do you get all that out? I mean, is it just whatever I get out in a take is what I get, or do you give
yourself some leeway to do another take?
[0:44:55] MC: Oh, I give myself leeway to do another take. Yeah.
[0:44:57] IP: Oh, okay. Good, good.
[0:44:58] MC: It usually takes me a couple before I get out without stumbling, or mumbling. It's
a gift I didn't really realize I had, I guess, until I started doing it. Then when I first started, if you
went back to my older videos, they're only 20, or 30 seconds long. I learned. It's evolved over
the years where I can – I like to get more in depth on the aircraft. I used to do my segue. I used
to be like, right away, this is a part of an airplane. Then I just do the Lord of the Rings tangent.
Then as it's grown, I'd have made it 50% airplane and 50% Lord of the Rings. That way, I
realized, I'm actually able to teach people about some of these components that are on aircraft,
as well as teach people about Lord of the Rings. Who doesn't like learning about both of those
things? They're wonderful.
[0:45:45] IP: I mean, I've been just along for the ride. I mean, I know more about the airplane
stuff probably than most viewers, but I know much less about the Tolkien stuff than most.
Maybe. I don't know. But I don't know very much. It's been interesting to follow along and be
like, “Okay. I don't necessarily see how they can – Oh, they're different, but –”
[0:46:03] MC: They're different. They are different.
[0:46:05] IP: I'm learning. I'm learning. But it's been a lot of fun.
© 2024 AvTalk 19
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[0:46:09] MC: I think in aviation, especially as mechanics, we don't get a lot of representation in
the field as a profession. Not a lot of people think about aircraft maintenance, unless their flight's
getting delayed. Most people don't know what goes into maintaining aircraft. I think that there's a
fascination with aviation maintenance and the mechanical side of flying that a lot of people don't
get to see very often. I really enjoy being able to share that in that side of the industry.
[0:46:38] IP: Other than having well over a million followers across multiple social media
platforms, what's been the reaction from people? Is it more, “Yay, I'm learning about airplanes”?
“Hey, this is really cool. You're talking about Tolkien.” Or is it just, “I very much enjoy these
videos. I find them interesting”?
[0:46:58] MC: It's been a mix of all three. It's really interesting. There's people that follow me
and they'll comment and they'll be like, “I don't care about airplanes at all, but I love Lord of the
Rings.” Then there's people like, “I don't care about this Lord of the Rings stuff, but I love
airplanes.” For some reason, they both like the way that I deliver stuff. Then there's people that
are like, “I don't like airplanes or Lord of the Rings. But for some reason, I really like watching
your videos.”
[0:47:23] IP: Great.
[0:47:23] MC: It's in that. The one thing that's really surprised me, because I've been doing this
for about two years now, is that the reaction that I've received personally is been
overwhelmingly positive for the most part. I remember when my first video started going viral
and I was like, “Oh, no. Here comes the trolls.” Not the trolls that the fellowship encountered in
Moria after they went into the Chamber of Mazarbul, which was the records chamber that they
found Balin’s tomb in. But more the trolls that you see in Internet comments. They never really
showed up. People have been really positive the whole time.
[0:47:57] IP: That's fantastic. I mean, I've often said that aviation's in my experience, been one
of the places where the community is rather tight knit. I assume that the Tolkien community is
probably very similar. I guess, I'm not totally surprised that the reception's been overwhelmingly
positive.
© 2024 AvTalk 20
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[0:48:19] MC: Yeah. It's been so much fun to do. I've learned to really enjoy making the videos.
For me, it's low stress. With some weeks, I'm like, “Yeah, I don't feel like –” I didn't make a video
last week. I didn't feel like it. I don't really have a content plan, or strategy. I'm just posting when
I feel like posting something, when I have an idea. It's low stress and really fun. It's become a
fun, creative outlet for me.
[0:48:42] IP: What do your co-workers think?
[0:48:44] MC: The older guys usually have no idea that I do it. They don't care. They're like, “I
don't know what Lord of the Rings is.” Some people, the most of them, they think it's pretty cool.
They're like, “This is awesome, dude.” I don't know. I think most people think it's pretty fun. It
was really funny. One of the days I was working and one of the guys was like, “What are you
reading?” I was like, “Oh, Lord of the Rings.” He's like, “Oh. I think my wife really likes that.
Every time I walk by the TV, they're doing inappropriate stuff on the TV.” I was like, “I think
you're thinking of Game of Thrones, man.” Anyways, sorry.
[0:49:20] IP: That's, I mean, probably not the case. Yeah, it's a different show. Different movies.
[0:49:25] MC: Yeah. I think the reception there has been pretty good, too. It's fun to do.
[0:49:30] IP: Is there any place you want to take this, or is it just something that, hey, this is fun.
I'm enjoying this. Don't mess with the good thing.
[0:49:38] MC: It's mostly, I'm just having fun and enjoying it I don't really have any – I don't
know where I would take it. I don't know. What do you do? I didn't set out to be like, I want to
build a social media presence. I just thought it was fun. I just thought it was fun.
[0:49:57] IP: I’m going to make some videos about aircraft facts.
[0:50:02] MC: Yeah, the reception and the growth of it has been mind-boggling to me. I really
never expected anybody to watch any of these videos.
[0:50:11] IP: Yet, here you are, millions of views later.
© 2024 AvTalk 21
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[0:50:15] MC: Yeah. Yeah. There's been fun things that I got to do with it as a result of the
account. I don't take that for granted. I got to go to ComicCon for the Rings of Power Season
Two events. I've met some people that are musicians that I really look up to, and I've gotten to
hang out with them at their shows and stuff. That's been really cool and a fun, unexpected
journey, if you will, that's come about from this thing.
[0:50:45] IP: As someone who partially has the job, the reason I'm talking to you now is
because I made a map of where you could smell chocolate from a factory in Chicago. I totally
understand. It makes perfect sense to me why people are finding these videos and enjoying
them. Have you seen a particular, have the reaction, so-called reaction videos where somebody
sends something in and then you talk about that? Have people found that more engaging? Or is
it just across the board? Some videos are heavy hitters and then others, not so much?
[0:51:22] MC: It's random. I don't know how the algorithm works. I can't figure it out. I have
noticed that a lot of times, the ones where I stitch a video in after somebody's seeing tape, or
something like that go off a little bit higher. Or there was one where somebody's sitting next to a
broken window reveal on the airplane. I'm like, that's not a window.
[0:51:40] IP: Right. Right. Right.
[0:51:42] MC: Those ones seem to do really well. I think some of the reason is it takes you all
over the place. But I think that I try to, in those videos, like with the window and the speed tape
one, I'm trying to – I'm hoping that what I can do is ensure to people that these are safe defects.
You know what I mean? None of this is jeopardizing safety of flight.
[0:52:05] IP: Well, they look kind of scary. They're cosmetic.
[0:52:08] MC: Yeah. Yeah. I totally get why somebody would see a mechanic putting tape on
the engine mig. Why is he putting tape on this? You're like, “Well, we can talk about that.”
[0:52:16] IP: So many reasons.
© 2024 AvTalk 22
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[0:52:18] MC: Yeah. So many reasons. Do you want your flight to have a four-hour delay
because you're waiting for sealant to cure, or do you want us to just throw some speed tape on
it?
[0:52:26] IP: I'm all for speed tape, any day of the week.
[0:52:29] MC: Or like, sometimes people are like, “Oh, you shouldn't be flying a plane with that
much tape on the wing.” I'm like, “Okay. Do you want to wait for the plane to be repainted, or do
you want us to put some speed tape on it? Cause the painting is going to take a while and
you're in a class three maintenance station. There's no reason.”
[0:52:45] IP: Switching over from just the videos, but as a mechanic, is there a favorite plane
that you really love to work on, or a not favorite plane?
[0:52:54] MC: I have two answers. One of them is a joke answer and one of them is as a more
real answer. I always tell people my favorite plane is the Q400, the Bombardier Q400.
[0:53:03] IP: Okay.
[0:53:05] MC: My least favorite plane to work on is also the Bombardier Q400. It's the first plane
I ever worked on and it's very maintenance not-friendly. It's not friendly to mechanics. A lot of
things on it are hard to work on, and it's sometimes – but since it's the first one I ever worked
on, I was like, “Oh, this is just how planes are.” I didn't know any different. Then as I've grown in
my career and started working on different fleet types, I'm like, “Oh, that thing sucks to work on.”
I do. I have so much respect for the Q400. I think my favorite plane to work on is probably the
777-200.
[0:53:42] IP: Why the 200, specifically?
[0:53:44] MC: I haven't worked on the 300 very often. I do heavy maintenance, do heavy
checks, and the 300 is just so much bigger that there's a lot more to do. Changing the landing
gear on a 300 is a little bit more involved than changing the landing gear on a 200. I really like
the 200. It works really well.
© 2024 AvTalk 23
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[0:54:03] IP: Cool.
[0:54:05] MC: The 300 is a little bit – the engines are a little bit too big. I'm like, “This is
ridiculous.”
[0:54:10] IP: They're only getting bigger.
[0:54:12] MC: Yeah, it's really cool. I like it. I'm just like, “Man, I don't want to climb up four
flights of stairs just to get to the top of the engine pylons. It’s wild, dude.”
[0:54:21] IP: It's a four-story building just to get to the top of the engine. Yeah. I guess, when
you think about it like that.
[0:54:26] MC: The 777, it's a pretty good plane to work on that. I've really enjoyed the 777.
[0:54:31] IP: Before I let you go. I thought we could play a game.
[0:54:34] MC: Yeah.
[0:54:35] IP: I'm going to name an airplane part.
[0:54:37] MC: Okay.
[0:54:38] IP: I want to see how that relate, and we can go into as much, or a little detail as you
want, but I want to see if I can put you on the spot, how it compares and contrasts to Lord of the
Rings.
[0:54:49] MC: All right. Let's try.
[0:54:51] IP: All right. The APU.
© 2024 AvTalk 24
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[0:54:54] MC: The APU, Auxiliary Power Unit. That is what can provide electrical power and
pneumatic power on the ground to start, or stop the engines, which is a little bit different than
the starting of the events in the war of the ring that are kicked off after Frodo leaves The Shire
and begins his journey through the old forest, where he meets Tom Bombadil and has to cross
through the Barrowdowns before reaching the Town of Brie, where he would encounter Strider.
Then they would venture across the Midgewater Marsh eventually, until Frodo got stabbed on
Weathertop by one of the Nazgul. How's that?
[0:55:28] IP: Incredible. Because I, again, not rehearsed, not scripted, just off the cuff. I mean,
awesome. How about the flight data recorder?
[0:55:39] MC: A flight data recorder. Okay. The flight data recorder is also known as the black
box, which is what records inputs from the flights. That is different than maybe the records that
were kept in Minas Tirith that Gandalf, who was also known in Gondor's Mithrandir would go
through when he was scouring for Isildur’s count of the ring after he left The Shire for 17 years.
[0:56:04] IP: Perfect. Perfect. You want to do one more?
[0:56:06] MC: Yeah. This is fun.
[0:56:08] IP: All right. Let's go, flaps.
[0:56:11] MC: Flaps. The flaps high lift device, trailing edge of the wings. They're used to
increase lift, especially during phases of flight, like takeoff and landing. They're different than the
flapping of the wings of the Great Eagles, which were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar Manwë,
who would rescue Gandalf from the peak of Orthanc after he was imprisoned by Sauron
carrying him to Rohan, where he would meet with King Theoden and take the horse Shadowfax
to head north.
[0:56:39] IP: Perfect. Love it. Max, you are not just an airplane mechanic. You are not just a
Tolkien fan, but you've got some other projects that you work on. Tell us, where people can find
Airplane Facts with Max, and some of the other stuff you're doing.
© 2024 AvTalk 25
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[0:56:55] MC: Yeah, Airplane Facts with Max. I have a TikTok, I have a Instagram. You can find
me there. I'm also, sometimes I stream games on Twitch when I have some free time after my
kids are asleep. You might see me streaming on Twitch sometimes. Again, that's Airplane Facts
with Max there. Then I write and record music under my name, Max Comer. You can find that on
Spotify, or Apple Music, or wherever you listen to music, really. It's not about Lord of the Rings,
or airplanes.
[0:57:23] IP: I was listening to some of the stuff before we chatted, and I was enjoying it. I was
like, “Oh, wait. We need to get ready to go now.” We'll put links to all of Max's stuff in the show
notes. We've been chatting with Max Comer from Airplane Facts with Max, an airline mechanic
with an encyclopedic knowledge of Tolkien's works, and just an all-around fascinating human
being to chat with. Max, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[END OF CLIP]
[0:57:49] IP: Thank you all so very much for listening. We're excited to bring you even more
great guests, news, analysis, and industry insight in the coming year, including one very special
guest, not too far in the future. For Jason, myself, and everyone at FlightRadar24, thank you
and happy tracking.
[END]
© 2024 AvTalk 26